The Hockey PDOcast - Breaking Down the Elias Lindholm Trade to Vancouver

Episode Date: February 1, 2024

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Ryan Lambert to break down the Elias Lindholm trade. They talk about his value as a player, the fit on the Canucks, and the direction of the Flames. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filipovich. Welcome to the HockeyPedocast. My name is Dmitra Filipovich, and joining me is my good buddy, Ryan Lambert, R.L. What's going on, man? I'm chilling. That's great. You might need to carry us today. Last night, I kind of lost my voice, which obviously isn't ideal for talking about hockey for an hour.

And I don't mean, like, losing my smile. Like, Sean Michaels, I mean, like, I, like, I, like, I, I, like, I, I, like, I, I, I literally lost my voice and I was struggling. This morning, I've been mashing lozenges like, like Alainvignon behind the bench. So hopefully we can make it work, but I couldn't take a day off today because we've got an actual trade to discuss. And it's an interesting one at that with a lot of layers, a big name involved that goes off all of our trade board lists. And so we're going to unpack it. And if you are, if you're a fan of the written word still, and I think some people still are, right?

People subscribe to and read EP Rings signs. I hope so. But I think people like to consume, you know, audio content while they're doing chores around the house, while they're driving to and from work while they're at the gym, all that stuff. And that's why they listen to a show like this. So we're going to unpack all of it here. But if you want to go and read a more, a kind of dense written breakdown, JD, let me write 3,000 words last night on this trade at E.P.Rink side. And I think it's unlocked for everyone to read. So go check that out. But we're going to kind of reinforce a lot of those topics here today. So let's have some fun. And let's see how far we can take this.

I thought it'd be good to break it down into three segments, starting with Oise Landholm, the player. And then we could talk to the Connacht's perspective, which I think is more interesting for the purposes of this year, certainly. And then we can talk a little bit about the flames at the end, but neither you or I, as much as you're the RRI guy. We're not really prospects people, right? We leave that stuff to our colleagues at E.P. Rinkside. So we're going to save all analysis of that for them, but we'll talk a little bit about what it means for the flames. Let's start with with Linholm. I think kind of turn into a bit of a polarizing player, right?

it feels like his perceived value around the league is dipped. I think what did him a bit of a disservice beyond the sort of season he's having right now is when those reports came out at the start of the year about how much money both him and Noah Hanifin were offered to stay in Calgary and they turned it down. And there was some sticker shock I think involved with like seeing the actual figures and being like, whoa, how much money is this guy going to get paid into his 30s? And so I think we have that in the back of our minds. And I think everyone is ready to absolutely hate whatever contract extension he signs this summer, right, with whoever he winds up signing with.

And we're all going to be like, this is a bad deal, too much money, too much term. This is a bad investment. And I think that has kind of clouded our judgment a little bit about what he actually represents right now for a team like the Canucks or whoever would have trained him this year, traded for him this year, because I think he's still a very useful player, certainly. It's just it. Yes. We're all kind of ready to take this extreme stance against disliking his next contract,

which doesn't really, it shouldn't factor into our evaluation of him for the final 33 games of the regular season and the playoffs. Yeah, well, the other thing I think is important to say about him and how he's perceived is, you know, the last season, Goddrow and Kachuk were in Calgary. He scored 40-something goals. You know, everybody's like, and this is the future of the Calgary Flames. You run this guy up the middle as your number one center. You might not be getting 40 goals every year, but you're getting a lot of production. And you trade those guys and suddenly he goes back to being like a 60-ish point player. And that's life, you know, that's, he was never going to, I don't remember.

But he also had like a huge shooting percentage that season, and ask the Canucks about that, I guess. But it was just this thing of like, that season when he played with two all-star to MVP caliber wingers, it really feels like that elevated his stock in such a way that when he only has 60-something points last year, it was like, what's going on with this bum?

He stinks now. And he's on pace to do, I think, to be even less productive now as the talent level in Calgary continues to kind of degrade, I guess you would say. Well, he certainly... I think that is coloring.

But part of the, his appeal is that he's sort of this like play connector who fills in the gaps and does less glamorous stuff off the puck, right? And so when the plays he's connecting are two of the best playmakers in the game at the peak of their powers, but in that season you're describing

with Johnny Goddrow and Matthew Kuchok, all of a sudden that looks a lot different than, you know, Igor Sharon Goovich this year and whatever version we're getting of Jonathan Hubert O and whoever he's playing with over the past year and a half, right? And so the 42 goals he scored that year certainly represent like extreme outlier. I do think though, like he's played five years in Calgary beyond full seasons, not including this one, right? If you even removed that one career year where he scored the 42 goals, in the other four seasons in Calgary, he's averaged 20. 28 goals per 82 games and he shot 14.5% in them.

Now, if he were shooting 14.5% this year, he'd have 19 goals in 49 games and he'd be around a 30 goal base and we'd be like, yeah, this is who he is, this is who he's been for his entire career. And so it's very unfortunate that this is happening in such a high leverage season for him. And part of it might be that he's 29 now and approaching a different stage of his career. And he's a, he's a player that has a little more, uh, line mate dependency,

then I think you would want an $8 million player to beat. No, I completely agree with that. And I think the point I was trying to make, though. They're not to many favors, yeah. No, but go ahead. People are quick to point out that 42 goals was an aberration. I also think this is a bit of an aberration as well, right? And so I've seen it.

Oh, for sure it is. Yeah. Well, if this is the price you get for him, he's only got the 32 points and nine goals. Tom Monaghan has, what, 13 goals and 35 points? Adam Henrique has 15 goals and 33 points. What are those guys going to get paid then? And it's like, I don't know, less because they're not as good.

I'm not used to these 49 games to evaluate what a Laslan home is. Now, and I think there's also a difference that we should point out between fan perception, I guess, of this and how he's probably viewed around the league, where he still plays a premium position. And I think there's very few alternatives that move the needle at that position if you're not going to get him. And also, sure, a lot of these things that he has a reputation for or the profile he has as a player is something teams covet around postseason time. Right. And so like all of that I think still made his value pretty high around the league, even though I feel like if you just go on Twitter, the way people talk about him probably doesn't align with that. Yeah. And, you know, I. obviously I have a lot of friends who work in the Boston media and a lot of their reaction was well now the Bruins are getting that guy.

I don't know what they're doing. You know, so it's not like even though his value is perhaps lessened because he's maybe on performing a little bit this year. It's not like he wasn't a coveted player by very good teams. The Bruins and the Canucks are tied for the league leading points right now, right? So these are two teams that really wanted this guy. And he's a guy who I think where the higher-end teams can put him versus where Calgary is putting him, yes, you know, in a position to succeed.

It's a completely different story. Undoubtedly, like, yeah, we're going to talk about the fit with the Canucks later. But if he's playing with Elias Pedersen in a 5-on-5, but then he's in that bumper spot on that power play, that looks a little bit different for his skill set as a guy who stands in the slot. and shoots offensively. That looks a little bit different in that scenario than what he's been playing with this past year.

I think the other point of water make about him is it's a bit tricky to evaluate him because this is like the first year, I believe that he's getting outscored a 5-15, right? And the defensive metrics have plummeted a little bit. But I think we all expected post-Sutter that there'd be a regression in that regard for this team, for this flames team, right? Of what, for anything you want to say about his interactions with players and how he'd worn out his welcome and all that stuff, certainly. he's established quite a track record of inflating his team's 5-1-5 performance, especially

with the defensive metrics, and they've plummeted. I had Kevin Woodley on last week, and I've mentioned this a few times now, but it just blew my mind. Like, ClearSight Analytics has Jacob Markstrom's expected say percentage this season at 874 based on the workload he's faced? And my reaction to Kevin was like, first off, I think that's a bit extremely low, because if he had an 8-70 for his 8 percentage right now, like, he wouldn't be in the league anymore. You'd be like, wow, this is

unbelievable. And now he has like a 9-10 or whatever, and he's played really well, and I think that's why there's going to be so much talk about him at the deadline. But I don't think we should understand, I guess, how much things have fallen off in Calgary, but in terms of the things that Linholm actually does well theoretically as well around him,

that have kind of, I think, dragged him down along the way. And so I think a lot of the stuff we value about him, right, like shooting from the slot, faceoffs, uh, penalty killing, like not taking penalties, like lineup flexibility in terms of playing center for the Canucks. I think all of that stuff is still in play. And I don't know, has your opinion on him as a player changed this season through these 49

games compared to where like this caught, if we had been having this conversation in the summer before we saw this? Um, no. And for all the reasons you, you've kind of said earlier, right? Where it's just like, he's shooting 7%. Yeah. You know? And to, much like you could say, well, he was never going to score, like be a consistent 40 goal guy.

He's also not going to be a consistent 20 goal guy. You know, all things being equal this season. As you said, if he was shooting the average of what he shot in Calgary, he'd be, you know, in a position where nobody's questioning this deal. So I I find it very difficult to To sit there and say generally speaking Like this guy who's on a not very good team

Who used to be really good and is on a not very good team And it seems like he's suffering He's just not being put in a position where You know like the flames just cannot insulate him The way they did two, three years ago. They just can't do it. You saw it last year, and now you're seeing it this year, coupled with an extremely low shooting percentage. Well, I think the question of whether he's worth, like as we pivot here and talk about the Canucks angle of this,

I think the question of whether he's worth the price they paid as a rental this season and justifying that cost, the rest of the way this year playing for them, is an entirely different conversation than the one we're going to have in the summer, which I kind of hinted at earlier about whoever picks up the tab on him and signs him to an eight-year deal that takes- Yeah, I don't want to be involved in that deal, right? Like, I'm going to, I'm going to dislike that for anyone because it just got to be a bad bet. That has nothing to do with this thing. And it's funny, like Pierre LeBrodden tweeted, you know, there's been no talks of an extension with the Canucks like this is purely a rental. We've seen Chris Johnson say, like, this is a big showcase for him as he figures to be the top free agent

this summer. I forget who it was. I think it might have been Darren Dregor or someone noted that the flames had sort of like the Canucks showed a lot of interest recently a couple days ago and then the flames circled back to all the teams they talked to previously and pretty much all of them were cool with him being a pure rental except for one who wanted to talk extension with him and then the fact that they couldn't they just kind of checked out of the bidding. I think I think the fact that he's a rental here like we sort of acquit we have this conversation every trade deadline where it's like, man, you don't want to be giving up too many futures for a rental that and because you might lose in round one and then all of a sudden you have nothing

to really show for it. In this case, the fact that the Canucks aren't in a position to even consider being the team that picks up that tab on them and that extension is a feature, not a bug for me, if you know what I mean? Like it's totally. Absolutely. I'm like, because of their current situation where, and we can talk about this a little bit, like they have to sign petters in the summer. they have to sign Heronic. There's going to be a lot of roster turnover on this team. A lot of the guys have in career years now are just going to price themselves out of Vancouver

because they just won't be able to retain everyone. I think that's actually kind of a good thing. It almost saves them from themselves in a way. And so in this case, the fact that we're just viewing this purely based on what happens the rest of the season and then thank you for your service. You go on elsewhere and good luck to you and the team that signs you. I actually think that's like a good thing from Vancouver's perspective,

as opposed to the framing of, oh, man, this is just a rental. Yeah, and I think it's probably also good from, from Linholm's perspective as far as motivation goes, because it's like, I have to kill it in Vancouver, or else I'm not going to get that at $8 million. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think he's going to probably get it regardless. It would just be looking at the free age of course. Yeah. But, well, I mean, if he kind of flops, I think that might, that might affect.

things, but you're right. I mean, there's always one sucker out there. There's always, there's always someone who's going to come along and, and give you the, uh, who's the guy and signed it in Anaheim this year and then immediately got hurt. Clorne out of the sclorn, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Um, the thing that I liked about this from the Canucks perspective, and it's remarkable because I wrote up the Bohorbat trade last year with, and we were one day off from like exactly a calendar year between these two trades. And at the time, I lauded the Canucks for the trade they made, which was nearly like a carbon copy of this one, right? It was pretty much. They traded a center who they weren't going to pay

for a first, a prospect, and a winger with one year of salary owed. And now they didn't wind up using that first because they traded it for, for Philoponic a few weeks later. But the reason why I like that deal for their perspective is like, finally this organization has a good grasp of where it stands in the league's hierarchy. It realizes it needs to make a move like this to stop just spinning its wheels in the mud and actually do something different, right? And it understands where it's at relative to the rest of the teams. And in this case, and this is, I think, the biggest testament you could say to just what a magical year that connects have had so far and how much they've turned things around. I like this deal again for them, even though it's the exact opposite,

because I think it once again shows a good grasp of where they're, you know, and it's a good grasp of where they're at and what they need to accomplish this season, right? And so it's remarkable that both of those statements are true considering their exact opposite, and it's been such a short window for this turnaround. But I really feel that that's the case. Yeah, I mean, it's not a, it's not a mystery that the reason the conducts are so good is because the, the, the goalies they've faced have been 870 all year, basically. And so the Canucks are just never going to be in this position at this point in the season with this group, again, probably, in all likelihood, right? Like they don't have the greatest prospect pool that they're going to be able to pull, you know, good contributors from to keep this going year after year.

Nobody, nobody basically is as good as the Canucks have been for most of this season. And so you got to do what you can, especially, again, with the understanding that they're going to have to make some major structural changes to the group over the summer. You got to do what you can to ensure that these outsized results can be as sustainable as possible. And to bring in a Lindholm, a guy who, it sounds like we both like pretty well, but not to the extent that they should keep. keep him around, I guess. To bring him in, that only makes sense. Like, they had, they had to go out and get somebody and it wouldn't have been just like, ah, look, we got this second pairing defenseman or whatever.

You had to go out and get a guy who could, who could play on your top power play unit, who could take second line minutes, you know, and compliment your, your best players. because look at where the two teams were the two Canucks teams were in the standings when these trades were made, right? I don't remember where they were last year, but it was very obvious they weren't making the playoffs. And then this year, they're the number one team in the league.

And yeah, it just seems to me that this is this is the right way to go about it with a team that's kind of at this spot in its collective agent curve. Well, I think they did as about a good of a job as you can hope for. And I think this is a tricky thing for management groups and teams in general to manage, is they kind of straddled two different timelines with one move here, because I think they clearly improve their team the rest of the season. Like, I really like Linholm as a fit of them specifically.

but they also caught off Kuzmanko's $5.5.5 million next year, which was going to be a problem for them based on what had happened with him this season and how he'd like fall out of Rick Tocke's good graces and his percentages regressed as we expected. And they would have had to pay just to get off that money. Like that wasn't an asset. And so in this case, they cleared $5.5 valuable million on cap space next year to make all of these roster turnover decisions they're going to deal with more palatable. And they also improve their team. And That's, I think, a really impressive thing in this grand scheme of things, especially when I just become so used to judging everything this organization did under Jim Bedding as like, man,

he can't even like walk and chew gum at the same time. And in this case, they're like actually doing these two things at once. And maybe that's a low bar to clear comparing it to that previous regime. But it's still, I think, sure, very encouraging for like our evaluations of the Canucks viability beyond, you know, the PDO and everything moving forward. that there's reasons for hope that like they actually do have a good sense of what's going on around the league as opposed to where they were previously at. So I think that's notable. Let's talk a little bit about the Canucks then.

So you mentioned their first point percentage, their first in raw points in the West. I think part of the intrigue for this trade for me is the timing of it, the fact that they did it this far out of the deadline. Because not only do I think that two teams they're going to battle for first in the West, which is Winnipeg, who there's six points up on with two games in hand, and Colorado, who they're up four points on with the same number of games played, would have been the top two Elias Linholm teams, in my opinion, if the Canucks didn't get. They were saying, yeah, they were saying Linholm to Colorado for months.

Yeah. Yeah, so I think they would have been heavily in it, and they're up 12 points on Edmonton in the Pacific, and Edmonton has four games in hand. Now, by trading for Linholm now, comparative, they'd waited until March 8th, they get 16 extra games, theoretically, of him in their lineup. And the reason why I think that's important is it's very rare. I know like best laid plans in that HL, right? Like you can try to map things out and then you get to the playoffs and you play a theoretically worse team and their goalie gets hot and beats you and you're like, man, that sucked. That did not go the way we thought. But you just

look at the two sort of roadmaps here for the Canucks. And one is finishing first in the West playing the second wildcard, which is going to be Arizona, Nashville, or Seattle, most likely. And then in round two, having home ice against the winner of Vegas and Edmonton, and they're probably going to beat each other up for seven games. And it's like, all right,

home ice against the kind of more banged up team. I think they've got at least a bunch of chance here. Whereas if they regress and fall off in the final 33 games and fall into a second or third seed in the Pacific, most likely second because they have such a big gap, all of a sudden it becomes so much more challenging, right? And so I think it actually, the value of having as good of a final 33 games as they can to secure a one seat in the West is about as imperative for a team as I can really remember in terms of like the alternative. Yeah, and again, it's just a thing of like everybody knows that these results are outsized for the Canucks.

most teams that when the president's trophy have gotten outsized results relative to how well they've played. But the Canucks do seem like an extreme example. Again, you know, to contextualize how good it is, the average goaltending they've faced so far this season is 870, right? Like, that's what the math works out to and that you're not going to score on 13% of your shots all year. So you need to go out and you need to get a player who's going to help, like, improve, your team such that the results are a little more sustainable in terms of the process and all that kind of thing. And I'm very curious to see how they use Lindholm. Like you said, they could use them as the complimentary player for Petterson. Or they could, I think they could use them as a kind of

second line center option and, you know, kind of just shuffle everybody down the lineup a little bit. There's kind of no wrong way to approach it with with him for now anyway. Obviously, we're going to see in like a week when they actually put him in the lineup. But yeah, just getting out and jumping the line and getting this guy for as many games as possible, especially if you don't have to pay a premium for them, because I don't feel like they paid a premium. We'll talk about that in a minute, I guess. but I think I think this is this is like you said it not only imperative but just like really smart to to get out in front of it like this. Well, you don't think anybody saw this coming.

No, well, you know what acquiring him does? It guarantees that Elias Lin or Elias Pedersen, sorry, it's too many Elias is now. They're loading up has a top line made to play with that can actually match him. Sure. because there were stretches this year where he was playing with like mckeyev kuzmanko like sam laffertie at some point like they were just trying to find stuff to work with him and we've seen that lot align with him and j t miller and brock bester they've been really good offensively i'm a bit worried about them defensively uh but then you're right then you have a laslan home

on a more sort of defensively or into second line i actually love the idea of putting the two liaises together because i think not only can they be mutually beneficial in terms of like making each other's lives easier, but also get the best out of each other. Because I think what, sure, what's kind of limited Pedersen so far is because of his linemates, he's had to do everything. And so that starts in his own zone and then like just retrieving possession and then working it up the ice. And then by the time you get there, it's like, all right, I'm pretty gas. This has been a long shift. But also now I have to try and score. And in this case, Lidholm can do a lot of that stuff. And then when they get into the offensive zone,

pretty good combo of like passing and playmaking with a guy who stands in the slot and shoots and at least previously before this year has scored on those shots at a high rate. And so it's like, yeah, I think those two guys are going to rock together. So it gives you a good player regardless playing with Pedersen, whether it's JT. Miller or Moore, Linholm. And that's the most important part of this for me. Like this summer, they essentially have to convince as Patterson design an eight-year deal. If they don't, it's a disaster. Like if he goes, let's say he decides, all I want to do is a three-year deal. It'll take me to 28 years old.

I'll be a UFA then. Quinn Hughes's deal also expires that year. I think this is the best way for me to map out my career financially. I wouldn't blame him for it, but that would really suck for the Canucks. And I don't think he will do that. Sure. But in this case, it's like if we have a good playoff run and also you get to play with a cool player that makes you better, even though he won't be here next year, at least.

You're going to have some fun. We're going to be riding the good vibes. and then you sign an eight-year deal, and then we can figure stuff out next year and beyond, whereas if they hadn't done anything and you go into the playoffs and you lose in round one where he's miserable playing with inferior linemates, it's a bit trickier to get him to sign in the dotted line for that period of time, right? So I think in this case, like, you're making your team better, part of you're also hopefully accomplishing the ultimate goal, which is convincing this guy that he should be

a caduct for pretty much the rest of his career. Yeah, that, I mean, you know, he's, He's one of my favorite players in the league and certainly one of the most talented. So I, you know, I'd be moving heaven and earth to get this guy to stick around. And yeah, anything you can do to just make him think, oh, okay, Canucks management is competent now. This is a big change for me. That's a positive. Yeah.

Actually convince him that he's going to get help and he's going to have fun playing hockey here. Yep. Those are important things. in terms of getting a player to decide that he wants to stay. Okay. All right, let's take a break here. And then when we come back, we'll do one more note that I have on the Canox,

and then we'll talk about the flames. And maybe if we have time at the end, take a few mailbag questions. You're listening to the HockeyPedio cast streaming on the Sports Night Radio Network. All right, we're back here in the HockeyPedio cast with Ryan Lambert. We are doing a Elias Linholm,

deep dive RL, flash the thumbs up, even though this is a audio-only show. But I think just from my reference, just know that he's good to do and he's having a good time. So I think he'll have that feels the same. Okay. One final note on the Canucks before we pivot here a little bit, we mentioned kind of in passing.

And I think all conversations about this team this season have been centered around their PDO, and I think understandably so, right? Like what they're doing. Yes, it has to be. It's a historical footnote through 50 games because since 2007, there's been, more teams by my account before this season to have a P.O of 103 or higher at 515?

Yeah. The 09 Bruins, 103. The 2010 Washington Capitals 103.3. The 2013 Leafs and the short and lockout season 103.3. And then last year's Bruins, 103.6. Now, what wound up happening to those teams in the playoffs is pretty tragic. And I think maybe a little... The little better feel, right? Like that that, that, that, that, first Bruins team did actually win a playoff round, but then I think they lost game seven in overtime at home to the hurricanes that year. The 2010 caps got upset by Yaro Halak, right, and the Canadians. The Leafs blew that. It was 4-1 game, and then last year's plan is I think still fresh in our minds is what happened with them. Now, this year's Canucks are a 104.5

with that perspective. The Bruins are a 103.5, I should say, and the jets are a 103.1.1. So they got some competition. In that regard, I think generally betting on some sort of regression to happen at some point has been a lucrative proposition. And this is why we look at these things as indicators care about them. I do think it has clouded a little bit, though. And I've totally come around on this team watching them as the season's gone along, and maybe that's me falling victim to it.

But I do feel like they've improved as the year has gone along. And I think their underlying markers certainly reflect that. to an extent. And the way they've played in particular, and it's been, they've been allowed to play that way because they've just been leading so often. And I've been talking about that a lot on this show. But it's allowed them to play a very certain way under Rick Tocky where they're just controlling shot quality to an obscene extent compared to the regular shot attempts and shot on goal metrics. And Sporologic, for example, helps paint that picture, right? Like defensively, They're sixth in expected goals against.

They give up the fewest rush chances. Offensively, they're only 27th in shots, but their fourth and offensive zone possession time. They're seventh in inner slot shots and they're 12, I believe, unexpected goals generated. And so you look at that and it gives you an outline of a team that is pretty promising, right? Certainly I don't think their play has warranted being first in the league in terms of point percentage, but I also don't think this is one of those things where maybe 10,

games, 15, 20 games into the year, we were like, oh, I just, this is an impending disaster where it's just going to completely fall off a map. I think there are underlying indicators that suggest improvement and making a move like this, I think will help in that regard. So I just kind of wanted to point that out, because I think we did a few drive-bys in terms of being like, well, they're not actually as good as their record indicates. And what? No, hold on, hold on. you don't have to couch it like this. Are they going to shoot 13% and get 915 goal attending all year?

Yes or no question? No, because almost certainly, no. Bingo. And so the idea that like, oh, you're just not watching the Canucks. You're not, you're not, you're not seeing all the things. When you see the puck go in the net, your brain processes

everything that led up to the puck going into the net as they did the right thing right right and when you don't and when you see the goalie make a save you process not everything because you know you can see when a guy like falls down trying to make a pinch or something like that you see everything that happens

that led up to the goalie making that save and go well it all worked down so it's all good and that's not that's not even like a conscious decision you're making That's a subconscious thing. Buck goes in, that's good. Everything that worked is good about it. And so, like, you're just not allowed to say to a Vancouver fan right now. Well, I mean the PDO, like, it's crazy.

I keep saying it. They have faced 870 goal tend to this year. That's ridiculous to expect that to continue. And yet they're like, yeah, but what, you know, what are you going to realize? No, I don't have to realize anything. thing. I realize 870 is not going to last. This is a good team. All the

numbers you just read suggest this is an above average but certainly not like elite team in the league, right? And to me an elite team is like 105 points or something like that. You got to get to 100 points for me to

consider you had a good season. Broadly speaking, elite team a little more than that. And this is a lot of is a good but not elite team that is getting beyond elite results right now. And again, what the Lindholm trade does is just helps them be a little bit more good than they have been. That's it.

We, we, we don't, you don't have to couch it the way, the way all these Vancouver people want you to couch it. No, then we can just go, come on, man. Like you, it's the same thing of the islanders or, or, or, or, or, you, you can just go. Colorado or the Leafs or whoever. The team that has the 103 PDO everyone goes

well all those other teams it didn't work out for them and obviously it wasn't going to but this team it is and here's why and it's like let me stop you right there partner we don't have to play these games we don't have to pretend like that. Yeah. No I agree with that I just think it goes too far the other way though

as well like you're pointing out convince fans being offensive about it. I also think it gets viewed as like a bad thing in a way. It's kind of like on a different scale, the conversation we constantly have about how players who are good on the power play, it somehow has turned into a thing where it's used against them now, where it's like, this guy has a powerplay merchant. It's like, oh, is scoring goals actually bad? Like that's the way it's almost, you know, come out these days now, right? Where it's like, oh, if you're scoring a lot, but it's on the power play, then it doesn't count the same when in reality on the scoreboard it does. In this case, the only reason I brought that up

is because I think if a team that I didn't think was actually good was trading away a first and a prospect for a player who I don't think is a legitimate superstar, I'd be like, what are you trying to accomplish here? You're being fooled. And I just think that's a bad bet. Absolutely. In this case, I think this is a team that is certainly in the running with a lot of the other top West teams and they just got a little bit better. And I think in their case, they very reasonably could justify making this type of deal. That's all I'm saying. I just think sometimes like a little perspective on that is important. If you know, no, I mean, I mean, we, we said it, right? Like, this is the year. The Caducs will almost certainly never have a better year than this with

this group, right? That just goes without saying that this group, if I'm not mistaken, is better points percentage than the Canucks teams that won the president's trophy. So the idea that this is the best team in Canucks history in terms of winning the games, you absolutely

have to go out and provide that help. We said it earlier, you know? It's, it's I believe you use the word imperative. It was imperative that they do something to buoy these results and make them a little more sustainable.

Yeah, no, I think, yeah, some nuance on it is important from both sides, right? The interesting thing, though, is the first they give up. Let's talk a little bit over the flames, because the first they give up, I believe last year's Colorado team wandered division and then lost in round one, right? And their first round pick wound up being 27th overall. And if that does happen to this Canucks team and then the pick winds up in that range, that is essentially the value of a second round pick. If you look at any sort of chart in terms of probability of that player turning into

a legitimate NHLR, and between now and March 8th, we're going to see second round picks get traded back and forth, like their candy on Halloween. And no one really blinks an eye or thinks twice about it, but because you see that first round pick thing, it's like, wow, they gave up a first rounder. And I think it's a good get for Calgary. Like, right, we talked about how this point.

players value had plummeted relatively compared to maybe where it had been previously. And they got a few assets that they can talk themselves into being interesting moving forward as this hopefully kickstarts an extreme directional shift for them as an organization. And so I like it for them. I don't think they got fleeced by any means. Like I think it was a very fair trade in that regard. But I also think that the price was was pretty reasonable. I don't think like you see it initially in the tweet that comes out. It's like, wow, the Canucks gave up all this stuff and they gave up a conditional fourth and all that and it's like yeah but in the grand scheme of things i don't think those assets are nearly as meaningful to them as you'd probably think no for sure a guy they

they didn't want in in kuzbek go uh a you know a b plus maybe a minus prospect a first round pick that's probably going to be in the mid to late 20s if if things go as we kind of expect them to and a fourth round pick that is conditioned on, I believe the Canucks making the Western Conference final, which if they do that, what do they care about a fourth round pick, right? So it's all very disposable stuff for the Canucks, as you say.

I think the thing that depressed the value relative to what Calgary might have wanted for the player is the fact that they just, um, as a matter of like, uh, principal, just don't seem to whatever want to retain salary at all. Yeah. But do you think that would have really significantly changed the price either way? Because Lynn Holmes, I mean, it depends already low enough. Yeah. I, it just depends how much they were willing to retain, you know, if it's like 10% or whatever,

probably not. If it's 25 or 33 or. or 50. Yeah, I think that does materially affect, you know, what the asking price is. But, you know, they're just never going to do that. They have like a pathological commitment to not retaining, I think they've done it one time ever as an organization. So the Flames just weren't going to do that. It was like a non-starter, basically. And so this is, I think, a reasonable price if you're not, if you're not keeping some money. Yeah, I think it's kind of in line with recent trades we've seen as well, whether it is the Horvett one we mentioned or Ryan O'Reilly last year as well, right?

It seems kind of in mind what you'd expect for the most part. I think the flames did fine here. I think if this, you mentioned like unwillingness to retain. I mean, I think that's much more interesting when it comes to, I doubt they would for Markstrom because he has two more years after this one and that's a lot of money to take on, especially a significant percentage. But once you get into the Hanifil, or I think there was, we haven't even mentioned it, there was some thought for a period of time there last night, that TANAB would be part of this deal as well, and it seems like the Canucks might circle back at some point, and that would be interesting as well for them. But if they decide to retain on those two guys, I think particularly Hanofin,

because there's teams who are very cap-strapped, and I know he has a pretty low cap-at himself under $5 million, but if you can bring that down even further and all of a sudden talk a team that's very up against it, like, I don't know, I know they need to write shot a bit more, but like the lightning or someone that all of a sudden otherwise would have no means of improving, but suddenly you can actually bring that down quite a bit and make it palatable for them.

I think that would be interesting usage of their resources, but you seem kind of less than convinced that they're actually going to be willing to go that far in terms of maximizing their return. They just never do it. I believe the number is they have retained salary one time in the history of the salary. cap. So that's a long track record of just, again, like being ideologically, like, we don't do that. But I guess, you know, the thing about the flames, too, is that one of the other things they don't do is ideologically, they don't tear it down, right? Like they've always just been kind of like, we're going to be, when we're bad, we're going to be like the, you know, 19th best team in the league instead of as bad as they maybe should be.

To, you know, it feels like the end of the line for this group, even though Craig Conroy is apparently still going like, hey, no, if you want to resign here. Yeah, I don't get the commitment to this group. I've said this a million times, but, you know, I guess we'll, I guess we'll see. Well, those two, those two concepts are kind of related though, right? The ideal will is to lose money and kind of just the desire to stay as mid as possible. I mean, this team is 22, 22 at 5 with a minus two cool differential. Like, it's literally as, as mid as the kids say, as you can get. And pretty much, that's.

That's sad. But they have a chance to do something impactful moving forward if they wind up actually monetizing Hanifin, Tanev. I mean, Markstrom, you could talk yourself into Manjupani and Coleman. I don't know. I just, I'm curious to see how they approach that. I think the fact that they, I know they took back Kuzumenko, I almost view that as like part of getting the first and the pick and everything. Like, I don't, they might wind up trading him down the road if they can Rupidalize his production a little bit, either this year or into next year. But I don't view him as them seeing Kuzmeiko as a legitimate asset. I just view that as a throw-in to help the Knoch's make the money work, in which case they prioritize the futures, and I do think that is a bit encouraging

because there was some speculation at the start of the year that it's like, oh, well, Columbus needs a center. What if, you know, you go with Jack Roselich and Andrew Peek and like all all these random guys that are NHO players. And it's like, ah, if they went that route, that would be incredibly bleak. At least in this case, you can kind of talk yourself into this being step one of like a three or four step trade deadline that actually helps them moving forward. So I guess it's kind of a TBD for them in that regard. Yeah, I mean, this is one of those trades where, you know, if you could get the truth serum

going and like force Craig Conroy to be honest with you, I'd be really curious. to see what he thinks whose Manko's future is in the organization. Because, yeah, he was like a rookie last year technically, but he's also like 27, 28 years old now. And he's signed for one more year and

if the, well, I'll put it this way. If the flames are thinking, well, look, we'll just resign him. I don't think that's what they can. I would hope it's not. But like, again, the, the commitment to being made at worst, you know, even if they are doing the thing

of trying to maximize their draft picks and that kind of thing, it wouldn't, it wouldn't shock me at all if they were like, oh, and of course, we gotta keep this guy around. You know, he had 27 goals that one time. Or whatever, 47, right?

He scored a ton last year. Yeah. He did. He scored a ton. with insane percentages, right? I think I wrote it was... Yeah, I looked it up earlier in the show. It was like 27 and a half percent or something like that. Yeah.

Crazy. Yeah. Well, I think he's got a legitimate skill, and I don't think it's as bad as it's looked this year. Obviously, it wasn't as good as it looked last year. I do think... For sure, I was like, one of the big player. He's one of the slowest players in the league, though.

And so that is this idea, like, daily faceoff right now has him listed on a top line with Jonathan Hubertoe and Azam Cadry. And I'm like, oh, man. That is, that's going to be a tough watch. So, that's say a stylistic fit. Let's put it sound. Yeah. Oh.

Just being extremely slow. It's going to really, you don't have to worry about him being able to keep up with his line mates, you know? Yeah. Jonathan, I know you really enjoyed playing with Anthony Duclair. Here's the exact opposite in Andreke's Make-Doh. Right. Yeah.

Well, we'll see. It was funny last night. There was also a period of time, right, where it's always interesting how these, how these trades sort of trickle out. It starts with the talks are intensifying from Elliot Friedman, right? Then you just start seeing, you know, it would have a bit of a face all over your timeline. And then, yes, there was a bit of a period of time where it's like, well, the flames are on his no trade list. And it's funny just with a little bit of inside knowledge of that.

And as he's being represented by Dan Milstein, who represents a lot of the Russian players. And also, like, there's a joke here locally in Vancouver, just like how entrenched he is, with all the players he represents for them and everything, and he helped facilitate this doork trade to Vancouver. It's like there was zero percent chance the Dan Milsene. Even because Vancouver is like, I don't really want to go. Like, I like Vancouver. He notably likes the sushi here and it's a winning team.

I don't really want to go to Calgary. There was zero percent chance that Dan Milstein was allowing that to happen. So I love the kind of inside baseball there. All right, anything else on this trade? We've got like five minutes left here. So I guess we could do a quick mailbag one, unless you have any other sort of notes to put a bow on this on this trade talk i guess i don't all right let's do let's do a fun one so you you got fired up with there with with a pdo talk

nothing fires might be like quite like talking about the carolina hurricanes so okay here's one to hopefully elicit a same reaction out of me uh it's from the discord server go join the uh go join the channel it's in the invite link is in the show notes as we always say free x jcc says with Richard Ganderson potentially returning, what do the hurricanes need to address ahead of the trade deadline to get over the hump and be considered a bona fide cup commander? I'd like, I mean, you're the hurricanes guy. I'd love to hear your aunt. Can we just recycle all of my takes from the past like four years for this question? Yeah, I mean, that is. It's the same old story, right? I mean, first and shots, 10th and goals. Now their power play is up to third.

goals per hour behind only Tampa Bay and Edmonton and they've been really good and Sebastian Ajo is playing at a really high level so the fact that you know they're 30th and team save percentage and yet there's still 12 and fewest goals against or something just it's it's it really is the same as it's been and I think they're going to be hanging around I think they're going to be really annoying to play against I think when they bump into a team it's either really strategic defensively or just has a goalie playing at a high level, they're going to bump into the same issues. And so I think they actually are a cup contender as much as I hate to admit it, just because the East is pretty open. And I think they have quite a high baseline in that regard

to beat a lot of these teams. But I would like at some point to see them really just take a big swing. I know they spent a lot of money on Demit Shorlob and Michael Bunton this past summer, but I'd like to see them actually just bring in someone who, meaning, fully can create high danger shots for them and take a big home run cut doing so. And I don't know if that player is available right now at the deadline or if that's more of a summer move, but that's pretty much the answer that I've had for them for the past couple years. And I haven't really seen anything this year that makes me sway from that.

I'm hard to disagree with anything you said, obviously. But I'm trying to think, when's the last time we were like, you know, the hurricanes have is a, or what they have is a lethal finish shirt? Well, they try to with Patcherrida, even though he's more of a volume shooter, right? And then he tore his Achilles twice. Right. Yeah. But, okay, so taking the eight games they got out of Max Pateretti off the board,

when's the last time? Like, are we going back to like early day? Like, you know, when, like, Eric Stahl had 50 goals that one time or whatever? Yeah. It's, it's a lot. No, look, there's a lot of teams that are like, boy, I wish we had like a guy who could consistently put the puck in the net very easily. There are plenty of teams

like that. But I don't know that there's one that historically hits, I guess you'd say Jeff Skinner, but again, like not that's not really the kind of player we're talking about. Um, but yeah, and I mean, how long ago was Jeff

Skinner there like seven, eight years ago? It's been a long time now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know it canes. All right. Yeah, well, let's get. Let's get out of here. I'll let you get some stuff here.

Have you started doing your trade law yet, or is that going to happen soon? I literally send it to JD today. I'm going to start that today. Now that like an actual big trade has happened, I'm going to start it today. And I'll write two paragraphs or whatever. Maybe be a little more than that. But yeah, I'll get that started in the next, I don't know, five or six hours. Nice. Maybe probably by the time you hear this, I will have pumped that out.

Well, hopefully, we keep you busy over the next month and hopefully there's some fun stuff for you to, to write up. I will be doing, you're going to be doing that. We're going to be collaborating on some stuff. I'm sure I will be doing the full deep dives on the bigger trades. And yeah, the coverage at EP ringside is going to be really good. So if you haven't subscribed yet, I highly recommend you do so and you can get access to both mine and RL's work. and go follow two-line pass on Twitter. Check out all the content he bugs out. Join the Discord server, which I mentioned earlier. We're going to be doing some fun stuff head of the trade deadline there as well. Go check out the YouTube channel. I just did a Matt Barzal episode with Daryl Belfrey,

and we'll be back with plenty more of the HockeyPedio cast as always streaming on the Sports Night Radio Network.