The Hockey PDOcast - Connor Bedard’s strengths and weaknesses, and underrated defenders

Episode Date: March 31, 2023

Harman Dayal joins Dimitri to talk about Connor Bedard’s game tape this season, and what will smoothly translate versus what he’ll have to work on next year in the NHL. Then they discuss what they’re looking for from defensemen, and who they think are the most underrated players at the position right now.This podcast is produced by Dominic Sramaty.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the Hockey PEDEOCast. My name is Dmitra Filippovich and joining me in studio on this Friday closing up a week in style. It's my good buddy, Harmon Dyle, what's going on then? I'm pretty good. How are you? I'm good. You've been picking up the slack for that slacker Thomas Drands not really doing anything over at the athletics.

So you've been covering them and writing up a storm. And we're going to talk about a few of the recent. bangers that you put out this week. So that's what we're going to kind of recap them. I'm going to give you my thoughts on it. We're going to extrapolate it and really get into good conversations. Let's start with the Conradard piece because I thought it was really fascinating. And we were talking before we went on the air, you wanted to approach it from the lens of

providing some sort of added context or nuance and in preparation for what next season is going to look like beyond this guy's really good. He's going to score goals. Everyone likes Conner Bardard, right? Because that, I mean, it's so hard to nitpick his game at this point just because he's been talked about for so long now. The stats speak for themselves, the highlights speak for themselves. Everyone is so excited to see him at the NHL level that it's easy to get caught up in that. But we know that there's going to be some sort of challenges that he's going to encounter

once he steps into the NHL next year, especially if he's playing for a team like, let's say, the Blackhawks or something that has so much work to do to build a roster around him. Absolutely. The approach I wanted to take was almost looking at it as if you have this 5 foot 10 forward who doesn't blow by defenders in a McDavid or McKinnon type way. So how is he the most high prospect since Connor McDavid? In terms of his skill set and how does that apply to an NHL environment, especially beyond his shot, right? Because I think that's the one area.

That's going to play it right away. That's going to play right away. We know how special it is. But an elite shot on its own obviously isn't enough for him to. to become the rarefied prospect that he is. And so that was the lens through which I kind of tried to dissect a lot of game tape. And right off the bat, you realize how many tools he has in his arsenal offensively beyond just a shot. So first of all, he's got elite hands, which allow him to make really impressive plays in high traffic.

It's crazy. Sometimes you'll see him, like some guys are constantly. comfortable making, like some highing players are comfortable making plays in high traffic. Butard seems to love it. He seems to seek it out, right? Exactly. He seems to have no, he never feels pressure, even when there are guys on him, which is such a rare skill to see in a player where I've never seen him make a rushed decision with the puck. Yeah.

Never. Well, pressure usually for most mere mortals speeds you up, right? because it gives you that added sense of, okay, I have to do something now. Someone's coming at me. I'm going to lose the puck, right? And so you wind up, that's how you wind up making mistakes or you wind up kind of forcing plays. And for players of that caliber, and I'm putting him already at that, even though he's yet to

play a single game against NHL competition, it almost seems to like slow down for him. He instead goes the other way and slows it down, uses the opponent's speed coming at him to his advantage and allows himself to then kind of wait for other windows to open up. Absolutely. So just even when he makes mistakes, the best way I can put it, is it seems deliberate. Like the play he was trying to make was deliberate. It wasn't as if the opposition forced him into a play that he didn't. He lost on his own terms.

He lost on his own terms. Which right off the bat, I think is special. And again, I think part of that is the elite puck skills. The other side of it is the hockey sets, which in talking to sort of teams around the league, they said that stands out to them just as much as a shot in terms of how he can see what's in front of him, see how the opposition is, like what defensive posture they're in, where his teammates are for support,

and then either A, pick apart the smallest window of opportunity or B, if there is no window of opportunity to manipulate defenders and create that space, which leads to the next point, which is how deceptive he is. He's able to sort of use the threat of a shot to pull off Deeks. He'll fake it to create space for himself.

He'll fake it to create space and unlock his playmaking ability. And I think when you combine a lot of those factors, he's the sort of player where as a defenseman when he's coming down off the rush, you just can't anticipate what he's going to do next. Yeah. I have two quick thoughts on that.

One, I'd like to apologize to everyone listening for putting the idea of Conradar and the Blackhawks into the universe. I'm definitely not trying to manifest that in any way. In fact, the exact opposite. It's just that they currently, as things stand, have the best odds. And also when I was trying to think of teams with the most work to do in terms of, like, adding NHL players, it would be them at this point. Right. If he went to as bad as the Ducks have been or the Blue Jacks as miserable as their season's been, there's reason to believe that adding Conradar to that group

but all of a sudden allow them to take a significant step up because they actually do have already talent in place. The Blackhawks are like literally starting from square one with him, right? The second was you pointed out that he's 5'10. Not that this matters at all. Even if he feels like 5, 6, I'd be like, whatever, fine, the skills speak for themselves. I think that 510's a bit generous.

Oh, yeah. That actually blew me away. I think I brought this up. I did a pod with Cam Robinson the day after the top prospect showcasing. He's a tip to 510. Well, he's like, oh, you know, like, I was six rounds, some days. Yeah.

I mean, he was standing right beside Zach Benson, who I think Zach Benson's also now listed at 510, and I wonder there's a shenanigans because last time I checked it was like 5, 8, 5, 9. They were like the exact same size next to each other. And so it's weird though. Zach Benson's been now upgraded to 510, but he's still like 158 or something, pounds, whereas Connor, Conrad's like a hefty 185.

They were like the exact same size. But that's regardless. That's irrelevant to this point. The offensive skill set speaks for itself, right? I mean, his ability to leverage that shot, not just beating goalies cleanly with all that deception, but then creating other windows to either playmake for others or get his own shot down the road further in the sequence is already elite.

You made up a great point in that piece, in terms of pointing out how much of his game, despite the fact that he doesn't have that explosiveness of other top skaters in the NHL, comes off of these downhill sequences where he's attacking off the rush. That's one area where I'm very curious to see how that transit is in the NHL because if he, and you pointed this out,

if he's going to play center, and he's going to play like a conventional NHL center, which is dropping really low in coverage, sort of providing support for your defenseman on the breakout, he's not going to be able to get away with a lot of the highlight real goals he's so far in the WHL this season, which is somehow he's like at the top of the offensive zone despite being the center and then just gets a pass and he has one guy to beat and then he's gone. A lot of times he's going to have a lot more work to do

to get to that position in the NHL level and without, and he can certainly improve his skating, right? Like I'm sure his first step is going to become quicker. He starts working with NHL coaches and puts in the work and starts, you know, training with all these other fellow stars. But at this point, he does have a lot of work to do in that regard because those opportunities to get out in transition are not going to be as easy to come by if he actually starts playing an NHL level game. Yeah, that's the biggest question mark that I sort of had around his game and how it'll translate in the short term is he doesn't defend like a center at all. In the WHL, in fact, he's a lot, he really just defends like a winger. Yeah. A lot of times on the back check, unless there's an immediate.

threat off the rush that he needs to stop. A lot of times he'll be floating on the back check, sort of saving his energy. He might initially come deep in the zone when he's coming back and sort of start there, but then he'll inevitably sort of loop back and end up high as sort of, in this sort of spot you'd expect a winger to be covering the point.

And it's almost like he's waiting for the opposition to make a mistake so he can create some vast break offense. Yeah. Right? So that's where it's just not going to work that way in the NHL where either, first of all, NHL players aren't going to make as many mistakes and give as many counterattack opportunities, but even beyond that, he'll either, if he wants to stick at center, need to learn how to defend down low, and that all of a sudden will create a situation

where he won't be able to sort of turnover happens for the other team and somebody's able to feed him a pass. And like you said, he only has like one guy to beat and he's got a breakaway or something. It's either that or he has to, or a team has to start him at wing. And, and that's where initially, I remember people talking about sort of in the back of their mind going, will he stick at center? Is there a shot he ends up at wing? And I remember at first going, oh, like, that's preposterous. Like centers are way more valuable. He's a natural center. Why would you not develop him as a center? And I still believe a team absolutely should develop him as a center. I think he's capable of that. But,

I can at least see why that's been a thought for some people, because the way that he creates rush offense is kind of contingent on hanging out high in the offensive zone lurking and sort of waiting to blow the zone and be the first guy back on the counter attack. Yeah, no, that's a really interesting point. I think for a lot of teams that he would conceivably land on right out of the gate, it's not that big of a deal. Like you can get away with letting him sort of learn the role.

hopes, et cetera, and potentially having the poor underlying numbers, I don't think that's going to ruin his career by any means. I think it's totally fine. He's not like he's going to, what I'm trying to say is, I don't think it's going to be a matter of him stepping in and a team being like, all right, we're a play off team from day one. And so he has to play an elite two-way game. Like, I think that'll be fine. I'd much rather him continue to like show his offensive game and that the rest will come with time. But that is an interesting point you make in terms of whether, at least out of the gate, he's going to start off on the wing. You know, the lack of explosion is one thing. I think sometimes when you say stuff like floating, people get like very concerned because a lot of times our ideas of like highly

skilled players come with, oh, but they don't, you know, they're just, they're basically cheating for offense or they're doing that. And I think you do sometimes see that on tape. The thing that would give me confidence that it's not going to be a concern from moving forward in the NHL level is he seems to by all accounts when you watch him play, he seems to be highly competitive. And also he has like a legitimate edge and mean streak to him where he like seeks out of his way to engage in battles. So it's not a matter of him not wanting to be involved in physical contact as an undersized guy. It's actually the exact opposite. Sometimes he goes out of his way and he like picks fights with bigger players. And so that makes me think that once he comes to an NHL and

especially be playing a competitive environment on a good team, like that'll come, like that defensive effort. Now, if that comes at a sacrifice of some rush offense, that's an entirely different conversation in terms of that tradeoff and whether that's a net positive. But for me, I, that wouldn't like concern me at all. Not that, not that any of this conversation is like, oh, should he not go number one? Because that's obviously been like very decided. But we're talking about like expectations for what it's going to look like next year and then the first couple years of his NHL career. Absolutely. That's why I was very careful in the article where I didn't want to use words like float or lazy because I'm like that's that's not the way I'm trying to

trying to paint this because it's like somebody in the comments jokes he's they were like this is the most eloquent way of say like because I talked about it as like conserving energy for offense yeah they're like it's the most eloquent nice way to describe a player who just like isn't putting defensive effort in but you can also understand it where a hypercompetitive athlete like Bedard, who's driven to win. For him at the WHL level, for the Regina Pats, it's better if he plays that way. In terms of winning games,

like I wouldn't want him necessarily, I would ask his line mates, I'd be like, okay, Badard can do everything possible. As wingers, just support him a little bit more defensively. Be willing to rotate down low because the benefits we're getting, in terms of rush offense,

outweigh the work that other guy, other guys might have to do to sort of pick up the slack, right? Yeah. Of course, and that's where the NHL game is going to change. And because Bedard is so driven, because he's so highly competitive, because he's so smart, I have zero doubt that as soon as an NHL development staff tells him to, tells me the details and starts teaching him the ropes,

that he'll eventually become a good defensive player. He's also going to start, like the quality of competition is going to increase, but the quality of teammates around him also increase. And so that gives me confidence that he won't necessarily have to take the puck from his own zone and carry it all the way up by beat two defenders, get into the offensive zone, and then do everything from that point forward too, right? Like, we've seen plenty of players that just did a full deep dive on a guy like Clayton Keller, for example, who I think very similarly doesn't necessarily have that conventional

game-breaking speed from like point A to point B, but has a certain level of like deceptiveness in his skating. that's allowed him to as soon as he crosses center ice, he becomes one of the most dangerous players in the league. And that's a very reasonable roadmap for Connor Bernard to have, even if his skating doesn't necessarily ever reach McDavid McKinnon Heights, which it probably won't at this point. The teammate aspect is a great point because there were also points,

especially when I started watching the tape, and I didn't really have a frame of reference for this. I was like, oh my God, this is, what I'm seeing in terms of some of his teammates is awful. A lot of times I was like, just get him the puck. Just get Vard the puck. Stop turning it over. Stop losing all these battles.

Please make a defensive stop. Give your best player the puck. Yeah. Give him an opportunity to cook. And everyone else knows that it's like everything else is almost like a like a preamble to Conrad getting the puck, right? And so it's like everyone knows it. Whereas at the NHL, there's going to be an element of that,

but also it's going to be impossible for, everyone to just be waiting for him to do something because that's not how the NHL game works, right? There's other good players you have to account for. Like, even with McDavid, it's like the other team's not able to just follow him around the ice the entire time because there's other threats on the ice to kind of have in the back of your mind. Yeah, so that's going to be a really interesting aspect. And I think the power play right off the bat is where he's going to be most deadly. Yeah. Like right away, he also has an innate understanding of how to move off the puck to change up a stagnant power play. Like there are sometimes the word.

he's hanging out on, hanging out by the left circle, he'll see a penalty killer is kind of shadowing him high. And instead of trying to just blast a shot from pretty far out when a defender's right on him, he'll sort of maybe like overlap around to the other side and then attack downhill with speed kind of like McDavid does. And that's where again, he'll like use his deceptiveness to like fake a shot, jab step and create a lane for himself and then just like wire a wicked shot, which is pretty special to see, especially because he also still has that vision to where he can make a no look past too, where you'll see him coming downhill, makes the move, you think he's going to shoot, and then he just slides the puck across, and you're like, man,

that that's pretty amazing. Yeah, you're going to be able to, from day one, run an effective power play through him off that half wall. The other thing for me is, like, I've been thinking a lot about this. when we when I first started kind of in in getting my feet wet with hockey analytics and really doing this for a living there was a period of time where like players who um were five on five beasts but weren't scoring were the most like underrated players because everyone was just purely looking at like very generic surface level stats of like goals and points and hits and just like yeah box score stats right and so um players who did all the dirty work in terms of like

starting a high percentage of their shifts in the defensive zone, winning those battles, flipping the ice, and then setting up their top line teammates were the most underrated players. Now we've almost, those players are still underrated in some circles, but players who can consistently create high danger scoring opportunities and turn shots into goals for both themselves and their teammates are almost becoming underrated just because there's so few of those guys who can actually reliably and consistently be expected to do so, right? And so he's clearly going to be that right out of the gate. So I don't want to say that Connor Boudard is going to be underrated,

but that's like a skill set that is so, so valuable in today's game. The other thing is sometimes Polaro is having a late shot, but that player will need to play with an effective playmaker. He'll need to be set up for it. And that's where Badard can just independently create and get himself into the inside. He barely, like, that's my biggest takeaway was just how little space he needs. because again, with a player by his game breaking speed,

it's like their special trait is that they can get behind you that they can sort of slice through your defense. Don't get me wrong, but Dart can do that as well in terms of with this deking and the dangles that he can pull off. But for me, what's special is just,

a defender will think that they're playing a tight gap on him and he'll just somehow create magic out of thin air. And that's, again, speaks to what's special about the shot is not just the velocity, the accuracy, the ability to manipulate and change the release point, but it's how rare of an element or quality it is that he can sort of like unleash it at any point and like see he'll seemingly generate full power despite like also having a lightning quick release.

So it's it's like this thing where for a lot of players when they want to shoot the puck it um they need a little bit of space to sort of set up the shooting lane they need a little bit of that extra fraction of a second to pull it back to generate a lot of power whereas badard it's like he could at any point just like and it's just like it has the same level of velocity and accuracy that a shot that might that might take a lot longer to sort of execute the motion of uh would have so that's That's what makes it incredibly difficult when you then, again, combine it with the elite stick handling, with the way that he sees the ice, the deception, the creativity. It's, man, he's such a unique archetype where it's like, imagine giving Patrick Kane or Mitch Marner an elite, elite shot. Yeah.

That's probably going to be top five, at least top 10 in the NHL tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah, it's really rare to right out of the gate have that type of a dual threat, right? where sometimes we say like a guy's a dual threat but really he does one thing really well and occasionally can beat you with the other like him it really will be a picker poison situation right which is so cool he's gonna be he's gonna be a content goldmine oh yeah as soon as he comes in he's gonna become other than macdavid probably the most like giffable player in the league because he's just gonna be doing so many cool things next year i can't

wait i hope he goes to the right market yeah not the not blacklocks right yeah um i had a listener send in a question and I don't think either of us have given this enough thought to like scientifically answer it. But as a thought exercise, it is interesting. They asked, would you trade Connor Bedard for Connor McDavid? And of course, you would, right? You would take the sure thing in McDavid. And I think also as high as we are on Bedard, I think it is a slightly, not slightly different caliber of prospect,

but just based on how much McDavid has delivered on all the hype, you don't want to take that kind of for granted as a certainty. But in terms of like how valuable he is an asset, the second wins the draft lottery on May 8th or something. Yeah. Right. Early May. The second whatever team wins the lottery and gets the first overall pick,

that holding that asset becomes what the most like the 15th or 20th most valuable asset in the league? Is that even understarring it? Yeah, maybe. because you're getting not only three ELC years and then seven cost-controlled years, which even if he decides to after his ELC, like, leverage you in a short-term deal, like, it's still going to be. Yeah.

He's going to provide more value than dollars you have to pay him, right? So, I don't know. It's probably, like, you'll be shocking to see what level of established star player you would be comfortably willing to trade for a player that has yet to play a single game. but that's how valuable a player with that much runway to improve making less than a million dollars is. For sure. And I also agree with you in the sense that I don't think that he'll reach McDavid's level of caliber as a player. And so, yeah, and that hypothetical thought exercise, like, if you offer Connor McDade, like, you're going to take that. Maybe unless your team like the Blackhawks where you were like, we're so far away.

Although even then it's like you had McDavid, I don't think it would take too long with the caps face that they have. So even for them, I think you'd probably take the sure thing. He's 27 halfway through next year and he has three years left at $12.5 million. But he is also the best hockey player I've ever watched. Yeah. McDavid, as a sure bet, would be too much to, too hard to pass up. Yeah. But even though he is a lot older and is already sort of expensive.

Pretty much any player that's like over 25 and being paid. near their full capacity is less valuable than what Baderd could provide, especially to a rebuilding team. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, uh, it's quite a, quite a thing to think about. Any other Baderr thoughts here before we go to break? I know you, you broke down a ton of video on him, so you've already imparted a lot of good wisdom on him.

No, I, I think that's about it. Okay, uh, let's take our break here. And then when we come back, uh, we're going to talk about a totally different subject, but yet an equally fun one, in my opinion. Uh, you're listening to my own. our HockeyPedio guest streaming on the Sportsnet Radio network. Big guests and bigger opinions on everything happening in Leifsland. Real Gipper and Born.

Be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we're back here in the Hockeypedio cast with Harmon Dile. We talked about Badaard in the first half. Now I want to talk about another article that you wrote up recently. this week, the most underrated defensemen in the league. Now, you listed top 10 in no particular order. I have a couple other additions. I agreed with a lot of your submissions. I have a few others that I'd like to add to the list. But before we get into the specifics of the actual players, I thought it'd be more interesting to start this conversation off with kind of a look at what criteria we're

looking for in terms of what we value in defensemen in today's game. You and I have had a lot of conversations on the show about how much the position has evolved, how much the demands and responsibilities of it have changed for top defenders. But let's let's key in on that on the specifics of that. Like what are we looking for? What type of defensemen do you prefer ideally? What, what's a, if you have like a certain checklist or criteria of things that they ideally need to do for you to really value them, give me, give me all that stuff. Yeah. So right off the bat, I think there are obviously a lot of different ways you can impact the game as a defense. I don't think there's a black and white sort of cut and dry look at these three skill sets and you're a great defenseman.

That said, in terms of what I value, I think it starts a lot of times with your transition value, both with the puck and without the puck. And what I mean is what value can you have on zone exits and helping create an environment where you can feed the forwards cleanly and help them really cook offensively so that you spend, like, less time defending in your own end and you can help that sort of help those forward lines get up the ice, create offense themselves. And then in transition defense, how much you're essentially able to stop the opposition from doing the same in terms of defending the rush, preventing clean entries, especially because today's game is so speed based that if you're a defenseman that has the rare ability to be able to play a really tight gap, has a long reach, which a lot of the players will highlight in this list, or at least some of them, have that

combination of they have size and skating ability, which makes them uniquely suited to handling some of the best players in the league off the rush. So I think those are two foundational elements of, if you're just good at those two things, that right off the bat is a heck of a foundation to build off, which I think to be effective in those areas, you need to be a good skater, I think. Or at least that's one of the most, that's one of the leading ways you can make an impact in that area. And then beyond that, I don't know if we were more looking for qualitative elements,

but a smart defenseman. I'm somebody who really values players who are in the right positions, understand how to support the puck. That's, I think, the starting point for how it would be this. Well, it's interesting because a lot of, not to over generalize but a bunch of the defensemen that I seem to find myself gravitating towards when I think of like really good especially defensive defensemen aren't necessarily the the smoothest skaters from like a conventional description like it's not like they're not

just like effortlessly gliding up the ice in fact sometimes they have like very choppy skating strides but their ability to um I think I think that's where sort of that hockey IQ or smarts element comes in from a positioning perspective where you're able to maintain a certain space and know what you can get away with while still utilizing your reach in a way to to kind of bolster that, right? Like on your list of most underrated defensemen, my one pushback was that you didn't include Devon Taves because you said that he'd reached that, that Sasha Barkov tier of guy who's not actually underrated anymore even though he's used as our perception of what underrated is, especially on like on TV broadcasts.

I think he still is underrated. Really? Because I think there's an element of, he plays with Kyle McCar, so he's kind of like in his shadow of people being like, oh, well, of course he's succeeding, playing next to Kyle McCar. And also on a team that's been as sort of deep and star-studded as the avalanche have. I think he kind of blends in in the collective there a little bit. You know, certainly it's very subjective because depending on who you ask,

Like, I clearly don't think, uh, I value him enough to think that he's a top defenseman, but I'm sure that if you took a wide sampling, there's going to be people who are like still skeptical that he purely stands out on his own. The reason why I do think he has underrated though is because like, I've, I had this season a top four defensemen on a playoff team reach out to me and be like, I want to watch, I want to get into Devon Tave's tape. to figure out why he's being so good after I've been posting clips of him because I want to do that stuff.

And so when you get that like pure respect of people like like real recognizing real, I think for me like I don't think from a general fans perception that doesn't watch him every single day, I don't think he's held in that type of his team. So for me, I don't know that's like purely nitpicking, but I just think so highly of him that I do think he is a bit underrated stuff. That could be fair. I mean, I more so looked at it as I think the abs is. cup run shined a spotlight on his impact in that way. And when I remember, I think most,

and, you know, maybe Twitter polls on hockey Twitter on the best representation, but anytime I've sort of seen lists of top 20 defensemen, I've consistently seen fans and not just Colorado ones pushing for Taves as the top 20 defensemen in the league. So in that perspective, I was like, okay, I think most I think most people have clued in. So that was the, that was the approach that I sort of took was, was I think a lot of people have already clued into the fact that

he, he is like a top 10, 15, 20 defenseman wherever exactly you want to slot him in the league. Yeah, that's fair. I just think he checks so many boxes of like what I'm looking for. And I think there's also something not to diminish his greatness because there's a reason why he's like unique and so successful. But it is also,

you can watch him, and this is what I think makes it relatable, you can watch him and pick up stuff that he does and tendencies that you can apply to your own game as a high-level defender. Whereas I think for most people, you're not going to watch Kill McCar tape and be like, I'm just going to do that. Yeah, I'm going to skate like that.

Yeah, oh, you know what, I'm just going to take the puck from one end and the next to other, beat three people and score. Like, that's not... I mean, I would want to. Yeah, but maybe if you're playing a video game and not a real life. But for Taves, it's like picking a guy up early and surfing with him or, like, Like little stuff that he does that anyone that's playing in the NHO can start to apply more to their game and be more successful.

So that's just kind of why I wanted to shout him out. Things I'm looking for, I don't want a defenseman who shoots the fuck. Yes. We've talked tirelessly, but it's worth pointing out it's just such an inefficient form of offense. And if that's your primary source of driving offense for your team, that's not good enough for me. very few guys that can get away with being high volume shooters and it not being a suboptimal approach considering what other players they probably have on their team. I'd much rather than be a distributor or just showing kind of poised and patience with the puck to get it to them.

So I think you agree with that, right? 100%. There's no doubt. Don't take penalties. Especially for a lot of these guys that are in this conversation, they're going to be playing against other teams' best players. They're going to be in tough environments. That is a legitimate skill. It once used to be thought of as a mark that you were soft. that you weren't doing all the physical stuff that you need to be a shutdown defender. In today's game, being a Jacob Slave and Roger Sturge in that regard is so much more valuable,

staying out of the box, being able to actually stay on the ice and not hurt your team. Defending the rush, using gap control and stickwork. Now, what's interesting to me is a lot of the guys that have the, use the long sticks to kind of, you know, spam poke checks and knock pucks away, I think there's, it's, it seems great in practice to be like, why should, if every defensive defender should just use an exceptionally long stick to do that. But then you get yourself into trouble of like when you go up against elite puck carriers, they can get inside of that stick and then make you pay. But also I imagine there would probably be a negative tradeoff with your ability to go back or retrieve the puck and then break it out. If you're using a comically oversized stick, right?

It's got its own risks and awards. But I do find myself, like, at the combine and every draft cycle, I'd be interested in that as a measurable much more than height for a defenseman. And that's something that isn't necessarily as publicly valued. Yeah, like wingspan. In the NBA, it's like one of the most important, especially for defenders, you're like, all right, what's this guy's wingspan in terms of like how he can translate as defensive acumen?

Yeah, that's a really good point. NHL, it's rarely a thing that is valued in terms of what young players have in terms of their physical skill set. Yeah, that's a really good point because usually I think a lot of us just equate height and assume it roughly correlates with wing span, which it probably does. But it's not going to be an exact or precise way of measuring that reach, which I think is like when I look at, for example, Matia Samuelson, who's one of the players on the list, that's what makes him special. This guy's reach is like ungodly. And especially when you pair it with the fact that he can move pretty well. for a size, it's like he'll just casually swat away a Brayden point rush. And I'm like,

this is, this is so cool and so fun to watch defensively. Yeah, no, I love that. Um, so I think, do you think the reason we focus, I mean, so much of the game is now predicated off a brush attack that you have to be able to defend in space like that? Do you agree that part of it is also that there's so few defenders in the league that consistently have, um, in zone defense as like their trademark to success. Yeah. Like it feels like maybe it's because it's less prevalent, especially in the regular season game,

but also it feels like that's much more fleeting or unreliable or volatile in terms of like year to year, which is whereas if you can handle speed coming at you and you can poke checkpucks away and handle yourself there, even if you make the occasional slip up in defensive zone coverage, you're still going to be such a net positive. Whereas if you're getting burnt by speed, no matter how good you are at sticking with your man,

around the net, that's not necessarily as valuable or as transferable from game to game in season to season? Well, I think the important distinction is that usually when a team is coming at you off the rush, it's because there's been a change in possession. And because there's been a change in possession, there's a good chance that your forwards aren't actually in a position to sort of clog the middle or that you have a lot of numbers back to give you defensive structure. So defensively, you're more vulnerable and that's where it's such an asset to have a player, a defenseman who can effectively sort of funnel at puck hairy to the outside, break up a play, or just ensure that there isn't a huge breakdown there because during in zone play, it's like you've got

all five guys back and every team is usually pretty cognizant about trying to take the middle away and they're fine keeping you to the perimeter. And so as an offensive team off the cycle, in zone, it's a lot harder to create that breakdown anyway, which I think is a big reason is like so much of our, or so much of offense is created off the rush or within close proximity to, or shortly after an offense's own entry, just because that's the time when a defense is still scrambling to get in the right position and have some semblance of structure.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Our general idea of like from in zone settings where teams are to try to be from an attack is much more crystallized right now. So from like a team defense perspective, it's like most teams are generally running a very similar like zone setup. Yeah. It's like, all right, just stand here, you know, contest shots from here, try to force them to these locations and we'll be happy with it. And that's much more easier to execute. Whereas I think for us as analysts

when you're watching a game, when you're defending the rush, it's like you're on an island kind of sometimes. Yeah. So one-on-one and that's also much easier for us to clue in on like who's good at it and who's bad at it because you're going to be exposed if you're not. And if you are consistently good at it, it's going to show up in these, like, very obvious kind of highlight real defensive plays. The other aspect to that I know I've brought up, brought up before is that it's also harder to, you think about what it sometimes takes to break up a play downlaw off the cycle, for example, or in front of the net, or in any type of in-zone setting. As a defenseman, you have less of those tools now because of how much stricter the rulebook is

being called where I mean you can't cross-check guys is nearly as much as you could do in front than that you have to be a lot more careful about the the stick on a puck carrier's hands you like I see a lot of instances where there's a hit or a check made to dislodge a player off the puck down low and he gets called for a penalty and I'm like that's a little bit soft I don't mind it because I'm like generally I like the fact that we're taking some of the obstruction yeah out of the game that I think was obviously, you know, in the Depakke era, for example, was way too prevalent. But sometimes it goes, leans a little bit too far in the other direction where it's like there are sometimes a lot of soft calls in those settings. And so you can't

really play that, it's much harder to play that assertive defensive style defending the cycle to where you are able to create those changes in possession. And I think a lot of times it's just let's, let's contain, let's keep into the outside until they, shoot and then that's our opportunity to recover the puck and and break out or clear the clear it out of the zone. Oh, trust me. When you talk when you, I'm sure you know this, when you talk to NHL defenders, they'll, they will quickly tell you, especially off the record, how upset they are at what they can

and can't get away with in today's game compared to the past, right? And I certainly understand the frustration sometimes, especially because it's like, it's such a sliding scale, it seems even from a game to game basis where like no one really knows what even, I mean, no one knows what goaltender interference. but no one knows what what constitutes holding or are like depending on cross check the setting. Oh, yeah. Anyways. Okay, let's get into the list then.

Do you want to, how do you want to run through this? Do you want to go through some of the names on it and kind of talk about either why you felt like you wanted to put them on there or potentially kind of what put them over the top or maybe guys that you felt like you wanted to include, but for whatever reason, didn't? I mean, you can go anyway. And I can give you some of the names that I thought. Yeah. So, I mean, I'll just go with the name that surprised me, just because I think with a lot of the names on the list, especially for listeners who follow you,

you've probably raved the butt a lot of these guys as well. A lot of people might look at the list and be like, well, to us, he's actually not under a... Yeah, oh, we've been hanging on everyone here, of course. But Yuselot and Aki on the coyotes was a big surprise to me, right? He's a, he's a player that, because of injuries, for a long time, he seemed to stall his development. He had, after tearing his ACL, looked really rough.

in coming back to Calgary. He was on waivers. And then it's been a steady sort of progression for him where he first started as just a sort of like playing third pair of minutes type thing, was fine in that role. And then obviously when Chickren was held out, and after that, you of course, also had Gossus Bear traded.

Balamacki's kind of stepped into being the de facto number one. And I mean, I think I haven't checked as of the last couple of games he's played, but when I had last checked, he had 19 points in his last 25 games, he was playing in all situations, uh, team high 2239 in his last 25 games. And in those minutes at five on five, it wasn't just thinking he was putting up points, right?

Because like, if you're playing power play, all these situations, it's like you might rack up points, but he was also winning the sort of shot attempts and expected goals battles. And he was number, and he was leading defense, uh, coyote's defenders in that respect, despite playing the most difficult minutes.

which to me that's where I was like, okay, and I think he had like a plus six cold differential at five and five during that stretch as well. So you have a defenseman who went from being waived and looking like his NHL career might be on the rocks to now a spot where on the season, I think he had 31 points. Last I checked,

and he's been, he's been admirably holding his own in a number one defense position that he probably isn't well suited for. Yeah. Well, there's a couple of things there, I think, especially for young defenders, like, injuries that can affect their mobility, especially like at a key developmental point, are very risky. I'm thinking of a guy like Oli Ull Levy. Yeah. It comes to mind where sometimes it can, you know, just, it goes too far and there's no coming back from it.

And I think that was part of the concern. I think also the log jam at the position in category certainly played in it and having Dural Sutter as a coach who, you know, isn't necessarily the most. open to utilizing young players and big roles played into it. But yeah, this is exactly what a team like Arizona should be doing, right? It's like you have open roster spots and you're just like looking for young talent where you're even getting get it. And if you can find it on the cheap, whether it's a contributor for you down the road or whether you can turn around and spin it into other future assets, this is like a smart

piece of business by them. So it's cool to see him at the very least like carving out a legitimate NHL career for himself because a lot of young defensemen that go through similar paths. They get a couple chances. It doesn't happen for them or they just go into the wrong spots. And then it's, before you know what, it's over, right? Like, they just don't never get the opportunity of them Falamaki's getting right now. Yeah, and this first NFL season before the ACL injury,

he actually was pretty solid in a third pair role for the flames. And he was showing signs of, signs of, okay, this guy might become a top for a defenseman one day. So especially since he's been playing in Arizona, I think that that bounce back story has, flown under the radar a little bit. But now I'm curious. I really want to hear your list. Well, first off, I'm really happy you included Jake Walman. Yeah. Because one of the most fun players to watch, the story of most Siders, two seasons,

playing with Ben Chirot, and then playing with Jake Walman, are hilarious considering the reputation of Chirot and like what he's been traded for in the past and what he signed for this past summer. And just everything around that is just hilarious to me. And now they're like using Chirot with like Simon Edmondson. It's like almost like a, Like a right of passage, like every young defenseman has to show that they can survive with Ben Chirot as their anchor next to them before they get to play with a real NHL defenseman. But 670 minutes at 515 for cider without Walman, down 14 in terms of goal differential, 42.8 expected goal share. 530 minutes with Jake Walman at 515, plus 7, 52.8% expected goal share. And honestly, at the start of it, you just didn't know what to make of it because Walman's at 2030 minutes.

27-year-old defender now who had 76 NHL games under his belt prior to this season. And so when you start putting up a handful of good games, 50 and 20 games, it's like, is this just kind of a flash in the pan or is this actually something to build off of? And the more you watch him, at least to the eyes, like totally legit in my opinion, right? Like the way he moves and how he utilizes in a functional manner, both on and out the puck, is so cool. And so they wound up signing them, I believe, like a three year, a $3.4 million extension or something.

And it was almost kind of acknowledged the uncertainty in terms of not knowing how much to buy in it and also like some young defenders they have in the system. But I really like it. I always, whenever I have a chance to watch it, I might go out of my way to watch it, and I've really enjoyed it. And as we're recording here,

like last night scored a buzzer-beater against, New Carolina with like three seconds left and then does another cool celebration after. Like just such a fun story and so cool to watch. And so I'm glad you inserted him on this because he's like one of the best stories this season. Brilliant skater. I love the way that he moves. He can create exits with this feet.

He uses that mobility to as one of his best traits defensively. And I think he's also become a lot more competitive in terms of his work rate, which has helped him sort of become reliable defensively. And moving forward, you look at the, you look at the archetype of player that he is. I think he is the real deal. And it's just funny to me that he was the third piece, essentially, in that Nick Letty trade where the Red Wings were moving him as a rental. They picked up a second-notech. They picked up Oscar Sunfist.

And then it's like, Walman was just like a throw in from St. Louis's end. And he's become the most valuable asset in that deal. And ironically enough, Walman is exactly the type of top for defensemen that the blues are desperately looking for right now. Oh, he's the best skating defenseman in that trait, certainly. I love it. Okay. So you had Jonas Brodine on your list. I know this is, oh, wow, an analytics show is going to talk about Jared Spurgeon. I would have just lumped them together. I know. I'll honest, honest to God. And I know that's probably a cop out, right? Yeah. It's like, oh, top 10 list, but it's actually two wild defenders that. that had Olympics love, but my goodness, what a season he's having.

1,600 minutes so far, all situations leads the team. He's taken six penalties in that time, and he's drawn seven. 21, oh, sorry, they're up 56 to 34 with him on the ice at 515. Here's a stat for you, though. The Wilde have played 2,100 515 minutes with either him or Brodine on the ice. They're giving up like 1.5 goals against per hour in that time. And a big reason why I understand there's like, they're also getting like 940 goaltending or something right now from Philip Gustafson and Mark Andre Fleury over the past, however many games. I wouldn't expect that.

But they've reverted back to being sort of what you'd expect from the Minnesota Wild over the years, which was like an incredibly stingy defensive team that basically boxes you out around the net, doesn't give you any good quality looks and are a real pain in the butt to play against, right? And so, you know, Matt Boldy's really picked up the slack without Carol Caprisov in the lineup, and they've been winning a lot without their best player. I wouldn't want to play them in a playoff series because they've shown that, like, they can win in these environments where they just, like, really make the game super ugly and steal a two-one game from you and have enough juice with those top two lines and the power play to score just enough with that defensive environment. And it's because of what Spurgeon is doing with Middleton and then what. proteins doing on the other pairing. Absolutely. I actually felt really bad. I honestly, for for second there, I was like, I want to lump them in together. And actually, my initial thought was I wanted to put Spurgeon on the list. But I was like, like, I was like he's a captain. He's sort of like recognizes as a number one defenseman. So he does get, he's got more scoring. He's got more

cashé. But absolutely, I love the way that he, that he plays. And he's like for any, undersized defensemen, Spurgeon is the model in terms of you want to talk about a guy who learns how to defend in ways with his feet, with a stickwork, with his positioning, with his anticipation, how he gets in on guys' hands. That's like that's the model. That's perfection. Every undersized defenseman should be watching Jared Spurgeon tape nonstop and trying to soak up and learn as much as possible. And also every undersized defender from here on out will also be compared

to Jared's pick as well. So it's both a blessing and a curse. Next on my list of people I would have added, Keondra Miller. Yeah. Now, kind of like on the way of certainly there's going to be a lot of time to give him his praise. And I've talked about a bunch on the show, but I just love a lot of like the reach and the skating that we talked about, like, his ability to

recover without taking penalties and cover so much ground even when he's out of position is just such a rare skill and it's almost like it's a destructive force because you can have a plan of what you want to do offensively and then kandre miller just comes out of nowhere and just takes the puck from you and you're like all right well so so much for that and so um i wanted to include him on there uh do you have any miller thoughts or do on him oh i love yeah like in when i watched because that was the one year where i did a lot of um sort of looking at the draft and analyzing prospects and miller was one of my favorite players because of that reach and that gaining ability that athleticism.

And I think he had a terrific playoff run last spring, which is why, in my mind, I'm, I think I'm also biased because I've always loved the player. So I'm kind of like, like, oh, everybody must know he's good, right? And I think most people are sort of clued in, but you're right that absolutely you could have been on a list like this. Here's one for you. Marcus Pedersen, who for my money has been Pittsburgh's best defenseman this season when he's been healthy.

And the reason we'll order bring him up is because, you know this working in this market, for some reason around the trade deadline there was like the conversation was being framed around oh well if the if the penguins go out and make a splash move they're going to need someone to take on Marcus Pedersen's contract and it's like he's a 27 year old defender making four million and he's literally been their best defenseman I don't understand how the penguins would even come out better making any trade involving him and so he's been a massive positive for for me this year I really like what I've seen from him so I got to want to include him because that's not He's not putting up a lot of points or anything, and I think it's kind of, there's bigger names on that blue line, but he's been really good.

Artem Zub, you can't do an underrated list without including him. Another one that, like, I honestly, like, was just, like, up too late. And so I was like, I don't have it in me to, like, include my honorable mentions and have the little blurbs. But Zub was, like, in terms of the honorable mentions, I swear to God, Zub was on there. Spurgeon was on there and there were a couple other names but I don't mean to go to the LeBron like oh I'd view that too

Oh yeah I've been watching this guy I've been watching this guy but Zubbs definitely a favorite Yeah and the last one I'm not even sure if he's underrated But I think there's some perception Then McKenzie Uighur has been kind of disappointing The season in Calgary

Just because the team's season has been so underwhelming But he's Like there was a lot of Oh well he's played a lot with Eckblad And then even though every time MacBadde would go out of the lineup, McKinseyugur would literally post the exact same results. And then he's had disastrous post seasons in terms of making, like, obvious mistakes. But once again, just like some of the best underlying numbers in the league,

fantastic rush defender. Florida misses him so much more than John other than Huberto. Like if, like, he's such a valuable player. Like he's, like, he's quietly had a really disappointing year. Yeah. I don't know if you saw a camera who it was some, some like, renowned person like a golfer

a pylon yeah is sort of like this is Eric yeah and then people were like oh he must be Eklad's buddy for him to do this

and Eklad was like I don't know we're not friends yeah so I mean Eklaz on a pylon but he's obviously felt the effects of losing Uyghur

yeah because Wigger's such a good rush defender that his ability to whenever he was like the last guy back or something if you want to play a rush game which the Panthers played much more of last year

but his ability to just like I felt confident with him being the last guy back and all of a sudden you don't have him everyone's kind of exposed a little bit more so um wanted to include him all right harm let the listeners know where they can check out these articles we've been talking about and also plug uh i don't know plug your twitter plug whatever you whatever you want to yeah uh the articles are including the bard top 10 underrated uh defensemen are on the athletic and uh you can find me on twitter at harman dial to All right, man, this is a blast. We're going to have you on again soon. I'm sure that's going to be it for this week here in the HockeyPedio cast. We will be back Monday with plenty more. Got a lot of fun shows planned for next week. So looking forward to that. Until then, thank you for listening to the Hockeyedoganyo cast.

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