The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 107: Top 10 Centers

Episode Date: October 17, 2016

Andrew Berkshire joins the show to help construct a list of the top 10 players currently playing the center position in the NHL. Here’s a quick rundown of the topics covered: 3:30 Number 10 6:30 Number 9 8:30 Number 8 10:30 Number 7 and Number 6 17:30 Numbers 5, 4, and 3 23:30 Number 2 30:00 Number 1 32:30 Honourable Mentions This episode is brought to you by Freshbooks, an online accounting service designed to save time and help avoid all of the stresses that come with running a small business. They’re currently offering a free 30-day trial to listeners of our show at Freshbooks.com/PDOcast (just remember to enter “Hockey PDOcast” in the ‘How You Heard About Us’ section). Every episode of this podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Stitcher and can also be streamed straight from this website. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews of the show are greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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To claim it, just go to freshbooks.com slash PDOCast and enter HockeyPedioCast in the how you heard about a section. That's freshbooks.com slash PEDEOCast. Regressing to the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Philipovich. Welcome to the Hockey PEDYOcast. My name is Demetri Philipovich. And joining me is my good buddy Andrew Berkshire. Andrew, what's going on, man? Not much, Dimitri.

Excited to talk to you this morning? Yes. We've been planning on this one for a while. you've been doing some great work on Sportsnet, releasing your lists of top tens. I know that people out there love lists for whatever reason. I guess it's easy to kind of consume and then come back with your own. They're generally pretty subjective, so they kind of, they warrant good conversation and good back and forth amongst hockey fans.

Yeah, they're good conversation starters and good rage inducers, I think, as well. Yes. Yeah, why isn't my player higher than he is on your list? I'm sure a common thing that you got from these. Well, absolutely. And as I explained to everyone, if your favorite player wasn't on my list or wasn't high enough on my list, it's because I hated you personally and your team especially. Yes. That's a good way to look at it. So we're going to start off with centers and we'll see how it goes. If we run long, we'll break this off into another podcast. But we're going to start off with down the middle, which makes sense because looking at the list, the players to choose from here, I mean, you did a top 20. And it was tough cutting it off at 10 because I made like a short list of honorable honorable mentions below.

And there are some pretty good players on there. So we're definitely not short on talent here. Yeah, centers in defense are the two positions where it's like the toughest competition. It's just even like at 20, I was like, man, this guy's not in there. This guy's not in there. It's like Matt DeShane didn't make my top 20. Stephen Stamco's didn't make the top 20 by the numbers. Those were like crazy omissions to me.

but it's just the way it worked out. So if you could do it all over again, would you put Austin Matthews at number one? Obviously. I don't know. Like, it's tough to say that he's not going to be top 20 this year after that performance. Like, I don't know what it is about the start of this year, but like, do you remember last year being anywhere close to starting with that kind of excitement?

Like, it seems like every young player, the first two days of the season, scored in their debut. Yeah. It's incredible. Yeah, yeah, it's been really fun to watch and we desperately needed it. I feel like all of last season in general was pretty slow and I forget how long it took, but I guess a few weeks in we were all kind of having that debate about increasing goal scoring and how we can make the game funner.

So we definitely weren't at this point. Yeah, no bigger net to talk yet. Yes, thank God. So one kind of caveat I did want to mention was that I did include Connor McDavid on mine just because I felt that it would be weird. to make this list without including him just because he is such an amazing talent. But I know that you didn't include him in yours just because of the kind of sample size and just not really knowing where to kind of include him on that list because of that,

which is totally fair. I just want to kind of announce that discrepancy in our list before we get started. Yeah, although I'm going to change my list a little bit from what I had on Sportsnet, and I'm also going to include Connie McDavid because it's impossible to not. Okay, so let's go with, let's start off, let's count down from 10, one. Since you're the guest, I'll let you start off and we'll kind of go back and forth and see where we agree and where we have our differences.

All right. You want to start 10 and then 10? Yeah. Go just go 10. Maybe list off the first guy there and then we'll get going. All right. My 10th best center in the league is Jonathan Taves. Ooh.

I had, I had met as an honor will mention just missing the cut, which just says a lot about this list and how good the players are. But I can, I feel like people can kind of kind of get a little. carried away with the Jonathan Taves hate just like they can with the Drew Doughty stuff where it's like, you know, we get this intangibles talk and leadership stuff shoved down our throat so much by the older school mainstream media. I guess both you and I are technically mainstream media now that we work with SportsNad, but the older school mainstream media where

they talk about all this stuff these guys do and how it makes them the best. And we kind of, it's our nature to push back a little bit. And sometimes we can kind of get carried away and And it can kind of come off as, oh, we think that Jonathan Taves actually sucks, but really, he doesn't. He's pretty good at hockey. Yeah, I totally agree. And, like, that's, like, the kind of thing that, I don't know if it's unique to the internet or what, but it seems like if, whenever you're comparing two guys, if you say one guy's better, the assumption is the other guy is terrible. And, you know, like, there's a big push of Jonathan Taves being better than Crosby for the last couple years now. And the analytics community being like, no, no, no, that's ridiculous.

was seen as saying Taves is terrible. Well, obviously, TAVs is not terrible. You know, like anybody who watches them play knows that, but he's also not the best player

in the world. And I think that's pretty readily apparent. And, like, I asked a question during the World Cup on Twitter, who was better Jonathan Taves or Patrice Bergeron. And there was such this,

like, huge split, almost 50-50 of, like, people who were heavily into stats and people who weren't. And, like, it's weird because

Taves is a great analytics player too, but everybody who was into the numbers was going Bergeron and everybody who wasn't was going Taves completely on intangibles. But like, does anybody think that Patrice Bergeron doesn't have good intangibles? Yes. So weird. Yeah, it's pretty weird. So I had Claudeau uru as 10 on my list. And I think that might be a little surprising to some people, not that, you know, that we think the Claudeau was really good. I just, I don't know, I'm just a huge fan of his game and I feel like it's weird to me a little bit that he, doesn't necessarily get the love that he deserves considering the market he plays in and how

exciting a brand of hockey they play. But for whatever reason, it feels like he kind of slips under the radar a little bit. So I had him just barely making my list. But honestly, like, the difference between him and the four or five guys that just missed the cut was so close that it was pretty much like a subjective, just kind of coin flip. Yeah. And I think that's something that is important to bring up. Like once you get to a certain point, especially for like centers or defensemen, there's like five or six guys that are basically tied. So you're just like, choosing the guy that you like most. I like this guy a little bit more. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, okay, who do you have, let's go number nine? I have number nine on my original list, it was Tyler

staying in, but I bumped down Ryan Getslaff to number nine. And the reason why is simply, like, I'm thinking more towards who is going to be better and Gets Laff is a little bit older. So I bumped him down a little bit. But man, physically dominant guy, he's not the fastest skater, but he gets everything done somehow. His hockey sense is just ridiculous, insane playmaker, and when he does decide to shoot, which is rare,

that shot's like top 10 in the league, his wrist shot, it's just incredible. So I think he's a guy who can just do everything. And for whatever reason, he doesn't really get a lot of credit for his defensive play, but that guy is an incredible defensive hockey player. Yeah, no, he definitely is. He's sort of, right,

he's involved in everything. He's got his hand involved in it. everything that the ducks do. And I think it's cool the way as careers progressed, because I remember for a while there in sort of the late 2000s, I don't know, I don't want to say necessarily say that he was struggling, but he was definitely missing a lot of time with injuries it felt like. And I feel like his career could have gone a different way,

but he's really been pretty healthy since then and just been amazing. And him and Corey Perry have obviously been, I think, what, like one of the best three or four one, two punches in the league since then. So it's, listen, you don't have to sell me on Ryan Gets Laugh. I'm pretty high on him. I have him eight and I have Tyler Sagan, nine. So I'm kind of right there with you in terms of those two guys being, like I could have easily had Sagan 8 and gets Laph 9. It's just one another one of those personal preference things. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, Sagan is just incredible. Obviously, he's not the defensive stalwart that a lot of guys that want at their number one center position. But his offensive game is just like, I don't think people realize yet that he's basically like level, with Crosby the last three years in terms of offensive production. Like, I know part of it is playing with Ben and like the two of them kind of feed off of each other, just like the Cedines do.

But I don't think that's like a knock on him, right? Like being able to feed off of another talented player like that is, you know, a measure of talent. So I actually have Sagan at number eight. Yeah. And I also think that it's a good point to bring up here. I was just kind of wondering, I'm sure people will ask what our sort of methodology was in terms of what we value from these guys,

especially at the center position. And it obviously is a little bit of everything, right? Like, you're not going to see many guys on this list that are super one-dimensional and just do only one thing because they're the best players in the league and sort of all this stuff kind of ties together. But I think that once you're talking about the cream of the crop, the guys that are just the truly elite scorers will get,

I'll generally kind of side be in their favor just because we just has a discussion about how it's tougher to generate goals in the league these days. And the guys that can, really make a difference and move the needle like that are just so invaluable. Yeah, I completely agree. And that's something that, like, I think you could drop Tyler Sagan into any situation and he's going to produce like 80 points, you know, like, it was funny when I was making

my list. And I think it was the right winger's in the centers. Some of the top guys were all players at the Bruins given away for free. And I wondered if Bruins fans were going to read those lists. And it was like, you know, Blake Wheeler was one of the top right wingerers. I think he was fifth. Tyler Sagan's the top 10 center. And then also Riley Smith

actually made the top 20 right wingers due to his defensive play. I was like, the poor Bruins, man. Like, I know they got Rich Peverely for a little bit from Blake Wheeler and he was a good player, but not even close. And then Riley Smith, that trade was brutal. And Tyler Sagan, of course, was, you know,

in a special kind of brutal trade. Well, I know there's a kind of a pushback to the tanking crowd. And I know there's an anti-tanking contingent. and that it sort of disrespects the game and stuff. And I feel like their best argument would be, well, you don't necessarily need the draft at the top of the draft to get an elite talent.

You can always just call the Bruins and see if they'll give you one. Not bad. Yes, yes. So I've been working on that one for a while. All right, number seven, who do you have here? My number seven, this was a toss-up for me because it was basically age versus experience, or age versus trying to balance whether or not,

age was the determining factor or just like pure how am I going to put this dominance right so I actually had John Tavares there and I was arguing about whether or not to put Thornton below him but I had to put Thornton ahead of him and the reason why is just because Thornton's gold dominance over the last few years

is unbelievable and but to talk about John Tavares man I think people really during the World Cup how good this guy actually is. And everybody knew that, you know, he's a goal score or whatever. But anybody who remembers, like, when he was drafted, the big knock on him was skating. And he wasn't very fast. He wasn't very agile.

Yep. That does not exist anymore. That guy is an incredible skater and, like, super powerful skater, too. And he's got the dangles to put anybody, you know, on their butts, break some ankles. Yeah. Yeah. So I have Tavares six and I have Thornton seven. So kind of we're thinking along the same page.

And for Tavares, he was amazing in the World Cup. I think that even before then, a reminder of how good he is, was the playoff run he had for the Islanders where they beat the Panthers and then lost pretty quickly to the lightning. But it was just sort of a reminder of what he's individually capable of because there has been a lot of turmoil and a lot of uncertainty around him in terms of line mates and obviously a proposal left this summer and they brought in LAD and then trying to find the right fit with him.

But the sort of the whole point of the story is that Tavares, it doesn't really matter who's playing with him. he'll probably be very productive and he's an amazing player. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you have a guy like Tavares and you're confident in putting Jason Chimer on the first line, just because you know Tavares can carry anyone, that's quite the boon. Not that putting Chimera on your first line is a good decision that I'm going to defend, but the fact is he's kind of like Crosby in a way that he can make anybody look good.

And I think that was one of the big knocks on Akposo, right? It's everybody who was nervous whether or not he was just a function of Tavarez, which I'm not sure that he is. I don't think so. But Tavares is just like, there's nobody in this league who's better within like five feet of the net than John Tavares.

His stick handling is just ridiculous. And I swear you could give him the puck on the goal line and he could hit the crossbar with it. And then like the elevation that he can put on his shot is ridiculous. Yeah. And it's amazing. I was having a discussion with someone the other day where it was about Nathan McKinnon who,

you know, people sometimes forget just how amazing he, he is and how highly regarded he was coming into the league because there's been so many of these new guys that have come in since and he's sort of been pushed down our radar and and tveras is a little similar in that regard it's it's easy to forget now it's been so many years that we were all so excited about him coming into the league and and and all the buzz about it and whether it's been because he's been playing for an islander's team that hasn't been very successful for a few years although now they've kind of turned the corner a little bit or or what but it's he's never really on the forefront of

our minds for whatever reason but he definitely belongs amongst these sort of top top 10 centers right here. Yeah, and I wonder if there's, you know, some push for him or like a, like a negative impact that he was in the public eye for so long. Because when he was 15, you know, people were talking about him being the next great player, you know, when he played for, in junior, they were saying like he's an ex-erick Lindrae style talent in terms of goal scoring. And, you know, his junior career didn't actually like ascend. He kind of went down a little bit each year. So that kind of like took some wind out of his sales in terms of hype.

And it just seemed like he never totally regained that. Like there was arguments that he shouldn't have even been the first overall pick during his draft year, which I know happens every year, but obviously in retrospect is kind of ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. No, Tavares is awesome. And before we get into our top five, we should give Joe Thorne a little bit of love

because he was pretty high on both of our lists. And deservedly so. And it's amazing that at this point of his career, just given the age and the mind, that he's still so good, but he's, he's amazing at everything. And I know that you were heavily beating the, the Joel Thornton should get serious, uh, selky appreciation last season and, and deservedly so because he was just, he was just on another level. I felt like whenever he was on the ice, the, the sharks were not only controlling the puck in terms of shot attempts, but also just like, no pucks were going into their net. It was all going the other way. So it's,

uh, no, Joe Thornton is still, still a heck of a player. Yeah. And I got some pushback last year and people saying PDO, but then like when you expand the sample size to three seasons, I believe that Thornton is still the best relative goals, four percentage center in the NHL, which is, you know, in his late 30s, is just incredible, especially when you think that when he's not on the ice, you've still got Logan Couture out there. It's not like he's playing on a team that they're just like giving him the easy minutes, like Thornton's getting the tuffs and he's got players of not equal talent, but close to right behind. him on the depth chart.

Like, the things that he's able to accomplish. And as much as I have huge respect for Joe Pavelsky, I don't think we see Joe Pavelsky being like a 40 goal score in his mid-30s without Joe Thornton there. Well, yeah, especially since he hadn't, he sort of established himself as like a mid-20s goal guy, maybe 30s at best for years there in his prime. And then all of a sudden they put him regularly with Joel Thornton and he shoots up to 40.

So it's a very curious coincidence if it is all Joe Pervel. Velsky. Yeah, absolutely. And like we've seen the same thing happen with Jonathan Chichu and Devon set of Gucci and all these guys that are good players, but Joe Thornton makes them great players. And he might be like the best, uh, goal producer for his wingers in the last decade in the NHL. I love Sidney Crosby and he clearly had a huge effect on, uh, Pascal Dupuy and Chris Kuhnitz, like point production. But in terms of pure goals, I don't think anybody's better than Joe Thornton. Yeah, and that relationship between him and Pavelsky really is perfect, because you mentioned how he can take a good player and turn him into a great player, but

like it kind of goes both ways a little bit, just watching them, Pavelsky is so good at finding those open spaces kind of in that slot area, and obviously he's known for the great stick he has with tips and sort of hand-eye and just being ready for, in the right place, the right time, so it kind of is a match made in heaven between those two. Yeah, absolutely, And I'd throw like Burns in there as well. Those three together kind of make this like perfect. The Holy Trinity. Yeah, it's amazing.

It's like, you know, Thornton is just this incredible playmaker. And then Burns is like a machine gun from the blue line that just fires pucks all over the place. And Pavelski tips everything or, you know, gets every rebound. It's incredible. There's a reason why they've had like the best power play in the league in terms of shot attempts for, what, five or six years now. Yeah. Yeah, I know. It makes a lot of sense.

Okay, so we're in the top five here now. Who do you have? Let's go five, four, three, and then we'll do the top two later. So who do you have in these next three slots? All right, next three slots I have Anzi Kopitar, Patrice Bergeron, and Connor McDavid. So you have Connor McDavid third? Yeah, I do. And the only reason why is because as great as he is offensively and in transition, he does,

like his defensive game is going to need to round out a little bit. and you know it's it's tough for me to give him the nod while he's still a teenager is great as he is I don't think it's a disrespect for Connor McDavid so much as more respect for some of the veteran guys yeah I mean just purely being in the discussion legitimately amongst these names I feel like is a is a pretty good thing considering how shortly how few games he's actually playing in the league and how young he is like there's it's a I'm sure someone might view that as disrespectful, but I think it's a, it's pretty high praise. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, any time that you're mentioned among the guys who regularly win the

Selke, that's, that's a pretty big deal for a 19 year old who's played like 50 games. Yeah, yeah, it's not bad. I have Connor McDavid fifth. So I'm just disrespect to him even more. But I think that the top four guys were just so tough to crack for me. I think that the first guy is in a tear by himself and we'll get to him in a second. And then I have this, The two to four is sort of a notch below, but they're still just so amazing. And then it's McDavid and then the guys we mentioned before. But I think that Covatar is interesting. You mentioned him.

And I know that in your write-up, you made a great point about how his defensive numbers aren't necessarily as amazing as you'd think. But it's really sort of the transition game in the neutral zone where he does most of his damage. And I actually watched very closely for that in the opening game of the season against the sharks. to see if I could kind of pick that apart. And it was really amazing once you actually kind of tune into it, the fact that he's just sort of patrolling. He's doing like laps in the neutral zone there.

And pretty much he's like a vacuum. If there's a puck around him, he's going to take it, and he's going to make a great play with it. And it's not a surprise that he's been the possession king, no pun intended for years now. Yeah. And one thing that I always like to point out with Kobatar is no forward in the league completes like a higher percentage of their passes.

Like, I don't know if, it's just like the insane structure of the LA King system because Dowdy also has the highest past completion rate among defensemen, but that team just does not really make mistakes. And they're two big leaders at Forward and Defense are like typifying what that team is all about. And, you know, Kobatar, he doesn't have the Godi defensive numbers of Bergeron, but it's almost like there's not as much opportunity to because his team is so much better. the Bruins, even though, you know, they're starting to thin out a little bit at forward.

And we can see that pretty obviously in terms of their goal scoring. But just the structure that team plays with, I don't think any team, even the Chicago Blackhawks can even compare to it. Like, it's truly incredible to watch. Well, I know that it's, you know, people who have to throw around the underrated tag. This guy is underrated. And it's very easy to say. But do you, I guess we would still be an agreement that on Zigo,

Potipater probably is underrated just because we have them sort of in this top five centers in the league range. And I think that for a lot of people out there, they might be surprised. They might have some of these guys with flashier point totals and highlight reels higher above him. So maybe he is underrated. Yeah, he probably is. I mean, I would say that if you put Kopitar and Taves in a poll against each other

among like the average NHL fan group, I don't think Kopitar would stand a chance about of finishing ahead of Taves. even though, like, they both had lots of playoff success, so that isn't something that should push Taves ahead of him. But, yeah, I don't think he gets the attention yet. And probably part of that is being or having a weird name. You know, and Andy Kobatar. And, you know, like, he's not as a good old Canadian homeboy-looking guy.

But he's just incredible. And I think the main thing with Kobatar, that, you know, people don't get to watch them a lot because it's really late when L.A. plays. And L.A., like, their structure is so good that they're almost boring if you're not, if you don't know what to look for. So that kind of takes it down a notch too. Like Chicago has a great structure, but they also play this like high tempo offensive game. Whereas L.A. just like sucks the life out of teams.

And as much as that's not necessarily fun to watch, tactically, it's just amazing. Yeah. And I mean, like, I think he started off the year with, with Dwight, Dustin Brown and Devin Sittaguchi is his two linemates, and now Dwight King is up there playing with him. Like, it's not like he's necessarily had immense talent playing alongside him either. Like, he's, he's, he's one of those very few players where you could really just kind of put him in the middle of any situation with anyone.

And I'm sure he would do pretty much just as well as he's doing right now. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, he did, he does like single-handedly qualify Slovenia for the Olympics. It's just, you put him on any team and all of a sudden they're amazing. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned Evgeny Malkin, I believe, and I, actually, you haven't yet. Do you, I believe you have him second overall then?

I do, I do. Yes, so I have him fourth. And the only reason, listen, if you told me that I was going to get even 75 to 80 games of Vagin Malkin this season, I would probably put him second as well. But, I mean, you look at his games played totals, and that's something I do generally value if it is sort of, if you're stacking two guys with very similar resumes and you're going, which one would you prefer? I prefer the guy that's probably going to be nice more often.

and he has unfortunately missed so much time over his career. But when he's out there, there's no question that he's right up there with the very best. And he can really kind of just impact the game in ways the very few other guys can. Yeah, Malcolm hasn't hit 70 games since 2012, which is crazy to think about. And he hasn't played a full season since 2009, which is his third year in the league. So he's missed a ton of time. And you're right, that is a real knock on him. I wonder how much of it is, you know, him being.

a little injury prone and how much of it is just the way that he plays because I don't think there's anybody in the league that typifies like the 1980s power forward more than Malkin. And he dangles a little bit more, but if he tries to enter the zone and somebody's covering him at the blue line, most guys will try to dump it in, but Malkin will just like bowl through you. And I find that like so entertaining to watch. Like, Malcolm might be my favorite center in the NHL to watch just from a pure offensive standpoint. Transition play is just incredible, the amount of dangles that he can do.

And at the high speed, right? Like, how many times have we seen Malcolm break in and he's like one on two, splits the D, scores a goal, and then like ends up crashing face first into the boards? Because he just doesn't care about his body. Yeah. And it's remarkable because when you watch him, it's pretty clear that I don't know if he necessarily even has this rep. but he really should. He has a very pass-first guy.

You can tell that he's looking for, he wants to distribute and get the puck to his teammates. And really, the last time we saw him kind of just like take it into his own hands was 2011, 2012 when Cindy Crosby was out and he scored 50 goals and fired, what, 300, I'm looking at 339 shots on net. So we haven't really seen that sort of high volume shooting from him

in the years past. And it's because he doesn't really need to. And I think he doesn't really want to. Like I think that he much prefers being that guy that kind of just facilitates and everything and everything runs through him. And he's so good at it, just the size, like how he can tower over people and find those passing lanes. And then the actual ability to make it happen and the creativity and the desire to do it. I mean, there's, there's, you can count the guys on one hand that kind of have that entire package.

Yeah, absolutely. And I find it kind of funny that like Malkin and Crosby both have had like that one 50 goal season. Malkin had another one that was 47. But it seemed like both of them were like, we're going to do this just to say that we can. and then we're going to go back to passing all the time. Just show that I'm capable of this and you guys are lucky that I don't always want to do it. Yeah, exactly. Like, I remember people made a big deal of like Crosby went from a straight stick to like a slight curve

and then he scored like 53 goals or something like that. And then the next year he was like, now I'm done with that. Time to pass again. Yeah. So I have Patrice Bergeron second and you mentioned him. He's also in your top five. He's remarkable. He really just does everything really, really.

well. And if you were creating a player in a lab and you were looking for a guy to model after, I mean, you can go wrong making him look after Patrice Berserun. Yeah, I feel like unless you're getting Sidney Crosby, like if you want a guy to build around, like, I don't think you could get luckier than taking Patrice Berserun in the second round of an NHL entry draft. Like, the player that he's developed into is just incredible. And I wonder, like, did we miss out on a little bit of like his potential from the concussion issues like could he have been even better than he is now like i wouldn't be surprised if at some point early in his development if the bruin's been like actually patrice we want you to be a defenseman that he would have like four norris trophies

by now yeah like he's just that's like level of defensive dominance this guy has like he's he's unreal and like his offense is underrated too and i think he's kind of done a little bit of a disservice in Boston, especially last year where their defense has gotten so weak with, you know, Chara aging and the only guy that they have that I'd want in my top four is like Tori Krug and he would probably be my fourth defenseman on most teams. You're not high on Rob O'Gera? No, no. Definitely on high on Kevin Miller either.

But I think that he's had to do so much more than other centers have had to in the defensive zone and like starting breakouts instead of participating in them and it's cut him back a little bit and it's lucky that they have uh brad marsh on there to to lead some of the offense because i think it's been hard on burson offensively and if he hadn't had to have that extra responsibility we probably see even better offensive numbers from him yeah and it's pretty cool because we i feel like a common denominator amongst the much like a bunch of the guys we just listed off is that for whatever reason either it's because you know they're so good that their team felt that they could just stick whoever they wanted beside them or, you know, they're just not

enough talent to go around and you've got to kind of pick your spots. Like, it's cool that Patrice Bergeron has actually had a legitimate running mate that sort of plays a similar style and can also just kind of fly with him and be a great running mate as opposed to some of the other guys. Like, I mean, Malkin has had a crazy rotating door of castmates alongside him. We just mentioned how Kopitar doesn't really have anyone to play with. And Tavares has had all these different names beside him. So it's kind of cool seeing Bergeron and Marchand just light the world on fire together. Yeah, absolutely. And I wonder how much better of a player Marchanne is just from, you know, kind of growing up with Patrice Bergeron.

I mean, you look at Marciaun's play away from the puck now. And even compared to like three years ago, he's so much better. He's just sucked up so much information from Patrice Bergeron to the point where, like, is there a better penalty killer in the league on the wing than Brad Marchon? I feel like it's a tough, tough, tough thing, tough thing to say that there isn't. Yeah, who would you even have as number two? Would it be like someone like Max Patcheretti? Yeah, probably. And I think the nice thing about both of those guys is their offensive threats

to short-handed situations as well, although Marchand is a better offensive threat short-handed. Yeah, I mean, what a novel thought. It's almost like having the puck and threatening the other team to score is also a very solid defensive approach rather than just kind of lying around your own zone and blocking shots. You think all Hal Gilles special? Yes.

Yeah. Amazing. What a time to be alive. Okay. First overall, Cindy Crosby, I feel like this is probably the easiest, easiest discussion we're going to have to have in this entire series. I mean, it's a shame right now that he's out with a concussion. Hopefully he'll be back soon.

It was a good sign that we're recording this on a Friday morning. It was good that last night he was able, I felt good enough at least, to bring out the Stanley Cup for their opening night ceremony, and hopefully he'll be back soon. but it's amazing just how remarkably good he is. And I feel like somehow he's also underrated because I don't know if it's just because he's been so good for so long that it feels like people are just itching to push him down this list and, you know, kind of be like the Sydney Crosby era's over. Let's hand the reins over to Connor McDavid or whoever else.

But Sydney Crosby is still pretty clearly the cream of the cop. Yeah, I think that's like a weird thing to me. And maybe I'm like a little bit defensive because I'm the same age as Sydney Crosby. but every time, like, after the first game of the, or first day of the season when McDavid had a great night, and Austin Matthews had a great night, and everybody was tweeting like, oh, the Crosby era's over,

he's no longer even the top two guy. You know, like, it's, it's done. McDavid's the best. Matthew's the second best. And I was like, no, no, he's not old yet. Please, he's not. And, like, man, you watch the World Cup, and it's impossible to say that Sidney Crosby

is not the best player in the world right now. Like, he's so, so dominant. in every way. And, you know, like I showed in my, in my pieces for sports and that his defensive numbers aren't the best, but I think that he makes some sacrifices defensively to produce more offense for the penguins. And, like, we saw in the World Cup that if he is tasked to play stronger defense, he will.

And he has that ability. I don't know if he has, like, Patrice Bergeron ability defensively. But I think that he could get there if he really wanted to. whenever he puts his mind to something, he just does it. Remember when he struggled at face off early in his career? Yeah, he was like 35% or something in his first year. And then like two years later, he was like 62%. Just incredible.

He's like, I don't know if it's just like the pure hard work mixed with talent or what, but there's never been a guy that I've watched hockey where you find a weakness. And he's already known that this weakness exists and he's already working on improving it. And then by the next time the year rolls around, he's already the best in the league at it. It's just, he's so versatile. It's unbelievable. Yeah, no, he's amazing. He's, listen, first overall here pretty, pretty handily.

And hopefully he'll be back soon when we get to enjoy him for the rest of the season. Before we end up this discussion, let's give some love to the guys that just missed the cut, because I know that some people will be listening and they're kind of wondering why we haven't mentioned these names. And I mentioned Taves is the guy who just missed my list. another guy that I really wanted to put on, but there just wasn't any space because of how deep this crowd is, is Nicholas Baxter, who I definitely think deserves some love here.

Yeah, Baxter was a lot lower on my list, which surprised me a little bit. But I do wonder, you know, obviously he's incredibly talented. And between like the 11th and 20th best center, I think there's very little separation. But I do wonder how much of his career has been, or at least his offense,

has been like, you know, boosted a little bit by playing with Ovechkin. So that kind of knocks him down a little bit for me. But, you know, Claude Giroux barely missed my list. And then I've got a couple of risers as well in Mark Shifley and Alexander Barkov that are, you know, knocking at the door there. I think they're potential guys who could be in there soon. Yeah, I think Barkov would be probably the best bad in terms of if we did this list again, even at the midway point of this season, but definitely next year,

I feel like he could be very, very close to being in the top. 10. And another guy I'm really excited about is Nathan McKinnon, who is a bit down. He's probably closer to the 15 to 20 range. But I feel like with a new coach and a new season, I mean, listen, we saw speaking of the World Cup and kind of reminding us of how good some of these guys can be. I mean, Nathan McKinnon has all the tools and all the talent in the world. And I feel like if everything clicks and he's utilized properly, he could really shoot up this list as well. Yeah, totally. And then, of course, there's Austin Matthews, who we don't know, you know? I mean, By the end of the year, he could have like 200 goals based on his pace.

Yes. I think people might be a bit surprised at a name we haven't mentioned at all. Stephen Stamco's, and I think deservedly so, not necessarily that he's a bad player by any means, but it's just that when you mention all these other guys and sort of how well-rounded and how dominant they are in multiple facets of the game, Stamco's for whatever reason just doesn't seem to crack that list. Yeah, and, you know, Stamcoast is obviously great,

but I think that, again, he's one of those guys where, a major injury has kind of derailed him a little bit because I think earlier in his career he was a much better transition player than he is right now and also the amount of time that John Cooper has pushed him onto the wing like there's just less opportunity to drive transition from the wing than there is at center it's just you know the facts uh you're not as deep in the defensive zone defending so you so you're not involved in breakouts as much it's it's an interesting question for him but I think the one thing that really holds Stanco's back is that when he doesn't have the puck,

he doesn't make much of an effort to get it back. He relies on his teammates to do that. And as a center, that kind of bothers me a little bit. Like, I kind of understand looking at his defensive numbers, why John Cooper puts him on the wing. And, you know,

am I saying that Tyler Johnson is a better player? No, but maybe going forward. It's probably closer than you think, though. Yeah, it's a lot closer than most people think. I think it's almost a toss-up. But I think that going forward, Stamco's might actually be a better winger than a center.

So last year before I looked at it super in-depth, I kind of thought that Cooper was being crazy. But now that I have, I'm like, you know what? The Lightning have made good call after good call after good call. Time to maybe trust them a little bit that they know what they're doing. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? I mean, if Stamco's was just a full-time winger at this point, he'd definitely be in the top.

top 10 on that list, just looking at the rest of the names on there. But it's the center group, it was just so good that it was tough to include them there. But I'm glad we mentioned them at least. Andrew, since we ran a bit long here, let's cut it off here. And we will do the wingers on a on a future show. Sounds good, man. Cool. The Hockey PDOCast with Dmitri Filipovich.

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