The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 135: Feeling Blue

Episode Date: February 2, 2017

Craig Custance joins the show to discuss what went wrong this season in St.Louis and whether the Blues were justified in their firing of Ken Hitchcock, why the Maple Leafs look like a team that could skip a few steps in their climb to the top, and what to expect from this year's trade deadline. Here’s a quick rundown of the topics covered: 2:51 Should the Maple Leafs try to win now? 10:20 What went wrong in St.Louis under Ken Hitchcock? 21:00 The Kevin Shattenkirk trade market 25:00 How will the expansion draft and upcoming draft class affect deals? 34:40 The Top 100 List Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, and Stitcher. All past shows can be found here listed in chronological order. Make sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews of the show are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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And joining me as someone that I haven't had on the show in quite some. time. It's my buddy Craig Custins. Greg, what's going on, man? Oh, nothing. You know, it's been too long, and I'm not sure, is it my fault or yours? Did I say something in the last one that really, like, rub you the wrong way? That's my only one has a show. Not at all, man. I think it was, we had a little bit of a conflict there with this being like a sports net show now and you, what the stuff you were doing with ESPN and it's an affiliation with DSM. But I mean, like, I was looking and you were, you were, I think one of my first guests. I think you were on, like, episode two or whatever, and we were previewing Connor McDavid.

David's debut and then I had you on like a year ago and it's been it's been since then pretty much so I'm pretty excited to have you back on. So did I say Connor was going to be a huge flop in the NHL and that this kid was overrated coming in? You know what's crazy about Connor McDavid? I feel like he got so much hype and I remember before he even played a game there was all those headlines like is he Connor McDavid better than Crosby question mark and it was like easy to make it was easy to make fun of people just getting carried away and you know the hype machine getting out of it control, but we're in, what, he's played like 60 or 70 games so far, a year and a half in, and I honestly, like, he's just blown me away by how good he already is.

Like, I was ready to believe that he'd be one of the best players right away just because of everything we heard about him, but I don't know, just, I guess seeing his believing and just amazing how good he is at pretty much everything at this point. Yeah, I don't think we could have overhyped him. And then the, and he's been hyped for years, so it was no real surprise. And I think the interesting thing is maybe on some level we understand. Hyped, and I know you've gotten into it, so I don't want to go down this path necessarily, but underheights Austin Matthews and who, I really believe there was a bigger gap between the two of

them than there is, and I still think Connor McDavid's a better player, but I don't think it's as big a gap as I initially thought. Yeah, it's a, it's a discussion. I still think like just Connor McDavid is just, I don't know, man, it's that speed and just everything. Like, it's, it's crazy how he's been able to just, the 5-1-5 game already. Like we see with young players, I mean, even like a guy like Patrick

Lainer, for example, who is scoring a ton of goals and contributing offensively, like he's had these rough patches in terms of the possession game and keeping the shot metrics up. But McDavid, just like flawlessly. I guess Matthews is a little bit like that, too, in terms of just how many shots he's generating and just the impact he's having

on his entire team. Yeah, no, it's, it's amazing. And to do it at center, too, like that's, you know, like Lione has been great, but, I mean, I, I put these other kids at another level just because they're doing it down the middle. And I was in Toronto when,

I think it was a Hall of Fame weekend when Mike Babcock said, you know, our hope is by December that Austin Matthews is an elite center in this National Hockey League. And he got there. And the beauty of it was,

I think, you know, Austin alluded to it, like, he was asked about that comment a couple weeks ago. And he's like, yeah, I think we're there. Like, he has so much confidence in his ability. And it doesn't even come off. as like bragging.

Like he just, he has a lot of faith in his ability to produce. And I don't know how you, I can't imagine doing something at 18 years old at this high level and having so much faith in your ability. So it's pretty, it's been amazing. That's nuts, man.

Well, okay, I think that's a good segue for us to talk about the least because it's pretty much the main reason I wanted to get you on. You wrote this thought provoking piece I thought last week about how, you know, generally when we see young teams like this that are led by guys on, just coming into the league where, you know, we preach patience.

and you've got to go through the growing pains before you're ready to make that next step and compete in the playoffs. But I think that the point you raise is a salient one, just that in today's NHL, it's so huge to strike while the iron's hot, particularly taking advantage of having top contributors on entry-level deals.

I mean, three years from now, when all these guys are due for gigantic raises, like the financial landscape, and their ability to maintain depth on the margins is going to be severely compromised. So I guess why not just take advantage of it now while you can? Yeah, that's a little bit behind the thinking. I just think, you know, the conclusion that I came to and I wrote about was this,

this Maple Leaf team is unique from most of the other rebuilding teams where I do think there's a process. And you don't want to rush it and you have to gather as many good young players. And you're going to go through some ups and downs and that, you get upset in the playoffs. And there's just kind of this long grind it takes to kind of get to the point where you're a Stanley Cup contender. I think they're unique, and I'd lump them together with the Crofty Penguins and that Taves and Kane Blackhawks, and that I don't think it's going to be a long process. I think they're capable within two years of making a Stanley Cup run. And just like the Blackhawks won in 2010, and that was Taves, I think it was his final year

on a century-level deal. I think Malton was still on an entry-level deal when the Penguins won in 2009. and in the cap system, you have this really minuscule window to surround this elite young talent with free agents and veterans before you're suddenly paying these guys. And that was one of the mistakes I thought Edmonton did.

You know, they immediately gave those other guys some big contracts and it was this long-term build. And it's like, if you really believe in your young players, you might as well surround them with high-end, expensive talent while they're on entry-level deals and then worry about it later. And with the kind of Blackhawks, Brian Campbell, the example, the kind of the parallel you draw,

where you bring in the guy, and then when you have to pay off to Matthews, Mitch Marner, then maybe you have to cut that guy loose. But in the meantime, win as much as you can. Well, yeah, I mean, we're seeing sort of the cautionary tale of how can go wrong with, you know, a team like the Islanders or I guess even the Tampa Bay Lightning to an extent. I mean, at least they made a couple of long playoff runs.

But it's one of those things where you can't just take it for granted that, you know, just because you have these young players that are still either in their prime or entering their prime, that you're going to one day win it. Like a lot of things change in the NHL, and you just never know whether it's injuries or whether just horrible luck or what have you. Something can go horribly wrong that you didn't really expect,

and all of a sudden you kind of missed on your shot. So I think that whenever you have this chance to do something special, like there's no real reason to wait. I feel like just go for it now and see what happens. Yeah, and I do want to clarify on some level because I'm not suggesting they trade a bunch of first round picks for the rentals of the deadline and bring in

Jerome McGillade or whatever guys that aren't going to be part of a process. But I do think they should and it's completely justified to trade draft picks or prospects to bring in a guy like Kevin Chattonk who you can then resign and he can be your Brian Campbell.

And like I keep drawing a parallel. This really was spurned by a conversation I had with John Torchetti who was an assistant coach with Chicago. when they won in 2010 and I grabbed him on the day he's now in Detroit and they were playing the Leafs that night

and I just said look I'm starting to think these leaves are like the Blackhawks and penguins I go like you know is this like crazy and he said absolutely not but he stressed he said look they may have their cane and taves and they do have their cane and and Taves and Marner and Matthews but the Blackhawks don't win

without Brian Campbell they don't win without Marion Hosa what that you know that the Marion Hosa taught Patrick Kane how to play a 200-foot game and defend a little bit more it gave him that you know secondary scoring you need to win us down the cup he said Brian Campbell what he did completely sparked their transition game gave the younger players the confidence to skate the puck out of trouble and and play with speed and some of the things they weren't necessarily doing until Brian Campbell arrived and so I do think Toronto is in that spot now where you can have those kind of big secondary pieces.

Yeah, I mean, and also those Blackhawks teams, like I think the thing that they made them special was just the legendary depth. I mean, even beyond guys like Campbell and Hosa, you go on down the list. Like, remember all the guys that they wound up having to just give away to the thrash was basically like, I mean, like the bufflins and the Verstiegs and Browler and you go, Patrick Sharp, you go on and on down the list. I mean, it's, you know, it's one thing to have the top guys

and they're obviously the ones that are going to sort of drive the, drive the bus or really move the needle for you, but like it's in the playoffs, especially, it's those kind of depth guys stepping up out of nowhere that is ultimately going to make or break your chances. Well, for sure. And maybe some of those guys exist now, even watching the Maple Leafs, they're getting contributions from all four lines. I mean, we don't have a third line with Boland, Verstieg, and Ladd, like the Blackhawks did.

But I think they do have, I like their forward groups. I don't have a real big issue with, I don't even know if they need a marionosa type player at this point. Obviously, it's their defense that you struggle with. But going back to Blackhawk, they had a conversation with Joe Quendal this summer, and he said, we were talking about that 2010 team, and he said, you know, if you ran the numbers on what the players in that Blackhawks were worth, kind of in their prime, on all those teams, they're off the charts.

And I ended up doing it. I was working on a book with them. And I ended up adding up what each of those guys was worth when they kind of finally got their payday, and it would have been the biggest payroll in the history of the league. Like, there was no, it was, it was kind of this confluence of all these things happening in Chicago. And what makes it blackharts so impressive is that they, you know, obviously we've talked about

this, but they dumped all those guys and then ran it back a couple years later. Yep. No, that's insane. But it just goes. It's going to go in phases. Like, it's not a linear thing with the Maple Leafs or some of these other rebuilds. Or even Edmonton, you could lump into this. Right.

It's not just this slow progression. So maybe you make a push and then you've got to tear down a little bit. Then you make another push and you've got to tear down. But it's all built around trying to win with this great young core that I think is as good as any. Yeah. No, I think that's definitely fair. So you mentioned Shaddenkirk. I think it's a good segue for us to talk a little bit about the blues.

They made some noise today with firing Ken Hitchcock. And you wrote a piece about it. I feel like when I was reading it kind of, especially in the first couple paragraphs, it read more like a eulogy than anything else. You were like talking about him in the past tense. So it was a bit... You have to go read it again. But...

No, but you made some interesting points about sort of, you know, the shelf life of Ken Hitchcock and his career in that regard. And I reading it remembered when I had Todd Warner on this podcast. And I remember he was sitting right across from me in my living room. And when I brought up Ken Hitchcock, the face he made, I don't think I'll ever forget it. kind of like he was taken aback. I don't know if he was just a bit scarred by his experience playing under Hitch and Philly for a brief time there or what. But it's interesting because I do think that from everything you've heard over the past handful of years, it does seem like he made some adjustments

to just the way he interacted with his players. Like he was always known as this kind of hard ass. They would always scream at his players and was just a nightmare to play for. And that's why we saw his 10 years generally end in pretty ugly manners in his various stops. But if felt like the past few years in St. Louis, he'd sort of made a concerted effort to just, I guess, let his players play a little bit more. I don't know. Is that fair? Or do you think that it kind of reversed course towards the end there? No. What I was really trying to drive home in that column Ken Hitchcock was to get to a point where you're a successful Ken Hitchcock team, it takes a few years and it's really hard but

ultimately what he's trying to do is kind of drive home what he wants out of the team to the point where he can then turn it over to the players and he's not in their ear every year and every single day and he's not bugging him to do the block the shots and go to the net

and win the battles in the corner every day. The ideal is that you know he kind of drives that home and maybe to an extreme to the floor drives the players crazy but they do understand that this is what it takes to win. And then what he wants to do ultimately is turn it over to the leadership group.

And we've had that conversation in the past. And he said, really, it got to that ideal moment where he had complete trust in the leaders kind of back and forth. And they trusted him three times in his career when they won the Stanley Cup in Dallas, when they went to the Eastern Conference final year before the lockout in Philadelphia. And he said they got to that point last year with the St. Louis Blues, where he had complete faith, where guys like David back, and Troy Brower, they were running the room,

and they were sending the message of what he wants so that he didn't have to be Ken Hitchcock and breathing down their necks every second. And so then what happened was, obviously, Bacchus is gone, Browler's gone, Steve Ott's gone, the guy that maybe was reinforcing the message. You're starting from scratch with a new captain,

and now it's Petriamelo, some young stars, James Schwartz, and Robbie Fabry and Vladimir Tarasenko, and you're doing it with a one-year contract with the next coach in waiting on the bench. And you're asking to do really hard things that they don't want to do. And I just think that was a recipe for failure.

And it really seems obvious now, kind of after the fact. You said, oh, boy, this was never going to work. But I just, you know, I think that's why it failed, is you removed that leadership group that had taken years to kind of to understand the message

and then can convey it on their own. And you were starting over on some level and you were doing it, knowing you weren't going to be there a long time if you can't hitchcock and obviously fail. So, I mean, in hindsight now, they obviously, you know, they made that long playoff run last year, made it to the Western Conference finals. And then in the summer, they kind of made a move that they were at least keeping an eye on the future when they basically just traded Brian Elliott away so they wouldn't lose them for nothing

in the expansion draft or in free agency. Is that like, should that have been a sign that they should have also just made the switch to Mike Yo at that point rather than trying to kind of half-ass and do one more year with this group and with Hitchcock, or is that just sort of like revisionist history at this point? No, it may be it's unfair to Doug Armstrong, but I think that is the move. Like, when you're turning the page so dramatically from these veterans to this new group, you are better off wiping the slate clean and saying, can Hitchcock maximize this group? We got as far as we were going to go, and now it's time to start fresh because,

but like, I think at the same level, you know, can Hitchcock maximize this group? Hitchcock earned the opportunity to come back if he wanted to. Took him to the Western Conference finals. You're not going to fire your coach at that point. So it was such a tough spot because when I say all this about kind of the turnover of leadership, I say it in full support of what Doug Armstrong did. I don't think that David Beckett's contract long term is going to be a good one for Boston. I don't think the Troy Brower contract is going to be a great one for Calgary long term.

You know, Steve Ah, that's a roster stopper young guy that you're bringing in. So if you look at each one of those decisions on an individual basis, you can completely support them and they make sense. But some of the decisions was what we saw happen in St. Louis. So maybe in retrospect the right move was to completely turn the page, including the coach. But if Ken Hitchcock wanted to come back, he had earned that right. So I'm not sure how you handle it. Right. Yeah, it's a tough situation.

I mean, if you're running the blues now, are you making any big moves? Like, are you kind of expediting the process and trying to trade Shantark for whatever you can get now? Or, I mean, it's tough because you look at the landscape and despite everything that's gone wrong and how horrible their goal tendings been, they're still holding on to a playoff spot. And I don't think that there's anyone, you know, in the Western Carpents or especially in the Central Division that is, you know, so terrifying at this point that you wouldn't want to play them in the playoffs. Like, I think it's pretty wide open. And so they're still technically in it. And as we just talked about with the Leafs, where it's like if you have a chance to make some noise,

you kind of have to at least give yourself a chance to do so rather than just blowing it up. Like, I don't know. What are you doing in the next month or so if you're running the Blues? Yeah, I'm selling. And because I just think they're in a completely different part of their development from the Maple Leafs. And I think they're a little bit different than some of the teams in the West.

Like I was, before this all happened, I was going to make kind of a pitch for the Sharpe. in the wild to be a little bit more aggressive than we're hearing they are in terms because for the reasons that you said, the West is wide open this year. There's not a Black Hawks or Kings in the way so that if you have a team that's playing well and into it, this may be the year for a breakthrough. Almost the ideal, and it never was going to happen. But if you're St. Louis, like, if you could have brought back, Bacchus and Brower and all those

days on a one more year deal, you know, and just said, look, we almost made it. There's an opening in the West. Let's go for it, and let's do it on a short-term deal. I mean, players, it's not a realistic idea, but that would have been the ideal because they could have pushed. But once you turn that page, you've got to almost just say, okay, this is a year in transition for the Blues. And that means also we have to trade Kevin Chattonk, because you can't let those other guys walk, and then you can't be in between. You have to make a call, and the call was that this is going to be a transition year,

the moves they made in the summer. So with that in mind, I think you trade Kevin Chattonkirk. I think what this firing does now is it frees up the ability for Doug Armstrong to say, I don't need a player who can help me now. We're completely transitioning. So I'm just going to try to get the biggest return possible for Kevin Chattonkirk, whether that be prospects, draft picks, or a guy that can play on the roster. Whereas had they been world beaters this year,

he would have had to have done a Kevin Chattankirk trade that brought back a roster player that helps him now. and those are really hard to make at the deadline because if you're a good team trading for Kevin Chattonkrick, you're not trying to give up anything off your roster. So in some level, this move and kind of declaring this transition you're freezing up to have even more flexibility with Shaddenk. Yeah, I mean, the worst spot you can be in an NHL these days

is just in the middle there, right? Where it's like you kind of need to the side where you want to go and then just firmly do it and see where you wind up because it's like if you're kind of like half-assing it where you're like, oh, we're going to keep these guys, but we're not going to do this. and that, it's like, all of a sudden, you're just, you have nothing to show for your efforts, basically. Yeah, I know, and there's, well, I mean, I'm living in Detroit here, you know, where there's fans that are so frustrated with the Red Wings trying to push for, you know,

making, getting the last spot in the playoffs, keeping the streak alive. You know, there's, I think there's, I know there's an appetite among the fan base here to, to, to, to rebuild. And, and, but at the same time, you know, these teams, uh, you know, When you start going down to rebuilding path, it's easy for all of us to say on the outside. When you start stripping down, it sometimes it becomes the spiral you never get out of.

And I know that was, you know, we used to be critical of the devils and Lou La Miroillo because he was kind of, he had that same mentality where he didn't want to lose, he didn't want to strip down, didn't want to rebuild. It was trading for Tori Schneider when, you know, he had an aging roster. And then, you know, you bring in Ray Sherrill,

who is, you know, doing the proper thing. But, you know, it's going to be a while for that. team to get back. And some teams, Carolina, has been rebuilding forever in Arizona. And it becomes a long, arduous process that you got to be careful what you ask for as a fan sometimes.

Yeah, I mean, pretty much if, you know, you got to basically get a McDavid or a Matthews makes it a lot easier. Otherwise, it's going to be pretty tough to turn it over to a new core. Well, it's the thing. You've got to tear it down in the right years. Yep.

And then in those right years, you have to get lucky in the lottery. And so I look at, you know, even Buffalo on some level, just, you know, did the right thing, tore it down and, you know, got a good player in Jack Eichol, and they've got some good pieces, but I mean, I don't think, I think

even Savers fans would agree that the leaves have spent half them. And part of that is just doing the timing, part of it's getting lucky in the lottery. The Oilers, I mean, that was a disaster until they get McDavid. And so, yeah, it's just not,

it's not like a two-year thing where you're like, hey, we're going to rebuild and we're going to get a franchise sentiment, and we're going to be back. It's, you need a lot to go right. One final thing on Shaddenkirk before we move on. Yeah. You know, we've heard all these possible landing spots for him and where he could go and where he's going to want to sign a summer.

But I'm kind of a bit surprised at one angle I haven't really seen anyone discuss with this is like, has anyone ever even broached the topic of potentially signing Shattonkirk long term and moving Petrangelo instead? Or is that just like a complete non-starter? Well, I mean, based on conversations I've had, that hasn't been an option. Like there was, I was talking to somebody there was kind of a rumor just on, you know,

that the blues were going to make a push to sign them. And so, you know, another team that said they'd heard that and I checked into it. And there had been zero conversation on the contract when I checked in. This was a few weeks ago. So really, I saw no appetite from the blues perspective. And really, if you have to choose one,

I like them both, but I'm, you know, if you're making me choose between Petra, Angelo, who's already locked up under, I don't know, his contract off hand, but I have to assume it's going to be a better number than what Chattentirk's going to get on the open market. Yeah, I'm looking at right now. So Petraando is at $6.5 million through 1920. Like, that's a really nice number for a guy that you can consider a franchise defenseman. Shattonkirk's going to get a monster deal.

Do you think he gets something? That's going to be higher than that. Do you think he get something comparable to what Keith Yandall got last summer? Yeah, I think he gets a Yandle deal. Yeah. And, you know, and because who else is like him? He hits the market. Like, who's a free agent defenseman that you can get that does what he does?

And, you know, that's the other thing. Like, we, you know, we're kind of treating Chatton Kirk as this great player. And he's a good defenseman, and I like him. You can play on my team, but he's not flawless. And I know there was some frustration on the Blues coaching staff at the time with the way he played. And there was games in the playoffs where he really struggled. last year. And it got overshadowed by the blue's success.

But, you know, he'll make some mistakes. And he's such a, he's that rare talent where he's providing all that offense and can spark a transition game. He's that modern defenseman. He's a right-handed shot. So it makes up for some of the flaws in his game. But he's going to get, he's going to get a deal that, you know, that's probably going to make it, isn't going to be great down the road.

But that's how, it's what you've got to do to get those players. Well, the only reason I brought it up is because, like, just from a value, based perspective. Like, I feel like if they made Alex Petrangelo available right now, I can't even imagine what kind of return they'd get on that, right? Like, I feel like Petrangelo is just so well regarded in the hockey community by, quote, unquote, hockey people. And I don't think that the difference between him and Chattonkirk is that different, like,

compared to what you'd get if you traded one or the other at this point. So I guess that's the only reason I brought it up. Yeah, so, right. So you sit there, like a best case scenario you return for Shattonkirk at this point, you know, is kind of the traditional rental. about, you know, an A prospect, a first round pick, maybe a roster player if you're really trying to hit a home run. Whereas Petro Angelo, holy cow, you're right.

Like, I came to, like, when was a 27-year-old number one defenseman available? I mean, if Adam Larson gets you Taylor Hall, what does Petronoanjo get? So, yeah, I think that's, in terms of just asset management, the return you would get for Petro Angelo would be so much higher, but then you've got to sign Chatton Kirk. That's true. And, you know, you're tying up probably another $2 million a year in the cap hit for times eight then at that point. So whatever the number is, I haven't broken down Shatton numbers yet.

But it's an interesting thought, but I just think it's so hard to get that top pair of defensemen that once you do, and you have a reasonable contract, you keep them. Yeah, that's fair. So you mentioned the return. Like I know you wrote recently about the trade deadline and sort of whether first rounders are going to be more available. And I know it's generally considered to be perceived a pretty weak draft relatively speaking, at least compared to the past couple years. I think that do you think we will see more of more packages like that made? And I think the other question is at the trade deadline, do you think that we're going to see teams making moves keeping a closer eye on the expansion draft?

Whether it's, you know, I look at a team like the Flames, for example, or even the oilers. and they have spaces up front where they could conceivably take a useful forward that they can wind up protecting because of just how their roster is shaking out right now, whereas some other teams might be desperate to trade guys for whatever they can and, you know, scared that they might lose them for nothing instead. So do you think we're going to see some of those kind of wonky trades that we otherwise wouldn't have seen in years past? Yeah, I've asked that question a lot of GMs because I was convinced that there would be more deals just as teams try to line things up. And, you know, the kind of the sense I got from guys, and, you know, this may change, but was that you're just, you're worried about right now if you're a contending team. And let's say you're the Minnesota Wilde, and you're concerned you're going to lose a defenseman in the expansion draft,

which hasn't structured right now they're going to, a pretty good defenseman. I don't think you're making a trade right now to dump one to get something in return to prevent that because you're trying, now you have this opening to possibly win us down the cup or make a long playoff. run. I think you just deal with that in the off season and I think we're going to see more trades in the off season. This team's try to restructure. I have another GM say, if I'm worried about

losing a guy, then maybe the move is to acquire more of that type of player so it doesn't hurt me as much. And, you know, so if you're worried about losing a defense, and go out of defensemen so that when you lose them, it doesn't, it's a little more painless. So I do think there'll be moves made, but I

don't think that's going to happen to later. But to get back to your initial thought, for sure the consensus is that this drop is down to the path. Certainly at the top, there's not a Matthews or McDavid, probably not even, you know, an Ikel or Linae. So guys I talked to said, sure, we would trade our first round pick, but who's that, who are we going to trade it to? Like, who are the sellers? And that, to me, is our biggest issue right now with the market is. We don't have any, you have Arizona and Colorado. Other than that, you don't have any sellers. So I think teams are just,

definitely willing to move the first round picks, but they're not willing to do it for for nobody. Yeah, I mean, that's a good point. It doesn't really get brought up that often. Just, you know, the point system right now, just the way it's at with the loser point, like teams like the Canucks and even like an islanders or who have you are like within striking distance of a playoff spot. So they're not necessarily the conventional sellers, whereas they might have been in years past. So it's like, if you're a lot of these teams, you can kind of talk yourself into just either standing pad and not really doing anything and seeing how the rest of the season shakes out,

and that means that teams might be more apprehensive about making those types of deals. Yeah, parity is going to kill the trade deadline, I'm afraid, this year. Because the difference is you don't have the tanking teams. You just don't have teams that are saying we want the number one overall picks. So every single team, and whether they'll admit it now or not went into the season trying to win. And that wasn't always the case. and so here we are a month away or whatever it is from the trade deadline and they're still not I'm looking at the East standings there's still not a team you can say 100% they're going to declare themselves sellers and

and I you know I think ultimately teams like Detroit and Buffalo maybe New Jersey will end up doing the right thing and kind of you have some realists at GM in those spots and go do what they have to do like I know if Tim Murray and Buffalo like he's not going to do anything that subtracts from the long term success the sabers. Like if they're out of it, then you move, you know, a Kulikov or whatever. You do what you have to do because he's still trying to build a long-term winner there.

The Detroit one's an interesting one just because of the playoff streak. And I don't know how close they have to be to a playoff spot before Ken Holland says, okay, we're going to sell. Yeah. Yeah, no, they should definitely not be buyers. That's for sure. I think that would be pretty catastrophic at this point. Well, I think we're, because,

of all of this. I think there's an opening, if you're a GM, there's an opening to declare early and say, I'm a seller. And right now, if you only have Colorado and you only have Arizona as real bona fide sellers, then jump in now while it's a complete seller's market and say, you know what, we're going to move early and maybe we move Thomas Vannock if you're the, you know, Detroit or one of these other teams and just say, this is, the time is now because if you wait three weeks, it may there may be more clarity and you may have more competition on the sellers market so I think there's an advantage to striking early in that front man I was just thinking about how you said every team was trying to win heading into this season and then it's like if that's the case man

what do you what do you make of this Colorado avalanche season that's like it just it's it's frightening but don't you think like there was nobody in Colorado before this year saying this is the rebuilding here like that was this is a team that you know Atlanta Skog and McKinnon and they thought they were on the rise and you know the whole Patrick Woffing threw them for a loop but they certainly weren't trying to finish

last. No and well that's the thing like the uh those Sabres teams that were tanking for McDavid in particular were worse but they were getting surprisingly good goaltending from guys like Michael Lloydworth for example right where it's like the goaltending is completely bottomed out for the avalanche here

and they're horrible at every other position so it's like it's just a recipe for them I think they're going to be one of the least successful teams in recent history this year. I mean, they're on pace for just like, I think, like, 50 points or something like that, which just seems like somehow impossible to do in today's NHL. Yeah, and that's what makes it so much more concerning if you're an Avalanche fan because it was unintentional. You know, Toronto, if we go back and look, I bet you if we really wanted to trace some of the moves they made

in terms of calling up HL goalies and players, they had to work hard to get where they were at the bottom of the standings. Land Austin Matthews, and nobody's complaining and, you know, but like that's the thing with Colorado to me. Like Arizona's been bad this year, but like if Arizona really was, and I think

they wanted to see growth, so I think there's definitely disappointment in their season, no doubt about it, but they could have kept Dylan strong. Like, they could have done a couple of things that they really were trying to push this year to make this year a little bit more respectful. They definitely had the bigger picture kind of as the focus. Whereas Colorado,

they were trying to win and failed miserably. You're pretty dialed in. What are you hearing about the Bruins and the Claude Julianne front? Because it seems like, I don't know, it's died down a little bit here. I feel like last week I woke up every morning just checking my phone waiting to see if something get broken overnight or early in the morning. Like are they, is it over now? Like, or is it?

No, it's never over. It's like that's been going on since they want to stay on the cup. And they lost Montreal in the first round. game, was it game of seven, that he was gone. Claude Julian was gone. And for whatever reason, you know, there's, like, he just hasn't won everybody over in the organization. I don't know what else he has to do. And the only reason you're not hearing it is because they won three straight games. If they lose the next three, I promise you, it's going to be like, oh, Claude Julian's on

a hot seat again. And, like, I was so happy to see Claude Julian stick up for himself the other day, or I guess it was the other week now where he basically said, look, this, you know, there's some roster concerns here too. and as good of players as they do have, they don't have the depth that they used to have. And they're sitting in third place in the Atlantic. I think he's done a perfectly fine coaching job there. And anybody you replace Claude Julian with

is going to be a downgrade at coach. But, I mean, if I'm at some point, I'm just saying, look, just do it. Like, let me go somewhere I wanted. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like that Vegas job, for example. I mean, it's crazy to me just that, I get where, you know, when things become a bit stale and you want to make a change just for the sake of livening things up a bit, but it's like, you look at this roster, it's what is he, what is he supposed to do with it? I mean, they're top lines amazing. Zadino Char is still good, although he's not really what he used to be. And Rask is a perfectly fine goaltender. But like beyond that, I mean, it's just, I think they're a fringe playoff team to begin with, and they're a fringe playoff team now. And I think that that's a perfectly reasonable spot for them to be based on the talent that Don Sweeney's given him to work with.

right they are who we thought they were yes exactly the ruins are exactly where it's not like they're in last place or or wherever and you know they're trying to do a hard thing where you know when you trade luci and you make some of these the moves they've made where they were trying to add in young talents um well the young talent they're adding isn't going to be ready for a year or two you know light of maybe like a knock of boy so um they're going to get that depth my only concern is that so i you know I do think they have some good young pieces coming in Boston. My concern is that you're losing some prime years off of Bergeron and you're losing the last couple years of Charra. And it's so hard to get centers like that in defensemen that you need to win a Stanley Cup. And now we're going to look back and let's have been to miss the playoffs here. There's going to be this window of a few years where players with, you know,

Hall of Famers where those years are lost. And I think that's got to be troubling if you're a Bruins fan. Yeah, that's a bummer. Okay, one final thing before I let you go. We had the top 100 players of all time released a few days ago and celebrated. I know everyone loves lists, and I get why the NHL did it for marketing and branding purposes and to get people talking. But what were your thoughts about the list, just if you're actually going to take it seriously and just look at it from a critical evaluation level? Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I wasn't getting too worked up about it.

My biggest issue is that they didn't rank them. Like, I was like, what a... They really sucked all the fun out of it when they did it that way. You know, just from a modern player perspective, like I was... I was, you know, Duncan Keith was a little surprising to me, his inclusion over some other defensemen that are playing right now. And, you know, I maybe would have put Char on that spot. I thought, you know, I'm certainly in a camp that Joe Thornton had to be on that list.

And I don't know why he wasn't. But, you know, I know there's some people saying, you know, Pierre Palat, I don't know, like, I have no point of reference from guys that played in the 60s. So it's a hard list of compile. And what I'm glad is, to me it was just fun that it made this All-Star Weekend such a unique experience to have all those guys around. So like aside from griping about the list, I'm glad they did it because it was so cool to have those guys around to watch the interaction with, you know,

Connor McDavid and Sidney Crosby and to see how they basically were awestruck. you know watching these legends walk by and like Dimitri it was crazy you go you get off the elevator at the hotel and there's Bobby Orr sitting there with a coffee and there's Nicholas Lodstrom you know with his wife and there's all these

these legends just hanging around like it wasn't like they were sequestered somewhere and it was just it was like you know feel of dreams or something it was pretty wild and you know I'm glad they did that yeah I mean Nicholas m's looking pretty good these days I feel like he would step into the lineup and be

Detroit's second best defenseant right now. He was second. I don't know. I don't know. My cream is still pretty good. I'll give him that. My green has a good year. But yeah, no, I, you know, Nick is he's a perfect human. He could still play. He can play forever.

Yeah, he's amazing. All right. Craig, what are you, I don't want you to spoil anything necessarily, but what are you working on? What angles are you looking at to dive into next? Oh. Nothing. Well, like, we're just, it's trade deadline season. So I'm, you know, we're going to dive in, you know, full bore into that.

Now the officer game has passed at thespan.com and on ESPN Insider. And, you know, we get, we get into it. I mean, this is such a fun time of year. I'm really hoping there's a few more sellers than there are now because it's going to make it one of those days where we're talking about the 20, 28 Olympic team or whatever if they don't, if they don't make some trades. But, you know, that's, that's where the focus. right now. There's going to be so much speculation and rumors. And, you know, I love that stuff. I think it's fun. Yeah. I think I'm going to file a customs correspondence question to you right now.

I'm just, I'm always, I'm always just fascinated and just blown away by like how you're able to to provide, like kind of be critical of if something's not going well and you don't really pull any punches. But at the same time, you seem to not offend anyone or burn any bridges. Like you still get all the money quotes. I just, I don't know. I guess it's all that, uh, all that training and expertise in years of the job because it's something I still personally know I struggle with quite a bit. It's like we're not using the right words so you can still kind of keep the door open for conversations later, but not really kind of writing fluff pieces and stuff like that. Yeah, right, because you still have to call, these guys have to answer the

phone. So you can't just crush people. I, you know, and I just think if people think you're being fair and you're not just taking cheap shots or low-hanging fruit or even personal shots, I think sometimes you see something, but wow, that kind of cross the line. Right. Like, people understand, if you're a coach and things aren't going well, there's going to be a critical analysis of your team.

And I think it helps. Like, you know, what I try to, you try to have numbers back it up. You try to have, you know, sources outside. A lot of times, like sometimes I'll let a source do the dirty work for me and, you know, if it's another scout or GM, and that's where the criticism is coming from.

But I just think if you're fair to people, these guys, you know, people are pretty realistic. They understand that there's going to be some criticism of, you know, especially when things are going sideways. But you just can't take cheap shots. That's why I'm out. Yeah, that's fair. That's a wise advice.

All right, Craig. Thanks for taking the time to chat, man. I'm glad we finally got to do this after taking such a long break. Yeah, I've got to get back up the standings on appearances. You've fallen way behind that. The Johnson is not cold. Yeah, Chris Johnson's killing you here. He's killing you with the beard game,

man, he's killing you with the PDO cast appearances. Yeah, his beard game is is stronger than mine, but who's in the top three? Which will the meterboard look like right now? I feel like Mike Johnson's pretty high. I feel like you're also going to have a tough time beating him, although he also doesn't have a beard, so you got him there. Okay.

All right, well, we'll have to just do, we'll have to go on a bed or like every other week until I catch you at least Mike Johnson. It's my pleasure, man. I'm looking forward to it. Let's check back in closer to the trade deadline and kind of figure out where everyone's at. Cool.

Thanks, Dimitri. Okay. Talk to you, man. The Hockey PDOCast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockey pdiocast.