The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 108: Top 10 Wingers

Episode Date: October 19, 2016

Andrew Berkshire makes his return to the show to help rank the top 10 left wingers and top 10 right wingers in the NHL. Here’s a quick rundown of the topics covered: 2:00 Matt Duchene and Jaromir Jagr 4:00 Brendan Gallagher 7:00 Mark Stone, Tyler Toffoli and Jakub Voracek 11:45 Nikita Kucherov 17:30 Blake Wheeler and Joe Pavelski 20:45 The top tier of Right Wingers 25:00 Freshbooks read 26:00 Left Wingers introduction 30:45 Jaden Schwartz 31:45 Brad Marchand Johnny Gaudreau 35:00 Mike Hoffman 37:30 Max Pacioretty and Tomas Tatar 42:45 Filip Forsberg and Taylor Hall 47:30 Alex Ovechkin 52:00 Jamie Benn This episode is brought to you by Freshbooks, an online accounting service designed to save time and help avoid all of the stresses that come with running a small business. They’re currently offering a free 30-day trial to listeners of our show at Freshbooks.com/PDOcast (just remember to enter “Hockey PDOcast” in the ‘How You Heard About Us’ section). Every episode of this podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Stitcher and can also be streamed straight from this website. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews of the show are greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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My name is Demetri Filipovich and making a return appearance because we have some unfinished business with our top 10 list. It's uh, it's Andrew Berkshire. Andrew, what's going on then? Not much. I'm just looking at this list and making sure that I don't leave anybody out that really deserves to be in there. Okay. Let's let's get right into it because we, uh, we're going to do the right wingers and the left wingers on this show. And we'll start off with the right wing. It's an interesting list of players because I feel like the top of this group, maybe the first five, six or maybe even seven guys you can make an argument. I feel really good about it. And I'm, and I'm, you know, you could interchange them amongst that tier and have one guy, a few

spots higher and one guy, a few guys lower, a few spots lower, but for the most part, they all deserve to be there. But then after that, as I was rounding out my top 10, um, there's players I like and I think that have a lot of upside and have shown a lot so far, but not players that I've necessarily would be sort of willing to, to bet everything on. They're not necessarily kind of great players that would just instantly jump off the page, which I don't know if you agree with that or not, but I felt like I could have, you know, there's like 10 guys that could have been in that 8 to 10 spot for me basically. Yeah, absolutely.

And I think one thing that I notice with Wingers, every time I look at them, is that unlike centers where it's like this huge dog fight to get into like any kind of ranking, wingers, like the talent drops off pretty precipitously in terms of like all around play. And you see more guys who are mostly offense, right? It's just not a position where all around play is as focused.

on it. Yeah, which makes sense just based on the requirements of the position. But I think that, you know, my 10th guy, for example, is someone who you could make the argument. I'm cheating a little bit because he has played center for a large portion of his career. But, you know, he's playing wing right now. At least it seems that the coaching staff wants to do that. And that's Matt Duchesne. And the reason I put him at 10, honestly, was because I liked him the most there as opposed to some of the other guys there brought one of my honor roll mentions that I felt weird having in the top 10, but I guess you could make an argument, like whether it's a James Neal or a Patrick Hornquist or Kyle Ok Pozo or you go on and on down the list, like I felt weird about having those guys

as the 10th best right winger, but maybe they could have been. I don't know. Yeah, I had DeShane listed as a center, so I unfortunately don't have him on here, although he definitely would have made the cut if I would have ranked him that way. But my 10th right winger is the ageless wonder, Yarmur Yager. Yeah, I just, I look at that guy and even like, we talked about Barkov on the last podcast, and a couple of people have pointed out lately that Barkov's numbers away from Yager aren't very good. And I think that's a little bit unfair because a lot of his numbers away from him, he was a lot

younger. But, man, Yarmor Yager, he makes everybody pretty good. And I don't know what it is that he is able to do, but he can barely skate at this point. Yet he's a fantastic transition player and you can't get the puck off of him. If you try, you end up going head first into his butt. And he's just so strong. And he doesn't even look that big anymore. Like he's pretty skinny.

Everything that guy does turns to gold. It's really amazing. Yeah. You know, it's pretty awesome, man. I just wonder, I honestly hope this never stops. I hope that Yager's in our lives being this good for, for the first, procedural future. I want my kids and my grandkids to also enjoy Yarm or Yager the way I'm enjoying him right now. You got to like make sure you record every game unless or in case the NHL

screws up the website again. Yes. No, Yager is a very deserving 10. I had him. He was definitely in that sort of just missed the cut list in the 11 to 15 range and and he's amazing. It's crazy how good that line was. Number nine, I have a guy near and dear to your heart. Brennan, Gallagher. Yep, I've got the same guy at number nine. My right wing list is pretty much the exact same as what I had for Sportsnet. I was pretty confident in the way that that shook out, more confident than the way the center shook out going forward.

Brennan Gallagher, forechecking buzz saw, like, I don't know if there's anybody in the league who's quite as effective at just creating absolute chaos. And, you know, one thing I've noticed with Gallagher, his entire career with the Canadians, whatever line he's on, that's the line that produces offense that night. Like, he's just an offense producer to the max, and everybody loves playing with the kid. Like, he's an infectious personality. And I kind of love his smile, too, as much as that's not really a factor. Yeah, I think that a lot of fan bases out there would definitely describe him as an infection.

That's for sure. Absolutely. But he definitely is one of those players, you know, the guy that you hate playing against him, but you'd love playing with him. And it makes sense that last season, Carey Price's absence, got all the headlines for what was wrong with the Canadians. But I remember distinctly that after that tear,

they went on at the start of the year, it wasn't surprising that their play dipped quite a bit when Gallagher was out with injury. And it makes sense because he's just such a, he's such a kind of facilitator there where a lot of things run through him and he just makes, he's sort of like the engine of that group, right? He makes everything go.

And I think people might not realize, just how good he is at so many facets of the game. Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of people think that he's just a net front guy, but part of what makes Gallagher really impressive is like he's pretty good at carrying the puck. And in terms of like playmaking, he doesn't get any press whatsoever. But in and around the net, he is really good at finding like those little short

passes to players in the slot or like, you know, the Royal Road passes across the front on the net, that find a guy who was kind of hiding in coverage. He's really good at finding those plays. I think he's a lot smarter of a player than people give him credit for. People think he's just like willing to take punishment, and that's his main skill.

But he's really smart and, you know, good at drawing penalties. He knows where the line is for the most part, although I think he was kind of targeted a little bit by officials for a couple years for getting two in goalies faces. He's kind of learned from that and stays about another foot away from the crease now. Yeah.

Yeah, I love the one of my favorite skills a player can have, especially a forward, is the guys that drive that penalty differential that can play right on the line there where they get the opposition to take a lot of penalties. They probably shouldn't, but don't necessarily give them back themselves. And that's such a huge luxury when you have a guy like that on your team. Completely agreed. Completely agreed. Okay, so number eight, I have Mark Stone and number seven. I have Tyler Defoli. Who do you have in those two spots?

I have Mark Stone at eight as well. And at number seven, I've got Yakub Vorichek. So I have Vorichik 5. So we'll get to Vorichick in a second. Let's talk about Mark Stone here first. All right. Mark Stone, a guy that I've liked since junior, but who I really started to respect more than I thought possible

when he was a rookie, actually. What made the big difference for me with Mark Stone in terms of like this is a guy to watch was I heard him do an interview where he talked about how he would line guys up for body checks in the neutral zone or like as they were coming out of the offensive zone and they would flinch and then he would just ditch the check and go for the puck and like that you know go on a rush or whatever and like that level of intelligence in a game this fast not many guys can do that and obviously he leaves the league in takeaways which is you know a bit of a questionable

stat but all of the NHL's real-time stats are but obviously there's something there if he's leading the league multiple years in a stat that Datzuk used to lead in. I think he's just incredibly versatile for a winger. I do wonder if he could transition into being a center

because he has the skill set in all three zones to do that. I wonder if he'd be an even better player. Yeah. I remember when I was making this list when I put him there at eight, before I'd even looked at yours, I I knew you'd have him high just because we mentioned that sort of the loose puck recoveries and the takeaways.

I mean, it's a player right up your alley in terms of guys, like the prototype of guys you love. Yeah, absolutely. He's just like he's a hound on the puck. And that kind of play, like it facilitates so much for everyone around him.

It's one of those underrated qualities that's just kind of coming out now in terms of being able to track it and understand how big of a difference it makes on the play. So Tyler Tofoli, who I had number seven, I'm assuming you have them a bit higher then. Yeah, I have Tyler Toffoli, we have three. Okay, so I love Tyler Toffoli as a player. And I think that the thing that I love about him most is when you look at his sort of his career trajectory, it is one of those smooth sort of every year he just gets a little bit better. And I feel like fans sometimes expect that from every guy, this kind of progression

in their early 20s where they're just going to get better every year. And sometimes, you know, guys stagnate or their aggressive bit, and it doesn't work out the way you'd always love to. But Tofoli has been sort of the prime scenario of a guy. I mean, two goals, 12 goals, 23, 31. I feel like he could easily get into the high 30s this year if he gets the ice time and the volume. And he's a heck of a player.

And when you mention everything that Kings do well, obviously guys like Kopitar come up. And for some reason, Jonathan Quigg, still comes up as a reason why. But Tyler's DeFolli should be really high up. list in terms of the driving forces for that team. Yeah, like you said, he's almost like an HF boards version of what a player should do for their development, right? Like, if every fan projected how their prospect was going to develop, it would be

Tyler Tovoli's career trajectory. I agree that I think he could get 35 to, like, even, you know, bordering on 40 goals this year. He's also going to be really dependent upon in L.A. to score goals with Gabbarick out. And obviously like we covered on the last podcast, Dwight King's playing with Anzi Kopitar. Poor Enzi Kopitar. Yes, not a recipe for success. Yeah, exactly.

And I think one thing that people haven't really clued into yet is that while Tofoli's numbers have been continually going up, a lot of people credit that to Jeff Carter. And Carter, you know, definitely has had a huge impact on Tivoli's career. But as Tafoli's, you know, progressed, Carter has begun to regret. a little bit, and his numbers are still very good, but part of that is Tyler Tafoli is now carrying him a little bit. So it's one of those situations where, you know, like at a certain point, everybody is looking at Jeff Carter being, okay, he's the play driver at center, but you miss it when all of a sudden the student becomes the teacher a little bit. And I think that's where we're at now in 2016 is Tafoli's the big play driver on that line now.

Yeah, and you mentioned you look at that forward group and they're going to be a, you know, a good puck possession team again, of course. It's their brand of butter. But they don't have very many guys that can finish up front especially. And they're going to need someone to convert those opportunities. And Tafoli is prime for a huge offensive season. I have Nikita Kucharov at 6. And I'm glad that the lightning got him back on board because I like watching Kucharov play. And it would have sucked if he missed the start of the year like we're seeing with a guy. like Hamaslin home for example but it's just amazing it's has Steve Eisenman ever lost the game of chicken I mean the fact that they got him on board for the contract that they did is just remarkable it's basically wizardry at this point because Kuturov is such a high-end finisher but he's also not a very a liability like you think in in other areas of the game and they're just not the you just got to love the guy if you watch him play yeah absolutely and I honestly I don't know how Eisenman does it because, like you said, he has never lost a game of chicken. And I know a lot of people are saying, like, oh, it's a bridge deal.

I thought we all agreed that bridge deals are terrible. But it's a bridge deal for the three years where the lightning are going to be the most competitive. You know, like I think everybody knows this is their prime time to win a Stanley Cup. And I wouldn't be surprised if that happens this year. But yeah, Kutrov, amazing, amazing goal score. And, you know, I thought his breakout year, I definitely thought that he was the guy kind of, riding along with the Pilate and Johnson show. But I think he's the best player on that line now.

And, you know, whether it's transitioning the puck or scoring, even defending, like, he's got strong numbers all around, like you said. And extremely exciting player to watch too. And a guy that I remember him being pretty lauded coming out of the draft, but he fell due to the quote unquote Russian factor. And, you know, sometimes teams just take advantage of that. And obviously it's paid off big time in this case. Yeah.

And the fact that he's 5-11, I'm sure also contributed to that. Yeah, absolutely. The so-called undersized guys who are, you know, not that far below average. Yeah, no. But no, Kutrov's amazing. And he scored 30 goals last year. And he's also one of these guys where, I mean, last year was finally the first year where he got, he was sort of the man there, especially when Stanwell went out that he got, he was the trigger man on the power of play.

And he played a lot more. I mean, he jumped from under 15 minutes a night in 2014, 2015, to over 18 last year. And if he gets that kind of volume again, he could very easily. Just like we said with To Foley kind of hover in that 35 to 40 goal range, which very, very few guys are doing in the league these days. So I love Kucharab. Where did you have on your list? I also had Kuturav at 6.

Okay, perfect. So number five, I have Wurich who you mentioned, who was a bit lower on your list. And I think that he's a heck of a player. I mean, you look at his stats last year. and he had a quote unquote down year with 11 goals in 73 games, but then you look to your right slightly in the box score and you see a 5.2 shooting percent. And I mean, he had one power play goal where he had 27 in the three years before combined.

So I think that if you were sort of a betting manner, if you're playing fantasy hockey or something like that, you should probably take advantage of his suppressed stock and jump on that because I think those stats are going to be very hard pressed to continue, especially if he shoots over 200 times. again. Yeah, the one thing that kind of knocked Vorechak down for me was the lack of even strength goals. And that's been, I think it's been two years now where he's really struggled to do that. And I wonder, you know, like, is that a situation where he just doesn't want to shoot at

even strength or is his shot betraying him a little bit? It seems a little bit early for it to be decline. It could just be bad luck. But as a playmaker first, I usually look at wingers to be, you know, more primarily goal scorers, and that's entirely my bias, I think. But I think that knocks him down a little bit for me. As much as Voracek is, like, one of the best possession drivers from the wing and, like, everything else in the game he's great at. But I need a little bit more goal scoring for a top 10 winger to be, you know, like super high on my list. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. And I think that when we're discussing of getting him, I believe, when you were talking about him as a prototypical power forward,

and you watch Voracek, I mean, I, you watch Voracek, I'm, I, you know, I remember that clip in the preseason this year where I think it was an overtime game against the Rangers. And he sort of just shielding the puck from Ryan McDonagh and skating laps in the offensive zone before finally going to the net and finishing it. And you watch a play like that and you just, you can't help but be enamored by the immense potential of this guy. So I don't know, maybe I'm just kind of being clouded by that. And maybe he, maybe his on ice results actually haven't necessarily warranted him being this high. but I just, I think that even at 27 years old, I feel like just like, I don't know, I just won so much from this guy.

Maybe he'll never achieve it, but I mean, he did have 81 points the year before. So it's, it's not bad if you can get back to those levels. Yeah, it's not like he hasn't had a lot of success in his career. Yeah. What I find interesting is like, have you ever noticed how similar him in Gloujuru are? Like, Juru's a better goal scorer, but in terms of like play style and even like the look, they have the same beard and everything. they look like they could be brothers whenever playoffs roll around.

I find that really interesting for two guys who play so well together too. Well, and I think that it's not necessarily an optimal thing for them just in terms of distributing talent evenly and one guy has to play on his off wing. But when they load up Simmons, Juru, and Warwick, I just watched that and I'm just like, if I was the other team and I saw those three guys come over the boards and come on the ice, I'd be pretty terrified myself. Yeah, it's like it's not my shift right now. Yes, yeah, no.

Someone else go. Coach, I'm off. I'm off. I've got to tie my time my laces. All right. Fourth overall, on the right wing list, I have Blake Wheeler here. And I'll just mention I had Pavelski third, and I thought that those two guys were pretty interchangeable. I really wanted to put Wheeler third, but Pavelsky's production and just, I don't know, how much I enjoy that Pavelski-th Thornt connection, just kind of maybe swayed him just a little bit ahead of Wheeler for me. But those two guys are right there. Yeah, I had the same order there, but I have put Wheeler at fifth and Pavelski fourth, I had to fully hire.

But yeah, those guys, yeah, pretty interchangeable in terms of overall impact. Obviously, Pavelski can put the puck in the net a little bit higher rate. I think Wheeler's a little bit better all around. Wheeler, for whatever reason, earlier in his career, was considered a little bit like soft for his size. But, man, he uses his physicality, like, extremely efficiently. He doesn't get in, like, scrums and everything like that, but you're not getting the puck from him. and if you go, like if there's a loose puck along the boards, Blake Wheeler's getting it. You know, like the combination of speed and reach.

And like skating ability for a guy who's like, what, six, five? I don't know if there's many guys in the league who can skate like him, period. But to do it at six, five, it's just incredible. It's a huge advantage for him. Yeah, he's such a smooth player to watch. And another one of those guys that probably could have been doing these same things on the Bruins that they hadn't given up on him a bit too early. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, so Pavelsky, Pavelsky third. Bevelski, listen, if he wasn't playing with Thornton, he almost certainly wouldn't be this high on the list. So maybe that's a good argument for him probably being bumped down a little lower just because, but at the same time, like a lot of these wingers are going to be reliant on the centers

that can get them the pucks and put him in position to succeed. And Pavelski should get credit for being such an amazing finisher as he is. So I feel pretty good with him this high on the list, although I guess you could make the argument that he could drop a few. spots. Yeah, you could definitely make that argument, but I think as long as a guy has sustained success, it's hard to write it off. And, you know, it's been a while now that Bavalski's been pretty dominant. And I think when you look at like what he's doing individually on the ice,

his success is warranted. He's actually a much better passer than people give him credit for. I was really surprised when I looked into it that like his most common plays are all passes and like good high leverage passes too, all in the offensive zone, stuff like that. creating plays. Him and Thornton are great at giving-and-goes and stuff like that, and just creating lanes. I think that's part of also, like, you know, Thornton's influence on him as a player, like, developmentally,

is that he's learned some of the tricks to almost make, like passes that don't look like they're doing anything, but they open up lanes. And I think that's where, like, Thornt specifically blows people out of the water is he makes passes that don't necessarily create any offense, but everybody has to react to them, and then all of a sudden he's got the puck back, and there's an open lane,

and he'll find somebody in the slot. And I think Povelski's been a big part of creating those open spaces and then also shaking coverage in the slot to get a shot off. Yeah, yeah, no, it's a perfect pairing. So I thought that the top two guys on this list that we're about to discuss were sort of in a tier of their own. As good as the guys we just mentioned are, I think that Patrick Kane and Vlad Tarasenko are just kind of in a class of their own.

I had Teresanko first and Patrick Kane second. Yeah, I had the same, and I agree with you that they are kind of in a league of their own, especially in terms of offensive production. Like, I know a lot of people were upset at me that I had Teresanko above Kane on the Sportsnet piece, and I'm sticking to that just because I think Teresanko is a better all-around player, and, you know, part of that could be growing up in the Hitchcock system where there's no excuses for not playing defensively. But Patrick Kane, I think my only knock on him as a player is that,

that because he's so good offensively, it seems like coaches let him get away with everything. And it does hurt him a little bit, especially on the defensive side. And I think we saw in the World Cup that, you know, like John Tortorella said before the tournament started, that everybody had to be accountable,

but Patrick Kane was allowed to do whatever he wanted. And I think that really hurt them. Like, whenever you saw Patrick Kane, I know, like, people were surprised that he had zero points, but I kind of wasn't, it seemed like the entire American team gave the puck to Kane and then just kind of stood around and waited for him to do something. And every team was like, okay, just focus on Kane. And when there's that much focus on him, like he's shifty as anybody in the league, but he can't do everything himself.

He needs teammates. And I think whenever you give Kane too much time, he ends up being a little bit too fancy and he can hurt himself. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned sort of Teresenko as an all-around player and how playing under King, Hitchcock has probably reinforced that and helped him in the long run. But I'm not sure if this would be good for the blues. But man, if you could just like see Vlad Tarasenko just kind of opened up and just like he's look at his ice time.

I mean, last year he got a nice little step up, but he still only played 18 and a half minutes a night. And if you just like made him just all out workhorse and you just fed everything through him and just open him up playing in a more kind of freestyle system, I feel like it would be a pretty amazing result. but I guess we'll have to settle for 40 goals and 74 points like he had last season. Yeah. I mean, like, I don't know if he could score 50, but if anybody in the league could do that outside

of Ovechkin, it's probably Teresenko. And I'd love to see him be able to open it up for a season or at least get the ice time to like have a shot at it. What frustrated to me about Hitchcock last year was the ice time in the playoffs, where Teresenko was consistently getting less than Troy Brower. And like, I don't think Troy Brower sucks, which a lot of people have been saying, over the summer after Calgary signed him. I think Troy Brower was like a really good tweener guy,

like second or third line score who can put up like 40 points a year. But compared to Teresanko, like come on. No wonder the blues lost. Like you're never going to make the Stanley Cup finals when Vladimir Tarasenko isn't your most used winger. Like it's just insanity. It's that kind of overthinking that coaches do nowadays where it's just like everything's about being safe.

and sometimes you've got to go for the win. Yeah, no, he's, uh, Tharsanko's amazing. I mean, the combination of him being just a flat out scoring chance machine, especially like just waiting for the perfect opportunity to strike around the net and his finishing ability with his shot. I mean, it's, it's such a deadly combo. I feel like he could conceivably even go up another level. I mean, we just discussed about how Tafoli's been sort of,

if you look at his counting stats, he's been the perfect progression year by year. I mean, Teresanko has also been the same. A lot of it has to do with Hitchcock kind of having more. more trust in him as he's developed, but I think that there's still probably another gear to go with him. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised either. And I think one thing with Teresanko that I always notice is like, when you watch him play, you expect to look at his bio page on NHL.com after the game, and you're like, oh, yeah, he's like 6, 4, 240 pounds. Like, he's just a giant, but he's only six foot. And like, he's a strong 6 foot at 220, but he's, he plays so much bigger than you expect.

or then you expect him to actually be like he's so strong down low you can't really get the puck from him and that's as big a part of his game as his shot yeah yeah he's a he's a very thick young man um we'll uh let's hear from our sponsors here quickly and then on the other side we'll uh we'll jump into the left wing rankings sounds good let me tell all of you a little bit of both fresh books who aside from jumping on the pdo cast bandwagon and so generously sponsoring the show have one other thing going for them they've recently unveiled a brand new user-friendly interface that's made running a small business and working as a freelancer, like I do myself, easier than ever before. As an online accounting service, FreshBooks is designed to save you time and help you keep all of your checks and balances in order, whether that's

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So much like the right-winger's, I felt really good about the top of this class. And then I'd say the 9-10 spot, I went back and forth with like five or six names there. And I ultimately settled at Atlantisog 10 and Palat 9, but I'd be willing to hear an argument for guys like Skinner and Sod. And I mean, even Rick Nash, who's declined quite a bit and looks like he's on sort of the downslope. But even he's still, if you watch him on the right night, I mean, he looks like an amazing force. So there's a lot of guys here that could be on the bottom half of the top 10. But I went with Palat and Landisog. Yeah, what I was surprised about most when I looked at left wingers was that there was

quite a big difference between left and right wingers in terms of defensive play. And I wonder if that's a systemic thing, like, you know, the old left wing lock that teams go into when they're defending leads. I wonder if there's more pressure on left wingers to push that defensive play a little bit more than right winger. So I was a bit surprised at that, but like you said, towards the bottom of the top 10, there's a lot of players that could make it on there, although I think I'm pretty set with my top 10, but my 10th player was Daniel Sadeen. Who's still doing his thing. I mean, we didn't really mention Henrik Siddine when we did our top 10 centers, but he was an honorable mention of mine. And it's still amazing that those two guys,

even with the entire wasteland around them in Vancouver, have still been able to stay productive. And maybe more so, Henrik Siddin, although I guess Daniel Siddin as well, in these past few years, the point totals haven't necessarily been as high as, you know, we'd come to expect during their peaks, but they've sort of redefined themselves as really, really good defensive players. I mean, I guess they're two-way guys at this point, but it's remarkable how their longevity and it speaks to just how they've been able to kind of redefine their games. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, like, there was a couple years there where it looked like, or at least one year where it looked like they were falling off a little bit. And then, like,

the last year they're back into the 60, 70 point range, which is, you know, pretty solid considering. And like you said, it's a bit of a waistline in Vancouver. And I think that's an important point because, you know, as much as they worked well with Verbatta for a bit, and that that's good, like having one line that can score, it's so easy for teams to shut down a one line team these days, but you can't do it against the Siddines. And I think that makes such a, like a statement about them specifically. Vancouver's been a one-line team for like three years now, and they continue to push that production to,

maybe not the elite levels that they used to have, but they're still extremely good top line forwards, and that's tough when everything is pushing against you specifically to push the play like that. And like you said, they're great two-way players, and as much as I think they always have, have been and there's definitely been more of a focus excuse me on that lately yeah and mentioned with a guy like yager just his ability to even with deteriorating speed although he was never the fastest guy and

and with the advanced age still being able to remain effective just by sort of understanding body positioning and being in the right place at the right time and kind of thinking the game ahead of your opponent i mean the siddeans we saw it in the world cup just once they get into their office down low there and they get the cycle going i feel like They can pretty much do that effectively up until, like, as long as they want to. I feel like if you told me five years from now, they're still doing it, playing 15 minutes a night, but just dominating in those 15 minutes, I would totally view that as a believable thing. Yeah, so would I.

They're just, they're so dominant in passing the pocket positioning and obviously knowing where each other are going to be with their special twin powers. You know, it's hard to say, like, they aren't fast skaters, but I think they're they still play a fast game. Obviously they slow things down to whatever speed they want in the neutral zone, but once things happen in the offensive zone, like they don't play a slow game anymore. They wear you down with speed of passing.

And I think that's a big focus for me is like skating speed doesn't necessarily indicate pace in a game. And I think the Siddines have maintained great pace despite being slow skaters. Yep, yeah, I mean, I guess unless you're a guy like Connor McDavid, the speed of a puck moving through a pass is probably faster than any individual player. So who do you have at number nine? I have at number nine. It was a tough one for me, but Jaden Schwartz. And the big knock on him is health.

Like I had a few blues people saying that he, you know, hasn't been that unhealthy. But when you look at his game is played, like he's had some significant times missed in his career. he's got to find a way to stay healthy. And it's not like he's injury prone in one area. There's been a lot of freak injuries for him. But I know, you know, like Sammy Sallow, can we really say he was injury prone? It was all crazy weird injuries, including. He broke his testicle.

Yeah, he got bit by a snake once. But like some guys, that just happens to, and it's unlucky. But Schwartz has got to learn to stay healthy, or not learn to stay healthy, but get lucky and stay healthy. Yes. Because I think he's an incredible hockey player that we haven't had as much. much exposure to to learn that as we should have. Yeah, no, I completely agree. Okay, rattle off a couple of the next names in your list. All right. Next couple names on my list are Johnny Goddreau and Brad Marchand. So I had Brad Marchand at seven, which I guess lines up

with you, and I had Johnny Goodro at four. So I had Goddraud, a bit higher. And we'll get into him in a bit. What is there really to say about Marchand? I feel like we discussed him quite a bit when we talked about Bergeron at the top of our center rankings. I mean, he's probably the best penalty-killing winger in the league. He's just a fantastic talent. He contributes so much. And I think the interesting to me is obviously, you know, he earned himself quite a bit of money with that jump and goal scored last year

where he jumped up from the mid-20s up to 37. And I'm not sure how likely him repeating with 37 goals is again per se. But I mean, listen, he's always been one of the highest efficiency. finishers in the league. And then last year, he just basically started shooting a lot more. So if that continues, I mean, he could quite conceivably again finish somewhere in the low to mid-30s and goals. And considering all the other things he provides and the defensive value, I mean, he's just one heck of a player. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, like, I'm with you that I don't know if he'll repeat last season. And then the first game of the season this year,

he had five points. And I was like, okay. Yeah, never mind, he's going to be okay. I wouldn't be surprised if he has, like, if he doesn't reach last year's goal total, but has a career high in points this year. You know, I have not liked Brad March on for a very long time because I was a Canadian's fan and he is incredibly annoying and dirty, but it's impossible not to respect him. You know, like, in just in the ways that he comes at you, he's so varied. You know, he could be you with skating, he could be you with passing. He can find a way to score from the perimeter because his shot is just,

ridiculous or he could draw a penalty or he could injure your best player he's he's an all-around guy you know there's nothing really that you could you can say about him this bad outside of you know periodic lack of discipline once in a while but still i'm pretty sure he has positive penalty differential yeah yeah no he's uh he's awesome man it it's a testament to him how i feel like early in his career could have really gone south in terms of the shenanigans and getting himself in trouble. And he still occasionally has a few dustups. But he lets his play do the talking much more frequently these days, which is good because he's way too talented and way too effective not to do that.

Yeah, exactly. There was definitely like the stuff with Vancouver over the couple years around, like the time that they won the cup, that was like, is this guy going to be ruining his own career because he can't handle, you know, like a rival? at all. I think that Milan Luchich was a little bit the same. And I wonder if getting rid of Luchich helped him calm down a little bit because they kind of fed off each other in getting angry and doing stupid stuff during games.

And maybe it's just like my bias, but it seems like last year without Luchich was like the big turning point for Marchand that he focused on hockey way more than the antics. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So a guy that we haven't mentioned yet, I had him at eight. I'm not sure maybe he's lower down your list or maybe he's higher as Mike Hoffman. Mike Hoffman didn't make mine. I'll put him in my honorable mentions.

And one of the reasons why he didn't is I'd like to see him play a full year on the top line. A lot of his goal scoring over the first couple years of his career has been playing in the bottom six. And being able to do that in the bottom six is super impressive, but he also has him facing top checkers. and I'd like to see how well his goal scoring, you know, continues because he's a big perimeter shooter. I believe he scored like half of his goals from outside the slot last year, which is really, really rare. And I wonder if that's like, obviously his shot's crazy good,

but as teams adjust to him, is he going to see like a big decline in goal scoring? I don't know. So I'm kind of, he's like in my 10 to 15 range. I mean, it's fair also when a guy at like, like 25 years old, just suddenly bursts onto the CNN scores nearly 30 goals. I mean, he's done it for two straight years now, which gives me a bit more confidence in it. But you're right.

I'd like to see him take that next step. And hopefully under Guy Boucher, he gets a little bit of a longer leash because I know that a lot of, I mean, I love senators, Twitter. There's a lot of great follows there, and they're very active and very vocal. And I know a lot of them were very critical about how Hoffman was deployed. And there were times where he just randomly kind of for no reason fall into the dog. house of the coach and wouldn't be used nearly as much as he probably should. So hopefully that changes this year and we see him see if he's actually for real because I think he definitely is purely bad. I mean, I'm in my top eight at the positions. I'm clearly pretty high on him.

Yeah. And honestly, like, I'm not saying that he's not a great player. And I think for any sense, fans listening, like 10 to 15 is an insult that's still like a group of great players. And I do think that during the playoff series with Montreal a couple years ago, when randomly, I believe it was Dave Cameron, decided to put Hoffman on the fourth line after he was playing great in the first couple games, I honestly think that blew the series for the Senators. Playing Mike Hoffman like five to eight minutes a game in the playoffs, when you're desperate for goal scoring against Kerry Price is just mental.

And those last couple games were so close. the senators could have come back in that series from down 3-0 and instead they put their basketball score on their fourth line. Yeah, yeah. Bizarar decision, I guess that's why he doesn't have a job anymore with a sense. I have Max Petcheretti 6th, another guy that's near and dear to your heart. Where do you have Patch? I have Patch way up at 4.

I have at 6, I have Thomas Tatar. Ooh, yeah, I know that you love Thomas Tatar. I'll give you the floor here. Write your love letter to tar. All right, Tatar. I don't know what it is that people don't really give him credit for, but there's no real statistic that you can look at with Tatar where he's not great. You know, like his Even Strength production is fantastic.

His possession numbers are fantastic. His possession driving numbers are fantastic. He's a good defensive player. I think maybe coming up in the Detroit system helped him a little. bit, you know, playing with Datsuk and Zetterberg, you learn the intricacies of the game. He's also, like, a super efficient player. Like, he's just a great decision maker. He doesn't dump the puck in. He doesn't dump the puck out. He's always carrying it or passing it. He's got good success rates and everything that he does. He's just, like, he's good at everything.

And on top of that, he's a really high-quality finisher as well and an entertaining player to watch. And I think there's some bias in me for Tatar in that, uh, I just like the way he plays. I find him extremely entertaining to watch. And I hope that people recognize him a little bit more, including his own coach who didn't like playing him last year for whatever reason. Yes. And I think they'll need him this year.

I mean, with Datsu not there anymore, they'll need some of these guys to step up because it's pretty barren on the margins there. And I feel like we're used to the Red Wings being sort of this standard of success and obviously the playoff streak and all that. But I think they're going to struggle quite a bit to be, very competitive unless they start relying on some of these guys and actually deploying them properly. And I think that, I mean, Tatar is starting the year right now with Nielsen and Zetterberg, so that's a good start in terms of getting, getting him enough minutes to actually contribute

some high-end totals. Yeah, absolutely. It's, they've got to make the decision now that, you know, the Cronwall Zetterberg, Datsuk days are done. Obviously, Datsukes, because he's gone. But those guys are now your elder statesman and they shouldn't be your top minute guys. And it's Tatar and Nyquist who should be running that team. And also maybe Brendan Smith on defense deserves a little bit more. Not Jonathan Erickson and Nicholas Cronwell? No, no, I don't think so. I mean, and a lot of people in Detroit love Danny DeKaiser too.

And I'm not seeing that at being a great fit either. Yeah, I mean, he's okay. But again, I don't think he's a top pairing guy. And that's probably the problem in Detroit right now is they don't really have a top defenseman. although I really have a lot more respect for Mike Green than most people. So I mentioned I had Patcheretti 6 and I love the guy and I know that you do too. So you're closer to the situation in terms of you obviously cover the team for years and then you still live there and kind of follow the local media. Like why is this guy seemingly kind of divisive amongst people in Montreal?

Like just watching looking at the results and then watching him play. I mean, I would only love the guy if I was cheering for the Canadians. I don't understand why people are kind of not sold on him as being a super high-end player. I think if Patcheretti was 5-11 and he had the same numbers, people would not be so frustrated with him all the time. But for whatever reason, Habs fans want him to be, you know, like Cam Neely when he's really Marion Hosa. You know, they want him to bowl through guys like Malkin and dangle and shoot and score. But really, he just uses guys for screens. and then Snipes top corner instead.

And I think that a lot of people just don't understand that's just as effective, if not more, in today's game. And he doesn't get a lot of credit for his defensive work. A lot of people don't like him as captain because he's kind of boring. But again, maybe that's just his public face. And people don't see what happens in the room. He was voted captain by his teammates. So I would give them, you know, the benefit of the doubt there.

but there's nothing really did Patcher Reddy's bad at he's not he's not the greatest playmaker but you know like his shot is top five in the league in terms of release and velocity he just does everything well and I think like the Marion Hosa

comparison is apt like I think he's Hosa light but I think that's the player in the last 20 years that he compares most strongly to he's just an all around guy who puts up tons of goals and doesn't get the credit that he deserves

and maybe he won't until he's an elder statesman like Hosa is. And like, you know, Hosa didn't get a lot of good press until he was in Chicago. Yeah, that's true. I mean, listen, if you're getting like 30 plus goals from a guy who's also the second best penalty-killing winger in the league and just can play in all three facets of the game, like I'm pretty cool with that as being kind of the centerpiece on my team

and also the captain. So I don't really get the issue there. But let's get into the top five. I love these guys that are going to come up now. I mean, I'm just enamored with them completely. And number five, the epitome of that is Philip Forsberg, who is before our very eyes just blossoming into one of the best players in the league and is going to be the driving force for a National Predators team

that I think is also going to be one of the best, but also one of the funest teams to watch. Yeah, I had Philip Forsberg a little bit higher. I had that number five, Taylor Hall. Yeah, so I mean, I have Hall four. Actually, I have Goddrow for Hall 3 and Forsberg 5, but I thought all three of those guys were kind of right there. Yeah, absolutely. And those guys all have something in common.

They like to carry the puck. Hall is probably the best at it. Kind of like the Siddins in a way that Taylor Hall on a team that cannot drive possession at all has been probably the best transition player in the entire league over the last few years. I liked what Gen L.C. did when she did her tracking project of how goals are created. And when she was talking about Taylor Hall,

more than any player in the league, Taylor Hall will create his goals from his own zone all the way through to the other zone and score. And like nobody else is really touching the puck. He doesn't really get any help. And he just does everything. And I know that Chris Boyle,

he's also been looking at to which guys, you know, create their own offense or create the high danger scoring chances in their zone. And when halls on the ice, he creates something like 60% of the high dangerous scoring chances for his team, which is just nuts for a single player. Yeah. Yeah, no, he's, uh, he's amazing.

I think that he's going to single-handedly make the devil's watchable the season, which is a testament to just how electrifying about individual talent he is. Yeah, it's going to be fun to watch how he fits in there. And with a team that with a bit, more defensive structure that might, you know, like support him a little bit when he does his like high flying moves. And I wonder like if he will see like a big bump in power play production with with the team that actually, you know, sets him up for success instead of just kind of let's him

hang out to dry. Yeah. Yeah. Just give him the car keys and just do whatever you want, Taylor. So Forzberg, I think he's one of my favorite players to watch in the league. He's just so insane. I mean, you mentioned how, just like Hall and Gaudro, he's really great at carrying the puck. And just watching him kind of maneuver through the neutral zone and enter the offensive zone with it is just a thing to behold. And right now he's scheduled to play with Ryan Johansson and Kevin Fiala on the top line. And I just can't wait to watch those three guys together. I feel like the combination of the skill and the physical tools there amongst those three is going to be just beautiful chemistry and just beautiful to watch. And I think that it's always tough.

to say whether he would develop the way he has. I mean, obviously he was regarded pretty highly, but I think even his biggest fans weren't necessarily believing that he had this sort of upside when he was coming into the league and he was a prospect. But I mean, imagine him on the capitals right now instead of the memories of Barnier. Yeah, no kidding. I wonder how often the capitals, you know, look back on that trade and they're like, would we have won the cup last year if we had Philippe Foresburg instead of like you said the ghost of martinier at then i don't know i mean they could have probably beaten the penguins if they had another elite forward that that would have been a big difference maker yeah um the thing about forsberg to me like looking

at how he's developed is it kind of confirmed for me the way i evaluate prospects it's like points are important but i always try to look as much as i can at like shots or shot attempts if it's available and every time i looked at forsberg and people were like oh i don't don't know if he has the offense and I would look at it. Like he was leading his Swedish team in shot attempts. I believe he led the entire world juniors in shots when he was there. And I was like, no, this guy, he's putting pucks on net. And I think that's a pretty good indicator that if a guy can do that,

he's going to be a goal score in the NHL, especially when he's doing it against elite competition. And that's proved to be true. I mean, the only guy that I can think of that puts up elite shot rates and has not really developed into a great goal score is Evander Kane. And you know, he's had his one really good season, but I think most

it's due to injury more than not really being a good shooter. Yeah. No, it's, I mean, Forzs scored 33 goals last year and it's easy to forget, but I mean, he just turned 22 years old, so I feel like the possibilities are endless with him. The top two guys on my list

and I'm fascinated to discuss this one guy because I know that you had him much lower on your list, and caught a lot of flack for it is Alex Ovechkin. And I'll let you justify not even having him. I think you had him at what, 10th or at 11? Yeah, he was 10th on the list, although I bumped him up to number two on this list, just because before when I was doing my list, it was, like, part of it was my opinion in, like,

waiting statistics, but, you know, there's always a limitation in numbers to look at a goal scoring, I find. Like, it's always a little bit underestimated. And Ovechkin is just, you know, the goal. the greatest goal scorer in the history of the game, in my opinion. Like, if you were to take Alex Ovechkin and give him era-appropriate equipment and pop him into the 1980s, he's going to score like 115 goals, you know, like, maybe even more. I was talking with someone on Twitter the other day, and it was like, if you put Alex Ovechkin in the 60s,

how many goals would he score? Like, you look at the way that goalies were back then. He would score like 500 goals in a season, and he wouldn't even need, like, any help. He could play like three on five and still score 500 goals. Like he's just, you know, like most of his goals come from that patented one-timer, but you put him in another era where there's like a little bit more lax checking. And he's just going to use that screened wrist shot through the skates move and score every shift. You know, like he's just so incredible.

And to be able to do that, obviously to score 50 in today's game, I think you have to make some sacrifices on the defensive side. and he does that. And that's not necessarily an indictment of Alex Ovechkin, as it's using Alex Ovechkin's talents to the maximum for the Washington Capitals. And that's going to look bad in breaking down Ovechkin from like an all-around point of view. But that's the best use of him as a player. Yeah.

I mean, it was funny to me last year. There was this kind of narrative being spun when the Capitals were the best team in the league. And they were winning a lot. And it was like, oh, Fetchkin's a change man under Barry Trots. You know, he's finally gotten to him and showing him that you got to do these other things to win. And it's like, no, OV's pretty much the same player, which there's nothing wrong with because he's a generational score. And no one can really do what he does in that regard. And I think just kind of surrounding him with better players and then just letting him do his thing is a winning recipe.

Yeah, and I had a good friend of mine was like really pushing that narrative last year. And I kept on like kind of laughing at him. and I was trying not to be like an arrogant jerk about it, but it was hard not to. And I was like, his defensive numbers are like the exact same. Even like, I believe goals against were pretty similar too. But I think it was either Russian machine or Japer's rank broke down that not last year, but the year before where he had the terrible plus minus. His linemates had something like a 3% on ice shooting percentage at even strength.

But like his was fine, but his linemates just could not score for whatever reason. and that's what was driving his bad plus minus. And it's like, you know, that has nothing to do with Alex Ovechkin. You know, he's not even the primary playmaker on his line, even though he is underrated in that component. So, you know, it's just another indictment of plus minus as a statistic. Yeah. No, listen, man, he's insane.

The fact that he can just keep putting together these 400 shot seasons and 50 goal seasons, like no one is doing anything anywhere near resembling this. So, yeah, I think. instead of just trying to pick holes in his game and trying to, you know, figure out why he can to get it done in the postseason, quote, unquote, and overlooking the fact that he still produces quite a bit there is, uh, we'll just enjoy him because I don't know if we're ever going to see a guy like him again. Yeah, it's important, I think, to look at these special guys and really appreciate it while we're seeing it. Because, you know, too often it's when they're, you know, Yager's age and we're like, oh, yeah, now we'll realize he's special. Like, when I was a kid, I know, like, a lot of people hated Yarm R Yager because he was, like, he was, like, like the cocky check guy who was taking the Canadian game by Storm.

It's like, no, no, no. Like, just appreciate this guy for what he is. He has a great personality. He's interesting and he's fantastic. And, you know, like, Ovechkin typifies that. He's got one of the best personalities in the game. I mean, like, I still regularly watch that video of when he scored a hole in one, like his first time ever playing golf.

I swear, God. He's fantastic. Everything about Ovechkin. Yeah, it's awesome. And like, I love the story last year that in his last game of the year, he didn't, he had like 47 goals. And I think it was Gretsky was like, score 50. And he was like, okay. He just went out and scored a hat trick. And last game of the year, like, at will, this guy can just put the puck in the net. Yeah, it's insane. And then Jamie Ben, uh, listen, I feel like for a guy that, uh, we have first here and, and is kind of generally

regarded as just being an amazing player. I don't really even have much to say about him. He does everything well. And if you were sort of creating a winger in a laboratory, you would probably wind up coming out and looking like Jamie Ben. Yeah, I totally agree. You know, like he's a physical specimen. He's a giant.

And obviously he's number one because Jamie Ben won't go down. Yes. Yeah. I'm leaving that one alone. Andrew, on that note, I think it's time to put a book. on this podcast. When we come back, we're going to do the defensemen. So that's going to be a pretty good discussion.

I feel like it's going to be tough to even do a top 10 list for defensemen. I feel like we might just have to stretch it out to do a top 20 year, talk 25 because there's so many good deserving names. But it's been fun ranking the wingerers with you, and we'll chat soon. Absolutely. Let's talk soon. The Hockey PDO cast with Dmitri Filipovich.

Follow on Twitter at Dim Filipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud. at soundcloud.com slash Hockeypedocast.