The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 146: Working The Trade Machine

Episode Date: February 27, 2017

Jonathan Willis joins the show to help process the trades we've already seen, the trades we could see, and the trades we'd like to see. Here’s a quick rundown of the topics covered: 1:53 The Patrick Eaves trade 7:33 The Ben Bishop trade 14:10 The Martin Hanzal trade 19:52 Hypothetical Trades we'd like to see 37:09 A rant about the current playoff structure Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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Welcome to the Hockey PEOCast. My name's Dimitri Filipovich. And Joy, Amy, is my good friend Jonathan Willis. Jonathan, what's going on, man? Oh, you know, it's another slow week of NHL news, so I'm just taking it easy, relaxing a little. Yes, there's absolutely nothing else going on. I don't know what we could possibly talk about on this show. I mean, we're kind of scratching the bottom of the barrel for possibilities.

Yeah, I'm just glad you hadn't put it in the hiatus. I figured we might be in trouble here. Yeah, we're really revving up here. I mean, we got the two pretty big trades yesterday, which, I mean, NHL GMs just showed they had no regard for my, for my Oscars party or for my dinner plans, because the entire time. I was just on my phone and everyone just kept asking me to get off. But, uh, listen, that's the, uh, this is, this is the life we picked. And I'm, I'm, I'm pretty happy with that. So it's, uh, it's, it's, it's a crazy time. I think the next 48 hours or so are going to be pretty hectic. But who knows? I mean,

people were saying that they weren't expecting many fireworks and we've already seen two or three pretty notable trades. So maybe it could be a sign of things to come or maybe it could just be one of those things where we'll be sitting on, on, on Wednesday morning, just kind of wondering where everything is, and it all just already happened. Well, somebody, trade a minor leaguer to just give the insider something to talk about. We'll have a Jeremy Moran for Stefan Fournier kind of trade. Yes, yes, exactly. Oh, yeah.

And there'll be like everyone will be writing a different blog post about it and trying to come up with some creative angles to discuss it. It'll be a good time. So the plan was initially to use this show as an opportunity to come up with at least a handful of, you know, logical, distinctly possible trades, but also ones that might be a bit outside the box and it would be fun to see. and we'll get to that eventually. But I think before we do that,

let's take a few minutes here to unpack the moves that have already happened. And I think a good place to start is the one that happened on, I believe, Friday afternoon, where Patrick Eves went to Anaheim for a conditional second rounder, which I guess you could call it a conditional first rounder. I mean, if the ducks make the conference finals and he plays 50% of the games,

it becomes a first. So I guess it's kind of semantic, so you could go either way with it. Yeah, it's, those conditions, picks really throw you for a loop. I was doing a piece not that long ago where I was trying to figure out draft pick value. And every time I saw a conditional pick, I'd be pulling my hair out to figure out what was going on. But I mean, calling it a conditional second, I guess makes a little

more sense just because, you know, if you go to the conference finals, you don't really care that it's a first round pick so much. Right. Yes. Yeah, especially. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, here's the thing. Okay, let's start from the star's perspective because I think some perspective here is important because, you know, even though I figured Eves could have conceivably fetched more just based on the way people were talking about him for the past week or two leading up to this move, I think if you told me at the start of the year that he would be flipped for a potential first round pick just months later, I'd have told you you're a crazy person just based on his entire track record and even what he did last year, for example. But I mean, obviously the

season hasn't gone the way anyone in Dallas would have hoped. So now they kind of need to just recalibrate their goals and expectations to trying to recoup as many assets as they can for all these expiring contracts they have. Yeah, and Dallas has had a ton of injuries this year. It's been a difficult season in a lot of ways. I think some of those injuries, particularly in the case of Alachamski, may get in the way of recouping assets at the trade deadline here. Eve's value, I think, lies, I mean, he's had a very good season. Don't get me wrong, but I think a lot of his value lies in the fact that he's just so dirt cheap. I was a little surprised to see him go to Anaheim, honestly, because I figured that a team like Chicago, which is, you know, scrounging for every penny,

would have moved heaven and earth to get a guy who can play for, you know, a million-dollar cap hit on their roster. But I think that's what made him more intriguing than somebody, even like Patrick Sharp, who, you know, even though he's had a worse season based on past history, we would guess would be about the same value. Yeah, that's a good point because, you know, so often around this time, the idea of salary retention and how that's going to work and what the team that's trading away the player will wind up paying for the remainder of his contract is like is generally a sticking point or kind of a hurdle you have to clear so with eaves where he has this measly one million dollar cap paid like that's that's a pretty desirable commodity in today's n hl but i think he's an interesting player just because like from that from the ducks perspective it makes a ton of sense i mean if you look at their roster up front there's not really much beyond their top guys i mean they basically have gets laugh perry kessler the usual guys and Raquel has really burst onto the scene as a legitimate star this year. But beyond that, it's a lot of guys that are somewhere between like bottom six guys and maybe even like four A players. Like it's guys that you definitely shouldn't be playing such big roles as they are, but the ducks

are just so thin up front because of some of the moves they made the summer that they, you know, a guy like Eves all of a sudden becomes like possibly like their fifth or six best forward. So I mean, that's a pretty huge move for a team that has a legitimate shot in this postseason. Yeah, Anaheim had a weird summer. I remember that they were rumored to be in on the Milan-Luchich free agency look. And it made sense because they're so weak at left wing. But they didn't really address it over the course of the year. They didn't address it really when they should have done in late July, early August, when there were a couple of bargain options available that you could probably shoehorn in there somewhere. I don't know if there's another team. certainly not out west that has that dichotomy between the, you know, the high end, top forwards, and then the bottom six and just a chasm in terms of quality drop-off between them. Yeah, and I mean, a lot of that is just their own doing, right? Like, their big moves this summer to shore up that forward talent was bringing in guys like

Jared Bull and Mason Raymond and those two both horribly backfired. And now they're kind of stuck trying to patch it up. So, I mean, ease will help a lot. But he was like when I was preparing for this trade line, he was the one guy that was a bit of a red flag for me because, I mean, obviously whenever a guy is 32 years old and has a career year, you're right to be skeptical. But I mean, if you look even a little bit deeper, like a lot of his production this year is just based on the fact that he's been getting a ton of time on that Dallas power play unit on the top one with guys like Jamie Ben and John Klingberg. So, I mean, he has like 11 power play goals this year. And I think he had 12 combined over the past five seasons. or something like that. So it's like, it's coming at a pretty good time for him because he could parlay this into a nice little two or three year contract this summer. But it made sense for the stars to be, see a type of guy like that and think to themselves, well, you know, he has 21 goals this year, but he's probably not like an integral part of our future anyway. So why not just

get something who can for him? Yeah, absolutely. I 100% agree with that. And maybe that's one of the reasons that Anaheim felt comfortable going with him just because, because the Ducks do have not the same dynamic as in Dallas, but they have a similar one where he can be a, you know, a complimentary guy to much more talented players. But I do think you're right that he's a little bit overrated this year just because so much of his productions on the man advantage and, you know, that's useful in that role,

but it becomes less useful in the postseason. Yeah, for sure. Okay, let's talk about the Ben Bishop trade. I think it wound up being Bishop and a fifth to the Kings, and then the Lightning got Peter Boudai back in a seventh, and Eric Chernak, who was their real return. And I had some good fun with this trade yesterday. What were your thoughts when you saw this break on the old Twitter machine?

Well, like everybody else, I was a little confused that L.A. decided their most pressing need was a goaltender. I don't. The rationale there's interesting, because you've had Peter Boudai in net all year. And, you know, games in October and November count every bit as much in the standings as games in March. So I don't understand why, you know, I get that Jonathan Quick, you're worried about his health, you want somebody, you've got a bunch of back-to-back games coming up, but you've spent all year running Peter Boudi, he's done pretty well for you, and suddenly he's not good enough. So that,

that true me. But in terms of valuation, it was about right. A goalie. typically don't have a ton of value at the deadline. The only exception I can think of recently was St. Louis just losing their mind over Ryan Miller. And that went very badly for the blues. So maybe the league has learned from that. So I thought the valuation was actually about right. Goleys just don't command that much. Cernax, a decent prospect. But the King's thinking on this, the timing of it just baffles me. Yeah. I mean, you look, and if 5-15, for example, they're 6th and goals against per hour and they're 26th and goals four per hour. So it's pretty clear that, you know, the goal attending has been fine this year.

Peter Boudet, I did an Adamer little job. I mean, if you want to make the argument that you're skeptical that he'll be able to keep up this performance for moving forward, like that's that, I think that's fine because I think that he's wildly exceeded everyone's expectations so far. So that seems like a reasonable point you could make. But I mean, I don't know, it's just like if you look at this team, basically, if Jeff Carter hasn't been scoring, and fortunately for them, he has been scoring a lot. But basically without him, I mean, there's no one else really generating any offense. It feels like I've seen Anzee Kopitar hit like 30 posts this year. And I don't know, maybe someone's keeping track of that at home.

But it's like, if you just look at their needs, it would have made much more sense for them to try and bring in a guy who could help score. And they still might, although they're pretty tight up against the cap. but it's like there's so many of these interesting wing options available for cheap. I mean, we just talked about a guy like Patrick Geves, and it would have made much more sense for them to prioritize a guy like that. And I just think that it's the lateral nature of this move seems very curious to me. Yeah, it, um,

no, I agree entirely with that. I don't know, I don't know what to add to it. I, there are a lot of decent offensive players out there. Um, at the trade deadline,

you can usually get wingers for a reasonable rate and there are a few options and I'm not sure why that wasn't more of a priority for the Kings. Well, you made a good point with the back-to-backs and I think that they have what, like four of them left and a pretty busy March schedule and there are only a few points back. I mean, there's six points back of the flames with two games in hand. There are only three points behind the blues for that final wildcard spot. So every single point here is going to matter and it makes sense that with all these back-to-backs coming up, you'd want to optimize and your chances of winning. each of those games. And I think having Quicken Bishop in those will certainly help. So I think it's an interesting strategy and it kind of works to the point I've been making all here about how each team should have two very reliable goalies. You have no excuse not to. But it's like,

I just, I don't know, I'm trying to wrap my head around it. I think that the other interesting point that I saw someone bring up and certainly might have some validity is what if they were using this as something of a blocking mechanism to stop one of their closest competitors from getting a bishop like let's say a guy like a team like the calgary flames who has been linked to him in the past and i know had a sort of a agreement in place with the lightning at the draft last year before ultimately shifting their sights to elliott because the the demands for bishop were too strong and they realized they probably couldn't sign them in the summer so if they maybe got if maybe they were a bit concerned that a team like the flames would go up to bishop so they just said well let's just

prevent that from happening and bolster our team at the same time like i think that's probably as get of an argument as you're going to find. It's certainly an interesting argument. If that was the case, because, I mean, maybe it was. And if you're Steve Eisenman, obviously, you probably want to play up the fact that Calgary's a team that could conceivably be in the goalie market. But Eisman this morning in his press availability said that basically L.A. was his only option for Bishop.

If a trade didn't work with the Kings, there wasn't going to be a trade at all. So if that was driving Los Angeles, it was bad intel. Yeah, Steve Eisenman is a bad, bad man. Don't get into a game with chicken with that guy. I've been warning people for years now, and the other GMs keep trying to do it, and other players in the contract negotiations, it just never works out for them.

And I don't know, I mean, for the lightning, we haven't really discussed their perspective on this, but, I mean, it's a bit of a no-brainer. You mentioned that they didn't really have other suitors. And, I mean, they just didn't really have a leg to stand on because it's pretty clear that, you know, Bishop was going to walk this summer just based on how much he's going to ask for as a free agent and the fact that they have Andrew Vasselowski, Net, who's clearly their guy. And it didn't help them that Bishop has been performing at a suboptimal level this year. I mean, he's below league average at 9-11 for the year. And he had another injury, and it seems like that's becoming a bit of a trend with him. So, you know, I'm sure if he had had the type of season he had last year, they would have maybe had more intrigue from other teams. But all of these factors coming together just made for a perfect storm of them not really being able to get anything. So the fact that they were actually able to recoup a pretty interesting defense prospect,

who was a high second round pick just two years ago and is considered, like I'm not a prospect guru by any means, but I know that people liked them quite a bit at the time of the draft. So I think for the lightning, this is kind of a little bit of a, I wouldn't say a home run, but I'd say like a solid double. Yeah,

and the timing of it, getting some money off the books so that they potentially don't have some cap overage issues next year. And the fact they're able to get Boudai back, they're still going to have two goalies that they can play, given how Boudai has played this year. So I don't, I think it's just a very logical trade from a Tampa Bay perspective.

Yeah. Okay, let's get to the final trade that we saw yesterday. Marty Hansel went to the Minnesota Wild for a first this year, a second next year, and a potential second round pick in 2019, if the Wilde win two rounds and Hansel plays in 50% of those games, I think. Let's get the coyotes perspective out of the way here quickly because I think that, you know, there's the saying everyone's available for the right price, but I think if we adjust that to everyone's available for the price that the Wilde paid for

Harvey Hansel, I think it also applies. It seemed like a bit of a no-brainer for the coyotes here. Whenever you can basically just recoup three very useful assets for a guy that doesn't have any term left on his deal and you're not going anywhere as a franchise anytime, soon is a no-brainer. And I think that, you know, spinning it forward, let's say they really like Marty Hansel for whatever reason. He's played their entire career. They're familiar with him. They can let him try and win a cup here, have a long playoff run and get that out of the way, have these three assets and then potentially bring them, explore, bringing him back this summer

kind of like they did with Antoine over a met a few years ago. Or not quite the same scenario, but Radeem Verbata this past summer. Yeah, they don't seem to have a problem revisiting players. And, you know, it says something about the franchise that players don't seem to have a problem coming back to it either. I actually thought the valuation, I know Twitter just lost its mind over it, but I didn't think the valuation was that crazy. Like obviously, you know, John Chaka, the GM in Arizona deserves some credit for maximizing the return, but you look at what the coyotes got for Antoine from Matt, you look at what David

Legwan got as a rental, you look at what any of, well, Paul Gostad went for a first round pick a few years ago. Like, there is always this insane premium on centers. especially centers who you can trust against quality opponents at the trade deadline. They're just are not that many available. Like if you're shopping for a center now, who do you grab by this, Brian Boyle? Maybe David D.R.N.A. Like, there's not a lot on the market unless you get into the Matt Duchyne thing,

which is a whole other kettle of fish and not a rental issue at all. And the other thing is with the trade, like that conditional pick, if they'd swap that conditional pick for, you know, Ryan White, a fourth rounder straight across, Ross, it'd be a bit of an odd trade, but it wouldn't be like totally out to lunch. So it kind of comes down to Marty Hansel for a first and a second round pick to me. And when you look at Antoine Vermet going for a first round pick and Kloss Dalbeck, granted Dalbeck's not worth the same as a second round pick, but then Hansel's a better player than Vermet anyway.

So I think Arizona got good value back, but I don't think it was, you know, just insane, given what centers always go for. Yeah. And I think with with trades like this, there's this, common reaction online to, you know, you see the steep price and everyone just latches onto that and it kind of obscures the fact that the player going the other way is very useful and will certainly help the other team. And from Minnesota's perspective, like, it makes sense. They're having an incredibly successful season. The West is wide open.

I still think I like the sharks better, but I mean, you could make a very logical argument that Minnesota might be the best team in the Western Conference. And this is a good chance for them to go for it and try and make some noise, which is something this franchise hasn't done much during its short existence. And it's like, I get it completely. Like it's, they also have a deep farm system. They have a lot of good prospects. They've drafted well the past few years. So like, it's a steep price and it makes sense for Arizona, but I don't think it's necessarily like a disaster from Minnesota either. I do, I, I'm a disagreement with you in that I do think it's a bit steep. And I get that the, what the market dictates, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should be,

willing to pay that price anyways just because other people are but listen it it makes sense for Minnesota I mean there's no argument that they're a better team today than they were yesterday and I think that's ultimately all that matters for them right now yeah I my favorite example of sort of the I agree with you that sometimes you don't want to go with the market rate my favorite example is from 2013 14 and at the trade deadline alish hemsky commanded a third round pick and a fifth round pick. At the same time, Marcel Gawk commanded a third round pick and a fifth round pick. It was an identical acquisition costs.

And to me, there's no question that Alex Hemsky, even though he's a right wing, makes your team a whole lot better than Marcel Gawkes. Yes. But when you look at Minnesota's situation, in their shoes, at first I looked at the deal and I thought, you know, I don't think the valuation's nuts, but I wouldn't have done it. But the more I look at Minnesota's roster, the more it just makes sense to me, Your point about the West being wide open, Minnesota being very good is 100% correct. But then you look at their key players like Zach Phrise, Miko Koevoo, Ryan Souter, these are all guys in their early 30s.

Like if Minnesota can't go for it this year, I don't know that they can with this core. Like this is, and even somebody like Devon Dubnick is 30 years old. And that's to say nothing of, you know, you're Eric Stahl or some of the other guys on this roster. It's, they do have some good young players, but a lot of the key positions are being held by guys who skew quite a bit older and who are under contract for a long time. So when you, when you signed Souter and Parize a few years back and their contracts go on forever, they're going to eventually drag this franchise down, right? Like when they're 36, 37, 38, still taking up $15 million in cap space, it's going to be very difficult for you to win. So you have to win now. It gets harder next year.

It gets harder the year after that. This is definitely a go-for-a-year from Minnesota. Yep. I agree with that. It's tough to argue. Okay. Let's pivot here and let's go through some fun potential trades that haven't happened yet. We've already covered the ones that have.

I'll start with an easy one. And I'm starting with this one mostly instead of, you know, it would make sense that I'd be a courteous host and give my guest the opportunity to talk first. But I've got to get this one out of the way before you possibly steal it from me. So I'm going to go with PA Parento to the Flames. And the reason, I mean, you could say PA Parento to pretty much like eight or 19 teams, pretty much every competitor could use PA Parento at this point. But I think that from the Flames perspective, they fascinate me because a few weeks ago,

we saw all these hot takes about what's wrong with Johnny Goodrow. Like, is he slowing down? Has the league figured him out? What's going on with him? Like, did the Flames make a mistake for paying so much for him? And it's like, listen, he was playing. with guys that were below his level. And not that Michael Furland is a guy that is a great player, but he can at least keep up with the pace Johnny plays at. And having a guy like that in his

right wing, I mean, we've seen the past few games. All these chances and all these goals have started to come. And all of a sudden, no one's really worrying about what's going on with Goodrow anymore. And I think that if the flames are smart, they look at this and they go, okay, well, parento has definitely has the skill and you've shown the ability in the past to step right in and kind of mesh perfectly with great players and contribute and he'll be cheap. And I think that even more than that, he's the type of player of the flame should be looking at just because, yes, he's a rental, but he's also, this is a bit of an audition period for them where they can take him for a test ride, see if they like him, see if they want to bring him in back

this summer. And, you know, they have the space and flexibility on their roster to do so. So I think those are the types of moves that they should be looking at now that help them in the present, but potentially could also be solutions for, you know, next year and the years ahead as well. See, now I did have a Calgary trade. I did have it for a right wing, and I did have

it for a guy who could work with Johnny Goddrow, but the player I had in mind was not PA Parento. It was Yuri Hootler. Oh, man, that's... But it's in the same range, but for me, the thing that put Hoodler over the top is

he's, you know, he spent two years there, like on that line basically and they were pretty effective. He's not going to cost very much. The cap hits a little higher than Parenthoes, but the asset cost should be in the same range because Hootler's had such a tough year. Like it's a bit more of a gamble,

but I just think that because of that familiarity, maybe he's the guy that if I'm Calgary, I'd be looking at. Yeah, and then think about all the reuniting with an old flame headlines that we could run with as well. I feel like that'd be a little brain. I always try and keep half an eye out for that, yeah. You know what? I had an interesting guy here that I think if the Flames could somehow get a guy like Yannick Hansen, that would be ideal. I mean, obviously he's going to be more expensive. And there's the whole intra-division factor where I think the Canucks might be wary of trading him to a guy that they have such history with. But if that deal is possible, I think that, you know, we heard a lot of rumblings this weekend about how teams are interested in Yannick Hansen, but because of the expansion draft and the fact that they're going to,

have such a number of crunch with guys they can protect. They don't want Hansen because he still has another year in his deal. But the flames are one of the few teams that is in kind of that unique, has that unique buying opportunity where they don't have enough forwards that they necessarily need to keep. And I think that they could very conceivably trade for Hansen and be very comfortable keeping him in the, protecting him from the expansion draft and bringing him back next year and reuniting that same role. And he's a fantastic player and would be just a massive upgrade over everything Monaghan and Goodro have played with so far. So if the Canucks were willing to trade within division and the price wasn't too steep,

I think that's the first call I'd be making. I've always been a big fan of Yannikamps. And I love players that you can kind of slot anywhere from the complementary first line role to a designated third line, peer checking line role. And we'll do well pretty much wherever they're put. And Calgary is in that situation. Edmonton's another team in that situation where they could use a right, wing, quality NHL right wing, and have some room to play with in terms of expansion.

So I think, I think if, basically, I think if you have enough forwards, if you don't have seven guys who you're really worried about protecting, Anna Kansom makes sense to you. I don't care who you are. Like, he's just a, he's a very good player. He's very reasonably priced and he'll help you now. Yeah, yeah, for sure. He's always been one of these guys that, you know, his counting stats might not necessarily blow you out of the water, but most of his production.

comes to 5-15, and if you just rate it by how often he's playing, he's, he's like a surprisingly elite guy. I think that the past two years, he's, like, tied with, with Hugenie Malkin at, at 5-15 points per hour, not that they're the same caliber player, but it just kind of shows you how productive he's been in the opportunities he's been given. So I think he's a no-brainer. Okay, give me a hypothetical trade that you'd like to see. Okay. I think that Brian Boyle, it's the top center on the market, makes a world of sense for San Jose. San Jose doesn't have, like, I know San Jose has the thing where they run Pavalski and Thornton

and Joel Ward takes a lot of face-offs, but when I look at their roster, it looks to me like they're one good player away from having a really vicious line one through four combination and just having the depths to go head-to-head with anybody. I look at the Pacific. I don't see anybody who can match them in a head-to-head series with Minnesota. I think I slightly prefer San Jose and I'd prefer a bit more if they had a little more depth at center. Brian Boyle's not the, you know, like an absolute slam dunk perfect fit, but I don't see a guy on the market who's a better fit for that position. Yeah, yeah.

I think that's going to be like you could basically just copy paste this response to pretty much every single trade proposal, but it's like for the right price, I'd be very interested. it's like obviously you know if the prices are exorbitant for a guy like brian boeh just because he's a big center as we mentioned with with marty hansel then i'd be wary of that but because i'm not sure how much he moves the needle for you but if you can get him for like a depth pick or something like that i mean it's a it's a it's a no-brainer and if it doesn't work out whatever you just let him walk the summer and you just you just kind of move on it's not you're not overly committed to it financially or anything so i i don't see anything wrong with that well and in san Jose it's they're in they're

They're like we discussed with Minnesota, the age of their core players. With San Jose, it's, you know, so much more so. They're just, they're very close to the end of their window and, uh, you kind of have to hang the expense a little bit sometimes, I think. Yeah, that's fair. Um, okay, my trade number two is, uh, really going to get this party started. Um, I think that I'd like to see Justin Falk to the Oilers. And I, here's my reasoning. Uh, everyone's in. with Shattrayed with Shattonkirk, and understandably so. I think, you know, he's a superior player, and he would definitely, uh, he's, Shaddkerk is exactly what the, what the Oilers need at this point, but I'm kind of wary of what the price is for him. And after the story that came out about how there was a deal with Hall for Shaddenkirk on the table and then Shaddenkirk didn't want to sign with the Oilers and didn't really want to play there. So that's why that deal got mixed. Like, I'd understand if that's something that wasn't revisited, but you look at Falk and I think they're in an interesting buying opportunity here because he's a pretty kind of serviceable alternative to

Shant Kirk. I mean, he's good with the puck. He's a massive weapon on the power play with a shot from the point. And those are things that, as we mentioned, the last time you and I chatted when we kind of did a deep dive on the Oilers, those are two things they really need from their blue line right now. And I think that, you know, a year ago even at this time, it would have seemed like a crazy idea that he'd even be available because young defensemen who are productive and are under contract like he is, I think three years for another 4.8 per or so, are ever really available. But with the emergence of guys like Jacob Slavin and Brett Pesci and they have Noah Hanofin there on the way up and they have some other intriguing guys. And they're also kind of facing this

number crunch where there's only so many guys they can protect and they don't really want to lose any of these guys for nothing. So I think if they could potentially spin one of these guys into something and I think that, you know, Justin Falk seems like he'd have a lot of trade value and he fits what the oilers need, so why not explore that? The one thing I'd point out about Carolina's position relative to expansion is that I don't think they're actually, I'd have to go back and look, but I don't think they're in a position where they have to do anything because so many of their defensemen are going to be exempt. They've got a ton of guys who have two years of experience entering expansion and are going

to be eligible for selection. That's a good point. There were some rumors, there were, well, persistent rumors actually in Edmonton last year that a Justin Falk for Ryan Nugent Hopkins trade was at least discussed at some level. And it made a lot of sense for Carolina. It made a lot of sense for Edmonton because of the dynamic that you've just suggested. The problem now is, I think in trading, if you were to trade for Justin Falk, Nugent Hopkins has not had a good year. and even ignoring that, I don't know that the Oilers have the forward depth. You subtract Taylor Hall from that forward core, and it's the Connor McDavid show.

Like, well, like we talked about last time, we were talking about the Oilers. I think I'd probably still do it from an Edmonton position if it was a Nugenthalpkins for Falk sort of deal just because that would set your defense up long term in great shape. But it's much trickier now. well what do you think about something built around jordan eberle instead well i i i think you do that in a heartbeat but i like i i don't get the incentive for carolina like i like i like everleigh a lot but you know like when carolina can go out and get a lee stampiac who you know he's not everleigh but he he does a lot of things well he's a lot cheaper um i i just i don't know that the value's there for a winger yeah i'm just i'm just interested in

because, I mean, I know that, you know, they've infused some skill into their lineup up front this year, and they're not in shooting percentage hell as they were in the past years. So maybe the incentive to get a guy like Eberle is less. But, like, I also look at their depth chart right now, and they have guys like Philip D. Giuseppe playing on their second line, right, weighing, and they have Lee Stemniak playing with T. T.I.O. Vinen, and I'm a hugely Stemniak fan. But I think that, you know, providing some of these skilled young players they have with actual

finishers and guys who can keep up with him on an offensive and creativity level would be an interesting thing to me. And Eberle is, what, he has two more years at six million per, and he's still only 26 years old. Like, I think that, you know, the thing with Eberley is everyone's getting on his case now, but it's like he was a 14% shooter for six full seasons. And then all of a sudden now he's like hovering around 8 to 9% and it's like, what's probably the real true talent level there. I'd be betting on Jordan Eberley bouncing back to, you know, even if it's not 14, at least like the more league average for forwards level around 12. It seems like something that I don't know. I'm still buying Jordan Eberley even though he struggled this year is what I'm saying.

Yeah, I, you're absolutely right about Eberle's shooting percentage. My thing with Eberle is just that he's, he's a very good offensive producer, but he is a somewhat one-dimensional player. Like I think when he's a, you know, like most years he's going to score 25 goals and 65 points. And that's got so much value that you can live with him being a little bit one-dimensional. And if you're Carolina, which has a very decent two-way team in a lot of different ways, and particularly with that defense score, but is dying for offense. You can maybe live with that a little bit more than other clubs might.

I just, I don't, when I look at the market, I just, I wonder. a little bit if you can get a defenseman like Falk for a winger like Everleigh. That's just what I keep coming back to. Like if the price for like Justin Falk to me is very comparable to Adam Larson in terms of trade value and Jordan Eberle is not comparable to me in terms of Taylor Hall. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I don't know.

I definitely think that Falk is worth more as an asset than Eberley. I would say Eberley and some other assets. It would have to be like kind of like a little bit of a package. And I think that, you know, Carolina would be intrigued just because as you mentioned, that one dimension that Jordan Eberle does provide is something. that they could really use on that team. And they haven't really had many guys like him. Like they have Jeff Skinner,

but just like very offensively gifted forwards that could really move the needle for them in that regard. And they're also a team that has shown that they're very interested in stockpiling assets. And I feel like if the oilers kind of sweeten the paw with some picks or something like that, all of a sudden you could get an interesting trade going. But anyways, I just thought it was sort of an interesting thing

that could fit both teams' needs, not necessarily something that I think will happen, but just something I kind of wanted to flesh out with you. Yeah, I think it's an ideal. Like, Falk's a fantastic fit for Edmonton in so many ways, and particularly with Larson is their other right D, because then you can have two very specialized pairings, like San Jose does with Brent Burns and Mark Edward Vlasic on separate pairs.

So I think it's a great fit there. I'm just a little bit more dubious about the fit for Carolina, but you are right that they need offense. That's fair. Okay, what's your next trade? well I'm going to circle back to Minnesota I think I like what they've what they've done in adding Hansel

just in terms of what it does to their winning their odds of winning right now when I look at their defense though I see five guys that I like and I'm not to me that looks like an area where you could add a sixth guy either a left shot D or a right shot D depending on on whether you want to dump on the second pairing

I assume that they're probably would keep Dumba there and put Scandela on the third pair, in which case I kind of like the idea of Cody Franzen. I mean, I like Cody Franzen for a lot of teams, because if you can't get Kevin Chatton, Cody Franzen is the right shot guy who can do some things for you. Yeah, I was going to say, not just for the wild. You just like the idea of Cody Franzen in general. Not for the Oilers, weirdly enough, but for a lot of different teams.

I like Franzen for Minnesota. I actually like Fransen for Columbus. and well I don't want to tip my hand on the Rangers here because I'm sure we're going to get to that but as a potential one for the Rangers too. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. Franson would definitely fit the need for a lot of teams and unlike some other guys, he would definitely probably come at a much cheaper price than he's actually worth just because of this weird. Like there's these guys around the league like him and, you know, PA Parentho is another guy that we mentioned earlier where for whatever reason like their actual on ice production and what they bring to the table has.

never matched up with the way people seem to talk about them in hockey circles. It's like, I don't know what it is. Maybe it's like just the way they play. They're not necessarily the flashiest players or the most exciting or like they don't have these immense physical skills that just pop off the page for you. And when you watch them, you just go, wow, that guy's a brilliant talent. But they're so productive that that's all that really matters. It's like how many, how many goals are you bringing to the table to my team?

And they, they, their net positive is quite a bit. So I just don't get it. yeah i i think with franz and it's it's easier just because he's like when somebody has like sort of a massive flag issue which for franzan is you know skating relative to for the nch l. he's obviously much better skater than i am but when it's when you have a defenseman who looks slow at points it can just look so bad that um i think you'll lose a lot of the other things that he does well yeah especially when a guy like beats him out wide and then it becomes it becomes a gift that everyone's passing around on twitter it's like oh cody franzas i'm

and sucks. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's fair. Okay, let's get into the, let's get into the Rangers discussion because I think that, you know, they were next on my list for a potential trade and it's not Kevin Shaddenkirk again.

I actually cannot find a fit for Kevin Shaddenkirk other than maybe the Leafs, but it just like... You don't like him for the Rangers. Well, I love them for the Rangers, but I just, from their perspective, I don't understand why they would give up a top prospect and a first rounder when he's going to sign there this summer.

I just don't think that Kevin Shaddenkirk on this team makes them better than the Capitals or the Penguins, and that's just tough for me to reconcile that fact that they're giving up so much, and it's ultimately not going to make that much of a difference for them. It'll definitely give them a better fighting chance against those teams, but I'd still pick those other two teams in a series against them. Well, I just, I have to poke in there because you're right. I agree with you. But I think the thing that the range works really well in the Rangers favor is they're probably

going to play Montreal in the first round. And when I look at the Atlantic Division, you know, I've got a lot of time for Florida now that they're healthy. I've got a lot of time for Toronto. But if the Rangers shift over to the Atlantic Division, they might be the favorite there. And if you can come up through the Atlantic Division, you only have to beat one of Pittsburgh, Washington, and Columbus. And you only have to beat them after they've gone through.

the other two, right? Yep. So that, that to me is where it might make a bit of sense where if you've got, I was listening to your podcast with Chris Johnston. I think you mentioned, you called it a puncher's chance. And to me, that makes a lot more sense if you're in a situation where you only have to, you only have to beat these teams once. If you've got to go through three rounds of top level opponents, then a puncher's

chance doesn't do any good. But if you only have to survive one round against those guys, then it's a different story. Well, I'm glad you brought this up. I was going to say this for a future podcast or something, but we need to talk about the system. I mean, this is, this is one of the, this is one of the dumbest subplots going on in NHL right now, and people aren't talking nearly enough about it. I mean, I feel like I've mentioned that on, we have like a Cow Ripkin level streak of like 60 podcasts where I've mentioned it in a row now, but it's like, you watch these Rangers games. I mean, they're playing the Blue Jackets yesterday and every, every Rangers fan. People are cheering when Columbus scores.

Every Rangers fan that is thinking about it at all is just cheering for Columbus to beat them. And it's like, this is a joke. I mean, people make such a stink in this league about how there's a tanking problem. And it's like when teams aren't winning games, when the Sabres aren't trying to feel the competitive lineup, it's like, oh, they're making a mockery of the league. It's like, this is a much bigger mockery, in my opinion, where you have the Rangers who are a very good team. Just like, you know, the players themselves are obviously trying. but it's like if you're elan vinyo if you're jeff gordon if you're just anyone in the rangers organization you're looking at this and you're thinking okay what like how can we lose like

the most games possible here without like just completely self-destructing and throwing everyone like off the deep end and and it's like yesterday's result was perfect where they just they lose to a team like columbus they didn't need great Columbus please take those two points like i was i was joking the other day when they were down late to the devils and adam krundening scored a goal of the senate to overtime and they eventually won it and I was like, oh man, Alain Vinyo's been looking for a reason all season to bench Adam Clinton. And I think this is probably the most egregious think he's done all year.

It's truly ridiculous. Like, there's always going to be an element of gaming the system, but you'd like it to not be so obvious. I just pulled up the stats sheet here. Because I had to know what the number was. The top three teams in the Metropolitan have a combined goal differential of plus 167. The top three teams in the Atlantic have a combined goal differential of plus 22. The Rangers alone are plus 42.

It's so lopsided. And then you get the east-west thing where there's 16 teams in the east and there's only 14 in the west. And like we've talked about Calgary and trying to get into the playoffs this year, if you take Carolina or New Jersey or Philadelphia out of the east teams that are absolutely not going to make it and you play them in a Western Conference schedule all year, I think there's a decent chance any of those teams are ahead of Calgary right now.

It is ridiculous. I understand why the league does it. I do think there's value in meeting the same opponents in the playoffs and it really does create a rivalry factor but it's so bad in terms of fairness of competition and it leads to this sort of stupidity.

Yeah, I just, it's one of the dumbest things going right now. It brings me great joy. But I just hope the Rangers like, shameless, like, just like shamelessly lose some of these games, like without even just pretending like they want to win. And like, it's like, it's so funny to me. I don't know.

I don't know. Like, the more egregious it gets, like, maybe the more spotlight and the bigger stink people will be making about it and it'll lead to some changes down the road. But I don't know. It's, uh, so, so you like Shaddenkirk to the ranger as, as a fit at this deadline. I, yeah. I, uh, I, I, I, I, I get. I think the argument that you've, the counter argument that you've made is the correct counter

argument that they're going to have such a good chance in the summer to sign him anyway. It doesn't make sense to pay a fortune for him. It really comes down to what the single playoff run is worth to them. And, you know, you've made a really compelling point. Maybe the better play there is to go out and get a Cody Franz and somebody cheap who can bump Dan Gerardi off. Like somebody cheap who Ryan McDonough can play away. so that he, you know, doesn't go crazy.

And just sign Chattonkirk in the summer. Maybe that is the better play. Because I often think of the Rangers as being an old team, but they're really not. They've got so many good young forwards that they aren't in the same situation as a Minnesota or San Jose, even with Henrik Lundfuss being, you know, towards the end of his career. Yeah, and I think that, you know, we mentioned Cody Franzen's lack of footspeed and why that might turn teams off, but I think from the Rangers perspective, they need a, from what they need from their blue line are more than anything is a guy that can quickly get the puck to their forwards with speed,

right? And I think that Franzen's ability to move the puck and handle it will be much more useful to this team than any sort of, you know, they don't, they don't necessarily need him to carry the puck a lot or, or do anything electrifying with his foot speed. Like, it's, it's about the movement of the puck more than anything else with his team. And I think that's why it's a logical fit. Yeah. I, I, agree with that. So I think Brendan Smith is an interesting name we need to talk about because I think for years he's been Detroit's second best defenseman. I mean, behind Mike Green now, I just don't really see anyone else that you could even make that argument for. I mean, Nicholas Jensen has shown some flashes here, but we don't really, we don't have enough of a sample to know exactly what he is as a

player. And it's like, I think that it's bizarre to me. It makes sense that, you know, Brendan Smith isn't very young anymore. I mean, just in terms of like, we think of it. We keep thinking him as this guy with endless potential, like, when he came, when he burst onto the scene coming from the college level. It's like he hasn't really reached that, that ability yet. And I don't, I don't think he will because he's been around for so long and he's getting up there in hockey years that this is probably who he is.

But I think that this is who he is is a perfectly valuable, like, second pairing defensemen on a good team. And the Rangers are an interesting option. I also think that a team like the Canadians make. a lot of sense just based on looking at, you know, I know they made a move for Nikita Nesterov, and unfortunately they also parted ways with Mark Barbario. I feel like Mark Barbario should be their target at this point, but it's like, you watch this pairing especially with Weber and Emmeline, and it's just pretty clear that it's not going to work. I mean, they just don't, they don't have enough

foot speed on that pairing, and they've really been getting exposed lately. And, you know, you don't want to be relying too much on a guy like Andre Marcove just based on how many miles he has on him and you don't really know what to expect from a guy like Nathan Bulleyu. So I think that the Canadians have a really good team and now they have a really good coach and you know their goaltending is going to be strong. I think the blue line is something they're looking to address. I know they've basically made it pretty clear that they're trying to kind of move Greg Patteron for a guy that's kind of like Greg Pattern. I don't know what that even, where that takes them. But I think that they should be instead looking at a guy like Brennan Smith as a potential fill in there.

I agree that they should probably add a left shot defenseman. I don't know that Smith would be my top target. There are going to be some other options out there. There might be a... I look at Philadelphia. Maybe there's something to be done with Strider Del Zotto. Maybe Dimitri Kulikov out of Buffalo, depending on the price. There are a few different options.

And I don't know that Brendan Smith is a guy you necessarily want to play on your Web repairing either. Yeah, that's fair. But I'm glad you brought up Brendan Smith, because it, lets me tell my favorite story about running out to get the annual hockey news prospect report year after year, the top 100 prospects in the league. Brendan Smith being a top 10 prospect like five years in a row. He was one of those one of those affinna prospects who was never, never like, and those guys never live up to the hype, do they?

Like once, if you're famous for being a good prospect, the odds are you're going to be, you know, a pretty average player. Yeah. But he's also, I mean, to be, like, he's fine. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, he's fine. He's not prolific. He's fine.

Yeah. A guy that has been generating a lot of buzz and sort of understandably so because, you know, he's still only 22 years old. And he was a former first round pick and not even a late one. He was sort of in that middle tier. It's like, he's a guy like Curtis Lazare. And I know that you're familiar with him a bit from his time playing for the oil kings. And, you know, people have been drawing, drawing the lines like, oh, Redmondton should bring him back. home and you know that that fit makes a lot of sense and uh i you know other than geographical

things aside i don't i don't really see it but i'm kind of curious with a guy like curtis lazar just because we sort of have to figure out with a guy like him it's like he's played 33 games this here and he has one assist and zero goals and he's been playing in the league for in what nearly like two hundred games now and he hasn't really been producing at all like he's one one of the least productive flares we've had in the league over the past three years but he also is a guy who pretty clearly has at least a bit of skill and it's not that long ago that he was a top prospect and you know you have all these cautionary tales that scare you off from just giving up on a guy too soon like this whether it was like a need on need a rider in new york or whoever like there's there's a lot of examples over history but it's like with him would you be if you were running a team would you be willing to take a calculated risk on him hoping that maybe a change of scenery or just something like that or just time kind of gets him to burst out of his shell, or do you think we've seen enough at this point

to just conclude that he's just never really going to reach that level that he thought he would? I agree with you that you don't want to write a guy off. And Nita Ryder is actually a really good example of sort of the best case scenario, I think, for a guy like Lazar, where he kind of emerges as a decent middle six option who can do a lot of things for you.

I don't know that it's the probable outcome, but my thing with Lizar, is if Ottawa is saying privately, the things they're saying publicly, which is basically we want a real return if we're going to trade this guy, we're not going to move him as sort of a reclamation prospect. I think that rules them out. You mentioned he has one point in 33 NHL games. He's got four points in 13 American League games this year.

This is not a guy who scores in the AHL either, admittedly over just a tiny sample. But there's nothing there that I see that he had 20 points in the NHL one year. Right. Aside from the fact that he's 22 and has some junior pedigree, I don't see why you pay a lot for him. I think the price would have to come down to maybe something like what Nail Yakupov came down to this summer where it was a conditional pick. And if he produced, the pick gets sweetened a bit. That's where I'd consider it. But I wouldn't do it for a real asset without that kind of security. Yeah. Yeah, an interesting parallel, and at least this guy produced in the HL as far as I'm concerned. But a guy like Brett Connolly a few years ago, I remember, that the Bruins, I believe, paid like two seconds for him. And I thought that was a very steep price for a guy that had the pedigree, but had never really done anything. And he quickly washed out of Boston.

And now he's sort of resurfaced as like a very useful third line member of the Washington Capitals team. And we'll probably make some nice, nice money this summer as a free agent. But it's like, I guess that would be a more realistic best case scenario because I'd be blown to wait right now if Curtis Luzar wound up being like me, no need a rider like four or five years from now. I just, I just don't see that. Yeah, I tend to agree with you. Connolly's a great example of why you don't pay for these guys though. Like when I was looking this summer at options for the oilers because they needed right wings bad, Connolly was a name that I hit again and again and again, just because

he played on the Bergeron line in Boston, which is a sign, you know, that he can handle that sort of thing and he did have the offense as a junior player. And he's been a very, like, he's been a very, like, He's not a special player, but he's a very useful NHL guy, sort of in the same class as Brendan Smith. And the thing is, he was available for basically nothing this summer. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Okay, so two final things before we get out of here. One, do you think we see a team trade for a goalie,

considering what we just heard about the fact that there was no real market for a guy like Ben Bishop? I was really, because you asked me to prepare a couple of, potential trades here and I was really, really looking to make something work in net. And I just had a ton of trouble. The one situation that came to mind is if Calgary likes Mark Andre Fleury and Pittsburgh's public declarations are somewhat misleading, then I could see something there where maybe you move Johnson and something else to Pittsburgh for Fleury. I don't know that I'd make that trade if I was Calgary though.

The guy who really intrigues me is Erislav Halak, but it would have to be a bad contract for bad contract kind of thing. For Edmonton, I really like the idea of something like Mark Fain plus a pick or a sweetener of some sort to the Islanders for Halak. Because I think the islanders could use a serviceable NHL defenseman, which Fane is. And the Oilers could certainly use a little bit more insurance in that. Yeah, I agree with that. And the last thing that we need to talk about before we get out of here is do you think

we see the avalanche make any sort of big splash beyond just moving like a guy like Jerome McGinlow for like some sort of depth pick like do you think we see either Landisgarg or Dushain actually moved or do you think this is something that stretches into the summer and we we we explore that then I think it stretches into the summer we don't usually see those those big landmark moves at the trade deadline it makes me sad I mean I'd love to see it at the trade deadline and and for Colorado I'd love to see it be Tyson Barry instead of Matt Duchin because I think that's in their best interest, but I don't expect either of those things to have. Yeah, yeah, me neither.

I just don't see a logical fit where a team would have the pieces to move for Matthew Shane without like it being kind of like a lateral move. Like, you know, we've heard these rumors of if the Canadians would be interested in trading a guy like Alex Galcanyuk for him. And I just don't really see how that makes sense. Like they're sort of similar players. I guess you can make the argument. Dushain might have.

be a bit better at the moment, but Galcanyac is cheaper and younger, and I just don't really think like that all of a sudden vaults them into this other tier as a team. So it's just like, it's kind of tough to find that fit that makes sense for both teams. Yeah, I wouldn't do it if I was Montreal and the price was Galchaniac.

I think maybe the best speculative fit I've seen would be to circle back to a team you mentioned earlier in Carolina. Maybe something, and this might be nuts, but maybe something built along around Noah Hanifax. Oh, yeah, yeah. I know that's a little, that's a little bit out there, but you know, you know, Colorado would be targeting somebody like Hanifin if they were going to trade Duchin. And Duchin would do a lot for Carolina. Wait, so who says no to a Matt Dushan for Justin Falkswap?

I think Colorado, unless they've got something else lined up for Tyson Berry, because Colorado's got both Eric Johnson and Tyson Barry on the right side. so they don't so justin falk is not as great a fit there i don't think unless they've got a second trade but and i'm always leery about setting up you know multiple trades to make sense in the sort of speculative exercise yes yeah all these domino effects need to happen to uh to make it no i think that would be an interesting thing for sure there's a sort of a need and and and uh and a fit there for both teams so i don't know it's like i want to see matthew shane in a better situation but at the same time i can't help but think that he deserves deserves to be in this hell just for the uh because he's basically to blame for for this offside madness

we have going on right now just because that egregious no call versus the predators a few years ago so now that we have to suffer through all of these offside reviews he can suffer suffer suffer through this losing season as far as i'm concerned well that's that's fair you you know there there are some real crimes that just can't be overlooked exactly uh jonathan uh thanks for thing in the time, man. This is, this is going to be the last show we're doing before the deadline. So hopefully people listen to this before anything crazy breaks and makes us seem like idiots or at least bigger idiots than we are. And yeah, this has been a lot of fun. I, you know, a public service announcement to everyone. Please make sure you double check when a, when a deal breaks on Twitter

to make sure it's actually the real deal. It's from a verified account. We had that incident with the Pergwins yesterday, which I don't want to revisit. So let's, just don't be that guy. Agargal and otherwise, enjoy the trade-outline festivities, and we will talk soon, okay? I appreciate you putting out the public service announcement. I'll second that. Look for the blue check market. You know, unless you're looking at my account, in which case, don't worry about it. Yeah, you're the fake Jonathan Willis as far as we're concerned.

Exactly. All right, man. Talk soon. Take care. The Hockey P.D.O.cast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at SoundCloud.com slash Hockeypediocast.