The Hockey PDOcast - Breaking Down the Biggest Trades From Draft Week

Episode Date: June 28, 2025

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Steve Peters to break down the big JJ Peterka trade between Utah and Buffalo, the fits for both sides, and what the draft is like for teams on the inside. Then Harman Dayal comes on the show to discuss Noah Dobson going to the Canadiens, the John Gibson trade saga finally coming to a merciful end, the smart bet the Senators made, and other moves we've seen during draft weekend. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

since 2015. It's the Hockey Pediocast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the Hockey Pediocast. My name's Dimitri Philipovich and joining me here at the conclusion of Draft Weekend, talk trades. It's my good buddy, Steve Peters. Pidi, what's going on, man? I just want to check in with you, Dmitri.

Is the first round over yet? No, it's still going. I think they're going to finish by the start of the season. Oh, my God. Was that ridiculous? Like, this whole thing's got to change. That's not. It doesn't work.

Yeah, we're not even going to waste our time on it. I think they've already done plenty of that on their part. I'm going to save all the draft raids and breakdowns of the picks made this weekend to the experts who have been putting in the work all year and even before that, watching these guys and logging all that tape study. One thing I think we can do is talk about some of the trades, the draft weekend bestowed upon us. You know, day one of the draft on Friday, certainly once the draft got going, I think didn't live up to the hype

in terms of some of the expectations hitting in of fireworks and movement, especially in the top five or top 10, we didn't see that. But the days leading up to in particular, I thought we saw some moves of pretty high magnitude, and one of them is right up your alley involving the Utah Hockey Club now,

the Utah Mademoth. I think I'm still going to keep calling the hockey club heading into next season. I'll think on that a bit this off season. But regardless, they made the JJ Partierka trade on Wednesday evening, I believe. even how you and I were texting right when it happened. I was so eager to talk about this trade with you.

I was almost thinking, should I just scrap my plans entirely and just do an emergency episode because I've got so much that I want to unpack here, showed some self-restraight. They wanted us to do a post-draft two-hour show, so we're going to break down that and a number of other trades over the course of today's two-part episode. But we got here. I'm glad I had the self-restraint because I really had some time to dig into the tape,

look at the numbers, give this some thought from both sides. So we're going to start with the Utah side of the Petraca trade. Once we cover all our bases there, we'll get to the Buffalo side. I think there's a lot of moving parts and intriguing aspects of it for both clubs. But let's start with Petirka to Utah and kind of your first impressions because I think both you and I and speaking to people leading up to this draft, expected Utah to be very active. They had cap space. They had resources in terms of young players. They've drafted picks coming on the way and a pretty clear need in terms of adding some more firepower that fits in this age 22 to 25, let's say, window that can play

immediately contribute and grow even further alongside Cooley and Gunther and Keller and those guys, especially with Nick Schmaltz having just one year left on his deal. And so they went out, they got Paterka. He was certainly near the top of the list. I thought they'd explore either Laferiori was under contract or some of the RFAs like a Will Cooley or Matthew Nyes, and they still might. We'll see they have a lot of 2026 picks available to them, but they go to Petirkerra out. What were your thoughts on that being the direction they chose, the price they paid,

and kind of getting into the fit of what you're going to see from him stepping into this Utah top six. I think for Utah front, one of the biggest needs, they needed somebody that can score some goals. I mean, they had 520 plus goal scores on this team, but they didn't have any depth scoring. And they finished 21st in goals four per game in the National Hockey League last year. and this is a team that is pushing, you know, all accounts by ownership and management, they want to make the playoffs. I don't know if that's realistic. That's for another show.

But for this, they needed to find some offense. And I think with J.J. Petrka, I think he fits kind of the mold of what they're looking for out front in that he's 23. So he's fitting in there with Kooley and Gunther and where they're going with their young skill speed type player. He's got a really good motor. And this kid does play two ways. Now, I know he needs to work on his defending, but he cares. And he works hard in the defensive zone. He's not lazy in the defense.

Someone just needs some work. So I think from the Utah perspective, they needed a guy that can help score goals. And they needed more skill. And so I think he checks those boxes. I will say this, though. I was surprised. I thought Petrca was going to end up somewhere in the east.

And I thought Utah was going to try to create more through free agency. And to your point, maybe they still will. Because I know there's some names that they're very interested. And we talk about that later too. But for right now, I think Petirca fits. He's young. He's fast. score goals. He's got the skill that they need in Utah. And he fits for a long-term future with

Kooli and Gunther. He does. And he also comes with a 7.7 extension over five years, which encompasses his really is peak seasons, right, age 24 to 28. He turns 24 this season. It gives them Gunther, Keller, and Petrka signed for a combined 22 million over the next three seasons. And But Tricker really broke out officially last season, right? He finishes with the 68 points, but you look a little deeper, and I feel like he has been one of the most effective 5-15 offensive players and producers in the league for the past two years now. He'd been dating back to the year prior. 83, 5-15 points the past two seasons is tied for 27th most with Clayton Keller, Jake Gensel,

Kyle Connor, some pretty good wingers there. And then his 41, 5-15 goals in that time, is 14th most. and that sandwich between Cole Cofield and Jason Roberts and to kind of give you an idea in terms of where he is as a scorer among some of the premier wingers in the league. Now, that profile doesn't come without red flags, right? I'm going to put a pin in the defensive conversation because I want to get more into that in a second,

just focusing strictly on the offense. He shots nearly 16% last season. The Sabres, I think, more importantly, converted 14.2% of their 5-on-5 shots into goals with him on the ice. Now, that was the highest rate of any player in the league last year, year that played 500 plus minutes. And so I do think his particular skill set and brand of offense in terms of not only the skill, but how much he creates off the rush.

And I imagine that was a big part of the appeal here from a fit perspective for Utah is going to generally create more efficient shots and goals, right? Because we know those are the most dangerous opportunities. The defense and goal are more vulnerable. And you're probably going to out shoot your expectation. I wouldn't necessarily say that he's a shoe in or a bet to repeat that. next year we're moving forward in terms of just being the most efficient offensive player in the league i think some of that is certainly um a byproduct of some good fortune along the way in buffalo

itself especially with their top guys out there was really good offensively a five-on-five last year that was not one of their concerns but that'll be something i'd kind of earmark in terms of seeing how that develops right because he's going to step into a good spot i'd expect him to keep producing the way he has um but in terms of what he actually is the true talent player how good this guy is, I do think that's an important piece of the context here. Yeah, and I talk about, you're talking about his ability to score off the rush and off transition. And one thing, Andre Turney has always wanted to see, as most teams do in the league now, is they

want to play fast. They want to get the puck up the ice quickly. And you see, if you watch his goals from last season or his great scoring opportunities, most of them start between the blue lines and their ability to either come off transition or off of a good breakout play. And you look at the defense that he had in Buffalo, you know, with Owen Power and Dahlene. And this is Bobbi. them and guys that can move the puck.

I think Utah can too. I think with, you know, Surgachev back there and Dersie and Marine on, even only Mata, they do have defensemen that can get the puck up the ice pretty quickly. So I do think that's part of it's going to fall into his game, that I do think this is a team that's really going to try to generate off the rush with speed. And we've seen with Utah specifically their ability to generate five on five

once they're in the zone. And I think with Keller and Schmalt specifically, they're a high cycle group. They like to go out to the blue line do these little fancy little draw passes. They're not a group that can get to the net. And I'm concerned with Peturka. Again, we talk about the small forwards

that the Utah hockey club has in their top six. They're still lacking that guy that can drive to the net. I'm not saying Petrca can't get there. He has and he gets there with skill. He's not going camping out in the blue paint. This is the guy that's not getting there and driving the lane and trying to wreak havoc in the paint

and get in front of the goal. tender. So I still think that's one of the concerns for Utah because he's just another one of these small forwards and put Cooley in that and put Gunther in that. He's got a good shot. I think he and Gunther both can shoot the puck, but I still think in their top six, they're lacking a guy. I know Hayton can get there when that's a, yeah, they still need somebody that can help get to the net so he can get players like Peturca and, and Gunther the puck. I completely agree with that. I will say what we saw from from Gunther's the year progressed last year and kind of scaling it ahead. And same with Cal Cooley, who I thought really

took a big stride in this regard in year or two. There's a certain level of doggedness and competitiveness there that I think they're probably hoping is going to drag out of Peturca as well. And I think that's going to combat some of some of that size in terms of just getting into some of those interior areas. I'm with you. I think, you know, he's a legitimate offensive driver. Corey Schneider's tracking has him last year in the 91st percentile on rush shots, 86. percentile in a rush offense and he's a menace in that area. I put out a mix on YouTube of some of his best plays last year and some of the stuff he created and pretty much the entirety of it was a turnover in the neutral zone or someone making a play and then all of a sudden

it's just all systems go. You pin your ears back and you just tack downhill and you're right. Utah's going to want to play some of that warp speed hockey, especially in the top six, right? Kind of creating and cooking off the rush. It's interesting because they were already playing that way to an extent last year. I think Cory Schneider's same data set that we're going to reference a bunch here, had them leading the league in shots created off the rush on a permanent basis, yet Sport Logic had them 12th in actual scoring chances off the rush, right? And so I think the hope here is that a talented player like this is going to be able to step in

and you're going to get those opportunities to attack in transition. But hopefully this will turn more of those shots into actual grade A's and high-danger opportunities they're going to convert on more and squeeze more offensive juice out of that orange. I think what also helps here in doing so is I thought Peturka took a big stride last year as a playmaker. He really beefed up his passing. He was much more of a pure shooter previously. And now kind of pairing that with that shooting talent, I think goes a long way.

As assists obviously jumped up from 22 to 41. He added eight primary assists, but even under the hood, like he jumped up to 88th percentile in scoring chances set up 93rd percentile and high danger passes. And so that's an interesting combination, especially we're going to talk more about the fit in terms of who he'll play with and the idea of paring him up with Cooley and Gunther.

And then all of a sudden now having that much shooting talent and guys who can get those shooters, the puck is, I think, a very interesting proposition here for Utah and part of the logic in terms of targeting this type of a specific player. Yeah, it's funny because one of the things you just brought up is making that line. combinations and I've sat in those coaches rooms year after year and at this time of year,

you pick up a player like JJ Petirka and you go, okay, just on paper. And you go, you put them up on the board and you go, gosh, Logan Cooley, Gunther and Petirca, we can put these guys together. They can play for the next five years. We'll lock Cooley up to a long term contract. This is our top line when we when we have the parade in downtown Utah. And then what happens is you put them on the ice in the first day of training camp. And two or three days later, gosh, it doesn't work. Well, what this combination we thought was it and we've planned on it for three months and then all of a sudden it doesn't click. Not saying that that's what's going to happen to Utah. My point is this is where this is going with coaches right now. They're thinking what Keller, Keller has played

so well with Smolton Hayton. That's our line. We kind of have two first lines, no real first line. And I think those young kids together bring some excitement. They play with speed. They can both shoot out. Gunther and Petrkerker can both shoot off the rush. Cooley can deliver the puck. I mean, this kid can do it all. I mean, I'm telling you, this Logan Cooley kid's a player and his ability to distribute the puck to those two players and his ability to pay off. Like you said, he plays a little sandpaper for a smaller guy. So I do think that that's the line. If I was throwing the lines together today and preparing for training camp,

I want to see these three kids together because you're looking at three young guys under 23 that can all provide some skill. And you could throw them out, I think in most situations, because I think Gunther has become more defensive responsible. responsible and coolly they've worked on it for two seasons now trying to get him to be a better defensive player so i'd like to see those three young guys develop something that we can see last over a few seasons and that's where you get the chemistry that's where you get the success and that's where if you can put them out on the power play again then you're just rolling those lines it makes it much easier to manage on the bench yeah to your point 365 minutes of keller schmaltz and hayden at 515 last year 59% of the shots 63% of the high nature chances up 1811 on the scoreboard

And they've really been effective to even dating back to the Arizona years, right, the last season in particular when they put those guys and Hayden started reaching some of his potential. And I think that enables them to entertain going that route. And the reason why I like it is to that point you just made where I really feel like Kooley's development off the puck in year or two in terms of his pursuit and the range and how competitive he was allows them to kind of insulate some of these guys a little bit more, especially at Peturka, in terms of how much ground Kooley's going to be able to cover. and that allowed them then to kind of get the most out of them while also covering up some of the weaknesses. My last point on the playmaking, I think some of them for Petrca was a development born out of necessity, right?

Because he played so much with Tage Thompson. And in going through the Paturka tape, I tweeted this, but the thing that really stuck out to me beyond how beautiful some of the goals were, was just what a freak and what a singular force Tage Thompson was last year. If I won five, and he was just all over it,

and Patirka was playing the role. of setting him up. Now, there's a glass half full over his glass half empty sort of view here, right? Because on the one hand, you look at the splits for Petirco with and without Thompson, and it doesn't paint the prettiest picture in terms of who was the driver there and, you know, how responsible he was for the success that line had. Some of it is certainly sort of symbiotic, right, where I think the skill sets get the most out of the guys.

And then all of Buffalo's sort of issues lower in the lineup, I think, making a bit unfair to view a player when he's playing with those guys as opposed to with Thompson. And the reason why it wouldn't be a big concern for me is because, all right, you're going from having success with Tage Thompson. He was one of the better players in the league last year. Well, the drop-off going to playing potentially with Gunther and Kooley is not going to be that big of a drop-off, if any at all. And so I imagine he's going to be able to replicate a lot of that success. And I'd be very interested. I'm sure they're going to experiment with a lot of different lines.

And we're going to mix and match. We even saw that from Montre tourney last year, right, in terms of trying to find the right combinations and moving guys around to spark them when they go through little laws offensively. But those three guys together, just from a stylistic fit and skill set perspective, would be the thing that inspires the most just excitement

and optimism for me heading into next season. Yeah, and the marketing guys at Utah are like, oh my gosh, yeah, let's put those guys together. Imagine how much fun that would be every time they step on the ice, the fans would be all in. But you're right, he's got to help produce. news. And the goal scoring for Utah, we talked about their ability of their top five.

I mean, it's Keller, Kuli, Schmaltz, and Gunther are their goal scores for the Utah hockey club. Oh, God, I did it. I got them the hockey club again. And so you're going to have to get Petrka with those guys that can score the goals. And you talk about Tage Thompson. It's funny when you talk about statistics where guys are getting a lot of assists. And you have to give credit to the guys that are scoring the goals.

And it's funny. It's not just Petrka. Look at Mitch Marner. I'm saying the same thing. Great numbers. but he's passing the puck to Matthews. So can Peturka continue that success as a playmaker if he's giving the puck to Cooley and Gunther? Can they do the things that Tate Thompson did?

I think they can. I think Dylan Gunther is a special player. I think his ability to be goalies clean from the top of the circle. He's one of the elite shooters in this league right now that people just don't see enough of so they don't know that. But I wouldn't be surprised to your point. Like Andre, he's going to get him out there with Keller too because Keller needs a puck. and Keller is a guy that demands the puck. Nick Schmaltz has been great at getting him the puck,

but to your point, Nick Schmaltz's contract's almost done. I think the magic of Schmaltz Keller is coming to an end in Utah, and they're going to need somebody else to find, they can play on a wing with Keller and get him the puck, and maybe that is JJ. So I do think you're going to see him bounce around a little bit in training camp to see where that best production is in that top six.

I think that is your top six in Utah today. It might be the top six in Utah a week from now, but it is today. And I think you're going to see those guys and you're going to see that combination mix around a lot as Andre finds the best combination offensively. I don't really have an answer for why a player this skilled doesn't translate into being a good power play player yet

in terms of what Petrka's been so far in his career. Other than rush players and guys who create so much of their offenses proportionally through that, there's just fewer rush opportunities on the power play, right? It's more against the said defense. You're in zone. You're moving the puck. And so maybe some of those avenues and pass ways just aren't available to you, but Buffalo's offense, like at 515 last year, they were one of

the most. I think they were third in the league and 515 goals. And that top line was a big reason why they were 23rd on the power plan, the special teams really did them in. Now, you mentioned Petrück on the power plan, potentially playing those three guys together and then allowing them to translate it with demand advantage. I don't think that's necessarily an issue for Utah the way they're constructed because you already look at what they have in place personnel-wise and you've got Gunther at the left circle with his absolute bomb emerging as well. one of the premier goal scorers from that office. And then you got Keller on the right circle in a one-time spot.

Now, they finished 10th in the league by season's end in power play goals per 60. I felt throughout the year that they were much more talented than even that. And the stretch run kind of bore that out, right? Once they got healthy, once all those guys got more reps playing together from four nations on, and that's a 26 game sample, they were fourth on power, on the power play in goals per 60 behind only Colorado, New Jersey, and Vegas. And so that might not seem like much, but going from top 10 to top five is a pretty big leap in terms of efficiency and just squeezing out as much offense as you can out of your team. And so Peturka might not honestly even factor into that.

I know that he was used as the trigger man from the right circle a lot in Buffalo. And he certainly got the, you look at the actual individual skills, right, whether it's the one time release from that spot or the creativity and vision to hit the guy backdoor if the offense is. if the defense is really fixated on you or passing it into the slot, he did some of that stuff, not nearly enough. And I'm not even sure he's going to get the opportunity to do that full time in Utah, because of the guys they already have ahead of them that are pretty established there. So if you're talking about a relatively pure 5-1-5 score without much power play contribution, that's not necessarily as big of an issue for Utah as it might have been for another team acquiring

Brederica and expecting him to step into that spot for them. Yeah, and I think specifically on the Utah PowerPlay right now, like Clayton Keller's got that right circle covered. I mean, he's the guy. He's your captain. He's the guy you know who can score there. He got 10 power play goals last season. Gunther had 12.

But Peturka had six. And so for me with Utah, they're going to have a one-two punch on their power play. I think last year, when you go back two years to last year in Arizona, you looked at Lawson. Krause was a guy that was getting power play goals. And you could put out their second power play. And Machelli and Krause had some chemistry. and they were able to score on the secondary power play.

They didn't have that last year. They didn't have that secondary power play that they felt could help add offense when the top line wasn't clicking. But I do think with Petirka out there, now you have some options. And I think you're looking at a one, two power play mix that you can throw some pretty darn good players. And, you know, Dersie's on the second power play,

not the first power play. Surgich has run in the first power play, and you've got a really good puck mover up top. And Schmaltz gets the puck through across the Golden Road, and the Royal Road. They're strong on the power play. And again, part of the problem with Utah is nobody sees them. And it's a team you just don't get to follow and get to watch.

Their power play, as you said, that's a really, if you get a top 10 power play in the National Hockey League, that's a good power play. So I do think Petrka is getting power play time. It's just going to be with the second group. And I think their second group is going to be dangerous. And I think they're going to have the luxury of having a one-two punch with the man advantage that's going to help them get timely scoring that

they just couldn't get with that second group. group last year. On the defense front, just to bring this this home, he was fourth percentile in even strength defense impact over the past three years. And I think some of that is a byproduct of being such a rush heavy player, right? You're just hunting up the ice. Chances are if you don't convert or you lose the puck, it's going to result in a counteroperative for other team. And I think we see that that sometimes these rush players have pretty poor defensive metrics coming back the other way. I do think you mentioned you didn't think he was lazy. And going through the tape, I did think a lot of it was effort. And I think that applies to most NHLers, right? Some guys certainly have

either reach or instincts that allow them to anticipate plays and they're just going to be in a higher stratosphere defensively than some of their peers. For most guys, though, to get to a certain threshold, it just comes down to applying yourself an effort off the puck and being willing to expend all the energy you have in your tank for that one shift to put your team in a better position so that you're not leaving the ice with them hemmed in their own zone. And I do think that's an area he certainly stands to grow. And this is probably going to be a good spot for him to do so, right, considering the point of his career he's in,

but also the fact that we know that Andre Turney is not going to stand for that in terms of what he asks from his players. And we've already seen some of these guys take strides there under him since coming to this club. And so Utah was a team that was top 10 in slot shots and inner slot shots allowed and time spent in their D zone and all that stuff. you're looking for defensively, and I think he's going to need to be better there. They're probably going to be able to get that out of him.

But that does remain a question mark in terms of becoming a more well-rounded player that you're paying $7.7 million. And so I think that's what I'm going to really want to see from him next year, beyond, obviously, all the highlight real stuff and skills with the puck. Yeah, and you have to look at the two different franchises too right now. And the Buffalo Sabres are 30th and goals against per game. And it's a team that really dropped off in the second half. And I don't want to say, yeah, they were looking at.

losing. It's hard to play for a team that's losing all the time. And I think the defensive expectations in Utah are different. I will say this. I've had problems with the way Utah defends in their defensive system, the way Andre Turney played a very aggressive style that at times can be hard to play for defensemen that don't fit in that style of play. Now they have defensemen that can move. So I think they do defend better. And Karelva Melka, they put a lot on him as he became more consistent this year. But there is an expectation to defend there. And you have to do a good job defending. And he's done it. He's done it with Clayton Keller, turn him into a 200-foot player. We talked about Gunther and his responsibility. Cooley really took a stride between

years one and two and his ability to defend. But Turca is going to have to defend if he's going to play in Utah. It's going to be part of the recipe to him getting on the ice. And so I do do think it's going to have to be important for that top six, anyone in that top six in Utah that's going to have to be able to defend. And part of that is moving quickly. They pursue puck's incredibly quickly in Utah. And sometimes it leaves issues in front of the net. But for Peturke, he's going to have to, he's going to have to buy in. And you're going to have to be a guy that can defend because that group does, I tell

you what, they play as a unit. They play as a group. They play as a group of 20. And even Keller, who is their leader and their leading score, he's still just one of the cogs in the wheel. And I think that's what the Peturka expectation is. He's going to be a glamorous player that can get up and down the ice and he can help score goals, but he's just going to have to play that, that group mentality that they have

Utah. Yeah, on that tape from last year, not a lot of clips of high effort backchecks. I'll leave it at that. See, I saw that, Dimitri. At times, I saw it. It was there.

But I think that is, Dimitri, I think those are those rush players, if they have an opportunity to get the puck, if they're close enough to pursue the puck and create that turnover to get the offensive side of it, then I think it's there. Then I think there's three steps are there trying to pursue that puck.

You're right. One, he's out of it. It's a different player. But if he can get the puck, I think he wants the puck. I'm very curious to see what's coming next for Utah, right? Because you look ahead and even after this move and the extension, if they're able to get off of the last year of Machelli's deal

and it seems like he's certainly, especially you're adding another high profile winger like this, probably out of their plans based on usage last year. And even Valabaki's $2 million, all of a sudden you start playing with north of $20 million again in cap space. And I think a lot of people expected them to sincerely entertain using the fourth overall pick to do so. I certainly did.

They wound up coming up to the podium on Friday, or I guess doing it virtually, and taking Caleb Denwaye. And I think the appeal for them of this being the likely the last time you're picking this high, and you got lucky to have that pick to begin with after winning the lottery, adding a center to the system that's as well-rounded as he is, and just what a winner he is.

And I think people love him, in the industry, I imagine the appeal of that and the pull to add that guy to your core was too intriguing ultimately, although I do think they explored a variety of trades using that pick, but they still have a bunch of assets. They really only have McBain as their RFA. They have Schmaltz and Carrfoot coming off the books next year, and that's nearly $9 million. A lot of that's going to go to Kooley's extension at some point this offseason. But with the six picks in the first three rounds of 2026, offer sheets are still very available to them. And I'm very curious to see whether they take another big swing either on the free agent market if a guy like Marchand makes it there or with an RFA because I think despite having all these young forwards, they probably still want to add at least one more guy to the middle six in particular to really kind of fill this group out.

And this is funny because you see this franchise as they demand. Let's face it, there's still the Arizona coyotes, their expansion, but they're not. This is the first time that this franchise has had the checkbook open saying make it's better. and Ryan Smith is adamant. Like, let's make a splash. Let's do something. So I think all eyes are kind of on Utah and what are they going to do with a manager that has picks and assets where he can be aggressive and they've got an owner that wants to

be financially aggressive. So it's a great storm for Utah fans to look at this and go, okay, we're going to add somebody. The problem is getting, and this isn't a knock on the city of Salt Lake. So I want to preface it with that. This is an unknown market.

I don't think guys know what Salt Lake City is yet. I don't know if. Mitch Marner, Brad Marchand, you know, I don't know if they know what Utah is. I don't know if, if this is a great market to play in. I don't know if it's an ownership and management group that's trying to win. I don't know if they've defined themselves enough yet to be that big free agent destination. Now, no, the one thing people can talk about taxes, no taxes. The number one thing for agents are looking for is money, period. That's first. Second is winning. And how do they take care of my family and how all of these things factor in, but it's money. And Utah has it.

They have the space and they have the money. So they're going to be able to get creative and they're going to have some really good offers. You've seen them associated with the Brad Marchand offers because they got money. And boy, money talks for a guy that's getting older in his career and has the opportunity to make a little bit more money. So yeah, Utah is going to be a heavy player. Now, will they succeed? I think they're going to swing. I think they're going to try.

And to your point, offer sheets are going to get interesting because this bill doesn't, Bill wants a better team. Bill Armstrong wants to build a better team. And if that's the route and you have to overpay a little bit to get the guy that can really help long term. And the RFA guys are the guys that can do that. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Utah getting involved in that. And I think they're going to take some big swings. The symbolism of this deal. And you mentioned that there, at least tangentially, is not lost on me, right?

Being the team that not only buys but then pays the highly sought after player after years and years of being on the other side of that. And I think in doing so, this is mostly tongue in cheek, but trading out a don to accommodate it is a sign that they're turning over a leave here. I think as an entirely different organization. I think there's a ton of reason to be excited. I think they've jumped up to like 14th or something in terms of best Stanley Cup odds heading into 2026. And I imagine it's going to keep going up as soon as we start seeing this team hit the ice next season and play games. So I'm very excited about them. We covered them a ton on the PDO cast this season.

And I imagine, I don't know if it's possible. But we're going to try to bump that up even more heading into next year based on at least how good this looks on paper. All right, Pedy, let's take our break here. And then we come back. We're going to jump right back into it. I got a lot of notes from the Buffalo side of this deal. And I want to ask you a few more questions tapping into your expertise on the team side about the draft and draft weekend and all that good stuff. You're listening to the Hockey Ocast streaming on the Sports Night Radio Network.

All right. We're back here on the Hockey Ocast joined by Steve Peters. We're talking about the J.J. Petterka trade from earlier this week. and we covered the Utah angle to the deal at great length. Let's get into the Buffalo perspective. And here, I want to start with this, because once this trade was announced and it broke on Twitter

and everyone started reacting to it, the return was predictably panned, right? I think partly because it is the Buffalo Sabres. And when you miss the playoffs for 14 straight years, you earn that at least to an extent. And I don't think they get a lot of benefit of doubt from people based on their track record. Now, I think part of it was because I suspect a lot of people

just really didn't watch the Utah Hockey Club last year. And that angle of it, I have less time for. And in particular, when it comes to Michael Kesselring, who I've spoken about a bunch this season on my show, I have all the time in the world for him. I think he's a terrific player. And you look at the profile in particular, a 26-year-old right-shot defenseman,

who's 6-4 moves the way he does, has a certain level of, I think, even further untapped offensive potential to his game, just because of how he carries himself and how aggressive he can be in a bigger role. And then on top of that, making only $1.4 million for this season. Like that put it all together. And that is a genuinely awesome asset that I think people were really underselling

in analysis of this deal. And so I wanted to start off with that because I think there's going to be reasons to dump on Buffalo here, in particular why they went this route compared to some of the alternatives. But just looking at the players they actually wound up getting, I do really like the fit. And I think Kesselring specifically is an awesome get for the same. I tell you what, this kid has exceeded expectations in Utah from what they, when he was part of the Nick Bukes said trade sending him to Edmonton, I don't want to say it was a throw in, but he was just a piece of that puzzle to get Bukestead off the books and move forward.

But Kessering has been outstanding. Like this kid, I tell you why, I don't know if they knew what they had. And knowing Bill Armstrong, he did because Bill does all of his homework. He's a six foot five young kid that can skate. pretty darn well for a kid of his size, but his offensive upsides is huge. Like his ability, one,

he's going to keep pucks in in the zone. He's going to pinch deep in the offensive zone and he's on the blue line. He's not afraid to come in and try to keep the pucks in. Then he's going to be active off the blue line, the offensive zone. He's going to carry the puck. He's going to try to beat players one and one.

He's going to get the puck to the net. Another guy that's got a really good shot. It's not that big clapper from the back end. He's got this wrist shot that's really powerful that can find spaces in the net. And he's going to score goals in the National Hockey League as a defenseman. You got seven goals last season, and I think his defending is getting better. And I know that was a knock at times in Utah, his ability to defend the rush or his defensive zone coverage reads. I will say this.

For a defenseman under 25 in the national hockey, when you're learning to play defense, it's easier to be a forward. Jump over the boards to go play. As a defenseman, it's harder. You're defending big, strong players that have been in a league a long time, and it takes a long time to learn those reads. the rush reads and also in the defensive zone. But I do think he's getting better. He's got an incredible reach at 6-5. I think he defends the rush pretty well.

And now there are times that he will get beat, but everybody gets beat. He's going to push guys to the outside because he can skate well enough. He's got a long reach. In the defensive zone, I think he is going to get into his size over the next few years.

I think he's going to be a bigger, stronger, tougher defensemen than people are giving him credit for. Buffalo does know what they have. This is a guy on the right-hand side. Now, now, Beau Byron, becomes expendable for the Buffalo Sabres. I think Kelsa Ring, they've got them, I see him with own power. And you put them with all in power, this is a tandem that can provide offense that can defend.

I think he, I know J.J. Paterka is the best player in this trade. But Kelsing is not far off. He's the top four defenseman in the National Hockey League and he's a young player that's going to get better over time. I think he's going to be a guy that when Buffalo Allset is done at the end of the year, they're going to go, wow, this kid, when he's got the puck, exciting things, can happen. So I really like this pickup by the Buffalo Sabres. And I know they're underwhelmed right now, but you got to see this kid play. Yeah, I've given a lot of thought to how he's going to fit in Buffalo and who he'd play with. I think there's certainly the natural initial inclination is the idea of

this Twin Towers look with him in power and how that would work together. And I think they'll try that. I do think stylistically probably makes more sense next to Rosmast Dahlene because he's got a bit of an interesting profile in terms of the puck on his stick, right? Because he, for as skilled as he is, I don't think he necessarily excelled as the primary guy for breaking the puck out. But as soon as the puck does get out of the zone and it's between the blue lines or heading into the offensive zone, there's very few defensemen like him who can turn on the jets and activate and get into that spot and then contribute it at least be part of that rush attack. And so Dahlian is just so good as being the primary facilitator there. And so I think that would take a lot off his plate and that would be a really fascinating look.

But, you know, he's got this tremendous underlying profile in terms of all of his impacts and his numbers under 160 games. So I think there's a bit of a projection here involved. And there's also a long list of examples from the past 10 years of the NHL of these types of defensemen, right? Where there's a lot of individual talent and skills, yet they're played in a certain role, especially down the lineup and kind of managing their minutes. And then teams get excited by it. we as analysts get excited about it, they go to a new spot, they get thrust into a bigger role, and then they start drowning. And we've seen guys, like, I think Colin Miller really comes to mind in terms of someone I was very excited about looking at his underlying profile and how big

and talented he was. And then he goes to a variety of spots. They use him in big roles, Buffalo being one of them, and all of a sudden he's not the same player he was. I think what would inspire confidence that Kesselring is more than that, and you're very familiar with this. Utah had a lot of injuries on the blue line last year, and there was a stretch in particular with Marino out long term, where Andre Turney was using him with Mikhail Sergachev and giving him a ton of minutes. And they look great in that time to my eye. And the numbers back that up as well. I think they were like 56% shot share, 58% high danger chance share in those minutes together. And so he's going to be thrust in that spot here in Buffalo. He's going to play top four with either of those guys in a much more

significant role. And I'm excited for him because I love his game. And I think it's a big loss for Utah. yet usage speaks in this league. And I thought the writing was on the wall a little bit and why I kept mentioning him this offseason because once they got the full health, his usage fell to sixth among all their defensemen. They've got Sergachev, Derzy, and Marino signed long term. They extended Mada for three years.

They brought back Egan Cole for another season. They've got Demetri Simebachev, who they took sixth overall and has one of the best first names in the world coming as well. And then they want to carve out a spot long. term from Mav Lamarro as well after his 11 game taster last year. And so there's a lot of players there, a log jam. And so I thought, you know, he was kind of a just a casualty of the numbers game, but that's going to be a win for Buffalo. And I'm very excited to see him in this new opportunity.

So I think he's an awesome ad. And I think Josh Stone as well, right? A 23-year-old played his first full season last year was used in kind of this third line role with with McBain and Krause, another guy with terrific underlying numbers and lower usage. But he's a dog, clearly when you watch him play. I think he's got a lot of buck winning ability. He has the HL scoring chops to back up the idea that there's middle six scoring upside here at HL level and he's going to be a nice stylistic fit for Buffalo because they've been very worried about having too many undersized guys and guys who have one particular defined skill set and Josh Stone is not that. And so it gives them another layer to complement that. And I think

both guys are going to be very useful and get much more opportunity in Buffalo than they got in Utah last year. Yeah, I think with Josh Dome, too. He's another guy that you talked about size. And he's a guy that he grew up. He was an undersized player. So he had to learn to play the game differently. When he was 10, 12, 14, he was young, he was small and not like his dad. So we had to learn to be able to be quick on the puck. He had to be able to get to the right area so he didn't get himself in situations where he either lost the puck or got hurt. And then he grew into his body. And now he's a big kid. And he plays he plays with a little bit of an edge. And the one thing about Josh Joan, he's not J.J. Paterka.

he's not going up and down the ice going one on two through two defense. I'm not. That's not his style of game. But what he's going to do right is everything else. When Josh Stone, you watch him play, and this is for hockey nerds, watch him play. He does the right thing. If he's supposed to dump the puck, he dumps the puck. If he's supposed to be the third forward high in the zone, he's the third forward high.

If he's supposed to back check through the middle, he back checks through the middle. He does things right. And coaches love him because he plays that way. And teammates love him because he just works hard. and he's happy every day to be there. He's the guy you want in the locker room. I'm telling you, this is another big acquisition. Again, I don't know what he's going to put up numbers-wise

in a consistent role in the national hockey. Can he score 20 goals in this league? I think he can. I think he's got the ability to because he's not afraid to get to the blue paint and he can get in situations where he can find himself the ability to score. But even if he doesn't do that, he's going to be an important player for a team that's trying to move forward because he does do the things right.

He can defend. You can put him out there to block shots and get in the line. lanes and you can get him out there to win those 50, 50 battles along the wall. I think he's a very versatile player that is going to give a different flavor to the Buffalo Sabres. And when you see his work ethic and his commitment, I don't know how you don't root for the kid. And I think to your point earlier about getting the Don name out of this, the Utah, Arizona franchise, honestly, I think it's good for the kid and I think it's good for

the franchise. I mean, his dad's, it's a hard shadow to grow up underneath and be a part of. I think he now can spread his wing and he's his own guy now. And I'm expecting a great, great season from him, but it might not show up in the numbers. It might not be a guy that's getting 20 goals. He might get 12 goals, 14 goals. And you're going, okay, that was a great season for Josh Stone because you need guys to fill roles if you're going to have a successful hockey team.

Yeah, side, I mean, Buffalo has drafted so many of this one particular type of player over the past however many years. And Zach Benson is really one of the only guys that bucks that trend. And I feel like getting another guy like that and don't is going to be valuable for them. I forgot to mention this during my Kesselring monologue, but in going back through his tape, the one game that really actually stands out to me was this game, ironically, of all places, in Buffalo against the Sabres last year. He winds up with a Gordy Howe Atrick, and he was just asserting himself all over the ice. And so I imagine they were watching that, and they were like, hmm, let's,

let's keep an eye on this moving forward. It's funny how that works. You know, I mentioned some of my issues with the analysis of the deal and kind of the way people framed it. I think one that is much more justified and fair is the alternatives or the route Buffalo chose to go here, right? Because Paturka was certainly in high demand. There were at least a handful of teams that I think were very hot on acquiring a services and would have paid a premium to do so. We certainly learned from Michael Russo that the Wild were one of them and they were dangling Rossi and other assets to facilitate that. I don't really buy the Blackhawks interest involving a third overall pick. I think that was a agent inspired one to try to fuel the fire and get something going here to get a resolution.

But regardless, there were a lot of options for them, right? And I think the reason they went this route is an interesting one to unpack a little bit further because they had such a clear desire to acquire a long-term solution at right-hand D to play with either Dahlion or power after swinging and missing on a variety of guys, whether it was the seven-year extension on Samuelson after a promising start to his career or three years on the free agent market with Connor Clifton, who they just traded today or Bowen Byram and try him

out with Dahlin and using the middle stat trade piece to do so. So they were very kind of gung-ho or I guess had tunnel vision about using this trade as a means for fixing that one thing, right? And I think Kessel Ring was certainly

right up near the top of the list of guys who fit that mold to check those boxes for them and that's why they went that route. But the other one, the other reason why they went that route was because I think it's clear the way they operated under Pagula for years now, they're looking for cost control players. And they're looking to cut corners, I guess, or save money where they can.

And I said Kesselring makes 1.4, Dones on his ELC. Those are a much more palatable contracts moving forward than the extension Petirco wound up getting. And I think that's where you get into trouble with this from a Buffalo perspective, because it feels like I like the return for the return for. them yet people are underwhelmed by it, I think somewhat fairly. And it's because of that. I feel like they box themselves in in a way being like, all right, well, we need these specific things. And even though they might not necessarily be the best way to improve our team, that's what

we're going to do. And that's how they settled on this trade with Utah. Yeah. And you talk about finances. And you talk about two different approaches from two different teams. I mean, when Utah, you signed Petraca and you turn around the next day and it's 7.7. And if you're looking at the Buffalo Sabres, I will combine. They're not paying, they're not paying Don't and Kelsring 7-7. So I do think that enters in the equation. But we've seen it before, Dimitri, and it's unfortunate. But you got to spend money to win in this league.

You just do. And believe me, I was inside the locker room of the Arizona Coyotes year after year after year after year. I'm telling you what, if you don't spend money, you don't win. And I'm telling you, it is incredibly hard. You can spend money and lose because there's plenty of teams that do that. But it's almost impossible to not. spend money and win. And if you're trying to cut corners, I do think at this deal for what you wanted to get in

return where it sounded like that they had to have a right-hand defenseman as part of the deal. And I think that put a lot of teams out. A lot of teams didn't have an abundance of the right-hand defensemen. So I do think that's what allowed Utah to jump into this. Now, were there better deals for a better player? I think we're both hearing there was. But it didn't fit what they needed. And it didn't fit the needs of what they thought they needed to get better.

But to your point, yeah, it's going to be different. in Buffalo, sorry Buffalo fans, until you can finally get through that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that's a capitally and I think with the cap going up, it's only going to make that more difficult, and you're going to have a harder time competing unless you're willing to keep up with the Joneses. And that's how you get, it was a really a perfect storm for this type of transaction, right? An owner trying not to spend in getting two cheap players with a front office that knows this is really their last shop before they're, replaced considering how long they've gotten and without any results for it and both sides being motivated to try and kind of thread the needle right with the best most cost effective fit the way they did here and i just don't know that i get it from a team building perspective but based on the track record and what they were last year i don't think they were a good enough team to justify kind of small

scale tinkering in terms of like well we need this one particular player type because i think what they ultimately need is difference makers and just as many good players as they can get. And that's where I have an issue with it. You look, we'll still see we have a long summer ahead of us. They have about $21 million in Capspace. They did so last year as well. And they went out and, you know, they got Jason Zucker. But they also then got like Lafferty and Malinstein and didn't really tap into their funds

and left with a bunch of unused cap space. And we'll see if that's going to be the case again. And I think that's where it'll be a big issue because I think this move, ultimately at face value, I'm fine with as a one-off, but within the context of that full sequence and approach and a way of doing business, that's where issues arise, right? And so we'll see they've got the Byram decision ahead, as you noted. A variety of other things. They got Jack Quinn on a bridge deal. They're going to need to figure out what to do with Tuck as he reaches UFA next summer. And so a lot of moving parts there. And I'd like to see them. I'd like to think

it'll be handled in good faith, but it remains to be seen. You know, Paterka clearly here by all reports him and his age just didn't really want to work it out with buffalo and wanted to go elsewhere. And that was clear last year, even leading up to the deadline, which is why he was so heavily rumored to be moved at the time. I do think the Sabres had quite a bit of leverage beyond the drama and the uncertainty hanging over them because as an RFA. If a team gave him the contract Utah did here, that's a first, second, third draft picks in return as compensation. And so that's not a bad opportunity as well. They chose to go this route. And I like the players and we'll see.

You got any other notes on this trade or either side or anything we haven't gotten to yet? I do real quick. And I do think when you're looking specifically at the trade and you don't look at all the periphery like you were just talking about it, you just look at the trade. I don't dislike the trade for Buffalo. I really don't. And I think both sides on one of those rare occasions can walk away from this and go, gosh,

I think we're pretty happy with this. I do think the secret weapon and all this is going to be Michael Kesselring. because I do, I don't know what the ceiling is on this kid. I think it could be really high. I mean, this, because I'm, I really like this player. Like, he is stunning to watch at times. Having said that, you bring up the bigger point. And Buffalo might have got some assets in this and then the guys that can play and fit into roles.

But there are so much more. And there's so many more things going on in Buffalo with the Buffalo Sabres that need to be solved and fixed moving forward. That it doesn't really matter. And this sounds terrible. It doesn't matter what they do with. a third line winger or a second pair D doesn't matter. This is a Buffalo franchise that was head to head with the Detroit Red Wings and the Ottawa Senator that, hey, they're all taking step forwards and getting to the playoffs.

Ottawa did that. Detroit is closer. Pittsburgh's floundering. Or excuse me, Buffalo is floundering. And they're still floundering. And so I don't think this one trade makes much of a difference in Buffalo. There's going to be a huge culture shift that needs to happen. And there's a lot of changes that need to happen in that organization before they're ready to

start winning. I'm really curious to see what the next shooter draw. is with the Byram situation in particular because I used to love the player. I think there's enough red flags there now, especially after watching him last year, that he's probably the player I'd prefer to cash in on and trade on the market as opposed to be the one to pick up the tab and pay him long term. Yet some of the reports you hear and people talking behind the scenes, and I think that's clear with this trade and even the trade they made involving Cousins and Norris at the deadline

last year. I think this happens in the league where there's an element of kind of other teams, smell and blood in the water a little bit, right? Whether it's a desperate organization or one that can be taken advantage of a little bit in trade and that resulting in some inferior offers or trying to get a player for cents and a dollar.

And we'll see if that happens in future negotiations. I quickly want to wrap up with this because it is draft weekend. The draft's concluding here. You spent a bunch of times with the coyote, a bunch of years with the coyotes organization behind the scenes. I'm curious for your take on kind of, not this year's broadcast and the direction in terms of the go,

but just from a team perspective, kind of how that weekend unfolds and what that's like. Obviously, as a video coach, you weren't necessarily on the scouting side in terms of watching MHL tape of guys you're going to take in the sixth round or anything like that, but I'm very curious if you've got any unique insight in terms of what that process is like for a team

and kind of how this weekend unfolds for them as it goes along. It's really funny because it's different for different departments. And I think when you look at the scouts specifically, this is their Super Bowl that they've worked so hard. And this is why they're on the road in Moose Jaw and London and Fort Francis all on their own and doing these small things to get an opportunity to show what they've done all the work to do. And for those guys, the draft is something special. For the general manager, it's something special. For the coaching staff of that team, the national hockey league coaching staff, it depends. Like a Dan Mews that's just coming into the Pittsburgh Penguins, a guy that has an extensive background in, you know, with the NDP,

and seeing some of these players play when they're younger, he's going to have big input. A player like Rick Tockeet, when he was with the Arizona and guys had none. Like literally none. There's no input because you don't know anything. And I recall, I've told this story before that Rick Tocket was in the booth with the press box watching the draft.

And John Chica called him. I won't get in the specific players. And he asked, Tuckett, what do you think about player A versus player B? And Rik Tucketka said, I have no idea. I've never seen either guy play. No idea this. on you. And I think it's just to show that coaches, unfortunately, they're about the now. They're about what happens tomorrow next week, next month. Training camps are three months away.

They're not worried about the guy getting drafted in the second, third, fourth, fifth round, because they're not going to see them. You might see them for three days at training camp, but then they're gone. And I don't want to be so curt and so harsh on these kids, but this is a big moment for them, but the future of them playing in the National Hockey League, except for a very few that may see an opportunity to play next season. This is two, three, three, four. years down the road. So when you're looking at an entirety of a staff, whether it's the medical guys, the equipment guys, and the coaching staff, they can't worry about it. They don't have time to worry about it. Their time at the draft is the equipment guys are going, how big is that kid? I

got to get equipment for him on Monday because he's going to be here for development camp. And that's sincerely where their mindset is. These kids are coming to our city. I better be ready for them. The coaching staff is going great, but I've got to start working on my power play with J.J. Paterka. So I think that is such a mix. But what the activity that's happening, the general managers table, man, I've been in the scouting meetings, and I'm telling you, Demetri, getting ready for those scouting meetings at the draft. These guys, I was so utterly impressed at how many players they knew around the world and where they should technically fall and how they fall. And the way they're picking, at least under Bill Armstrong, as they get their, their group,

we're going to pick at X. We're going to pick at 20 or at 14, where they thought they're going to pick. Here's the guys. We're not even going to look at the guys that are top five. We're not, because we're not going to pick there. So we're going to pick in our little grouping. I think they scout by groupings per where your picks are expected to fall. And I do think that put a little wrench into what Utah was going to do this season. Because we were expected to pick later. And all of a sudden, you've been running with that idea that towards the last few months, here's about where we think we're going to fall. Now we're picking the top four. And that's another reason I thought they might trade that pick. But there is so much going on. And it's different for everybody behind those closed doors.

And it's an unbelievable exciting time. However, it's so far in the future. And fan bases get so excited. We drafted this guy. We drafted that guy. You've got six draft picks coming in. Of those six, sorry to tell you, one's going to play. Maybe two.

And that's it. And then you're going to do it all over again next year. And you're getting so excited about the five players you picked. And you'll get them to Dev camp and rookie camp. And you'll bring them to Dev camp and rookie camp next year. And they're not going to play for you. And that's the part that I think I became jaded over the 23 years is how many of those guys came through the door.

And how many of those guys were the guy? and how many of those guys were, hey, what a great pick we made, and then you never see him again. And I just want to temper the draft with that. It's the future, and there are some very good players. But the opportunity for those guys to make a difference and an everyday role in National Hockey League, man, that's a long road between today and when that actually happens.

I do wonder and hearing you talk about that, how much our guy Rick Talkett's input has changed. And obviously, starting into year one here in Philadelphia. and I saw that amongst their first five picks, they basically drafted a basketball team of guys between 6-3 and 6-6. So that's got. But they'll have an input of what that coach wants to play. His specific of player A versus Vee is very B is very, he doesn't know,

but his ability, I want to have this. This is what a Rick Tocket team needs. I need to have this kind of player. And then that's where you see their input is great. What kind of a team are you trying to build? Where are your deficiencies? Do you need a puck handling right winger? Do you need a net front defenseman that can defend really well with a good stick?

I think that's where the coaches' roles come in, is what are we looking for? As opposed to who that player is, it's what that player is. And absolutely right, when you see what the Philadelphia Flyers are doing, that's Rick Tocket written all over it. So that's what I think what the coaches can help provide. Not the who, but the what. Well, good stuff, buddy. I love your input. I always value having you on here.

This was probably your last appearance of this season. We had a really good run. It feels like we had many, many of them. And I think listeners really enjoyed every time I had you on. So look at ahead to next year. We're going to keep doubling down on that and get you on as much as possible. I'll let you plug some stuff here on the way. I'll let the listeners know about inside the coach's room,

whether you're going to be hidden up a cottage and taking some time off here as well as the rest of the hockey role does or whether you've got something for people to look forward to before next year. First of all, Dimitri, you say thank you to allowing me to have a voice with you. This is a great form. And you're an incredibly knowledgeable guy about the last. the game of hockey and hard to to study the way you study and have the facts on hand that you

have. It's an incredible honor to come on because I don't see the game the way you do. So I love to listen to you talk about the game. But no, I'm not going to go anywhere. We're going to do a lot over inside the coaches room over the summer. I'm going to get to some more basic stuff to help people learn the game. I'm going to break down some systems.

What's a one, two, two versus the one, three, one. And just kind of teach the game so that people know what to look for when the season starts. And I'm working on a really cool project right now. I was in the bubble. So last chance I had to work for the coyotes in 2020. I was in the bubble for 27 days. And I'm going to come out with a little documentary,

self-produced documentary of inside the bubble. And I've got a lot of video, a lot of pictures. And I want people to understand what that was like and how different that was for all of these players from all of these teams. It was really cool. And I hope to have that out later in July. Well, that's certainly not a time in our lives

that I would necessarily want to revisit and look back. at fondly and nostalgically, but I think that's going to be really fun. Milan Luchich, Milan Luchich running through the bar with no shirt on tackling couches. Yes, you want to be a part of that. Like it was a bunch of pee tournaments with no media keeping an eye on them. No one was there monitoring this.

And it was just a, every restaurant was just full of NHL players. Like there was nothing else in any building anywhere but NHL players. It was a very interesting time. And I think people will be interested to hear what actually went on behind the scenes. I'll certainly be interested, buddy. This was great. for coming on. Enjoy the rest of the offseason. We'll check in with you soon. I'm already

looking forward to it. We're going to let PD go here. His watch has ended for this season. We're going to go take a quick break. And then when we come back, we're going to bring our pal Harmon dial in to keep things going and talk about some of the other trades. We saw this weekend. You're listening to the Hockey P.D.O.cast streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network. All right. We're back here in the Hockeypediocast coming out of the break. We're replacing Steve Peters with our good pal, Harman, to keep the fun going here because we've still got a lot left to discuss. Haram, how's it going, man? I am both excited for what's about to come as far as the offseason fireworks,

but I'm also still in disbelief at how slow and excruciatingly painful. It was to watch night one of the NHL draft, and as we're recording, the second day is still wrapping up. It's the draft that'll never end. Fortunately for us, we're not going to be talking about it. today instead we're going to be tapping into stuff we're much more equipped to talk about and that's some of the trades we've seen this weekend we've got four here on my list that I want to get to with you today we got about 40 minutes or so so we're going to have some fun with it let's start

with the no adopsin trade going to montreal which came uh on the on the morning of of day one certainly i think expected this as an outcome in terms of dobson being dealt after there was some talk that they were going to revisit extending him and keeping him uh and then once the price point reach a certain threshold. This seemed like the next logical step. Montreal winds up winning the sweepstakes. It sounds like by all accounts, Columbus was right there. And depending on who you ask, they felt their offer was right there with Montreal's,

if not even better. But the trading within division component of it, I think, factored in. And ultimately, the Islanders went with Montreal's package, which included Emil Heinemann, which we're going to talk about, the 16th and 17th overall picks. And we're not going to talk about the draft much, although taking at Clinton Acheson where they did, talking to anyone who knows about the draft feels very good about that. So I think the Islanders salvage which could have been an ugly trade for them

if they hadn't gotten that kind of value out of those picks. But let's focus on Dobbson here and the fit with the habs and kind of what they're getting in him because I think this is true for a lot of, you know, offensively oriented defensemen in terms of depending who you talk to and their preferences. I think opinions are going to vary. He seems like a very polarizing player, having played for the Islanders the past couple of years and obviously peak two years ago

with that 70 plus point explosion and then regressed somewhat from a point perspective at least last year. And it feels like people have kind of soured on him as a player a little bit. I think some of it is justified. I think there's a lot of things that we're going to talk about today that suggests that that's probably unfair and that he's still the caliber of player that he was regarded as previously. But what are your thoughts on Dobson and the Habs? prioritizing landing him and ultimately doing so. I love this fit for the habs. I've been a long time no Dobson believer.

Even going back to his drafter, I watched a ton of his tape in the queue. I've been a long time believer in his sit. And I never thought he was quite as good as his 20, 23, 24 season when he put up the 70 points, when he finished top 10 in Norris trophy voting. I didn't view him as this upper echelon number one defenseman necessarily. But I also think that the criticism of his game coming off a down year this season has been a little bit over the top.

So I'm in between in terms of rating the player between what he did in 2023, 24 and this past season. To me, he's sort of like low end number one slash ultra premium number two. In my mind, he's one of the top 10 or 15 right shot defensemen in the NHL. It gives them another dynamic pock mover, another even strength needle mover for the habs, which outside of the twine and the Lynn Hudson pairing, the habs needed more five-on-five play drivers. And look, top pair right side defensemen in their prime are one of the hardest things in the league to acquire.

And for the Canadians outside of that second line center position, that was probably their biggest roster need moving forward. Plus, you're able to sign him in, sign him long term at under $10 million as a cap. And I think that contract will look good as the cap continues to skyrocket. He's obviously not a not a perfect player, but I'm a fan of the player. I love the fit, whether he's with Gully or you want to load up your two best offensive guys and have him play with Hudson and sort of do the Taves McCarr thing, the Hughes-Heronic thing where you're stacking two of your best pocket movers and offensive guys together. That's an option.

But I also think he'd be a terrific fit with Caden Gouley. Yeah, you mentioned not only a right shot defenseman of one who's 6'4 and, you know, in the prime of his career turning 26 in January. Similar, I just in par one, I had Steve Peters on and we were talking about Michael Kesslering within the context of the JJ Petirca trade. And a lot of that same stuff applies, obviously Dobson and a much higher echelon in terms of production where it wasn't just that 23, 24 season. the past four seasons, he's averaged 56 points per 82 games played.

The only defenseman with more total points in that time are a pretty good list of McCar, Quinn Hughes, Fox, Yossi, Headman, Dahlian, Carlson, Morrissey, and Bouchard. Now, I think there's some important context to apply to what happened last year. Obviously, the Islanders bottomed out due to injuries and regression and wound up getting the first overall pick and getting Matthew Schaefer in the process. But the underlying numbers still suggest that he was. was a legitimate driver, right? 54% or even north of it in terms of 5-15, high-danger chance share, expected goal share. I think it's because of the injuries and as a result of it, like he winds up

playing 50 plus 5-15 minutes with Romanov, Isaiah George, Pellick, Pulock, Mayfield, and then getting into like Mike Riley and Dennis Chalowski and the Islanders had this rotating door of defensemen all year where they wound up using 12 of them for 10 games or more. And then there's also the fact that Barzal only played 30 games, right? And we don't often think about the impact of defense and forward combinations because we think of defense within the context of their own pairing and their own partner. But it's clear when you just apply any thought, but especially look into the tape and what those two guys were doing together when Barzal really had the best season of his career in 23, 24, the chemistry between the two and the dynamic

of creating space for each other and sort of playing off each other in this symbiotic way. And that was on full display that season. And then you remove Barzal from that. equation as well. And I think that added a clear detrimental impact on him clearly has some questions about his game. Right. I think some of the foot speed stuff defensively in terms of defending the blue line has always been up for debate, although you look at Corey Schneider's data and he was much more aggressive last year and gaping up and closing off space and jump and passing lanes. He was still giving up a very high percent of scoring chances off with entries, but the actual volume of what he was allowing guys to carry the puck in went way down compared to even his

best season in 23-24 he forced many more denials and so that's all stuff you like to see and then there's the component of sometimes what's drawn the ire of islanders fans have been the blunders with the puck right giveaways turnovers things like that and some of that is a byproduct i think of him not having a lot of urgency to his game right he plays at a very slower rhythm much more methodical i think with the puck and is a bit more deliberate. And I think he needs to ramp that up a little bit and maybe going to a more fast-paced, younger, explosive team in Montreal

is going to help with that. But it's also, I think, a byproduct of any defenseman that handles the puck as much as he does, right? Playing 23, 24 minutes a night, being relied on to do all the heavy lifting as a creator and facilitator, you're going to wind up having your share of giveaways

just because you always have the puck on your stick. And if you're as talented as he is, you're routinely trying to do stuff with it create. And so those blunders are going to happen. But I think the net positive in terms of his impact and how good the team is with him on the ice and how much he creates, of course, is just undeniable. And so I think betting on the player to bounce back and even really kind of framing it as he wasn't necessarily as bad as some of the overall numbers might indicate last year, I think is very fair. And so I think he's going to be awesome in Montreal.

Yeah, as you alluded to, he's not a perfect player, especially defensively and the puck management side of things. He did have some very loud defensive blunders, but when you step back and look at the overall picture, he's consistently won his minutes playing first pair

the last four seasons. He has been in this top pair role and the aisles have scored more goals than they've allowed in every single one of those seasons during Dobson's five-on-five shifts. And even when we characterize

his defensive flaws, the actual number of goals against that he's on the ice for aren't actually that high, right? So you look at the last three seasons, Dobson's been on the ice for 2.24 goals against per 60. At 5-on-5, that ranks top 50 among NHL defensemen. So yes, he's prone to blunders. Yes, without the puck, there are moments

when he'd like him to be a little bit more assertive closing plays and killing them proactively. And he's been criticized for not always leveraging a 6-foot-4 frame assertively enough. And I understand all of those question marks, but ultimately you step back. And when you can find a 25-year-old defenseman who isn't just competent in top pair of minutes, but is consistently winning them, that's a really hard player to acquire. It is.

And as I said, some of the regression as well, right, where in 23, 24, he has the 70 points, the plus 12. Last year he winds up which was 39 points and a minus 60 and you look a little further and as you alluded to they still won his 5-15 minutes.

He had a plus three goal differential. Part of that minus is just because he was on the ice for a shocking amount of empty net goals against because the Islanders weren't very good and the power play itself was 31st in the league. And so he was on that unit

but with Barzal out and then trading Nelson I'm not necessarily holding that against him. And as you look ahead to him in Montreal with Lane Hudson there, the points might not necessarily bump up back to that 70 point total, and he might not even get a heavy volume of power play usage, but what he's going to be able to do at 5-1-5 is, I think, going to make a massive difference.

And I want to talk more a little bit about that fit in terms of the best way to deploy them and what you see, because I imagine Marty St. Louis certainly, you know, situationally, if they're trailing or pushing for offense, going to be inclined to load up. both him and Hudson as, you know, on their natural sides with one being a lefty and one being a righty. And I think that dynamic can certainly coexist because they both like to have the puck on their stick, but they also do it in different ways, not only with Dobson's shot compared to Hudson's more sort of

holding on to it and trying to make place for other dynamic, but also what I said earlier about whenever he'd be out there with Barzal, you'd sort of see this where Barzal would kind of be holding on to the puck and circling the zone and Dobson was so good at stepping into the open lane or kind of moving off of this spot and getting lost in the coverage and then popping open and either getting a good look off of it or then setting up a teammate with a backdoor pass and I think they're going to be able to replicate a lot of that with Hudson some of the interchanges of the blue line and setting them up for a one-time look in a good shooting position. So I love that but I think even long term the idea that you add a guy who can has already proven that he can flow.

his own pair is a massive development for the habs because when they had Hudson and Gouley out there as the year progressed, things were shaping up really well for the habs. But beyond that, and some of that was deployment, right? Like they leaned on that Mike Matheson, Alex Carey, a pair with such heavy defensive zone deployment where I think they were under 30% offensive zone starts for a long time. That's going to result in bad numbers, especially with Matheson, not really having the skill set to accommodate that. But they just didn't really have playmakers or facilitators when Hudson wasn't out there, especially if Gouli was playing with him.

And now you have a second guy who can get the pocket of the forwards efficiently and quickly. And I think we agree that Marty St. Louis wants this team, ideally, to play quickly north-south and attack much more off the rush. And I think a guy like Dobson and his skill set is really going to help enable that to a great extent. Yeah, this gives Marty St. Louis a lot of different options. And I'm curious to see how they experiment in training camp and preseason. and even during the sort of the regular season to land on what's the optimal way to deploy these guys.

Because you're right, Dobson can drive his own pairing, which is such an asset, where some defensemen only thrive in a top four setting when they have an equal or better sort of partner to play with. Whereas Dobson, you can trust that a skill set can work in a complementary role if you want to load him up with Hudson

and especially with their offensive skillsets sort of being complimentary, they would have a ton of success together. But also now Gouli all of a sudden, he's a big winner in all this where now of a sudden you're imagining that he's going to be with one of Hudson or Dobson at all times. And when I look at Gouly's skill set as a sort of shut down, more authoritative physical presence, a guy who can gap up in the neutral zone. And also fits that modern blend where he's mobile enough and has enough. sort of puck skills to complement an offensive guy.

It takes pressure off him to single-handedly drive a pair. And I think the idea of him and Dobson together, where you mention that Dobson isn't always necessarily the best at defending off the rush, well, that's an area where Goody really excels in. So that fits there. And if Goalie isn't with Dobson, then he gets to play with Hudson full time. So this gives the Canadians a ton of options. And even when I think about this Habs-Bullin long-term now,

To have Hudson, Dobson, Goody, and then also Reinebacker coming, this Habs Blue Line is going to be an absolute force for years to come. Yeah, I love the 23-24 tape I got into it in preparation for this was just absolutely sublime for Dobson, like the amount of the things he was doing in the offensive zone in terms of some of the backdoor passing and setting guys up for tap-ins or the shot passes and Ilearners had a bunch of guys Netfront with Lee and others who were able to capitalize on that or just kind of playing around with it at the blue line and creating space for others was was next level.

And so I think that's something to really look forward to here. On the note of pairs and having a second pair that can hold their own, I know it was only five games in round one against the caps, but I think it's pretty instructive in terms of what we're talking about where when Montreal had Gouli and Hudson out there in that series, 55% shot share, 515, 61% expected goal share. unfortunately when they had the other pairs, which were Matheson and Carrier or David Savard, who's since retired with either Jacques I or Strubel, they were in the mid-30s, essentially, right? And there was a massive sample of Matheson and Carrier kind of playing in a role that wasn't suitable to their skill set and being over-extended,

and they were just getting crushed in that time. And really, you could even date this back to since the Four Nations break when Montreal really started their spirited playoff push. And that's a 26 game sample. When they had Suzuki and Hudson out there, up 17 to 4, 61% of the shots, 61% of the chances and expected goals. And then without them, down 27 to 14 and everything in the 30s. And so just having a second driver who, if you don't have those guys out there, is still able to keep you afloat and actually create stuff, is just going to be so massive.

On the power play note, I think we both expect that he's not necessarily going to feature very heavily on the top unit, right? Because I think the splits for them last year, they wind up 21st on the man advantage. I don't think that's reflective of how good their top guys were, because a lot of that includes the early season when they were kind of working Hudson in and trying to manage his minutes, and Matheson was in that top unit. And as soon as they put Hudson up there and he was playing with Suzuki and Caulfield in the top unit, they exploded up to 9.5 goals per hour. And that was, I think, six best in the league. And then now you also bake in Demidoff's playmaking and potentially adding to that as another creator,

that's going to be a pretty lethal combination of guys. And I think that's going to allow Dobbson, certainly to quarterback the second unit, but just generate a lot of his value to his team, I think, and just in making them a much more well-rounded 5-15 group. And that's something you look for when you try to take that next step as an organization from last year was a fun story. They made the playoffs for the first time in a while, and now actually consolidating on that and building it out and scaling it,

and becoming a team that does this year over year and actually advances past just five-game cameo in the first round. Yeah, the Canadians are so impressive at the top of the lineup, again, both up front and on that first pair when Hudson was on the ice, but everywhere else they were just consistently losing their matchups. And I also like that the haves were sort of initially looking at those two first round picks they had and ideally looking for that second line. center, but then realizing in this competitive market, it's unlikely that they would have been

able to land that perfect center. So pivoting on the fly and filling another critical area of need and just broadly, all right, you maybe didn't check off the first priority of the two C, but you still found another player that in a different part of lineup is still going to accomplish that overall goal of adding another needle mover at five on five. So you aren't so solely dependent on the Suzuki line and the huts. impaired to make things happen for you is massive for them. And also then when you consider

having Demadol for a full season and him being a creator on the second line potentially, like you're shaping up to add a couple of really high-end drivers to a team that was already getting elite results at the top in lineup. Yeah, especially when you think about how they were able to facilitate this trade, right, and how they had for a couple of years leveraged assets very shrewdly through resourceful ways and then essentially creating it this trade package that they sent to the islanders through those means where they get Heinemann

for Tofoli in February 2020 when they really start selling and Heinemann I've seen this tweeted but all-time trade tree at this point where he's a second rounder in 2020 I believe with the with the Panthers since then he's been traded for Sam Bennett Tyler Toffoli and how no adopts it and I actually do like Hyman quite a bit. He's a 24-year-old RFA. He's got a nice combo of size speed and he ate up a ton of heavy defensive minutes for the HABs last year and I think the Islanders

for all their flaws last season had a bunch of really fun kind of rangy effective wingers that helped them get better results than they probably deserve based on the talent level on that roster and so I think they're going to get a lot of utility out of them. But they use Heimann. They got that

16th overall pick from the flames for taking on 6 million of Sean Monack Han's expiring and then obviously got an extra first for Monahan later from the Jets after he got healthy and in the 17th overall pick as well after making it back to the playoffs and that not not being a premium asset necessarily out of the lottery and so there's that and then the extension itself and you mentioned keeping it under 10 million it covers his age 26 through 33 prime seasons I think J Fresh had this stat where by year four that 9.5 a.A.V is essentially going to be equivalent to like a seven-ish million-dollar A-A-V under the Caps Bay system

or Byronment that we become accustomed to. And so when you think about that for a guy who's a 1A, 1B, all of a sudden, I just think the business of it, regardless of the on-ice fit, is incredible, I think, from Montreal. Well, they accomplished what so many teams were trying to do leading up to the draft, which is looking at a pick in the middle of the first round in trying to exchange it for a win now piece, like a true difference maker.

Now, a lot of those teams were more specifically looking for forwards, but how many teams were looking to be aggressive and move their first round pick in a similar boat as, let's say, Vancouver, as Columbus, who was obviously also in on Dobbson, the number of teams that were open to the idea of moving their first, not even just necessarily this year, but a team like Seattle, Jason Bottero was, there was a YouTube video on the Crackens page where in a Q&A, he was discussing how the extra first round picks they got from Tampa and the Bjorks trying to trade, how they love the idea

of potentially leveraging that to acquire like a proper top of lineup difference makers. So so many teams are trying to land impact pieces right now. And we know that there aren't many sellers out there. So for the Canadian, especially like this is the window for them to step on the gas and really accelerate and improve now. They were able to accomplish what a lot of teams wanted to do but weren't able to pull off as far as turning future assets into Winnow help. And that contract's going to wind up looking even better not only with the cap going up, but the amount of money the haps have coming off the ledger the next two years, right? When Matheson's deals expiring, Carrier, Lines, Gallagher, and Josh Anderson,

that's nearly 30 million in cap space between those guys. And the timing's perfect with Hudson's second deal, obviously kicking in in 26, 27, and Demidov, assuming he stays on the trajectory, we're expecting from him in 27, 28, and you've got Suzuki, Caulfield, Sloskowski, and Gouli all signed into the 2030s. So it's shaping up nicely. Do you want to quickly talk about the Islanders? perspective here because I think the Habs one is certainly more interesting from what Dobson's going to look like for them. But just in terms of the package and kind of the position they're in

now with Matthew Dars replacing Lou and obviously being armed with a first all roll pick, which is nice and getting Matthew Schaefer, who I think everyone's excited for. And then what they wound up getting with those picks because it certainly seemed like, you know, they make that deal early on Friday. It was very clear. And I think they've even acknowledged it that they were hoping to package them to move up and get James Hagan's as well as part of that. that hall that doesn't wind up happening but they get eclan who i can't believe fell as far as he did he was ninth on e p's draft heading into the draft and a hison who i think is a very intriguing defensive prospect as well i think they're ultimately very happy with the returns in terms of what they're

coming out of his draft with uh but certainly a big a big change and opens up a lot for them on the blue line and it sounds like they're going to extend romanov as opposed to trading them uh but i do wonder whether this is just kind of the first domino in terms of really turning over this franchise and making other moves just beyond this one. Yeah, if I was in the aisle's position, I, again, I'm a believer in the player. I would have extended him.

He's 25, so it sounds like the aisles are pursuing more of a retool than they are full tear it down. Rebuild and with that in mind and how difficult it is to find top pair right shot defense. I would have kept Obson. But for them to, like they were able to salvage it somewhat with the Echlin and Acheson picks. Especially Eklund, there are some smaller wingers that you look at and go, all right, there might be concerns about compete level or is it's going to be a perimeter oriented player. But what's special about Eklund is, it's not just the dynamic skill he has, but the dog on a bone mentality.

The compete level is off the charts. And so I'm really confident that his skill set is going to translate at the NHL level, despite him not being a six foot plus winger. So I love that pick for him. I think that was terrific value, a ton of upside there. And then Acheson as well, throwback, physical defenseman with some intriguing offensive tools as well. That helps salvage the trade for me from the aisle's perspective. Heidman obviously is a nice bottom six winger, the speed, the energy, the hustle. I loved watching him in Montreal.

So you walk away with three decent pieces. Again, I think Ecclind and Acheson specifically being those picks, I didn't think those guys were going to be there at that point in the draft. So that helps salvage a return that when the trade first happened. Otherwise, kind of looked at it and went, I would have preferred to keep Dobson if I was in the aisle shoes. Yeah, and then on the blue line, they do still have Bullock, Pellick and Mayfield signed for,

what, between four and five more years and they're all in their 30. but they do have Lee and Pajot, particular, coming off the books after this season and that's going to clear a lot of space. And you look ahead two years from now, the amount of cap space they're theoretically going to have. We'll see how they wind up using it between now and then, but at least the idea of, you know,

they were stuck kind of in this unfortunate middle ground after, you know, making some really spirited runs for a couple of years there, but then now kind of paying the price for it with just being in contractual hell under Lew. And it does feel like at least, even if it's a bit of a step back, opening up more flexibility and actually having a future is, I think, at least something that you can sell yourself on here. All right, Arm, let's take our break.

And when we come back, we're going to close out today's show. I got a couple more trades that I really want to run through with you here before we have finish up today. You're listening to the Hockey-Pedio cast streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network. All right. We're back here on the Hockey-Ocast, the Harmon-dial Haram. Let's close out with a couple more trades at the risk of going as long as the NHL draft has been. I really want to get the stuff with you while I got you. Let's start with one of the first trades that came out on Saturday.

And it's a relatively smaller one, I think, at least on paper, but one that I think is interesting to discuss. And that's Jordan Spence going to the senators. Now, I love what Ottawa did here in terms of flipping 21, essentially, on day one of the draft for 23 and still making their pick. They wind up taking E.P's 17th ranked prospect, Logan Hensler, who is a 6'3 right-hand defenseman playing at the University of Wisconsin at 23. and then they get the 67th pick for trading down, right? And I think that was a theme that we saw in the limited trades we did get in in round one was I really like the price essentially for any team trading down,

in particular the Keynes doing the regular Keynes business of just facilitating a bunch of those because the Sends then are afforded the opportunity to flip that 67th pick and a 20266th for Spence. And I get all of the yeah buts about Spence in terms of the size, usage, how sometimes I think we can become over-affatuated with that particular player profile, and it might not necessarily actually be as valuable as you suspect, especially in league circles or within teams. Yet, every time I watch Spence play, I'm enamored with his game. And I feel like, especially for Ottawa at this price and how he fits into what they

already have on the blue line, is such a no-brainer. And this was probably my favorite trade of this entire week from a value perspective and getting a guy in a very true manner. Outstanding value. The Senses past season, their top four was in good shape, but their third pair was up and down. And they had to lean on the corpse of Travis Hamanick for 59 games in the regular season, which was problematic. Spence comes in, and this is beauty right, right? You can say what you want about his usage being relatively sheltered.

They're not asking Spence to come in and fill a top four role. They're asking him to play a third pair on the right side. and we know he can shine there. We know he delivers outstanding results in that role. He moves a puck well. He's got some offensive upside nearly 30 points this season. And I think he defends just fine despite his size. I like his IQ.

I like his positioning, his angles, his compete level. I've never watched him and thought to myself, oh, that's a defensive liability, the way that, let's say, an Eric Brantstrom is sometimes where Brantzum is another example of auto offense will obviously be familiar with him. but sort of fitting that mold of the shelter third pair defenseman that we sometimes fall in love with a little bit too much analytically. I don't see that concern with Spence defensively.

I think he's reliable in that third pair capacity. And really, this is just a case where in L.A., they were just too deep on the right side of the blue line, and especially when they are trying to work Brent Clarkin as another young right shot offensively oriented defenseman that they need to work in a little bit carefully and his matchups need to be a little bit prescribed. It was just impossible to give Spence an opportunity with Clark at the same time, same handedness, same position. And of course, Clark being the higher pedigree prospect with the higher ceiling, they were obviously going to

thought with everything they have invested in him, give him that opportunity. opportunity first. So I love this move for for the Sends. Yeah, Spence is a 25 year old right-ended defenseman who's making just 1.5 million next year. I think Dom's model really loves him in particular. It has his market value at about 5.2 million by comparison. And you look at, you know, the numbers and you mentioned being an analytical darling, obviously in his 515 minutes being up 53 to 28 is always going to be a good thing. It does come in terms of third pair of usage. But I will say he had about 320 minutes or so 515 with Gavrikov with tougher deployment, at least from his own perspective, and look

totally fine in that part. The quality of competition is low for the course of his career, but I think he can handle it. I think that's what's intriguing for Ottawa, because you mentioned not necessarily needing to rely on him up the lineup. I do wonder, you know, Nick Jensen has that injury and he has a surgery in the offseason. And I think there's been at least some speculation that he might miss the start of the year and be unavailable. And so we know that Sanderson and Zuber are going to eat up a heavy amount of not only minutes, but defensive zone starts. And so if that frees up the idea of, let's say, a Shabbat, uh, Spence pairing to just cook in offensive minutes, I think that's very interesting, at least for a, for a short period of time. And then you see how he equates himself there.

And then if he has to play on the third pair and be more of a primary facilitator with Cleven on his side, all of a sudden, I think that's, that's great value too. But I don't know, I kind of, I don't necessarily agree with the idea that just because Clark's there, their hands were tied and they couldn't make it happen because I just think where there's a will, there's a way. And I think it would just would require trusting these guys a bit more. And I get that there was a certain level of being backed into a corner from a desperation perspective once you lose four straight times to Edmont and you feel like they're the boogeyman and you're never going to beat them. And you could really feel that desperation in that series as it was unraveling with Jim Hiller just relying on

his veterans and doing stuff that I think drove both you and I crazy. But in that series, Spence plays 37 and a half minutes in five games, including 255 in game three specifically when it hits its nadir. And so afterwards it comes out that Spence had requested a trade internally and, you know, they obliged him. I think he was well within his right based on that because he certainly should be playing more. And I think I'd argue that I don't know if they necessarily would have beaten Edmonton because

there were a variety of reasons they lost. but on the forefront of my mind is just that vision of Jim Hiller not trusting his guys and kind of going down with the ship. And now Ken Holland comes in. This is one of the first moves he makes. And they have cap space. We'll see what happens. Gavrikov is obviously a UFA.

But I do, if I'm a Kings fan right now, I'm a little bit sort of preemptively anxious about whether this is foreshadow in terms of what's to come and kind of how they're going to approach this pretty high leverage crossroads off season for themselves as an organization. Yeah, and the blue line big picture as well is at a fork in the road, not just because of Gavikov, but Drew Dowdy after missing more than half the season coming off that ankle surgery wasn't himself. And you saw that reflected in his workload as well. He took a step back offensively and defensively.

His $11 million cap hit is more of a hindrance than it's ever really been. And of course, Doughty can still give you value in a top four role. but before the season, they were still leaning on him to play outrageous minutes, 24, 25, 26 minutes a night. He was consistently among, but before this past season, the NHL's most used number one defense been. And so without he getting up there in age and him not being able to single-handedly carry the mail like he once was able to do, plus the possibility that Gavrokov is going to walk in for agency, you're losing Spence as well. It creates a lot of uncertainty on the blue line where Holland's going to have to make sure that they are adequately able to replace Gavakov's minutes.

And then on top of that, they're really, really have to hope now that Clark hits because they've bet on him over Spence, which again is understandable. I would have been shocked if they didn't based off everything they've invested. him in, invested in him as a really high draft pick. But the King's blue line has been rock solid and has never really been a question mark for all these years. But even after losing Matt Roy last summer, you're in a position now where that king's blue line for the first time in a while has some question marks. I completely agree.

I think everyone gets so fixated on some of these guys where they show flashes in a third payroll. And then I think there's a natural inclination of want more from them. And I think it's okay ultimately if that's what a player is, right? Because assuming you're actually using those guys and not doing what Jim Hiller did, which is just rolling two pairs or five defensemen at all times and only giving a couple minutes, if he's still playing 12 to 14, 5-1, 5 minutes a night and just crushing those even in softer matchups, that's a very valuable thing for a really good team.

And obviously you're going to have injuries and stuff throughout a regular season. So I think the idea of given his contract and it being as affordable as it was and how good I think he is coming away with this value, I think is a really tough thing to justify. Let's move on to John Gibson going to Detroit. Our long national nightmare of Gibson trade talk seems like it's mercifully over with him finding a new home. I think the key selling point here, and we're going to get more into Detroit's goalie situation and what they've been through the past couple of years of that position. But for a while there, it seemed like such an exorbitant contract to take on, right,

when it had four or five years left on it. and the $6.4 million salary, now it's been whittled down after this waiting game to just the two years, his age 32 to 33 seasons. And it was only in 29 games because he had a variety of injuries, and I do think that is a concern for Gibson

as he moves further into his 30s. But the 29 games he played finally showed us much more in terms of production than the past couple years had behind a team that still wasn't very good in Anaheim. And I do think that is an encouraging thing to hold onto here because the talent and the athleticism and the gloves save swag and the attitude and all of that and how competitive he is.

We're never in question, but the results for years now hadn't aligned with that. And he'd been sub-910 and save percentage for a couple of years. And so for him to bounce back last year and have the 9-12 and a plus 12 goal save above expected is a nice change. And so if you're telling me that's the version that's going to Detroit, all of a sudden now I'm pretty intrigued by this deal. Absolutely. And like you said, I had already suspected that those two sub-9-900, say, percent in its years

were mostly just about how disastrous the Ducks defensive environment was and not so much a reflection of Gibson's individual play declining, but also a second point, which is, in a couple of these Ducks rebuilding seasons, Gibson would always get off to this heater of a start through the first six weeks of the regular season and it felt like then once the ducks like their season would already be over six weeks in and you would almost see the like psychological effect for Gibson where either he'd get hurt

or just from like a frustration of we're terrible again and his play would slip a lot but that was a consistent theme in a lot of these years where you would look at his safe percentage on paper and it wouldn't look great is not just all right the defensive environment's bad. but he'd get on these heaters, but then as soon as it was clear that the ducks weren't going to be competing for anything, that's when Gibson's numbers would start to tank.

And I started to wonder about, all right, what's the psychological effect of him playing on such a bad team? And what could it mean for him going to a more competitive environment? You know, 9-12 save percentage with the ducks shoring things up a little bit defensively last season. That's obviously really promising. the durability is of course going to be question mark. But as you alluded to, the contract is a lot more palatable to take on, not just because the term with two years left is manageable,

but also just because of the direction that goalie contracts in the league have been going over the last 12 months where there's been serious inflation at the position where even mid-tier goaltenders are in this sort of like five and a half to six-six-ish million dollar. range now where I look at a Kevin Lankton in Vancouver, right? This was his first season where he was thrust into ONA position because of Thatcher Demko's health.

He had a solid season. It wasn't spectacular by any means and he was rewarded with a long-term deal and a four and a half million dollar cap it. And even around the league, Joey Decord lived up to it this year. But Decord got around the five-ish million dollar range, maybe slightly north of that after for one good season in the NHL. So Gibson with his pedigree, with his talent level,

$6.4 million. It's maybe a little bit steep, but it's nowhere near as onerous than it maybe looked like a couple of years ago. Plus they dump Morazix contract is part of the trade as well. So as far as the Red Wings taking cap on,

it's not really much of a net difference. I like this bet for them, even though they're obviously going to be, question marks as far as durability is concerned. Yeah, I think that's the key point as well, right? In sending RASIC back, the difference between the two is 2.15 million for 25, 26. And at that point, Gibson will be an expiring deal in the following season. So I think the risk is pretty tempered there.

And I really think that's, you know, the ducks defensively last year, 31st in slot shots, 30 second inner slot shots allowed 30 second in defensive zone time, 30 second and expected goals against. But it goes beyond that because this had been going on for so. many years from the Dallas Aiken's years to Greg Cronin, the past couple, where expect goals against are theoretically going to measure or account for that environment, but that psychological component of just being stuck in this endless loop of meaningless games, essentially, where you're a veteran with high hopes and you're just playing for nothing and you're not getting

any support in front of you. I think that's going to take its toll and that's going to be a really difficult thing to to quantify with the numbers. And I think that's what the Red Wings are banking on here. You look at their goalie position last year, and they finished 22nd in Team C percentage, but that had dropped to 880-ish, I believe, post-4 nations when the wheels kind of came off.

And I think part of that was because they'd been using Cam Talbot so much. He winds up with 47 games played. He's turning 38 in July. And in talking to people, like, you know, at that point, because he was playing so much, he was really managing his workload. And so he's, like, unable to practice. they don't trust Alex Lyon.

And then all of a sudden you get to the point where they go out and they bring in Petter and Razick just to have a guy available to kind of bridge that gap. And so bringing in Gibson, I assume he's going to play in the 40-ish games if his body holds up. I think he's going to do well in those. And so I think it's an exciting one, especially when you look at the goalie carousel in Detroit, right? The last four years, they've used 11 different goalies. And it's quite a list of guys. And so you're not even necessarily hoping for Gibson to be what he was in his prime in 2015.

because that was a long time ago now, but just some sort of a middle ground, especially for a goalie going from Greg Cronin to a Todd McClellan system that we've seen boost goalies in the past. I do think my expectations are actually pretty high for this one, and I'm excited to see what he looks like in Detroit.

Yeah, and that's the key, is you don't need him to be a worker or starter playing 50 plus games. You just need him to deliver quality, playing in a tandem with Talbot, who was pretty sturdy this past season up until the workload started to catch up with him. And it's nice as well that the Red Wings still have Sebastian

Kosa down in the minors where that's an insurance for them if Gibson gets hurt or if Talbot at age 38. If he gets hurt or if his play dramatically falls off a cliff, they have an insurance there as well. So for the first time in a while, the Red Wings feels stable at the goaltending position, which is really important because there have definitely been stretches where that has that in conjunction with a little bit of sloppy defensive players let them down. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see on Kosa. I think depending on who you talk to, there's there's varying returns there. I think obviously people were very excited by the frame and the athleticism when they took him 15th in 2021. He's played 84 AHL games at this

point, yet they clearly don't trust him or want to rely on him at this point. And I think there's a question of whether his current technique is going to hold up against NHL shooters. And that's why they're reluctant to do so. And then you factor in them taking Trey Augustine 41st in 23 as well and him potentially leapfrog him internally. But ultimately, you're dealing from an area of strength now. And I think that gives you more assets to play with. And we heard Dylan Larkin and the players after the season expressed how sort of disheartened

they were by how the season ended a ninth straight year missing the playoffs, not really making any sort of a push in watching a division rival in the Habs, sort of jump up and take that spot that had finally opened the Atlantic. And so I do think this provides some hope in that regard. From the Ducks perspective, I mean, beyond kind of ending this saga and getting a couple assets, right, they get the 2027 second, the 2026 fourth. They have still just an endless amount of cap space, 38 million now. DeLuca's those dollars in RFA. He's going to be 25 years old. He had an awesome season last year, nearly 21 goals they were about expected. It just gives him more runaway, I guess, although he already played 54 games last year. So I think that's kind of pushing it in

terms of how much higher that's going to get. But given his age and how good he is, I imagine they're going to use him quite a bit. And so I think that's a good thing for him. And it opens the door for a little bit more of that. And I get why they did it. The return itself isn't necessarily going to blow you away, but it never really was because we're talking about a goalie who hasn't had the best track record the past couple years, makes a bunch of money, and the market was going to be pretty limited to accommodate that. And so it kind of provides a resolution to this. You got any thoughts from the Ducks perspective here?

Yeah, the return was fine. It was about what I expected. It was never going to be huge given Gibson's cap hit and durability, even in a goaltending market where there weren't a lot of quality net minors out there. Yeah, taking back, my initial thought was, all right, maybe the ducks could have squeezed a little bit more out of it, but then I thought about it a little bit more. And well,

the ducks would have needed somebody to play behind Doe Stahl anyway. And the phraget market is pretty thin. And the ducks have an endless pit of cap space. Marzik only has one year left on his deal. Plus he's shown, like this past season was tough for him. But the year prior and in Chicago, he was really effective. And I think you could have done a lot worse as far as a backup for Dostal.

So I don't mind them. paying a bit of a premium cap hit for Morazik for one year, just to feel like you've got a stable number two behind Dostana. All right, let's end with this. I want to do one more trade, and it's the one we saw on Friday between the blue jackets and the avalanche, and I'm not sure if you received it the same way, but you kind of saw pieces of it start trickling out,

and you're like, all right, well, Coil's going to Columbus. That's a bit strange, but they similarly have so much cap space. he's a veteran with still good utility, although quite limited offensively at this point. I get it, even though they have a bunch of centers already. It just gives them another piece. We've seen the guys like this with limited term, but some money attached that might have otherwise been tough to move or a needed sweetener accompanying in it are now just being taken on by teams.

Then you hear a couple picks are going to Colorado, and you're like, all right, well, that seems a little bit steep. Then Gavin Brindley gets thrown in. And then the cherry on top for me was Miles Woods contract. being attached as well. And I said earlier that I thought Jordan Spence deal going to Ottawa was my favorite of these moves over the weekend. I got to say this one's probably my least favorite in terms of what Columbus did here and bailing out Colorado and freeing up cap space for them. It's not as much of an issue for Columbus because they just have so much cap space. They still have

in the 30s, I think, in terms of room and they're probably not even going to be able to spend it. So it's not like it necessarily completely hamstrings you or this was. your one shot and now you have opportunity cost. But I just don't really understand it. And most of it is because I just don't really value Miles Wood as an impactful player anymore. And I don't think he's shown us anything in a while to suggest that that should be the case. And so I don't really see the logic in terms of why they paid such a premium to make a deal of this nature. Yeah, I'm with you.

If this was just Charlie Coyle for, let's say, a second round pick, I would have looked at that and gone, are a little bit odd. I wouldn't have necessarily looked at Columbus as a need with, is a team with a center need per se, but all right, that's fine. Coil can make sense. I'll help them out in the bottom six.

They have a lot of left-handed center, so he's a righty, he's good on draws. He can help you in a sort of third line kind of role. You're going to be able to shift a guy like Cilinger to the way. That's fine. He can help you out. They've got so much cap space.

So even if Coil is closer to, let's say, a three and a half to four-ish million dollar player an actual value compared to his $5.25 million cap it. The premium doesn't really matter because the blue jackets have so much cap space. That I would have looked at and gone, all right, that's fine. But then for them to also take wood on and add value in the trade beyond that, that's the part where they kind of lost me. Woods, what's fascinating because I was looking at Colorado's cap situation a couple of

weeks ago when I was working on a piece looking at about nine overpriced contracts that I thought teams would try shopping this offseason. Wood was one of them. And it was so funny looking through Woods season this past year where obviously dealt with injuries, his offensive production fell off a cliff. He became a healthy scratch for Colorado. There's a ton of term left on the deal. It isn't just two and a half million dollars in cap space. He still signed for a really long time. I looked at all of that and I still thought to myself, I bet you there's some team that's going to want to bet on him anyway, even though there are all these red flags because Wood

skates like the wind and is a big body, which teams salivate over at times. So even though Wood's contract isn't won, I would have touched and it's a huge win from Colorado to get it off the books, I expected that somebody was going to take. this gamble on on wood. Again, I'm not a fan of it, but we'll see. Ultimately, it's not going to hurt the blue jackets too badly

because they have so much cap flexibility. But I'm with you. The wood part of the angle, especially when you then had to add assets on top of that is where I didn't like this trade for Columbus. Yeah, I mean, it's like a legitimate trade package, right? It's 77th overall, a 2027 second,

and then Gavin Brinley, who was the 34th overall pick in 23 and he's undersized, but he's got immense skill. And he had a so-so season, good start, kind of faded down the stretch in his first pro year in Cleveland in the HL, but the huge production at Michigan was something that you want to bank on. And I think that's exactly a type of player that Colorado is going to value the wood one. I mean, past four years, games played three, 76, 74, 37 last year. He had four goals and eight points. And he winds up dressing for just a one playoff game in their round one series against alice and in that one he plays 1243 he's on the ice for three goals against including the o t winner where he

in true mileswood fashion just inexplicably skates as fast as he can to recover and just like jumps over his defenseman and completely takes himself out of the play and colin black will scores the overtime winner and i think he had the most unhinged game i can recall an individual having on february fourth of mancouver i'm not sure if he were covering that one for the athletic or if you were there. But he has a fighting major in the second period. Then in the third, he goes cross-checking penalty, roughing, holding, slashing, and then draws a misconduct to get kicked out.

And it was just like, man, this is the peak Miles Wood experience. So I don't know, 2.5 million of four more years turning 30. It's not a bet I'd make. I get it from a size speed perspective. And those players being valued so much around the league now after what we just saw Florida do. And it's not going to be necessarily restrictive or inhibiting for Columbus. but I just wonder why you wouldn't use those assets instead to go out and add a legitimate

difference maker, especially at the right-hand deposition. I know those guys are very hard to come by and they were very close to getting Dobson. And so that makes quite an emotional roller coaster on Friday for Columbus and their fans where you're thinking you're getting to get him and then you wind up with this instead. I do wonder about Erasmus Anderson or someone like that. And I feel like this package of picks and prospects, they moved here, obviously need to add to it. but I feel like that would all of a sudden get you in the door or at least hold some meetings for some very good players instead.

And so I just feel like the opportunity cost of that for them didn't make sense. And for Colorado shedding this money the way they did, we'll see what they do with it. They still need to fill out their blue line certainly. But all of a sudden for a team that looked like it was going to be pretty up against it financially this offseason now as I think over 10 million if they wind up putting Logan O'Connor on LTIR to start.

And so that's going to be an interesting thing to monitor with them to see what they do with this and how aggressive they are and try to add another key player. Yeah, I imagine they'll take a run at resigning Kivirontah, potentially. He had a solid year in the bottom six, gave him secondary scoring. They obviously have to get Molinsky done still, I believe. And then after that, it's going to be intriguing. Now they've got space to target one more middle of the line of player.

Do you go after a Ford to fill the John Clinton-Juan kind of role? He's a pending UFA, obviously, or do you? you go for another defenseman to fill the role that obviously they acquired Ryan Lindgren to fill down the stretch for them. And he's obviously a pending UFA now as well. I personally wouldn't want to be the team that signs Lindgren's next contract. I think he was a really high-quality defenseman in New York for a while. But he strikes me as a kind of defenseman that because of how physically taxing his playing

style is, how many block shots, how many injuries he's sustained. I don't think he's going to age particularly well on his next contract. And so if I'm Colorado, I would steer clear of, all right, we've got a bunch of cast base now and we need another defenseman. Let's go on and re-sign Lindgren. I would want to stay away from that. But the bigger point is they've got an ability to, whether it's up front or on the back end, land another middle, the line of piece to make a difference, which they obviously didn't

have room to do before making this in the next. part two is I imagine Ross Colton will just slide over to the to the 3C position. So it's not as if losing coil puts them in a position where now you've got another hole to fill at the center ice position. All right, harm, good stuff. I appreciate you taking the time. I know it's a very busy part of the schedule. You're cranking out the trade grades and the contract grades as well over the athletic.

So let the listeners know a little bit about that. Some of the stuff you've done recently and what you've got ahead here as we approach July 1st with a rapid pace. Yeah, a lot of trade grades, contract grades, just reacting to everything that happens in the off season. It's going to be a lot of fun, and I'll be all over it at the athletic. All right, buddy, good stuff.

We will be back tomorrow, I believe. We're going to do the Sunday special with our palerance, and we've got some fun topics planned already. As we've been recording this, there's been rumors or, I guess, breaking news about the possibility of a Mitch Martiner trade to Vegas, including our guy Nick Waugh, who have tried to trade for like four straight years now

and every fake trade I've done. So we'll see if that materializes. And if it does, we're obviously going to have an opportunity to unpack all of those details then. If you want to help us out, smash that five-star button wherever you listen to the show. Join us in the PDOCAST Discord as well. And we'll be back on Sunday with the Sunday special.

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