The Hockey PDOcast - Changes in Calgary

Episode Date: June 21, 2023

Julian McKenzie joins the show to talk about his recent work on what went on behind the scenes in Calgary last season, how much of the Flames' miserable year was due to Darryl Sutter's tactics, and what the new coach and GM can do this summer to help turn things around.This podcast is produced by Dominic Sramaty. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

dressing to the mean since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Philippopovin. Welcome to the Hockey-Ocast. My name is Demetri Filippovich and joining me is my good buddy, Julian McCenzie. Julian, what's going on, man? Things are good, my brother. Things are very good. How are you doing, man?

I'm thankful that the NHL decided and, you know, just as I say this, I've got my Twitter feed open just in case something happens while we're recording. But I'm glad the NHL decided that they're going to give us a few days after the conclusion. of the Stanley Cup final to get all our affairs in order, right? I don't, if trades just started popping off right after the games, obviously have to cover all of that here on the show, it would have been a, it would have been a tough sell. Now I get to ease into the offseason, and I'm thankful the NHL teams have. I'm sure you've been kind of waiting, especially with all the moves we're going to talk about that the Calgary might be making this summer. You've been

on the lookout, certainly, but it's nice to have a few days here to ease into the off season. Have you ever broken, or at least had to talk about a trade that happened? been like while you were recording these shows. I'm glad you brought that up. So last summer, first day of free agency, I'm recording a show with Dom Lus Chishin and Jack Fraser. I know what is J. Fresh hockey. And Johnny Goodrow signing with Columbus breaks while we're recording.

And it was five minutes of, you know, as the host, you try to kind of steer the conversation and keep it in check. It was a lot of just like, what, what? The three of us just refreshing our Twitter feeds. and we kept it all in. It was pretty funny. Dom got in a bit of trouble because, you know,

people who live in Ohio and Columbus Blue Jackets fans got mad at him, that he was like, why would he choose that place of all places? And, but it was a very, you know, it was a very natural reaction in the moment. I thought it was very authentic.

But yeah, that's pretty much the only time I can remember something like that happening. Oh, Dom, Dom, Dom, I mean,

look, last summer, not to rehash all that again, but like a lot of people were asking that same question. I have since been to Columbus. it seems like a very nice place. It seems like a lot of former NHLers go back there.

They buy some land. They hang out and enjoy their retirement and all of that. It objectively seems like the arena is really nice too. I get it. But it is still kind of weird that that ended up being the place and not Philadelphia. I mean, I know New Jersey wasn't really in this week six, but Philadelphia people were looking at that for Johnny. Like I can understand why people still think it's weird.

Yeah. Oh, we can do a full show on. that. Let's let's let's let's let's stay away from the topic of what of what happened there. Although I, I co-signed what you're saying. I've never been a Columbus, but I know the NHL All-Star game was there a couple years ago and everyone said they had a great time. And so I've never been, but I'll take that work for it. The can't just startles you, I bet, right?

Oh my God. What's the, what's the canon or doing the, uh, the catwalk in the, uh, in the saddle Canon. The cannon's worse. The cannon is worse. The catwalk, I'm okay with doing the catwalk. But are you okay with people? I'm okay with heights.

I'm okay with walking across the catwalk back and forth. I know there are people that are not okay. I know and not just like, oh, you know, reporters and all that. I've seen like former NHLers, like look at that and be like, I don't know if I want to do that, bro.

I'm okay with the catwalk. Give me the catwalk as opposed to a candid that goes off every time a goal is scored. Like every time you're just chilling and then you wait a couple seconds and then bang. Like I can't have that. Yeah. Well, I probably would dislike both because I'm not only scared of heights, but also I hate like auditory shock.

Like, that's why I don't like horror movies because I just don't like being startled by like that jump scare element. And I feel like that's what that would be like. So I'm out on that as well. Yeah, we relate on that. I don't like horror movies like that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Let's get into it. So this was your first year on the beat covering the Calgary Flames, right? And what a year it was certainly not short on drama or things to cover for you. I'm going to quickly lay out just as a refresher because it's been a couple weeks now for people just sort of where we're at when the Calgary Flames regular season ended. And then we're going to get into a segue into a topic that I want to talk about with you, a story that you just put out on the athletic with a pair of heavy hitters in Katie Strang and Haley Salby. And you guys did a great job. We're going to sort of unpack all that. Similar to when I had you on earlier this season and you had put out that Matthew Kachukh trade or

history and we kind of like unpack that step by step. We're going to do that here today. So the flames ended with 93 points, which was tied despite missing the playoffs for 15th in the NHO with the Islanders, one point more than the Florida Panthers who parlayed that late season playoff berth into a run all the way to Stanley Cup final, as people remember. If there's anything that could have gone wrong last year, it felt like it did for the flames, right? They lost 30 games by one goal, which was second place was the sharks with 23 of those such laws. And they left 17 points on the table in overtime or shootout extra points. They finished 32nd in shooting percentage, which there's 32 teams in the league.

They were also 24th in save percentage. So all of that kind of coalesced. And I think it would be easy to sort of look at that and be like, well, it was just a season from hell, right? Everything that could have gone wrong did. It was out of their control. It's hockey. It's very influenced by these sort of coin flips and variance and luck.

That happens. That'll happen to anyone. You don't want to overreact to it. But it feels like that would be a bit irresponsible based on everything we know because you could just tell all year as the season was transpiring in Calgary that something was amiss, right? That there was something kind of rotten within the organization in terms of you could see it from some of the barbs that were being traded in the media to the looks on players' faces on the bench. If you're going to play the role of a body language doctor, right? Like there was a lot. You don't even have to be, as you were covering the team on a day-to-day basis live with boots on the ground, even from a fly.

even from afar, you could tell something was a bit off. So I guess I wanted to start this conversation with you by kind of looking and trying to unpack how we sort of reconcile all of that, right? How we sort of weigh that in our brain in terms of how much of it was sort of this just like disastrous season that part of it was out of their control and then tying it into your story now here,

how much of it was sort of, well, it's certainly, the things that were going on behind the scenes didn't help. Yeah, I look at this year and I can't help but feel that if one of the, if one of the things that went really wrong, they didn't even have to go super right. If they just went okay. Like the easiest example to pull is Jacob Markstrom, if he just plays the season at a league average level.

This team makes the playoffs. We don't have to think about them as a team that wins the division or is, is one of like the top three teams in the Western Conference. If either they get better goal tending or the goal scoring works out, I mean, I know Tyler Topholi had a career year, but guys like Andrew Montiapani, Elias Lindholm,

Jonathan Huberto, the 60 point drop from that, his final year in Florida to his first year in Calgary, whether you're looking at either of those aspects at whatever end of the ice, this team could make the playoffs. And I still think with the players that they've assembled, I think they could still put together a playoff team for better or for worse, depending on how you view the roster construction and if you want to rebuild.

But when you consider the fact that from preseason, there was some rust and obviously there was going to be rust in preseason, but it felt like some of those pieces weren't jelling. And then they had that little brief period at the beginning of the year where it seemed like it did. And then everything just start to fall off after that, it really just feels like a missed opportunity. and then in the piece we were able to put together on Darrell Sutter, it just felt as if things just beyond behind the scenes

were just kind of made worse or it was kind of flammable at times. I don't think Darrell Sutter helped the case in certain situations. When they were good, he was this kind of hard ass who was saying, hey, like don't get complacent in which I think in some ways you can be that guy, but I think for some of those other people, maybe either will, weren't used to that or just felt like, hey, like, you know, we had a rough preseason and we found a way to get off to the best start in franchise history. Like, maybe you could ease up. That's not what Daryl Sutter is able to do. He is in, he's won cups before he has that style. And I just didn't gel

with some of those players in that room. And then some of the changes he was able to make to with the lines. I still think that getting rid of taking Huberto off that first line, at least at that point of the season when he did in the first part of the year. I still think it was a bit too soon. The over-reliance on players like Milan Luchich, God bless him, a great person to talk to, but when you're putting him on in lieu of guys like Jacopeltie who could give you that energy in the lineup as an example, like, that's going to hurt you. We could also talk about the shootout near the end of the year.

I mean, I get it. Like, if that shootout goes right and they win out and maybe Winnipeg crumbles, we're talking about a different Calgary Flames team. but it's decisions like that that ultimately they don't look great for a guy like Daryl Sutter. And when you look at the totality of a flame season, so many things went wrong for this team when even if they had just been average, they would have just been a playoff team. It would have. And certainly, I think maybe this discussion would sound a bit different at the same time, though. It still would have represented a departure from the previous year, right, where it was, it was, it was.

but what they're 18 points worse, I believe, then in 2021, 2021, I guess the question for me, you know, tying it into this then is for both Craig Conroy and for Ryan Huska as they take over here and try to sort of write the ship and turn things around next season is trying to answer that question of kind of how much, like let's focus on the offensive part of things

because I think I'm with you on the goaltending, right? Like you mentioned if Jacob Marksner had been league average, how about if he just hadn't given up a goal on the first shot he faced in like, what, eight games or however many he did, right? I think that would set a different. different tone certainly and would have given a better chance to win. But, you know, that's, I think that's kind of, that can be goaltending, right?

Like, I wouldn't expect him to have an 8, 93s, 8 percentage again next season, regardless of what they did. He'll bounce back to some degree at least. I agree. He won't be a Vesna finalist, but I would expect much more closer to league average, right? That's for certain. The offense, though, is interesting to me, though, because I wonder how much of it, the drop-off where I mentioned there were 30-second shooting percentage was a reflection of the changes in

personnel they made, right? where maybe we underestimated how much losing Johnny Goodrow and Matthew Kachuk. I know they replaced them with Jonathan Hubertow, who was an excellent playmaker in his own regard. But those two guys leaving were very unique and creative creators for their teammates, right? Johnny in terms of his east-west passing and off the rush, Matthew Kachuk from below the goal line as we saw all season and all postseason from him, how much of it was losing those guys and how much of it was kind of like systemic issues with the Daryl Sutter system. because the previous year, that top line had so much success offensively. But it felt like a lot of them was them just playing outside the system because they had so much cashet and they were so good, right?

It was like, you can't really tell Johnny Goddrow to dump the puck in and then go and throw ahead and try to play Dump and Jays. That's not his game. So he just kind of took the puck and did what he wanted with it. And they had success. In this case, Huberto comes in. And from day one, it felt like it was trying to force a square peg and draw a round hole into getting the team to play a certain way,

which I think Gerald Sutter would have preferred all along. And so they really dumbed down, for a lack of better word, their offensive approach, right? It was a lot of just skate into the zone and just first chance you get, shoot the puck, even if it's a low percentage shot, and then try to retrieve it and do it all over again. And watching the postseason,

you could sort of, one of the big takeaways for me was how a team, like the Golden Knights, who previously used to play that way under Bruce Cassidy, with very similar personnel, totally changed their approach. they went from a shot quantity team to a shot quality team, and they started playing differently. And so I guess the question for the new GM and coach is whether this was a reflection of the personnel

and just not having the chess pieces to play that way or how much of it was the coach asking them to do something. And then with a different voice and a different message and strategy, maybe they can not all of a sudden become an elite shooting team, but at least more of a league average one, which would make the difference between missing the playoffs and making it. It feels like it depends on who you ask, right? because Michael Backlund had his best season as a pro playing like third line minutes behind Elias Linhoman Nazan Khadry. Tyler Tofoli had his best season as a pro and has proven that he could be a first line right winger.

He's done that in three Canadian markets. He's proven that he could be a top line right winger in Montreal. He did it in the short time in Vancouver and he's done that in Calgary. If you ask those two guys in terms of that style, like okay, like, you know, in terms of their statistics, like, okay, it worked out for them. The problem is, is that for Nazan Khadri, It worked for a bit that it didn't work. For Elias Lundholm, your number one center, he had a down year not having Johnny Godreau and Matthew Kachuk

along the way. For Jonathan Hubertoe, he had one really good play in preseason where he kind of made a spin move off the wall and led this breakout. And it's like the nicest secondary assist I've ever seen. And after that, he never looked that confident. It took him how many games to get his first goal. and again he got switched off that first line and then Daryl Sutter at different points

even to accommodate Jack O'Peltie when he eventually got on the lineup he puts him on his opposite wing so many back and forth with Jonathan Huberto and you did a great job of detailing what that offensive style was like it was not creative in any way it was very dull

and you're right it did encourage a lot of shots from distance and not necessarily high quality shots at different points there are a lot of games where the Calgary Flames were out shooting teams and getting chances and not to bring up time to Foley, but he's getting that chance, maybe closer than that, but he's doing that thing where he puts a stick on his helmet. He's looking to the sky like, oh, man, why can't I get these shots?

But not a lot of them were quality and not a lot of the guys that they had were gamebreakers. And that was a problem that surfaced a lot of different points this year. The team knew that they didn't have those game breakers and they needed a lot more from the offensive contributors that they had and they could only do so much. and I hope you and I never have to go through this with a significant other that so many people feel like, oh man, like why did you let them go? Like they were so great for you. Like they're the ones that got away.

Johnny Gidrema and Matthew Kuchuk for pretty much until their careers were done, maybe. That's what it's going to be for this franchise. Those two are going to be the ones that got away for this Calgary Flames team. I still think of that Craig Conroy press conference where he wasn't directly asked about those two players. but it got to a point where Craig Conroy acknowledged that the Johnny Godro thing going the way that it did surprise him and he doesn't want a 2.0 situation and he's going to ensure that never happens again. Like what happened with those two players,

and I get they got something for Matthew Kachuk, but I think the way those two situations were handled were embedded are going to be forever imprinted in the minds of many Calgary Flames fans in that front office. And in terms of creating an offense that is going to be more, dynamic and suitable for the casting characters that they have and if they want to make other moves so be it they know they have to do something very different than what they did previously and i still think even though ryan huska is the head coach a good defensive mind one thing we

haven't even mentioned in all this you know the offense didn't play well the whole tending wasn't enough the defense wasn't that bad yes they had lapses and moments but they weren't allowing a lot of chances on that. It's one thing if Jacob Barksstrom had to deal with so many different pucks going his way and allowed all those chances, but the Calgary Flames are among the teams with the fewest amount of chances allowed per game. Like, I think the defensive structure was good at points for this team, and Ryan Huska seems to think he could improve on it. But the one thing I'm looking out for over the next few days, who's going to be on his coaching staff and who's going to be in charge of that offense? Kirk Muller was in charge of the power play, and it was a very

mid power play. It doesn't seem as if he's going to be back with the team, but who's going to be in charge of unlocking that offense? Even, I'm sure Huska will have his game plan, but whoever's in charge of the power play, whoever's in charge of working with the forwards, that's going to be their responsibility. And I think they should have the spotlight burn on them, because if they can't unlock talent out of this group, it's going to reflect poorly on them. Yeah, they almost need like a, he needs to hire like an offensive coordinator. So sort of like an offensive guru to just run plays and make sure that's why a lot of people wanted Andrew Brunette. That's why a lot of people wanted Andrew Brunette in this market.

You know, he gets a lot of, he got a lot out of that offense in Florida with Jonathan Huberto. It doesn't work out. He ends up going to New Jersey. They turn into a top offense in this league in terms of goals. That's why people were wondering, hey, does Mark Savard make sense? I forget which team in the OHL he's with, but like he's gotten a lot of goals out of that team.

People have asked about Alex Tangay out in Detroit. I don't know if he moves on a lateral move because he's a, he's sort of an associate head coach out in Detroit or at least he works with the power play out there too. Does he want to make that move to do the same thing? But he's at least improved that power play up in Detroit. Like if you're looking around and you're trying to find guys who could make sense, I think Travis Green is also off the market too. That's also someone else that the Calgary Flames could have looked at.

Whoever they get to fill that role, there's a lot of questions that need to be asked about that person. Yeah, Travis Green was brought in to actually replace Andrew Burnett as assistant with the Devils. In New Jersey, yes. So do you find it strange then? Because we all agree that something was amiss within the organization behind the scenes last year. It seems like a lot of that is being attributed to Daryl Sutter's sort of, you know, lack of communication, I guess.

I was going to say communication, but it's clearly like a lack of it and sort of his abrasive tactics in terms of handling relationships and dealing with the players because, you know, it is a different scenario where Brad Tray Living decides to leave. and then obviously gets the job with the Leafs to run in Toronto. But they essentially promoted to like the coach and the GM from within, right? And when a season goes as poorly as last year did for them and you're right, like one bounce here or there and they make the playoffs and it's not that big of an issue, but it's still just like the optics and the tone of last year in Calgary were so bad.

It's strange to me a bit then to sort of turn around and just promote what, within obviously Conroy and Huska were necessarily responsible for what happened last season. But it's generally when it goes that south, you see organizations kind of turn around and try to bring in like fresh voices from from the outside so that they can say like, all right, well, these people had nothing to do with what went wrong. And hopefully that'll represent a change. Instead, Calgary did kind of the opposite. Which is kind of indicative of how much of a not so much of a fit that Daryl Sutter was for that organization,

right? Like you talk about communication. Craig Conroy is a guy who seems to be a good liaison for players and is willing to have those discussions. I mean, even the press conferences we've had with them so far, Duke talks a lot. And I'm not saying that in a disparaging way. He does seem to like the idea of having communication. One thing he mentioned in that press conference before he hired Ryan Huska was that he wanted someone who he wasn't going to be at odds with, someone who was going to be a team player. And that's pretty, again, that's pretty indicative of how the dynamic.

Yeah, it's pretty damning considering what the dynamic was between Bradger Living and Daryl Sutter. I don't, I think considering what Ryan Huska brings to the table, a guy who basically has been laying in wait for an opportunity like this for a couple seasons, considering he worked his way up from junior, then the HL affiliate, then to the assistant coach role with the Calgary Flames. And again, it seems like a really good communicator. And it seems like some of the players on the team might like him. I think I can understand why people think it is weird, but I think it's more of a sign that Daryl Sutter just wasn't the ideal fit and held a lot of power in that organization that might have stifled some of those,

some of those other visions potentially. That's kind of how I see it with the internal hires. I can understand why some people feel, you know, maybe they might carry on some bad habits from the Sutter era, but this is also an opportunity for both of those gentlemen to imprint their own ideas, maybe some that might not have been possible under their former bench boss. Yeah.

Well, I think it's, yeah, especially with how like, you know, strong and established Sutter's personality was. I think it's fair to sort of be like, all right, well, that was kind of isolated or sort of contained to himself, right? It wasn't necessarily pervasive through the organization. You know, in reading your piece, something I kept thinking about is how dynamic a coach needs to be in today's game in terms of not only like skill set in terms of tactics and and sort of running a bench, but also the personality, right?

Because you deal with so many different characters. And you can't like certain tactics will might work well with some players, but we'll rub other players the wrong way. And in particular, you know, we talk about like the sort of peacetime leader versus wartime leader. Like I think it's an entirely different skill set and such a difference to when things are going right the way they did the previous year to then managing a team where things start going south.

And if you don't have that communication in place with that. them, you know, players start struggling, problems arise. And then it's very easy for that to snowball as opposed to getting better because you almost like, you can't, you can't nip it in the butt, right? And it feels like that is kind of the difference between those two seasons here, beyond the personnel. It's sort of when things started to go south, it really started to go south because of that sort of frayed relationship between the coach and the players.

Absolutely. Winning cures all ills. But when that winning doesn't happen and some of the bad stuff is just exacerbated by other antics or or or certain coaching decisions or or other bad stuff that could happen it tends to kind of drain on players and especially for some of those new guys I would imagine that trying to navigate how things were in that locker room it probably was not always the greatest time to be around a darrell setter lead team that is not necessarily winning and you mentioned coaches being dynamic and doing what they need to do off the ice just kind of being these good leaders of

men that, you know, can communicate with their players and ultimately maybe be, not just maybe, but just be good people. I can't help but think of Martin-San-Luie right now in Montreal. I don't know if you saw, but Sean Monaghan just resigned one-year deal with Canadians and a press conference been held and some quotes are going around. Sean Monaghan, I'm paraphrasing a little bit here, commended Bartain-S-Luil-I for helping him love the game. Like, I think that's just so interesting for a guy who, when the hire was.

made in Montreal, a lot of people wonder, huh? Like, why would they do this? A guy with no coaching experience. And now all of a sudden, young players want to play for him. And a guy like Sean Monaghan who is not a young player anymore, who is coming off those, you know, some problems with his hip, he's going out saying like, hey, this is a guy who has helped me find a love for the game, like, and made it really fun to go to the rank. Like, I think if you're a head coach and you're able to do that for your players, that

makes so much difference. And you look at Calgary where the environment was not that great for players. I'm not saying that if you switch coaches necessarily, you're going to get this crazy team that's going to go to the playoffs. But like, they need something along the lines of what Martin San Luis is giving in Montreal right now. And that's what Craig Conroy and Ryan Husker are trying to do. They're trying to change the environment and make it a better place to play. And mind you, there are some logistics physically with how the Saddle Dome is. It's not the state of the art arena. McKenzie Weger made that known when he made those comments

about how they need a new rank. But at the very least, if you create an environment that is suitable for the players where guys actually want to be around and want to come in and work every day and it's not a dreary day, I think it makes some sort of a difference. At the same time,

you know, it's one easy way to ensure that people will like the environment you're in, you win. You could be playing in a bunker. But if you find ways to win games, you find a way to make it work. Well, how about that Don Maloney quote where he was like, there's a show, and I'm I'm going to read out here because I want to reference it.

There's a shelf life for that type of coach. And unfortunately for us, I felt like his time expired with us. And thinking about that shelf life and longevity furniture coaches, John Cooper, Mike Sullivan, Jared Bednar, and Rod Brindamore. That's the full list of coaches who have been with their teams prior to the start of the 2018-19 season, which was less than five years ago, just to kind of reflect how quick that and sharp that turnaround is. and it was pretty clear that regardless of what happened,

there was just like no path forward with bringing Daryl Sutter back here to run the team again. And I guess I'm curious for your take on, as I'm not sure how much reporting you've done on it or how much you know or how much you can say. But, you know, we did hear that report that was kind of like, you know, sources say that a handful of players made it known in their exit interviews that they would ask for a trade if the coach was brought back, right? do we know do we have any further clarity on sort of the the mechanics behind that because Nikita Zedorov also had an interesting quote where he was like, I kind of like play for

Daryl Sutter. But when you commit 50 to 80 million dollars into players, like you kind of favor them instead, which would make the implication that it's understandable, right, that Jonathan Huberto clearly didn't get along with a coach. I guess it must have been more than that, though, because I wouldn't say that as a player, Jonathan Huberto has a ton of leverage right now on the trade market because I don't think teams are lining up to pay them $10.5 million for the next eight seasons with like 60 plus of it in signing bonuses. So it must have been, you know, more widespread and deeper than that. But as you mentioned, there were a handful of players that not only like liked playing for him, but also had career years and thrive. Right. So it was, it is interesting that it was kind of like a bit of a divisive topic in that regard. So here's my understanding of what the locker room was like. There were like basically three camps of people.

There are the people who liked playing for Daryl. So think of guys like Tyler Tofoli, your Trevor Lewis's, your Nikita Zedorovs. I think you could put it to Mila Luchich in there considering the playtime he was getting. I think there were guys who were probably not fans of the Daryl Sutter style. And all I'll just say about that is I don't think you have to think too hard about people who probably belong in that camp necessarily. But there were also people who were very much in the middle who were, it's weird to say that they didn't care about the style.

But I think they were just like, okay, I'm just going to live with how this works. And I think that's a very interesting division. More often than not, whenever we hear stories about, you know, a divisive locker room, we just assume, okay, there's one side or the other side. Not often do we think, okay, there is three factions of this

and there's a side of people who are just kind of in the middle, just looking around of what's going on. And it's just like, I'm just happy to be here. I just want to see if you can make this work. Oh man, maybe it's not going to work. But like, I don't know. I'm going to try to find a way to make it work. Like, yeah, I think that's what's important in all this.

In terms of the clarity, I don't think people have to think too hard about who might have been unhappy with the situation that they were in. And, hey, maybe in terms of some of those free agents coming up, maybe we could figure out who, maybe not in terms of figure it out, but I think some clues could be kind of sparsed out in terms of

whoever ends up leaving the team among some of those pending unrestricted free agents, maybe, who knows, but all I'll say is is that it was very, Darryl Sutter wasn't necessarily the best conduit to bring everyone together with the locker room that they had, at least,

in the context of the season that they had last year, obviously a different story of the year before. but yeah, it just, it was an untenable situation, especially with the money they allotted out for some of those bigger named players and the production that they had, something had to give. All right, Julian, let's take our break here.

And then when we come back, we'll keep talking about, well, instead of living in the past, we'll look ahead. We'll look ahead to what the flames can do differently, what this summer holds for them in next season. Looking forward to that. You're listening to Hockey Ocast streaming

on the Sports Night Radio Network. Everything Canucks before and after the game. Canucks Central with Dan Riccio and Satyar Shah. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back here in the Hockey Pediocast with Julian McKenzie talking about the flames. So let's kind of look ahead here, Julian. Let's, for Ryan Huska, kind of in terms of turning this around heading into next season,

we'll wait to talk about potential personnel changes. Let's kind of work under the assumption that the team is going to be back for the most part, right? Especially the core and the main pieces involved. it feels like for all we said about how their offensive system last year lacked creativity or sort of detail I guess it was very simple oversimplified it feels like Jonathan Hubert O should be the one player that can fill that role of even if things bogged down again next season breaking free a little bit and you know nothing's happening for a while he gets out on the ice and he just sets up a great A chance

for someone else and there was obviously not nearly enough of that last season we've spoken in the past about kind of what the issues would have been like for him, what went wrong. I think clearly, like, if I was Ryan Huska right now, my number one priority this offseason would be trying to sort of devise a game plan for getting him going in some regard, because obviously a repeat of last season would be unacceptable. Absolutely.

I would look at some notes from the 2021, 2021, 2022 season where you're seeing him be part of these odd man, where the Pampers are attacking the line and they're getting their chances and he's going towards the net. He's, I mean, he's not necessarily this fluid skater, but he has all this open space to be able to maneuver around, either get a shot off or try to make a pass play. I think if you're taking notes from that and just trying to go into the new season with the idea that you need to get this player going, not just because of the fact that he's going to make $10.5 million, but because of the fact that at his best

he's one of the better passers in this league he can be a playmaker even Daryl Sutter for all the fuss of that relationship at the beginning of that relationship Daryl Sutter went out there and said he's probably the best passer in franchise history

like that's not someone who was at least visibly was trying to dump on the guy for lack of a better term and you might know what I mean by that but like I think that the organization knew what they knew what they had in a player like Jonathan Hubertow and they need to put him in the best position to

succeed whether it's pointing him with the best possible linemates they can do they go back to the well of him and Elias Linholm working together or Nossman Cadry or Michael Backlin they find or if Michael Backlin stays mind you or if Lindholm stays mind you there's a whole bunch of questions that go on with that it may have to come from another edition that they make during the offseason who knows but whatever offensive game plan they have in mind because Because Greg Conroy has made it clear that he wants some sound defensive play at the back, but he wants creativity at the forefront. It starts with Huberto and the linemates that he plays with.

Yeah, they need to figure out a way to optimize and I guess modernize their offense and allow for a bit more of that creativity and risk tolerance, right? Like he's going to make mistakes, but you have to live with it. And it's bizarre because I've spent so much time thinking about this and discussing it. I know he turned 30 now, right? And I didn't necessarily expect him to replicate a 115 point season the way he did previously because clearly the stars aligned and everything went right for him. But watching him play last year, he was almost performing like he had had all of his like powers sat by the Bond Stars, right? Like he just like couldn't do the most simple things that he used to make look routine in the past and should be for him.

Like the shot rate, he's never going to be a shot for shoot for his player just plummeted to career lows. he posed no threat there. And then a lot of the passes were just like a step behind or a step off. And maybe that was just playing with new players, new situation, right? First time in his career, like completely out of rhythm. So you would have to kind of bank on that. It just feels like there has to be, I know it's easy to make the jokes, right? And certainly staring down the barrel of eight more years of 10.5 million.

It's a very scary proposition. But, man, there just has to be something closer to the middle here than we saw last year. And so I would bank on that. But, you know, the other thing that I would say, Ryan, I can certainly do is, is improve the usage because at 515, Blake Holman led all their forwards last year with 1327, 515 minutes per game. Milan Luchich was 12th on the team at 1055. That means everyone else was in between essentially 11 minutes and 13 minutes of ice time

per game. And that's a very Darrell Sutter thing as well, right? Like, just like, let's roll the lines. Everyone is just equal opportunity. and that's not like the best way to get the most out of your players. And so I would imagine that actually having some sort of structure between the forward lines would actually go a long way towards making necessary changes as well. So that's something I would point to as well as something that the new coaching staff could do.

That's one thing we have to keep in mind in all of this. And Craig Conroy was open about it when we, when the press conference happened for Ryan. Jonathan Huberto played a role in the coaching search. and one thing that he wanted out of the new head coach was someone who was going to play him more. There were stretches during the season where you're right, Jonathan Huberto's ice time, much lower than what's expected from him,

and in situations where they needed a goal, the team did not use him. And for a player of Jonathan Huberto's caliber, I completely understand why you would be frustrated about the idea that you're not being used in those situations. So I think near the top of that list of things they need to accomplish in terms of making it a much more suitable environment and making it a better situation for Jonathan Huberto. It means using him. It means putting him in situations where he can be that guy and also putting together an offensive game plan where he's able to showcase his talents.

Like I'm not saying just throw out everything and build the team around Jonathan Huberto, but at least make it better for him. he's he's your guy for the next little while and he's getting paid a lot like you can't just have a guy like that wasting away it's like that meme of that with that Bugatti and that like little like right and then he's like it's kind of like that wait so which one was Huberto last year was he the was he the run down shack or was he the Bugatti sorry I had to um damn listen he's playing closer to that burnt house man he's playing close to that burnt house but he might be the Bugatti next year if he gets he got to be the Bugatti next year if he He could be.

He should be. I mean, he's certainly being paid as such. You know, and the other interesting thing here for me is so obviously I would expect them to make at least one significant trade, if not multiple. And we'll talk more about that a second here, I promise. But just looking at their cap sheet right now,

they've got like 80 million roughly assigned to eight forward, six defensemen and two goalies. And it was interesting hearing a lot of, like Craig Conroy kept coming back to how he wants this team to be younger, right? to have more youth in it, more like dynamic speed and skill. And part of that is certainly just because of the way they played last year. I think part of that is also acknowledgement of the reality that they will need a couple of players on ELCs contributing to this team just because of the way they've structured their salaries right now. Even if they make some of these trades where you're like, all right, we're going to trade Noah Hanifin or we're going to trade Elias Linholm.

Well, those players are making significantly less than they're probably actually worth. So you're not going to trade Elizland Holmes 4.85 million and replace it with ready made players who are somehow making less than that, right? Because Elizland Holmes probably an $8 million player. And so for them to improve this team and add to it beyond just, I think, hoping that a new coach is going to get more out of the players, they're going to need some of these young players integrated and actually utilized, right? And that was a big point of contention last year with Darrell Sutter, certainly, you know, the sort of Nate year. It was like publicly ridiculing. Jacob Elche after his debut game. I think whether it's him or Coronado or Zeri or Dustin Wolf obviously is a backup, if some of these Daniel Vlidar rumors are true. I imagine part of the appeal for Huska here was his appetite to work with young players, right, because he's obviously got that track record. It's been a few years now, but whether it was in the WHL or the HL,

he's had success working with young players, and that's going to be imperative for this team if there is a way forward. Absolutely. You laid that out really well. I'll say this with the pending UFAs that they have and the potential for trades. I think you have it right there as well in terms of what the flames should be looking for. I think if they put themselves in a position where they're able to accumulate draft picks, they're able to accumulate capital for prospects. Even guys who are young in their careers and are about to take that next step but are on ELCs and maybe you can insert them onto a third line or fourth line. Just young players. who could be a part of your nucleus and could help you dominate for years to come, I would imagine that has to be part of the thinking for some of these returns. To your point about maybe not getting ready-made players that are ready now, I mean, if this team intends on competing and they find themselves in a situation where they could get a player like that, I wonder if that's something that would suit them.

I wonder if that's something that would interest them kind of in a really weird way, but something, I mean, you're not going to get that same deal again. But like the Chuck Huberto trade is essentially that, where you had an asset that was young, stepping into the best years of his career, but was not interested in staying in Calgary long term. And then you make a move and you get two pieces who are in their window to win now and you commit to those guys and you're in the window that you're in right now.

I don't know if they're going to be able to replicate that trade again. I don't know if that is the idea there. But I can't help but think that if they do find something that works for them, that they would necessarily turn that down. But ultimately, I think if they put themselves in a position where they're able to accumulate draft capital, like I tried to do the exercise with Noah Hannafin to varying results, I know I'm getting cooked on Twitter for some of the trade proposals that were out there. And I'm okay with that.

But I think if they're in a position where they're able to get a really good young player that could be a part of their nucleus, even if they're not necessarily like, okay, they're the first line replacement for the Lyslandholm, for example, if that happens. But if they get someone who bolsters that prospect group or a really good young player on a cheap deal, that's a pretty good starting point. You can, depending on if teams like Buffalo or Pittsburgh, I was on another radio show today, and someone mentioned the idea, what if Arizona is willing to flip their second first round pick? Like I think within that 11 to 15 range, if the flames want to move up.

And I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to, if they saw one of the guys that they're looking on the draft wanted to do the, wanting to get those guys as they're falling. It wouldn't surprise me if the flames tried to, you know, make something work where they could get themselves into 1115 while moving up from the 16th overall position. And then they have assets, guys on expiring deals who they could use to be in part of those deals where they could find themselves getting more than just the first round pick. right. So I think there are possibilities for Craig Conroy if some of those guys that he would like to resign don't end up doing so. Well, I assume, you know, what happened last summer will inform a lot of the decisions as well, right, in terms of not wanting to relent on that leverage, right, and like being able to sort of control what you get back in return for some of these players while you can. At the same time, though, I don't know, what's your take on this, like in terms of how

they play this because I, from what I gather, I don't think there's a lot of appetite for like taking a law, a very long term rebuild of you here. Like I think they, they do want to, if they make some of these trades, I don't think it's going to be like Elias Litton home for a prospect and two picks. Like I think they want to be competitive next year. Maybe not necessarily a Stanley Cup contender, but certainly in the mix in the Pacific and trying to make the playoffs. I don't, especially with the sour taste of last season and, you know, there's this idea of like a new rank coming and then everything around the organization. I don't think they want to be like, all right, let's tear everything down to studs, trade all these players. And five years from now, we'll revisit this, even though that, you know, theoretically would be an interesting thing because because of all these players, they could just control the entire trade market.

I just don't think that's the tack they're going to take. And maybe because of the money you've committed to Hubert O and Weaker and in Codry, that would also. kind of push you in that direction as well. Absolutely. I think the moves last summer ultimately put the flames on a course towards trying to be a competitive team, again, for better or for worse. And my thinking is that if they have to move on from an Elias Lin home, I would think that they'd have to try to get players that could help them in the now.

While I do think it's not impossible for trades to happen. where, you know, it's just like a guy like Noah Hanofin where you're thinking, okay, get me pieces that maybe they might not help me immediately, but maybe, you know, could boss, bolster up your prospect pool, add some draft pick capital. I think there's a way to make that work for some of the pieces you're able to move on from. Like a Michael Backland, for example, like 35 is coming off his best season as a pro. If you want to go down that route, I mean, how many teams are willing to give you like another, like you're not getting a ready-made first-line center for Michael Backland.

But you know what I think would be pretty good to do for a guy at that. But at that point in his career who wants to compete on another team, that's a guy you probably move for some kind of prospect or some kind of draft. Because you're better off getting the futures from that type of player as opposed to a similar type of player who's also aging and is taking up a roster spot from a young player in your lineup. For Elias Lindholm, for example, yeah, definitely you want some type of player who if they're not going to be able to fill that specific void, I mean, that might not

even be good enough. You need to have some deal that is going to set you up to win now. And I think it's just based off those contracts they did last summer. But I will say that I think there are a lot of fans who look at the roster of the team. I think they were pretty down on how last year went. And I think they would love to see, there are fans that would love to see some kind of rebuild or retool on the fly, even if they have to kind of lift with the Hubert O'Codry. contracts as they are. But when you have those contracts in place and those guys are in their window to win now,

it's really hard to justify tearing it down to the studs. And those other teams aren't necessarily going to want those contracts either. It's terrifying, a thing that Michael Backlin will be 35 years old this season. It feels like yesterday that I was a young buck myself, fighting the Michael Backlin war, is trying to convince people that he was actually good when he was in his mid-20s and being wildly underutilized.

And here we are. a good player. He's an awesome player. This is my first year watching him just like focused intently on watching him. He is a good player. He's a good defensive center. And for so many different instances throughout the year, throughout this past season, if the team wanted to integrate a young guy and they've tried to put him with, say, we need him to go with someone who's really defensively responsible, you put him on with Michael Becklin. Jaco Peltzay went through that. even Jonathan Huberto, who still in that first year, still trying to find a way to make it work, he actually had some good moments playing alongside Michael Backlin.

And Michael Backlin and Blake Coleman together working in the offensive zone, creating turnovers, turning those into offensive chances. That was really fun to watch at times. The only other duo I could think of that was more stable in terms of their placement in the lineup was Elias Lindholm and Tyler Tofoling. Like Michael Backlin and Blake Coleman, what those two were able to do together, that's a pretty underrated dynamic duo. It's not going to go up with some of the other top lines and top dynamic players you see around the league. The Flames, I think, had something really good with those two players, Coleman and Backlin on their third line.

And if it gets to a point where Backlin just says, hey, like, I want to move on, that's going to be a really sad day for a lot of Flames fans. A lot of people see him as a captain, the longest 10. your player on the team, play over 900 games in the flames uniform. That's going to be a sad day if that happens. Well, he's going to be 35, Linholm 29, Tafoli 32, Hanifin 27, Tanniv 34, Zadora of 29. All those guys are UFA's summer 2024. And I bring that up because, you know, Baclin makes the 5.35 million next year. Everyone else on that list is below 5 million.

And so if you are positioning yourself as in the trade market as like, whoa, come give us your guys with term on their deal. who are younger who can help us contribute, like almost every contender can, especially if there's some money retained, can make that work and pay a premium for it, right? Like there's going to be a laundry list of teams lining up to acquire their services.

And so that's why it's such a fascinating. Here's my thing about that. I think the extension is the big thing here, because it's one thing to look at a guy like Linholm or Hanifin and be like, yeah, of course we want this guy on our team. He's still relatively cheap in that final year of his deal. it's a whole other thing when you can't get that player to commit to an extension. And say, for example, if you're Buffalo and you have all this cap space,

you have all these young players you could offload for a Hanifin, for example. And Calgary comes at you, hey, give us Peyton Krebs in your first round pick and maybe like Ryan Johnson, one of their defensive prospects. Are you doing that deal if Noah Hanifan says he doesn't, he's not sure about extending? I think the willingness for some of those players to commit long term, maybe specifically more in the case of Lindholm and Hanifin, I think that means everything in terms of what type of return the Calgary Flames can get. That's interesting.

I would say if I'm the Sabres, and I've given this a lot of thought, Chris Tanev is the one that interests me a lot more. Not only because of his hand in this, but also just I think like from a skill set perspective, like Hanifin's clearly a better player at this point of his career or a more versatile player in terms of things he can do, But Tanev is almost like made in a lab, especially for one year as a partner for one of their young defensemen to kind of like commandeer that.

And also, I believe, he has a no partial no move or whatever, but he did play as college hockey in Rochester, I believe as well. So I think he would be potentially open to that. I'd be, but you know, I read your, I read your Hanifan piece on trade proposals. And obviously it was very well thought. No, because listen, like I'm going to next week, I'm going to do a big trades I'd like to see. this summer podcast and it's a lot of going to be a lot of ideas that are out there and are never going to happen. And I hate when people are like, oh, that's a bad trade. And then it's a lot easier to dump on it without actually concocting a trade of your own that makes sense, right? Like,

this is supposed to be a fun exercise and at least get the wheel spinning about potentially interesting fits and stuff. So I'm not going to roast you. I will say though, and I'm not a huge Noah Hanifan fan as a player. Like I think he's fine. Like he's a good player. I can see the appeal for him. I'm not as high on him as I think a lot of hockey people or NHL GMs might be. And so I think you were undershooting the returns on Hannafin in that deal for the most part because I think I think obviously the extension would would factor into this. But as a player who makes under $5 million next year is in that peak age range and you could like, you know, the size speed combo. It's a very desirable profile. I could just see especially with how like thin the trade market for defense

is of his caliber, I could see a team paying an absolute premium for him. So I actually do think it makes sense for Calgary to do that type of trade like that because they could come out of it ahead in terms of what they get back without necessarily crippling their team next season. Absolutely. If you're getting like a high draft pick, I still look at those teams that 1115 range. If any of them are interested, you can make a first round pick swap and you're able to get a good prospect and even a good young player who you could put into your lineup right now,

I think that's a good framework for something to work. I think that that's not a bad idea, at least as a starting point in terms of negotiations. I just think in terms of trying to get some younger players into your lineup, some guys who could be dynamic, who could be creative, who could get something going. I think it's possible in a no hand of him trade. And yeah, you're right. I think I definitely did underrate him a little bit. I did just, I kind of saw some of those other offers being done by some other sites that were trying to do it. I kind of thought, okay, maybe they're overvaluing him a little bit.

And I tried to just kind of come at it from the other side of it. and I think in certain instances, I did undervalue him a little bit. I'm okay to admit my mistakes on that. It's an exercise. You're throwing spaghetti at the walls and you're hoping something sticks. And like, you know, I tried to go at some other colleagues. I'm like, hey, like, does this work? Like, does this offer work?

And you're trying to find something that that works. I still thought that Pittsburgh deal I tried to do would have been a good idea. And worse comes to worse, you buy out, Michael Granlin. I don't know. I tried not to look at the comments. So I have no idea how people felt about that trade. But for context, Try to remember off the top of my head.

There was definitely a first round pick swap in there because Pittsburgh picks 14th. Yes. I really wanted Piero de V. Joseph out of Pittsburgh. I think he's a good mobile defenseman with size who's much younger than Noah Hanofin and maybe could turn into a player with similar production value. Getting one of their better prospects in Ty Smith was also part of that as well.

And all you have to do is just take on the Michael Grambling contract, which fine, maybe doesn't clear caps. space for you at the end of that move, but you could buy him out, which could play a role in how that works, or you try him out for another year. He had a guy with decent production before he got shipped off to Pittsburgh. It could work in theory.

You could just kind of put him in your top nine. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But at the very least, you get younger on defense, and you get to some controllable contracts as a result of it. And you move up in the first round. Like, of all the deals there, Like I think the Buffalo one for me Where it was I think Peyton Krebs in the first

For Hanifin in the first Maybe you add another piece to that Like that could be improved upon I think that framework was okay But the Pittsburgh one I thought that was That was I think you could find a way To make that work The Duclair one maybe a little bit of bias

I still think the flames could have gotten I still think the move to make Is to get Anthony Duclair And just kind of put him back with Jonathan Hubbardo And try to recreate what was done In that year Huberto did well definitely you could have added more to that, but I think in terms of the draft picks that Florida

doesn't really have to offer, maybe it's a bit of a non-starter. But I'm not willing to admit every single one of those deals was trash. No, it was a good. It was a good piece. I recommend checking it out, man. This was a blast. I'm glad we got to do this. I'm looking forward to the office season and seeing what the flames do and your coverage of it. I'll let you quickly

let the listeners know where they can check you out or what you got in the works. I just have to say with the piece that was referenced at the beginning of the show on Daryl Sutter, you could read that at the athletic. I tried to contribute as much as I could, but the heavy hitters, Katie Strang and Haley Salvia, they did tons of heavy lifting to make that piece work. And the piece is nothing without those two. I had ideas that I tried to make as good as I could,

but ultimately the piece is what it is because of the work that Katie and Haley were able to do. Seriously, like seeing those two join to be a part of what we had trying to go on, it was kind of like a weirdest. It was like the Avengers coming together. You've seen all these editors and like all these writers come in. You're like, oh, shoot, this is, there's a lot of really talented people who are working on this. And I tried to contribute where I could. But Haley and Katie were the heavy hitters on that project. And I got to shout them out.

So hit up the piece at the athletic. Hit up my work with the Chris Johnston show as part of the Steve Dangel podcast network. And of course, zone time with Yahoo Sports as well. Awesome, buddy. up the great work enjoy this offseason we'll check in with you soon and thank you to the listeners for listening to us and we'll be back tomorrow with another episode of the hockey pdio cast as always streaming on the sports net radio network