The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 116: Keep Up Or Get Left Behind

Episode Date: November 17, 2016

Bret Hedican joins the show to discuss how much the game and the demands of the defense position have changed since he came into the league. Plus, how the San Jose Sharks went about constructing their blueline, what it's like watching Brent Burns on a nightly basis, and some other quick-hitting topics about his time playing in the NHL. Here’s a quick rundown of the topics covered: 0:30 Difficulty evaluating defensemen 7:15 How the San Jose Sharks built their blueline 11:30 Brent Burns as a force of nature 14:40 The chicken vs. egg of winning and chemistry 19:15 Staying Power of Coaches in Modern NHL 22:15 Is Patrick Marleau a hall-of-famer? 24:20 Favourite defenseman to watch Every episode of this podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Stitcher and can also be streamed straight from this website. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews of the show are greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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My name is Dimitri Filipovich. and we've got a treat today. Joining me is a former NHL veteran of over a thousand career games and a Stanley Cup champion. It's Brett Hedekin. Brett, what's going on, man? Not much, Demetriere, thanks for having me on and enjoy some of the things you've done in the past

and some of your analytics as well. So a pleasure to be with you. Well, we've been fortunate enough to have some really insightful, well-spoken players come on in the past to impart their wisdom on us, but I feel like it's always been either former goalies or forwards and this is the first time we've ever had a chance, to speak with a former defenseman.

So I'm excited because I do think it's a position, especially in today's NHL, that I don't think we really discuss enough. Let me rephrase that. I think we discuss it enough, but we don't discuss it with enough nuance or depth because it's a position where it's kind of tough to just say, you know, how many points this guy had or it's tough to point to one single statistic and evaluate how they played on that given night. So I think there's a lot of nuance here, and I'm kind of excited for your.

your take on it. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, you look back, you know, when I first came into the NHL in the 92, 93 season, the game has come leaps and balance with regard to the game of defense as far as, you know, what's expected of a defenseman today versus back when I first came in the league. And just how that, you know, position has changed.

I mean, you look at just the overall clutch and grab when I got into the league. I mean, it was incredible. I mean, I remember trying to, you know, taking a game that I learned, you know, high school, college, and then, you know, the Olympic games and so forth where you kind of could get up in the play and skate, where I went in the NHL, where I couldn't even, you know, get up and the play because somebody was last suit around my waist,

you know, basically skiing and I was pulling them up and down the ice. So the game has come a long way from then. Yeah, well, it definitely has. And I think that, you know, we see that often, but it is worth pointing out that, I mean, like your last season, for example, came in 2008, 2009, and I think that even since then, the game has changed quite a bit, and the positional demands have, I mean, if you can't skate and can't keep up and don't have a certain baseline level of puck skills right now, I think that you're going to get exposed pretty quickly.

And, you know, there's a lot of talk about how, you know, guys that are mostly used just for fighting in terms of forwards are sort of becoming a dying breed in the NHL. but I think that sort of your quote-unquote defensive, defensemen who just kind of stay at home and block shots and throw hits, those guys are sort of going by the wayside as well. No doubt about it. And if you really look back, I mean,

you can almost pinpoint the time when the rules changed in 2004 during the lockout. You know, the lead came back at that moment and said that we're no longer going to play this clutch and grab. We're going to not allow that stick to get parallel and hook around the player around the midsection to prevent them from getting up the ice and make the game fast again. And from that point on, if you can really retract, I mean, these kids that saw the game change at that moment were probably seven, eight, nine years old when those rule changes, you know, became in effect all the way down to everybody that played the game of hockey.

And so now you're seeing this generation 12 years later, or in some cases, eight years later, you know, somewhere in that gap, if you will, of these kids, that are young, anywhere from 18 years old to 24. And they've known nothing else but to, you know, hit the throttle in the defensive zone, get up in the play, add to the attack, be the fourth attacker, and sometimes lead the rush. So you're seeing that generation now, and I love the fact that, you get the Werenskis and the Seth Jones and the Anifans, these young players that are 18 to 20 years old and sometimes, you know, that low 20s that are playing such a different game today on defense than it was when I first came into the game. And so you're right. The game has evolved on defense. It has changed. And you're

seeing this new generation of defensemen that have known nothing but get up in the play and add to that fourth, you know, that attack, if you will. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's, I think a key component of of what defensemen are relied upon these days. I've written a lot about it. But just completing breakout passes and being able to start that transition game because it's funny, it's hockey is such a free-flowing sport. So it's really tough to separate defense from offense into two separate components because, you know, like, defending well all of a sudden sets you up for going, attacking the other way and so on and so forth. And if you have a, you know, a weak attack, you're probably going to wind up with defending a lot. So it's funny seeing how people sometimes try to latch on to one particular skill set.

But I do think that all this stuff sort of comes together as a bunch of different puzzle pieces as one whole thing. Well, yeah, I mean, you're looking at, you know, everybody, everybody talks about a copycat. league. Everybody wants to do what the team that just won. And you look at the Pittsburgh Penguins, the depth that they had up front. They had great goaltending, no doubt about it. But they also had defense that were real agile and mobile and could get back there and move the puck rapidly. And I think, you know, it's not so much a copycat league. I mean, for me, I'm an agreement with you on the fact that you have to have defensemen all that are mobile. You can't really have that defensive defense in my view anymore. I think all six defensemen that are on your

team are capable of being physical, are capable of blocking shots, doing the defensive work, if you will. But you need those six defensemen to also be able to be mobile back there and to continue to work on thinking the game better, moving the puck more crisply, and getting up and activating into the play. Those are the things that I think, you know, are paramount for any team that wants to compete for a Stanley Cup in today's game and beyond. If you don't have defensemen that can do that, you are behind big time when it comes to

wanting to compete today in today's NHL. Yeah, you're just going to be chasing the game constantly. I try to wonder, like, what is a defensive defenseman in 2016? Is it like a guy like Mark Edward Vlasic, for example? Yeah, I mean, he would be considered a defensive defenseman, but, you know, as you can see, he's nowhere near a defensive defenseman, but because he can get up in the play. he can play on that second power play unit. He also can activate in the offensive zone,

but he's there to shut down the other team's top lines. And why is because he thinks the game quick enough, and he's mobile enough to be able to skate with top players around the league. And so, yeah, I guess he's, you know, in quotes, a defensive defenseman, but not at all. I think he's really the prototypical defenseman that any team in the league would want not only one player like Mark Edward Vlasic, but maybe two, three,

and sometimes four would be nice to have guys like that, but they're hard to find. Yeah, yeah, he seems to be able to kind of just do a little bit of everything. You follow the sharks closely, and I wanted to tie them into this discussion because I think they've done a masterful job of assembling their blue line. I think that, you know, if they could do the Roman Polack trade over again from last year, I think they would just because, especially in hindsight after seeing how that was, that third pairing was their most noticeable weakness in the Stanley Cup final matching up against Pittsburgh speed. But now with David Schlemko in the mix, they have six guys, as you mentioned,

that can skate, that can move the puck, that can really do at least a little bit of everything. And I think that, you know, if you're looking around the league, you'd have to add them into the discussion of the top defense groups, I think, and at least in like the short list of the top handful or so. Oh, no, no doubt about it. And, you know, Dylan, DeMello hasn't even gotten in the lineup right now, and they haven't been able to slide him in there. You know, Paul Martin has, you know, gotten a little bit older.

And I think, you know, there might be an opportunity for Dylan DeMello to get him the line up once in a while to give maybe Paul Martin a rest. But you're right. I mean, if you look at really the pinnacle of Brent Burns being the guy that can do just about anything on offense and defense, and he's hard to play against defensively, but what he can do offensively is incredible. You really build it around him, and Blasick and Braun is really a shut down pair. And you mentioned Schlemko, who has been really a guy that I've been really impressed with this year playing with Brennan Dillon, who really worked, you know, coming off a short summer,

playing in the Stanley Cup finals, getting that experience of playing in some big moments, I think, only helped him be a better player and then realize what he needed to work on. And really, he spent the summer working on his skating ability, getting faster and leaner. And boy, it's been noticeable. That pair of Dylan and Schlemko has really played tremendous this season for Pete DeBore Sharks. And I think when you have, again, as you mentioned, a six defenseman like this that can all be mobile and move the puck, when they are on their game, they're very difficult team to beat.

And you're seeing that on this road trip so far. Obviously dropped one to Carolina last night. But the first three games beating, you know, obviously Tampa Bay in Tampa on a Saturday beating the Gwashing Capitals. And then obviously the Florida Panthers as well. So they'll have a tough task tomorrow against the Blues,

but nonetheless, when that six defense plays the way they're capable of, very difficult team to beat. Yeah. I mean, one thing I'd love to pick Doug Wilson's mind, about or maybe it's a group effort between Doug Wilson and coach Pete DeBoer where it seems like they've prioritized a certain type of player at that position but then also just the way they play

I've noticed that you know all six defensemen are very aggressive in terms of not letting opposing attackers just waltz into their offensive zone with the puck especially with complete possession and that you know mark ever blasek's one of the best in the league at doing that but it's really trickled down to the rest of the guys and yeah I'm sure it has a little bit of Pete DeBoer is doing as well in terms of just like tactics they're they're preaching because there are good skating defensemen around the rest of the league that are more willing to sag back and just and just kind of have a shell around their goalie as opposed to actually aggressively defending their blue line. Oh no doubt. I mean Pete DeBoer is so adamant about that is just you know attack the puck

I don't care where you are in in any area of the rink it's attack the puck if you're forward you you don't have the puck and you see the defense's attack attack. I mean, somebody has to go out of them, but same thing in the defensive zone. They really try to take a man and go after the puck area. Obviously, don't give them the time and space. And when you've got six defensivemen, then I can all skate the way this crew can, it's very easy to be aggressive. And then obviously, if a mistake is made, you've got people to back you up.

But for the most part, you know, Pete DeBore has done a nice job with this group. And obviously, him and tandem with Doug Wilson, you know, working together to find guys like Shumpko to add in, you know, after the Roman Polack deal. last year. And I don't disagree with you too much on that. I mean, I think Roman Polack was definitely needed in that first round, probably against the LA Kings, but afterward they needed somebody maybe more like Schlemko. So it's unfortunate they didn't have, you know, two guys in that deal that could have played, you know, both roles during the course of different rounds of the playoff. Yeah, yeah, the playoffs are such an animal in terms of you've got a stylistic matchups against

whoever you're playing. We've been talking about the Sharks Blue Line for a while, and we haven't even really mentioned Brent Burns and I think we'd be remiss to have this discussion without spending some time on him. So what's it like watching a force of nature like Brent Burns up close on a nightly basis? Well, you just see things that he does that I don't see any other guy in the league do. I mean, he really, the way he shoots the puck, and it doesn't take much. It's a wrist shot that he gets the puck off the wall and he can pull it to the inside down the wall or he can fake that and go, you know, a little backhand move and back down the, the, wall and create offense, you know, driving down the boards. But then you can see him block a shot

like he did in 40 the other night and just basically take it all the way in and score the score of goal. I mean, he just does so many different things and has so many weapons that it's been just so fun to watch. Now, defensively, yeah, people were hard on him, you know, over the last few years, but he really, the last year, you know, came leaps and bounds in his defensive zone. And, you know, maybe early in this year got off the rails a little bit before he settled back. down and when he settles back into his game defensively, everything just seems to happen for him offensively. And you're seeing that again take over again this season for Brent Burns. Yeah, I mean, just last night against the Hurricanes, there was a play in the first period, I think,

where he took a pass from Paul Martin in his own zone. And you could just see the Hurricanes defense kind of relaxed a little bit just because they're used to defensemen kind of slowing down there and regrouping and letting their skaters change. But instead, he just saw an opening and he just skated right up the middle and got a breakaway and drew a penalty on it. So he just, you know, he has the physical tools, but also the mind to just try things and no other defensemen really try to do out there. And you mentioned how much he's shooting the puck out. We haven't really seen this kind of volume from a defenseman since, I think, like, Bob Björ in the 70s or Ray Bork in the mid-90s. And I think that's two pretty good names

to be associated with. No doubt. And, you know, I know exactly the play you're talking about there where he went up the middle, obviously. And you're right, he just does things that a lot of defensemen aren't expecting a defenseman to do, and he's willing to give it a shot because he really has no boundaries. I mean, he really doesn't, and that's what's been so fun to watch Brent Burns on a nightly basis. But you're right, the volume of shots right now, leading the league and shots as a defenseman.

You know, the last, I think last year he was right up there as well, and this year leading the league. So that's just incredible the way he is able to get, and even everybody knows going into the game, you know, take the shot away from Ben Burns. Don't let him get the puck. But he still finds ways of, you know, navigating that puck to the net and a very difficult shot to stop if you're a goaltender through traffic

with the velocity that he gets on it from the point. Yeah, and especially with, you know, if you have a guy like Joe Pavelsky out there who's probably the best in the league at tipping pucks out of the air. So it's just like, it's a whole other thing for opposing goalies to worry about. Oh, no doubt. I mean, you know, yeah, Pavelsky incredible. I've never seen anybody tip the puck like this guy can do. And you're right.

With Brent Burns firing it, you just got to get in that radius if you're, if you're Pavlsky to create a pretty darn good scoring chance. Yeah. All right, Brett, a few quick hitting questions around the league before we, before we let you go. I'm kind of curious. Obviously, this is a tough question. I'm sure you loved all the teams you played on. But what was the best team you ever played on throughout your career?

Yeah, tough question because I think, you know, in the 94 team in Vancouver was an incredible group. we lose it in game seven to the Rangers and the Rangers had arguably an incredible a team that they manufactured to put together and we were kind of just a bunch of dogs

just a bunch of guys that were hardworking and didn't take no for an answer I mean just really that type of personality of group of guys so really fun team and then obviously the 2006 Cup team was the greatest team I ever played on just for many reasons you know you look at everything on the ice, no doubt, but then the way we worked and trained off the ice,

the way we pushed each other in the weight room and just the demand that we put on each other that way. And then obviously the way you love each other. Your wives love each other. The team does. And because you have that love for one another within the group and you care about, you know, making the guys around you the best that they can be, you have something spectacular. You have a championship team. And so those are the things that really you reflect upon. Yeah, you know, it's great to be the Stanley Cup champion, all those things. But you know what? For me, it's almost like as good to be able to say I played with a group of guys and a group of men that were so great as that. Those are the things you remember after your career is over. Yeah. It's an interesting

thing because, you know, there's no doubt that just on a human element level, like you are going to, any workplace, if you enjoy being around the people that you spend your entire day with, like chances are you're going to be happier and things are going to go better and work's going to be more productive. But I always wonder, especially in pro sports, where, you know, it's a little bit of a chicken and egg situation because I feel like if your team is really good and you're doing a lot of winning, chances are guys are probably going to get along even better as well, right? Yeah, it is.

It's kind of the chicken or the egg. I mean, no doubt about that, you know, when you have. have that sort of caring for one another, yeah, you're going to win games. And then when you win games, you care more about each other. But it's more than just that. I mean, you know, culture starts, it doesn't just get manufactured. You have to continue to nurture it. And believe in the guys that are in that locker room that are the ones that are really making

the difference of keeping that and gluing that team together. So the general manager and the coaching staff have to be, you know, have to have their fingers on the pulse of that team. and know the right guys to keep in that locker room and then to add to them as you start to get closer and closer to potentially winning a Stanley Cup. But it all starts with that culture internally. The reason why I ask about the best team you're on

is because you were obviously fortunate enough to make the Stanley Cup final on three different occasions. And I think this is applicable to this year's Shark's team but also the Penguins where I imagine that if you're playing so late into the summer, you know, it takes a real toll on your body physically and also just remind mentally And then I imagine it's a lot tougher to come back from day one the next season and play, just considering also just like the difference in intensity between, I imagine, the first couple weeks of the regular season versus what you just played in the Stanley Cup final.

No, absolutely. I think all the teams that go deep in the playoffs have a tough time of, first of all, letting their mind get away from the game of hockey for a few months and allowing it to rest. I mean, that's the biggest thing. And the physical rest is something that you can recover pretty quickly. As a matter of fact, a lot of guys probably don't like to take a lot of time off. At least I didn't like to take too much time off physically. But if that mental grind is what really catches up with you, where you really didn't have a chance to forget about the game of hockey,

you know, get the mind back up, wrapped around, you know, an 82 game, regular season schedule, and then going on a journey in the Stanley Cup playoffs. So I think, you know, all these players having, particularly San Jose and Pittsburgh, playing the Stanley Cup. and a lot of those players having to play in the World Cup and not really having a real normal training camp really threw things off, I think, for a lot of guys this year. And so, you know, a slow start for Pittsburgh

and then they got ramped up. I think, you know, San Jose had a slow start as well, and then now obviously kind of playing more of their style on a more nightly basis than they did at the start. So very difficult to do. It's that mental grind that it's so hard to try to fight through. But I think these players are kind of back in the mix now. Yeah, that makes sense.

You played for a number of different teams and a number of different coaches. And one thing I'm curious about is sort of the staying power and longevity for a coach in today's league because we often see that a lot of these coaches are around for a couple years and then the team starts losing. And the GM is quick to replace them and try to restart things with a new coach. And one guy who's sort of had an interesting time towards the end of his 10 years in various stops has been Peter Lavellette, who you play it under for a number of good years in Carolina. what are your thoughts on that in general in terms of whether like a coach's personality can sort of lend itself to to wearing down players eventually if you just kind of keep going with the same message and don't really change your style because we've heard of a guy like ken hitchcock for example who earlier in his career was sort of like that but then now in st louis has really kind of become more relaxed and and realize that it is a player's league and and you guys are younger so you just sort of need to treat them differently um yeah no i i think you know peter um

When, you know, he first got to Carolina, he had a different personality that I didn't think was really conducive to, you know, listening to players. And I think it didn't go well his first few months with Carolina. But then after the lockout and being around us over the course of that time, seeing the type of people we were and how serious we were about our job, I think he then changed. I mean, I thought he really recognized that we were professionals, that we weren't people that really needed to be poked and prodigod. work harder or do this and do that. It was more about how can I, how can I gather these guys together to make them believe that they're great people and great,

a great team. And I think, I think a good coach can recognize, you know, the weaknesses may be in the strengths of a group and make adjustments. I think just like a player, you know, I think there's not a year that went by for me that I didn't look at my own career

and say, okay, what was I lacking this year? What do I need to improve on? And then go take my time in the summer to, work on those things. And that's what allowed me to play over a thousand games. You know, I think coaches have to take that same mentality in the fact that they can't sit there and allow themselves to think that they know it all. And I think that's where a coach will get into some trouble

is to think they have all the answers. They don't want to lean on anybody around them. And therefore, they kind of alienate themselves. And in consequence, they get an attitude that is almost somebody that it's not healthy. Ultimately, you have to be able to lean on the people around you to make them and empower them to be great. And in that, trust them that you've got the right staff around you and that will help you and allow you to be a great coach and to guide the team,

tweak them where it needs to be tweaked. I think that's today's game. At least that's what I think it is. And I think peer lobby, that is able and capable of doing that, along with others. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, two final questions and I'll let you go. one, I know you're probably pretty biased with this, but is Patrick Marlowe a Hall of

Famer in your mind when he retires? Yeah, I think the things that he has done, you know, the numbers that he has put up are just incredible. And, you know, I like what Patrick Marlow has done now here the last, you know, this year and part of last year where he's accepted a different role. And I think at times in your career, you don't want to accept that role of, hey, I'm no longer maybe a top six forward. Everybody hates that top six line anyway or the top forward offenseman and yada, yada.

Everybody's important on a team. So it's brutal to say, but I'll say this. He has accepted a different role last year at the end of the year and this year, and he seems to be thriving at it. Him and Tomash Hurdle have, I think, played tremendous, been real consistent this year. And the numbers, if you really go and break down over the course of his career are just astronomical. And yes, I think he's capable of being a Hall of Fame player. Yeah, yeah. I mean, when it's all set and done, it's going to be 500 goals, 1,000 points. It's kind of tough to argue with those. And I understand the longevity versus peak argument, but I've always thought he's a player that's been wildly underappreciated. And, you know, it's interesting because you mentioned how he's adapted to this new role. But I think the even more impressive thing to me is, like, if you watch this guy play, he still skates like he's like a 25-year-old. Like guys like him and Jason Chimera just never cease to amaze me how they can keep flawlessly skating so quickly at this age without. whatever really kind of showing signs of slowing down in that regard.

Listen, I played a long time in this game, and I'm telling you what, the durability this guy has. I mean, he doesn't, obviously didn't play the same game that I had to play, which is on defense. And back in the day when, you know, even today's game, where defense gets back there and you're getting hit, I mean, you're not avoiding it. Particularly if you're a defenseman that goes back and it really says, hey, I'm going to go back and get that puck first, no matter what kind of beating I'm going to take. And that's the type of game I tried to play. But that being said, you know, Patrick Marlow has been incredibly durable over the course of his career.

And you have to be able to give him some props for that. Yeah. Last question. You can't save Ben Burns here because it's cheating. So the question is, who's your favorite defenseman to watch in today's NHL? Let's see here. Well, Eric Carlson from Ottawa is somebody that, you know, again, people I think criticize maybe his defensive play. but, you know, Norris Trophy winner.

And when you watch him live, and I had the opportunity, I think, a couple years ago, to call some games from inside the glass for NBC at ice level. And, you know, I think I may have played against him right at the beginning of his career. But that being said, you know, seeing him at ice level and be able to watch this guy, you know, extend shifts, stay out there long, he's got an iron lung somehow, and still be able to make plays late in a shift and get up in the play and just provide offense the way he can.

He's an exciting player for me to watch. But boy, the young talent right now, guys like Werenski, Seth Jones, and, you know, Acklat, and some of these young defense that I'd just love to watch is exciting for me as well just to see the game come as far as it has. Yeah, it seems like every night, regardless of who's playing, there's at least one or two guys who stand out in that regard.

Brett, thanks for taking the time to chat, man. Where can people check you out online, and what are you up to these days? Yeah, just at Brett Hediken is my Twitter handle, and you can find me there. And obviously, you're just doing Sharks Radio and NBC inside the glass on occasion as well. And that's where I can be found. Perfect. Well, once again, I appreciate you taking the time to chat,

and hopefully we'll be able to get you back on sometime down the road. You got it. Thanks, Dmiti, for having me. The Hockey PDOCast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at the soundcloud.com slash Hockeypedocast.