The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 141: Evolve or Be Left Behind

Episode Date: February 21, 2017

Kelly Hrudey joins the show to discuss how much the goaltending position has changed since he played it, the changes he needed to make along the way to stay in the league for a long time, and whether he wishes he came around during a different era. 1:20 Change in height requirement for goalies 7:15 Needing to adapt to have longevity in the league 15:15 Trials and tribulations of being a goalie in the 80s 19:30 Dominik Hasek's case for being the best ever 23:00 Doing video work to analyze goalie play 26:00 On goalies impacting shot attempts 29:05 Favourite current Goalie to watch 34:30 Jump from playing in the NHL to media work Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. All past shows can be found here listed in chronological order. Make sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews of the show are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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My name is Dimitri Filipovich. And joining me as a first-time guest, Kelly Rudy. Kelly, what's going on, man? Well, I'm just chilling. I'm in Nashville. I worked on the weekend, of course, in Toronto, as I normally do. And now I'm following the flames for a few games here. And I had a day off in Nashville yesterday and one again today.

So it's a good life. Yeah, I spent a week in Nashville back in December. It was the first time I'd been. And it lived up to all the hype. It was such an amazing city. Absolutely. You know, it's different, though, Dimitri, because previously I've come here,

with some of my hockey friends or my wife has joined me previously as well. And it's so much better when you have friends to go out on the town than because I was by myself last night. And although I still had a good time, it's not the same going into some of those country bars and honky tonks by yourself. But don't feel badly for me. I still got through. I still have good enough time.

Yeah, it sounds like you had an okay time. So I was watching the game you and Rick Ball did a few weeks back when the flames were hosting the National Predators, and you guys flashed this, which I thought was a really jarring graphic about how much the goaltending landscape has changed over the years since you were in the league, just in terms of like a baseline height requirement for the position.

And, I mean, the conversation was obviously brought on by UC Saros' play, who, I mean, he's been brilliant. He wasn't that game and he has been all year, but it seems like in today's NHL, he's just a massive outlier. I mean, he's listed at like 5-11 and the only other sub-six-foot guys in the league this year have been Jonas and Roth, Yarrow Halak, and Anton Hudobin. And the other thing all those guys have in common is they've really struggled and been demoted to the

HL at various times. So I think you're the perfect guy to kind of expand on this topic, considering that you were listed under six for yourself during your playing days. But obviously, while you were in the league, it was a much different landscape. Yeah, there's no question. I mean, I was told, geez, I'm going to go back, I don't know, five, ten years ago when I started getting reports from teams saying that they don't even ask their scouts to go look at a guy that's under 6-2 anymore. And that number I hear is getting even higher.

So although to me I find that a problem, I find that to be, to a certain degree, lazy scouting. If you look at, you can find a guy like Soros and there must be other good goalies that are under 6 feet that deserve an opportunity simply because they're talented enough and not just based on. size. I've seen a lot of big goalies also, and they don't perform as well as you'd like also. So I think it's not a perfect landscape, and it's not a perfect formula to say, hey,

the guy that we want has to be this size or taller. I think that's just, that's not right. So that's why I'm really happy for the guy Soros, that he's had that kind of success, because it's proving that you can at any size be qualified.

Yeah, I remember in the 90s, Sean Burke was kind of considered like the extreme, right? He was like one of the tallest guys. I remember watching him play and thinking like, well, this guy's so lanky compared to everyone else. And now you look back at it. He was listed at 6'4 and that seems like it's kind of the norm these days. But I'm glad you brought up the scouting component of it because I just wonder how much

that size bias affects those developmental opportunities for those guys at the lower levels because, I mean, if you're a smaller guy, you basically have to be like an otherworldly athlete or you're just not really going to get legitimate looks from scouts. teams, I feel like. Well, and to that point, it just seems to me, if you are by NHL standards, an undersized goaltender, then you

should play the position a little bit differently. As an example, what drives me absolutely crazy are they all the high, short side shots that go in on goaltenders? And I understand the theory that they're applying to it, that if they go down

and they, on their knees, and they expose the top, if you're a taller guy, hopefully you're tall enough that you still cover those short-side goals. But the shooters are more talented than they've ever been in the NHL. They're more accurate than they've ever been, and they just wait for that opportunity, then they still roof at short-side. And that's frustrating to me, but my point about the smaller guy, then in all likelihood you couldn't play that way,

because that would clearly expose you even more so. So I think that we're seeing a slowly, we're seeing guys, stay on their feet just a hair longer. And to me, that's just smart. I think every situation you have to read. And it's not just what your goalie coat says. In this situation, you're playing the odds. I think that's taking away what the position really requires,

which is the ability to read a play. And not just here's a standard policy or a way that I'm going to play based on the odds. I think that's, you could be far more effective if you just read a play and did what comes naturally. Right. And I think the perfect example for that for me in the reason past was a guy like Anders Limbach who I remember there was a time when, you know, he was playing that similar role of Soros is playing now as a backup to Pecoranay, but he was also just like freakishly tall.

And at the time, the Tampa Bay Lightning, for example, talked themselves into paying a premium for him and trying to make him into their number one guy just because he sort of fit that massive build. And I feel like, you know, as soon as he got there, it just became apparent that he didn't really have that much going for. other than being really tall. And as you mentioned, NHL shooters are so good that unless you have the technique and you're able to adapt, like you're going to get picked apart by them eventually.

Absolutely. He's the number one guy that we, I think we all bring up. Height is great again if you're good. But if you're not very good at all, it doesn't matter how tall you are. And boy, kind of unfairly, though, for him. Like, you're right.

People were talking about him, raving about him. He's going to be the next great one. and that was kind of unfair too and put a lot of pressure on him and didn't allow him a lot of time to develop and see if he ever could turn out to be anything. So that's the other thing. You look at some of these guys and you're so quick to say, okay, well, he's tall, he looks big and athletic and he's going to be able to progress quickly into this position,

whether it's a number one guy or really effective number two. But maybe the best example of having patience is Markstrom. And I guess there would be others, But Markstrom to me, he was a sure star in the making, right? And that it certainly didn't happen. It's really taken a long time. Now, finally, in Vancouver, they're able to develop them properly and look where he's gotten to. Now, I'm a big fan of his now.

I think that he potentially will be a really strong number one down the road. And what I love about what his situation is right now is that he's getting pushed from Ryan Miller. That's a perfect combination right there where he's learning. about battling and how you have to compete every single day and prepare properly. And Miller has done that for him. He's really pushed him. Yeah, there's no doubt about it. Listen, you had the good fortune of sticking around in the league and playing well into

your 30s and at the risk of making you feel a bit old and dating you. For people that know, no, you were 37 in your final season in the league, which is impressive in my mind. But I think that you can speak to this, but I imagine one of the reasons you were able to find that kind of longevity and stay around for as long as long as. as you did was you were self-aware enough to realize you couldn't really just keep playing the same way. I imagine that, you know, what you're able to do certain things physically, at least while you're in your early 20s, and then once you get to the later stages of your career, unless

you're changing the ways you're preparing for games or seasons or just whatever, how you're working out or how you're eating, like I imagine that if you don't make those changes, it's going to be tough to have that longevity in the league. without question. I think that when you look back, again, when I was a youngster, when I was 17 to 19, my dietary habits would have been terrible simply based on, first of all, I didn't have a lot of money, so I couldn't afford the proper foods, and I didn't know much better anyways. And I like nachos and cheese and hot dogs and all that kind of stuff.

So when you're in that sort of environment, that's all you get. so you're not getting the most nutritious food for optimum performance. But then when I went into the minors, I played two full years in Indianapolis again, away from home, not making the best choices, not sure, you know, what's the best fuel for my body. And then when I finally got to the NHL, when I was 22 years old, then I started to see the better athletes, the guys taking more care of themselves, although the game is still in transition.

I mean, let's not joke or let's not fool anybody. We still went to a pub after most practices, and we did that kind of stuff, which never happens anymore. So in that sense, it's a much better game today. And then we, as athletes in the 80s, we were learning that, boy, it takes more commitment on and off the ice or our training method's got a lot better. I'd say in the 80s and certainly in the 90s,

everybody started to hire personal trainers, myself included. That allowed me to get to another level of fitness. I recall my brother and I, it would have been starting, I think, in 1989 or 90. After I'd trained for the summer and getting really good shape, we would go, my brother and I, to the Rocky Mountains in Alberta and D.C. And really put in 10 days or two weeks of really hard work of great hiking and mountain biking, and it'd take my fitness level to

to levels that I'd never been before, not really improved. And then you go to the ice part of it. And as you can imagine, when I was a kid growing up in Edmonton, I was born in 61, my idols were guys like Jacques Plont and Bernie Peront and others

that were all stand-up goaltenders. I'd say maybe only a guy like Glenn Hall would have been one that was more willing to play a butterfly and Tony Esposito as well, but most guys were trying to emulate Jacques Plont and Bernie Perrant and these guys that stayed on their feet so long. So that was my goal. And then when I finally made the NHL, I was still trying to do that more than I should have, I suppose. But that was kind of the norm. And then it was in about my, I don't know, second, third year maybe of playing for the Islanders. I was like, you know what, this isn't going to work

as well as I thought, and I knew I had to adapt. So that was my first change. I was way more willing to go down on my knees and battle for pucks down low and adapt because I knew that you have to be really strong on the ice because these guys were so powerful going to the net that if you didn't take away the lower part of the net, you were in big trouble. So I'm kind of credited with starting the paddle down move.

And trust me, it was not easy to adapt with that. move because my coach, and everybody knows, I love Al Arbor, but he didn't like that. He didn't like the fact that I was willing to drop down to my knees, put my paddle down, and try and be effective that way. And unfortunately, for me, the first time I tried it in a game, the shot went in. So I was really in an uphill battle here trying to convince my coach that, honestly, this will work. It will. I haven't perfected it yet, but this is going to be a really effective move. And then when I was traded at Los Angeles, the game was

still changing rapidly as well. Players were hanging on to the puck a little bit more, not as many clear shots because we're getting more Europeans coming over. So again, I knew I had to change again. And with the help of my assistant coach Cap Raider with the Kings, we made

a lot of adjustments to my game. I was able to incorporate more of a butterfly style or hybrid kind of style. And then lastly, when I went to San Jose, I had to sharpen that technique even more so. And I've worked with Wayne Thomas, the assistant general manager, former goaltender in the league, and he was really good.

He was really progressive. And so my point being, for me to last until 37 years old in the league, I had to change my style three different times. And although that was hard, I think it's more mentally you've got to, hey, listen, here's the only way you're going to stick around. I remember about five, seven years ago, Chris Osgood did the same. same thing. He was kind of stuck in his style that he didn't think was going to last. I can't recall who the goaltner was, but he was watching him one night going, you know what, I've got to get

to be more like him. So he put in the hard work and he did it. Yeah. Yeah. And those are the guys I'm always impressed with, right? Because it's like, whether it's just being unwilling to or unable to, there's a lot of guys that once the physical play leaves a little bit, maybe they're not as fast or as strong as they used to be, they quickly wash out of the league. Whereas you see like, obviously he's the extreme example, but I mean, like a guy at Yarmar Yager who is just a freak when it comes to working out and taking care of his body. And I think he's even admitted that just like you mentioned earlier, like that wasn't always the case, he kind of took it for granted that in his 20s, but then he went over to the KHL for a while and rediscovered himself when he came back and he's still

producing at such a high level just because he was able to make those changes. Yeah, but like you said, this is the best word of the describe. He's a freak. Not many people can do that. And the other thing is, although he's had some injuries, it's genetics are a part of it. You can't argue that. You look at him, he's been able to stay really healthy. And the guy that really stands out to me is Patrick Marlowe.

I believe he's only missed about 28 games. It could be like 31 or something games in his entire career. And he started in 1997. So that tells you exactly how important it is. is that how important genetics are and some people are blessed with bodies that are really durable. Yeah, and you watch a guy like Patrick Marlow,

I mean, if you just watch him skate in the open ice, it looks like he's still 25 years old, which is remarkable to me. I guess it speaks to his work ethic. And also the fact that he hasn't taken that much punishment, I mean, if you watch him play, like it's not, he's not taking massive hits time and time again that are just deteriorating his body.

Like, he's stuck around for a while for a reason. Yeah, and, you know, it's surprising, though, like he still plays a really heavy game. He's not going to be the biggest hitter you've ever seen, but he competes awfully hard on pucks, and he's great on the forward check and finishes his checks and stuff. And so that's, again, going back to the, you know, how lucky he is in that sense that he is blessed with a great body.

Here's something I'm curious about the era you came around in. I was looking at the year-by-year averages, and it was such an entirely different animal to the game now. I mean, in your rookie season, the league average state percentage was 8-6. 875, I feel like you wouldn't be sticking around the league if you were stopping that few pucks around these times. But like, we always talk about the gaudy goal and point totals and all the achievements for the various skaters that were playing during that era. But we don't

really ever spin it around and talk about it from the goalies perspective. And I was just thinking, like, I imagine it must have been tough not getting too down on yourself while you were playing the position because, I mean, in theory, if one out of every 10 shots coming your way was getting by you and resulting in a goal, it still meant you were doing a pretty good job as a goalie, but I imagine that the expectations for yourself, like, just talk about how you managed to stay in it and not every time a goal happened, that you just wouldn't beat yourself up about it. Well, I think there are two different mindsets for me. One was, when I was with the Islanders, we had a really good, well, they had a great team, right?

and I joined them after won their fourth consecutive Stanley Cups. So their style of play was really strong defensively. And so you're in a game. Typically, you wouldn't get many more than 25 ballpark 30 shots against. And I think we'd limit the opposition, usually only about seven really good chances of game. even though the league was trending towards a higher style of scoring game, and that really changed, I thought,

with the Oilers and the way that they were attacking, getting opportunities, and winning 7-4 and 8-5 and those kind of scores. But the norm was, like you said, if you had a save percentage anywhere about 885, you were a top goalie. I recall, I'm going to say, is 1980s. six around there anyways

I had a save percentage of 906 and if I'm not mistaken that was the second or third highest in the league that year and so that tells you how the game has changed I mean if you're 906 right now most people are looking for a different goalie right so that was just the norm and then when I went to L.A. I learned something new

about myself so I really liked the 2-1-3-2 games when I played for the Islanders four or three maybe. But when I went to L.A. and the game was really now high pace. I was playing with Gretzky. We had all sorts of scoring chances for and against. I was in near the dressing one day. And Jerry Cheever, the great goaltender from the Boston Bruins, he and I were chatting.

And it wasn't long before that, or it was shortly before that that I was traded to L.A. And so I was talking to him about the changes and the style and difference. And he said, you know what you've got to do? And it was great advice. She goes, just embrace winning games. Who cares if it's 7-6 or 8-5? Just the one thing you have to focus on is winning. Who cares what your goals against averages?

Who cares what your safe percentages? Find a way to win. And that's what Grant Fuhr was always great at. I mean, he had let in two bad goals in a 5-5 game. They would score the sixth goal, the Oilers. and then he'd make two great stops. And that's a hard ability. That's one of the important things that I tell goalies now,

that you have to be able to win games in a lot of different ways. Two-one's great when you make 28 saves, but 7-6 is a great way to learn how to win as well. And you need all those tools. Right. Yeah, the Chris Osgood. Yeah. Just make the save when you need to, right?

Well, I think this is why, I mean, I don't know what your take is on this, but I think that this is why Dominic Haschak is the gold standard for me, in my opinion, just because, you know, with all due respect to Patrick Waugh or whoever else, I mean, if you look at what was going on in the league at that time, I mean, his first handful of years, he was stopping like 93% of the shots he was facing in the early 90s during the time, which, as you mentioned, the league average say it was like 885, 880. I mean, you were still in the league for those first handful of his years,

and I imagine you guys crossed path at least a couple times. What was it like just like being on the other end of it, knowing that you'd essentially have to be perfect to keep serve with him. I mean, like it's all well and good to say a 7-6 win is just as important as a 2-1 win, but I think if you're giving up six goals against Dominic Hachachuk, you're probably not going to be winning too many times. Yeah.

So, first of all, I'm on record many, many times as saying when people ask me who the greatest goalie of all time is, and I say Hashi, that's what I think of his body of work. It was phenomenal. And, but my time with him, goes way, way back. So in 1986, I was playing for Canada in the

World Championships in Moscow after our season with the Islanders was done. And that was my first time seeing them. And I thought, okay, this guy is really, really good. But I didn't know if his game was going to translate well into the National Hockey League style of play, because

he played way deeper than any of us goalies. And the reason for that was because in the European game, players held on to the puck longer, they're not as willing to shoot the puck, so you have to stay deeper in your net. Otherwise, you'd be exposed for being too aggressive. Then I saw him in the 87 Canada Cup, again, the following year. And he played quite well, but again, not as well as I was curious if that style would be okay.

In fact, one of their coaches, I had a great conversation with him about him. He told me even back then he believes, Khashik is the best goalie in the entire world. I just wasn't seeing yet because his style was so different. And I'm not talking about his technique and stopping the puck. His positioning was so different. So when he ended up coming over to North America, I think he was with Chicago at this point.

And in the summer, there was this unbelievable conditioning camp in Edmonton. And I mean, who's who of National Hockey League players were there. And so I was a part of that summer. training for a number of years. And we had most of the great Oilers coming out, other guys from around the Edmonton area that would come and train. And I remember one year, the three goalies were Grant Fier, Dominic, Hachick, and myself. And then Hoshick, after that was traded to Buffalo,

and that's where his career really took over. I guess Chicago at that time would have had, I guess their internal questioning would have been, do we keep Belfour or Hoshick? And, I mean, you can't go wrong with either. So, Hachuk went to Buffalo, and then his play really, really developed his style. I think us North American goal terrorists adapted more than he did because we had to now change. We couldn't be as aggressive because of the influence of the Europeans, the game.

Their shooters taught us North American shooters a different way to play as well. So there's a lot of different adaptations going on. for the players, for the skaters, and for the goaltenders, and Dominic was perfect in helping all of us improve. Yeah, yeah, and absolutely he was one-of-kind. So I know you're not necessarily a, you know, a numbers guy at heart, but I've heard you on TV and through discussions with various other media people, and you seem to be a pretty thoughtful individual who's open to different lines of thinking

and willing to expand his horizons. And I just wanted to talk to you about, you know, we've come a long way. I feel like we still have so much. much more work to do in terms of, quote, unquote, figuring out the goaltending position, at least in terms of analyzing it and better predicting future performance and stuff like that. But when you look back at your playing career, do you sort of wish that some of these more recent advancements on stuff we know, whether it's, you know, how a double screen affects shot percentage or, you know, passes that are coming from behind the net out front, how they're

going to have a higher shooting percentage, stuff like that? Like, do you wish that we had more that information while you were playing and do you think you would have been using it? Or do you think it's just one of those things where there's still an impasse between the theoretical usage on paper when we discuss it like this between two media types and the practical use of a player actually applying it to their game? No, I would have used it. There's no question about it. I was huge into watching my play like in video.

So right when I started and keep in mind, it was really archaic stuff that we were looking at. I mean, going back to early 80s, we had VCR machines and the tape was really grainy and it was hard to get just to watch your stuff. But I still put in the time and the effort to watch most of my games. And I'd watch the good and the bad, try and figure out what I could have done differently on goals and also kind of study what I was doing properly. So if I had more analytics, I would have clearly sunk my teeth into that as well. but then the game changed luckily for me we had now video team or video coaches in the 90s and so on

so they were breaking down place so you didn't have to go through the entire tape that give you only your action and of course now it's just phenomenal what to these players are given so I think you'd be foolish if you're a player not to look at anything that can help you but I wouldn't get too focused on

just something in particular I'd look at it in a broad scale and say well, this seems beneficial. This seems like it's not cluttering my mind because that's the other thing. You've got to make sure that your mind is clear and you're not overthinking. Right. I think that's something we still need to work on for people like myself, at least, in terms of translating that stuff from, you know, you have this wide set of information and some of it might be anecdotally interesting,

but only some of it is actually relevant in finding a way to cleanly or neatly describe that to players or coaches or GMs so that it can actually have practical use beyond just, just kind of talking to a wall basically, just back and forth. So I think that that's definitely the next step we need to make. Yeah, because it's very important that a player goes out there and doesn't think, just go out there and react. And so if you have a bunch of information that you've processed

maybe the day before or the afternoon of or at some point, and that you're very clear in your own brain how to apply it and when this might work and not have to try and draw that out during a game. I mean, I've always said this. Dennis Potvin was great. He would always say, do your thinking in the afternoon, and at night just go out and react. And that's very important for not only goaltenders, but everybody.

I think maybe more so goaltenders simply because everything happens quickly, and there are a lot of different options that you have to think of. And so if you're worried about something or concerned about a technique or a stat, then I think you could run into trouble. Well, and I think the other thing is I'm kind of curious for your take on this. So when we talk about, you know, shooting percentage and say percentage, we look at it only on terms of shots that actually hit the target, went on net, right? But I'm wondering, like, should we be expanding that to looking at all of the shots

that are at least getting past a defenseman? because I've always wondered in terms of whether certain goalies do have the ability, just whether it's based on reputation or just how good they are to sort of make other shooters miss the net more often just because they're trying to get too cute or they know that they're going to need the perfect shot to beat that goalie? Or is it just, is that overthinking it? And when you're like a shooter, you're basically just putting your head down and putting the puck on net wherever you can and seeing where it goes.

Well, I think the good scores are just what you say. They're just trying to put the puck on the net. They're usually more accurate, but they have a very simple philosophy. And that's just to make sure the goalie makes a save, as opposed to the guy that overthinks it, thinks he's got to make a perfect shot and typically shoots wide because he's trying to be too fine with something that happens too quickly. So the most dangerous guys for me,

whether it was back in my playing days or now, are guys that quickly shoot the puck have a great release, maybe a deceptive release, but hit the net. Those are always going to be the most dangerous. Not the guy with the hardest shot, although that certainly doesn't hurt, but you'll ask any goal to enter,

and because of the movement, reacting to a play, reacting to a pass, the guys that scored the most are the guys that have the best release and the quickest. And that's going back to Patrick Marlowe. He had that early on. You look at the way very quickly release the shot when it comes to him. He has kind of like a sweeping motion in the slot for most of the shots.

Sean Monaghan's kind of like that. It's not the hardest shot, but he just has a really quick release, and it kind of fools goaltenders. Foresburg, Philip Foresburg in Nashville is maybe the most deceptive at that. He's got such a funky release, and I talked to Peckereenay about it, his goal turn, the guy that he faces all the time in practice, he says he still can't figure it out. And that's why he has success. It's not the hardest shot.

It's not the most accurate, but he's just got some funky release that cools your eyes. Right. You never know where it's coming from, so it's kind of hard to react to it. No. Who's your, when you're watching these days, who's your favorite goalie to watch in that? Holy. You know what? I don't know if I can pick even.

In fact, I've got the stats right in front of them. looking at the NFL goalies and all, and I could, in all likelihood, Demetri, because the game has changed so much and the goaltenders are the most improved player in the last 20 years, I could in all likelihood try and make a point for about 20 of the guys

why I think they're all super elite goaltenors. And so for that reason, I can't really pick two or three because I would be doing a disservice to, so many other guys. I'll just go from the goals against the leaders, their team

by team. And so you look at, let me just get up here. So you look at Washington leading the league and goals against that. Well, of course you're going to love Holti. He's fantastic. Then you go to Minnesota. Right, you can't go around. Then you go to Minnesota. Dubnick, well,

you can't find many faults in his game. Martin Jones takes his team to the Stanley Cup finals last year. Struggling a little bit right now, but still many reasons why he's great. L.A.'s in four, and Boudai has been phenomenal, considering what expectations were, and here shortly they're going to get quick,

whom I happen to believe is one of the top goaltenors of all time. Then you get to Bobrovsky. So you see my point now. I'm going down all these teams, and there's very little between them. I mean, these guys are all incredible, and some of the guys, I'm not even talking about the guys that are backing up

that, in some cases, potentially will be the starter here in years to come, and they have a ton of great qualities. I think it's safe to say that the league has never had better goaltenders, and even most teams with what they have in the minors, you could argue that a lot of the guys that are currently today in the minors would have been in the NHL in the 70s or 80s. Well, okay, here's a follow-up then,

or a better way to frame the question maybe. When you're watching a game, let's say you're in the studio and it's a Saturday night and a game's on, or you're doing prep, for a future broadcast or something like that. Is there anything you're particularly watching, whether it's, you know, tendencies or technique-wise from a goalie that kind of stands out to you or that catches your attention?

Because I think that, you know, for the casual fan, they might see a guy like Jonathan Quick, for example. He's, you know, very aggressive. He's often out of his net. He's making a lot of highlight real saves. But then, you know, the sort of cynic in me says, well, yeah, but that's because he might be, you know, maybe a bit too aggressive. He's throwing himself a bit out of position.

so he's kind of having a scramble, whereas a guy like Henrik Lunkwist doesn't wind up on too many top tens for plays of the night because he's always just kind of in the right position and just makes the saves look so casual and effortless, and it's not going to be eye-popping, you're not going to be like, oh, what a remarkable save where it just hit him directly in the chest. Look at that, but it's like, yeah,

but maybe as a purist you might appreciate the technique that allowed him to make that save a bit more. You know what I watch more than technique, although that's, of course, important to me, and I have my beliefs of which techniques at the right time work better, but I've always believed also that everybody's technique is just a little bit different, and it's whatever they feel most comfortable with. So the two things that I concentrate the most on are positioning,

and then body language. That, to me, tells me everything I need to know about where a guy is mentally, what he's thinking, how he's approaching the game, what's happening during the course of a game, what kind of stretches the end during the season. And so here's how I would break it down for guys. And again, it's their personal choice how they want to play. So Jonathan Quick, that's what people talk about,

what you're saying, about overly aggressive. And then I would look at it also that for a guy like Lundquist in particular, that for oftentimes or for the most part of his career, he played too deep for my liking. because he allowed certain shots, not a greater opportunity to go in, but he was more willing to give up those opportunities because, as he said, if he stayed a little bit deeper, he thought it gave his eyes just a split second longer to track the puck.

So it's all personal choice, but I would have thought, especially at his size, if he would have stepped out maybe two feet further, that because of his size, then just occasionally the puck would hit him, just simply because of a bulk. And I've noticed a change in that in the last, say, two years with him that he is more willing to be a little bit aggressive, more aggressive, and not just stand on the goal line. And partially, I think, because you get older and your reflexes might slow down just the hair,

that it gives him a better opportunity. And then there's a full range of guys in between there that, you know, they don't like the goal line, but they don't like the top decrease either. They find their comfort zone. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. All right, one final thing before I let you go last week. I had Jeff Merrick on the show, and we were talking about the jump that you made from being a player into the media. And we both agreed that, you know, you made it seem pretty seamless.

But when he was talking to you, you were saying that it took you a while to really kind of get comfortable with it and feel like you were doing the type of job that you wanted to do. I'm kind of curious, you know, from a player's perspective, there's maybe things that come natural to you just because you've been doing it your entire life or, you know, a certain way you speak with teammates in the locker room or with your coaches. But then when you go on TV and you have to talk to a casual fan or someone that hasn't had those experiences, you might need to, you know, say that stuff in a different manner or a different light. just how long did it take you to make that leap? And do you feel like you're comfortable with the gig right now? So when I was playing in New York, I'm a big fan of hockey, and I watch tons of games, still do. Which the reason I bring that up is this might surprise a lot of people.

Not all players like to watch hockey, and there's no right or wrong answer, right? Some guys are addicted to it. They pay attention every game. They follow the league closely. And some guys that have had success or have success don't watch a lot. They just feel they get enough by playing. But I was the opposite. I love watching it.

Not only did I watch the games, but I love the intermissions. And I wanted to learn from other players and hear their thoughts on the game. So I would listen to them and also the broadcasters and try and learn more about the game from those intermission interviews. And so then it occurred to me. that I could, when I'm being interviewed, maybe give out more information without throwing anybody under the bus and allowing me to stand out a little bit. Apparently, that might have caught some TV executives' attention when I was in L.A.

because I was offered a guest appearances on hockey night, and I did some stuff in the States while I was still playing. but when I was offered a full-time job on hockey night, the great thing is they threw me right into the fire. I mean, I was doing all sorts of different things, learning on the fly. I started quickly with a telestrator, which I had no previous experience,

so I had to learn that and do that live for many years. I was told my actual personality will come out in about two years. I thought it took longer than that, because maybe in the playoffs I improve a little bit quicker. But during the regular season, keep in mind when you're on hockey night in Canada, there's only ballpark about 30 weekends, right? So there's only 30 Saturday night.

So it's not like you have the repetition to continue to get better. And it's not like you have a game Tuesday, game Thursday, Saturday, maybe Sunday, back to Tuesday, so that you're getting reps. You'd have a Saturday, then six days off, then another game. So it was hard to get in that rhythm and learn the industry. And I think at some point maybe in my third year, fourth year I started, I really felt that I was coming on and my own personality and so on.

We're starting to shine a little bit. But to your point, I mean, and Jeff Merrick's point, he knows. Some days you do a show, you do a broadcast, you think, boy, was I ever, And other times you sign off and go, man, Kelly, you can never be that bad again because you're not going to last. And so I still have those ups and down. Some days I think I'm a pretty decent broadcaster. And other days, I think, wow, you know, it's usually for me it's focused.

If I'm focused and clear-minded, I'm a lot better than if I'm thinking too much about my upcoming schedule or something that has my mind distracted. Do you like the challenge of being a regular color commentator for one team as opposed to just the regular studio thing on a panel maybe once a week? Because I imagine kind of just being around the team, you get to extract various different nuggets or anecdotes. Then you can share that'll make your job a bit easier with the viewing fan at home. Yes, there's no question about that. But some of the nuggets or some of the things behind the scenes that you get, you can never go to air with. So unfortunately, some of the best stuff you have,

nobody will ever hear except maybe a couple of your friends or people in the industry, but that's normal. The thing is I know I'm way better at studio work, so that comes more naturally to me. I've been doing it a lot better, but one of the reasons why I really enjoy doing color for the flames is that it's not as easy for me, so it's a lot more challenging,

and I have to really make sure that I've done my prep and my focus is there every night because some nights I feel like I'm doing a pretty good job and other nights I'd lead after a game with Rick Ball, my co-worker for the Flames broadcast and I'm just so mad at myself for the job I did that night. Whereas in a studio I can still do that and be disappointed with something, but I also know that that just is a little bit easier for me. Well, don't beat yourself up too, man. I've been watching a lot of the Flames games recently,

and I think you guys have been doing a really good job. I appreciate the perspective you provide, so just keep at it, and I'm sure it'll get easier, and you'll get more comfortable with it. Well, I'm 56 years old. I'm just to keep improving there. Yeah, I hope I get better.

Well, Kelly, listen, there's like a million other things that I want to pick your brain about, but I guess we'll just have to put a pinnet here and hopefully have you back on sometime in the near future to pick up where we left off. Okay, thanks, pal. Thanks, Dimitri.

Talk soon. That's fun. The Hockey P.D.O.cast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockeypedocast.