The Hockey PDOcast - End of Regular Season, and All-NHL Teams

Episode Date: April 17, 2024

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Thomas Drance to talk about how the final playoff spots in the East were decided. Then they put a bow on the regular season by highlighting the most impactful individual performances with their All-NHL teams. This podcast is produced by Dominic Sramaty. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the Hockey PEOCast. My name is Dimitri Filippovich, and joining me is my good buddy Thomas Trans. Thomas, what's going on, man? Not much. Looking forward to the end of the season, really don't like the incentives at this time of year. Watching two teams get backdoor eliminated by a coach who didn't realize that he'd already been eliminated, so he pulled his goalie fruitlessly. Is that really, like that, that felt like Oli Yokinin missing on a shootout attempted MSG to decide who made the playoffs, who missed the playoffs.

Like that felt like it's just not how it feels to me like it should be done. And then people will say, well, it's been so riveting for the last two weeks. It's like, first of all, it's mostly been bad hockey. It has. Secondly, the climax matters. Like, you don't watch Game of Thrones get to the final episode and be like, well, what an exciting ride, even though that made no sense. Well, you can still enjoy the steps along the way, though.

You can. I'm not saying I don't like Game of Thrones. but I'm saying the ending sucked and that changes how we talked about it. It should change how we talk about what's been, you know, apparently the most interesting pointy end of the season. And then I watch Vancouver, Calgary, and I've seen this Canucks team defend all season. Okay?

I've seen how they work, how they're bought in how rarely they trade chances off the rush. They played at all-star game pace. Yeah. In a game that clinched the division and also, you know, put that. them ahead of like Winnipeg for second in the conference, which matters not at all. But shouldn't it matter?

Shouldn't it matter? It should. You're coming in hot here. Well, it would if you had to play in, right? Like, you would if the reward was you're going to play a team that's had to play extra games if you finish second in the conference. Counterpoint, I don't need to see any of these teams playing extra games. I went on this random Monday show about the Penguins because like you could tell which

media members have actually been watching the games and which ones are just like looking at box scores and tweeting nostalgia stuff about Crosby. Yeah. But it's like, I've seen 82 games or 81 games of the Penguins right now. I'm good. Of them being bad on the power play. I don't need another one. There's been no adjustments.

It's literally been the same script every time. I'm good. Maybe if you haven't been watching this entire time, it would be fun to tune in. Fair enough. But I mean, there's still drama in Steph Curry losing to Sacramento. Like, there's still drama. But these are like good entertaining teams in the NBA that are generally playing. And they're just flawed or they've had injuries.

In this case, these are all bad teams that don't need to be playing extra games. The Hawks are playing the Bulls and the Eastern Conference played tonight. So I don't know. that that's true. But it kind of doesn't matter because, you know, even if you get wild St. Louis, right? And St. Louis advances. Yeah. And people will say, well, the West is a good argument against the plan. It's like most of the, well, the blues have enough team points that they want to qualify for the playoffs on the eastern side of the bracket. But, you know, if you play that out, right, it's kind of not about seeing the wild and the blues. It's, A, about the incentives that it would

create for all the other games that feel wasted for about 20% of the season. And B, it's about, you know, the, what would happen when L.A., Nashville, or Vegas, when one of them loses and then has to beat the blues to make the playoffs. That's the drama. The drama is, and if you can't beat the blues in a one game to get in, well, guess what? You're probably not winning the Stanley Cup anyway. So I'm not crying for you, not making the playoffs. The more you understand what the system would do and you, the more you understand how many minutes, games, fan-tick. it dollars go to waste with the NHL's current format. Once you see it, it's like a break glass thing.

It's just like something that's always annoying to me as we get into, you know, the last 20% of the season, which the NHL itself in a memo from the deputy commissioner during the pandemic admitted is not as telling as the first 69 games anyway. Nice. It was cinema. I enjoyed it. It was like a bad reality show where like you're just like, you just can't stop watching it. That was me with the past two Red Wings games where it's like this team's objectively not good.

Yeah. Yet there's something so captivating about them scratching and clawing against this Montreal Canadian team. Yeah, exactly. And then the sequence obviously last night, which you referred to off the top there where I went back and looked at it. I think two and a half minutes in real time passed between the Red Wings tying it up with seven seconds left or whatever. And then the flyers after multiple icings and the broadcast itself being like, oh no, Detroit scored. Oh, this couldn't have happened. Like, they were like catatonic.

They're so sad. The Flyers broadcast. And then Twitter rolls the goalie and eliminates the Red Wings and the Penguins. And then the Red Wings still have to play this overtime and shootout. There was a lot going on. It just ultimately was a colossal bag fumbling by the Penguins, the Flyers, the Red Wings. And I would even go so far as to say the Devils and the Sabres for somehow. Finishing behind those teams.

Finishing with less points than the Capitol. and their goal differential and the islanders and they're what, 16 overtime losses. Unbelievable. So I don't feel bad for any of these teams. Like they had plenty of opportunities to get in there. It's not about that.

It's just about the incentives of play. Let's talk Tortoella not knowing the game state really quickly. Right. Because I actually don't have a hot take about this so much as I find it bizarre that he wouldn't be clued in enough to react in real time. he's probably one of those few coaches where I would buy the argument that like he has his staff and everyone around him knows to leave him alone during the course of a game because he's like so intense well and I don't know that I have a problem with that so this is why I'm of two minds because on the one hand it feels wild to be that disconnected from something that impacts you like don't you want to know like it's it's more about the opposite right like if if you have a chance to do something like don't you want to know what's going on in those other three games that could impact you?

or these other two games. I feel like you need to know in making real time decisions at the end of the game. But on the other hand, I also think the way that hockey works, the way that it's such an effort-based, focused-based game.

You have to go 100% and just take care of your own business. Maybe you just have to take care of your own business and then learn that you get help or not afterwards. I mean, I don't know which one's right, but it just feels baffling to me that in the year 2024, two and a half minutes, like that's an eternity. making real-time decisions?

What if, and this is a realistic scenario, what if the Red Wings had scored? But then there was like an offside review that was taking like five minutes while the Flyers game was happening. That would have been. That would have really, that would have really combined all my least favorite things. It really would have. It was certainly dramatic. Yeah, I don't have any hot take on it either. I'm totally okay.

Like, it's obviously if I was a Red Wings or Penguins fan right now, on the one hand, I just said, like, you have no excuses because you had every opportunity to get enough points to make this playoff in the East and you didn't. So that's your own doing. I'd also be like very upset about the fact that this is the reason why I ultimately didn't get a chance to control my own destiny. From the Flyers perspective, I'm totally fine with just all you care about is your own team. I don't think there were any ulterior motives here about messing with like a geographical rival or anything. At the same time, though, I also think that if the shoes, if the shoes were on the other foot of the rules were reversed and like the Red Wings did this to the Flyers, we probably would have already gotten a John Jordan

Rela rant about how they disrespected the game and how they didn't play it the right way and all this stuff, right? Well, I think more than anything, if I was like an owner of a team, I'm not saying I'd have like a strong take or be mad at my coach or be disappointed, but I'd want to understand why,

like why do we do it this way? Can we do it better? Is there a reason we shouldn't try to do it better? Like I'd at least want to understand why. I think if I was like a, fan with authority watching those games the way owners are. I think we're definitely in agreement that there's not nearly enough. Like I had a mailback question last week about why no one seems to care about the president's

trophy. And like just generally, the NHL does not do nearly enough for a job of prioritizing regular season success and like valuing it and like incentivizing teams to care. Like, oh my eyes at this point is not nearly enough of a carrot in my opinion. Do you even hear like the Canucks clinched the Pacific Division yesterday and, you know, obviously the players should be proud like no one saw this coming it's a miracle season it's been pretty much fun

from front to back and you could hear it in them but every quote given about it is like it's not the main goal but yeah it's awesome or we're not satisfied but and it's like I think it should be okay we should normalize it being okay to find joy where you can yeah

especially after 82 games yeah and it's and it's a tough sport like you know this Kinnux teams played a lot of that don't matter at this time of year over the last few years, like clinching the Pacific Division in a points night at home, you know, sort of a celebration before the playoffs.

Like, that's cool. Everyone should get to enjoy that without qualification, or, like, the possibility of providing bulletin board material for, you know, trolls on Twitter and rival teams. Well, as a segue, after this impromptu, 10-minute cold-opening riff between you and I that I didn't really have planned, we're going to talk about, like, all NHLT, and kind of get into some award stuff.

In fairness, before the show, you said, we'll talk a little bit about last night. I was like, I was more so going to do it in passing, and then I like opened the door and you just burst through like the plane, man. So there's that. But yes, I do think we should take those victories. And also, like, this ties into all of this where I saw so many people. And unfortunately, like, people who I think have votes throughout the past week or two

being like, if the penguins make it, Sydney Crosby's got a very compelling MVP case. And this idea now that because T.J. Oshy scored in an empty netter in a 1-1 game when the Penguins weren't even playing that night, all of a sudden his 82 games became less valuable as a direct result of that is so hilariously, like, unthought out, in my opinion. I don't think there's any argument that Crosby has been even one of the top five or six most valuable players this season. Like this is a historic top-of-the-heart conversation. It's so wild.

How good. It's insane. Like the top six is unassailable, in my opinion. So that's not taking anything away from what he's doing, particularly with the context of almost being 37. Not that that applies to this award is impressive. You say the top six? You don't think it's the top four? No, I think the top six.

I'd throw, like, what Pastor Neck and Panarin have done in there? And we're going to talk about that in a second. It has been unbelievable. And it like isn't being given enough credit because their teams did well in the standings. But in my opinion, if you remove those guys, if they were just, less good, all of a sudden it would be like a house of cards for those teams in my opinion. Interesting. I would say, I would say I at least feel like once I get to Pasternack and Panarin, I start to

debate Quinn Hughes and Connor Hallibuck being in that mix as well. I don't know, man. Like Pastor Neck. You know, Hellebuck might have had the best goldening season given the offensive environment around the league that we've seen in 15 years 20 years. Loran Braswal also had like a 930 say percentage. Loran Braswold also had a 930% of the games he played. I just think what Pashtenac did given his linemates and given how much his game has evolved

too where he's not just a shooter anymore. Like he's funneling all the offense. How many clutch moments he has where you then look at who else is on the ice? Yeah, it's unbelievable. How is he getting away with this? I was telling you, I was like, oh my God. Like that one game in Edmonton, we were laughing about the day afterwards. It's like cycling around the puck and it's like, oh, it goes from foreboard to the brusk to Zach.

I'm like, what is happening? It was awesome. And I felt like the Bruins were going to score the entire time because David Passon and I kept touching it. You're not wrong. Okay, here's what I thought would be fun to do today. This is functionally our regular season wrap-up show. We're going to put a bow on the regular season before we switch gears and prepare for the playoffs later this week. I thought a fun and slightly different spin on things rather than just doing the usual sort of

heart nor is Calder all that stuff that I think people do as their regular season wrap-ups. And also it's tough for me to talk about because we're not supposed to talk about our votes. You aren't, but also I think a lot of them are generally pretty straightforward at this point

and honestly have been for a while for many of them except for the heart, I'd say. It's less compelling. It's just less compelling. Through the front door in that manner would be odd. But doing it through the back door in this manner. Totally on board.

It would be fun. So this is what we're doing. We're going to celebrate the best and most impactful individual performances this year by doing our all NHL teams. So three sets of them, let me just lay out of the criteria and then I'll jump in. I'm just really excited to talk about your choice

for third team left wing. Yeah, well, one left, one right, one center, one left defense, one right defense, one goalie. The only rule is no shenanigans. Well, there will be a shenanigans, but no positional shenanigans. It has to be a situation where the player regularly played in that slot.

And so that might have come up a few times and we'll see the legality of it. But I think that's something to keep in mind. Otherwise, I'll give you the floor here. Do you want to start with the first team? I thought the first team was rather easy, in my opinion. I actually have the most notes on the third team. So it's funny you make that joke about third team left wing because I feel like I've got 50 minutes worth of content on the third team if you want to just breeze through the first two.

But I'll give you the floor here to give me your first team. So I would bet. I would bet that we are identical. So let's do it as a check. Okay. And then we'll talk about the guys individually. Panarin McKininin-Kutcherow first line. That's right.

Do you want to give any notes on any of those? I've got lots of notes, but let's just, I just want to see if we have consensus. And then Hughes and Yosey. And then Helibuck. I think that's pretty, I think that's pretty. I didn't have a very tough time. I thought the center is going to be an interesting one because I think there's going to be between first and third. I really, I'm not saying.

in this just so the fan bases don't get mad at us, but there's really like the line between those three is thin, is so thin that if we were removing positional and we were just doing three forwards, I think you can make a very easy case of just those three centers. So a third line center in this case is not necessarily going to be third team. It's just positional requirement. I, at the end of the day, can't get over how. individually responsible for what the avalanche do as a five-man unit McKinnon is. When you watch it, it's just so apparent how much he's driving it.

And he's on the ice with three other superstars, which people can use his context to be like, wow, look at the, but watch it. Like, it's, it's him that makes it go at this clip that, you know, made the avalanche the most imposing team in the league at the top of their lineup. You know, and then you get to like the goals and some of the arguments for Matthews. And again, it's it's not, I don't want to like poke holes at like 70. I can't even imagine 69 goal season. It's like breaking my brain.

But the gap between them five on five is two goals. You know, like, yeah. McKinnon has only scored two fewer at five on five than Matthews has while recording, you know, 17 more total points. And it's not like it's not like the Leafs aren't good. You know, it's not like the Leafs don't have. high-level talent themselves. And then, you know, Connor McDavid, this is where you bump into the problem of, I'll never feel comfortable not having Connor McDavid at the top of my ballot because I think he's the best

player on the planet. Yes. And yet, you do have to capture like these, you know, arbitrary endpoints that are the start in the end of the regular season. I guess they're not that arbitrary. But, you know, that's sort of the dynamic. And just for me, those three are going to be the three centers here. I think you'd be, I think you'd have missed if, if they're not.

I actually think it's relatively fair to have them in any order you so choose, but for me, I thought there was a clear one. And it's McKinnon. Now, we should say you are actually going to like officially be doing these. You're not beholden to these picks. No, these are not. We're kind of talking through it. Yeah, this is a rough draft.

A rough draft of what I'm thinking, just to organize my thoughts. It's good. And we're basically recording a conversation that you and I would just be having anyways off air. So I thought it would be just good content. I also think I know this kind of, you might roll your eyes at this, but I do in this case really believe this. There's something to be said for McKinnon

because of his sort of like the force of personality but also playing style. Like the avalanche and part of this because they have a smart front office as well that's paying attention to this, have like molded their team in terms of everything they're trying to play and like their identity around him as well.

Like he's like, you know, with the pace and with the competitiveness and you hear players come in and they're talking about how hard they're practicing and all this stuff like this isn't necessarily if he had a significantly worse

statistical campaign than someone I wouldn't be like yeah but he's doing this stuff because like all right I need to see that actually tangibly on the ice but this is just sort of further reinforcing his value to the organization

not that the other guys don't but it just it's so clear when you watch them like everything revolves around him regardless of how awesome Miko Randin and Akil Makar right like he's just bringing everyone along for the ride

with him. He's just got it all. Like he's, he's, his case is the most unassailable in that he actually leads in points. Also most well-rounded, right? Because a lot of these other ones, you could poke like one kind of hole or it's like, oh, well, this is how they lag behind. And he sort of got all those boxes check. And they're all like kind of unfair. Yeah. You know, of course. But it's, so it's like the, the Matthews goal totals or the, or the, you know, McDavid total points. It's like, those would be really compelling, like, it would be a really compelling argument if there was both of those guys, if it was a two horse race. But then they, there's the guy who kind of checks all the boxes.

So I do think that well-roundedness is a big part of this. With that being said, though, Kuturov here, I want to, because there are, I think, the most out of these guys in the top of our heart conversation, there's the most arguments against him are kind of poking holes in the season he's having. And I just wanted to note how hollow all of those are for me. So I've seen his season get described as a byproduct

of being a power play merchant, which is hilarious to me, because the only reason the lightning are first in the league, scoring over 11 powerplay goals per hour with the man-inage, is exclusively because of Nikita Kutrov. Like, everything runs through him. This isn't a matter of when a defenseman's on the ice on a top power play, right? And it's like, they might be good. They might be distributing or quarterbacking well atop of the umbrella, but they'd still probably be effective even without them.

Like, in this case, there is no lightning power play without Nikita Kutrov. You know what I mean? like if you took him and put him on that penguin's power play they were just laughing out of the start of the show I don't without point and stamp goes and headman even maybe maybe they wouldn't be the first in the league but I can guarantee you they would not be 31st or whatever they are right now right and so this isn't like when people say oh well imagine crosbie's points if he was on an effective power play and then being like oh well kuturov his season's not as impressive point wise because so much it was in the power play that's not they're not making the argument you think you are like the reason why

why he's scoring so much on the power plate is because of his greatness. That actually further reinforces the argument for him. That's why they're so good. Five-on-five, I've also seen, oh, well, his goal shares only plus six at five-on-five compared to some of these other guys who have been better at five-15. The lightning are up six goals with him on the ice of five-15 without him. They've been outscored 114 to 86. This team is getting rocked without him. So the fact that he's a plus five-on-five player is actually impressive. Yeah, that's Quinn Hughes last year numbers. It is.

And then quality of teammates, this one's less been made because I think everyone gets the gap between him and everyone else. But I just wanted to note that he has a point on 50.3% of the team's goals this season. 23 games with 3 or more points, 13 games held off the score sheet. I mean, it's just, it's comical what he's doing from a production perspective. He, I think it's hard to understand. I know he's like won the heart trophy, right? So somehow I feel like he's a little bit underrated because of the subtlety of the way he controls the game. We're used to it looking a certain way.

We're used to it being a centerman. You know, we're used to it being maybe a little more defensive. But the way that he has games on a string, he has as much control as anyone in this league, you know, on a game-to-game basis. It's, you know, part of what makes guys like Quinn Hughes special to bring him up. a lot, but it's because, you know, I think that that profile, just like, they're doing it in a non-traditional way, but their ability to, to exert gravity over where the game is played, how it's played, and ultimately how goals are created and denied is just through the roof, even if it's something I think we sort of struggle to fit into, like, our usual template, and it

causes them to get overlooked. Like, you know, I thought Kuturov should have won the Kahn-Smith. for the first Tampa Bay Stanley Cup. Like I actually thought it was pretty clear. And then the ballots came out. Hadman was ridiculous that year. I'm not criticizing the panel. I just like was shocked when it came out and I was the only Kutrault

voter. Yeah. I mean, he's ridiculously good. Do you have any notes on the defense team? Because I do think, I think Hughes and Yose is going to be consensus one, two in Norris voting. Well, I think they'll be, I'm sure McCar will get his fair share of votes.

I guess. I mean, the way Yose came on in these final 30 or so games, like helping drive the Preds run in the second half. I mean, he was phenomenal. Yeah, I don't think he's going to steal the Norris, but I do think he's going to be a strong second. No, I mean, and I said this like Hughes decided locked up, and then there's like, oh, it's stupid that it's been locked up for this long

as if, like, the final 30 games don't matter. But the logic there is Hughes has been this good all year. And just because his points came down a little bit, As you and I have talked about, it's not necessarily reflective of his play getting worse. If anything, I think he's been even more dominant and impressive within the context of the team. They just stopped scoring on every single shot they took, which was going to happen regardless. But he's been his gravity, as you mentioned, and also just like what they look like when he's out there controlling a shift in the offensive zone versus what they look like when anyone else is is so night and day. With the possible exception of Connor Carlin.

That I actually reject the notion that he has more help than certain other. defensemen atop this list. Just because they've scored a lot of goals, I actually, I think that's an argument for Quinn Hughes. Like the reason they've scored so many goals is because he's on this team, not because they otherwise have so many offensive weapons. I know J.T. Miller and Lace Patterson, a ton of points, Brock Besser, 40 goals, all that. None of this exists without Quinn Hughes being the best defenseman in the league.

The, I mean, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of Canucks players having career years or who have fundamentally flipped the narrative around themselves, right? You think about, you know, Philip Peronick and what he's been able to do. You think about J.T. Miller's two-way. I mean, everyone like Joshua, like, you go on down the line, like every. For sure. But, but, you know, with Joshua anyway, obviously he plays better with Quinn Hughes,

but that line has at least been able to drive play relatively consistently without Hughes out there. Yeah. Whereas, you know, both of Vancouver's top six centermen as an example, right? Like if you look at Pedersen with and without Hughes, um, you know, Pedersen's actually been outscored in the minutes without Hughes, right?

The, the J.T. Miller goes from a 56% shot attempt differential to a 46% with or without Hughes. Um, Hironic, the splits are even more dramatic. So I think, I think Hughes is so impactful that it has really created an environment where, where this team has been able to,

uh, a lot of good things with a lot of individual contributors um firing at a level that they haven't previously hit yep and connor halibuck i think what's impressive is that he's played 60 games for third straight season like that's so rare and i know a couple other goals have done it but just that consistency without any drop off and play throughout obviously a great defensive environment but he's been phenomenal and so clear goalie picked there all right let's take our break here tom and then we come back second block of the show is going to be second and third

team and maybe we'll talk a few like actual awards and all that good stuff. If you're listening to the Hockey Piedo guest streaming on the Sports Day Radio Network. Hey, it's Dan Ritcho and Satyar Shah. Join us for Canucks Central where we will set up the game and break down the latest around the Canucks. 4 to 6 p.m. and post game on SportsNest 650 and wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we're back here on the Hockey PEDEOCast. Join by Thomas Drance. We are doing our all-N-HL teams as an exercise to

wrap up the regular season and start looking ahead towards the playoffs. Tom, this is where it gets interesting. We are both in consensus for our first team. I suspect we'll start having a few differences here along the way. Maybe it'll show up more so on the third team. But give me your second team. We can go one at a time or you can list it all off and then we can work our way through it. I would not be shocked if we are in accordance here.

And I want a spotlight that I thought four of these were relatively straightforward. and then I really struggled with the second defenseman. I've got two that I think are straightforward, and then I'm even surprised when I started working on it. You do the check, this time. Like you do the check. You tell me your team and all. Second team center, I got Austin Matthews.

Me too. I just think, as you mentioned, 69 goals could still get 70 before we record or after we record this. Elite defensive impact, his play off the puck. You watch him just what an absolute animal he is in every single puck battle. He's so physically assertive. Crazy. Also, his chance creation is just like, he's just at least like five or six scoring chances every

single game because no one can handle him down low around the net, but also he's so good at getting open in the high slot that it just, it's impossible regardless of what your defensive game plan is. And he's got the, uh, he's got the Sydney Crosby gene where you can't send him a bad pass. Like his ability to just control the environment. Right. In the area.

Maneuver it to his advantage. It's wild. Yeah. And then, yeah. The other thing, the other thing that you just, I noticed when I watch him live and I wish I had a chance to watch him live more because it jumps off the ice to me when I watch him live and I just don't notice it the same way on TV is how he'll like read how he reads the play and anticipates like he will he almost does it disrespectfully and I don't mean that as like

he's disrespecting his opponents but he'll be like that defenseman is going to try and send a puck up the wall and he won't even like go for check he'll just go to where the puck is going right it's when I when I watch him play live I'm stunned by how many times that happens in a game and I think it's an incredibly rare quality oh you know what I'll say what you didn't want to say I think he he disrespects the opponents in the best way possible I don't think it's sorry I think he targets defenders who cannot keep up with him anyway in any of the stuff and he just seems to have a sense of what his opponents are thinking is what I mean and yeah it's I think it's a good thing don't don't shy away from it we need a little we need a little more

a little more juice in the game. Fair enough. David Pasternak is right wing. As I said, I think he's firmly, obviously, not necessarily top four, but he's like in, closer to that than anyone else is. Left wing, I thought was straightforward. Who did you have left wing? Philip Forsberg.

Okay, I had it. I was worried there, because I didn't think it was necessarily that big of a lock. Between him and Carrel Caprizov? Yeah. I struggled with it, too. I just thought that the winning, I understand he's got significantly more help, but like, When it's that close, I just think, like, when you're trying to capture this season, I think I will remember Philip Forsberg setting the franchise record and goals,

pushing Yossi's points record, like, everything he did and how cool it was. I think I'll remember that. And so I think that gave him this like that. There's a certain amount of joyfulness that has to factor into. Of course. And we'll get into this in the third team because Caprizov's, I felt like the McDavid thing, where if I feel weird leaving McDavid off the top of my ballot, I feel weird leaving him off the second team.

because he is the best. But, you know, capturing this season for the wild and capturing this season for Caprizov, it just didn't feel like he was breaking games the way that he has in the past. And yet he was. It's just that the team wasn't as good to give him as many opportunities to...

Certainly early in the year. I just think he, like, wasn't fully healthy. He wasn't. Second half he's been really, really good. But it was a bit too late a bit. I think at the end of the day, if you asked me who's the second best left wing in the sport, my answer is Kareil Kavrizov,

but who's on my second team, it's Philip Forsberg. I mean, it's also fitting that we went like Matthews Forsberg here, if I'm going to like center or left because they're just like physical dominance. Yeah. In a way, with the school scoring ability is just so cool. And again, it revolves so much around speed now. Like there's like throwback power forwards. Yeah.

And that's kind of awesome, I think. So I had that. Okay, let's get into the D now. Okay. I agonized over the, I agonized over whether or not one of these guys should be second or third team. Okay. I've settled on, I fitfully settled on Macar with Bouchard.

Well, both guys play right side. So do Yossi and Hughes, no? Both lefties. I don't have to go LDRD, do I? I'm pretty sure Yosey's been playing the right side. Fair enough, but I still don't think I have to go LDRD. I thought that was part of the argument here, otherwise. Is it?

Yeah. Oh, well, I didn't fill out my first one with that in mind. but that's okay because the guy who I struggled to leave off the lefties so I can yeah he'll see he's been playing with McDonough okay so he's on the right side at the moment yep but so you you're sorry I didn't realize LDRD was part of that's what I was trying to do just because I think it gets you in some interesting spots okay well that's fine I'm happy I'm right that's fine that's fine I mean we're gonna talk about both guys like obviously I had both guys on my list I had McCarre third team because I went blue shard second team right and as my second team left I went Josh Morrissey who I've come along with

with because like he's been awesome two years ago there was like or i don't know for a couple years ago remember he just like so much money left on his deal after the exodus of defensive talent on that team he had to do like too much with no help and he really struggled and i was like man this is rough yeah and last year he really came on and this year he's been phenomenal like him and de mello as a pair are just unbelievable and he plays so much too he's second in the league in five-on-five ice time with great results and then everything he does offensively for that team with no real like parallels either. A lot of these guys obviously, like, they're the guy on their team in that regard, but for him, like, he has to activate and, like, pinch and create and join the rush, like,

so much more than any other defensemen they really have that's comfortable doing so. So I just, I've been really impressed every time I watch him play. I really like that pick. If I have to sneak someone onto my second team on the left side, um, on my, he's on my third team. Wait till you hear my third team left side. Well, it's, it's good stuff. Well, that's not, it'll spoilers. I'm sorry. I'm just saying if I have to let's wait. I honestly thought long and hard. about going Forsling Bouchard. That's how

dominant I think forsling has been throughout this season. I like your Morrissey pick by the way. He's been a ton of fun to watch and that Morrissey-Demello pair like the way that the Jets

are just absolutely picking their teeth with opponents and outscoring them in those minutes is wild. Yeah. Wild. So Evan Bouchard, I thought my personal hero,

Bob Stauffer, who I just, I'm so obsessed. Every time he comes on the broadcast. He's a lovely dude. I'm like, Tom, Bobsoffers on the broadcast, tune in, doing the Leo DiCaprio sitting up from my couch pointing at the screen. I love him.

He had this, I think, rant on his show about how, like, these are the types of defensemen that I think have, like, the biggest blind spot for people who just, like, can't resolve seeing them when they make a bad play. Right. Right? It's like if there's a turnover or they get a turnstile, that's what resides in your mind. Like, Eric Carlson's career, essentially. Yeah.

And then you ignore or you weigh that over the 10 other awesome things they do, generally with the puck, that like help their team win and outscore the opposition. But you're just like, ah, but he just looked so bad on that one play. Yeah. And I think that's the only argument against Bouchard. It's like you can't help yourself because you've seen him make a bad play. I guarantee you it's a massive net positive.

Yeah. I also think it's hard for lankier defensemen to have. people be forgiving of their mistakes. I don't know what it is, but it's just something about the way it looks when a large defenseman, like did you see the play against the coyotes? It was just a bounce.

Like it honestly wasn't even a misplay, but where it was the coyotes game on the Friday night and he just deflects the, it's like a little shoot and he deflects it over the glass. And it's like truly just unlucky could happen to anyone, but the way it looked like how hard and far he had to stretch to make contact with the puck. Combersome.

Yeah, cumbersome, exactly. It just looks different. Yeah, when they're his. his mistakes, but that team, I mean, I thought when they got Ekholm, yeah, he's been perfect for him. I've been perfect for him, but I thought it was Ekholm carrying that pair. No, I think it's just like a nice meshing of talent and responsibilities. Yeah, I'm very confident over the course of the season watching that team,

especially as they figured it out defensively in the second half, stopped kind of playing pond hockey. I thought it became very apparent his value to that team, How much the game is different when he's on the ice versus when he's not? I mean, every one of his shares for goal shots, chances, expected goals is in the 60s at 5-on-5. Now, obviously, he plays a ton with McDavid, I believe. He plays those two guys over 60% together, similar with McCarie McKinnon, and that's just the way team should be operating.

Put your two best players together in that way. But, yeah, I think he's been phenomenal. And then a goalie, I've got Thatcher Demko, because I just think no one has otherwise distinguished themselves. And 50 games is enough for me. I know he missed a bunch of time, but you look at the rest of the game. workload, it's like, that's plenty. I don't think it's close. Yeah.

I actually, I actually think as much as Hellebuck is in a tier of his own this season in net, I think Demko is likewise in a tier of his own with sort of a larger, more debatable. And I'm curious to see who you picked for third team. But the, but I think the, I think there's clear separation between Hellebuck and everyone else and between Demcoe and everyone else beneath him. Like, he's been so, so good every time he's. been in net this season. He really has. Okay, third team.

Now we're going to get into some disagreement. So we have McDavid at center, obviously. I want to talk third team left wing because that's, yeah, McDavid at center, rantin in it right wing. Those are the easy ones. Did you not go around? I had Ryan Hart on mine. Oh, did you? I like that. I just thought that similar to what we just said about Matthews, obviously on a much smaller scale and that's why he's a third line wing

as opposed to second center above McDavid in this list. But 57 goals, I think he's second on. Dom Selkielist and I wouldn't go that far but like he's got legitimate defensive utility and juice for this team as well beyond just the goals and like the partnership between him and Barkov and how good they've been at 515 and on the PK and everything he's done like I just it's such a well-rounded campaign and part of it you're right like sometimes we unfairly judged players because this is such a step up for him so I'm just so impressed by it whereas rantan in after the year he had last year, you kind of just take it for granted and you come to expect it. So maybe I'm,

that's kind of one of my biases there. But yeah, I had Ryan Hart, I just wanted to like recognize the season you had slightly above what Randin did both guys obviously outrageously good. Yeah, I really like it. Like I, I have made a note on my list to take a closer look before, before fleshing out my ballot. But I just think, I mean, my logic in picking Rantan is just, I mean, Guy's so good. I mean, he's, yeah, he's one of the best shooters and passers in one of the biggest frames in the league. That's a pretty handy skill set to have.

And, well, and, you know, he's, I mean, Pastor Nex, the only right wing in the league that outscored him. Yeah. Five on five. He did it by five total points, granted with a fair bit less help. Nothing overheated in Ranton's profile. And I can never get over watching him. the way he holds his stick, like well in front of his body, the way that you sometimes see like Connor Garland do,

like really little guys, like smaller guys, play the same way. And it makes him such an effective passer, but I've never seen someone his size do it. Like I've never seen, I mean, you occasionally got it out of guys like Bertuzi, like, but it's such a rare attribute.

And the fact that he can protect the puck, the fact that he has that much control, the fact that he's just so unique to me. And, you know, I just felt at the end of the day was the third best right wing. But I will reexamine. No, him shortening up on the stake is incredibly cool. And also him having a monster game and then immediately proceeding to call out and his dad was also very cool. That was very cool. And so I just think, yeah, unbelievable player. Caprizov, as we mentioned, what he's done.

in the past 35 games. Did you have a prezo? I had him second. I had him third left way. So I struggled with this one. Who are you considering? I was considering Kachuk. Yep.

Because, you know, I think he still ends up, what, top five among left wings and scoring, despite the fact that he had like some of the most miserable 10 week run of bounces that I've seen

all year. While also like obviously getting healthier, right? Totally. Yeah. But just a testament to his impact. His two-way impacts through the roof. And honestly, at the end of the day,

I was really leaning toward and wanting to vote for Jason Robertson. You know, I do think partly the exercise of coming up with three teams is to tell the story of the year. Yep. And for me, Dallas doesn't have anyone else that's going to make the ballot. But that kind of tells you the story, though, doesn't it? A little bit. A little bit. But Robertson, you know, I know Rope is the main driver on that line, but Robertson's size defensive reliability.

You know, I do think he captures a lot of what has made Dallas such a tough opponent, even though he's at the top of the lineup, and it's really their rush scoring depth that makes them so dangerous. So I was sort of agonizing between Robertson, Caprizov, and Kachuk, and I sort of settled on Robertson, but not feeling great about it. Also love to have a disappointing 80-point offensive season as well. Very nice. With defensive value.

Yeah, he's been really good. Yeah, I'm. I think the Kachuk one is interesting. I felt I rewarded or leaned towards rewarding Reinhardt and Foresling here, as we're going to talk about in a second. And it pained me so much not to have Barkov on this list, just because you couldn't justify it with the three centers. But the way this team has played defensively,

and to my McKinnon point earlier, if you want to talk identity, like the whole, after every single whistle, we're going to engage you in a shoving match and someone's going to get a penalty, and we're just going to throw you off your game. Like, that's Matthew. you could chalk.

You know, I do think one guy also who I think would have had a really strong candidacy if he hadn't become a right wing this year would be Zach Hyman. I feel like the Oilers next year should just put Zach Hyman on the left side for line rushes only so that he can, so that he can compete in this category at his natural position. Yeah. I saw Ranton Hymann. I had Willie Neelander in consideration. Yeah, me too.

Jonathan Marsh is so, just because he scored so many big goals and, like, they've needed every single one of them. Like, they would not make the playoffs without him. And Nick Laillers, I had a note with the right coach should have been under consideration. But alas, on a permanent basis, certainly. So third team defense, I think we both have Foresling. We have Foresling and Macar. You're right. So I have Foresling and Fox because I had Macar on the... Yeah, the defense was tough because of the left right wing.

Like I wound up, Doughty, Dobson, Fox, and Miro. I considered my shenanigans that I mentioned earlier, like Miro playing on his strong side. I could have had him on this list potentially. Yeah. But he plays right deep. Yeah, see, I just didn't worry about it, but I only ended up with one guy,

uh, lying about one guy. I've got McCar on the left side. Here's the thing. I'm a man of my word. And I said on the show earlier this season that if anyone gives love to Foreslay in the end of season awards, I'm going to respond with a you know puck to them. And so I had to live up to my word and have him on this list because otherwise I'd be a hypocrite.

I can't be talking up, go step forwards and then not have him as my third team left shot. I also think he deserves it. I mean, especially when you consider the what, month long absence of Ekblad and Montour at the start of the season, that should give him narrative heft the way that the, I mean, what? He's like one of five to five players to be plus 50 in the last 20 years. And I know plus minus sucks, but. Yeah, we're going to edit that out. in post. No, but it shows up in the better stats too.

Shows up in the on ice goal differential stats too. It's just ludicrous. He played the most minutes on a team that actually just surprised me because I thought the Jets had it locked up on the team that has given up the few his goals against on a permanent basis of the season, the Florida Panthers. He played the most minutes for them. And here's two stats. I tweeted one yesterday, which people loved.

450, five on five minutes of Barakov and Forrestling this season. Yeah. 450 minutes. They gave up nine goals. They're up 32 to 9. At 515. The other team also has the same number as Gators. And then overall, they're giving up 1.5 goals against per hour with him on the ice of 5.15.

It's just like you had to recognize the fact that their best defensemen on a team that's top two or three in every single defensive metric needs to be on this list in my opinion. Otherwise, what are we doing with this award? I mean, that Barkov Foresling stat, that's like retro Chara Bergeron stuff. Yeah. You know, and then it would be like, they'd been on the ice for three goals against it, five on five the whole season, and you'd go look at it and they were all bounces. Yeah. You know, it's like, I mean, it's a ludicrous level of control. Except Worsling's doing it without cheating.

Hey, yo. No, no, no one else in the NHL had as good a ratio. of goals for versus goals against when they were on the ice this season. If you want to outscore your opponent, Forzling's your guy and that contract is an absolute I don't know. Those analytics are too convoluted for me, goals for and against. Yeah, I know you're right. I don't know if I can get around that.

If you want to outscore your opponent, Forzling is your best guy. And McCar, listen, like, on the one hand, I think clearly didn't have his best season, was hurt for a bunch of it, even though when he was playing, didn't have the same juice still. 21 goals, 89 points, and 76 games. The stuff he can do physically, just no one else really can at the position. And I just think he's still there. And it kind of speaks to the standard he's set early in his career that this is sort of viewed as like a bit of a down season because of health.

Yeah. So. Yeah, it was a bizarre season for him, I thought, just in terms of you'd watch it and it felt a little less Batman and Robin, or it felt a little more Batman and Robin between McKinnon and McCar, whereas in some previous seasons it felt more like two Batman's or Superman versus Batman. I don't know. I have DC Comics. Who cares? Right. I put Adam Fox, Adam Fox filled out my ballot. And, you know, similarly missed a bunch of time, came back, struggled for a little bit, and then has been Adam Fox. And then it's been Adam Fox again, yeah. And, you know, I think

obviously Fox and McCar are both phenomenal players, but this wasn't the year where they were at the top of their game. You know, for me, Yossi, Bouchard, Hughes have just been at a different level all year. And I think that's clear, but that doesn't mean that Fox hasn't been remarkable, especially and especially from like February on once his health started to return. 13 goalie. I don't know. Who cares?

I actually have a take here. I picked Swamen. Oh, look at that. Look, I'm showing you my list right now. I wrote goalie options. I wrote Markstrom and Bennington. And then under I wrote. my heart, and I circled it, I wrote Jeremy Swayman.

Yeah, I think Swayman's the guy. Honestly. The problem is, is O-Mark's numbers are so comparable. I know. That, like, statistically, it's tough to argue, but I hate to pull the O-L-I test here. Especially with goalies. I know, of course. But you watch, there's something about it, man.

Like, even that game where they just, like, decided not to show up and a big reason why Washington made the playoffs is the second, the last game, they just had nothing. They had, like, eight shots on goal through, like, the first. 50 minutes of the game. Yeah. And every capital shot was like a high danger chance. And Swayman was just like so effortlessly just absorbing everything.

I'm like, man, this guy is something else right now. I just thought Swamen. Swamen was the goalie who I'd watch the most this season and be like, oh, the game's over. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, they're not scoring on him tonight. I just thought he was the most dominant presence in the net, not named Demko or Hellebuck this season.

So for me, I, you know, I looked through it. I considered it. I think you're right, Bennington, and those guys are the right guys to consider. Maybe you could throw some love at Joey DeCord if you felt like it. But for me, Swayman was three, and I actually think there's an argument for that to be clear, even if the stats don't necessarily back it up. Now, we're going to have you on plenty during the postseason. Do you have a cons my pick here that you want to throw?

Ooh. I'm going to go with Rope Hints. I'm scared of the Dallas Stars. That's fair. But how much time do we have time for me to bring up something or no? We have three minutes. Three minutes? Okay.

I just want to talk about the interesting sort of dynamic that we're seeing in the Western conference right now with sort of two things happening all at once. And I'm curious to get your take on it. So on the one hand, you've got, whether it's Vancouver, Dallas, Vegas, obviously, is sort of the originator of this. you know, even Colorado with Manson and Jack Johnson on the back end, you've got

sort of these kind of similar builds where there's just a ton of size on the back end going into the playoffs. But that sizes on pairs, two and three. And meanwhile, sort of quietly over the span of three or four years, accelerating this season, you know, Avs trade for Taves,

and all of a sudden, instead of having Graves with Macar or Graves type, shut down big-bodied defensemen, you unlock more touches for him with a more transitional defender. Now you've got the same in Vancouver with Hughes-Seronek and finally Dallas sort of unlocked listening to you. One of your great takes because I was Thomas Harley-Skeptic, but Harley-Haskenen has really, I think, added, you know, even... Totally changed your trajectory. Totally changed it.

And I'm curious for your thoughts on, like, teams seem to recognize that at the top of the lineup against the most skilled guys, you are best off having an elite puck mover paired with a guy who can keep up with them in terms of the transition game. And yet the logic of that has not yet filtered down to other parts of the lineup. Are they, is that right? Is it more important to have size against sort of the bottom end? Or are these teams leaving opportunities on the table by not applying the lessons from the top pair further down lineup? Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's going to change because

we're having it. We're going to see like, there's no real net front guys anymore. The net front guys are the best players you're going to be playing against and they're kind of weaving in and out. They're not just standing in front of the net. So having a big defenseman to cross-checked

and the kidneys repeatedly is not really a thing anymore. I just think it's going to change a lot. But maybe those are the players who are a bit, like the higher the skill, the more expensive, the tougher to acquire. So it makes sense that you'd have these sort of like journeymen, veteran bruising defensemen or your third pair

because they're just so replaceable. You can just get them for cheap and put them in there, as opposed to, like, trying to find the next Devon Taves, where I know the HAVs got them at a hilarious discount price, but it's theoretically, I guess, a tougher player archetype to find. Right. So you think it's more scarcity than... I think so.

I think so. I just think there's not enough because... And this is a whole other conversation about, like, development for young defensemen and stuff, but they just are not... It's like quarterbacks in the NFL. There are just not enough good defensemen to go around. Oh, I think it's more like tight ends than the NFL.

Oh, you can just... I think you just find any cast-off NCAA basketball player and put them in there. I think in this case, it's just tough. There's not enough defensemen. It's such a tough job. Yeah, although you go watch youth hockey these days as I did in the Okinaug in the other day, and it's like the way that 13-year-old defensemen, the size of 13-year-old defensemen relative to their teammates and the way they play the game,

it's going to change in a hurry here. Yeah. Okay, Tom, we're going to get out of here. My plugs are everyone who follow Thomas Drans on Twitter. Check out your work at The Athletic. Listen to Canucks Talk. to have you on plenty during the playoffs to talk about the Canucks and all that good stuff. Join the Discord. In my link is in the show notes. And that's all. Next time you hear from us,

we'll be doing our round one previews. So I'm so excited about that. Thank you for listening to us here on the Sports Night Radio Network.