The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 190: With the Benefit of Hindsight, Part 1

Episode Date: August 16, 2017

Garret Hohl joins the show to help go back in time and redraft each of the entry drafts from the past decade. Armed with the benefit of hindsight, we start the journey by making our way through the years 2006-2010.  0:31 Ranking Methodology 6:16 2006 Draft 22:30 2007 Draft 36:30 2008 Draft 51:00 2009 Draft 1:00:07 2010 Draft If you’d like to get in on the fun or just have your voice heard in a future episode, feel free to send your questions in on either Twitter or via email and we’ll try to get to them the next time we do a mailbag show. Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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My name is Dimitri Filippovich. and sitting across from me, making his second appearance within in the same number of weeks. It's got to be a Hicipiocast recent record. It's Garrett, what's going on, man? Oh, you know, just visiting your humble abode. Yes, yeah.

So we teased this last time you were on. If people haven't listened to it for whatever reason, I highly recommend after listening to this podcast, go back to episode 188, where we do a Winnipeg Jets deep dive. But we decided that, you know, people love lists, people love arguing online about rankings. And we thought that that would make this the perfect little project for this stretch in mid-August we're in. So we are going to go back over the last decades' worth of drafts.

And we're going to redraft the lottery for each one of those entry drafts. How does that sound to you? We're going to be so wrong. Yeah, we're, well, I don't know. I think we're probably going to be more. are right than the teams that were drafting at a time because that's how hindsight works and we have the benefit of that but uh let's have some fun with it uh before we before we do start that though um i want to give two reminders to people listening one uh we really appreciate every rating and review on

itunes so take a minute of your day to go and uh you know you can customize it you can make uh john francois baroube jokes you can make pa parento jokes we always appreciate those just give the give us the five stars and uh that'll be great and the second thing is um we'll be doing more mailbag shows this summer so uh you can send in questions for those future episodes on either twitter or email and we'll we'll try to get to them as we see fit and with that out of the way let's get into it here um let's do the 2006 draft going all the way back oh so sir okay so i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna set the scene for you here this is the draft that eric johnson went first overall Greatest draft pick of all time.

Well, I don't know if the St. Louis Blues would agree with that. I don't know if the Colorado Avalanche would agree with that. I'm sure that the Chicago Blackhawks are happy that Eric Johnson went first overall. Who do you have going first in this draft? Well, just to give people a little bit of a preface of what I'm doing here, Two things. One, my rankings are very heavily weighted towards goals above replacement. Both NHL and HL versions.

HL versions won't be really matter at all for our earlier drafts. Yeah, there's third overall pick killed it in the HL. But yes, I do have access to HL war, thanks to the joys of working for a tracking company. But on top of that, I'm going to be. very restricted to or not restricted but I'm going to be looking a lot at recent performance so if some players have had a couple of tough years the last year or so that might usually if I'm wrong it's probably the reason why it's probably because they had an injury last year or something like that so that's a good uh that's a good point you make there in terms of methodology um so like obviously it'll

be different as we uh reach closer to today's date so like the 2013 draft for example we only have a few years worth of data to analyze them going all the way back to 2006. Like should we be doing this based on who has had the best career? Yeah. See, that's what makes it difficult because of the fact. I mean. Because we're not really evaluating based on what they're going to be like next season per se. Like we've already had 10 years worth of national data for some of these guys.

Most guys drafted in 2006, 2007 have hit their peaks. Yes. For example, 2016, 2015, we're dealing with. guys that, you know, we're still uncertain what their peaks are going to even be like. So that will make things a little interesting. I think my, I'm going to be mostly looking at peak performance and expected peak performance. Well, and in the case of, what would you say the peak performance of James Shepard, who went ninth overall to the Minnesota Wild was?

Did we ever get that peak? No, we never got that peak. But I will point out that I do like James Shepard for some reason. As a person or as a hockey player? As a hockey player. I've always enjoyed watching him. I don't mean that he was never better than a fourth liner, but I always enjoyed him. You know what?

This is a, I'm looking at this list right now from this draft. And this is a great reminder of a point that we constantly bring up, but I feel like fans sometimes lose sight of if their team signs someone or who they're looking for in the draft. Trevor Lewis, who I think of as like the prototypical fourth line player, was 17th overall in this draft by the Kings. And that's sort of what we go on to say where it's like the best depth players are usually the like the failed top prospects. So if your team is going out of its way to draft fourth liners, those guys will probably not wind up actually being fourth liners. Generally speaking, the fourth liners in junior, the prototypical fourth liners in junior aren't the guys who make it into the NHL to be fourth liners in the NHL.

Same thing for shutdown defensemen, although that one's a little bit more gray scale. Right. You find gray scale? It's not always. Is that a game with their own? reference? No, it wasn't actually. It's more, I mean, it's just not quite black and white. Right. As opposed to with forwards and death players, like we do find some defensive defensemen like Chris Tenev and some others definitely were more defensive defensemen in junior

or college. However, there are also a slew of defensive defensemen in the NHL who are actually scoring defenders in juniors and lower leagues. But yeah, tangent. Yeah, you want to go for the highest upside and then hope that everything else falls into place. Before we get into the actual order, I have a few notes here. Okay, go. Go with your notes. So this was one of the last years, I'm sure, you know, we discussed this before we went on air,

but if we went back to like the early 2000s or even the 90s, I'm sure we'd see this is much more of a trend. But this is kind of like one of the last years where teams just went, just went ham on goalies in the first round. You know, Jonathan Bernier went 11 to the Kings. Riku Hellenius 1 15th to Tampa Bay And final fact about my boy Riku

He had one career in NHL game Shut out Well he stopped both of the shots he faced in the seven minutes in relief that he played All two of them Which is remarkable That's all he got I think he's still playing in like the SM league or something I don't know he's still kicking around

I mean he's still not even 30 yet So Semian Vrolamov went to the caps Who was like the one guy who I guess guess you could say it actually lived up to his draft slot here and Leland Irving went 26 to Calgary. So I think it's a teams that definitely, like we'll see this as we move on further and further in these drafts, but teams still make mistakes, but the process has definitely started to become more refined in terms of teams kind of realizing what type of players they probably should be investing high draft capital in.

So who do you go first or all? Wait, I'm out on my notes. Oh, oh, sir. I can't find video of Eric Johnson getting picked and the analysis that followed because I was, for some of these picks, I was trying to, like, go on YouTube and see, like, what Bob McKenzie had to say as soon as the pick was taken and sort of hit their quick analysis. And there's no video of Eric Johnson and the analysis that followed him, which leads me to believe that it's some sort of deeper hockey conspiracy.

This was a draft where Bob Clark forgot Claudeau's name in the podium. Oh, yeah. And this is the best. that's one of all. So I mentioned Jonathan Bernier earlier. So Pierre McGuire, who I love Pierre. I know that that might be a polarizing stance to take because I feel like people either

really love him or really hate him. I find him entertaining. I don't even, you know, I'm personally like, I go to analysis. Yeah, I would, I personally would not use him as an analysis guy, but terms of entertainment? Yeah. Great. I enjoy, like, for what, take it for what it is. Like, I enjoy his, this kind of kind of how I feel about. You know the entertainment business. And I just how I feel about Jack Edwards.

You can tell he clearly loves what he's talking about. And I think that can sometimes be rewarding and refreshing. I like to see that. And no one better what you want on your trivia team. Yes. For hockey trivia. The problem is his hockey knowledge is other than actual facts in terms of where guys played and who they played with.

Like in terms of actual analysis is... His trivia knowledge is great. Suspect. And a good example of that here. Or I mean, just random anecdotes from him. I mean, he goes on about... When the Kings took Jonathan Bernier, he goes on about how he's not sure about the pick. But the reason he lists for being suspect of the pick, not, oh, they took this goalie 11th overall, is I don't know what kind of message is he going to send to Matthew Garron in the locker room.

Which I, that piece of analysis in common didn't age well in terms of wondering about what Matthew Garan's psyche would be like with this pick. Wow. The best names of this draft. There are some good ones. So I've got a few for each draft here and I'm going to let you pick as an unbiased party. We've got Dick Axelson, which is a crowd pleaser. We've got George Holloway, but HockeyDB lists him as George Budd Holloway. I love when HockeyDB lists like the players nicknames for some reason.

And then I think you might pick this one. John Matsumoto, who in the analyst community, his claim to fame is in 2011-12, he played one game for the Florida Panthers, I believe. Absolutely killed it. And his course irrelative was just something obscene. And then throughout the entire lockout in the 2012-13 season, whenever anyone would open behind the net, he'd be the first name that would pop up.

You know what? I do have a bit of a bias because of the behind-the-net era, for example. Do you? Do you? I think you got to go with Dick Axelson, though. 60-second to Detroit. we haven't really heard much from them in the decade since but we're going to give this a word to him

um all right let's get to the actual uh rankings here so for me the first pick here is between two names very clearly the two names is me um I think like most people would take jonathan taves but I really wanted to take nicholas backstrom yeah uh and that might be like a personal bias thing. I'm not sure that he's necessarily had a better career, been a better player. There's a lot of other factors to consider, but I've always just been such a huge fan of his game, so I'm kind of leaning that way. But what would you have in terms

of your actual more scientific evaluations? Well, those were the two that I was definitely leaning towards. I mean, Baxteram is that pure skill guy, and I think his defensive game is actually highly underrated and underappreciated. And that's, and to be honest with you, Baxrom has been the superior player as of recent.

However, I do think that Jonathan Taves, you know, like, because of the fact that Jonathan Taves did kind of get overrated with the whole Taves versus Crosby. Yes. Sometimes you get a little bit of an over-emphasized backlash that ends up going too far. I mean, I'm probably still leaning towards Taves first overall. just because of overall career. And I don't mean that in terms of... Not like the winning. Yeah, not the real nice contributions.

Yeah. I mean, Taves was an elite player and he's still one of the better players out there. I think he was something like 44th, 43rd in war last year versus Baxtermy's 27th-ish. But previously speaking, I think Taves did have the higher peak. And for that reason, I'm slightly leaning towards Taves, although a lot of... Honestly, I could definitely see a debate for Baxter. Yeah, I think it's a pretty clear, like, one, two tier to themselves here. And then then it becomes like another tier of maybe three or four guys that we can consider.

Milan Luchy's third overall. I had Milan Luchich, eighth. Which... He's another one of those guys where it's like, it's very easy to have this sort of overcompensating pushback to the ways he sometimes discussed. in the hockey community and the contract he just got off from the Oilers. But he's had a very, very successful career and has been a valuable on ice contributor. And we shouldn't overlook that just because of all the other stuff, right? He's an exceptionally good player.

He, especially in front of the net. There was one season where he was actually, or no, I'm trying to remember now. I tweeted out recently. It was something like over the span of three years, he had the highest shooting percentage for that span. because of the fact that he was a guy that knew what to do. He knew to park in front of the net and get those backdoor passes or get those rebounds. And it was effective. When they were firing on all cylinders, like when they were at their absolute apex,

that line of Luchich-Krati at Horton was really, really, really fun to watch. So who do you have after that Tave's Backstrom tier here? I think you can make the case for like three. players. I mean, Cloud Jaroos had some struggles recently, and he's not exactly the five-on-five guy that a lot of people think he is. Right. But he is definitely an elite power player guy. He's had some, he has had some great success, both in the playoffs and in the regular season. And again, I'm talking about individual success, not team success. Um, that's one of the guys I have definitely

looked at. There's Brad Mershawne who was for the longest time. Coming on strong. Hmm? Coming on strong. He's kind of the opposite of Claudeau in that regard. Yeah, and he's a guy that a lot of people, you know, thought was a mirage for the longest time and was just kind of going on the coattails of Patrice Bergeron, but it's definitely proven to the whole hockey community that he is a legitimate top talent. And you know what?

Fighting for that third spot is actually a little bit more difficult for me. I mean, I definitely have Kessel in there. Now, does Kessel's recent picture of hot dogs in the Stanley Cup swing your vote? Because I think that's the type of off-ice intangible that I'm willing to consider. If I'm going for my favorite player just in terms of... Well, you're putting Matthew Perrault first in this draft, so I'm not... Let's not go crazy. Notice I did not actually put Matthew Perrault first overall.

Yeah. You thought about it, didn't you? When I brought up the 2006 draft, I did see his name there, and I did think about it for a moment. I mean, there's some guys there who were pretty good and then just kind of disappeared. Okay, well, I think, I think, let's just, I think is it fair to say Baxman Tays were in their own tier and then sort of this Kessel, Marshaun, Giroux group we can kind of put here and then you can sort of. Although, you know what? I might actually put a guy who is kind of the opposite as Jonathan Taves, a guy that might be undervalued is Jordan Stahl. He was a guy that everyone always kind of spoke about the fact that he didn't really reach us.

potential just because of the fact that he's never been much of a score, but he's definitely he's been a good player in terms of war for the past couple of seasons and even before then, and he's always been a play driver. Yep. But a lot of because the fact that he was, um, the third in a, like in front of two elite talents. Yep. Um, he just kind of maybe lost a lot of bad value that he probably could have had if he

was on any other team when he got drafted. Yeah. And it's easy to sort of a, uh, fast, fantasy book or think what could have been, but obviously, you know, if the penguins take Jonathan Taves or Nicholas Baxter second overall. Or they take Phil Kessel's cities on their team. But you never know how, like, how that changes the actual trajectory of that individual player's career.

You can't just go. Nature, nurture, development. Yeah. You can't just go like, oh, Jonathan Tase is going to have this exact same career regardless of where he plays and all of a sudden, you're going to have him, Malkin and Crosby on the same team for a decade and they're going to win every single Stanley Cup. Like, that's, it's risky when you get into that business. But I agree.

I mean, Stahl has had a really nice career and is still a very valuable contributor and is going to be relied upon pretty heavily on this young Hurricanes team to do a lot of the heavy lifting, especially defensively. It's interesting that, I mean, I guess what the Penguins have, what do they have to show for that Jordan Stahl pick? I mean, they got Brian Dumlin in the trade, and they basically got Nick Bonino because they got Brandon Sutter and then traded him.

and both those guys contributed to their two most reasoned Cups. So it's not like they, you know, whiffed on that. They couldn't have nothing to show for it. They recoup value. But yeah, it's very tantalizing to think what could have been with Taves or Baxter on that team. Yeah, third overall, I definitely would put those guys into a debate, the Kessel, the Drew, and the Mershon. I think I would lean Mershaw. Yeah, I have Mershon, Kessel, and then Juru in that order.

But it's tough. Maybe, you know what? if we had this discussion like a year, especially like two years ago, like Giroux would probably be third on this list. It is tough to separate how he's declined at 515 recently. Yeah, it definitely becomes difficult, as we said, like looking, you know, peak overall performance and also projecting how they're, because their careers aren't over yet. So I'm going to throw a bunch of other names at you here.

Kyle Fosso. Yep. Milan Luchitch, as we mentioned. Derek Brissard. Brian Little, Artamonissimo, Nick Folino, Matthew Perrault. Say aye. And actually here's an interesting debate. So Eric Johnson goes first in this draft.

I forget where he went, but he obviously went far later. Jeff Petrie went 45th to Edmonton. If you, with the benefit of hindsight and knowing how their career is turned out, which career would you rather have if you could have it for the past 10 years? like as in me being that person as as the person running the team I would I would take Jeff Petrie yeah that's that's uh I would too

I didn't even honestly consider Eric Johnson for the top 14 in this draft which I don't know that's that's that's a tough one I mean we'll get into like the Yakopov drafts and stuff later it's not unprecedented but it's pretty tough um yeah so all those names I listed like we don't necessarily have to rent them in order, but is there anything that sticks out to you there in terms of guys that should

be considered much more highly or much more lowly than the others? I probably have Matthew Perrault higher than you, and not just because of my bias, but just because the fact that I'm kind of going by... So, you wouldn't have him ahead of, like, Derek Broussard, though, right? No. I mean, they're kind of similar players. But the one thing that's kind of interesting about Matthew Perrault is that his seasons while scoring numbers haven't necessarily gotten better every single season.

Last season was actually his best season in terms of war. The season before was his second best season in war. Three seasons ago was his third best season in war. It's abnormal for players to peak later. So when you got a guy like that, but also has an injury history like Matthew Perrault, it leads a lot of questions because the fact that, one, he's getting better and better, better, but two, he's also an injury concern. and so whether or not he'll just like kind of crash hard over the next four years or not.

It will be a real question because I could definitely see him as a player who could rise up the rankings. Another guy that's kind of underrated, I don't know if you mentioned him, but Michael Froelik. Yeah, especially. I mean, he's coming on strong. Obviously, that line with him, him and Backland was, and Cachuk was one of the finest lines to watch last season and incredibly effective. He kind of had a, he's had an interesting career. for a guy that was a former top prospect, right, where he's been traded a couple times and bounced around. He was always that that player that rated really well in terms of per minute stats,

especially in terms of shot generation, but never really seemed to put it together. And it's rewarding to see that he's finally reaching those lofty heights at this point of his career, even if it's taken a while to get there. I mean, the thing with Matthew Perrault, it's tough for me. And I wonder how this affects that aging career. mentioned with him is he didn't become an NHL regular until 2011, 2012. Whereas a guy like Derek Brassar had already had like three full seasons as a contributor

under his belt. So if we're talking purely from a value perspective or, you know, if you're the team drafting these guys, I think, I think how much work they've put in for the teams does need to factor into the evaluation as well. Yeah, I would agree with that. Obviously, it depends. We don't know that Matthew Pro couldn't have played in that HL earlier. Especially with the fact that he dominated the HL and the way that he did prior to coming over to the NHL.

Yeah. I do like 2007s draft. Yeah, are we done with 2006? I think I'm done. Yeah, I think I'm done too. After the first handful, you can make a case for a lot of different guys. 2007 where do you want to start with this one I'm still

you're still ranking your guys start with the fact this was a very interesting draft okay well let me get into it so there was a fascinating domino effect that happened early in this draft where my friends got drafted in this draft that's not what I was going to mention where I don't remember the exact timing but basically this was the sequence of events

the sharks trade Vesotoscela and Mark Bell to the Leafs for a first, second, and a future fourth. And that future fourth becomes, oddly enough, Craig Smith, who has had a much better career than Mark Bell and Vasatose Club combined. But then, you factor in the fact that the sharks went ahead and flipped that first and second to get Logan Kutcher in that same draft. And this was a year after John Ferguson Jr. traded Tukorask for Andrew Raycroft.

So in a calendar year, he traded valuable assets for Andrew Raycroft and then Vesotoskla. I know there's a lot of least fans listen to this podcast and I'm sure they're just stabbing themselves in the face right now. Garrett, do you have any response to any of that? Are you just messaging someone on your laptop right now? I'm enjoying the pain of others, the Shonenfront. Yeah, it was one of my friends got drafted in this one of my friends. one as a famous... Are you still on that?

Yeah, as a famous Vancouver draft. Taylor Ellington. The big storyline in this draft, looking back at it, which is funny to look at now, I remember at the time, and then watching some videos online, like, after every pick,

they were just talking about when Angela Esposito was going to go and why he was dropping. Oh, yes. Like, literally, like the top storyline of this draft was when

Angela Esposito was going to go, and I remember the Canadians passed out of him. It's like, oh my God, his hometown team didn't even I'm like, what's going on here? And I guess the 19 teams have picked before the penguins were onto something.

Yeah, and he's one of only five players, I think, that did not play single NHL game, I think. Yeah, it's pretty tough to do when you're a first round pick. I mean, we just see a lot of these guys get opportunity after opportunity to try and find some of that pedigree that they once teams thought they had. And to never get that shot is pretty remarkable. Yeah, I think it's something like, I could be wrong, but I think it's a round. Um, less than 30% for the back half of the first round making the NHL for over 200 games. Yeah. But what is it for playing one NHL game?

That's a good question. I feel like it's like in the 90%. Like playing one game? I'm going to say 70. It's got any more than more than 70. There's a lot of players who miss out. There are. But, okay, especially in terms of like a guy that was as highly regarded as, like, this is like a special.

that's true case where like it's just remarkable to me that he never once dressed in an NHL game and I think it also kind of depends on what era you look at because of the fact that you know they've gotten a little bit better I think in drafting in terms of recent history versus um the past history I mean there's definitely a lot more busts that I see in the first two rounds looking at you know the earlier years yeah versus the mid years obviously the recent years there's still a lot to come in to figure out whether or not. But to at least play like a single NHL game. Yeah.

The other note I had here is the way there's a three first round picks in this draft. How many points are you? They got Sam Gagne, Alex Plont, and Riley Nash. Mm. Which, uh, three elite players. When, when you look back at, you know, they're obviously in a much better shape now, led by Connor McDavid and Leon Drey Seidel, but when you look back at like, oh, why were those teams with Taylor Hall struggling so much?

Was it because Taylor Hall was a bad leader and a bust? No, it's because all these other assets were just so poorly managed. They just had no complimentary talent because they kept taking the Alex plans of the world. Eminton Oilers back then were one of the prime examples of how it's not that rebuilding doesn't work. It's that bad rebuilding won't work because they didn't accumulate assets. they didn't trade away expiring contracts. They didn't draft very well.

They drafted for role players as opposed to just trying to accumulate talent and then fill in the role players through both depth quality skill players or trading away, you know, those accumulated assets once you have enough or, you know, free agency, heaven forbid, because the fact that let's be honest, most role players are easy to acquire through free agency. Yeah. Now that I'm looking at it, I might actually amend my estimate for games play just because there are a lot of Nick Ross, Patrick White, and Logan McMillan and all these guys

I never actually want to making it. But I do think it's higher than 70%. Yeah. When I was looking at like the 2012, 2011, 2010, it's definitely gone up better. It's gone much higher. Yeah. But the 2007s, eights, nine, sixes, those ones are a lot lower. The one final note I have, and that's before we get into the rankings is it's, I forgot how much of a bummer it is that we never got to see Alexi Chirapon out of play. Yeah, that's a tough one. It's a shame. The best names in this draft.

Charles Antoine Messier, Luca Caputti, Ben Blood, which I like is nice and simple. Or, and you know, I mentioned earlier, how much I love when HockeyDB includes the nickname. James Joshua Podge Turnbull. I think I'm going for number two. Luca Caputti? Yeah, that's a good one. I'm okay with that one. Okay, let's get into the actual rankings of this draft.

Why don't you start us off? This one... Well, this one's pretty... I mean, this one's the first... Well, maybe it's not, actually. The top of this draft is really good. The top of the draft is very good, yeah. Like, this draft goes like 10 deep in terms of, like, legitimate stars, I think.

very much everything from Brandon Sutter to I mean when you get into the Zach Hamels of the world how can you not be impressed and Nick Bonino and Carl Olzner

so I think the debate here up top is Patrick Canvers Jamie Ben I might throw Ryan McDonough in that mix you would rather have Ryan McDonough than P.K. Subbin I would rather have

Ryan McDonough for PKs. I my good friend, and I know that people listening, there's going to be a few of you out there that are going to be happy about this because I know sometimes you say that I agree too much with my co-hosts. I strongly disagree, good sir. I have PKK-Denance the second best defender in the draft. Well, I do too.

I mean, no, I have a man as diverse. No, don't try to trick me with your mind games. Don't try to love me in a sleep here. So you think the McDonough versus Ben versus Kane is a legitimate argument? Yes. I'm a huge fan Ryan McDonough's game. Yeah. Both stylistically, but also in terms of his value and his production.

Not in production points, but production and overall value on ice to the game. I mean, like I said, I am heavily slanted towards recent performance. Slightly because of the way that I've produced things, which, you know, there has been years where P.K. Suvent has been superior. defenseman and there has been years where Ryan McDonough's been the superior defenseman. So, you know, the argument can be had. But personally, I think Ryan McDonough has been overall better in terms of value. And I think part of the reason why the fact that he's so undervalued is because he's always been playing with one of the largest pylons in the game.

Yeah. I wouldn't even describe him. I'd describe him as more of an anchor than a pylon. Yeah. It's a personal preference. I mean, yeah, we'll be fascinating to see, especially if he plays with Kevin Chatton Craig this year, how much that opens in my. and how much as a result's improved.

Who's also in my top 10 for this draft? Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, okay, let's get into Kane versus Ben, though. Let's ignore McDonagh in this discussion. So you got Kane the score and you got Ben the more play-driving player. Right, and I feel like it took Ben a bit longer to come on. Jamie Ben, who only played in Junior B for the Vancouver Island Junior Hockey League just because of the fact that the team

wanted Jordy and two different teams wanted him and his parents said whichever team will also play Jamie will get Jordy and so. I worked out pretty well for them. Yeah. The next year after that, I mean, even then, Jordy was still the better player, the

superior player, but the next year Jamie went on to play in the BCHL and he lit it up and the rest is history. Bingo. Yeah, I think That was my pyramid wire moment.

I would rather, I think I would rather have Patrick Kane's career than Jamie Benz if I was drafting for a star roll in this draft, but I do think it, it's a testament to,

the strides Jamie Ben has made over his career that it's a legitimate discussion because obviously at the time with his draft, that was not a thing that was in people's minds. Yeah, I would go,

I put McDone in the conversation, but I did go, uh, Kane, then Ben, then McDonough. Yeah, so I have Kane, Ben, and then Sub-Ben. Too much agreement. Well, the next tier of forwards, you have Patriotty, you have Jake, Jake the Snake, Voracek.

Mm-hmm. I have Voracek actually above Patcheretti. Yeah, I have Patcheretti and then Warchek, but it was super interchangeable. Mm-hmm. Then I have Sioux-van, and then I have Shaddenkirk. See, I have Kuchur and tourists ahead of Shaddenkirk. but Couture is actually right next so yeah and once again like I mentioned earlier it's remarkable that uh the sharks turned Vesotoskal and Mark bell into Logan Couture basically

yeah so then we haven't mentioned JVR yet who obviously went second in this draft I think he's coming up pretty soon in this list all right like yep I mean he's he's in that tier with me with other fours like uh Wayne Simmons and Michael Backland yeah Are there any other guys that are in that discussion from this draft? Like there's a lot of like very interesting sort of second third line guys, but there's no one that's really sticking out. There's one person who, um, analogical types might push higher than.

Yeah. So I have Jake Mazen 13th and Justin Braun 14th in this draft. But, um, obviously like if you were going to say like, oh, I'd rather have Jake Muzzin than jeez, I mean, he was like, I guess. I don't know.

Yeah. It depends on need or personal preference. There was a lot of, there's a lot of interesting, I mean, we didn't mention guys like Lars Eller and David Perron who had really good careers or even depth guy. You know, like Nick Pinino, Carl Hagelin, Patrick Maroo, and all these guys went late in this draft, Alex Collorn. You know, an interesting name here that went in.

Brennan Smith? I love Brendan Smith. He didn't really. factor into my thought process here, but he's definitely worth an honorable mention. Speaking of elite war for H.L, T.J. Brennan was also from his draft. Yeah. T.J. Breeden is, he's going to have elite war in the H.L. when he's like 47 years old. He's one of the best H.L. players. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing, which is good for him. If Gini Datenov, who basically played like half a season or something, I think.

then went to the KHL for a long time and made magic happen with Nikita Gusev and Vad M. Shepachev, who are both property of the Vegas Golden Knights now. But he, Datenov himself, has obviously signed with the Panthers and we'll be coming back to the NHL this season. So I'm kind of curious to see how he does because it's remarkable that it's been this long since he was sort of on our minds. But I'm curious to see how he's going to do. because I mean the KHL is the second best league in the world

in terms of quality although it's kind of all over the place now it really depends on what team you're looking at there are some teams out there that I would say are worse than the average HL team and their teams out there that are significantly better but with the talent kind of excellent Yeah I feel like the volatility in that league

like between the highs and the lows in the league structure obviously a lot of that just has to do with the financial landscape but it's uh like that team last year had what team was it that had uh datsuke and kovych and on and on and on like that i remember i was looking at their goal differential and their record i just like yeah they're uh man against boys it's uh st petersburg yeah s k yeah their their numbers last year were just hilarious yeah they're a pretty decent team uh covvvadov dadanov dadaanov datsuk uh platochokov

there is definitely a lot of good oves in that group. All the oves. All right. I think that's it for 2007. Yeah. Let's move on. 2008.

This is a good draft. This is the draft that I have not really looked that much into it. But, okay, well, let me, let me lay some stuff like that. Zach Begoshin for a overall. So looking back at it, um, Bob McKenzie, who's obviously the, uh,

the goat. the hockey godfather. I mean, his accuracy and consistency from year to year with, you know, his polls of scouts and GMs and putting together these lists is really remarkable. And amongst all the other insider stuff he does, I feel like that's something we don't really

give him enough credit for. It's just how reliable of a pre-draft source he is for what's going to happen. But when I was looking back at this draft, he made it seem like the Drew Dowdy versus Zach Bogosian discussion was a very, very real thing

for a second overall. Do you remember it as that? Because I always just, I guess maybe just because of how their careers have turned out, I've always just kind of considered a foregone conclusion that Dowdy was always going to go second. But at the time, it really did seem like a debate.

Zach Bogosian was a 6'3 defenseman who put over a point per game in the OHL, back when the OHL was significantly stronger league than the WHL and the QMJHL. That was... Sorry, I'm hiccuping.

That was a big deal. Yet somehow central scouting and their final rankings had Luke Shen above him. Yeah, let's not talk about that. That was a weird one. So like, Zach Bikodian had a lot of promise to him. And he was also a guy that like, you know, like PCS or P GPS or all those stats models

would have also loved. Zach Begotian as well as the favorite. So the stats people and the scouting community love Zach Begoshin. His career... What do you think went wrong with Zach Begoshan? Do you think if we replay his career a hundred times? Like how many of those times do you think he actually realizes that potential and becomes like a franchise defenseman? Speculation, but I think with Zach Begoshan, a lot of it had to do with nurture more of the nature. I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that he went to the line of thrashers, which was a bit of a mess of an organization.

he was rushed he had a really bad injury in his first season he actually had a very hot start to his rookie season the line with thrashers were very happy with his draft pick for the first half of his rookie season the year after he got drafted

so like you know there's a lot of argument about rushing him but he actually came in very strong and then he had a significant injury I'm trying to remember whether it was broken arm or broken leg I can't remember which one it was but apparently that injury has been a bit of a chronic problem for him. But I also think part of it is just

complete speculation here, but from what I've heard here and there, I don't believe his he's quite a student of the game in terms of once he's off when he's not, like he works hard when he's on the ice, but I think once he's

off the ice, he just doesn't care. I've heard that he doesn't watch any hockey games. So I think... I don't either. Yeah. Of course. All you have to do is look the spreadsheet, he tells you all you need to know. Also, Zach Grosian is the only person that will be discussing that has me blocked on Twitter. Oh, well, when we get to the Ivan Rane draft.

For some reason, I always defend the guy and he, for some reason, has me blocked, but I find insane. Yeah. So I think part of it was the fact that, you know, he didn't have that internal drive with the skill sets that he had. But there is a little bit of question mark in terms of his hockey IQ. That's always been his problem. He's always had a lot of the tools, but not so much the tool locks. Yeah, it's interesting that obviously, like, the thrashers put him in the lineup immediately,

and some of that has to do with, as you mentioned, like, he was kind of considered to be an NH already, sort of at least like frame, right? Like, he was a beast, whereas the Blues really took their time with Petrangelo. I think, like, he played eight games and nine games in his draft plus one and draft plus two seasons. So they never really became an actual fixture with a team until, three years later, which, you know, in hindsight, like I don't think there's necessarily one right way. I generally think that if you think the guy is physically ready to keep up with the

NHL grind, I think you should put them in the lineup because of what we know with Asian curves and how this stuff works. Like you want to try and maximize that value as soon as you can as opposed to waiting for years. But it's interesting how those two guys have taken such different paths and how differently their careers played out and they went third and fourth in this draft obviously. Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking at the rest of it. I mean, a lot of defensemen, and we'll mention this again with, I think, the 2012 draft later on,

a lot of defensemen went in the first round in this draft. Unfortunately, a lot of them just went in the wrong order. Yeah. Or the picks were misguided, like, you know, talking about the cold and two birds. It's kind of interesting. Lucas B's, uh... The NHL Skels seem to know or GMs or whoever,

seem to know which years of the years that, you know, this is a good year for defensemen. Yeah, they just get the wrong guys. But they get the wrong guys. Yeah. Tyler Kuma. We'll kind of talk about that for 2012 as well, yeah. So there was a pretty cool moment. I forgot about this, but Pierre McGuire

refers to Eric Carlson as the Swedish Brian Rolfsky for some reason. But then, Tim Murray, who I believe, I guess he was, was the assistant GM at the time. Sons glasses looks like 30 years younger than he does right now. Passes the baton over to Daniel Alpherson,

who in front of the home auto crowd picks Eric Carlson with the senator's first round pick. So that was a pretty cool moment. Eric Carlson looks so young. He doesn't have that pirate goate, facial hair thing going on, and his hair is shorter and lighter, and he looks like a completely different person.

He's kind of good at hockey. Yeah, he wound up good. Witt, and so actually I was going to segue there to how good he is and whether he should be first in this draft, but I want to throw some of the best names in this draft at you and you pick again for him. Okay. Tommy Wiggles. This might be, you know, you might be, oh, that Tommy Wiggles isn't a great name, but then we get into the Wimmy Tongles, the Timmy Wongles, the Wimmy Tingles. Yeah, yeah. The Wimmy Tingles.

I've always enjoyed his name. He's an actual NHL or, too, sort of. Yeah, unlike a lot of these guys. 129th overall to the Leafs, Joel Champagne. It's time for some champagne, yeah, yeah. The greatest basketball player of all time. Mikhail Jordan.

Miquel Jordan, yeah. 105th overall to the Hurricanes. Stefan della Robert, great name, 204th to the capitals. And Matt's Yostin Froshaug. 161st of the Canucks. This is a hard one to choose. Yeah.

Like, the sentimental pick here is Tommy Wingles. Yeah. But I also like Mikhail Jordan Yeah, come on I mean No, we're not Crossing over

Crossing over from basketball To baseball to baseball To hockey I mean What can this guy did? Although he was significantly different In performance

Between those three sports Yeah He wasn't Yeah I think that's fair I like the The Carolina connection there as well

It all works out Um So Stamco's went first In his draft Stamco's versus Carlson I might go Carlson see i might i have carlson dowdy then stamcoe's

oh dowdy then stamcoes i have stagos yeah i think i think here's what here's my argument i don't obviously i have dowdy three if you go stank goes ahead of dowdy or even stamp goes ahead of carlson like i get it it's like stamcoes yeah generational one of the best goals scores of all time like it's very very valuable obviously the best uh long term performer in goals relative to expect the goals. Yeah. He's a finisher.

It's a bummer. Last season, I thought he really finally looked healthy at the start of the year and was looking awesome, playing with Kuturav and Nemesnikov, I believe. And then obviously, he got injured again and missed the rest of the season. And at this point, I just hope that we get some semblance of peak Stephen Stampcos again for a sustained period of time because it feels like it's been a while, which is disappointing, considering the lofty heights he reached early in his career. I think just in terms of my Dowdy argument,

I just think having a guy who can so seamlessly and effortlessly, you can just lock him down for... He's good to go. You can just put him there. Just play with whoever, 27 minutes a night. He's just going to consistently tilt ice and be really good. I understand that Carlson is very clearly ahead of Drew Dowdy for me here. Yeah.

And please, let's not turn this into a Carlson versus Dowdy debate. But I think, like, true doubt, he is, sometimes it kind of goes back to a Jonathan Dave's thing where it's like, we try to overcompensate it a little bit, but he's freaking awesome. So overrated and he's underrated. He's so awesome and he's so fun to watch and he's such a smooth skater and great with a puck and very good, pretty much every facet of the game. And I think that, you know, those three are pretty clearly the top three here. And then obviously it's personal preference. Yeah, there are some interesting defensemen as we spoke that kind of, you know, I mean, Alex Petrangelo was an act. guy that was considered to be a top talent and actually turned out to be.

But there's definitely some interesting ones. Like afterwards, uh, John Carlson, who was late first round, Roman Josie, early second round. DJ Brody.

T.J. Brody. Uh, fourth round. And you even have like the Travis Hamannick and Jason Demers, well, obviously lower, but, yeah,

um, second round for, and then, you know, whether did we mention Spurgeon and Gardner, like, there's, there's a lot of defense talent in this draft and it's

funny that a lot of them slate compared to some of the other guys who never really want up having NHL careers. Where do you put Brain and Holdby on this list? Goleys are so hard to rank because it's just so different. Yeah. When you find the spread in performance

in terms of impact, let's just say you're using a war model. Right. Goaltenders basically for the most part, will either make your team or destroy your team. There's very seldom like a middle ground, despite the fact that the actual talent distribution

is completely smaller. So if you're just going from a talent-wise aspect, there's a very small gap between the best and the worst. I mean, I think we've gone over this before, but if you're the worst, you know, let's just pretend that the market is absolutely perfect in the top 60 goaltenders are in the NHL. That means the worst goaltender in the NFL.

that means the worst goaltender in the NHL is the 60th best in the world. You look at the first lines in NHL hockey, there's 90 first liners. So if you're the worst goaltender in the NHL, you're a higher ranking in best of the world than the worst first liner in NHL, even though you're a terrible backup. I mean, then you, you know, you had some spots with players in the AHL that are probably better in Europe. So then maybe you're dealing with. Yeah, but I think you know, like the argument against goalies as valuable assets isn't how useful they are.

It's our ability to predict their performance from year to year, right? It's a combination of the high volatility. The best goaltenders will still have bad years. The worst goaltenders will still have good years. We've gone over this last time. Then the second thing is the fact that, you know, the talent distribution is a lot smaller than in the NHL. So what that means is, you know, if you get a lot. a less good guy.

On average, he's still going to be, you know, still fairly pretty good relative to the best. And then the third thing is the fact that the market makes them a little bit more replaceable. You're able to find not elite talent goaltenders fairly easily, but you're still able to find plug-in-play goaltenders fairly easily compared to other positions. Right. But the difference between the career Braden Holby has had, especially over the past couple of years versus your plug and play guy, I feel like that.

There is a pretty big discrepancy, no doubt. Obviously, for this exercise, we sort of have the luxury of knowing how Bradenholdby has performed or not trying to predict how he's going to do the next two seasons, right? So it's definitely, obviously, it's kind of apples and oranges is tough to differentiate between that. In terms of the forwards, like we mentioned all the defensemen in his drafts and I feel like out of my top 14,

and there's like eight or nine of them are defensemen. But then you get into guys like Derek Stepan, Jordan Eberle, Adam Henrique, Cam Atkinson, and then even if you want to lump in, like, you know, Mikhail Bodker, Colin Wilson, Josh Bailey, Gus Nyquist, I guess. Like, do you have any thoughts on any of those guys? You know what?

You're completely on with those guys. Who's the cream of the crop of that group? Is it Derek Steppen? Yeah, I think so. It's tough call between Jordan Amberly and Derek Steppen. I would definitely put those two above the rest of the depth guys. But, I mean, there's a lot of talent there with even if you're going with the Atkinson, Wilson, Ennis. Yeah.

Do we have any other thoughts on this draft before we move on in 2009? No, we can continue. Yeah. I think we'll get more and more details as we go. Yeah. As we will, it becomes like fresher in our minds. 2009. So I didn't, I didn't want to spoil this for you before we were recording.

I really wanted to. But so Pierre McGuire, this is an all-time Pierre-Maguire line here. I'm excited. When the Tampa Bay Lightning pick Victor Hedman second overall, he just rants and raves about the pick, right? Loves Victor Hedman, great. But then he drops this nugget. He goes,

now you're talking about putting him on a defense in Tampa with the likes of Andre Mizarro's, Paul Ranger, Lucas Crycheck, and Paul Smady. And then he just doesn't have a follow-up point to that, and then he's move along. But he made it seem like that was like a good list of defensemen

to be a part of. Paul Ranger, that's a name I haven't heard for in a while. Yeah, it was Andre Mizarro's former Vancouver Giants legend. Yeah, heck of a group of players. One of those things is not like the others. Bob McKenzie's top 10 was, as I mentioned earlier, very accurate. He did have this anecdote in there about how, you know, he had Oliver Ekman-Larsen 8th, and he said that he described him as the wild card in the top 10,

and he wasn't on three of the 10 ballots at all, but then one scout told him that he had him third overall in this draft. So I want to know who that scout was because he's pretty clearly better at his job than his peers. That one scout agrees with me because I have Oliver Ekman-Larsen as third overall in this draft. Let me check where I have them. I have them third as well. So, well done to that scout. It's definitely different.

I mean, it's not like Oliver Ekman-L-L was playing in a league that was highly scouted and well-known at the time. Your thrashers took Jeremy Moran 45th overall in this draft. He's been traded five times. including the Blackhawks trading for him twice and then trading him away twice. It's like they keep, but it's like they've had the same GM the entire time. So it's like,

it's like Stan Bowman, he just keeps forgetting about, he's like, yeah, let's get him on board. Yeah, I kind of like this guy's stats. All of a sudden I'm like, I don't really like him. Just keep, every time he circles around, comes back to Jeremy Moran. The fourth round of his draft.

Another highly, highly performing HL player. Jeremy Moran? Yeah. Yeah, he's probably one of those like four A guys where that's at this point I don't think we're going to see much from an angel level. But I made a trade joke about him once and he retweeted it. So he seems to at least have a good sense of humor about it.

The fourth round of this draft was, you know, every once in a while, obviously doesn't have any predictive value. There's no rhyme or reason. It just sometimes happens this way. But it had like Sammy Vatinin, Matissex-Echolm, David Savard, Craig Smith, Casey Zizekis. Had like almost as many regular NHEL as like the first round, especially the second round, which is pretty, pretty interesting. I'm not sure how the teams and the scouts feel about that.

Before we get into the order, the best names. Casey Zizekis, as I mentioned, pretty good one. Definitely great name. John Francois, Barube, I just have to get him a shout out. You know, massive friend of the podcast. Maxwell Tardy. And I think I think this is going to be a consensus pick. Dick Panic.

No question. Congratulations. Congratulations to Richard. Okay, so let's get into order here. So we both have OEL third, as we mentioned. I'm guessing we probably have one of two. Yeah, but we had, I guess this is like a recurring theme now, I'm sensing, but it's this sort of, you know, forward versus defensemen.

Tavares versus headman? I mean, I guess you really can't. go wrong. What do you, what do you think is more valuable if you were constructing a team from scratch? Obviously, like, no specifics in terms of names or playing types. Just if you could have a top defenseman or a top center. Well, I think one of the problems that we have with answering that question is there's a little bit of a chicken and egg. I mean, most people view your number one center being the most important spot.

But however, most players as they're developing, if they're one of the best players in Peewee or Adam or those levels, if you have your best player, you put him as your first line center, you don't put him as your wing, you don't put him as your defense because of the fact that he's going to kind of be in that position. so you just wonder are number one centers best because it is the most important position or is it the most important position because we tend to put the best players there? I mean, from what we know from more data, Ford's generally speaking at the elite end are better than defensemen at the elite end. Although headman has been neck and neck with Tavares in those numbers for the past couple of years

if we're dealing with the specific. And we do know that defensemen, as we would expect, have a larger impact on goals against while forwards are more specialized in being just offense. Right. Actually, it's kind of a random, interesting aside. We normally think of forwards as both offensive impact and defensive impact and defensemen as specialized with unknown situations. But we kind of actually see the opposite. defensemen tend to be both Ford and defense defensive impact and forwards tend to be more specialized towards offense with the occasional exceptions.

Right. So are you leaning towards Tavares overheadman here? I did place Tibera's overheadman, but the more I talk about it, the more I'm like, maybe not. Victor Hedman is just so good. So, so, so, so, so, so. He is a complete defenseman in my personal opinion. Yeah, he's, he's amazing.

Yeah, it's tough. I think that's pretty clearly those three. Now we get into an interesting It gets a lot of messy after that. There's like six guys almost You could talk me into I was going forth overall in this draft And none of them are a Vanderkane

Who actually went fourth overall in this draft. Although Van der Kaine, another player who had a very good start in his career That's kind of pittled It was nice to see that he was able to stay a healthy last year. for the most part, I think it had a pretty... Although he had a rough shooting percentage in the first half.

It makes you wonder if he was fully healthy. Well, it bounced back. And, I mean, the shooting percentage thing has been something that's kind of plagued them for most of his career. So we have Ryan Ellis, Matias Eccholm, Ryan O'Reilly, and Matt Dushane. I think I'm cool with that as, like, the next tier in this draft. If I'm going to be honest, I do have an Eckholm bias.

So I'm... I am going to put him forth. Just not because he deserves. So you have three straight Swedish defensemen. Yes, actually. Let's stick that in your pipe and smoke it. It's a power move. Yeah.

See, I feel the opposite way. I have a personal preference towards Ryan Ellis. How do you feel about that people who think we agree too much? I love Ryan Ellis. It's awesome that he's actually, turned into being this like incredible NHL defenseman. Because obviously his major junior numbers

are just preposterous. But it obviously like it took a while. I like that, you know, we mentioned this all right. Ryan Ellis is the play, since we're talking about, uh,

quotes from, uh, Pierre McGuire, he's, uh, he's a guy that said, uh, Ryan Ellis proves analytics don't work.

Even though Ryan Ellis was an analytical, darling for years. Yeah, I, you know, we mentioned this all the time about how prospects don't necessarily have this, like, stepwise developmental trajectory.

Like it's not like every season they get like a certain percentage closer to their actual peak. Like sometimes it does come in peaks and valleys and you never really know how it's going to materialize and it's different for every guy. For Ryan Ellis like he really did just seem to get slightly better and the predators gave him slightly more opportunity pretty much every season culminating in this last year, which he was incredibly good and used a ton. and so I have a personal preference towards him, but you can make the argument for it.

I'm Colorado Avalanche-centric here. Duchenne versus O'Reilly. Yeah. What if I said Ryan O'Reilly? I had Ryan O'Reilly ahead of Ducene on this list, so I would say stop looking at my Excel file. Well, so does war. Dachain had a, I mean, like some people are going to argue,

well, Dachain was on a rough team. It's like, and Ryan O'I, Riley was on a pretty team. yes yeah no that's uh i think you can make the argument this year like it did seem i don't want to psychoanalyze the guy he doing that but watching some avalanche games i don't know why i was doing that but mat matthew shane looked like a man who had uh had had his soul sucked out of his body like he was really going through the motions so i do wonder i do wonder if he gets tricked i mean i'm can't believe it hasn't happened yet but if he does get traded before next season or At some point in the season, I do wonder how that will be reflected in his performance.

But I still, I'm going to put it out there. I'm going to guess that Ryan O'Reilly still would be the superior player. And the reason why I think Ryan and O'Reilly does very well in the things that a lot of us analytical types kind of look at that some people often ignore in terms of producing extra value. Whether that's, you know, he's okay penalty drawer. He doesn't take any though. But he just doesn't take any at all. And that it has huge value on top of it. I mean, he's one of the few players that actually does produce a lot of faceoff value.

I mean, I think he was like nearly four goals above replacement in faceoffs. And that's nearly a win. So we've got some interesting wingers coming up here. I mean, there's the Tar, Silverberg, Kreider, even Marcus Johansson. I guess if you want to lump in Amanda King, Kyle Palmieri A great winger Nick Letty If we're just talking about like

How aesthetically pleasing They are to watch Nick Letty is in his top five in this draft I mean he's And you know what? There's a not a winger But one player that I would put near the top tiers Is actually Nizim Kadry Yeah he was in he I didn't mean

I didn't mention amongst those wingers Because I guess like he's been he's played center in his career, but he's definitely can be lumped in with those guys. So do you prefer a cadre to those other guys I mentioned? Through quite a few of them, actually. Cadre is another player who he's done very well analytically speaking

over his career and producing value in terms of production, tilting the ice. Not the greatest defensive player, but overall, he's definitely a good player. So what do you make, okay. I don't know if we've ever had this discussion either on or off the air, but Jacob

Silberberg is a fascinating player for me because also great analytical player. Yes, but if you watch him or if you read any, you know, scouting reports on him or player profiles, like his best discernible weapon as a player is his shot. Yet, he shoots like 8%, which I've always just, I found that, uh, I found that, uh, imbalance between like it's i guess it's one of those things where like i guess maybe he just can't do it consistently enough or maybe he's he is taking shots from bad angles i don't know i don't know what it is but like when you see him get his shot off and everything goes right like you're like holy crap that guy should be one of the top snipers in the league but then he's just more of a

high volume low percentage shooter yeah that's kind of i mean i think a lot of people struggle with how well and how well a shooter of players. I mean, someone looks at Alexander Vetchkin. Alexander Betchkin's long time has been considered a goal

score extraordinary because of his shot. But he's been a low percentage shooter for... Right. Most of his career. He shoots like a madman. He's just and the reason why is because he's taking good and bad shots. Silverberg? He has been on the upward trajectory. I mean...

I mean, this past year was the first time he'd ever top double digits and shooting percentage. Yeah. I mean, he did shoot a lot from front of the net this season. I haven't really looked into the past seasons, though. It just seems like he should or could be a guy that puts it all together and has a 30-goal season. But, I mean, he is turning 27 at the start of this year. So maybe that. I mean, listen, if he settles into being this type of player where he's, like, scoring in the low 20s,

but he's just like an awesome two-way wing. Actually, I think part of the reason why his shooting percentage might be low is, I don't think that he's been used too much appropriately on the power play. And that's going to have an artificial inflation of your shooting percentage based off of how much he play on the power play. That's true. I mean, his power of the goals by year are 2-1, 2, 2, 2, and then 5 last year. So that could definitely be part of it. Yeah, it's funny looking back at it now.

I mean, he's just such a superior player to Bobby Ryan. We're not even taking into account, like, contracts and all that. any of the other guys I mentioned we're talking about Mike Hoffman Thomas the Tar Chris Crider Cody Egan I'm just kidding kidding

you know what there's a some other good defense man you mentioned Nick Letty there's Sammy Vatinin Tyson Barry Dimitri Orlov it's a good defenseman in the draft

and none of them were really I mean we all you know I haven't an OEL but another other guys were really the top top I had Letty in my top 14, but the other guys didn't quite make it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm 13th. Should we talk about, man, there's some interesting names that actually went in the lottery of this draft.

Scott Glennie, Jared Cowan, Magnus, PRV, Beck Wally. He still had the Svenson. Dimitri Kulikov. You know, Dimitri Kulikov was in Bob McKenzie's consensus pre-draft top 10. How does that make you feel? Oh, they just got a top 10 talent on their team to play on their second slash third pair. Okay. Tim Erickson, there's another interesting name.

He was in this draft? But no, he went back into the draft, didn't he? Are you just randomly mentioning Tim Erickson? No, no, no, no. He was in the 2009 draft. But he had, I feel like he went back. He was one pick before Marcus Johansson. Oh, man.

Drafted 23rd overall by the country flames. Another guy who actually has performed well in the HL, in my personal opinion, just from viewing him and also from the numbers that I have access to that other people don't. Yeah, it just never has put it together in the NHL. It's been given a lot of trials on a lot of teams. Yeah, I think it's going to happen for Tim Merrickson at this point. All right, let's do 2010 here. Okay. So the one random anecdote I have here before we get started.

The Hurricanes took Freddie Anderson, 187th overall in this draft in the seventh round. And then he went back into the draft two years later, and the Ducks took him 100 picks sooner. Which is interesting. I forgot that that had happened, but I think that happened. The best names in this draft. Are you ready for this? I'm ready. Eunice Donscoy.

Pretty good one. Tom Kunakle. That's a good one. Greg McKegg. Ludwig Runsfeld. and Brock Bukabum. I don't know if I have a favorite in that list. There's some quality, like...

Just some solid, solid hockey games. Yeah, some solid hockey names. Nothing that's like really elite talent there, but there's no real weak ones kind of dragging them down. Yeah, let's go away here as Don Square. Okay, I like that one. Okay, this was obviously the Taylor versus Tyler draft.

I'm trying to think of where to start discussion. I don't have either of those guys first overall. I guess a good place to start this discussion. Do you have Teresenko? Yes. Oh my God. Stop agreeing with me. But this is where it gets interesting because how...

But then I have Sagan's... See, this was a bad defense draft. Oh, yeah. Like, I have one... I have one guy in my top 14 from the blue line. I don't have any... I don't have anyone in my top 10. I have John Klingberg, 14th, and that's the highest offenseman for me.

I have Falk and Pissick just great. Oh, no, Pissick's right after. He's 15th. Sorry, Pissick, you just missed. Oh, you know, we're mentioning Angela Esposito earlier about how he's, you know, that subplot sort of just dominated that draft. Yeah. I remember this one being like the Cam Fowler, like, when is Cam Fowler going to go?

Yeah. I guess, you know, the Camphiler has worked out better than Angela Spicito. Yeah, I have Cam Fowler 17. you know, he's drafted 12. But he was supposed to be like a top, top of guy in this draft. This draft was actually fairly decent, though, in getting... Oh, the forwards are awesome. First rounders right.

Like, I think this might be the only draft for my top nine players are all actual first line players, or first round players. Now that I'm looking at it. That's not the case for me. Yeah. I have Mark Stone in the top 10. Well, that's why I cut off. off right there because Mark Stone was next.

What about Brandon Gallagher? Oh my God, did I forget Brandon Gallagher? I think I did. I did. Height doesn't measure heart. No, it doesn't. Um, so you just got proven wrong. Boom. www.

Um, wrong.com. So, who do you have after Tarasanko in this draft? I have Sagan. Not Hall. I did, I have Sagan and second, and then I have any Quiznizov third. Yeah, I have Hall next. Yeah, I have Hall 4th. Then Kizino Niderator.

Yes. I'm high on him. Yeah, I can't put Niederiderider ahead of Johanssen. I know what arguments you're going to make, but I... Elite. Two-way numbers. I can't do it. Hey, man.

Defensive numbers. Can't do it. Jeff Skinner? Yep. Glad to see that he's remorse. bat. Oh man. I'm so happy. Yeah. Part of the reason why I think Skinner is as low as he is,

is just because for me is just because the fact that he's, you know, lost a bit. It would, like, scary head injuries too. Not even like. Would he ever come back was definitely a real question, but. Yeah. No, but the forwards in his draft are very good. I mean, you know, we haven't even mentioned Tyler Toffoli,

Jane Schwartz. Yep. Mark Stone, we briefly mentioned. Yeah. It's Brock Nelson. well Brock Nelson's not even in consideration for me up at this high oh not this high but yeah he's how do you feel about Charlie Coyle I saw that Brock Nelson higher than um than he was drafted because he's drafted 30th and I think I have him in the low 20s how do you feel with Charlie Coyle

Charlie Coyle um he's an interesting player um I think I have him I have him 14th he just made it yeah I'm 12 he's one of those guys I guess like he he actually the county stats sort of started to finally catch up catch up last year But he was for years one of those guys for me where it's like when you watch him, especially if you catch him on the right night, you're like, this guy is so dominant. Like how is he, I would believe if I hadn't watched hockey before,

that Charlie Coil, based on what I'm seeing on the ice right now, is one of the best players in the league. And then you look at his actual numbers and you're like, what's going on here? You drafted out of the EGA, EJ HL. Yeah.

Well, he was in the, the Wob got him for Brent Burns. Or I guess the pick that was Charlie Cole. Maybe he would all have been drafted at that time. And then I have Michael Randlin closing out this list. But yeah, a lot of really good top six forwards. And then you get into like Klingberg, Fowler, and Falk, Pissick for a defenseman. But it's pretty weak.

I think that's going to be ever 2010. Yeah, let's go to 11. The very first draft that I personally started following leading up to the draft. See? This is not completely hindsight. Now this is where I'm starting to throw in. my own opinions from prior to the draft. This is a great segue.

We're actually a great tease because we're actually going to stop recording right now. Okay. And we're going to move this to part two of this podcast because we're already well over an hour. And I think if we drop like a two and a half hour podcast on people here, they might, their minds might explode. They might go crazy. So we're going to put a pin in it right here. You and I will keep talking.

But you guys, if you're listening to this, the first day it comes out, we'll probably have to wait a day. for part two of the show, but we'll do 2011 to 2015 on part two. So follow Garrett Hole on Twitter at Garrett Hole, and that's a wrap for now. The Hockey P.DOCAST with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovic and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockeypediocast.