The Hockey PDOcast - Deep Diving Who the Dallas Stars Are Now, and Who They Could Be by the Deadline

Episode Date: January 31, 2025

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by David Castillo to deep dive what we've seen from the Dallas Stars so far this season, the strengths and weaknesses we've seen from them through the first 50 games, and the uncertainty that surrounds what they could look like due to injuries and trade deadline decisions. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

2015. It's the Hockey PDOCast with your host, Dmitri Filipovich. Welcome to the HockeyPedocast. My name is Demetri Filippovich. And joining me is my good buddy, David Gastio. David, what's going on in? I'm doing great. It's not like anything dramatic has happened in the past week to make hockey more stressful. Certainly not. It's your first appearance on the show here this season. Usually, I save you for heavy usage come the playoffs. Because the star, have made a couple long runs here in the past couple years, and it's given us a lot of opportunities to break stuff down and really get in the weeds with their playoff series. But it had been too long,

and I wanted to check in with you before then and talk about where the Dallas Stars are at at the 50 game mark here, in particular as it relates to sort of previewing down the stretch, the trade deadline where they're obviously going to be one of the heavy players and the central division and sort of there standing within the hierarchy of the central and the west and all that good stuff. Now, today's conversation is kind of clouded, I guess, by the level of uncertainty regarding Mero Haskinen's health and the lack of a true status update of the severity and timeline. We go worried today.

He's deemed week to week for now. Status, obviously, for the Four Nations tournament, highly in doubt. More scanning and all that stuff to come following the bizarre incident on Tuesday night where Mark Stone just dove into his leg. And it certainly didn't look good in real time. Neither you or I are professional. doctors here, but just from watching the game, clearly immediately grabbed at his knee, was invisibly excruciating pain,

didn't really put any weight on it while getting help to the locker room. So obviously not what you want to see, but I think without kind of getting into the weeds of that incident or the angst about all of everything that resulted from it, I think in framing it for our conversation, it actually ties in neatly in terms of, of I wanted to talk to you about Jim Nill's upcoming approach at this year's deadline, whether we see him push in a more aggressive direction ahead of the March 7th deadline,

then maybe he's done in years past because he's generally been a GM who is very reserved. We saw him acquire Chris Tannaev last year, certainly, but for the most part, he likes to do his heavy lifting in the off season. He loves to preserve his first round picks and his prospects, and understandably so because they do an incredible job of mining. talent out of those. But I'm curious for your take and whether Mero's status right now or the uncertainty surrounding it influences that and will help dictate kind of how this organization approaches this year's trade deadline. Well, I have a Dave Jackson take, which is that,

well, it might and it might not. And, and, you know, my personal, I think it does. I think it does because before, I think before Heiskin's injury, I think this conventional wisdom was that, well, hey, let's add a Ford. Let's, you know, maybe, and again, I'm not working on with any insider information or kind of special privileged, although I am credentialed, but I don't think they're in the running for like a J.T. Miller. In fact, ESPN even reported that Jim Neal is only looking at UFAs. The way the cap works for them, they're just going to be tied up in too many things like the Wyatt Johnston, you know, raise, pay raise next year, Thomas Harley in two years, Jason Robertson, et cetera. And so I don't think, so to me that doesn't change

thing. What I do think it changes is that with high skin and out, they're going to see this defense really laid bare. And where I think the focus was on forwards, I think having high skin and out is really going to allow us to kind of see that, hey, wait a minute, like maybe the defense is kind of what should have been the focus, perhaps all along. This is not a popular. what take with stars fans. But I ask you, Dmitri, son of Mirko, who does Dallas miss more? Joe Pavelski or Chris Tanna? Oh, man. The Joe Pavelsky we saw down the stretch last year or the theoretical ideal of what he was a couple years ago. Well, I mean, so, so yeah, it wasn't necessarily a rhetorical question. I was trying to like back the corner. But I really do think that a big part of, for example,

how they beat Vegas was having somebody else that could play Jack Eichael, for example, who I think is just one of the best one-on-one players, is the best one-on-one forward in the league. You know, he's like that old Peter Forsberg rule, right? You can't stop them. You just have to contain them. And I think that's what Dallas was able to do when they were able to roll out multiple shutdown pairs that could contain them rather than just one. And so I say all that to say this, which is that I do believe that having high-skinned and out will really emphasize that, hey, wait a minute, like maybe maybe Chris Tannaf is the answer. Maybe TANF is the guy we miss more, even with Joe Pavelski

at his height, because of what we were able to accomplish. I mean, the biggest problem with Dallas's offense was really the power play, and that includes the playoffs. So don't forget, right, that this team played five defensemen in the Edmonton series. And that was another big part of why they lost, in my opinion. So I think it's, I think what it does is it allows Dallas to focus on what do we have, what do we really have defensively? Can Thomas Harley take that next step? And maybe I'm kind of jumping around too quick, but is Liam Bixel really like the rookie that we think he is? And so if that's not the case, then maybe they'll go with a top four defender and a debt forward instead of a top six forward and just a debt defender.

I mean, Chris Tanev, as we documented while it was happening in real time, the outsized impact he had on this team was undeniable in round one against Vegas. He matched like with Ikel. line for 47 5-15 minutes held them to zero goals in the next round against Colorado, 69, really nice minutes at 5-15 against Nathan McKinnon and held the avalanche to just wadden goals. So there's no denying that. I think they're in an interesting spot and it might be kind of counterintuitive because even before this injury, assuming full health and all the players in place, I would have argued no matter what that the blue line addition was more important in probably the area they could

squeeze the most juice at a team and not necessarily in the conventional way of what Chris Tannes provided last year, which was another option to play against the other team's top players and bolster your team defense because you look at their defensive metrics this year and even without Tanev, their third in goals against, their third and expected goals against, their third on the penalty kill, their top 10 and all the stats you look at like slot shots, inner slot shots, allowed all that good stuff. Offensibly though, I do think there is another gear to hit here. and in particular in terms of the puck moving talent on the blue line. Their approach this offseason was one I disagreed with,

where they pivoted from losing Tanev to spending about $7 million in cap space on the combination of Ilya Lubbushkin and Matt Dumbah on the right side. And I know this is a topic that you've harped on quite a bit in your writing and coverage of this team recently. There's sort of relative lack compared to the other top teams in the league of true passing ability. throughout the lineup and kind of how that can kind of impact them at times and maybe cause some of these offensive stagnations. And I think a lot of that emanates from the back end where if you don't have Mero or Harley out there and sometimes they're playing together, that creates all these extra

minutes where you don't have guys who can actually facilitate the types of transition opportunities that they look to feast on. And so I think regardless of Hayskenen status, I would say that's probably the area where you could create the biggest gains, I guess, for this current roster. Sure, you can always add offensive talent up front and it's good to have additional weapons and various combinations

in terms of your forward group. But I just feel like getting someone who can facilitate the way this team wants to attack in the minutes where Hayskin and Harley aren't out there is once again similar to last year the most pressing need for Jim Nell here. No, that is exactly. And that's why I,

I sort of wrote something kind of idiotic on the substack, which is why I think Seth Jones made it a lot of sense and why I think he does make a lot of sense. Now, obviously, this is not going to happen. This is sort of Fantasyland where Chicago retains like 90% of Seth Jones's contract. But conceptually, at least, I think Jones would have been, to me at least, kind of a really good target. And I know he's not perfect. He has a lot of issue with allowing entries against really passive defenders. but at the same time, he does address something that Dallas is going to have to contend with and really reckon with, you know, as they go into the playoffs, which is, wow, you know, our blue line doesn't really generate a whole lot of offense for us. Why is that? Well, it's because Heiskin, for as great as he is, has always been more Devon Tays than Kail McCar. And I think sort of the fact that he exists in this weird hyperspace between the two, I think

gives people the impression that he can be the other one. You can be them a car. Just give him enough power play time. I'm just giving him enough chances. Give him a quality line mate, which he already has. And that's not who he is. And that is not a criticism at all. I think it's just a misunderstanding of what he really is,

which is a shutdown defender through and through, happens to have some offensive skill. But I do think that would be a better, right? It's kind of like you mentioned, right? The player that they add doesn't have to be a Tantan clone. There are different ways to buffer a top four. And it doesn't have to be a shutdown. guy. And that's why I think

Jones, again, conceptually at least makes sense, as opposed to like a David Savard. To me, if Dallas is looking at David Savard, then they're making the same mistake they did when they decided, oh, well, let's add Matt Dunba, who is Tony Ferguson levels washed, and Illa Lubbushkin,

who's been a pleasant surprise, but still to me is very much an overachiever. He's a guy that, ideally, Dallas has add somebody in the top four, and you have someone like Bixel and Lubbushkin in the bottom pair, That's perfect. It's exactly what you didn't have in that Edmonton series.

It is. I think ideally you would add someone who can play full-time at 5-1-5 with S. Lendell and allow you to just play Miro and Harley at all times together as a pair, because once again we've seen this year that it's a dream combination. Obviously, they use them situationally, especially in terms of scoring opportunities. And the offensive zone starts are very heavily sheltered in that sense. But they're in the 60s in terms of like every single shot chance, expected goal, actual goal scored, share when those two guys are out on the ice.

It just completely tilt the ice in their favor. And so creating an environment where you can viably play those guys at even strength and then have someone who can support Lindell in terms of addressing some of his relative limitations, I guess, as a player and someone who can facilitate some of that transition. And then have that slotted in third pair would be the way to go, especially when we speak a lot about how unique the stars are in terms of the way they create offense, right? Whether you want to deem it a cherry picker or whatever sort of calculator approach they take, they're still, once again, the most aggressive team that I see in the league of getting their wingers to fly the zone

whenever they sniff an opportunity to create on-man rushes and to force the other team into sagging back defensively and creating all these pockets in the neutral zone that they can then attack in. And so adding a defender who could actually more times than not only complete that pass, but then potentially join that rush attack as the fourth guy in for a team that's second in the league or wherever already in rush chances.

So the opportunities are going to be there. I think that's an incredibly enticing proposition. I know that Jim Nell is the type of GM who is probably going to view it as a one and done in terms of focusing on the rental market because of all those future expenditures that you have to account for, as you said, with Robertson and Harley

and Wyatt Johnson's upcoming extensions and pay raises that are coming over the next two summers. I would have pushed back, though, that that needs to be the route they take because I think taking on future salary assuming it's on the right player is okay from their perspective. Because you look at it, obviously Jamie Ben's $9.5 million

is coming off the books this summer. And even if they bring him back and he ends his career in Dallas, the next rate he plays on is going to obviously going to be a fraction of that. They've shown an ability with guys like Dusha and Dajanov to convince veterans to come back on below market AABs. So there's that. And I'm still skeptical that Tyler Sagan and his contract are going to factor into this. I know there's the hope that he's going to come back for the postseason.

and I think he will, but just in terms of projecting a head, the type of injury he has is so unique. And here I go again, getting into the doctor side of things. But I feel like the availability there is like, I think it's very realistic to project that there will be another LTIR stint at some point in the future with that deal as well. And so taking on future salary, I feel like isn't as prohibitive as you necessarily think, especially with the accounting for the cap spiking. over the next couple years as well. So I don't know. I think that would open many more doors as opposed to strictly limiting yourself

to just the peer rental market. I'm not sure the gym nail and the stars would see it that way. But if I was approaching this, I would be looking at it much more of a, who's the best player we can add, even if it comes with another year or two of salary in the books, as opposed to just being like,

all right, well, let's just grab the best rental even if he doesn't actually move the needle that much for us. No, I agree 100%. And part of the, oh, sorry, 110, I got to talk at Sportspeak. And I think part of the reason why is that, and I'm sure you've talked about this on the show, which is that the market sucks. You look at the trade board.

If you're only looking at UFAs, you're looking at players, you know, for me, and you bring up a great point, which I don't think anybody has mentioned, like, in the Star's Media space, which is the idea that the Sagan injury, yes, like, it's unfortunate for the season, but you're talking about a player that may, you know, have issues down the line. And so maybe you don't have to be so timid about, you know, kind of how you, you know, deal with the cap and just sort of do what Vegas does. You know, deal with it when the time comes. Right now you're trying to, you know, push your chips in, right? And that's what you should kind of prepare for.

It's not like Jim Nills crippled the team in, you know, some sort of strange convoluted way. And so I kind of, I mean, like, what I've always said about the saying thing is that, listen, if you want to content, you can't replace. him. Like, you bring it in someone like McHale Granlin, nice player, it's not going to be enough. It's not going to be enough if you want to beat Connor McDavid in a playoff series or Connor Hellbuck. So you need to upgrade.

Upgrade the Sega position. I mean, it's worth remembering that Sagan was having a career year. Point per game, which I think has been the highest since what, like, maybe since he first came to Dallas. But

anyways, the point being that you need to upgrade that position. It's kind of why I think someone like, even though I don't really like J.T. Miller, I think he's a good player. He's a kind of player that would absolutely push Dallas kind of over the edge in terms of having the talent to kind of really win and win a cup. But long term, not really the biggest fan. But at the same time, he would be an upgrade over Sagan. Sagan was largely an afterthought over the last couple of seasons. And that to me, I think, is kind of what the approach or at least what the approach, I think, should be. And that's what makes them the most interesting team in the league right now.

Like, they're a team with injuries, an early run of poor play, an absolute troll biscuit of a power play. And yet they're comfortably second the central. And they're going to have over $10 million in LTIR money to work with ahead of the deadline. So they're kind of the ultimate mystery box contender who could be either exponentially better or the way Vegas was last year or perhaps even a team like San Jose. I mean, are they the Chad Mendes of hockey? I don't know, but I do think something bolder, somebody would term makes more sense than

UFA's like Brock Besser and Brock Nelson. Yeah, it's interesting. In a lot of ways, I'm glad you brought that up when you consider the circumstances of how their season's gone with the injuries and the slow starts offensively for a lot of their forwards through the first 50 games, their fifth and point percentage. They're within shouting distance, I don't think. They'll necessarily catch the Jets because the Jets are such a while old machine right now, but it points back with two games in hand.

They're most importantly ahead of Minnesota and sticking in that bracket of not playing Colorado in round one as a wildcar team is interesting. I think you and I have had this conversation before and I've spoken about it a lot as it relates to the stars in the past, especially two off seasons ago. But I think inarguably the biggest swing from actually addressing this team's need

and improving their outlook for not only this year but next year as well would be someone with Eric Carlson's skill set. Now I understand the reservations in terms of obviously the cap hit and whatever. As you said, a lot of the coverage of this team seems to be like,

well, very binary from, oh, we lost Tyler Sagan, so that's the area we need to address. As we've kind of spoken about here off the top, I agree that the office. offense needs to improve. I just think similar to a team like the Florida Panthers right now, it probably needs to come from improving the blue line and trying to kind of check a lot of these boxes. And when you talk about what I said earlier, a player who can play with Lundell

and kind of fit nicely stylistically with him to allow you to play Hayeskin and Harley together, a player who thrives in joining the rush and stretch passes to these wingers who are flying the zone, potentially improving a 23rd rank power play, a power play that I believe only the Kings amongst playoff teams is less efficient at. I just, I feel like there's one, there's only one real player that's theoretically available, though, to address that. There's a lot of hurdles to jump through. It's certainly not Jim Nils M.O. So it might just be a waste of time on our end. It's kind of wishcasting. But man, you just look at all those details, and I feel like it's almost unavoidable at that point.

Yeah, by the way, is this where we talk about the power play or have you segmented that for later? No, you can get into it. I think it's a big part of kind of crafting the story around this team's very bizarre results through the first 50 games. Oh, my God. I mean, I've lost count of how many blood vessels I've heard pop in from Stars fans over Steve spot. And I want to give respect to Stars fans because this isn't, and really anybody that pays attention

to hockey. general and kind of who the ultimate contenders are. Because this isn't a this season problem. This is arguably why they lost the Edmonton series. Zero for 14, not a single power play goal. And more than that, there is a pattern, which is that aggressive penalty killing units tend to shut down the Dallas stars. Didn't address it in the Edmonton series? Haven't addressed it this season.

And there are tangible reasons for that. I mean, if you looked at Dallas's expected goals on the power play, this is why I agree with you. This is why Eric Carlson, while it's a gamble, makes sense conceptually, kind of like with the Seth Jones thing, which is that when you look at, like, they have some good underlying numbers. And I think it's kind of worth emphasizing because maybe there's a little bit of regression there. And maybe Dallas kind of deserves the benefit of doubt because the two seasons prior, they were really good at least in the regular season. But Jack Han, and I'm sure you've talked about this, Jack Han is kind of. talked about the Vegas powerplay specifically and how it's not a unit that kind of moves in sort of perfunctory rotations and, and, you know, maintain structure and yada, yada.

No, they'd like shift in kind of interior and exterior layers. And when you watch Dallas, they're the complete opposite of that, where they just kind of, hey, let's, you know, ban at the flank. He's going to switch with Johnston, who's going to, you know, who is originally the bumper and these flank and bumper positions are going to switch. We're going to get shots on net. And when you look at the heat maps for both teams, Vegas clearly defined shots generated in every single distinct position.

Dallas, all of it's through the middle. And the problem with that is that they don't really have a proper quarterback. And I'm not just talking about the point. Yes, I think high skin has specific issues with just lack of deception. You know, kind of like a price fight, right? I mean, you don't just throw punches, you faint, you deceive, you bob and weave. He doesn't do any of that. And I don't know if he maybe, like, I feel like he had some of that in him at some point,

but it is not there this season. And he just kind of lob shots to the front of the net, hoping for a rebounds. And it really feels like Ben and Highson in particular play like Joe Pavelsky is still there. Play like, oh, if we just lob a shot to the net, someone's going to magically deflect the puck and we're going to score goals. And so the idea of adding somebody there to quarterback it, leave high skin and alone, let him do his thing and even strength, is very powerful because this is a problem that's going to continue

if they just don't address it. Yeah, it will. And especially once you get into the later stages of the postseason, as you saw last year, you're going to run into teams who don't have those limitations. And every time it's a very odd even scale where it's like every time you make a mistake and take a penalty, they're going to punish you for it.

And then they have much more leeway to play aggressively themselves because there's no real risk of you doing likewise to them. So I don't know, I just, I look at this team and part of it is being addressed naturally now as Robertson gets up to speed and his production has improved Wyatt Johnston as well. And so some of that is being remedied just by their top forwards producing to the rate that I think we've become accustomed to in the past. but I still think in terms of optimizing your offensive attack and making sure that you're prepared to punish whatever the opponent is in rounds not only one but two, three,

and potentially the Stanley Cup final, those are probably the areas where you stand to gain the most, especially with how we know that once we come to the postseason, as you mentioned earlier, it's going to, you know, Pete DeBore is going to cut it down to a five-man rotation probably on the blue line. And all of a sudden, your options just become so limited and everything, matters that much more. I want to get into some of the individual performances we've seen and kind of breaking down the developments we've seen there from those guys this year. Let's take our break here before we do that. And then when we come back, we'll jump back into it and we're going to get into all that good stuff. You're listening to the Hockeypedio cast streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network.

All right. We're back here in the Hockeypedio cast joined by David Kestio. We're talking about the Dallas Stars. We talked about it from kind of a team angle off the top in the first half of the show. Let's get into the specifics on the individual players. I want to talk to you about Robertson, Wyatt Johnston, and Thomas Harley, specifically, we'll break them down one by one. Do you want to start with Robertson, just because I feel like the strides he's made, if you kind of break the season into quarters, comparing the first 25 games when he was coming back from that off-season foot surgery and looked like a shell of the player he was

physically to what he's looked like more recently in terms of his offensive involvement and obviously the stats that have come with it. I feel like that's probably the most encouraging development because even when Wyatt Johnson wasn't scoring to the rate we expect from him, especially after his offensive explosion on the national stage last year in the postseason, he was still generating chances and still involved. And it was like, all right, well, eventually he's too talented for this to continue. Whereas Robertson, I think his play, based on all the underlying markers,

was pretty alarming. It's right at itself here recently, which is definitely, I think, a reason for optimism. What have you kind of seen from him and how do we break down the first 25 games we saw compared to the most recent 24 or 25? Well, I think sort of started with the injury, which she had to remove assist from his foot before the season started, missed training camp.

I think, you know, has some explanatory power. Again, I guess we get it. It's my turn to play doctor, I guess. Has some explanatory power, but not a lot. I think a big part of why Robertson struggled is because, well, hints also struggled. And also they didn't have a third man. And it wasn't really necessarily about Joe Pavelsky. It's also about the guy who started on the top line, Logan Stancove, and also struggled.

So it really was a perfect storm of things combining to really suppress Robertson's kind of true value. Yes, injury, to what extent we don't know. but there were a lot of things happened at once all at the same time. And it's also worth note in the first 10 games, Dallas's expected goal share, which is awful. It's wretched. Again, small sample size didn't mean anything in the long term, obviously. But nonetheless, I do think that with how the season has progressed, it's also one of the reasons why I feel like you don't need, like it would be better to go for a top four defender.

go back to where you said like an Eric Carlson, because a lot of these things offensively, I think, not all of them, but will take care of themselves. The fact that Robertson is getting going, along with the other forwards, is crucial. And so now I think Robertson is at the point where he really is in his element. Like the line with Johnston and Hince against Vegas, just absolutely destroyed.

And I think part of that's a function of Robertson, who really, I think, benefits most when his teammates kind of have that chemistry. Because he's not a player that can really just do things on his own, like a Caprosoff or a Kutrov or a McKinnon. He really needs that support to be fully maximized, which I think is true of all kind of inherent, like playmakers in general.

They're never fully maximized until they're fully maximized. And so I think he's in that groove right now. And I think that is kind of what, that's going to be a big part of what fixes the offense, in my opinion. It will. The first 26 games, five goals, 10 assists, 60 shots on goal. The next 24 since then. 12 goals, 19 assists, 83 shots on goal. And since the holiday break, the only players with more points than Jason Robertson have been David Pasternak and Akita Kutrov. He's tied with Dreisaitel and Lucas Raymond, who's absolutely been blowing up here recently. I still think there's some

alarming kind of three-year trends here where if you go back to four years ago, go, his high danger chance rate on a permanent per 60 basis peaked at 4.97, then the following year of 4.1, 2,2, then 3.27 all the way down at 2.67 this year. And that kind of harkens back to the conversations we've had for a couple post seasons now in terms of his ability to keep creating those looks. What we've seen is really encouraging. And I think that's a great shout on your end in terms of talking about that line in particular, because the performance we saw from Wyatt Johnston in the most recent game. in Vegas where they go down 3-1, he scores three straight goals, one at 5-15, one short-handed,

and then obviously the overtime winner three-on-three was some special stuff and something that I think we just came to expect last postseason and obviously didn't see it that much early on this year. But you look and he's sixth in slot shots, ninth and inner slot shots, second in cycle chances. He's been getting his looks and now they're finally starting to go in from him. So I'd expect a big goal scoring surge here, especially if that trio can keep playing like this. But I just think it's really cool to see that Johnston, who I certainly never lost faith in along the way, is finally starting to kind of look like the player offensively that he had been previously. Yeah, it's hard to, again, I think Johnston was kind of like, it's really, it needs to be emphasized that there was really only one line working for Dallas, which was the Sagan line when the season first.

started. And so, you know, I say that just to kind of emphasize that Johnson was really kind of a similar situation with Robertson, where Ben, who all started slow, we've talked about Stankovin, as well as Maverick Bork, right, all these players were starting slow. And so I think that, you know, we, it's one of the things that I think, kind of, I think used to be emphasized with, quote, quote, chart huggers, as we're sometimes called, which is the emphasis on quality of teammates. And I think whenever players struggle, people's first thought is like, oh, well, they're not getting to the dirty areas. And, well, you know, maybe they're nursing an injury. Usually it's linked to who their teammates are. And for Johnson, I think it was the same thing.

You know, they bore quite, I think it's been, who I think is really good. I'm a big fan of But definitely not the kind of player that was just kind of, you know, help kind of spark and ignite, you know, Johnson's talent level. And yes, Johnston was there on the top line early in the season, a brief cameo. But nonetheless, I think we're at the point now where Johnston is very much kind of firing on all cylinders. And I think it helps that a lot of the players he's surrounded by have also kind of synced up together.

And so, yeah, there's not a whole lot to add. When I watch Johnston, I really enjoy, I think credit needs to go to, and I can't remember his name, Dallas is Skating Coach. Luke Choncock. Because, yes, my goodness, why do you know that and I don't? I'm terrible. Because Luke's great, a loyal listener of the show and a phenomenal guy who's obviously done incredible work with his organization in the past couple years. Yes. And that's, it's something that you've seen in a lot of Dallas's players, which is, what was the, you know, book on Robertson and why he fell the second round?

Poor Skaden. And it really was. And obviously he still struggles, but it's so much better. Like, over the last couple of years, it's really improved. Bork, super choppy skater, has looked much better in the H.L. And now in Dallas. And Johnson, same thing. Like, if you really look at his skating from this season to last season to when he was juniors, he's much more agile. He's a little bit quicker, better first step. And so it was, it was bizarre to me why he wasn't scoring because he was playing really well. But he's another player that's, I think, really benefited from Dallas's skating coach. And again, I didn't use his name because I already forgot it. But I mean to reach out to him because I really want to interview him. I really

want to talk to him. And I'm just kind of curious how that works because that's something else that I think it's been evident in his game and nobody really talks about it. Luke Chocot's the best. Last postseason when our pal, Sean Shapiro and I were joking

about how Niels Lundquist was probably getting sore from sitting on the bench for such extended periods of time. He like reached out right after and was breaking down the regimen that him and Niels were going through during these playoff games where like in the tunnel he was doing all these exercises and stuff just to make sure that he was ready to go if the situation

called for it. So no, he's the best in the biz. Let's talk a little bit about Thomas Harley because I haven't really, especially when you compare it to last postseason and part of it was sort of shiny new toy, right? He bursts on the scene. He finally starts playing the types of minutes that we've been clamoring for and is producing and scoring a bunch of goals. I think it was natural for us to gravitate towards that and spend a lot of time focusing on it. I haven't spoken nearly as much about him this season. And I want to rectify that here because while he's not scoring the same amount as he was last year, he scored 15 goals in 79 games. He has 7 and 48 this year and is on pace for about 10 fewer points. That's kind of a byproduct of just the reality that shooting over 10%

as a defenseman in this league, especially year over year, is next to impossible and it's just not a realistic expectation. Yet despite that, I think what he's done this year is just as impressive, if not even more so because oftentimes we fall into this trap with young defensemen where on a permanent basis, especially in very carefully curated roles, their underlying numbers look amazing, right? And every time they're on the ice, something's good as happening. And I think we just assume, all right, well, if this player suddenly starts playing top pair of minutes or top four minutes regularly, they're going to keep playing this way and maybe even improve. And then the pitfall we come into is a lot of times that doesn't happen because more exposure,

exposes whatever weaknesses you have, especially after one great year. Other teams start kind of game planning for your tendencies, start taking away the stuff that you'd prefer to do. And if you don't adapt, you're going to fail. And we've seen so many young defensemen go through that in the NHL. What you've seen from Harley this year, though,

is despite increased usage and more tape on him, he's improved in my eyes. He hasn't been scoring as much as I said, but a lot of his stuff underlying under the hood is off the charts by pretty much any metric you look at. He's been doing a lot of it while playing nearly 400, 5-on-5 minutes this year with either Lubushkin

or Dumba and add so much value in a couple different ways that we're going to highlight here. But I just wanted to give him a bit of love because we haven't spoken about him that much on the PDO cast this year, but he's really impressed me with the progression he's made in sort of year or two of him really being a top-level guy for the Stars team.

I'm so glad you emphasized hard. Charlie and give him the love that he deserves because it's one of the, like, I feel like Stars fans don't either. I feel like there is, and this is not directed to Stars fans. I think it's like really hockey fans in general, right? The expectation that if you're a puck move in defenseman, well, you should be scoring points, right? And this is something that Travis Yos kind of really highlighted many years ago about, you know, how, you know, defensive production actively affects scoring, which is not near as much as you

would think. And so I think when you look at Dallas, they're kind of, so the last I saw of Corey's data when he released is that Dallas actually leads the NHL and chances directly off clean entries. Right. So great rush team, even more than Carolina, who usually just dominates in this area, but their shooting percentage on the rush is below average. And I think sort of Harley's production is kind of a byproduct of that. I think in terms of, well, he does so many things well in transition, in terms of entries with possession, generating chances as a result, but because Dallas isn't constructed in such a way that, you know, they don't have those elite finishers. And you could say like Robertson and Hins kind of like

border on that. I don't think they're quite there. I think they need the right set of circumstances to be there. And so when that's not necessarily aligned, then I think this is what you get, which is Harley Wyatt production-wise, but still such a great shift-to-shift defender. Like not enough is said about how great he is protecting the puck in the defensive zone and getting it out with possession. This is something that I remember talking about in the Vegas series, which is how mature he looked defensively and how not enough is said about the fact that he's still so young, right? I mean, last, was it last year or this year that was his first, last year, last year there was his first full season.

And I think he's a player that is still kind of finding that next level. And if he reaches that, I don't see any reason why he can't be one of the top 10 puck movers in the league. Yeah, I believe that at last check, the stars are 26th in the league or so in terms of quantifying finishing, in terms of like goals scored above expected. Now, it's interesting because while I note that Harley himself hasn't been scoring as much, and individual scoring for defensemen is very sort of situationally oriented, the stars are actually scoring more in his five-on-five minutes on a permanent basis this year than they did last season.

last year he was at what 3.21 on ice goals for per 60 if I-15. This year it's up to 3.26, which is actually seventh most out of a 191 defenseman who have played 400 minutes. Another area he adds value is there's been 196 defensemen with 400 minutes played all situations. He takes penalties at the 13th lowest rate as well. And the reason why I note those is because you look at Dom Luscian's player cards, for example, and you look at the market value that he's provided, and obviously they went

with the two-year bridge deal to keep his AAB down to make stuff work for them financially. He's providing about $9.7 million worth in terms of market value salary right now. And that's kind of how you get to that figure, right? It's kind of putting all these things together and looking at what actually drive success, especially from that position, because I think you can get yourself in trouble when you so directly tie, goals scored, and points generated specifically from the individual perspective and assign that as value of how well a defenseman is playing offensively for their team. Yeah, it's kind of unfortunate that they, you know, given that bridge deal, but I mean,

also kind of just you can't give everybody max term. And, and I think it's, it's also, like, I'm really glad we're talking about Harley because I would argue that also this is something that really illustrates why sort of the need for a top four defender is so imperative. Dallas is actually quite sloppy on the breakout. Yes, they get out with possession,

but turning that possession into transition and clean entries is a different matter entirely, and that's because well, they have two players that do that extremely well. Miro Heiskin and Thomas Harley, and that's it.

And so So, yeah, it's, it's his, his presence affects a lot of different things. In addition to the fact that he should be running the top powerplay unit. And, and I think until, I think that's kind of why the high skin injury is so productive in the way that Dallas can learn so much. If Harley plays on the top unit and kills it, then we, then end of discussion, right? I mean, we don't have to not say that I think the power play is going to be fixed by Harley's presence alone, but just that he, he's a player that adds value in so many subtle and explicit ways. It never gets talked about enough.

And I think because he sort of lives in the shadow, Heiskin offensively, but then defensively, nobody really kind of thinks of him as comparable to Lindell or even Lubushkin for that matter. But he is so much more than just some of his parts. Well, here's the thing. Yeah, yeah.

I want to harp on this a little bit more because obviously I think someone like Stankov, in the year he's had, is a bit of an isolated case where he's just having such a cursed season as a finisher. He scored six goals on 219 shot attempts. He's shooting under 5% on the ones he actually gets on net. That's obviously kind of like,

when you're that low, everything is going to get distorted. I don't think that's an accurate representation, obviously, of what he is as a player or ties into this conversation about the stars as a team when we cite their finishing. Because I look at the rest of this forward group and I don't really, while there's not like a Leon Dreysidal level finisher of someone who you're just like banking on being in the 20s and just being a freak in terms of their efficiency as a shooter and a shot converter, there's a bunch of good shooting talent that should be scoring more often.

And I do wonder whether that ties into the point that you've been making time and time again and that we reference off the top that part of them might be driven by this team's passing ability where we know how. how efficiency in terms of shooting is driven so often are tied to pre-shaw movement and precision in terms of getting the puck to where it needs to be and then firing before the opposing goalie and defense can adjust. If you don't have that down, I feel like that can sort of manifest itself in some of these results we're seeing

because that's the only explanation from you from a team-wide perspective of why you're kind of seeing that general trend. Yeah, and I think maybe also perhaps has some kind of tangential sort of relationship with the whole kind of the what I've always called cherry planning, right, which I think is better than, you know, the concept of a cherry picker, which is, you know, Dallas's kind of abilities sort of blow the zone, which, which I think has some very explicit benefits, not just because we see a Doddanov breakaway every other

game, but also, I think also kind of puts them in a position where, they may not necessarily always be in the best position, right? With the players kind of so isolated from one another with that style and that tactic, not having that close proximity means that, well, they're not always in the best position to make, you know, these Tick-Tac-Tot plays. So I do think there's something of a trade-off. Like, I don't necessarily think it's, I think a little bit of it's by design, in other words. I think a little bit it is, well, perhaps DeBore and the coach and staff,

don't feel like, you know, this is the team that can necessarily handle that kind of interconnected Tampa Bay or Colorado style, I think in part because they don't have the speed. Dallas, I mean, I don't know what the, I know we have like edged out on this kind of stuff, but I mean, most of Dallas players are not, you know, they're not blade runners, right? You have hints and to a lesser degree, Stankovin, who I think is quick, but not like fast, fast. And that's pretty much it, right? I mean, oh, Dushain.

I'd add D'Sheane there, yeah. And I guess Marchman, when he's firing on all sol, he's been out for a little bit. The Dushan shout is a good one, because he's obviously been such a godsend for this team, producing the way he has at $3 million, both this year and last year, especially when you consider that he's costing a division rival

twice that on their cap over this year and next year. He leads the team in scoring with 48 points and 50 games. As you mentioned off the top, the only line that was really click. for them early in the year was him with Sagan and Marchment since then he's lost both and it's come down a little bit but it still feels like whoever you put with him you're going to squeeze out as much offensive juice as you can and we've seen him sort of reinvigorate some of these guys along the way as well so I just feel like in talking about this team's offensive performance it's

not all doing gloom because I feel like what they've gone from him has certainly been I mean quite a blessing and and honestly surprising to me that he's been this efficient still at this point of his career. Well, that's a great point because I feel like when I think about Dushain, I also kind of think about sort of the broader narrative of we so often talk about development at the level of prospects and younger players and not at the level of veterans. And to me, that's one thing that I think is really kind of defined Duchenne's career ever since he was put on wing in Nashville, which is, I think, the development of his playmaking skills. Like I've always been a sucker for, you know, fast players. And so I don't,

don't ever remember seeing Duchenne be such an efficient pastor until had that stint at wing with Forthburg and Nashville. And then, of course, in Dallas, like that, those playmaking shops have just been better than ever, especially on the backhand, like just phenomenal on his backhand. And so, and so he's a really great story. He's going to be a really difficult one when it comes to the offseason because, you know, it's one of the reason why players like J.T. Miller and Brock Nelson are not the most interesting to me as potential additions because I was just kind of inherently skeptical of, you know, older players that see this uptick, you know, however sustained. I realize like Miller and Nelson have, you know, had multiple seasons of great

production, but I'm always a little bit skeptical that, you know, that's going to, you know, even for just one extra year. But nonetheless, I do think, you know, Dushain is, is really part of what has kept Dallas's offensive float. And yeah, we didn't really kind of talk about him enough, but beyond the fact that he's just leading the team in points, it's also been crucial to, for example, making players like Maverick Fork more valuable, who's had great chemistry with him lately.

No, he certainly has. I was going to ask you, is there anything else to cover with this team? I just feel like it's such a TBD, though, because on the one hand, as we said, it's remarkable that they're fifth in the league in point percentage, and arrow, up in terms of a lot of these players finally starting to produce.

Yet on the other hand, with the Mero injury and also, I think, the elephant in the room of how rare it is that a contender like this has about 13 or so million by my count when they put, say, again, an LTIR for Capspace editions and kind of what they're going to do with that in concert with a GM who might not necessarily be completely using all of it. We're going, you know, all in on just one season, kind of taking a more measured of pro. you put all those things together and it makes for this very interesting medley, I guess, of stuff to ponder. You got any parting shots here on the stars or anything we didn't cover?

Or do you think it's a matter of, first off, we need to see how they look like in this foreseeable future without Hayeskin. And then the next shoe, the drops come the deadline when we see what they actually choose to do. I would simply ask you a question, right, which is that, because I think this is what, defines Dallas, right? When it gets down to the marrow and it's Stanley Cup playoffs, is it better to have many players with varying qualities of good or only a few players with specific qualities of great in the playoffs? I think we've clearly seen that it's the latter,

especially the leagues gravitated so much towards that because we see that, I mean, having depth in various options is great and we often tend to lionize depth contributors who come out of nowhere and go on these goal scoring runs in the postseason, and that's great, and you do need that. And even Edmonton last year for all to talk about Dr. Dreis Idol and McDavid contributions they got from like Matias Yadmark and Adam Henrique and Connor Brown and all this stuff,

and especially on the penalty kill, it was obviously very valuable and critical of their success. But when your star players get to just go all in in terms of maximizing their usage, and especially in these power play situations that are driven so much by those players, I feel like having one or two guys who can take either a game or series over and break it open or kind of push it in your team's favor is ultimately what's going to decide it. Now, that is the most important question for the Stars team, especially what comparing them to either Colorado or Edmonton or maybe even to an extent Vegas, if you want to say, because of what we've seen from Jack I goal this season. I'm not sure that's something you can necessarily remedy at this point in terms of especially in season, but I do think that's,

a very, very fair question. And that's where I'm at. I mean, that's, to me, it's either, either you lean into that identity, just all systems go. And you know what, let's just, let's further improve our depth. Let's get a top four defender. Let's get another depth defender because they, Niels-Lunquist is never going to be a part of this top six, no matter how like, you know, much you should or get a chance to be trusted and whatnot.

but I think that's kind of, I think that's what makes Dallas so interested, right? They're either going to be somebody that can sort of buck the trend and be that kind of, I hate using the St. Louis example because I don't, St. Louis was such an elite team for so many years during that season that, oh, they all of a sudden got bad and then they reversed course. Well, they had been great for years. Multiple, I think what, Western Conference finals appearances? Um, so that's probably like the path that Dallas needs to take, but is it the path that's going to, you know, allow them to win? I don't know. Well, let's put a pin in it here. I think that's a great way to end. Uh, very ominous, but also, uh, thought provoking. And then we're going to circle back and we're going to carry on this conversation after the deadline. Once we have more clarity on what we're working with, I'm sure.

going to be planning for us to discuss then. I'll let you plug some stuff here on the way out, David. Let the listeners know where they can check you out and while you've got cooking with your coverage of this team. Well, I appreciate the shameless plugs. I run a substack, Starstack, where I do a lot of film room analysis. I'm also like a sucker for prospect hockey,

so I cover the prospects as well. And yeah, I've even got a soapbox piece today about why I think my hot take that Marks should have been suspended five games. Not that I think he's a dirty player. And of course, do a lot of work at D Magazine with Robert Tiffin and Sean Shapiro, who are great guys as well. So that's pretty much it.

Well, keep up the great work. Looking forward to having you on again soon as we get into crunch time here for the season. Thank you to everyone for listening to us. You can help us out by smashing the five-star button wherever you listen to the show. Join us in the PDOCast Discord as well. and we've got one more show here, I believe, to close out the week. So thank you for listening to the Hockey, Ocast, streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network.