The Hockey PDOcast - CBJ’s Russian Line, Devils Changes, and Brunette’s Impact

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Jack Han to talk about how the Blue Jackets are (mis)using Voronkov and their Russian Line, what changes we can expect from the Devils following Lindy Ruff's firing, the job Andrew Brunette has done in Nashville, and quantifying impact by defensemen.This podcast was produced by Dominic Sramaty. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the Hockey PEDEOCast. My name is Dimitri Vilippovich. And joining me is my good buddy, Jack Hahn, Jack. What's going on, man? We're back. We're back in a big way. The sun is out. You know, spring is already here. Like, I'm feeling good right now. Yeah, this is going to be a fun one. We got a fun show ahead of us. We got some big picture topics in terms of like development and coaching and tactics. and all that stuff. We got a coaching change to discuss in New Jersey.

And we've got a wealth of great mailbag questions from the Discord listeners as well. So we're going to try to get through all that today. Let's start with a topic near and dear to my heart. It is Dimitri Voronkov, who beyond just having a great first name, of course, is a phenomenal player who have really enjoyed watching this first season in NHL. And the reason we're going to talk about him today is because you're our coaching expert or guru here on the PDO cast.

And we always talk about tactics and stuff. And we recently had this quote from the head coach of the Columbus Blue Jackets, Pascal Vincent, who said after a recent game against the hurricanes, when asked about limiting the ice time of his Russian line, I'm cautious about that line because they start playing like the Harlem Globetrotters. And I don't want to see that. There's a lot to unpack. There's certainly one that came out.

I was actually first made aware of it by someone sharing it in the Pediocast Discord. And I thought it was satire. And then I went and looked it up and found it. And nope, sure enough, it actually came from his mouth and was serious without a hint of irony. So there's a lot to unpack there for us. And I think it makes for a good entryway into a conversation about the Blue Jackets and Veron Cobb in that line

and the way they've been coached as well and all that stuff. So take it away, Jack. So to start off, I'll give you a very small Pascal Vincent anecdote. So I grew up playing hockey in a part of Montreal called Verdun. And at the time that I played minor hockey, the main tenant of the rink that I played in was the Montreal Juniors,

which was a team coached by Pascal Vincent. So it was really funny because I remember being like 16 or 17 and sitting in a locker room and knowing that his office was next door and thinking like there was such a chasm between where he was and where I was and not really thinking that at any time I would be able to work in hockey or coach a high level. team like he does. And funny enough, about 10 years down the road, or maybe a bit more, it was like 10, 12 years, but I'd end up coaching against him when I was an assistant coach

with Amarly. So it just, like, I don't have any personal connections with him. Like, we've never had a conversation or anything like that. But it's just, it's funny, like the names that you meet kind of on the way up. And one day, all of a sudden, like, you wake up and you're competing against them, which is kind of funny. To be honest, I don't think, I don't think, I don't think, if you gave them truth serum, he would have thought that this season he would be coaching in an HL team either, but it was kind of sprung up on him last minute. And that certainly plays into us. And that's why I don't want to be necessarily too critical because I think it's clear that,

you know, he's a bit out of his depth here. But, you know, beyond back to that quote, beyond the obvious irony, I think, of, you know, hockey's history of a group of Russians coming into the league and playing together like the Globetrotters and literally changing the game for the better aside, that trio of Marchenko, Chinokov, and Voronkov this season have played 250, 155 minutes together. And they certainly do give up stuff defensively. I think that passes the eye test. But they're up 13 to 8.

And I think most importantly, they've added sort of a fresh air of like dynamic fun play to this organization. And that's something I kept coming back to when our pal Thomas Trance and I did our show right after they fired Yarmoukekeleinen a couple weeks ago. We were talking about how the Blue Jackets have sort of been stuck in this state of arrested development where they haven't been competitive for a few years now. They haven't been good. They've been picking high in the draft, but they also haven't been fun or entertaining either. Like, they've just been bad. And that's sort of an unacceptable place for me for an NHL organization because not everyone can compete

for a Stanley Cup or even be a playoff team. Like, there's going to be bad teams. But if you're going to be bad, it's an entertainment product. then you have to give your fans a reason to care and be invested in the team, buy the merch, pay their hard-earned money to come into the games, support the team, follow them along that ride and that journey. And if you're going to treat it this way and be like, well, these guys are too risky,

here's some Sean Corrali for you. That, to me, is unacceptable because this team is 29th in the league and point percentage. So I guess what are we really trying to do here this season and what are the Blue Jackets trying to accomplish? Yeah, like, you know, I, I saw the quote because he sent it to me, but then I went and looked at some clips of this particular club, this line,

which I think is the only line that's really winning their minutes for the blue jackets right now. And like I'm not super familiar with these three players particularly, but as I, the more I watch them, the more like I'm enjoying this. Like they're, you know, like the, in the original quote that I don't think we should actually read too much into. but the aesthetics of what they're doing,

like they look just fine to me, right? They play with the puck, they play with speed. I actually find them quite good defensively in terms of coming back into their zone. Like I pick a game against Carolina and they started the game like gangbusters. Like they were doing to Carolina what Carolina does the most team

who just rush them with their pressure, with their speed and, you know, get pucks on net and, you know, be really solid defensively coming back into their zone. stuffing out rush chances and quickly transitioning back to offense. Like they were doing all of these things. And, you know, you mentioned Varankov, and I think he's, in a way, he's the guy that makes it all work because Marchenko and Shinikov,

they're kind of more your stereotypical Russians who they like to have the puck. They'll use their speed to burn defenders out wide, maybe a little bit kind of not predictable, but, you know, certainly they want to hang on to the pocket and they rather hang on to it more than less. And then Varankov is a guy who actually, I think, you know, if his name was June, June Benner, you would think that he's a good old boy from Alberta,

who's good around the net, who's good defensively. Like, he's in his spots as a center, goes to the front of the net, tips, pox, gets his nose dirty, is a big kid. Like, he is not a stereotypical Russian, Harlem Globetrotta kind of player, which I think is really interesting.

Yeah, and listen, this is his first season in North America, and I was talking on a show recently about like, I think within the context of he was pretty open early in the season as well, right, about the adjustment of coming over here and playing and early in the season. He wasn't even necessarily sure if he wanted to stick around. Like, he felt very homesick. And it's remarkable that he's been able to adjust and perform the way he has. But despite this being his first season, he's already a 23 year old player who's had success in pro hockey. And I think that reflects itself on the tape, right? Like there's a certain beyond just the size of him. I think there's a level of like maturity and refinement already in his game that you see in his ability to leverage that size into like just being a beast along the boards in front of the net.

His timing is impeccable. Like there's a goal they scored recently against the Sabres where it was like a nice little bang bang pass by Marchenko. But if you watch it, the timing Barankov displays of like. coming to the front of the net and then opening up in time and getting a stick down to tap in the pass is high level stuff, right? Like this is a guy who clearly sees and understands the game and is able to use the tools that he has. So I think that level of maturity and details in his game in those areas are actually exactly what this Blue Jackets team needs more of, right? Like they have veteran players, they have young guys, but there's this weird mismatch of someone who can actually do the stuff that Voronkov does, which is this mature, detailed approach to the game. And so if anything, that's what's baffling to me to see his usage and see the way his

coach, his own coach speaks about him. I just really do not see that on the tape beyond the fact that like he's taking a bunch of penalties this season. But like he's a big guy who plays in tight areas. Like I, it kind of comes to the territory in a sense, right? Like I'm sure he can tidy that up a little bit and maybe take, be a bit more disciplined. But ultimately, like you're saying, if he was had a different name or a different reputation, all of a sudden would be like, oh man, this guy is just really.

tough to play against. Look how big he is and he's physical and he's got a lot of penalty minutes and that would be viewed as like a good thing. Whereas in this case, it's like, it's treated as if it's like the worst thing about his game. Yeah. So I, I want to preempt one of the mailback questions because I find it ties in perfectly with this Varankov discussion, which somebody asked us like about power forward. Like what is the power forward and how do we develop that? And I always say Varankov is basically like if you're talking about a modern power forward who's sort of unharalded and, you know, not a player who's like literally good at everything, like let's say Austin Matthews is. Well, you can look at a guy like Broncoff. So defensively,

he's in his spots. Offensively, he gets the net and you see this in his heat maps. He drives volume new than that. He drives, you know, chances in sort of in tight. He's not killing people, right? He's not getting to fight every game, but that's what a modern power forward looks like. He does. Certainly. And, you know, he's on this 24-goal pace. Actually, funny enough, all three of these guys are kind of around that 25-goal pace right now. I think they're combining for like 75 over-82 games this season, which is obviously very productive. But Broncov's doing this playing 13-15 per game.

He's playing 1038 per game at 5-1-5, which is 16 among blue jackets forwards. You're only legally allowed to dress 12 of them. And that's because guys like Bemstrom and Eric Robinson and Alex Nealander, who they either traded away or traded four recently, have all somehow wound up earning more 5-on-5 average ice time under Pascal Vincent than Varancov has this season. And so it's incredibly frustrating because the production is there individually, the impact on the ice, 51.2% shot share with him out there. They're up 3219.

You mentioned they're like the only ones winning their minutes. There's like a discernible impact there. And so that's just frustrating. It's tough for me to reconcile those things, right? I keep coming back to like, if you're going to be this bad, and they're playing a game the other day against the Blackhawks and I was going off to you in our text messages, he points up playing like 10 minutes in that game,

which is less than Matthew Olivier. And if anything, the rest of this season for the Blue Jackets, like the final 20 games or so, should be treated as a crash course, I guess, to help guide their decisions this off season, right? We'll still see who their GM's going to be, and I'm sure they're going to have a new coach next year at this rate.

But all these guys are a phase. And so essentially the organization needs to get a good, sense of what they are as players, how big of an impact they can make moving forward, and then sign them accordingly to long-term deals. And so I just think they're Vincent here is doing them a disservice. And I don't think this is like a 4D masterclass by them, lowering their value by keeping his minutes down so they can get them cheaper on their next contracts. Like I really ultimately think that he's viewing this as like, man, it's too risky out there.

I'm trying to keep my job. I'm trying to, even if I don't keep this job, put out good tape. out there in terms of the way I handle my team and the way my team plays so that I can get a job down the road from someone else. And so he legitimately, I think, thinks that playing Boone Jenner 20 plus minutes, playing Sean Coralli, playing all these guys who are lesser players over him is the way to go. And I think that's the most alarming part of it all for me. I mean, what I'll say is like coaching pro hockey is tremendously difficult to do.

And there's sort of this element of like the stress that you're under all the time. puts you in this sort of survival mode where like it's hard to even think clearly. Like if you look at, if you go on HockeyDB, a site that I really use now, but. No, you usually prospect.com. Yeah. But the reason why I use HockeyDB in this one specific circumstance is because it very clearly shows Pascal Vincent's coaching results, like team level results. And what you're going to see is like a lot of like first round exit,

like missed the playoff. Like he's basically been coaching on survival mode for the better part of or even more than the past decade. Like even like going back to when I was a minor hockey player and he was coaching the Montreal Jr. Like, you know, he never really coached a team that had a top end roster that was a championship contender. So basically every year like he's trying to scrape by.

And it really like it takes a toll on it. And perhaps over time it's kind of warped his aesthetics of. what, you know, he should be looking for as a coach. And maybe all of a sudden he's got one line that's doing something a little bit unusual, but that I still, you know, for me, looks really good. And he's like, wait, we can't have this because I don't know what to do with this. But don't you think that I would, I guess it's easy to say from the outside, but I would just think that considering the state of the team and the likelihood that he's

going to be fired and like how nothing else has really worked over the season, like the idea that you could capture lightning in a bottle here, with this trio where if they kept producing and we're doing cool stuff, you could almost hit your wagon to that as like, I wouldn't say like, wow, they're doing this because Pascal Vincent is doing

such a great job. But at least you could say like you could have something distinctly to point to that sort of separates you or gives the organization a reason to keep you on as opposed to just going along with the usual day to day where you're 29th in the league and losing games and really providing nothing

of like distinct value that you can point to as something you did that separates you from anyone else they could hire yeah i mean we'll see where the story goes but i just think it's a it's an example of shooting the gift force of the face like that that's kind of i would see yeah i i still like this bluejackets team i was watching the game against the golden nights and i know they're kind of playing out the string and also as we get to this point of the season you don't want to make the mistake of like reading too much into what you're seeing in some of these kind of throwaway games that aren't ultimately that meaningful. But with the level of firepower and talent and like these three guys and I still love Ken Johnson, who's unfortunately out for the season now and there's

a ton of talent. They've drafted a ton of a bunch of kind of modern defensemen high in the draft recently. I'm still going to be like in on this team, but I just really want to see them change their fundamentally change their approach as an organization. And I think that starts with the GM hire and then the next coach they bring in because the last three since Torterella essentially have been, I think, disappointing in my opinion based on what they were trying to accomplish given where they're at.

So that's my note on that. You mentioned that power forward question from our listener, Brandon, in the Discord, I wanted to shout him out there as well. You kind of answered it, but I was curious because essentially the question was why our power forward is so difficult to develop. We've seen a lot of players who have tools, but can't quite put them together

consistently. Do you have like an actual sort of bigger picture answer for that in terms of why? I think it's obvious why it would be so alluring right? When you see a player who's like six four, six five can move reasonably well, sometimes even incredibly well and like has the hands and flashes a shot and why teams are always going to be willing to take a chance on those players because there's such a rare breed. But then you watch them play and in the grand, like within the context of an NHL hockey game, game, they're clearly, like, struggling to keep up or something's, a missing link is there.

Is it just a matter of kind of like the tools are one thing, but with the combination of like feel and processing speed and stuff, if you're missing that link, then ultimately all the other stuff doesn't really matter because you can't actually use it? I think it's a problem of perception and expectation. It's not that those players don't exist or that they're necessarily difficult to develop. I've worked with a few of them at different levels. And it's just like, you know, if you're a big guy who has some skill, who has some skating ability,

people are expecting a lot more from you than from a smaller kind of waterbug player what may be the equivalent ability. Right. Like I remember when I was in Toronto, we had Pierre Engball. And Pierre Engball, I think, is a really good example of a modern power forward except he never fought. He, you know, he would take the body, but he wasn't like somebody who, again,

as F1 is going to kill anybody. He would get it done a lot with his skating and his reach. And, you know, there was sometimes sort of this frustration with like he's trying to play more like Will and Yelander than, I don't know, like Tyler Bittuzzi or whatever, right? Like we just, because we see that, he's a guy who's 6'5, 230, and moves really well and has all this skill set.

He should be doing a lot more than he's doing. And a lot of times with these players, you lose patience. Like, you know, Val-Nishu Kiddh, for example. Early on in this career, you know, obviously he had some different issues and different challenges. But again, you know, he's a player that Dallas gave up on that they probably should have helped, right? They were made more of an effort or maybe manage him a little bit differently.

Moronkov is another example. Like, you know, if you want to very, very brief, like how there's a very brief, like, how does this affect the Leafs interlude? I would love to see him on a line with Max Dolmy and Kyle Yonkrook as a third line for the Leafs. As much as they're looking to add defensemen, if you had a guy like Voronkov as your third line center who can play on your second power plate be a net firm presence,

like that's a huge plus for you team. And, you know, his current team doesn't necessarily see the value. But again, like these power forwards, like sometimes it takes them one or even two changes of scenery to really come into their own because maybe people expect too much of them too early. And then it just takes a while for them to grow into their bodies and go into their games and also like play with assurance that whatever they're doing is enough. Yeah, I was initially, my initial pushback was going to be like, stay away from wrong.

I don't be trying to, don't be trying to steal them. But ultimately, if anything gets him playing above 10 minutes per game, I'm willing to hear it out. Yeah, it's interesting, especially I think this is different Broncoves unique because he didn't have draft capital, right, for a variety of reasons. And then over time had the benefit of like figuring it out, turning it on and then performing at a high level in the KHL before coming over here as a 23 year old rookie, right? Generally, if you're like a 17, 18 year old who's just relying on those physical tools and you're pretty much already a grown man and you're playing against kids who are not as physical. developed as you and major junior, all of a sudden, like, it's just easier to just kind of coast on that and looks very impressive. And then you get to a point where you come into the NHL and all of a sudden it's not as much of an advantage because pretty much everyone is big and past.

If you don't have other areas to kind of stand out and distinguish yourself, you're going to have a tough time unless you figure out the tricks of the trade and evolve and adapt accordingly, right? And I think that's kind of the difference there. But it's interesting, like, because hockey sense or hockey IQ is a, is a, one of the tools. It's just, I guess, more difficult to visibly identify with your eye, especially on an individual level. I think you can see it like within the context of the way the team plays and how you fit in with those guys and making other players better. But if a guy skates really fast or is really big, anyone can just with their two eyes be like, yeah,

that's a tool they have. Whereas the other stuff in terms of feel and processing, it takes more reps to see that. And it's also, I think, a bit trickier to identify and kind of etripping. attribute it to one player. Yeah, and like, let's say you're right, Slavkovsky, like another really good example, right? Like the difference between Slavkovsky two years ago and Slavkovsky now and Slavkovsky two years from now where he's going to be closer to his prime is he's going to look, he's going to look no different, right? He's going to skate the same, his physically, he physically is going to look the same.

He's going to shoot the same. But his timing and his weeds and his sort of risk management, like everything is going to be better. But again, as you said, like, these are things which are so subtle that it's really difficult to pick up on them until you look at the statute and all of a sudden he's like a 0.8 points per game player, right? Or a point per game player. It adds up, but not if you're just watching it kind of on a surface. Okay. Well, if there's one thing to take from this, it's the Dimitri Barunkov rules and we're big fans of him on the PDO cast. And so keep that in mind. Jack, let's take our break here a bit early than usual because I want to talk about the devils

and their coaching change and kind of what to expect from that and all sorts of other stuff, but we'll save that for the other side of the show. Take our break here and then get back at it. You're listening to the Hockeypedo guest streaming on the Sports Night Radio Network. The most opinionated Maple Leaf Show out there. Real Kipperman Born. Be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right.

We're back here on the Hockeypedo guest, joined by Jack Hahn. Jack, let's talk a little about the Devils who made a coaching change finally yesterday on Monday afternoon. With 21 games left, they finally made the move to fire Lindy Ruff and promoted Travis Green, who was assistant to the interim head coaching position, a move that we've seen various teams do this season now. Now, I think given how the road trip went for them over the weekend, where you lose the ducks after I was shooting them like 55 to 23, then you give up five straight to L.A. punctuated by pulling. your goalie and not even sending out an extra attacker, just essentially still playing 5-15. I think they had to do something now, if only as like a show of mercy, because they're playing

at home tonight against the Panthers. And I think it could have gotten really ugly in front of a very vocal and rabid fan base that just wants change. And so I get all of that. I'm kind of curious for your take. I don't think we necessarily need to rehash the whole devil saga this season. You and I have spoken about a bunch. Anyone listening to this show gets her by now. They've had injuries to keep players.

The 31st in team save percentage. They've given up for the first goal in over 70% of their games. The defense has regressed mightily in front of those goalies. And a lot has gone wrong. Now, making a coaching change like this with 21 games left, obviously it's very difficult to sort of apply any meaningful changes beyond, I guess, how you divvy up ice time amongst your players. And that has been a point of contention for fans in terms of player usage.

So that could be one thing. but you're also promoting from within and not necessarily that an assistant shares the exact same views as the head coach. We've seen time and time again that night might not be the case. But also I'm kind of curious for your take on like how much change, I guess we should expect and how differently things could look in the final 21 games after a move like this.

I mean, certainly the new coach bump dictates that the players are going to play a little bit harder, a little bit more defensively aware. you know, like I I've coached no, I've never coached against Travis Green in the HAL, but certainly I've seen his, whether it's Utica, whether it's Vancouver.

You know, he's a guy who really emphasizes the defensive side of the game and really emphasizes working hard in all areas of the ice, so you're definitely going to see that, right? So just having that different voice is going to get

every player maybe you know, 5% or 10% kind of more engaged and more intense to kind of reinforce or maybe earn a bigger role. So we're definitely going to see that in terms of practical adjustments. I don't know so much if it's going to be kind of the structure or the more the X of the nose, but certainly I think the Florida Panthers are a really good model for this Devils team in terms of how difficult they are to break out against how tenacious they are on their forecheck, you know, maybe a little bit less focus on their play with the puck

than, let's say, back when Andrew Brunette was the Panthers head coach. But I think for the devil's scene, like it's a viable sort of model to follow because they have a lot of the same pieces. And what's really going to kind of take this devil's team to the next level, as, you know, Darrell Belfrey's mentioned in the PDO cast in the past is, if they're able to sustain playing the ozone and get

some re-entry chances and really hem teams in and control the tempo that way, instead of just trading chances and maybe even giving up more than they're creating, then that's going to be a way for this team to be sustainable long-term and successful long-term. And they have the players. Perhaps it's going to take a change of mindset, a change of coaching voice. But certainly that's a direction that I think by all likelihood they're going to move toward. Yeah, there's a like the 23rd. And expected goals against 21st off the rush, 27th, and their slot shots against, like,

they need to get better defensively regardless of the goaltending. I think it's kind of chicken or the egg, though. There's certainly a psychological impact, I think, that like a lack of trust develops, we should talk about all the time. And then that seeps into the way you play, and there's adverse trickle-down effect of that. And it can just be very insidious and kind of this, like, endless loop of pain. And I think they were clearly in the late stages of that already. I'm very curious about this though because I think Green, like I got to follow him and his job as a coach here in Vancouver pretty closely when he ran the Canucks.

And obviously towards the end kind of things went off the rails. But I do think like I get why this front office likes him and why he's actually. I don't think this is purely a let's just play out the string for the final 20 games. We'll see obviously how that goes. But I do think he has a chance to earn this job moving forward because. He has pros and cons like any coach. I think he's got a certain level of like probabilistic thinking working in his favor where I think he's he's data savvy.

He's like open to ideas. I think he'll be much more amenable to that front office and their suggestions much more so than a 65 year old hockey lifer who probably was like, all right, I don't need to hear from you about that. I'm just going to keep coaching this team the way I see it. So I'm curious to see how all of that plays out. Now the early returns in terms of the lines that are running.

running in his first practice with a team ahead of their game tonight, Shimon Emmett is scratched. I think that's just a temporary thing. They just kind of want to get him a rest because they cited his skating as a concern. I think he's just hired, which makes sense for a first year player like this. They also have holds, though, on the fourth line. And it was interesting hearing, like, Fitzgerald and his presser essentially referenced that. He was like, I think there's different ways to maintain accountability beyond just stapling a player to a bench.

yet he's right now skating with Curtis McDermott and Thomas Nolshek on the fourth line. So we'll see, but that's been a big point of contention. And I guess those are things I'll be watching to see how maybe this differentiates from the first 60 games under Lindy Ruff. Yeah, I mean, 20 games is a pretty fair sample size to then do some evaluation on the after this season. Based on what you and I both know, I think holds is just not. a good match for what green values in a player or on a team. But the one play I'm really curious about is whether he can get Doss and Mercer going.

Because Dossamerser had a really good start his initial career, but for whatever reason, it's kind of gone off the rails. And he's the kind of player where, like, as maybe either a second liner or a third liner, he can actually help the team kind of get over the hump and really win their minutes a little bit like how Ryan McLeod is helping Edmonton during the non-McDavid and non-drysidal minutes. So, you know, for this devil seems to be, again, a sustainably good sort of contender,

you know, they have the top line players already. But again, like I like to see what Travis Green does with Dawson Mercer. I think that's a real focal. Yeah, I'm a little bit worried because I think certainly the tracker and everything I know about Green, that two-way standard you mentioned and kind of how he prioritizes that. I could see him not really changing the usage of holds, which would be frustrating because I get what you're saying, but man, he's got 12-5-1-5 goals playing like four line minutes for them this season. And even if it's

not with a long-term future with his team, if he will wind up eventually being used as trade bait for a bigger deal, like you just need to give yourself more runaway here to actually see what you've got and put more on tape there. And I think he's a good player. I think he's certainly earned a bigger, bigger workload or bigger opportunity. And here's the thing. I think this is what's frustrating for a lot of fans. And I want you to speak on this a little bit.

Like coaches are human, right? And so like everyone, I'm guilty of this as well in my life. Everyone is to some degree. But there's a level of like double standard in terms of biases for a coach. And I think that's what frustrates fans where. a young player like a Holtz can make one mistake and all of a sudden they're just not playing the rest of the game and they're being punished for it. Whereas if a veteran or a player who is viewed more favorably by the coach makes the same mistake, they're not going to receive the same

treatment. And that double standard can be a bit frustrating because say what you will about John Chorill as a coach, but what I deeply respect about him is everyone is treated equally for the most part and everyone knows the rules, right? Like if you mess up or you don't do something he doesn't like, he will tell you about it, whether you're Sean Gucurier or whether you're Bobby Brink. And a lot of coaches don't treat their players that way. And I don't think that's what Lindy Ruff did, where Holtz would miss one assignment or mess something up. And he'd play six minutes that night, whereas you have veterans who were making mistake after mistake and still getting their usual ice time. And so I think that's like an important point to make here about

holds his usage and the way he's been treated this season. Yeah, and this is where it gets really tricky because a lot of the things kind of behind the scenes, you know, obviously we don't hear about. But whenever things like that happen, I kind of wonder, it's like, what are we optimizing for, right? Like, if you're a coach and you're optimizing for a result, then it's one thing.

But if you're optimizing to reduce your own stress level, sometimes it gets you making sort of opposite, decisions, right? Like if, for whatever reason, if you have the impression that bad things happen when you put a certain guy on the ice, you are going to be less inclined, you know, no matter what the stats say. If you think that your feelings override the available evidence, or, you know, there are situations where maybe you feel like, you know, you, you are going to do their locker room environment of the service if you sort of knock a veteran down a couple of pegs then it sort of throws off the pecking order and then you have issues sort of dealing with,

you know, that can be a legitimate concern. Or maybe there are certain players where, like, you know that if you scratch and you're going to hear from them and their agent and everybody, you might even hear from your GM. And then with other players, it's like you can do whatever you want to them and, you know, you don't have to worry about anything. So it's situations like that that I think as outsiders or fans, like we're not privy to. And that changes a lot of the calculus because of this. sort of all the interpersonal dynamics.

Yeah. No, I think there's certainly legitimacy to that, but it's also what makes, like, the way Nikolai Ehlers and Kyle Connor are treated differently so frustrating because they are kind of linear in terms of stature and that way based on where they're at in their careers and they're standing within the team.

And yet, Nicolaeus makes one mistake, gets bumped down. Kyle Connor makes his 14th mistake of the game, still going to get his usual ice time on the top line and top powerplay. And that just drives me up the wall, and that's sort of reinforced like Elliot Friedman has in his latest 32 thoughts, this quote where it's like, he was just creative but unpredictable.

And in the postseason, his coach will not like that. And it's like, oh, my God, this is my worst nightmare playing out right before my very eyes for this Jets team in their outlook. So something to keep in mind there. One final note on the devils that I wanted to make because also on those practice lines, Jack Hughes got bumped to the wing. Now, since he came back from injury, I don't think he's taken literally a single face off yet. So it's not that big of a deal.

I do think what we'll see from Travis Green, though, based on his track record, is they're going to give Nico Hishier every single tough assignment and defensive zone draw they can. And he's going to be leaned on very heavily with extreme deployment there. And that's hopefully going to free up Hughes, even if it means playing a little bit less in softer matchups to try and get him going offensively and sort of fuel this team. And so that's one thing that I will be watching for moving forward because we know that Green is very, obsessed with matchups and that sort of stuff for better or for worse. So keep an eye on that. Okay. Let's do some mailback questions. Do you want to, how about that? You down? Yeah, okay. Here's one from Pixies. And this is, I apologize. This is the first one I wrote down and I wrote this down before I even knew we were going to do the devils before this. So the timing of it

really stings. But Pixies wants a full expose on why Andrew Brunette deserves the Jack Adams. Now, let me just say this. On Bet 365, Tocke is in a world of his own for this award, at least on the Canucks success and the impact he's had on the team. Then you've got this list of, and way behind them in terms of odds of like Paul Maurice, Rick Bonas, which is hilarious, Pierlaavillette, John Tortorella, going down the line. And I feel like this is just trolling me because Andrew Burnett has the same odds as Pascal Vincent and Mike Sullivan, two coaches that literally in the last two shows.

I've spoken at length about how I've hated the job they've done. right now if I had water I would take a sip of it just so I could spit it out like Jim Carrey and liar liar and just be like come on because that's how I feel seeing that I feel like it's trolling me personally but man Andrew Burnett I know you and I have spoken about him a bunch maybe this is a good plug for us

an entry way to talk a little bit rehash stuff we've spoken about in the past but you put out your hockey tactics book and we're going to plug that a bunch here down to stretch of the show but just in terms of the impact he's had on the predators and the job he's done because they're in a playoff position, they're playing remarkably well,

and I think we can easily trace the difference to the coaching here. Like they made personnel changes this off season, but they fundamentally changed the way they play from the past, and that to me speaks to the impact of coaching. Yeah, so just to very quickly sum up our past discussion on Brunette, first of all, he gives his players a lot of freedom to activate, whether it's, you know, in the D zone, on the breakout, or in the offensive zone.

the defensemen, like they manage the ice differently in the sense that the Ds are responsible for kind of like the flanks and the forwards are concentrated in the middle of the ice to support the puck and to get the puck in the dangerous areas. And also I kind of wonder, again, something that I can't really confirm without being in the room, but it just seems to me that like he gives his players more leash.

He doesn't freak out as much as other coaches when they make a mistake or something that they want to do doesn't go according to plan, you know, he's not quite as reactive. So all that being said, he's done a really good job. And I think, Demetri, you're his top fan in terms of getting him a coach of the year nomination. So, yeah, I mean, I'm surprised that they're still in a playoff spot. I think it's been a running gag that you're telling me how amazing the predators are. And I'm still kind of a move by it, but we'll see.

Well, I mean, it's all relative, but like, how can you not be impressed? Defensively, their top 10, in expected goals against inner slot shots allowed and time spent in their own zone. Offensively, they're in the top 10 in all those stats as well. And there's more to hockey than that. But you look, there's sixth in cycle chances, fifth off the forecheck, seventh off rebounds. These are like effort-based stats that are also indicative to me

of tactical changes they've made to play aggressively in the offensive zone and try to extend possessions there, which is what they weren't doing previously. And funny enough, or sadly enough, depending on your perspective, these are all the things that I think the devils have regressed at and desperately need to fix. And so that to me speaks to the job Brunette's done. They've won seven in a row here.

Most recently, just absolutely walloped the avalanche at home. Their next seven games, habs, sabers, blue jackets, wild, who they're trying to fend off for the wildcard spot, Crackin who they're similarly trying to find off Jets, which will be a big test for them and the sharks. This is a stretch where they could do really well and cement their playoff position

and he's not going to win the Jack Adams because Tocke has had it locked up since like the first week of the season and that's fine, but I think he deserves much more love for the job he's done. Like this is a fun team to watch totally changed their entire outlook from last season and shout out to Tommy Novak

as well, who I know as a player who you still are dubious of existing but I've been talking about him a lot here and it's really worn my heart seeing all the interest he received at the trade deadline off the market now after his three-year extension. But heck of a player absolutely schooled Bowen Byron in that game I just mentioned. And yeah, both Tommy Novak and the Preds are for real. So Dimitri, on the PDOCAST, doing a great job of willing a Preds playoff run,

a Andrew Brunette, Jack Adams nomination, and also the existence. of Tommy Novak. Good job. Tommy Novak, Truther. Well, more people have joined the cause since then. Listen, I think they are, I've talked a lot about how, like the second wildcard, the drop off between that and all the other West teams is pretty immense.

And whoever wins the West, like, should be trying really hard to do so because that makes the easiest first round opponent. I still think that's the case. But this Preds team, if U.C. Soros is bouncing back the way he has and the way they're playing, it's not an easy out. Now, I'd still rather play them than a team like the Kings for a game. example is the first wild card, but I just wanted to note that. Like, I think they've been playing really well. Okay, here's a question from backhand sauce for you. And I'm prioritizing this one because

I think it can make for an interesting discussion. So backhand saws asks, should we be teaching defenders to play differently at young ages, or is it just the nature of the game that impact from the defense position will always be that much harder, obviously in comparison to their forward counterparts? So there's two, um, There's two parts of that question, I think, and I'll address the second part first, which I think a lot of the models, depending on how they set up, they value positions differently. Like I remember one of Michael Blake McCurdy's hockey biz model,

like there was something that he did in the programming of it that kind of had every defenseman as like a negative value player. It's just like the better defensemen, they were closer to, zero and then the worst defensemen were far more kind of down the line. And, you know, at a certain point, like whether you use regression analysis, whether you use like simple like points like goals and assists, a lot of the things that defense can do like that, I don't think to get weighed properly. And this discrepancy is more or less egregious depending on how, how sound your methods are. So it's not just because these are, quote unquote,

less productive or less impactful that they're less important. Like last time I checked, you need all five skaters. And certainly I think there's more and more of a movement to have, let's say, your defenseman being the fourth player in the rush and all that.

But, you know, just being in that space gives you no credit unless you touch the puck and you score. But just being in that space creates so much value for your team offensively and defensively. And it's not often reflected because you're kind of in that second layer. And again, you don't get the puck as often. So you don't get your share of the credit.

And it's like this attribution of credit is really tricky when you're a defenseman because you're kind of setting the stage for everybody else. And other people's success and failures are only tied to you like in a very indirect way a lot of times. So I think it's this whole idea of like kind of giving credit is really true. tricky, which is why for defensemen, there's a lot of value in just using kind of these like very agnostic like on ice, right? Like we had foresee relative like way back when and, you know, sort of more simple kind of expected goals worth or without. But there's value in using that for defensemen because it's way trickier than to, you know, let's say to assigning goals

and assist to afford or assigning individual chance generation to afford or, you know, a shot assist or whatever. It's just, it's more difficult to evaluate these because, you know, because they're sort of, they're farther from the action, but they're no less important. That's the second project question. The first part is, yes, like obviously defensemen are being brought up to be more involved and defend more skating for,

like all the things that Darrell talked about in the Shimon Nemech episode, like, you know, more and more coaches are doing that. And I think we're only going to see more defensemen with that skill set and, you know, and the game is going to be better for it. Yeah, I think there's certainly a lot there. I think you hit on some key points where you're kind of,

as a defenseman, you're doing a lot of your work behind the scenes, and there's just fewer sort of noticeable events that we can attribute directly to you. You kind of view it more within the team concept. I think the list of responsibilities is obviously significantly deeper and more difficult, right? Like I think a lot of defensemen could probably provide replacement level value, as a fourth or even potentially third line winger, whereas it would be very hard to foresee a lot of forwards doing the same

and actually being able to be a reliable defenseman. It's possible, but I think much more rare, and those would be exceptions. I think what's interesting, though, to think about this and the way hockey's played out is, like, I don't think it's necessarily a simpler binary as, like, defensemen defend and forwards drive offense, right? Because if anything, the more I think about it, the more it's the inverse in a way.

Like forwards are going to be important for driving offense because they're going to be the shooters and the finishers. And if you're not actually turning shots and chances into goals, all of it's for not. And as much as we might like it in terms of underlying numbers and models and everything, if you don't have the results, none of it matters. It's all for not. But think about it this way. Like the forwards, I think, actually drive more of the defense because they're at the initial point of contact, right? like we talk all the time, whether it's the forecheck, keeping pucks in the offensive zone, back pressure, providing support for defensemen so they're not on an island defensively

against the rush. They're kind of the initial wave of defense, whereas defenders are the first ones generally to touch the puck. They're the ones who are responsible for moving you north-south and driving offense by putting the forwards in a position where they can make skill plays. So I think that's an interesting kind of backwards way to think about it, but all of this stuff is clearly tied together. but I don't think it's necessarily as simple as one does one and one does the other.

I think there's actually a bit of a backwards effect, if anything. And I think now we're back to the score one. And, you know, what you just said, if Travis Green embraces that idea and he's able to implement tactics that support that idea, I think he'll do a good job with the doubles. And it's all about, again, having the forwards be up ice and being more tenacious and cutting off more players on the forecheck and sustaining time in the ozone

and for the defenseman to move the puck quickly but without throwing it away necessarily. This is what I was kind of hinting at at the top, right? It's if you don't trust your goal tending and you're like every time the other team comes in the zone and scores off the rush, you're fishing the puck out of your net and you just become so traumatized by that.

There's like this human element where you're going to start playing more passively even though ironically that makes the pain so much worse. and more likely to occur, but because you're going to be less likely to have your forwards deep in the offensive zone because you want them coming back and supporting the defense. And so now you're actually letting teams more easily come out and attack downhill, whereas if you had just fully gone all out,

there would be an occasional time where the puck slips past you and you give up a two on one or a three on one and it looks bad. But those would be far fewer further between than the alternative. Yeah. So I think, you know, Nashville, the way that they played, the understand this, I think the devils, they're going to wrap their head around it. Columbus might be a little bit far gone, but we'll see what happens with him. Okay, here's one final question for you then. I think this ties it all together, and it's a good segue into our plugs at the end of the show. Brian asked, what team this year has had the biggest change in on-ice tactics and strategy from last season for better or for worse?

For me, the reference is the Philadelphia Flyers. It's not necessarily that they've changed. their defensive structure, not at all. Certainly they've had some upgrades in terms of personnel with Katrina coming back and, you know, swapping out DiAngelo for Sean Walker. But just the way that they're able to counterattack after playing good defense, I think, is really remarkable something that I did not foresee at all.

So, yeah, the flyers would definitely be a big surprise. And then, again, you know, Nashville, you know, very similar group of players coming back. but then playing in a much more interesting and productive way. Yeah. The reason why I teed you up for that was because you just put out the hockey tactics 2024 and I've been working my way through it. It's good as always.

I recommend people check it out. If they haven't already gets into a lot of this stuff and like tendencies and kind of things teams are doing, I guess it's not that big of a departure from last year. So it doesn't really fit to this question. But I think they've so doubled out on it and really just learned how to almost, they've turned it into a science where it's like everyone is on the same page and they're operating at such a high level and it's the Panthers. Where I think what they did last year, they've leveraged that even further where you look now and they're top two by every single defensive metric despite the blue line they had at the start of the year.

They're surging in the offensive metrics over the past 30 games since Matthew Kachuk got healthier and started progressing more positively offensively. They're top five in both special teams categories and men like the way they play. is art to me. Like it's how I want teams to play. They're executing it perfectly with the personnel they have. And that's a team I would be watching very closely and trying to adopt easier said than done

because most teams don't have Sasha Barkov, Matthew Kachuk, and even a Gus Foresling. But there's a lot to glean there, I think, in terms of like how aggressively they're playing and what they're trying to accomplish and why it's creating the results they have. So if you're looking for a really good companion

to watch a game with. I just put out a PDF e-book with diagrams of all 32 NHL teams systems, whether it's 5-on-5 or PK or PowerPlay. It really gives you a really visual indication of the things that we talk about in podcast form. So the best way to get it is if you go on Gumroad.com and you search for Hockey Tactics 2024 or we can just Google it, you know, it's read by NHL players,

NHL coaches, parents, hockey parents of all levels, and fans who really want to nerd out about the game and kind of tell their friends about things that they pick up that others don't see.

Well, boy, are you preaching to the right audience, then I hope all of my listeners check that out. My only plug is, we've referenced the questions from the PDO gas discord here.

If you're not in there, anybody link is in the show notes, pop in there. The trade deadline is on Friday, and we've got some fun plans for just talking all day on there basically. I think that's the best place to converse. It's so much better than any other social media because you're actually going to get just like thoughtful, intelligent,

informed conversation without any trolling. So get in there if you're not already. And that's all for us today. Jack, thanks for coming on. Thank you everyone for listening. And we'll be back with plenty more of the Hockey P.Docast streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network.