The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 178: Loaded with D

Episode Date: June 22, 2017

Craig Custance joins the show to discuss the Jordan Eberle trade (2:19), the awards show and transparency in the voting process (12:57), George McPhee's approach in the expansion draft and the return Vegas came away from it with (20:01), and what type of rebuild we should expect to see from the Red Wings (38:03).  Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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Our guest is a PDO cast Mount Rushmore resident, and I believe this is one of his first public appearances since rising up from the ashes and coming back bigger and better than ever as the head boss of the athletics Detroit branch. It's Craig Custons. Craig, what's going on, man? Nothing. I like how you described that.

That was out of the ashes. Yeah, well, you were gone there for a while, and honestly, it was during the Stanley Cup final, and I felt like I really missed your insight on it, because you always provide these interesting little behind-the-scenes nuggets that I feel like other people aren't even really thinking about. So I, for one, I can't speak for anyone else, but I definitely miss your perspective on that series.

Well, I appreciate that. It was really weird not covering the Stanley Cup final as a hockey writer and someone who's done it for the final for 10 years. It was just how it was a really weird, you know, my contract ended, and it was just the transition to the athletic. It was when it fell, and we had to keep it under wraps, and it was just a strange timing of all. So, yeah, it was probably, you know,

it was weird not being there and, you know, not weighing in and stuff. Well, at least it worked out that, you know, you're in the saddle now and you're ready to go for all of the entry draft and the expansion draft and free agency. I feel like this is definitely the best time of the year. Yeah, no, it's been an exciting week, and that was part of the plan. We launched the Athletic Detroit this week on Monday, and there was kind of some internal debate on when to do it,

and I said, look, there's just so much going on with the expansion. And, like, I hated not even being a part of the protected list. Like, I wanted to dive into some of that the week before. But, you know, with the draft and the trades that are going on as we speak, I just waited long enough. It was good to be back at it. Okay, so I had initially planned, For us to talk about the awards and the expansion draft, but as you mentioned, the trades, we're recording this on a Thursday, early afternoon, and the Jordan Iberle news just dropped like 10 minutes ago.

And I feel like we should get that out of the way out, because otherwise we're going to be talking about the expansion draft and stuff, and I'm just going to be thinking about the trade and how I feel about it the entire time. And that might impact the quality of the discussion. So let's get that out of the way, and then we can move on other things. Let's do it. All right. So I think this is a fascinating trade because from the Islanders perspective, it makes a ton of sense, right? Like, you know, they have this massive John Tavares free agency looming. And I think the report came out from Arthur Staple this past week that, you know, Tiberis is perfectly comfortable waiting it out this year and seeing where it goes and then deciding later on rather than locking himself up right now to a new deal, which I'm sure is, you know, providing a lot of consternation and.

concern for Islanders fans and Islanders management, but, you know, they went out here. They have a pretty clear mandate to try and improve their team and get him better players to play with. And you look at sort of the list of the wingers that he spent time with at 5-1-5 last year. And it's a, it's a remarkable list of who's who. The guys like Calcutterbuck and Nicolai Kulam and, and, you know, obviously he played with Anders Lee and Josh Bailey and guys like that. But it was just they couldn't really seem to find a long-term fit there after Kyle Okpozo left and pre-agency, and Eberley seems like a pretty logical guy to step in there and help kind of receive some of those passes from them and convert them into goals.

I agree completely. I think for the Islanders, it's a great addition. And for all the reasons you said, and I don't think you can overstate the importance of a move like that and keeping John Taviris around, because it's true. He's in complete wait and sea mode. And, you know, maybe it's a debate for another day. but if I'm the islanders, I don't want that. Like, I don't want him stringing this out into the season

because if you're forced to trade him at some point, his trade value is, like, dropping by the day just because teams are getting less of them. And so I think, you know, maybe you don't want to do moves based on satisfying or placating players typically, but anything you can do to keep John Tavares happy should be done. And I think this is, I love this too, for the islanders. Yeah, I mean, we'll play.

getting a superstar can be done two ways. One can be like, oh, we're going to acquire this guy because he's friends with him, but the guy might not actually be that good at hockey. And then there's, well, we can sort of satisfy them by also winning some games and improving our team. And it seems like Eberle's the best of both worlds in that regard here. Well, right, because, you know, you've heard that with some of the other players that sign long term, maybe some of the death guys on the Islanders that, you know,

they're close with Tavares. And that was kind of a case to keep them around. But you're right. John Tavares is a guy that wants to win a Stanley Cup. He doesn't want to, you know, he's in that, he has that same mentality as Caves and Copatar and Crosby, and he's 26 years old or whatever he is now, in his prime years,

not even coming close to having that kind of success. He's cut from that same exact cloth, and you're right, it's less about who he liked and more about, let's put together a team that he can be convinced can win something big. Yeah, you know, it's funny. Every time I think that, you know, we, and we are definitely ahead of where we were

a few years ago in terms of our understanding of kind of what matters and what doesn't, how to dissect numbers and kind of look at predictability and stuff. But we always kind of bump into this thing where, you know, a guy has a massive either shooting percentage spike or a shooting percentage dip. And then you really see that maybe we're not as far ahead as we think we are when people start making kind of excuses for what's going on. And with Eberle, he, you know, he dips from like a 14% of 15% career shooter, basically down to like nine last season and scores obviously fewer goals as a result.

And all of a sudden, you start hearing this stuff about how he doesn't practice hard enough and how he might not be fully invested in how he's not working hard enough and all this kind of side stuff, whereas I'm sure that if he gets a few more bounces there and scores his customary 25 goals, which he probably will do again next year, like none of that stuff really gets aired out or matters and it's just funny how that works yeah it's funny so i'm with you i i hear a lot of the the other side of two and and you know i'm it's so hard to um figure out how much of that you factor into your decision making because i i don't think you can just say build a team around you know the numbers and i think you have to factor all

that into consideration. And I don't know what's being said about Everly or what's true or not true. But I do think, I mean, it happens all the time where teams sour on a guy and they don't, they feel in some way he's running counter to the culture they're trying to build. And they get less value for them and fans, you know, sometimes it's leaked out or whatever. Sometimes it's not, but I mean, that stuff exists. Wait, are you talking? think you have to, I think, I think you have to factor into the equation.

Like I do, like, I'm not willing to just say, let's, let's just punch, you know, put the best numbers into a roster. Like, I think that stuff is important at some level. I think it's overvalued. You're saying, you're saying the game is played on the ice and not on the spreadsheets. You have to be true. No. No, I'm messing with you.

And, you know, while you were talking about that, I wasn't sure if you were still talking about, Billy or a particular goalie in your neck of the woods. Well, maybe that's fresh of my mind. And there's a couple other cases of that right now. And when you're talking to people in the trademark, and you're like, oh, this guy's available. And they're like, yeah, but he's available because of X, Y, and Z. You know, stuff that sometimes gets out sometimes doesn't.

And it's just, it is a reality that managers have to deal with. And sometimes, you know, guys, like I'm with, you know, I'm more on your side than the other side, but I do think it's, there's a, it has to be part of the equation. And it's a reality of the situation. There is definitely an equation there. And I think that, you know, it'd be silly to overlook the fact that there is some level of human element involved where I'm sure that, you know, it's easy to, like, I've talked about this with Mike Johnson, for example, and other players where, like, it's easy to just say, oh, just wait for the goals to start coming. but I'm sure that it kind of affects other parts of your game or, you know, how, you know, certain off-ice things, the way you're approaching it, if, you know, things aren't going well. It's not as easy.

It's just, you know, hoping that the shooting percentage eventually evens out. Sometimes it can affect other things. The reason why we care about it is because, you know, generally speaking, that shooting percentage tends to even out over time. And Eberle has kind of shown himself to be an above-average finisher. And I find it hard to believe at this stage of his career that he all of a sudden forgot how to score goals. So it just seems like, you know, I understand from Edmonton's perspective why they'd be concerned. But for the Oilers, it seems like a really good by-low where I would probably, I'd feel pretty comfortable betting on him kind of going, reverting back to his career norms and being a very productive player for them next season. Yeah, I think so.

And, you know, ultimately, I agree with you. He was a great by-low candidate. It's a smart move by them. You're solving a lot of problems we talked about. Well, it seems like, yeah. So from Garcinot's perspective in the Islanders, they sort of jumped the opportunity here to improve their team. And it makes a ton of sense. I think it's probably more interesting discussion from Edmonton's perspective because, you know,

there's the concerns about Everly's play and how his offense dried up last season. But it seems like more of this probably has to do with the fact that they were concerned about clearing up money to pay McDavid and Dry Seidel this summer. Yeah. Yeah. And that's all part of the equation. Like, when you're evaluating trades, you have to factor in the price, you know, the price tag in terms of the cap hit. And like, you know, to go back to the Taylor Hall trade, like the big appeal to a lot of teams with Adam Morrison was the contract he was signed under. And that's when you're weighing a player's value, it's a nice value.

And it's also, okay, is his number maybe, are we getting a break in terms of, you know, his market value? And so now, you know, I think I really was, you know, the oilers were paying a premium for him. Like he got that big contract right away. Like there's not, you know, and now in Strong, you've got a player who's at, what, two and a half million and 23 years old. I mean, that's all part of the equation. Yeah, I agree with that. It's interesting because it's going to be funny to see how, you know,

the how the storytelling plays out next season because it's quite possible that assuming Camtalbot holds up and has another really good season like you know guys like mac david and dry saddle will improve and uh you know jesse pulli rby for example might come into the lineup and and produce as a top pick for them and all of a sudden they could conceivably get even better but you know i don't know did you did you come across this this season where it felt like uh you know certain segments of the media were unwilling to just admit that McDavid's just pure dominance was a big reason for I mentioned success. It seemed like there was all this, you know, side stuff going on about, you know, moose Shirelli made or certain culture or stuff that was going on, which I'm sure played a whole. But at the end of the day, without McDavid, none of it was really possible. Right. Well, sure. You know what I think part of that is?

Like, you're, if you're grinding up the beat and you're carving the team every day and, like, you can't, can't write cona mac david is often every single day right so some days you're like boy i you know let's try to let's you know it's the day to write the defenseman story or whatever he's having you know or the culture story and like i you know i think if you got anybody in edmond's what's the biggest reason for the oil or success they're going to say connoct david i would i mean we've seen what that team looks with without him it's it's dramatically different but um i like i but you know I'm not going to criticize people for writing other stuff just because I know sometimes you just

you know you gotta write stuff Yeah You know what I mean? Yeah Yeah, it's part of the job I get it I get it Okay, so you're in Chicago right now preparing for the entry draft

So you're not actually in Vegas for Last night's festivities But I wanted to talk quickly about the award show Just to you know Cover our bases I thought you know The actual awards themselves were pretty on point

I didn't have any complaints with them. I thought that Connor McDavid was pretty clearly the best player in the league last season. And it was cool from that, you know, from that storyline-telling perspective that I was just talking about, seeing him receive that award from Wayne Gretzky. I thought that was pretty neat. And, you know, I thought Eric Gawson was still the best defenseman in the world last year and doesn't really have any of the show for it. But Burns was a good enough alternative and was, you know, productive enough himself

that I'm willing to, you know, just acknowledge that it's a perfectly fine choice. and you go on down the line, like, Matthews was the best rookie, Patrice Bergeron was the best defensive forward, Bobrovsky was both the best goalie and the best coach in the NHL last year, so I don't have any issue with him winning both of those awards. Right. No, I agree with you. It's funny because I was asked,

the radio hit yesterday morning, or the morning of the awards show, and they asked who I voted for Norris. And I thought I'd voted for Charleston. I'm like, oh, I was there. And I think part of that was just because I'd come. covered a lot of the Ottawa run, saw how great he was, and that was, like, still fresh in my mind. And I'm like, oh, yeah, he was the best of the league.

Then I'm like, well, hold on. Let me pull up my ballot. And I'm like, nope, I had Red Burns. And it just seemed like so long because we vote after the regular season's over with. But I'm, like, you know, if I'm, I think, I think there's a great Carlson case to be made, obviously. But, you know, I voted for Burns one, Carlson two. And then I had Carlson two on my heart trophy after Connor McDavid. So two bridesmaid votes for Carlson on my ballot.

Well, and I imagine that's why this of voting happens after the regular season and not after the playoffs. Obviously, it's a regular season award, but if it was after the playoffs, I'm sure there'd be a lot of that kind of recency bias involved where it'd be tough to separate what you just saw in the postseason and you might overvalue it compared to what happened in the first 82 games of the season. I have a theory, and a working theory that I haven't played out, but Brent Burns, this Norse Trophy win kind of supports it. I think the playoffs, the defensemen get that bump the following year. Like the Drew Dowdy, Norris, buzz really started when people saw those long runs. You know, you're covering the playoffs every single day out in L.A. You see Drew Dowdy. And I think, like, that exposure, you get the benefit.

And I think, I mean, Burns had a great year, but I think a big part of the appreciation for Brett Burns came from a lot of people seeing them in the playoffs when the Sharks went to the Stanley Cup final. and I think that helped his case. And I think Victor Hedman, again, he was number three on my ballot for Norris. And I think a couple of the lightnings, long runs, and I can just say personally, like, you know, I know Victor Hedman's a good player covering him in the playoffs, you just get a greater appreciation for him. And you're watching on a daily basis.

You're seeing the impact on the team. And you're seeing, you know, it's huge, just how great a skate area is and how he can make up a lot of ground and how aggressive he was up and down the ice. And so like I I do think there's You know the playoffs impact the vote But I think it's the following here

Yeah Well so here's my one beef with NHL Awards And I'm curious for your perspective I'm not sure if I've talked about this on this on this podcast with you Or maybe You know Behind the scenes but I think I think all these votes

And this will eventually happen But I think they do need to be made public Just for the purposes of maintaining accountability And making sure the people entrusted with the votes Are taking it seriously because while I think everyone got it right, seeing the actual individual breakdown of the awards is always, I think, the best part

to me, and it's like, you know, T.J. O'S. It's not been worse. When you're saying they're, like, cringing, when you're like, oh, my gosh, this guy got a vote, a fifth-place vote, you know. So, I mean, you know, five, I guess only two people, but they didn't have Eric Carlson, their top five on the Norris ballot.

And then T.J. O'She received two first-place votes for the Selke, and I love T.J. O'Shee, and he scored a lot of goals last year, but I don't understand how one person could think he was the best defensive before in the league last year, but two was like, okay. She was like, what the heck?

Someone turned in two ballots, maybe? Or like these two people just like, like, asked each other, who are you voting for? T.J. Oshy, oh, that sounds like a good pick. I'll just go with that myself. But like, listen, I'm all for differences in opinion and approaching things from a different perspective and that's how we learn and grow.

But at the same time, like, you need to be able to present a coherent defense or argument for why you believe that rather than just kind of closing your eyes and throwing a dart at the board. And I'd be fascinated to hear that. And, you know, a lot of people have transitioned with, like, the social media age, so actually publishing their ballots. And that's great. And it leads to interesting discussions.

And I wish everyone just had to do that because it would, I think, provide a lot more transparency and accountability to the entire process. Well, I can tell you, and again, this is probably, you know, inside baseball. But, I mean, that debate has been had pretty strongly a number of times amongst the writers and the league in terms of just putting every single ballot out. out there after the awards. And it's a pretty interesting split. Like there's a lot.

I'm in the complete transparency camp and I know other sports do it. And I'm like, look, you know, we're voting and we should stand by our votes. And I, you know, I've always published. I'm always happy to read right down who I voted for. But there's other writers that are, for various reasons aren't comfortable doing that. And it's easier for me to say, you know, kind of from a national perspective, most of my career where you know I'm not covering guys

on a day-to-day basis I think there's some beat writers like if you know probably few would feel pressure to vote for a person in the market or not vote for a person in the market and doesn't necessarily want you know the team and the fan base to know whether or not they did you know what I'm saying so like like so there's some concern on that front and boy I it's a debate we've had a number of times

and even put it to a vote and you know we've had basically the conclusion is we strongly encourage as the organization, we strongly encourage writers to share their complete balance. And if you remember that one year, we were like, to the point we're like, all right, everyone

post them, and then so many people did, it was like, oh, we're actually giving away the boat, like people started doing the map and figuring out who was going to win awards two years ago. So now it's like, you know, after the awards, get your ballot out there. And, you know, I think most writers are willing to do that.

Yeah. No, I buy that. I think it's going to eventually happen, you know, with everyone. But other than that, I thought that the awards got it pretty right this time. Listen, I'm all for complaining about stuff and being snarky about it, but I think that most of the award winners were the correct ones. So there's not too much to discuss about it, which means that we can shift our sites to the expansion draft now.

And we discussed the Eberley trade. I think there's going to be a few more. You know, as we were recording, the Canadians acquired David Schlemko for a pick. and I thought that's a really strong move for them. And we're going to see more stuff like that that's going to kind of shed some light on why Vegas might have taken particular players. So, you know, that's part of what makes evaluating the job George McPhee did and what Vegas will look like next year really tough because there are still so many moving parts.

But with that said, I don't know, what was your takeaway? Or do you think that Vegas sort of had a plan and executed it? And do you think that was the right plan? Like, like, what are your feelings about? where that franchise is looking right now and where they're headed after what we saw last night. I agreed with their approach in kind of passing on building the best possible team in order to collect young players and draft picks. And like you said, I don't think we're done seeing what the complete picture looks like.

So I don't think we can judge George McPhee until we know all those moves. Because I think just some of these guys are going to be traded. But I will say this. And we tend to hype things up and build things up. I was surprised. I thought that I was surprised by the prices that they were more reasonable than what we were hearing, right, in order to kind of not touch players or, you know, I would talk to people kind of going into it and like, oh, George McPhee is, it's outrageous and you're going to see some crazy stuff. And I thought it was fairly reasonable. I guess I was it's not an knock of George McPhee but like I you know I thought maybe we'd see bigger prices paid to lay off players well here's what I thought was the most sort of enlightening part to come from the draft and I imagine that you know before George McPhee made all of those picks he had had discussions around the league with various GMs about you know what they what they might be interested themselves or what they might be willing to pay for certain players they can claim because it seems pretty clear that they're not necessarily worried to

about filling out next year's roster as much as they are acquiring future assets. And, you know, there was two schools of thought before the expansion draft with all these mock drafts. And one of them, which I initially thought was the way to go, was just loading up on as many goalies as possible and sort of cornering that market this summer and, you know, selling from a position of strength and trying to recoup value that way. But then I started thinking about, you know, where the league's headed and what we've seen with recent trends at trade deadlines and in the past few summers. And it seems like, you know,

goalie stock is definitely dropping, whereas defensemen are in hot commodities. And I think we saw that with them, you know, they took 13 defensemen and only three goalies. Yeah. It's pretty clear that, you know, they've already traded Schlemco. And I imagine a few of those other guys,

like a Mark Method and stuff, will probably get moved. And I imagine that was the major driving force, just what the credit market dictates for those players and what they retain in trade purposes. Yeah. I, you know, I agree. with everything you said.

And the goalie thing is interesting because, yeah, it was like, just take as many as you need and start dispersing them. And, you know, I talked to somebody that, I talked to a team that is kind of in the goalie market and kind of pitched that idea. And they were being told pretty clearly from George McPhee if they didn't have a deal done going into this, they weren't going to take a goalie in hopes of trading them later, basically because you don't want to get stuck with five goalies, right, or whatever it would have, you know.

So that deal had to be in place. early and you know obviously it didn't happen and I you know but when you talk to teams this time of year I don't know a team that doesn't isn't saying we need to add a defenseman that like that's always a need um you know no matter when you know the trade deadline or or now and I mean yeah I'm looking at this roster not I mean they're loaded with D and in the beauty of it is all of them except for Motha come off the books after the season so these are all just short-term fix for some teams or Vegas, but most likely some teams to acquire. At the same time, I wonder, like, you know,

they've obviously prioritized that position. It was, I thought the one strange part about their draft was how they seem to prioritize a certain type of, you know, safe defensive defenseman type of player. And maybe that's just because they thought those guys might be more movable to teams around the deadline or right now they're trying to load up on their, on their, on their line but it's like you know they weren't incentivized to take guys like derrick england and lucas biza and alexie emmeline and i think that it's interesting because there were so many defensemen available um but it was pretty clear that you know up front they were going to be very weak and i

thought they could have taken some more calculated home run swings with you know from montreal a guy like charles hoodon or something or from calgary maybe even a hunter's incorrect just taking some guys that have been sort of stuck at the AHL level that could potentially with a bigger role produce for them and really kind of spread their wings and they seem more willing to just take these sort of safe picks and maybe try to get like depth of draft picks for them instead rather than trying to to build from within with them. I mean, I know, I mean, the Vegas staff was scouting hard, right? And my sense would be they came to conclusion some of those players you mentioned and just

that, you know, that upside it probably isn't there. And, you know, you're right. I think, you know, the kind of defensemen they took are kind of the guys that we always see it moved at the deadline and kind of the safe depth defenseman. And ultimately, they found that to be more valuable. I thought, you know, it was kind of focused on it,

but I thought their decision, you know, the Detroit players, it fit more of what you were saying in terms of the player they took versus a guy that make the move maybe in Mrazik or Shea and they actually went for the HL guy who they probably thought they could get more out of them. So they do it a little bit, but not as much as

you know I would have thought they might have. Yeah, the tough thing with the entire process was you know, there was obviously a lot going on behind the scenes that we weren't necessarily privy to right away and then even as it got reported it was just so tough to wrap your head around and I think it was this sort of catch-22 that was going on with teams like the

like the Ducks in the Wild where Right. You know, at first it was easy to just say, well, listen, it's a bit of an old boys club, and it seems like George McPhee might be doing, you know, his peers a little bit of a favor and taking it easy on him by not, you know, settling on not taking guys like Josh Manson or Matt Dunbar or a few others. But then you kind of come to the conclusion that there was this sort of middle ground that needed to be struck with a mutually beneficial agreement because if there wasn't,

then those teams could have easily sort of preemptively gone the other way and just traded them away even if it was for 50 to 75 cents in a dollar and then left Vegas with nothing to really pick from. So it wasn't necessarily... It's an important observation to make because I think people just looked at the list that was presented on Sunday and said, whoa, they can put together this good team. And it's like, no, these guys wouldn't have been on that list

if these middle ground deals have been struck. So I think it's an important distinction to make that. people aren't making. Yeah, and I think that from both of those teams, it seems like they extracted a decent amount of value. I think, you know, like, especially with Shay Theodore, I thought that was a savvy move from them. I'm not, I guess it depends on how you feel about the prospect they got

from Minnesota with Eric Halle. So that would sort of skew your opinion on it. But I don't know, do you think that they extracted enough value from those two teams just given the brand name value of the players that they agreed not to take? Yeah, the Minnesota one, I thought they got, I thought, I liked what Chuck Flutcher did there. Just because, like, what's, so now, now he can still trade one of those defensemen if that's what he wants to do in the next couple days. And that certainly seems to be the case. And, you know, I think they're going to get more than what they gave up.

But I guess, you know, to your point, it depends on what you think of the players. But I think the value for the defensemen that they were able to protect will be. more. You know, I think that that ledger is going to be in the wild favor. Well, if you look at, I was, you know, as a thought exercise, I was looking for the past few years of, you know, guys that would fit this bill of being like under 25 defensemen that were already, you know, relevant top four contributors to their teams and sort of how often they get traded and what they get traded for.

And the list is very short. I mean, over the past years, there's been like four or five guys that have been moved. then they're all moved for premium assets, whether they're one-for-one really good players like the Adam Larson Taylor-Hallswap or whether they're a guy like Eric Good Branson or something for a former first and Jared McCann and two picks. And you see a lot of moves like that.

So I'm sure that the wild will be able to recoup a pretty nice value for any of those guys, assuming that's the route they decide to go. Right. And I agree. But like, so, you know, when you look at Dunbar, I think he's got the pedigree, number seven overall, young still 22 if they do trade them they're going to get a nice piece and and so we say well then maybe you know that Vegas should have gotten given up more but like you said earlier that then they just trade double before

the expansion draft he wouldn't you know so there's it'll be like it'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out at the end well yeah I mean from Minnesota's perspective uh obviously the season didn't end the way they hoped but you know the regular season was a smashing success for them and there's no reason to believe that you know the percentages might come down a bit and they might not win as many games, but there'll be back to a playoff team and potential contender status next season. And for the longest time, we were looking at the future outlook with this expansion draft, and it seemed pretty clear that they were going to lose one key contributor.

And they didn't really, like I like Eric Hala. He's fine. I know. But he's sort of like a bottom six expendable type for them, given their depth. And they really sort of kept their team together, which I thought, as you mentioned, with a job, Chuck Fletcher did. I thought that was, he was one of the big winners coming out of this thing. I agree.

He may be the biggest winner, just because there's been an assumption now for a year, they were going to lose a really good player. And Chuck even would say that. You talked to me. He's like, look, we're not going to do anything to crazy preemptive. If we have to lose a good player, we'll lose a good player. And I thought he handled it really well because they didn't. You know, whenever we look and sort of forecast a team's depth chart or, you know,

how they might allocate the resources moving forward and then whether there might be a log jam. You sort of like it's like blood in the water mentality where your teams just or or I guess, you know, fans just start circling around them and trying to make these, uh, you know, fantasy book these trades that'll, you know, help their own team way more than they'll help the other team. And with Minnesota, there was a lot of this like, oh, I don't know, Jason Zucker, you know, he's, uh, he's a Las Vegas native. He sure look good on the golden nights.

And then it's like, oh, well, they have a log jam. Maybe they can't afford need no need a rider and we can just get him for 50 cents in a dollar. and that still might happen. But, you know, it seems like Chuck Fletcher in the wild are, you know, operating with the right mentality here where it's like, we're in a good position and there's no reason to panic. Let's just kind of let things come to us and see where it goes.

Yeah. They're in a great position because they're the ones holding the piece that everybody wants in young defensemen that are back in play. And so then it becomes a debate. Like, are you comfortable running back that same Minnesota wild team in Trude Tuncher

and you know why now that you don't have to make a move is that even something you still want to do and I don't know like as good as they were during the regular season I'm not sure I like I think he does need to shake it up so I still think there's some pressure on him

to make a move. Yeah I'm sure there'll be players here in the next few days and then the other sort of big big transactions we saw where the Blue Jackets and Islanders essentially made the same type of deal with Vegas where it was a first and a future second for taking a bad contract and a specific player from them.

Yeah. What do you think about those? Because it seemed like there were pretty hefty prices to pay, but at the same time for both teams, especially with Islanders now, you know, we'll see how they use that cap space. The Jordan Everly thing is a good start and they're heavily rumored in the Matt Duchenne sweepstakes, for example. And if they get him, would that be a home run? I think that that was a pretty interesting sort of.

mutually beneficial deal where Vegas gets two nice picks and kind of fills that money that they weren't really going to use anyways this coming for years. And other teams who are in more win now mode, free up money to go big and swing for the fences with certain players. Yeah, I think if you look at Vegas now, three first round picks, three second round picks going into the draft this year. And I mean, that's, you know, they did well. I thought maybe they'd end up with even four or five first rounders,

but I like those deals for both of them, because Columbus is the other kind of hot-button one, which is always Minnesota Wilde and Columbus, and Blue Jackets are going to lose a really good player, that they were able to not necessarily lose one of the kind of the guys that they were concerned with and get rid of a major contract. I think that was pretty nice for them. Yeah, no, I agree with that.

It made sense. the one sort of big move that didn't make sense to me and I guess if you just want to purely call it a money crunch and they got a mandate from ownership that they tried to shed salary then I guess it makes some sense but the panther is kind of getting up two key contributors I feel like there's more going on here behind the scenes than just a financial decision going on

yeah now I can't I haven't dove into this so I can't I don't want to say it with any but it does it seems like there's some like I'm doing going on there and and I agree I didn't I wasn't crazy about Florida's moves that we're doing winners and losers from the expansion draft like I I didn't like what Florida necessarily did there but I'm trying I'm trying to wrap my head around in the gap. Well, the thing is, there's definitely, you know, at least from the outside, some undoing going on and they're basically trying to run it back and have the team that they had two years ago. But it's like, I think if you look at all the moves they made last summer, and you just look at them one by one, like, it's tough to argue that any of them were bad,

and most of them were, you know, pretty no-brainer for them. So, like, obviously the year didn't go the way they wanted, and there's a lot of things that went into that and, you know, injuries and poor luck and certain things not going their way, but it just seems like a bizarre situation therein, and I feel like this is just sort of the start. Like, I feel like there's more where this came from. Well, I mean, we'll see. But, yeah, it's, I just want, like, to me,

you think about all the moves that were made last year. You're right, I thought their off-season was good. You know, the Yandle deal maybe is going to, we'll look back and maybe not too favorably on that one ultimately, but that's the price you paid a pre-agency to play ball. I just thought the handling of the coach, that was the biggest issue I thought. Right.

The previous, you know, I just, you know, who knows how that season ends if you just, if you keep the coach in play, it just seemed to turn things upside down unnecessarily. So do you think that the Yandel deal and how it's looked so far and maybe how it's perceived around the league is going to affect what happens with Kevin Shattaker at this summer,

or do you think that he's going to basically get sort of a blank check and just do whatever you want from one team at least? You know, all it takes is one team, right? So maybe some other teams are more conservative because, I mean, you remember we had that one summer where the GMs were like very reasonable. It was like three years ago

and nobody was getting crazy deals. The term was short and you're like, okay, everybody's learned about free agency. You know, if they're getting, you know, people are smartening up that. that's probably not the best use of funds. And then, like last year, there was some crazy deals. Like, you know, you look at the Andrew Ladd contract and Bacchus,

and you're like, boy, they're going to be bad fairly quickly. And just because there's pressure to improve your team, and that's one way to do it. And I think Kevin Chatton Kirk, I don't think he's going to be impacted by Handel at all. I think he's going to get a pretty good number because all takes his one team that needs him, and he's a unique talent. Yeah, with that one team, be, you know, one that's shed some salary on the blue line

the past couple weeks and might be a big market that has some ties to him? Yeah, I think, I mean, you know, not to, I think the Rangers are a nice bit. You know, I know they actually had some conversations with Vegas because, you know, Vegas can spend some money and during that window and ultimately nothing was done there. But, you know, I don't want to assume anything's done because a player gets this far into free agency. I think they always want to listen to everything. And I know there was some speculation that he turned down that deal with Tampa when there was a trade back then.

But I think that's, you know, another interesting possibility there for a team that shedding. So, yeah, I think there's a couple good options for him. Yeah, yeah, he's going to be a hot commodity. Okay, before I let you go, I'd be remiss if I'd be remiss if I'd. I didn't have you talk a little bit about what's going on in Detroit with the Petter and Razick situation while I have you here because it's something that's, you know, garnered a lot of attention around the league and definitely raised some eyebrows. How much of this is actually concerns about Petter and Marzic and how much of it is valid that, you know, the speculation that a guy like Jared Coro, for example, has superseded him on their organizational depth chart. I think this, I mean, he had, Peter Morazik was bad this year. There's no, he wasn't good.

We actually did a couple of stories in the athletic. One was kind of an odd-nice breakdown on how Jimmy Howard made some adjustments, played a little deeper in that. And Peter Morazik was still his really aggressive self, kind of relying too much on his athleticism to make saves. Just, it kind of probably needs to moderate. his game a little bit, right? And he had a rough year. So I think that, like, sometimes you don't have to overthink it, but, like, I think it was his reaction to how it went things,

went sideways. There was some frustration that he didn't want to dig in and do the work. Maybe. So there was, you factor that in. I know there was some, you know, this was, yeah, he was an arbitration case or nearly an arbitration case, and that kind of, that contract negotiation went down to the wire. and there was all these things sort of add up

and I don't know where he's been passed on the depth chart but I think the one thing you can say is we got a really good idea of what his value is on the league when he was exposed in the expansion draft there's teams that need goalies and he doesn't get picked

and spun somewhere else and I think that really should be an eye opener for him and people that are evaluating. Yeah, I'm on the record as still being a pretty marzip guy. I think that, you know, goalie performance can be very volatile from year to year, and obviously it was concerned that he took such a step back last year, but just given his age and track record, I feel like even if he, you know,

it seems like he's got plenty of time to make those adjustments, as you said. And, yeah, I'm still optimistic about him. I think that, you know, this could serve as a good thing. for him. I know that you wrote about this in your preview of the situation before the expansion draft where if he wasn't claimed maybe this would be a little bit of a wake-up call and sort of a good motivator

and maybe this is the best case scenario for the Red Wings where they didn't wind up losing him and he might be better for it. Sort of like just looking, taking a big picture of view of the Red Wings though, like I know you guys had and this is what I love about the athletic where you guys allow different

perspectives and views to be on the same site, but they're actually, like, well-founded and well-reasoned. And, you know, you had this one article from Frank Premanzano, which was sort of looking at how you'd rebuild the Red Wings, and it was, you know, this war conventional, just kind of blow it up and acquire as many picks as you can approach. And then you had Tyler Della writing about how maybe they should actually trade their picks and acquire defensemen and stuff like that. And, like, where are you on that side of the ledger? And what do you think that Kenny Hall and the Red Wings are actually going to do there?

because it does seem, you know, it's always tough to buy too much into what's said publicly, because there's a lot of, like, saving face involved, but it doesn't, it doesn't seem like, you know, Ken Holland in particular seems like he has too much of an appetite for this, you know, long-term rebuild where you're trusting the process and really blowing it all up. There's pretty much zero appetite for that. So, yeah, so we kind of went at it from all angles. So you had, Tyler Delo's piece was fascinating. It's like, look, if you were truly trying to win,

in Detroit, then you have to use these first drunk picks to get a impact defenseant because that's where their biggest need is. Frank Provenzano wrote writing from an executive point of view competing against the ratings for years, basically saying, and what made his position unique or his experience unique is he's been through both the complete tear down when he was with the Washington Capitals and they got Ovechkin. And he's also been with like, let's try to get younger on the fly without getting bad with the Dallas stars.

So he's been through both of them, and his conclusion was to tear it down. And then I did a piece that I really tried to outline, okay, to your question, what is the plan and what does it have to look like for it to succeed? And, you know, there isn't right now in the Detroit front office an appetite to tear it down. You know, I think there's, for every Edmonton in Toronto where they end up getting the franchise centerman and getting the ping pong ball to fall, you know, there's lots of other examples. where teams tear it down and it takes a long time to get out of that

and you may never get that franchise player. Yeah, you look at Arizona like who, what's been their reward for so far for, you know, I think Clayton colors, nice piece, but like they just didn't get the bounces, right? With that they really, really needed for a huge payoff.

And I think Detroit's also a unique, you know, when you talk to the reasoning about why they don't want to tear it down is they really believe that they've, they've instilled a culture of winning that that would be risk losing if you if you strip it down and and they you know they value that and how do you quantify that or how do you I don't know and and so that you know they on some level they feel like they're they're different than other organizations because they have

two decades of success that they want to they want that culture to remain and and they would feel it's you risk losing it um so what does it look like you know their plan is to accumulate a bunch of draft picks. And, you know, they, you can point to a lot of examples of getting good players late in the first round and the second round that are those impact players that you need. But, and Ken Holland said this, like, we need to draft better if we're going to do it. So it's, it's the combination of accumulating draft picks and hoping that you're, that you can just strengthen numbers and then hitting on some of them.

And they, you know, he said, look, we've kind of gone dry in the draft. And that's the reality. They have a reputation as being a good draft and developed team, and they have been for a long time. But they haven't drafted that impact defenseman or centerman aside from Dylan Larkin. And they haven't hit in the second and third rounds at those positions. Yeah, part of that is the price of being a good team every year where obviously it impacts your draft position, but also if you're, you know, for years on end trying to make deadline moves to bolster your lineup for a playoff,

and all of a sudden, you're kind of siphoning off draft picks and prospects. And you eventually do wind up paying a price for that. I mean, you know, like the Canucks are a great example of that under Mike Gillis. And you see it around the league where it's really tough to maintain your sort of pipeline of prospects while also being a good NHL team. I feel like, you know, Tampa Bay might be like one of the only teams that's actually been doing it successfully. And I guess you can the Chicago Blackhawks as well with all of their NCAA pre-agent signings. Yeah, and I would put the penguins in that category.

That was my criticism of the penguins for a while. You know, they were moving so many prospects. I didn't necessarily like to fill Kessel trade because that's what they were at a point where they needed an infusion of youth. And I thought the only way to do that was to keep those first rompics, keep those prospects and give them time to join Cindy Crosby. And, you know, I give the penguins credit because they have found guys late. And Jake Gensel, the latest example of that, I mean,

that's a great pick and and maybe there's a lesson there if you're a contending team and you have the you have the time i mean they've they've hit a lot into colleges and you look at their draft record a lot of their lot of their good young players that are helped them win the last couple of Stanley Cups come through the college route and they got that extra development time and you know i'm sure that's intentional yeah i believe it uh Craig thanks for taking the time to come chat man i know it's a a very busy time of the year, but I'm excited to have you back in the mix in the media game. And, you know, it's only been a week or so far, but the athletic, the Detroit branch is looking

pretty promising. And I'm excited to see where you guys go with it. Yeah, I'm excited to do it. The response from the fans in Detroit has been unbelievable. And it's really, I got a lot of emails and notes for people that are like, that don't live in Detroit. That aren't even Red Wings fans or Detroit. They're like, look, we're just excited that this is happening and we want to support good stuff.

And someone from Texas the other day just said, I signed up for a year just to support it. And I think, you know, what the athletic is doing and it's only going to grow from here is it's an exciting thing to be a part of. It's exciting to watch from afar as well, man. Enjoy the next couple of these hectic weeks and we'll get you back on the show sometime down the road. Awesome. Thanks to be sure. with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Filipovich and on SoundCloud at

SoundCloud.com slash hockey pdocast.