The Hockey PDOcast - Charlie Lindgren’s Breakout, and Next Candidates to Do So

Episode Date: April 11, 2024

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Kevin Woodley to take a victory lap about Charlie Lindgren’s monster season, discuss how much of a concern Alexander Georgiev’s seeming shakiness is for a long Avalanche playoff run, and highlight some goalies that could be good candidates for bigger workloads next year. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovin. Welcome to the Hockey PEDEOCast. My name is Dimitri Philpovich, and joining me in studio is my good buddy, Kevin. Woodley, Kevin. What's going on, man? Not much. Not much.

I'm in a really good mood. Our good friend, shout out Dom, the producer, if you haven't heard of 32 thoughts, for getting us online here. So, like, I have my special numbers from ClearSight Analytics, so I'm rare to go. I was a little down when I came in, you know, like, but I'm, Fired up? No, Dom's got me fired up. Thank you, Dom. This is a PDOCAST first.

Usually it's a staple where I ask you a question. You're like, well, if the numbers would load here, and then we start filibustering for 25 minutes, and then we finally get them, but we've already switched topics seven times, and so the numbers aren't really relevant to the conversation anymore. Well, I'm going to make them relevant today because I've got them. I'm just giving you a hard time.

I love it when you're here in studio. It's always a special day. The listeners love it. The Discord always blows up. The Dragon Ball Z gifts and memes in there are always off the charts whenever you're in people love it. Promise I will eventually get on to the Discord thing, but, you know, my stat, I worried about it disrupting my status as one of the olds. Yeah, well, the moderator is actually, like, said that they'll help you run your account if they, if need be just to get you in there so that you're aware of what people are talking about.

Well, they do other tech support for me, like Dom did to get me online today. Again, fully living up to my reputation as an old. So here's the plan for today. We're going to catch up on stuff I've had on my mind since we last spoke. We'll take some of the listener questions from now for mentioned Discord. This is our last show we're doing together before the playoffs, which is always my favorite time of the year because we can actually break down like series and trends and all that stuff. But we'll get to that. Here's what the plan for today.

And this is a good timing I'm having you in because we are coming off of a masterclass performance by PDO cast favorite Charlie Lingren last night in a must win for the Washington Capitals. And I want to talk to you about Lingren because I feel like the past couple times I've had you on, we've sort of tangentially referred to him. right, we always say, oh, we love that guy, but we never actually get into a full conversation about it. And so I want to talk to you about him, the season he's having, and what he's meant for this Capitals team, because we were certainly high on him two summers ago when he first signed, right? The same summer, they actually spent a bunch more money on Darcy Kemper, and you prophetically

said that this was one of your favorite signings, I believe, of the summer. We got to find that audio, because, like, I feel like I don't get to pat myself on the back enough, and that was, I'm taking that as a, as a, I've taken a lot of ELs lately, but I'm taking a dub on that one because I believe what I said was we will look back on the Charlie Lindgren signing as the best signing of that free agent class and if you get to them into the playoffs

at 1.3, 2 years later, yeah, I'm taking that one. Now how do the capitals keep doing this? Because we're going on about, I'd say, I don't want to say necessarily unprecedented because I think like if you look at what the predators have had in net or even the Rangers now fewer goalies

but just in terms of like the high end play of the guys they've had can certainly, mirror it, but the volume of high-caliber goleys that have come through Washington over the past 15 years or so, a lot of whom they drafted and developed in-house, obviously Lindgren isn't one of those. They went out and signed them in free agency after years of being in Montreal system and then St. Louis. But the point remains that they almost seem obligated by the CBA to at least have one goalie that's really good and that we really like at all times. What's their secret sauce here. Like how are they doing this in terms of having this branched out goalie tree now

where there's teams that every year no matter who's in that for them, we're always wondering, oh man, this team just can't find a goalie. Their performance keeps faltering. And despite all the names in front of them changing and everything, the capitals always seem to have someone. Yeah, it's a good point. I think you can trace it back probably to them being one of the first teams to, even though they've moved off it since, but one of the first teams to embrace a goalie to apartment, you know, when they had Mitch Korn there, who obviously has ties to, you know, mentioned Nashville as another team. And, you know, he brings in Scott Murray as his choice to, you know, starting in the American hockey league and then move up and replace him.

You know, they've just, there's been a nice continuity there from a coaching standpoint. They had, and I'm brain cramping on his name, Alex. It's just, he's Alex. He's now the goalie coach for the Detroit. Troy Red Wings. They had him in the American League behind Scott once Scott moved up. Just, you know, if you've got good coaching,

who also, and this is an assumption on my part, I don't know the ins and outs of how involved they are, but I would assume they have a voice in acquisition when it comes to making some of these decisions, at least some voice. You know, I know analytics, including

ClearSight, I don't know if they're a subscriber now, but we're a part of them winning a cup, them being one of teams to recognize like hey offense is created east west and if you just throw it at the net against today's goaltenders without a lot of traffic or without some of the other elements you're just essentially turning the puck over i've actually sat and watched a game with scott murray and you know seeing them take shots off the rush and heard him whisper under his breath all that's a turnover and i'm thinking about like most of the people in the stands watching are like oh it's a good

shit off the rush and right man you don't make that pass across it really is you're just just you know giving the goalie a chance to control it freeze it or pump it into the crowd for a faceoff so I think probably a lot of those factors all add up. You know, and hey, listen, like there's misses too, right? And you mentioned Kemper. If not for Charlie Lindgren, you know, are we having a conversation about Darcy Kemper that echoes what they have? Because remember the other guy in that free agent class, Jack Campbell, with the Evanton Oilers? Right.

So, you know, even, and even so much volatility in that, even with Lindgren, right? Like, it's really easy. I'm taking the backpats now because he was, what, like 42 of 43 last night to beat the Red Wight? but I was frankly worried and been on other programs this week where I was like man I wonder if they've overplayed him here like it looks like you know it may be catching up to him a little bit and that's the tough spot right when you get a guy in a heater like that at what point especially when you're going to chase like this

do you recognize diminishing returns and the benefits of a day off but if you don't feel like you can win when he's not in there can you afford to give him a day off like at what point of that sliding scale of always at 85 80 75% do you need to to skip a game to get them back to 90. And I wondered if they had reached that stage and he shut me up quickly with just a really great performance against the Red Wings.

I mean, the 6.35 million the capital spent on the goalie position in the summer of 2022 was money well spent. Don't ask how it's divvied up between the two guys. Right. But in totality, they're certainly getting their money's worth here. No, Lindgren was phenomenal. You mentioned the 42 or 43 was unfairly robbed

by a meaningless goal and literally the final second of the game to make it a 2-1 game instead of 2-0 and it got robbed of his shutout, but otherwise was sensational. It got the luck of a few friendly posts, I think, along the way. But played remarkably well, and you're right. Like, his season-long numbers have taken a little bit of a hit recently. And I think part of that is the reality of the situation, too, right? There's been a couple games sprinkled in there that really bring the numbers down overall.

But if you actually look at it, it was like a game, the Capitals were just never really in, and they were just getting blasted. and he essentially just stayed in there and took the goals against when I don't think, regardless of who was in that, it would have ultimately made a difference. Right, and those are the ones where you wonder, hey, like, at what point do you decide

to maybe take some of that rest in some of those games too? But anyways, like, you're right, his numbers have come down, but it doesn't sort of diminish the performance. He's been really good for them all year. You know who else sort of this reminds me of? Alex Nadelcovich with the Pittsburgh Penguins. Because he was having a really good season.

And again, we talk about volatility and how hard it is to stay at the top level. He's having, I remember, I did do a story on USA hockey. And Ned's always a guy I love to talk to. He'd been in the program. We'd seen all these American, like, at that point in the season, I think it was around the trade deadline. I think he was one of, there were seven of the top 11,

say percentages were American, and I want to say like 11 of the top 20, and he was in that list of top 20. And then like after the trade deadline, a month later, he wasn't in that list of top 20. But outside of that sort of thing, three week, almost four week period where the penguins sort of came unraveled after after moving Gensel and looking like they were waving the white towel.

Like, he's back. But this isn't just a late season heater up, like the blip is that one month. Everything else has been really solid all year long. And when we look ahead to free agent classes of next season, he's a guy that I think, you know, the right team, you know, if you put in the right environment with the right team, like there's a guy I'd be considering buying on for sure. Well, let's put a pin in that because I think we're going to have a question later from the listeners that that might be your answer to. But just while we're on Lingren here, you mentioned the usage, and I think that's certainly a big part of this story, right?

He's up to 46 games this season. He had played 60 NHL games in total over his seven seasons in the league previously, and I think like 31 of those or something came last year in his first year with the Capitals. 31 of 44 games since the new year, 25 of 31 since March 1st. He's played in 13 of the last 14 Capitals games. So it's clearly adding up. But still at the same time, I don't really blame Spencer Carberry and the Capitals for leaning on them

because really the only reason they've even gotten to this point where there's three or four games left and they're currently sitting in a playoff spot in the East, albeit part of it is because of the competition around them. But it's been because Lingren essentially pulled them up by the bootstraps and got them here. I get it, but there does hit a point where, like you said, when you hit in, you get into that sliding window of diminishing returns where it's like, okay, man, do we keep rolling him

out here for, say if it's four games left? Do we roll him out for four at 70% or do we give him the first one off and get him back to 90 for the next three? And those are the types of questions that I'm sure they're having. You're right, you can't afford to lose a game, can't afford to give away a game, but do you risk giving away three or four if you pound a guy into the ground? Well, and the penguins are kind of facing a similar dilemma with, Ned actually funny enough, right? Because he's been playing because Jari was out for a while and then

he's been playing really well. And now they're getting to this point where it's like this guy who's not necessarily used to playing this much, not that any goal he should be playing literally every single game, but he's playing well. So you kind of want to ride that hot hand and there's such a short runway here, but also that kind of hangs in the back of your mind where you see. And the team might just be much more well equipped to answer this, right? Because you might be seeing like indicators that are sort of showing up in the video. Yeah. All right. He's not quite as sharp in his movement or his reeds or he just needs a bit of a refresher here. And it's individual, right?

Like we saw it and to me, I guess the goal is I get to see the most are in Vancouver, right? And we used to see that with Markstrom, right? Like I can remember there were times where Markstrom would be on a heater and on a tear, but you could sort of see the slippage starting and all of a sudden they would go to Anders Nilsson. I remember there was one point in that career where Anders had won in like two months, but they went to Anders Nelson because the goalie coach saw those like Jacob didn't just need a rest

he needed to reset on some technical things and get back to those foundational elements because they had slipped and so yeah they gave him a game off and that meant he could work for the goalie coach for three straight days and you got him back up to 99, 99, 95% and winning again and so that's where the relationship with the goalie coach

and the goalie and honesty and a goalie coach that knows what each guy looks like like when they're on and what they what slips when they start to get fatigued that that's where those things are important that's where important to have a head coach that trust those elements as well and trusts because the head coach is the one that has to answer for the decision but so it takes a lot of trust to be like hey like yeah like we need to give them a night off because we got four other games this week and let's give ourselves the best chance to win the you know the rest

of them as opposed to playing him in all of them and maybe diminishing our chance to win any I think you and I have spoken about this, but let's circle back to it because I think you made an interesting point there. And I think listeners would also be fascinated by it because often, you're right, like depending on the outcome, it all lays at the feet of the head coach. And in particular, like, if a goalie gets run into the ground and starts slipping up at the worst possible time, we kind of wind up thinking, oh, man, this coach just messed up here in terms of relying on him too heavily, not trusting his backup. certain coaches get reps for like mismanagement of goalie usage or relying too much on their starters or potentially like their comments in the media after where it's like diminishing them a little bit and we know sometimes confidence can be very fragile in that regard I I already know what your answer is going to be here it's going to be like well it varies from organization

organization but generally what's that flow chart like from your estimation in terms of like on a game day because we know the team certainly especially at the start of the year map out kind of all right, these are the games the starter is going to get. These are the games we want to work the backup in, and then we'll go accordingly from there. But just in terms of like, because I think people mistakenly put it all on the head coach. And I think in reality, for a lot of these organizations now, especially as teams have gotten smarter and built out their staffs,

it's generally like going through a bunch of different opinions and voices before it ultimately comes to the coach going in front of the media and announcing which goal he's starting. Okay, so, you know, I've kind of, waffle on this a little bit, and maybe it's because it does vary, and I hear different examples, but I sort of thought more of them, like I think you're right, everybody has a voice. I thought more of them went with what the goalie coach said. And increasingly, I think it's, the goalie coach gets to give their opinion like everyone

else and is part of this process and in a good relationship, I would suggest taking that opinion. But the head coach typically has veto power here, and I know it's been exercised, and I know there are times when it gets exercised and potentially ends up being costly. But that's the reality. The head coach has the final say. I know there's been some situations over the year where I don't want to say it wasn't the case, but where whatever the goalie coach said ended up happening.

But definitely I think in most organizations the head coach gets the final and that includes overruling a recommendation. Hey, and listen, goalie coaches can get it wrong too. It's not like they're infallible by any means. But there have been times, you know, I may know a few this year where I think maybe it has gone the other way. And sometimes nobody notices because it works out fine, but other times, you know, maybe overtime it becomes a problem.

Okay, one final note on Lingard, and then we'll move on. I don't often put together mixtapes of goalie saves because generally it's not the most appealing for, viewers, right? They want to see the goals, they want to see the cool plays. You don't want to see goalies making amazing saves. And I know your opinion as well, generally if you're making high high, high, high, real saves, that's not a good four-go-law. Usually, I mean, I've written columns on it. If you're making a highlight real save, it usually means you made a mistake, although the game has gotten so crazy that not necessarily so anymore.

Well, and in this case, a Lingren Glovesave compilation is going to hit different because I can think of the wrong half. or six that he's caught where I don't even think he's been out of position. It was just a remarkable shot that was going for a very difficult spot to save. And he just caught it. And it didn't even necessarily do the overly dramatic windmill, right? Where it's like he could have just put his glove out and caught it and put the glove back down. But instead, he had to be all dramatic because he's a goalie and put a little extra extra flare on it.

But you're right. Righty catching goalie. Now, here's a quiz for you. How many regulars in the league this year can say that they're ready? catching goalies. Oh, we're going to need the Jeopardy music on this one. There's Vamalka. I've only got three.

There's Vamalka. There's Lain Grin. Yeah. I've only got one more. Who am I missing? He was just in town. Oh, we just had a nine-game home stand, so you're going to have to forget me. Logan Thompson, right?

Oh, L.T, yeah. Yeah, of course, yeah. I believe that's it. Asperov's coming up. But otherwise, I think in terms of like regulars this season, I believe, the only three. And I'm going to pull out my little useless little piece of knowledge that I picked up over the years. Did you know that one of the best in the game, at least historically, maybe up until this year, was supposed to catch with the wrong hand?

Really? Andre Vasselowski. That's the way he should have come up. And yet, despite his father being a professional goalie in Russia growing up, could not get him the proper equipment. So he ended up with a glove on the left hand just because they couldn't get the gear. Now, do you think he's been, I'm very curious to see how the playoffs go for Vasselovsky after last year. rampant storyline about the point shots and how the Leafs were actively targeting him in that sense. I'm very curious to see how this goes here.

Because I was actually watching, I forget who they were playing the other night. But he gave up one that it was like, oh, someone must have gotten a piece or something. And it was like a clear sight point shot. And he just totally whiffed on it and just wet in. And I was like, huh, that's interesting. Because generally he stops all the hard ones. And those are the ones that have for every reason been a bugaboo for him. Well, it's, I mean, it's been an interesting year for him.

Let's put it that way. Like, statistically, that's why I said, you know, a guy who traditionally has been, and I think the NHLPA poll just came out, and he's the goalie that players would least like to face, which tells me that players just answer whatever. I'm surprised it's still not a carry price. Yeah, I was just going to say, like, that's actually a fair point because that's just, it just hasn't been, it's, until it happens in the playoffs, you know, I'm not going to criticize. but man, like to see Andre

Vasilevsky below expected this far into a season accounting for quality and yeah, the team's changed and not the same as the one that won cups, but to see him a couple goals below to see him ranked in the 60s statistically with all that, you know, extra context in terms of shot quality

is frankly shocking. Okay, we're talking about goalie workload and I think that's a proper segue here to talk about Alexander Georgia because they've gotten a lot of questions about him and in particular watching that game. I believe it was last Friday against the Oilers where there were a couple sort of unfortunate bounces along the way there,

but also he had the one where he essentially just tried to catch an easy one with his glove that pop right out, wound up bouncing in off the rebound. And I understand why it's a big topic of discussion, right? Because if you look at this avalanche team, especially after the deadline, when Ranton comes back here, their skater group looks immensely dangerous and much deeper than it's previously been, and they're rightly considered a Stanley Cup favorite, at the same time, everyone keeps coming back to every single bad goal

that Alexandria gives up and wondering about how much of this is an issue, how much of this might be a hindrance. I'm curious for your take on it in terms of the way he's played and kind of how you view the situation, because obviously the season-long numbers, he's sub-900 right now, and say a percentage aren't necessarily good, but I do think there's some interesting contextual factors here to, I guess, bring up or to talk about in terms of what's going on.

You mean in terms of environment? Environment, I got to be honest. I think it's mostly usage early. I don't know if, you know, you think you'd be able to recover from that. They've tried to be more conscious of schedule, I think, of late. You know, like the expected save percentage is slightly above league average. So it's not like, you know, this isn't Jacob Markstrom for three quarters of a season in Calgary being asked to stop bullets in his teeth, at least statistically.

And the one thing that we can't account for is time and space. And so even with all those other factors, a shooter with time and space compared to one with a stick, you know, stick on puck or, you know, somebody closing on him quickly. Like, that's a different, different ball game. And so maybe there's a little more time and space for shooters on Georgie than we've seen elsewhere. This is a guy that I've believed in as a number one, watched his first round performance last year against Seattle Crack and didn't think any of it was on him. I actually really liked the way he played. and the numbers have just kind of fallen off a cliff this year. Like he's well below expected, say percentage ranks 57th in the league out of 89 goalies in that metric.

You know, both Prazvatov, which might surprise some people, but both Prazvatov and Annen have produced an Annen significantly so, higher adjusted save percentages on the season. And so it does become a fair question. and I understand why people are asking it. And I can keep saying that I've watched him enough. I believe when he was in New York that he had the capability of being a number one goal tender in the NHL. And I thought he proved it last year and in the playoffs.

And consistency is tough in this league. And I felt like they played the wheels, even though he'd be the last one to say it and the last one to not say I want the net because he's one of those guys that just wants to be in there all the time. I felt like they played the wheels off him early. And it just feels like there hasn't been ever a full recovery from that.

There's only one goalie in the entire league that's given up more low percentage goals that Alexander Giorgi have this year, and that's Peter Marazek in Chicago. Like, he's at 22 and George's at 21, right? I watch the movement. It's sharp, it's crisp. He can get a little mechanical.

His hands are really out, sort of the side and in front of him, and there's times where that looks almost too mechanical. And again, like, he knows his game, they know his game, but from the outside, you hear me talk about, actually just had a column on this, about how tension is the enemy of goaltending and you can't try harder as a goaltender. I see that tension in his hands at time. It doesn't look relaxed and

fluid and natural, and so when I look at where goals are going in on him, I'm not surprised that those are areas that are getting targeted. You talk about the rebound goal the other night, and so, and yet through it all, I've seen him do it for multiple years and know what he's capable of, and I think if you're the abs, you're just counting on that guy being back when it matters. But it does create an interesting dilemma because Eustace Anonin in a very small sample, and with a very high expected, that's the one thing.

They've insulated him. He's one of the few guys in the league who's expected to say percentage is above 900. Well, I believe he got a couple Blackhawks games out of his sample area. This will do it for you, right? And so, like, you always have to maintain that. You have to keep that in mind. but on a per shot basis adjusted save percentage

there's only two regulars in the entire league that have a higher adjusted save percentage than Eustis Annen right now it's Anthony Stollars and Freddie Anderson who is another exceptional story right now when we talk about rest and the benefit of rest and boy I can't wait to see not to switch but with what Anderson's done

I think if you're the Canucks you're hoping with even less time off to lose the rhythm and timing of the game that you're going to get that from Dempco coming off of this injury as well and into the playoffs because Freddie Anderson is just tearing it up right now. Well, I'm just kind of surprised that they haven't given Annen and more runaway here down the stretch. I know they've been kind of competing for seeing them against a couple of contenders and see what you have.

But certainly, especially after the deadline, they didn't really bring any sort of safety net. They were reportedly poking around Mark Andre Fleury. He decided to want to stay in Minnesota. I was surprised they didn't explore more a guy like Nadeklovich actually because I thought I could have said Brandon Dehame's car. That's very true. So I'm curious that they haven't done that. The reason why I brought this up is because I can see both sides of the argument and I'm also not sure which side I land on. Because the numbers don't look good.

No, they don't. But again, like now watching this Avalanche team, though, I'm a little skeptical that they're as good as the defensive metrics portray them as because I think in particular, like comparing them to that 22 team that won the cup and that's obviously unfair because that team was one of the best teams I can remember watching even when that team would give up what would grade out as a dangerous shot like logistically just in terms of where it was on the ice you would watch it and they were just so good at using their sticks to pressure you and take away that time and space that you mentioned there were no clean shots and so for i am seeing more of franzus and kempa back then it was like even when they would face one from a dangerous area of

the ice the shooter was not really working with you. with much and essentially just a big body could just kind of stand there and take away the most likely places it would go and I think most times that would do the tricks so I wanted to note that I'm glad I noted at them because that's the one thing when I looked at the video like guys were taking those shots that migrate out as mid-danger or whatever but again there was no pressure on them and like the one thing with Georgie is with those hands is there can be at times a tendency like if I was doing a pre-scout I would probably just be shooting over the pads a lot like that's where I would target, even though he holds them pretty low.

But there can be a tendency to sort of push the hands out as opposed to shift the body into shots when he's not on. And certainly that would be exacerbated if you had time and space to really sort of try and route pucks to certain areas and target the hands in that way. The underlying metrics on them, like offensively, it's just all like first, first, first, first. Defensively, five on five, 12th in the league,

expected goals against off high danger chances, the ones that matter the most. Fourth off the rush, which is usually an indicator of playoff success, but 23rd in zone and ninth on the PK. So, you know, in their end and watching a lot of those going through tape on Georgie Fs, and a lot of those sort of pass around the zone stuff, that's where they seem to get pulled apart and picked apart a little bit defensively, and that's where he's been targeted and sort of taken advantage of as well. And a lot of the issues being exacerbated in the sense that when he does make a mistake, it feels like, and this is what you're noting there, they're not doing as good of a job as kind of clearing out and boxing out in front of them.

And I feel like when he does make a mistake in terms of like handling a puck or awkwardly saving it but not necessarily controlling it, it like lands in front of them. And there's just someone there on the other team just like wide open to try to clean it up or deposit the rebound as opposed to, you know, sometimes goalies can make a mistake and not cleanly control something. but their defense in front of them bails them out and it feels like he hasn't gone the benefit of that. Well, there's three areas where he's struggled

statistically and that would definitely speak to one of them and that's broken plays. Like he's underwater when it comes to broken plays and broken plays you know,

goaltender gets credit for making those saves but quite often it goes back to that you know, hey like if you're not clear in it are you at least you know,

making it difficult for the other team to get easy opportunities off of pucks that hit legs and bounce around in front of your goaltender. The other one I mentioned

the clear sighted shots, that's kind of, you know, that's the one that surprised me a little bit from distance, the low percentage stuff. And then the other one is one-timers, which I think that's where we speak to sort of movement around the zone and them getting picked apart with clean tick-tac toes to a one-timer. And he moves powerfully. It looks like he's really explosive. And so I've always felt he was a really quick goaltender.

And yet some of that tick-tack toe has been to the point where by the time the release, is there. He's not quite set in square. Like he's having trouble keeping up. And I don't think that's on him. I think it's on the dynamic nature of some of the offense that's being created in zone. And that would actually kind of match with being 20. You know, we think of them as a great defensive team, but

in zone, 23rd in the National Hockey League, not where Cup contenders typically find themselves. And that would concern me. I think they could handle a round one matchup against the Jets because while that is typically where they can create most of their offense, I think like it's manageable.

That storyline would heat up in a hurry if Hala Bucks stole one in that one too, right? That is true. And I don't feel like George has a guy who would get caught up in a storyline or the questions that would come and it would allow it to negatively affect his performance. But boy, I mean, the narratives in the playoffs heat up like crazy around goal tennis. Yeah. Well, and I was going to say round two against the stars, that's very scary. You actually got to see that game a couple days ago.

I know Randen and it wasn't there, and the avalanche played a bunch of games in a very very short period of time. But the stars were essentially just willingly creating high danger chance after high danger chance from like in tight and the abs really had no recourse for stopping it. The stars are really like they do not rely on rush offense to score. No. Now the other side of it and I do have to like,

I know avalanche fans are quite concerned about this. And I do think there's like a level of what we can portray all the numbers we want. Right. And that's all well and good. And that's like very rational and quantifiable. But especially with the goalie position. there's like a level of unease or like or fear that can be exuded when a goalie's struggling or like visibly they just don't look like they're very in control of the situation and I think that's where a lot of this concern is coming from right and I do think that's fair so regardless of whatever numbers you wanted to portray whatever I didn't want to know that way I think I think it's fair to like because I don't think they didn't win a cup because of Darcy Kemp or Palo Fransu's the year they did right like that team was just absolutely loaded and and were playing remarkably well they just needed an account. occasional save and also no like obvious blunders from them, which can sometimes undo a really

good team. And in this case, I do see that level of concern as a fair one where it's like, I think this team can score a lot of goals. And I'm sure McKinnon's going to be playing 25 to 27 minutes a game and they're going to be very dangerous in all those minutes. But every time the puck comes into your zone and you're like holding on, you're gripping your chair and holding on for dear life being like, please don't give up a bad one here. I can see how that would take its toll. And I think that's a real thing. That's kind of how Colorado played game seven, or the cup clinching game, frankly. It is.

They basically felt like they couldn't give up anything at that point. And they did, like one mid-danger chance, basically, the entire game. Yeah. Okay. Kevin, let's take our break here. When we come back, we'll jump right back into it and keep chatting. You were listening to the Hockey P.D.O.cast streaming on the SportsNard Radio Network. Hey, it's Dan Ritcho.

And Satyar Shah. Join us for Kanox Central, where we will set up the game and break down the latest around the Knox. 4 to 6 p.m. and postgame on Sports Nest. 650 and wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we're back here in the Hockey P.D. O'clock, I'm a Kevin Woodley. Kevin, let's take some listener questions. I've got one here from Dr. Sanchez that says, does the increase prevalence of these shots banked off the head for goalies, often hitting them in seemingly less cushioned areas of the mask,

cause you any concern around goalie head injuries and concussions moving forward? Will we see changes in mask designs to protect the goalie and possibly even make this shot more difficult then as a result? Now, you and I are contractually obligated to talk about these specific shots every single time to come on. I was waiting for this because there was an absolute beauty by was it Marchico. And I went on a huge rant the next day because I posted the clip of it. And a lot of the comments were just appreciating how cool of a play it was. It was pretty hard.

But it also reflected a general, I think, misunderstanding for a lot of fans of like the cause and effect of these plays. Because I saw a lot of, oh, there goes Sorokin again, misplaying it, you know, doing this and that. correctly. And I think that just shows me that you're not really understanding, like, especially if you go back and watch that one, not only how quickly it happened, but the fact that there was a lot of traffic coming downhill in front of them. And so like that entire technique is designed to essentially protect yourself against the most likely outcome. Yeah. And someone in the Discord, I think astutely pointed out, it's very reminiscent of, I think, the baseball debates years ago when teams started like aggressively instituting defensive shifts, right?

you'd see like the entire infield switch all of a sudden to one side of the field. And then occasionally like a broken bat or something would result in the ball going where there was no defender. And then everyone would be like, oh, I hate these shifts. They're ruining the game because if they were just standing there like they should have been normally and they were overthinking this stuff, this would have been an easy ground ball. Completely ignoring the fact that there was probably seven other plays in the meantime that that play design wound up nipping in the bud. And I think that's a similar thing here where when a guy like Murchenko beautifully executes and picks his spot

and hits it from there, it winds up looking bad, but then it ignores all the times where that technique stopped a play where the puck came out in front of the net or went laterally and would have otherwise resulted in a goal that the goalie was better positioned to stop.

Yeah, and I was trying to find and I don't have it off the top of my head. I was looking for a quote I got from Ian Clark a few years ago for an article about this as this pattern was just emerging about the significant, about the significance of the position, the reverse VH, which was exploited there,

and how it's completely, like, what it's done, the first position that connects a goalie to his posts in a way, in a dynamic manner that allows him to sort of have coverage in the middle of the net and also move in and out of it rather seamlessly and protect the short side. And like, so there's a, it was such a significant evolution of the position that we're never putting that horse back in the barn for a reason

because it works. And Roberto Luongo, So his career, like, would have ended a lot sooner. He'll tell you this if he hadn't added that, you know, around 2013, because he used to do what we call a traditional VH one pad up. And I remember the sharks in that playoff. So your lead side pads up against the post and the back pad is down along the goal line. So two things.

One, almost none of you except for that pad along the ice, is actually in the net if the puck gets passed into the middle. You're specifically guarding for a jam play. And the sharks were just basically trying to wrap it and just shove his legs into the net and he was having trouble holding it out and so he added the reverse and he and every time he gave up but we we had this discussion over the years he gave up a goal in reverse on and it happens and the answer would be yeah but like nobody's talking about the 14 saves I made that night that I wouldn't have otherwise so all that said as it happens more and more we do need to perhaps as a

goaltending community and we've talked about this adjust find different ways to play these different angle shots and goalies have they're off the rush they're they've changed the way different types of overlaps and flattened overlaps and one we called you know i mentioned last time the panda um but that reverse vh is always going to be a part of the game the just stand up crowd well that meant it that one would have gone off of soroken shoulder um it doesn't account for the 25 times that gets passed into the middle and now the goalie can't transition to the ice we do see goalies holding their feet more maybe that's a play where he could have but again it's there's just no absolutes there. To go back

to the question, because I do want to make sure we talk about what was asked in Discord, just because I want to say the word discord, as one of the olds, no. I don't think we're worried about it from a safety standpoint. Jeff Merrick asked me this question

recently. I hear no complaints from goaltenders about shots being banked. That's a reality of the butterfly. These guys, Thatcher Temko was on the ice this morning for like an hour getting ready to come back. in the next, I don't know when it'll be Saturday or the week, next week. But he was out there for an hour and he had to take about a five-minute break

because they had to fix his mask because I think it was Dakota Joshua, just flushed him right between the eyes and probably broke or bent the cage, right? Like getting hit in the head is a reality of dropping to your knees. And so goalies aren't complaining. Certainly the mask is designed to take direct blows or glancing blows, not from the side. I know goaltenders, including, I believe, Curtis Sanford, when he was, was playing that ruptured an ear drum because someone shot at him when he was looking the other way in warmups and it hit the earhole and sent enough air in to burst the ear drum. He got to the

bench and there's blood coming out of his ear and like what the heck. Is that a risk? I guess so. Typically those shots from below the goal line like I think even Marchankos was it's a little bit more of a it's a finesse. It's not nobody's you know me no clapping it. It's not a one T. Nobody's like tickling the raft. with a clapper from down there. So I don't think we're necessarily worried about that. I hear more complaints actually, you know, one morning after we see the Sveshnekov lacrossegold.

I hear more complaints from goalies about the risk getting high-sticked on that than I do about the puck being banked off the head. And I don't think mass technologies come a long way and it is still primarily designed for direct impacts off the front or glancing blows off the front. But like we're seeing like CCM now has a mask where the liner is 3D printed.

and can be customized to the goalie's face, and it's got literally hundreds of thousands of these little connections, and it's specifically designed to try and limit rotational impact force transferred to the head. So not so much about the puck, although it protects there as well, but those glancing blows of guys cutting through the crease that lead to most goalie concussions, and so it would also, in theory, protect against some side impact from a puck. So I don't think that's a primary concern of NHL goaltenders. The key NHL goal to enter, because I have had a few Beer League goleys reach out to me and say that they're absolutely furious,

that people in their games are now trying to do this stuff recklessly, and it's leading to incidents. And so we need to. We need to don't try this at home. Disclaimer, I think, before these NHL games. Yeah, I kind of quit Beer League this year because I got tired of being run over and actually another concussion. Because to me, the Beer League proverbs are the idiots that come off the wing and decide they can, that it's okay to come right through the blue and clear out the goaltender and truck them

as long as they have the puck on their stick because they're trying to score. Those are the idiots, and you know who you are number 72. Two times in two years, this goof. Anyways. Who are 72? Justin Fall?

So, anyways, like those are the ones I worry about, but I could see that getting a little frustrating really of guys are trying to bank it off your head, but the truth is, you know, unless you're wearing an old eye, Tech 1200, we used to call it the Widowmaker practically plastic mask out there, you're probably fine. Yeah, I have no issue.

Like I said, I think it's actually the most functional play for the time being, like the Marchenko one. I think the one the same day that Corpusallo gave up to Lundell is a bit more inexcusable to me. I know it was sort of like a perfect shot. But also, if you look at just the way the ice was laid out, I think that did demonstrate some of the flaws with today's goalies where... Yeah, hey, it's fair.

We spent a half hour last time talking about some of the different ways that goalies are going to have to try. try and negate this, some of the ways they already are. And we talked about Talbot and McDavid, right, the last time. Yeah, I watched Talbot working here in Vancouver during a practice day. They stayed here for an extra couple of days, had a practice day, working on dead angle stuff, going with the shin of the pad inside the post like Tukarask used to do

what we call a shin lock or a shin bump on the short side because that allows him, now it's not going to protect his head, but allows him to have more short side high coverage and sort of lean his head into the post but also have more of his body sealed against that post on some of those plays takes a while to get to the point where you can bump off the post if that guy cuts through the middle of the crease

but there's an example of a guy that looks like he's making some adjustments to a specific type of goal that he's given up so I'm not letting goalies off the hook completely I do think there are times there was one with CELOVs here in his first start of the NHL season where it came out from behind a screen but as the guy shot it,

he was tucking into his post to reverse, and it went short side high. And so it's easy to criticize it. I think he was critical of it himself. And yet, I almost want to be able to go back on the ice and recreate, like, okay, now, if I could, I wish I could do this. I wish I could take a piece of string from where the puck was shot, line it straight up to the corner where it went in

because it was a perfect shot, and put Artur's squared up on him, him in a butterfly because it's a screen, so he's probably dropping, and see if it still would have gone over his shoulder. I do think the bank shot's different, but a lot of this dead angle stuff, if guys hit a spot, there are times where I'm like, I don't care if he squares up in a butterfly, unless he's got really good reactive hands, and that's probably more of a blocking range for a shot, that's going over his shoulder, whether he's in a reverse or in an overlap or squared up, whatever. It's hard to say definitively, but there are a lot of times where I wonder that, for

sure. I think goalies should just stand up and avoid being embarrassed. Like they did in the 80s when goal technique was flawless and no bad goals allowed. You know what the funny part is? I wonder how long it would take for guys to realize they have to shoot along the ice because I'll go out to some skates with some pretty high-level skaters and there's a couple old school goalies at the other end of the ice and they're better than me inevitably. Well most are. I mean most goalies are not just they're all better than me out there. But they'll do the stand-up like off dead angles and stuff and like we've got enough young shooters there that they're looking for that spot and these guys are just stand up against the post and guys will have already sort of they'll come off the wing

and they'll see what they think is going to be there so they've already made up their mind and they don't look back up and they'll just basically throw it right into his arm and just sort of shrug it off and it's you can there is an art of deception we've sort of lost that a little bit I remember having this conversation with robin laner he thought it was going to be really important in the game to be able to throw guys different looks I think we've seen it come back to a degree on some of the sharp angle stuff, and I'm curious to see if this spirals forward. We see more guys giving more different,

get back to the days of baiting shooters, Al-a-Marty Breder and even Ryan Miller. I think you are seeing it, because the guys who score, who shoot and score along the ice the most right now, I would say, without just anecdotally, or Austin Matthews and Connery David.

And especially with Matthews, like he's beaten goalies out of his 66 or whatever he scored so far this year, I'd say a good number of them are like seemingly bad ones that kind of look like they're from the 80s where he's actually kind of like sweeping the puck and it's along the ice and it just like quickly goes in while the goalie is clearly prepared to stop like to try to stop something up high

because they know how good his wrist shot is right and so like that's an interesting byproducts. It's like ripping out a new technique right? Like we talked reverse like I remember Connor Hallibuck when he was working to add the reverse to his game reverse VH there were times he would default to it too soon or in the wrong situation because he was repping it out every day in practice

Well so much is about patience on the skates and holding edges now like that's what's wrapped out Like we can't commit early We can't commit early And so as a shooter like for sure You're if you see signs of that guy's You know especially if you see signs That he's trying to hold edges

To the point of tension in his body It's there right You can surprise him with a quick shot down low Okay let's do a couple more questions here Before we get out of here because we've got to wrap up soon. Next time Kevin's on, which backup goalies could step into a bigger role next season?

Now you mentioned Ned there. I think he's certainly an interesting one to follow. Can I throw a little Lorraine Bruss while you? Yeah, so here's the thing. We have to be careful how we define bigger role. Right. Right? Because, you know, to go from a peer backup to a starter,

although Ned's had that role before, so maybe he can. You know, are you talking like 1A, 1B? I'd say going from like 20, I think. It's a different job. I'd say going from 20 to 25 games this season to like 40-ish. Kind of ideally what Charlie Lindgren should have been before this recent stretch, where he's had to play every single game in March and April. Right.

Obviously, so give me some names then. Throw some names at me. I'm thinking here. Well, Ned's won. Boswa, who is a UFA, right? I think it's going to be fascinating. He's got tremendous numbers yet again this season. In Winnipeg, last time that happened, he got, I think, two and a half a year out of Vegas.

So will that happen again? And don't forget, like, it was an injury that limited him in Vegas. If not for him getting hurt, he might have been the goalie record on that Stanley Cup player. He was against Winnipeg. Yeah. I think he played about eight games for them during that run in particular was a starter to begin with, right? Anthony Stollers? Can I interest you in an Anthony Stoller is a guy who we've talked about in the past, who I've liked.

quite a bit. Is that bigger role next season or a bigger role this postseason? Possibly this postseason. You know Anthony Stollers, despite a very limited workload, his sixth in the National Hockey League and goals saved above expected, and I already mentioned where he is in a per shot basis, adjusted save percentage. He has been really, really good for them. Another guy that I'm big on that I think will step into a number one role and was actually there short of an injury this year, so this isn't really a backup to number one.

but Joseph Wall is the real deal in Toronto. Are you just doing a little Kevin Lankinen? Yeah, you know, it's kind of, it hasn't been the year this year that it was in the past for him. So, you know, but I like what I saw. I like things in his game, so I could certainly see him being a guy that team C in a bigger role.

I don't know that I'm going number one there. No, no, certainly not number one, but I think what's incredibly interesting about this off-season in particular is you look at the caliber of names that are theoretically going to be available from like Allmark, Markstrom, potentially even UC Soros, to the number of teams that are in a position where they feel like they need a goalie, in particular, like, contending ones, right? It used to be where there's obviously only so, there's only 60, 64 goalie positions to begin with in the NHL, but all the good ones typically don't need to make moves at a deadline because the reason they're good is because they already have their goalie position figured out particularly in terms of the starter position. We're not at that point now where there's teams like, we'll see what happens with the avalanche, certainly, the devils who are going to be active. Like there's going to be a number of teams, the kings who are going to be potentially in the market to do something big of the position, which has been the case.

David Rich is another name. It's interesting they keep rolling Talbot out there on a per shot basis. Rich has had a better season, right? Yeah. Like, and even if you take away Talbot's dip, the number still slightly favored David Ridge, even if you were to eliminate that sort of right around the All-Star break dip that Cam went through. And Cam's been good, don't get me wrong. But, like, Ridditch has outperformed his environment by a significant margin this year. He's in that conversation, maybe not as high as the Stollers, but not that far below it.

A kid that I think is ready for more opportunity, even though they don't need to put him in the NHL next year. But every time they do, he performs at a level that also has him in that top five on a per shot basis. Jet Greaves with the Columbus Blue Jackets. And, hey, I'm biased there because they spent some time with. He's hard not to like this kid. Or what about a Joel Hofer? If you're St. Louis and you do go into more of a rebuild mode, I don't know which way the wind blows there. Biddington, only goal with more goals saved above expected this year than Connor Halebuck is Jordan Binnigton.

Should probably be a finalist at least, not win the Vett, but be a finalist for the Vesna Trophy. And yet on a per shot basis, Hofer is not that far behind you? Yeah. Right? Like is there, you know, so could you see somebody prius because somebody else believes in, you know, a kid like that coming, you know, and being capable of more. Alex Nadelcovich. Devin Levi has quietly gone to a very high

adjusted say percentage with the Buffalo Sabres. I'm surprised he's not getting more run frankly down the stretch here. We already, Connor Ingram, I think that ship has sailed. That was a guy who, you know, I plugged quite a bit in the past. You know what? I am on the lanket and train.

I'm on that one. I was on it before. Why am I? I don't know why because you know why? Because I just look, guess where because his numbers kind of dipped early this season. Guess who is right next to him on my sort of list, like in terms of adjusted save percentage this year next to Kevin Lincoln, and it feels like this means I have to say he's the next guy. Is it Charlie Linger?

It is Charlie Linger. Oh, there you go. It was written in the stars. There you go. So those are some of the guys. Joey DeCord has taken on a much bigger role in Seattle. What happens there? So not a free agent, but those are guys that I think are capable

of more for sure I'm sure I'm missing a few but you know it's going to be an interesting off season because you're right there's no huge names in terms of free agents like there's no but the trade market is going to be popular trademark it's going to be interesting but especially

if teams look at these names and say why am I going to go spend on this guy when I think I might have the next charter Lindgren here I guess the reason would be because there's a mite attached and we don't general managers tend not to like uncertainty, but you never know.

That is true. All right, I wanted to do a question about defensive environments, but I feel like this is going to be like a 40-minute conversation, so I will just save it. We could try, try me, see if I can go fast. No, no, we have a minute left. We got to sign out here. I don't even want to open this candleworms.

I think it's incredibly interesting, though, and I have a lot of, because I was watching, I was at that Canucks Golden Knights game. You were there as well in the press box, and I look up after the game, and the Canucks generated something like 3.5 expected goals or something for the game, right? And I thought that was really high.

They outplayed the Golden Knights, certainly, but I didn't think they were that threatening offensively. And then I went back and looked at it, and there were at least three or four plays where I thought Logan Thompson kind of opened the door with a rebound or Pocky probably should have corralled better. And then the Carter Garland goal, there were a few others where... Did the Garland Gold, the second Garland Gold get to him?

I watched a ton of replays, and I thought, oh, it came out of his glove. I think actually his defense would have knocked it down right. I think he was about to catch it clean. The first one, right? The first one kind of went under his arm and then it wound up being tapped in. And then it's interesting because the follow-up rebound gets created as such a high expected goal output, right? And a goalie that's at top of their game or playing really well or just better.

Do not dismiss how good the Vancouver Canucks are at traffic. They certainly are. But if you stop that initial shot, you never get credit. for the expected goals after that, right? And in some ways, almost being really good in terms of just cleanly stopping the first shot, does you a disservice in terms of stuff like expected goals again, or goals save well I've expected and stuff like that.

And so it's an incredibly interesting conversation. We'll save that. I got the Canucks at 3.29 in that game, and the Vegas at 2.38, I think the one that's going to surprise you, the Eichl shot on the power play that goes through the legs of, I believe it was the door off as the defenseman, Yeah.

Off the rush is a high danger chance. And everyone was groaning at it. All right, Kevin, this is a blast. Thank you for coming in. I know you're a busy guy. Looking forward to the next time we chat because we'll be talking playoff hockey. Everyone go follow.

Kevin is in goal. Pop into the Discord. Anyway, link is in the show notes. Kevin might make an appearance or might not there. We'll see. I'm working on it. We'll work on it.

This is a blast. Thank you for sending in the questions for us. Thank you for listening. We'll be back soon with plenty more of the Hockeypedioccast. As always streaming on the SportsNet Radio Network. Thank you.