The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 173: Riding the Rinne Rollercoaster

Episode Date: June 8, 2017

Nick Mercadante joins the show to discuss the goaltending performances we've seen in this year's Stanley Cup Final, sort through the list of netminders that figure to be available this summer, and help fantasy book some trades for the Vegas Golden Knights.  The topics covered include: 0:55 Length of schedule, wear and tear, and quality of play 7:07 The Rinne Rollercoaster 18:50 Sticking with Matt Murray moving forward 23:11 Sorting through the veteran goalie options for Vegas 29:40 Jimmy Howard's return to form this season 33:30 Fantasy booking salary dump trades 51:51 The next wave of starting goalies Sponsoring today’s show is SeatGeek, which is making it easier than ever before to buy and sell sports and concert tickets. They’re giving our listeners a $20 rebate off of their first purchase. All you have to do is download the free SeatGeek app and enter the promo code PDO to get started. Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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My name is Demetri Filipovich. and joining is my good buddy Nick Mercadante. Nick, what's going on, man? I am watching playoff hockey and, you know, dealing with the fun narratives, not really, just I can't pick aside. Everybody's like, ah, be on the Nashville bandwagon. But then, you know, I got to kind of root for Nick Benino on Pittsburgh

because I coach the kid, but I don't like Pittsburgh. So I'm just kind of watching hockey. and like without a rooting interest, which is a weird kind of thing at this point. I think sometimes that's okay. I know. Well, in a way it makes it more fun because you're,

you know, you're just, well, so, you know, game four, for half of it was just a total mess, just sloppy hockey.

And so you're watching it, you're watching it hoping like a good hockey game will break out and it'll be fun to watch. I haven't really, I mean, it's been, the atmosphere has been cool. Right.

You know, the whole Nashville thing and all that. But I haven't really felt like it's been great hockey. You know what I mean? It's been exciting at times, but it's been kind of sloppy. And every game has had kind of like a dislike,

you know, it's not like both teams have been playing great at the same time in like a knockdown, drag out game, you know what I mean? Right. I mean, it is a bit of a shame just because I think that,

you know, if both these teams are healthy and had all of their weapons, it would be tremendous hockey. Yeah. Like, especially, like, you know, if the penguins had Chris LaTang, um, I just wonder what this series would look like because all of a sudden it would open up so many more avenues for them to actually sort of counterpunch more effectively with the predators and break, that breakthrough that forecheck a bit and create some opportunities with

their forwards. And then, you know, obviously, if you guys like Johansson and Kevin Fiala were healthy for the predators, I mean, I don't know, maybe we'll, we'll see a rematch between these teams next year and they'll be both be healthy. I mean, dare to dream, I guess. Yeah, look, I don't want to get too far down the path with analyzing what's been going on, but you're exactly right. So, you know, Nashville starts to play this much more aggressive game where they're getting on top of the Penguins' defensemen attacking them and really forcing turnovers.

The Penguins defensemen that are out there. You've got, you know, number six defensemen playing number. number two minutes, guys like Ron Hainzie, that, you know, just are not very capable with the puck on their stick and they're causing turnovers. What a difference it would make if every other shift you were sending Letang out there to break that up a little bit. It would just, it would have made for much more exciting, you know, game three and game four, I think. Well, and listen, I know that, you know, in this particular case, like, LaTang got injured during the regular season and hasn't played at all in the postseason and your hands in injury was sort of a freak injury.

that can happen at any point. But, you know, in terms of hockey culture, we like to kind of glorify how tough and difficult the playoffs are and what it takes physically as playoff warriors for these guys to get the job done and make it all the way. And while there is certainly a bit of a storytelling element to that, which is interesting, you also reach the point where you come towards end of the season and, like, all these guys are playing it way less than what they're actually capable of.

And as a result, the product isn't, it's just, it's sloppier and it's less, it's less dynamic and less exciting. And I think that that isn't something that we should be cheering for and glorifying. We should be calling it for what it is. Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. And it's hard to, you know, okay, what if the, you know, what if the, you know, what if this regular season was 40 games or 50 games? How would that, how would, how would, how would things look different?

Would teams be, you know, you know, hitting, stride physically, mentally, and everything else as they're reaching the playoffs as opposed to maybe, yeah, you know, mentally they're hitting stride as they get closer to the playoffs after a long regular season. But physically, you know, the tolls already been taken after, you know, six back-to-backs and traveling across the country 25 times and all that type of stuff. so yeah it sometimes makes the argument for less is more you know do we need 82 games Julian I know I know that's sort of the counter argument like against like if you like were to chop off a bunch of the games I mean obviously like it's not going to happen because

NHO be just forfeiting money but I know there is also sort of the stats argument to like we want more games so that you actually can determine like which which which who are the better teams the cream rises to the top and all this and you know you you'd actually have like the playoff teams that deserve to be in, more likely being in if you have more games for them to play out through the regular season. But at the same time, like, yeah, okay, let's let's go under the assumption that all 16 teams are the ones that should be making it every year because you have these 82 games. Then they come into the postseason and all of a sudden they could be out in like four or five games.

So it was all pretty much for nothing. Like it just seems like it's just such a, if you just take a step back and think about it, like if you didn't understand how the regular season and playoffs worked in North American professional sports and you just. just like if someone told you this, I imagine that you'd have a lot of questions as to why it's done the way it's done. Oh, yeah, for sure.

And for the NHL, specifically, because of, you know, the position it's in is, you know, whatever you want to call it, the fourth most popular sport in the United States. And obviously it has a different stature in Canada. But you kind of can't have it both ways. Like, you want to have the regular season, you want to have the regular season,

mean something. But everybody knows that the showcase for the NHL is the NHL playoffs. So if you want to have 82 games and tire them out, you might not get your best playoff hockey. Now, does the casual fan or the fan just tuning in for the playoffs really know that? You know, probably not. Maybe not. But, you know, what kind of different product would it be if, you know, the regular season was maybe 40, you know, 40-some-odd games? And, all these guys were maybe a little bit less fatigued and everything else. Yeah. Okay, well, let's be more positive because I know that whenever I go down this little rabbit

hole on the podcast where I complain about the NHL, people just reply with like, oh, like, you know, what are you complaining about? You have the best job in the world and this and that, and they're definitely right. And I agree with that. And the playoffs as a whole have been great and exciting and fun and all that. But let's talk about the goalies in this series. and I don't want to spend too much time on it because I feel like we've already sort of, you know, we've talked about Pecker-Renay versus U.C. Soros on this podcast between you and I

countless times this season. And I feel like we've laid out the case for both guys and we've sort of attacked it from every angle of manageable. So there's nothing necessarily new we can discuss. But I don't know, like what have you seen from Renee in this series beyond the obvious where, you know, he let everything in games one and two and then he stopped everything in games three and four, like sort of technically speaking and just from how he's look, like, like, what have you seen from his performance?

Well, I think it started, I think Pecorane started performing like his truer self against the ducks, especially late in the series. Even though they won the series, I felt like they won in spite of his performance, even in that last game, game seven, where, you know, however many saves, he made, 42 saves or whatever it was, you never felt like he was really in control. he was creating a lot of extra work for himself. He wasn't seeing the puck very well. And I think that carried right into the Penguin series.

I think the difference, you know, when you play a team like the Penguins, they just have a knack for capitalizing. Call it what you want, but they will put the puck in the net if you make too many mistakes. But like any team, it doesn't matter if they're, you know, at the top of their game or, you know, on a good stretch or whatever it is, sometimes, like I like to always say, puck's bounce funny. and so, you know, Renee looked pretty bad the first two games. That first game was almost embarrassing.

The third and fourth game, suddenly, you know, Nashville wins, and Lavillette looks like the hero for, you know, staying the course and trusting his goaltender and all this other stuff, and everybody's again talking about how Renee's a winner and all these other things. When the reality is, is he really didn't look that great in the past two times. games either. He wasn't seeing the puck well. He gave up a lot of rebounds and he created extra work for himself and he had to make desperation saves. And yes, you know, especially in game four, he made a lot of those saves. But you never really felt like he was under control. You always, to me at least, felt like he

was completely out of control and maybe the puck's just weren't bouncing the penguin's way. And like I said, that just happens, that's hockey. You know, it doesn't matter how good you are as a team. sometimes you're Alex Ovechkin and the puck jumps over your stick and you lose that opportunity. And it's the difference between putting it into the top corner and, you know, flubbing it and missing an opportunity. That's just what happens. And so I don't think, and I think Renee is what he is, there's this ongoing narrative too that, you know, it would be foolish to put a goalie like Soros into any position like this. but you don't have to go back very far,

go back to last year when the penguins were forced to put a goalie with absolutely no playoff experience who joined the team late in the season into the playoffs and he became a Stanley Cup hero. So there's no roadmap or recipe that says you can't take a guy

with no playoff experience and throw him into this position and have him be successful. All these guys are professionals. Well, it's funny especially since you know, Murray had slagely. slightly better numbers in the HL, but Saros has also been

completely dominant there, and he actually played, appeared in more games for the Predators this year than Merrin had last year for the Penguins before the playoffs started. So there definitely was an interesting parallel to draw there. Like, I don't know, we were talking before we click record on this thing about Renee,

and I am willing to acknowledge that, you know, it's possible there's a little confirmation bias involved here where it's like, you, you kind of see things in a certain light to support the narrative you're trying to spin. And I've obviously been critical of Renee and his performance. And I thought that they should have gone to Soros in game three. So I was watching it, you know,

maybe from a different perspective than someone who had thought they should be riding René the entire time because of what he means that a franchise would look at it at. But it did feel like while you can't argue with the results, like it, whenever I watch him, it's so funny how he just, it looks like the puck kind of hits him and you can make the argument, well, listen, he's a very big goalie. like it makes sense that the puck is going to hit him even though he kind of gets small sometimes and leaves a lot of net for shooters to shoot at but he he's so so frantic and so all over the place

and even like in game four you know twitter was a buzz with that sprawling save he made where he like dove across the crease and knocked it out of midair and it was a beautiful highlight real save but it was sort of that whole jonathan quick andre pavlik thing where it's like well if he was you know in a solid fundamentally sound position maybe he doesn't ever need to make that save and it doesn't look as exciting, but it still counts the same in the score sheet. So it's always so tough to evaluate guys like that because you see these remarkable feats of athleticism and you kind of get excited and let your mind wander and think of all the possibilities.

But then there's also an opportunity cost involved to what happens when he's not making those saves all of a sudden. Yeah. And, you know, look, being the unbiased and objected, goaltender evaluator that I am, I would say, I would say, I don't think your eyes are deceiving you when you feel like he looks like he's out of control. And I don't think you have to be some kind of goalie, guru, expert, coach, whatever it is, to see that. I actually think that the folks that see the opposite are the ones that are, you know, misguided. Any goaltender coach is going to tell you that Renee, the past several years, he just, he doesn't. He does. He doesn't. He does. He, you, he doesn't,

doesn't move the same way that he did early in his career, and that's related to injuries. And as a result of that, he can't, you know, his spastic movement is because he's always maybe a step off his angle line or a step behind because he's never been a good puck tracker. And when you're not a good puck tracker, you know, you, the two ways that you're going to stay on top of the puck are, first of all, you have to be lightning quick and be able to get back on your angle line as quickly as possible. And then the second way is that you have to be to be a good blocking goal and be able to control rebounds off your body maybe when you see them a little bit later than another guy might see them. And what you're really seeing is a goalie

who can't move like a John Quick. So he's getting into position late. Maybe he's not fully turned and set and square towards the puck. So when the puck does hit him, he has no idea where it's going to go. It really is just deflecting off of him. And he's not seeing the puck hitting him. and controlling those rebounds. And all you have to do, you know, in game five, watch his eyes when he makes a save. He will not look the puck into his body. He will still be looking ahead of him or, you know, kind of catch it late. You'll see him turn towards the puck as it hits him or just after it hits him.

And then he's kind of scrambling around looking for the puck on the ice in front of him. And that's what leads to a lot of those deflections that pop out right in front of the net, that, you know, especially in games one and two, the penguins capitalized on, is he just doesn't know where the puck is. Well, even in game three, the only goal they scored was sort of a bad rebound like that, where he just kind of lost track of it, and Gensel just put it in. Yeah, when he was younger, you know, like I said, he moved a lot better. And I will say, like, he has a great, he's always had a great glove when he sees the puck.

And when he was younger, he relied on that glove to make a lot of saves out of position. He would reach across his body or whatever it is. It's kind of the finished way of goaltending. Get your glove up out in front of you and open-faced. Don't close your thumb. Keep it out and open so you can kind of move it anywhere you want, almost like a catcher in baseball. And so he'd rely on his glove to make up for lost time where he's not in position.

And I just think that he can't even really do that anymore. So you're seeing a goalie who, he's big, he's good enough. He'll have a big game here and there where, you know, he scrambles and makes some saves maybe he shouldn't make. But it's not going to be consistent. You know, game five, it's not like, okay, now this guy's right at the ship and he's going to be, you know, solid for the next several games. Like, he could be a mess in game five and give up five quick goals or, you know, four on 12 shots. That's sort of a disconcerting thing for if you're a predator's fan here because I feel like that's sort of the opposite of what you're looking for right now from your goalie. Like, you know, they've looked like the superior team at 5-1-5 especially, and I feel like, you know, this is going to go one of two ways.

Either Renee is just going to completely implode kind of like he did in the first two games, and the Predators are going to have a really difficult time overcoming that because when you get goal-tending performance like that, regardless of how much you dominate the shot volume, is going to be really tough to overcome, or he's going to be fine and they're going to win. but it's like, I don't know, it's just, it's scary that, like, he does have that wide range of results. And that's, like, this team just needs sort of like a steady average performance right now. And that's going to be enough for it. And I don't know, I guess it'll be fast. Like, anything can happen. There's only up to three games left in the season. So it's going to be fascinating to see which Renee we do get in those games.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, saying all this, I actually, somebody asked me after game two, do you pull René, I know. And I said, yeah, the side of me that, you know, that says everything I've said the past few years about Renee, says, yeah, absolutely. But the side of me that's a coach says, that sends the wrong message to the rest of the team. I think at this point it's too late. You know, if this performance came, if those performances came, maybe at the beginning, maybe even at the beginning of the conference finals, that, that, might be the time to do it, but I think it's two, when it's game three of the Stanley Cup finals

and you're yanking, your prohibitive starting goalie, permanent starting goalie for a guy who hasn't played a game, a playoff game. I do kind of get that from a coaching perspective. The team starts to go, uh-oh, are we in panic mode? Did I miss something? Are we not playing as well as I thought we were? And it might send the wrong message. But look, Saros is the goalie of the future. He's probably, unless something crazy happens in the next few games, he's probably not going to get in. That's all right.

I think that Nashville will be fine in spite of Renee. But if I'm the penguins, and I'm coaching the penguins, I'm going in the locker room and saying, look, I don't care what the score was the past two games. Renee does not look good. Fire the pucks on the net. The penguins have a little bit of a tendency to hold on to it too long. because of all the skill, they're looking for the perfect play and the perfect shot,

you can beat Renee on the first shot, especially with the screen. Just fire away. That's, I think, the approach they should be taking going into game five. Yeah. No, I mean, you saw Ron Haines, he almost scored from Center Ice. And I don't know what's more remarkable that it was from Center Ice or the Ron Haines he almost scored a goal. Both are very improbable.

Hey, Connecticut native Ron Haines. I can't say too much a negative about him. Yes, that's true. Yeah, on the other end of the ice, like, I know that, you know, you brought up this idea that there's been questions raised about whether the penguin should stick with Murray or not.

And, like, I think he's looked fine. Like, honestly, have any of the goals he's given up even been that bad? Like, we, it seems like we have this annual playoff tradition where the other team, you know, scores some goals and they're generally high-gloved side. And all of a sudden, everyone becomes a goalie expert and says that the goalie in question has a noticeable flaw in

his game, a chink in the armor that can be exploited. And it's like, yeah, you know what that flaw is? It's what every other goalie struggles with. And it's if you face enough shots, eventually some of them will get by you. And Murray wasn't going to keep stopping like 98% of the shots or whatever he stopped for the first two games. And the predators to their credit it also wound up creating some very, you know, high quality scoring chances as well, especially around the net, taking advantage of their turnovers and creating some breakaways. And it's going to happen. Like, Murray still has a higher, say, percentage in this postseason that he had last year.

I think he's fine. Yeah, he's come, look, he's sitting at, I think, a 902 overall for the first four games in Stanley Cup finals. The last three games of the conference finals used at 9-4-6 or something crazy like that. It kind of comes out in the wash type of thing. I don't think, you know, again, I don't think that the Penguins lost because of Murray. I think that that third goal, the Arvidson goal in game four, that was a backbreaker. That was one where he screwed up. As much as it was a breakaway and kind of a quick development.

playing off a turnover, which is tough for a goalie. In many ways, the way that that breakaway came about and the way it was executed, it's actually a much easier, it's an easier save than you think for a lot of goalies. Because it's a blocking save, what you really want to do on those quick developing plays, the shooter has no time to deek there. He's just, he's getting the puck as quick as he can and he's trying to fire it. And all Murray really had to do was take one more step out, square up, and get down and block. Keep his glove low so that if the puck goes up, he can just, you know, he's not guessing.

He's just shooting his arm up. Get his pads out, wide out, flared, and just get down in front of it. Those are saves that, you know, if you've watched enough John Quick, those are the ones where everybody goes, oh, my God, how does he make that save? It's because he's super aggressive, so he's always going to take that. he doesn't even think about it. That's his default play. What happened with Murray there was he thought about it

and he actually stutter stepped and he got back on his heels and as soon as he did that, he was forced, he couldn't be in a blocking position anymore he had to make the save. He had to react. And so what ended up happening, he tried to react and he just missed. And Arvinson made, you know, put a nice shot, past his glove

and that's game, that's ballgame. So you could point to that is kind of a back-breaking goal that I would put on the goalie. But then again, it's a breakaway. You know, and I don't think the team's going to blame it on him. You know, there were a couple articles I saw that came out today saying, should he be the starter for game five? Nothing like what Flurry gets.

You know, Flurry has one bad period, and they're calling for his head, and then, you know, everybody wants him out, and they want Murray in. Murray's the, you know, kind of the golden boy of the playoffs because of last year. you know i think flurry gets treated unfairly i think murray but at the same time i don't think murray deserves like any kind of crazy criticism for his performance i thought he was fine yeah um yeah i agree with that i think they should uh you know stay the course and and as you mentioned like that was a back breaking goal but i think it was what the third goal and the payments the team scored one the entire game so it's like you know they're going to need to control the puck a bit more and take advantage of

some of these opportunities and get get some pass ren and then i think murray's going to be fine enough to keep them in the game regardless so let's let's let's let's let's just shift gears here and and have a fun little exercise that i thought we could uh we could we could do to take advantage of the fact that we have the pdo cast resident goalie guy uh on the show right now and um i thought that you know i i put together a list of uh the goalies that'll be available this summer whether it's free agents or whether we figure they're going to be unprotected by their current team and be exposed for Vegas to potentially claim them in the expansion draft. And we can sort through some of these names and figure out whether they're intriguing bets for Vegas to gamble on or whether.

Oh, this is my favorite stuff. Yeah. I love stuff. You also see that. You also see that little pun I had there with a little play on words of Vegas gambling on these guys. You see that? I like it. I like it.

Don't worry. There's more where that came from. You must be a professional. You must be. So there's not too many UFAs that are interesting. Obviously, I don't want to get you going, but the two tough guys are probably Steve Mason and Brian Elliott. They're like your two favorite goalies.

So I think you would probably beg to differ that there aren't too many intriguing UFAs available. There's also my personal favorite, John Francois Baroube. And I'm like smirking and internally giggling right now for those that I can't relay that from listening to this show. Everybody's like, why are we listening to this nonsense about Eve Mason? John Francois Barruve, yeah. It's happening.

We still don't know if John Renzoa Barouba, is actually a real person. I still haven't. But let's look at the guys that are going to be unprotected in the expansion draft because there's like three camps you can break them into, right? There's like the aging vets who have for whatever reason been supplying. in the organization by like either a younger cheaper guy or their contracts are two owners or the team's just going in a different direction and then you've got like the young unproven guys who

have been sort of cutting their teeth in the league as backups and we don't know whether what they really are but they seem intriguing and then you've got like sort of the conventional al montoya career backups who um i don't know don't really have that much appeal like i guess they could be interesting as a as a third goalie for cheap or something but but they don't necessarily warrant too much of our time or interest here. But there's a lot of guys in the first camp of the sort of the aging, expensive vets. I mean,

there's like 10 guys that are, you know, they're probably bigger names than their play actually warrants right now. But also you could see, uh, them catching Vegas's eye either to, um, you know,

hit financial requirements or if they go the cheap route or with, with the rest of their team or just, you know, as names that you could sell and put on posters and, and put on the back of jerseys that the casual fans might buy. So it's, I don't know, like, which of, which of these guys is the most interesting to you? And there's, you know, there's like the Jimmy Howard types. There's the Yarrow Halak.

There's Mark Andre Fleury, assuming he waives his no move clause this summer. I guess there's, like, the two Dallas guys, although they don't necessarily carry too much interest at this point, I feel like. I would love to see Vegas just do something totally off the board and, you know, get like NIEmi for some. And everybody's like, what do you do? Why are you doing this? I, you know, it's really interesting to me this whole expansion drafts because there are so many, like you said, there are like two or three camps of goaltenders. There's a lot of goalies on the market.

And there's, I think, a lot of uncertainty. There's no, like, there's no clear I've got to get this guy, regardless of the price because he's going to be exposed. If there was, I think the only one that if I were Vegas and I wanted to create some stability for my team, I would really push for Mark Andre Fleury. I just, I think that he's still got a ton left in the tank. You know, he's, yeah, I hate this, but he's a great locker room guy. He's a proven winner. I just say it.

He's a proven winner. You know, he really does. does, though, to me, he checks off a lot of those boxes. If you were trying to build a team and you wanted to kind of get some kind of internal identity, you're throwing it, you know, you're throwing together a bunch of guys who've, maybe some have played together, but they've never played together as one team. And, you know, you're going into camp, you do want somebody that is a name and a face, because you're going to have some guys in the lineup that, quite frankly, are HL players. You know, the league is, the league is thinner because of, you know, this expansion. And there are guys that are going to have second and third line roles that shouldn't be in those roles. And there are defensemen that maybe shouldn't be in an NHL lineup that are going to be in the NHL lineup for this team.

And I think Mark Andre Fleury is enough of a name recognition guy that he can kind of carry the face of the franchise to some extent. And I would like to see him get to be a starter for a little bit. it longer. So, you know, I have some kind of, you know, I don't know, I like, I like Mark Andre Fleury. I've always liked him. And, you know, I hope that he makes the decision to waive his, he's got a no movement, right? So, I think that's the guy. You know, if they don't, Halak is mildly intriguing. Here's my question for Flurry. And this is, I think, a very important one that we have to answer. If he's going to be the face of your franchise,

Do you want him bringing that weird soul patch he's had for years now to the team as the face of the franchise? Or are you asking him to get rid of that and go with a more conventional or clean-shaven approach? I don't know. I think you get by with the sole patch in Vegas. It's so weird. Like, it's, you know, there's some weird hairstyles. It's a three musketeers kind of. Yeah.

It kind of fits him. It kind of fits his face. Anyways. It's very French. This is like the weirdest thing that's ever been discussed in the pediocass. very unanalytical. Will the expansion draft affect Mark Andre Fleury's facial hair? Now that's a click-bake article if I ever seen it.

You know, Jimmy Howard's the other interesting guy because much like Flurry, he only has two years left, I believe, on his deal, and it's like, you know, somewhere in the five, so it's not unmanageable by any means. And it's one of those things where while both guys are in their early 30s, you know, with their only being two years left on that term, it's not like you're really running the risk of them just falling apart and being anchors on your books for years to come.

And kind of like Flurry, he's sort of, you know, the Red Wings didn't make the playoffs, but he showed while he was healthy this year that he's got a bit left in the tank. Like, he definitely... Yeah. He played much better this year. Yeah, I...

Well, you know, it's funny. Yeah, no, he, he like pretty significantly outplayed Petter and Marzic too, which I found very surprising, considering I was definitely on Marzic side of things and I still am moving forward but Howard did show that he could be an intriguing gamble and he's not like

the big name that Fleury is and has been but he's still like a guy who you can point to his track record and resume if that sort of the thing you're looking for and go well this guy's been around and he seems like a solid presence and we could do a lot worse than having him as a number one

moving forward with like a intriguing high upside young backup waiting in the wings maybe potentially even taking the job as as sometime mid-next season. I think so much with Howard depends on his health. And we've seen when he's not healthy, he's quite bad.

And when he is healthy and he's got his legs under him, he can be a capable goalie. Now the question is, you know, how far away is he from another injury? You know, that's a question. I'd love to be a fly on the wall, you know, for some of his practices

and kind of see how he moves in repetition. Because usually without talking to a goalie, if you're a goalie coach and you're watching how they move in certain repetition movements, you can get a sense of, okay, this guy's compensating for a bad groin, or this guy's making a decision based on he doesn't have as much push as he used to have. It's harder in a game where the movements are all kind of erratic and different for every shot and every movement. I think that if he's healthy and he has his legs under him,

there's not much of a, there's not much of a gamble in taking, you know, taking his contract on for a couple years, getting, you're probably, you know, without any new injuries,

you probably get at least one good season out of them. Maybe that gives you some time to survey the market again or, you know, possibly make a trade and get a young goaltender who's kind of, look in Winnipeg they're going to have a glut of goalies and I think Helibuck might end up being oddly the Doddman out because of his poor performance this year. So you never know. Those are guys that a year from now might be available for a trade or something like that. And now you've got

your veteran on a short-term contract setting you up for who you want to be in the future. So yeah, I think Howard might be a good fit for that. I still, I think Flurry is the superior goalie. You know, there, I mean, there's a, there's a whole kind of poo-poo platter of these other older goal. You mentioned Al Montoya, and every time I hear his name, that's, it's just like a sad trombone sound in the back of my head. Like those goalies that have, they have name recognition. Like people are like, oh, that's a, that's a decent backup goalie. He could be your caddy for a, no, just stop.

Yeah, yeah, like the. Anton Hudovans of the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. No thanks. Yes. So, you know, something that came up last week, it was this trade rumor that was,

or discussion that was floated around about, you know, Chicago potentially, potentially letting Vegas take Trevor Van Riemzdyke in the expansion draft, like leaving them unprotected. And then as long as Vegas also took on Marcus Krueger's contract in a trade, basically, and making it sort of like a two-for-one type of thing. And while I think, you know, that seems like a really silly trade for Vegas to make because I think Trevor Van Rames-Dyke isn't really an actual asset. Like, I think if you feel so inclined, just go dip into the AHA and take your pick of the litter and just get a guy for free. You don't need to also take on.

Yeah, Trevor Van Riemsdike is not giving you that much more than, you know, the number two or three defensemen in the HL. Yeah, you don't need to take on Marcus Krueger's contract to also just for just so you can have Trevor Rennem's like. that seems like a silly thing. And if that happens, well, then Stan Bowman continues his wizardry with getting, getting, other teams to help him alleviate some of his cap concerns. But I think it did get me thinking about potentially sort of similar mutually beneficial deals involving salary dumps with Vegas. And I want to run an idea by you.

So here's a hypothetical for you. Let's say, would you agree that people in the league still view Jonathan Quick as a legitimate asset that they would trade for. Here we go. I like this. So. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Okay.

So if he was unprotected, he would get claimed 100% by Vegas, you think? 1,000%, which is not a real thing. Okay. So what if you're the Kings, you contact Vegas and you say, we will keep Jonathan quick unprotected and let you claim him and be your starting goalie for the next well eternity basically because that's how long as contract runs still but you have to take on either Dustin Brown or Marion Gabrik's deal as well and if that's two owners we'll throw in some sort of Sweden or we'll throw in like a pick or a prospect or something and yeah you get

you get Jonathan quick but you also have to take on a shitload of money as well yes yeah yeah the artist formerly known as Dustin Brown yeah um so if okay so we would first the first the first question I think is would Vegas in their current management do that? And I would say yes, they will. They would do that in a heartbeat. Would I do it?

Yeah, I think I would. As which side? Both sides? As Vegas. As Vegas. Just as Vegas, I'll start with. The reason I think I would do it as Vegas is this. Jonathan Quick,

say whatever you want, and we went through this at the beginning of the year. I still think that Jonathan Quick is a top 10 to 15 goalie in the NHL when he's right and when he's healthy. Now, I don't think that he's going to be right or healthy very much more for the rest of his career, but I think he'll be right and healthy enough to help a team fill seats and be relatively competitive. He would be part of the solution more than part of the problem in terms of on-ice performance, even though he's, you know, like I said, he could spend some time injured and everything else. He'll put butts in the seats.

He'll definitely be your name recognition. If I'm running a franchise, I take, you know, there's value in all those things because I am trying to, you know, be a successful business and be successful on the ice as well. I think that the whole issue with taking on, you know, other kind of cap consideration, cap burdens is not such a huge deal because I might be trying to get to the cap floor. That's something, that's a very real concern for this expansion team because there aren't going to be a lot of the high earners that are exposed. So you're going to, you may run into some problems hitting the cap floor. Depending on where the cap goes, I think it's

going to stay around what it is. But regardless, I think you're going to have some trouble. So, you know, would it suck to take on that crazy Dustin Brown contract? Yeah, it would. And that would, it would be, you know, it would be like, I'm 60% on board, but 40% of me is just hating what that's going to look like, you know, a couple of years down the road. But I think I, I think I would. Throw in a pick, and I think I'm making the deal. If I'm, if I'm L.A., I'm also making the deal. Yes. Yeah, here we go.

So this is the sign of a very, very well-thought-out trade on my end then. Yeah. So if I'm L.A., I am also making the deal. Because we're done with that generation in that, you know, that team. And, you know, Quick is not part of the future. As much as he's been a part of our, the past.

He is in his 30s. He is, he has shown that, he is not healthy in key areas for his, for him to be able to perform. You know, his legs are, are given out a little bit. And he,

you know, his contract's not bad, really, it's not terrible. But that Dustin Brown contract or Gabbarick, I mean, get rid of those and, you know,

make some room for, you know, some free agents or, or something else that comes down the pike while you continue to, to, work your farm. I'm doing that all day. Yeah, I agree quick.

He's only, his cap, it's like $5.8 million, which definitely isn't egregious, and I agree with you that he's a perfectly fine goalie. The problem, as you also alluded to, he turns like 32 mid-season, and he has six more years on that deal. And the Dustin Brown contract, I mean, the Marion Gabbrick one,

surprisingly, is nearly as bad. It's a bit cheaper in one year. shorter so it makes it makes a Dustin Brown one really just kind of take the cake here but like the Dustin Brown one is crazy is absolute lunacy it was crazy when it when they when they did it no but it's it's it's mind-blowing because it's like one of those things where like right now heading into this next season you'd be like 5.9 million dollars for Dustin Brown that seems insane like he's not worth even half of that right now and then you're paying him that until 2022 yeah like that just Until they're not going to be able to get out of that.

Like the CB, they're not, they have no way of getting out of that. Through collective bargaining, through, you know, I was thinking like maybe down the road there's going to be some new provisions for retirement because I think teams are starting to get wise to the fact that, you know, players on these long contracts are hitting their mid-30s and they just, or early 30s, really, you know, 33, whatever, 32, 33. 3-34 and they just can't do it anymore. So maybe they'll get some kind of cap relief from having those contracts hanging around because I think there's enough teams interested in that for enough owners to say, hey, we got to do something about this because we can't build teams. All of us agree, you know, except for maybe a couple smart franchises.

But, I mean, holy hell, that Dustin Brown, I mean, that's brutal. And that quick one is going to be, you know, an albatross in two or three years for them. Not maybe not for Vegas. Well, for Vegas, they'll kind of go, whatever. Yes. And like the thing for the Kings is, I mean, listen, like you look at their current state and, you know, Dean Lombardi conveniently got out just in a nick of time and now it's not his concern anymore. But like, they have a lot of needs. and they have no real money to address those needs.

So they're basically just going to keep running back this team that we saw. As much as I love, you know, looking at shot attempts and stuff, like it's pretty clear that they're a flawed offensive team that cannot score enough goals. And they don't have the means to address that. And I don't understand how they're going to improve or fix that. And if you're able to get out from under a couple deals with one move like that,

like that seems like a no-brainer if you're running the Kings as well. So that's why I'd say, fascinating because I do think it kind of make sense for both sides assuming if you're babysitting you like quick it makes sense definitely then what's so funny to me too is I truly believe this I think that there

would be far more people that would criticize the Kings for giving up quick than there would be that would applaud them for moving contracts to make way for a new a new regime and a new a new look to the team and addressing other problems that they have.

Yeah, but those people don't understand how opportunity cost and how the hard cap works because that's basically... By the way, those people are like half of the hockey community. And some of them running in HL teams. But no, I mean, listen, if you got rid of Quick and Brown, that's like almost $12 million in cap space next year. Yeah. And you could get a free agent goalie.

Yeah. Then you bring in Steve Mason for like three-ish, and all of a sudden you have a new found. A Stanley Cup contender. And you have a new found $8 million to get creative and add a couple different scoring options. And all of a sudden, your team is much better. And it might not have the big names or, you know, you might rock the boat a little bit with people. But it's, I find it hard to believe that your team wouldn't be better if you went that route instead. Oh, I, I, 100% agree.

I think that that would be. I think everybody, it would be a shocking type of thing, but it would make so much sense from their side. And I, if I was on the Vegas side, too, I think I would, I'd say, yeah, we can do that. We can, we can do that right now. Because they're not going to be good for a while. And they need some other things cooking for them that, uh, they can keep people intrigued. So what about, what about this one then? Um, you know, it's, it's, it's sort of along the same lines, but it's,

I don't know, I can't tell if it makes more or less sense, but if you were Detroit and you contact George Murphy and you say, you know, we're going to protect Jimmy Howard instead. We're going to let you have Petter and Marzic, assuming that they like Petter and Marzic. I don't understand why they wouldn't just based on the age difference and the price and everything. But assuming that's the case, you guys can have Marazic, but you also have to take on. And this is where the fun starts if you're running the Red Wings, because there's like six different deals that you can point to as, as like, take it. your pick of them. I don't know. I think Jonathan Erickson's probably the worst because he's getting picked a lot and he's also really bad. You can make the argument that I'd get rid of the Danny

DeKaiser one too because it's more expensive and for longer, but at least you can make the argument that he's younger and teams probably think more highly of him and I don't know. But it like so Detroit as well should be one of these teams. Like it's a bit tougher pill to swallow because Maratic still is only like 25 years old so you could talk yourself into him being really good while you're when you're ready to compete again, but they're so far away and have so much money tying them down to these aging loyalty, Kenny Holland guys that they can't really improve anytime soon.

So, like, they should also be one of these teams that are exploring trying to get out from under these contracts while they still can. Yeah, and well, again, so if I were running the Red Wings, you know, I wouldn't give up on Petter Morazick. I think way too highly of him. Yeah, me too. Every goal tender goes through a rough spot where they need to make adjustments. And I think this year, he had some problems.

He finally hit a snag with some of his side-to-side movement where he was just, you know, he's getting caught a little bit too wild. And I don't know if, you know, I don't know if there was other things that were going on, but he did get kind of jerked around with the Jared Crowe nonsense. If I were in Detroit shoes, I wouldn't give up on Petter Morazic. because he is so young, and I think he is part of whatever comes next for them. But, boy, to get to whatever comes next, you've got to get rid of some of those contracts. So that's, you know, there is an appeal to that.

You know, can you find another young goalie that can be your goaltender of the future? Yeah, you probably can if you're smart about it. I don't think Petter Morazic is the be-all end-all. So I'd give it some serious consideration if I was in Detroit's shoes. Would Detroit actually do it? Actually, I think they might actually do something like that because I think that they think that Jared Corot is a legitimate NHL goaltender. So I could kind of see him doing something crazy like that.

Maybe it's not that crazy. I could kind of see him doing something like that, really. I could envision Kenny Holland being pitched this idea by some smart, lower-level guy in his front office and him being like, why would Vegas do that? Jimmy Howard's way better than better, Brassick. That's what I could see as well. Just dumbfounded? Yeah, I just can't believe that they would do something like, or saying something crazy.

Like, I don't know if we can let go of a guy like Danny DeKaiser. Yeah. You know, he's the heart and soul of this team. You know, so, boy, they've got some bad contracts. There's so many to choose from. Right now that Erickson one is just appalling. Erickson, that's appalling. it it somehow took just an applicator like half a season like it wasn't it was an albatross when he signed it

but at least he was having a productive season playing with the top guys obviously and he was in a great spot to succeed but you know if he kept putting up points and being productive you could sort of spin it as well he's still in his prime but like he fell off the map this year and got injured and everything happened that you'd expect what have happened within the next couple years but it was in a fast forward process, and then all of a sudden now his deal has just started. Is he going to be 30 next season? Is that right?

Yeah, he's been around for a while and he was playing in college. Like he's, I don't know, he's one of those guys where people are like, yeah, young Justin Advocator. It's like, he's 30. Part of my French, but holy shit. Yeah. That's a bad contract. But they have so many of these, like, listen,

anyone making less than like two million ultimately you can work your way around it but like look at why is luke lindening being paid that long i don't like yeah what like who four years from now you're like yep we can't we can't risk luke londening leaving us we got to we got to give him give him this term just to make sure he's comfy here it's so weird too to see that in detroit because so so so many of their years or past you know 20 some odd years it's been you've got your core players, whatever it is, right? These guys that you just, you know, they're homegrown, they're incredibly talented, they're going to carry your franchise for 10 years, okay?

You know, the Fedoraz and then the Isermans and the Lidsstroms and then, you know, the next generation with Datsuk and Zetterberg. And then you build everything else around it and you kind of, you find other homegrown guys that you can plug and play and, you know, you kind of just make it work with your with your filling guys. They started giving all those filling guys like big long contracts for no reason.

Like there's no reason for it. There's nothing that should have prompted that. It's so strange. Yeah. They're going to have a long, dark period. Yeah, it's going to, no, it's going to be really bad. I don't think it's going to reach 26 years or whatever of not making the playoffs, but it's going to...

But it could go like 10. It could be bad for, I mean, I know there's parody in the NHL and everything, but there are some teams down at the bottom that are getting much better right now, and they're not one of them. And it's going to be a little while before some of the teams at the top sink, you know, so they're going to be in some trouble. Well, especially since, like, you read some of these quotes, and it's always tough to say how much of it is sort of putting up a brave face and posturing in the media and trying to keep your fans optimistic. but it's like they definitely were giving off this vibe in their quotes that they're still in like that denial process of where they actually are as an organization where they were sort of spinning it like well a lot of unfortunate unlucky stuff happened this season but we're going to be right back next year and it's i hate to break it to them but uh it's going to get a lot worse here before it gets better

and that is how long that takes is purely dependent on how quickly it takes them how quickly it takes how quickly they can acknowledge what's really happening and act on it rather than just trying to get by from one year to next? I'm going to come full circle. I want them to train Morassick because I don't want his career to get consumed by the nonsense that's going to take place there for the next several years. You're just willing to sacrifice Jared Koro? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sorry, buddy.

But hey, look, Jared Corroo seems like a nice guy and everything. Perfect fit for whatever is going to be going down there for the next several years. Yeah. So, you know, we mentioned the kind of younger unproven guys, and there's two guys that really stick out. It's Eunice Corpusalo and Philip Grubauer. Do you have a preference in either one? and would you be willing to just ride with both of them next year if you're Vegas?

Yeah, so I would. I would be willing to ride with both. I actually think Corpusalo is ready to become an NHL starter. I think Corpusala is an excellent goaltender. He just needs to be given the leash to play like an HL starter and get to go through five bad games and not have everybody going, oh, my God, this guy can't do it, and just let him play. I really think he's a great goalie.

I'm very, very high on him. I think he could be an all-star caliber type of goaltender. Grubauer is your perfect backup. He's a consistent goaltender. He does. So earlier in the show, we were talking about Renee and how he's so spastic. Grubauer is the polar opposite of that. He's very under control.

He makes the first save. He doesn't create a lot of extra work for himself. He is not flashy at all. he is not super athletic he won't steal a lot of games for you but he doesn't kill himself and that's perfect for a backup that's what you want that's what you know

and really that's a guy where you could throw them in and have them start 40 games and you're going to get pretty good results so I like both those guys I think they'd be great choices for Vegas if Vegas wants to use some of their expansion

draft picks on goalies. Those two and maybe anti-Ranta, those are the types of goalies that I would go after. I think Ranta falls into that category as well. I would not go after in Noyverse. I know it's tempting because, you know, the contract's decent and everything. But, meh. Nah. I'm just not that high on Neuvers.

Well, this is why this entire process is going to be so exciting. from sort of like the armchair GMing perspective because there really is so many different avenues Vegas can go and whichever one they choose all of a sudden there's this domino effect in terms of what they can do with those cap resources if they go super cheap and net with some combination of Gruberra Ranta and Corpusallo

all of a sudden they could potentially take on these Dustin Brown type contracts with their skaters and get a bunch of picks or other prospects and you know it's the other part of the other parts Possibilities are endless, so it's going to be a pretty fun couple of weeks here to fantasy book this and then actually break it down once it finally does get announced. Yeah, if you're, you know, there's two ways to run this team. I happen to think that they're going to have to run the team where they do put a couple faces on the franchise early because it's just this weird unknown.

They're playing hockey in Las Vegas, you know, pro sports team in Las Vegas. And I don't know, you need some things kind of cooking for you in that regard early on. but you know the the the analytics guy in me and the you know the armchair GM that I am I would be preparing this team not for this year not for next year but maybe three or four years down the road and trying to do you know exactly what you said take on some bad contracts and get more draft picks there's going to be some good drafts coming up um not this coming year but um the season next season and season after that are starting to look pretty good. strong. So, you know, start to build your team that way. Boy, if you could, if you could snag

like a young goalie like Corpus Sally, he's 23, or I think he just turned 23, you might have your goalie of the future right there. And, you know, I don't know, maybe you take a, you know, a free agent goalie, or maybe you take a big contract off somebody's hands, do something like that and get some draft picks. They do have some options. People are kind of saying, well, they're going to be so bad by virtue of the fact that they have to select this team of players that nobody else is willing to protect. There are some ways to manage it to really set yourself up for success down the road. Yeah, definitely to get creative.

All right, let's put a pin in this discussion and get out of here and we'll just have you back on the show sometime here in the next couple weeks. weeks and we'll we'll pick it up that i had this uh you know out of left field half-baked idea that i'd been mulling over in my head about uh increasing the uh the crease and and treating it like like the key like the key in basketball and and all this you know funky stuff that i'm sure that uh hockey purists will hate but uh we'll uh we'll pick it back we'll pick it back up and we'll get kind of weird this was a fun man i really enjoy this it was uh it's always fun having you on the show it's it's much more of a sort of casual back and forth. We're having a beer and chatting about hockey as two best buds sort of conversation

rather than a formal interview. Yeah, I like it. I like it. And look, next time I'm on the show, we can talk at length about how Steve Mason is going to take the Calgary Flames to the Promised Land. Okay. Yeah, you know, him and his agent were listening to this entire show and they're like, oh, this will be good, just rubbing their hands together.

And then all of a sudden, they're like, what the hell? We've got to download it and listen for an hour of this gibberish for nothing? Look, I will come prepared. I'll have stats and grass and charts, Venn diagrams, all of the pie charts, everything showing how Steve Mason is going to take the Calgary Flames to the Promised Land as soon as next season. Take the Calgary Flames to the Promised Land and the World by Storm.

Do you want to plug some stuff? What are you up to these days? I am not up to a lot. No, I'm looking forward to this, once the Stanley Cup finals finish, I'm actually going to do some writing. I mean it this time. I've got a bunch of stuff queued up for hockey graphs. It's going to be some statistical analysis stuff.

We've got a little bit of a void here because Corsica is down right now. Yeah, rest of peace. Well, it's not dead. It's on hiatus. On hiatus and in redevelopment or whatever Manny decides to do next. which is fine, but we have Micah's, Micah Blake McCurdy's website, which is a great resource as well. And I'm hoping to work with him.

He just did some stuff on goalies that I thought was really interesting. So I want to work with him on some of that and picking his brain on some of my ideas and then come out with some new writing for hockey grass. You can find all my other musings and nonsense on Twitter, of course, at, you. and Mercad. And I'm super excited about this offseason. There's going to be a lot to talk about. So it'll be a good time.

I'm going to be at home a lot because I'm about to have a child. So I'm going to be, you know, holding my child with one hand. And Steve Mason with the other? And Steve Mason on the keyboard with the other. I will be writing about him. Have you told Steve that he's getting a new younger brother? Yeah, I don't know. He's been an only child for so long.

I hope he doesn't get jealous. I hope so, too. All right, man. Well, I appreciate you taking the time, and good luck with everything, and we'll chat soon. All right, thanks, DemetioCast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovic

and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockeypedocast.