The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 193: Back and Better Than Ever

Episode Date: September 20, 2017

If you could swoop in and take over the managerial duties of any NHL team of your choosing as currently constructed, which one would you prefer? How would you rank all 31 options available to you based on their desirability? These are questions Jonathan Willis joined the show to help answer.  5:40 Golden Knights 9:00 Red Wings 11:15 Canucks 15:30 Avalanche 22:30 Devils 27:00 Islanders and Bruins 33:00 Coyotes and Kings 40:30 Sharks and Panthers 47:00 Senators 51:50 Flames and Sabres 55:35 Rangers and Canadiens 1:02:00 The Top 15 1:06:00 Stars and Blackhawks 1:09:45 Wild and Blues 1:17:45 Jets and Blue Jackets 1:27:00 Flyers and Hurricanes 1:31:00 Capitals and Penguins 1:41:00 Ducks  1:45:20 Oilers 1:51:00 Predators 1:54:00 Leafs and Lightning Sponsoring today’s show is SeatGeek, which is making it easier than ever before to buy and sell sports and concert tickets. They’re giving our listeners a $20 rebate off of their first purchase. All you have to do is download the free SeatGeek app and enter the promo code PDO to get started. Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Are you ready for the most ridiculous internet sports show you have ever seen? Welcome to React, home of the most outrageous and hilarious videos the web has to offer. So join me, Rocky Theos, and my co-host, Raiders Pro Bowl defensive end, Max Crosby, as we invite your favorite athletes, celebrities, influencers, entertainers in for an episode of games, laughs, and, of course, the funniest reactions to the wildest web clips out there. Catch React on YouTube, and that is React. R-E-A-X-X. Don't miss it. This podcast episode is brought to you by Coors Light.

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Not only am I in the Hockey Piedocast not going anywhere, but we're officially now getting back to our regulars. schedule programming for the 2017-18 season. Apologies for taking some time off and going off the grid there, which evidently caused some consternation about the status of the show and what I was up to. I can't really get into the minutiae of it, but all you really need to know is that I'm back with Sports Night for another year now, which means the PDOCAST is here to stay. Hopefully this marathon show we have coming up here with PDO cast First Ballot Hall of Famer, Jonathan Willis will serve as a bit of an olive branch in helping make up for the past couple

weeks worth of shows we missed, as with all the other great preview content we've got planned between now and October 4th. I guarantee that between now and then, you're going to get sick and tired on me with all the podcasts and articles and videos and hopefully TV we've got going on. Trust me, as much as you miss listening to this thing, I miss recording it just as much myself. I've been binging on peekie blinders and how did this get made for the past few weeks, and it's been fun, but suffice to say I've been getting it. a bit stir crazy waiting for the go-ahead to get back to work. So what can you do to help out to make sure that this never happens again?

You can go rate and review the show on iTunes and leave us five stars and a positive comment. You can also keep downloading and listening and sharing with all your friends and family. Seeing the number of passionate fans of the show clamoring for new episodes during the break was really cool and rewarding, as was the slightly unhinged Reddit thread that I saw speculating about where I disappeared to. Anyways, I've kept you all waiting long enough for a new show. So let's just do this thing already. Producer Matt, hit the music. Regressing to the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey P.D.O. cast with your host, Dmitri

Filippovich. Welcome to the Hockey PEOCast. My name is Dimitri Philpovich. And joining me is my good buddy, Jonathan Willis. Jonathan, what's going on, man? Hey, Dimitri, you know, it's always fun to be here. Oh, man, is it fun to be here? It's, uh, we're, you know what, let's give the listeners a little kind of a behind. the scenes peak here. So this is our second try recording this intro. And not only, and I can't

even count how many times we've tried to do this episode over the past month or so, but, uh, various life events have gotten in the way and precluded us from doing so, but we are finally here. We're recording. And hopefully, I'm not speaking too soon and putting my foot in my mouth, but I hope there won't be any hiccups and we're going to have a fun show here. Yeah, it's, it's been, it's been very interesting because as your listeners will know, you're, you're extremely professional. You and I just, you know, bang these out. You, you, you've been, just hammering out podcasts with everybody all summer, it seems like. And this episode, I think it's cursed, Dimitri.

Yeah, yeah, it's seeming that way. But you know what? We're going to get over the hump here and we're going to make this work. And so the plan for today's show, I did give you some homework to prepare for this. And basically what we're going to do is we're going to go through the 31 NHL teams. Have you gotten used to saying 31 when you listed like that and not sticking to 30? Or is it like that thing where it's like every time in the new year, I'm still writing the previous year for the first three weeks of that year or so, something like that.

Not a word of a lie when I did this list. I only did 30 teams because I forgot Vegas was in the league, wasn't in, was in the league. But they're there now, yeah. But I had to, I had to find it, catch it on the second read through. Yeah, it's going to take some getting used to. So we're going to, we're going to go through the 31 teams and we are going to essentially kind of basically, if we could inherit right now any NHL team's roster. as I assume the GM or the person running error or whatever definition you want to give it, which ones we'd pick and we're going to go from, I guess, least favorable and we're going to

count it down to the one we'd want to take over the most. And we'll see how it goes. I'm sure that, you know, at least in terms of the least favorable teams, we're probably going to have quite a bit of agreement because it seems like there's a handful that stick out from the rest. But I'm sure in that middle tier, there's going to be a bunch of sort of disagreement and back and forth and it'll be fun to see where we differ and where we both agree. Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, so in terms of the worst rosters right now, and it's okay, so actually, before we get into it, let's go through some methodology here because the way I approach this was I'm looking at the active roster right now, and I'm also kind of considering, you know, where neither of you or I are big time prospect guys by any means, so I'm not necessarily evaluating the farm system as a whole, but I'm looking at sort of the top tier prospects that have maybe been drafted high on the draft up. past few years or guys that have really risen or fallen and I'm taking that into account. And I'm also maybe taking into account like the coaching staff as well. But that's obviously, you know, a very fluid situation for most teams. So it's mostly going to be the players that are in place and the contracts and sort of how much financial flexibility or room to operate you'd have if you were taking over that team on this date. Yeah, absolutely.

When I looked at it, I had two factors in mind. Well, really one factor, which was, you know, can I win a Stanley Cup with this? roster and if not now can I do it in the future so what I looked for was I imagined myself as a GM and said okay over the next 10 years which of these teams is going to give me the best chance at collecting the most championships and so I placed a high premium on elite talent whether that's on the roster or in the system and yeah that was that was my sorting so this is going to be let's let's kick it off here with 31 um is it going to be the aforementioned Vegas Golden Knights who aren't off to a good start in this podcast

considering you just admitted that you didn't even remember there in the league? Or is it going to be someone else? Because I think you could go either way. You know, you can make the argument for Vegas that there is this, I don't know, sort of honeymoon period here. And they do have a bit of flexibility, especially in terms of draft capital. They had three first round picks in their inaugural draft and a bunch of other depth. picks as well and they're going to have more picks in line for them in the coming years. So that's a positive. But obviously the roster itself is going to be, if your definition of trying to win a cup

pretty soon, it's obviously a ways away from that. So that definitely pushes them down this list. Yeah, I think it has to be Vegas. There are a couple of other teams on this list that make it competitive. But when I look at Vegas, I just think you're in for a five-year process, like minimum, right? Right. And those other. teams, if I were starting a five-year process today, even with the revamped expansion draft,

and I'm trying to build a cup contender, I think there are teams out there that have, I don't think there's another team out there that I would take lower than Vegas, just because Vegas doesn't have all those prospects percolating in the system already. To me, there's value in having a 19 or 20 or 20 or 21-year-old, even if you've only got one or two that are going to be really high-end guys, there's a lot of value in that. And Vegas just hasn't had a time to accrue those assets. that's yeah yeah that's true and i i guess the disappointing thing for me from my perspective is that it you know they didn't necessarily need to be 31 on this list like obviously their ceiling as a franchise right out of the gate is capped because of that starting point you alluded to but i feel like if they had

you know approached their expansion draft in a different manner and maybe you know taking some more assets that either had higher upside or or were more easily flippable in trades to come I'd be more excited on them. And, you know, that's, that's relatively speaking, like they probably would have been 29th or 28th on this list at best. But the fact that they, especially on the blue line, settled for some of these assets, which I guess they deemed sort of safe and conservative, really makes it tough to argue that they should be higher on this list than 31st.

Yeah, they did some things I liked. I liked how they handled Florida. I like that they got Chey Theodore. But, yeah, it's not a. it's a team that you know you kind of look at their expansion approach and and this policy of accumulating expensive defensemen and it kind of looks like they've burned a cap space and they're not going to get any kind of asset return for it yeah especially when when we were doing all those mock drafts before the expansion draft uh i think everyone was like oh well you know the goaltending of the defense is going to be actually very solid right out of the gate and might might be pie up there amongst their competitors and it really isn't so it's uh it's going to be it's going to be tough out of the gate for them but I guess they do have that honeymoon period and for their fans, that's going to buy them some wiggle rooms. So I have that to look forward to. So 30, let's go through the teams now that are firmly entrenched and have had a few years to build up their stock and obviously have failed

to do so, considering we're going to be discussing this early in the podcast. Who did you have here at 30 after Vegas? I'm interested to see if you agree. It's got to be Detroit, doesn't it? Well, there's two teams here that I think are interchangeable. But yes, Detroit, just based on, like, if you were taking over that team right now, there's a bunch of players you'd like to get off of the roster. The problem is that because of their contracts, you know, Ken Holland has sort of dug, the person that's going to be taking over for him a bit of a grave here where they're going to have a really tough time getting out of it. And it seems like their best bet is just biting the bullet and hanging tight for a few years

and letting those contracts come off the books before really, actually seriously considering what their team is going to look like the next time they're ready to compete. Yep, I completely agree. And the other thing I would add is I'm not sold that any of their young cornerstone guys are actually cornerstone guys.

Dylan Lark and Anthony Mather of very good players, but I don't know. I think they're more supporting pieces on a contender, even if they have really good development arcs going forward. Yeah, truly is jarring how, you know, how negative our outlook is for this team heading into 2017-18, considering the age of their players and the contracts they have on the books where there's certain teams in the league where you can justify them not being ready to compete right now

because they're going with a youth movement or they've really reset. But it seems like Detroit here is, you know, even based on their comments, it seems like they're not ready to kind of look in the mirror and take a critical look and admit where they are as a franchise in their current state. Instead, they're going to keep trying to kind of power ahead with this currently constructed roster, and it seems like that's not going to take them very far because there just isn't that driving talent that we've seen time and time again you need in this league to compete as a team.

Yep, that's really why I penalize them so steeply is they're not in a position to win the cup with the current core, and they haven't even begun amassing the next core, really. So they're so far back. And I think you could make a case that there may be even lower than Vegas, but I give them a nod because they do have some young talent there. Yes. Yeah, that's fair. So the team that I mentioned that I think is interchangeable with Detroit here are the Vancouver Canucks, who have actually, you know, made some positive strides over the past six months or so, basically right before the trade line. They made a few nice trades where they flipped rental pieces for future assets.

and I think their summer as a whole, you know, each move makes sense because they had money to spend and they spend it on guys who are actual NHL players who will help make their team more relevant in the short term and also potentially be assets that can be flipped at the trade deadlines in years that come. But at the same time, when you look at it as a whole, it just, you know, they're similar to Detroit and that they're not really going anywhere anytime soon. Yeah, I like their summer. and I think if I had to pick between the two, I prefer Vancouver's pool of young prospects and players.

I really like Bohorvatt. And they've got a bunch of guys, you know, Ollie O'Levy, Brock Bowzer, their last draft, Elias Pedersen. That's a good group. I don't think Jim Benning makes it through this rebuild cycle. I just can't imagine that happening because it's a work of a few years

and they're going to be further bogged down by, you know, contracts like the one that goes to Louis Erickson, like that. They made the switch this summer to doing what they needed to do. Like, I like the course that they've abruptly put themselves on, but they needed to do it two years ago. Yeah, it's tough, especially when you remember how well set up this team was as recently as, you know, five years ago or so. And I guess now they're sort of paying for some of those moves they made in some of those contracts. they signed and it's the kind of the life cycle of your NHL team in this cap system where you go for it and you hope you get it because the flags do fly forever but if you don't you don't all of a sudden that much to show for it and you're kind of you set your brand franchise back a few years

yeah that's just it and whoever inherits it is going to inherit you know like the roberto luongo cap liability and and when i look at that that to me i'm fine with it you know like you you took your shot at a cup and he was a key player and now you've now you have to pay and that's just the NHL cycle. So if you're in NHL, if you were running the Canucks right now, let's say you got the 30th pick or the 29th pick, I guess, now, of inheriting your franchise of choice and it was the Vancouver Canucks. What would you try to do this season?

Because obviously the big elephant in the room here is the fact that the Siddines are, have expiring contracts. And there's this dilemma where it's like, do you just acknowledge that they're obviously not worth, the money they're making and you're not sure if they're going to be back, but you have to just let them ride out their career here because of what they've meant to the franchise and how long they've been here and all that. Or do you try to kind of look hard at moving them and acknowledging that it might be tough to do so considering they're each $7 million cap hits

and you can't retain any salary because of past moves you've made? Yeah. I'm really cold-blooded about this stuff. So I am a believer in maximizing it maximizing the return if you possibly can. I think the problem is that where the Sadiens are in their career, you'd have to have buy-in from them, and that doesn't seem to be in the offing. Like, if you're another NHLGM trying to make a deal with Vancouver for the Sadiens, I don't know that, like, they're not the impact players they were.

I don't know that you want them if they're not committed to, to the move itself. Like, if they'd rather just stay in Vancouver and play out the last few years, then I wouldn't want to trade for them, really. Right. So I'd like to deal them as Vancouver's GM, but I don't know if it's a realistic possibility. Yeah. And what you could get back at this point and whether the, obviously get recouping some sort of

assets is back or valuable, but at the same time, there is that sentimental value that I'm sure that their current management group has to consider that they can't just approach it from that cold water of a perspective. Okay. So did we, did you have Vancouver after Detroit as the 29th or did you have someone else? I did. There's one, maybe two other teams I could have made a case for, but Vancouver and Detroit were always 29 and 30 on my list. Okay, we'll make the case for those two teams that change sure. Well, I have Colorado 28th, which I'm curious if you agree, because they do have some really good young players.

But the current roster is just such a disaster. If it's about placing this season, I don't know that I'd rather have Colorado's roster than Vancouver's or Detroit's. and the only thing that puts them ahead of those teams is the fact that they do have some really good young players that they uh in the system but i don't i don't think it's a good enough core to win with they've got a lot of work to do and um it reminds me a ton of edmonton like three years ago yeah and it's it the tough thing for them is that they have had a few years here where they've been picking high in the draft and you know um i love nathan mckenon still and i think that he could be a cornerstone player obviously he's going to need to be a a lot of help. But other than that, I mean, you know, they've got some nice pieces. I took a lot of flack for when I did my redraft with Garrett Hole recently. We were down on Miko Randton in a bit, or at least people thought we were, and I think they kind of missed what we were saying. I like him fine as a prospect, and he seems to be developing nicely, but he's not necessarily a type of guy that is going to, you know, rally, you're going to rally your franchise around and

build around. He seems like a bit more of a complimentary piece. And the blue line, I mean, wow, I'm looking on cap friendly right now. And like I know that, you know, there's going to be guys that come up and maybe an Andrei Marinov is probably likely to be on the team as opposed to what his current, you know, layout is of his contract on this website. But as of right now, they have four NHL defensemen listed on their depth chart, which is not the best spot to be in considering preseason's already started and we're about two weeks away from the regular season getting going.

Yeah. You can make a case that Colorado is doing, you know, what they should do, which is just play the kids and throw them into the fire, but I'm a big believer in the, what I'll call the Toronto model for all our Toronto listeners. And that means, you know, plugging in guys who can buy these kids a little bit of time

and who you can then flip for trade deadline assets and who keep your team from being a total embarrassment in the meantime. And Colorado doesn't have any of them. Yeah, and it's, it's unfortunately because I thought last summer actually, like I really like their summer from that perspective because they brought in, you know,

guys like Patrick Weircotch and Eric Shalina and, you know, even they, I think they had Joe Colburn on a two-year deal maybe and a few guys like that. And I thought, well, you know, these are seen like smart, low-risk gambles for them to take that they could potentially trade. And then all of those guys just fell so badly on their face and everything that possibly could have gone wrong last year in Colorado did obviously for them to have that historically bad season. And yeah, now it's uh it's they're they've got an uphill battle are you surprised that mat ducheshaun is still on this team uh yes i i am surprised um i was never you know one of the guys who was beating the trade matthusain jane trump because i i think he's he's useful he's still pretty young he like

but um just with as much smoke as there was regarding regarding that situation you would think that at some point we'd have some fire and we we just have not yet Yes. Yeah, I mean, he's, you know, he's 26, and he has two years left at 6 million per season. So he's a perfectly fine player to have on your team, even if you're not necessarily going for it right now, because it's not like he's expiring even this season, so you have to try and recoup something immediately for him. But at the same time, you know, there was that meme during Picture Day where he just looked like he was being held hostage, basically, and really did not want to be there. And some of his comments have been understandably lukewarm about the situation. and where he's at right now with the team. So it's just a tricky spot where it seems like they might have reached a point where it's hard to salvage that relationship. But at the same time, I'm with you where he's still a young and his prime player that is very effective and very fun to watch.

And I wouldn't trade him for 50 cents and a dollar just for the sake of getting him out of there because that is not a good way to run your team. So if we're not privy to what offers they've had and whether there's actual enticing deal as they passed up. And so I guess we just have to work under the assumption that they haven't, you know, no, no team's been willing to pony up what Matthew Shane is worth at this point. And that's why he's still on this team. Yeah. If I'm Joe Sackick, I'd much rather have Matt Dushan than be defending a bad trade. And if I'm Joe Sackick and I'm looking at the situation, I might be thinking myself, you know, what happens at the trade deadline this year? Like you come to the trade deadline,

Colorado, unlike Vancouver, has the ability to do retain salary transactions. You've got Dushan, where you can offer him not just for a run for this year, but all of next season under contract. So he's not really a rental, but you can kind of treat him like a rental. I think you can make a case that, like if you're gambling as to when the market for Matthew Shane is going to be the highest,

if he has any kind of start to the season, you might get more for him in February than you would have in June or July. Yeah. It's interesting because, you know, I think that it's safe to say that at least for, you know, the Vancouver's and Detroit's of the world, which we've already listed,

we're not too keen on their current management group and the direction they're headed in with their brain trust. I think with this Colorado Avalanche team, as weird as it is to say for a team that has been under so much scrutiny in the past few years and had that season they just had, like I still sort of like a lot of the thinking that they have in place. Like obviously they've made some PDO-Cast-friendly hires by bringing in a guy like Eric Parnas to help out with stuff. And, you know, at the trade line, they get a Sven Antrigal.

ghetto for pretty much nothing. You know, they take a chance on Nail Yakopov at under a million dollars for one season to see if they can potentially get something out of him, even as unlikely as it may seem at this point. You know, they basically just take on Colin Wilson because Nashville wanted to clear that space. I mean, they've made some smart moves. It's not like they're just making, you know, time and time again, these dreadfully short-sighted disastrous moves that are really caving them in. It's just that they haven't, they just had seemingly poor, and things haven't seemed to just come together for them the way that you'd hope. So hopefully they're able to turn that corner sometime here soon.

You can, yeah, I like some of the things they've done. But, you know, when I look at the things they have done, they kind of get lost between behind having, you know, four NHL defensemen on September 19th. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's not ideal, obviously. Well, hey, if you count the buyouts they're currently paying Brad Stewart and Franzawa Boscherman, they have six NHL defensemen on their books.

No, it's still four. Demetri. Yes, it's still four. Okay, so who is the other team other than Colorado that you were thinking in that Vancouver tier? This, this kills me to say it, because I don't know if I believe it, but New Jersey. Yeah, I think, I think they're clearly a step above Colorado, but I think they're a step

behind the next tier. Well, but, I mean, listen, being 27 on this list is not great by any means, but I think as recently as a year or two ago, they had a stretch. strong argument for being 30th in a 30 team league. They weren't even 31 teams at that point in time. So, I mean, at least it seems like they're on an upward trajectory, as slow as it may seem. Yeah, I agree. I think Ray Shero has done a good job since being put in charge, you know, generally speaking.

Yeah. I mean, obviously. And the Marcus Johansson trade was great. Yes. Yeah. Well, that's, and that's the thing, you know, around July 1st, especially we get around to this every time where fans try to justify their. teams making a signing by going, well, we had the cap space and, you know,

you, Cap Space isn't going to play on your third or second line. You need to spend it some way. And, you know, that's why we overpaid this, you know, menial player for some reason. And I always make the point of cap space actually is an asset because teams time and time again will get themselves into a bind and you want to be the one there to pounce and take advantage of that. And the Marcus Johansson trade was a fantastic example where they got a really, really good player for an exorbitantly, just like a ridiculously cheap price just because Washington had to make that trade and had no other choice.

And that's a good spot to be in if you're not going anywhere anytime soon. Yeah, absolutely. I was actually, I wanted to get, I wanted to be confident in New Jersey because I like a lot of what New Jersey's done. But, you know, Travis Ajax getting hurt in August, it's hard to imagine them even having, you know, kind of a Cinderella run this season. Yeah. And I really like Corey Schneider. always have. He's coming off a bad year and he's 31 and it, but they, they were starting from kind of empty on the prospect pool side and they do have some good pieces now and I do think

they're getting better, but it's still, you know, this is a team. The problem with being Detroit is that you're just at the start of the process that New Jersey is now two or three years into. Right. And New Jersey still has a long way to go. Yeah. No, it's, uh, yeah, it takes a while, It takes a while to get back there. And, you know, we just mentioned how Colorado has four NHL defensemen on their list. New Jersey has more of them, but I'd argue that they don't even have four NHL defensemen right now on their roster. I mean, it's pretty tough beyond Andy Green. And I love Damon Severson, who they recently locked up long term and did the right thing with.

It's pretty tough. I mean, we'll see if Will Butcher pans out and lives up to the hype that so many on-draft, college-first. college free agents before i am have failed to do so but yeah beyond that it's uh like ben jell lovejoy dalton proud uh it's john moore yeah it's it's not ideal i mean they paid a weird price for miracle muller i know that he was a former first round pick and and had a certain prospect pedigree but based in some of the other prices guys were going for it felt like an overpay at the time so yeah it's um it's not great. I view the Corey Schneider thing as, like, if I was inheriting this team, I view that as a massive plus because I do still think that he's an asset that they could recoup some nice value for.

So while I don't think that Corey Schneider is going to be on this New Jersey Devils team by the time they are ready to compete, I think that what they get back for him very well could and could be at least some nice complimentary pieces. So at least they have that going for them along with, you know, the guy like Taylor Hall and recently drafted in eco-histure and some of the other recent picks they've made in the past. Yeah, and you can make a case that, you know, if they're, if they're two years away from being on a playoff run, maybe Schneider is there for the early, like getting to the playoffs, I should say, not going on a deep run, but maybe Schneider is there for the early stages. Yeah, I think that's fair.

Okay, so after New Jersey, we're getting into the top 25 here. Well, actually, 26. Who do you have in this next tier? Do you have a, is it one team that sticks out or is it, do you have a couple of teams that are kind of lumped together? I don't, okay. When I did this, this was the pick I was dreading when I was going over this because the next 15, 16 teams to me, I don't think there's a big gap. I don't think there's one team that stands out from the pack.

I've rearranged this list three or four times and had just massive swings. I'd love for you to go first on the 25th pick, honestly. If you force me to, I will, but I'd love to hear who you have. Well, I can do that, but I should say that. you know, we're already 25 minutes in here, and we've handled the five least desirable teams in our estimation in the league. So at this pace, it's going to be a very, very long show. So we should keep that in mind as well. So I'm cool with tiering teams here or maybe tossing out a few names and then kind of seeing where the discussion takes us as opposed to, you know,

dissecting each team one by one very closely at a microscopic level. okay so so so so can just just just throw a few few of the names here where what are the teams that are bugging you let's let's talk this out this is a bit of a therapy session as much as anything for you the new york islanders bother me they're the team i have at the bottom of this tier and mostly it's because i do not like all their um salary cap problems i don't like andrew ladd i don't like johnny boychuk i don't like k c zizicus to me they have a whole bunch of cap liabilities and we don't know what's going to happen with John Tavares and their young guys are not that impressive. Yeah.

Yeah. And the John Tavares thing is a massive sticking point here because if you were inheriting this team, it'd be a pretty precarious time to do so because you don't really know if that decision has already been made internally or, you know, with John Tavares' camp, whether he will be staying. or whether they'll be going and what you could get for him in a trade. And it seems like there are at a bit of a crossroads here where, you know, if things do work out here and Tavares stays, all of a sudden, you know, I think they move up this list a bit because they're at least competitive right now. I don't think this is a Stanley Cup roster by any means, but there's teams that are worse off. But, yeah, if Tavares is going to leave or if you're going to have to trade him and not get much back in return,

turn, then all of a sudden things become pretty bleak because you're basically resetting the clock here and you don't have much to show for the past, what, six, seven years of this Tvera's era. So it's a pretty tough spot to be in in that regard. Yeah, I think there's a case that there could be a coaching bump here. I'm not a fan of with Jack Capuano's been doing for several years now. But I think just the cap liabilities are decisive for me. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fair. Okay. So, so the, Islanders. Yeah, it's going to be interesting here because we're getting into the point on this list where, you know, the first five teams we've mentioned are pretty clearly not going to be making any noise this season and have a ways to go. We're going to start getting into teams now where they might actually be playoff teams this year or at least be very competitive, but because of their current contracts and the way things are looking moving forward, they might be getting pushed down this list. Right. And the Islanders are a prime example of that.

who so list some other names from me. Who do you have after the Islanders? Boston. It's in here. Yeah. Well, when I was giving that description of teams that are going to be competitive

this year but are in tough financial straits moving forward, I was actually I was clicking on the Boston team page while I was saying that. So I'm glad you said it first. Yes, I like you that you have me out front here to draw your fire.

And there's a lot of, the problem is, There's a lot of stuff I like about Boston's roster. I like a lot of their young players. The Dougie Hamilton trade to me is maybe the dumbest thing an NHL team has done in the last five years. It's incredible the difference between where Boston is versus where they might be if they had Hamilton anchoring the blue line. But right now they're putting so much weight on Sedano Chara and that cannot continue. And do respect to, you know, Brandon Carlo and to be. to a greater degree, probably Charlie McAvoy, but I just don't see the internal replacement.

Well, I mean, when you list like the top 10 dumb things NHL teams have done over the past, whatever, five years or maybe even the past decade, like how many of those are Bruin-centric? Because I would say the Tyler Sagan trade, especially considering they literally have nothing to show for it at this point, is up there as well. I mean, they do have that glorious YouTube video of their front office justifying why they're making the move. So I guess we have we have we have that but the Bruins themselves don't have much to show for it anymore. Yeah this is this was a they haven't done a terrible job of adding talent to the system despite some really I'm goofy drafts but they're at the tail end of a of a

cycle and it's it's just hard to imagine them continuing as as like a high level team for a long period of time going forward. Yeah. It's tough having them solo down this list, though, because the top of their roster is still so good. So it's like you don't, you got to give that some credit. And finally, you know, they came to their senses and got David Pasternak under contract for long term at a reasonable price. Yeah. Yeah, very good. I mean, under $7 million. And he's, you know, even acknowledging the concerns about how good he might individually be just because of who he plays with. It's pretty clear that he's an elite scoring talent and you have to pay for that in this league and he's still 21 years old. So it's a it's a no-brainer from their perspective. It's crazy

that it took as long as they did. But I guess all as well, that ends well. And you know what? You've got the leverage. You can afford to wait with an RFA. Yep. That is definitely true. So yeah, we have the Bruins and the Islanders here. I think that's perfectly reasonable. Yeah, we're getting into a tough spot here where there's, uh, I feel like we could list the next 15 teams and you could basically just flip them back and forth. I don't know. Like who do you have next year? I mean, I feel like if we're discussing these teams like the Bruins and the Islanders, do you have the Kings coming up soon?

I do have them coming up soon. The next pick for me, there's two radically different kinds of teams that are in contention for this pick. And that's young teams with just terrible. rosters in the here and now. And then that's old teams that are just coming to the end of the cycle. And I don't have Los Angeles quite here, but they're only a few spots up. Okay. So who do you have here?

Arizona. Yeah. But I mean, it's pretty good for them that. Oh, yeah. Look at where they are compared to where they were two years ago. Yes. And I think it's a good time to talk about this because they obviously just recently made the Jason DeMurz trade.

And, you know, all of a sudden, they have not only an end. NHL Blue Line, but an actual pretty good one. I mean, they've clearly made that a big, you know, point of emphasis for them to address over the past year or so. And, you know, now OEL has help in the form of Nicholas Jalmers and Alex Golodgowski and Jason Demers. And, you know, when Chick-Chikrin comes back from injury and they took that flyer on Adam Glendening, who could seem to be a useful third-pairing guy. So all of a sudden, that Blue Line's rounding out and we know that they have a ton of young forward talent that they have crewed through the draft process. So, you know, if they can get league average goaltending from Rantara or even slightly above, they could be sneaky competitive next

year. I'm not saying they're going to, you know, push one of those in, uh, insrenched teams in the Pacific division out and all of a sudden make this long playoff run, but they're definitely not going to be the laughing stock of the league anymore. And there is a, there's a case to be made that there's some certain value in that, especially for a team that's in the, in the financial position that the coyotes are in. Yeah. I, I, I, I, love their summer. I love going out and getting Jolmers. I love getting Dermers. I love getting Derek Stepan. These are, and to me, this is one of the things that you see with the public conversation about rebuilds. It's conventional wisdom that you want to tear things to the ground.

I don't think that's true. You don't want to be crazy, crazy good. You don't want to be crazy stocked with expensive veterans, but you do want to have NHL talents in your system the whole time because otherwise you fall so far. You can't get back up. Arizona's done a really good job of revamping that blue line. And, you know, even beyond the top four, like, I don't mind Kevin Connettin, Luke Shen, as a third pairing, not even a little bit. And when Chikrin, you know, gets in there, that one of those guys will be on the bench. And I'm not a big Glendening guy, but he's in the mix, too.

Yes. Yeah, they're in good shape. I like them a lot. It's a shame that they're here. It's a testament to good management that they've climbed this high. But, you know, at the end of the day, I look at them and I go, well, they're not there yet. They're getting there, but they're not there yet. This could still go sideways.

So I bump them a little bit. And they don't have a chance of winning a cup this year. Yeah. But at the same, like, it's one of those things where, you know, I'm normally, definitely the guy that doesn't like to see teams half-ass to rebuild and just try it up a Band-Aid fix. And I don't think this is it. Like, it's, you know, a lot of these guys they have bought in are in the prime of their

career right now or somewhere around it. So it's not like they're bringing in all these just, you know, aging veterans that are going to be useless a year or two from now. Like, it seems like when they are ready to actually be legitimately good, these guys are still going to be productive for them. And they are in that unique spot we mentioned where just getting a certain level of respectability means quite a bit for them. So it's tough to say anything other than positive things about what they've done this summer and where they're headed moving forward. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I think we have to put the Kings at this point at 20s.

I have the Kings next. I can't hold off any longer. I've been considering them for a few spots now. I honestly think you can make the argument that they're going to. They should be below the Bruins. I'd have them above the Islanders, I guess. But, man, like, if you're talking about how long it's going to take this team to compete again for a Stanley Cup, or, you know, if you were taking over this team, how few moves you'd have to make to get yourself into that position,

like, it's the job Dean Lombardi left here for Luke Robitaine and Rob Blake is not, enviable because they have so much money tied up to guys who are on the wrong side of 30 or on the wrong side of their peak and I think they're going to be competitive and annoying to play against again and they're going to be atop the league in terms of possession. But it's aside from bringing in my Camilleri for that ridiculous one year, one million dollar deal, which they locked into, it's it's tough to see how this team is going to be able to generate enough offense to get over that hump and finally jet turned some of that some of those shot attempts into goals and if they can't do that as good as their top end of their roster is i just it it seems like they're kind of stuck in the mud here

a little bit as a franchise yeah i wanted a more active summer from them than we got i think they need well they've got a bunch of stuff that they need and i don't see why you don't go for it now because you know the the bulk of your roster is at an age where you're just not going to be competitive in the future and there's no getting out of that. I don't think, I don't see how you do it. Maybe Ron Hextall could come in and move out three bad contracts and you can be okay, but it's going to be very tough and you might as well just go for it now. And they didn't do that to the extent that I'd wanted. Having said that, they climb this high on my list just because I can't honestly say there's no chance they win a Stanley Cup next year. I don't think they will, but I can't say that it's

absolutely out of the question. I don't see where the offense comes from, but you make a couple of good moves and you're kind of in the mix again i think right well that's the luxury that them and the bruns have in terms of uh the star talent they have up front uh at the top of the roster i should say where like that's the hard part and then accumulating the complementary pieces around them is what's ultimately going to push you over the top and that's easier said than done but we've seen it time and time again where maybe all of a sudden they they fall into uh you know a trade that works out for them and that's easier to do that's easy to do that's not that's them and they get a Jeff Carter when we didn't think they could. And all of a sudden, we have to

readjust our expectations and our ceiling for them. I mean, listen, like the Copa-Tar, Carter, Tafoli, top of their roster up front, and then obviously Dowdy, Mazin and Martinez on the blue line. Like, that's a really good starting point for them. Man, there's also so many, like, why are Trevor Lewis and Kyle Clifford locked up for the next three terms on this, for the next three years on this team? Like, stuff like that is just, is so puzzling to me. It's a lot. you win cups with fourth liners, Demetri. That's how you win cups. Yeah, you got to reward those guys. You got to show Trevor Lewis how much he meant to your cup runs by giving him a long-term deals. It's just the way. It's the way of the NHL.

If we're going to give Dean Lombardi a nickname, it probably should be loyalty contract. Dean loyalty contract, Lombardi, because he does so many things well as a GM, and he just, you know, he needed to be cold-blooded here, and the Kings could have kept contending for another five years, and he did it. Yeah. I guess it's not all negative because they did. get the Foley and Pearson under contract for very good deals. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, they did win Stanley Cups. Yes.

But they're paying for it now. Yes, yes, that's true. Okay, so we, the Kingsburg 23rd on our list. The sharks kind of have to move in lockstep with them, don't they? Yes. I like, but yes, but I think that, uh, I think there's a bit of a gap there because I, I like the sharks more at this season. I like the sharks more moving forward as well.

I guess we should say that, you know, maybe life after Joe Thorne will not be as smooth of a transition and we'll have to have this conversation again. But, yeah, I don't know. I like the sharks team more at least heading into this season, wouldn't you say? Yeah, yeah, going into this year, I prefer them, but I don't know what this team looks like post-Joe Thornt. I don't know what Joe Pavelsky looks like post-Joe Thorne.

I don't trust, I don't think Logan Couture is the guy to lead a Stanley Cup contender. What about young 33-year-old Joe Pavelsky? Yes, yes. Well, it's Logan's team now, Demetre. Yes, that's true. That's true. I love Brent Burns. I love Mark Edward Blasick.

There's a lot of things I like about the roster, but I don't, realistically think they're going to win a cup they're kind of in a very similar boat to the kings and you know the long-term picture is pretty ugly you got to get as much as you can out of this group because it's going to be bad yeah that is true um yeah well i i would say the the caveat is if i were taking over this team right now i would trade brent burns immediately so i guess that's that's not maybe realistic but uh yeah that's i i think i that's what i would do if i would do if i would That would be my first order of business if I were taking over the San Jose Sharks,

and obviously that would cause some serious waves in NHL circles. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty tough to move a 32-year defenseman with a 32-year-old defenseman with an eight-year contract. Yeah, well, he did just win the Norris, though, I'm sure that. I'm sure someone could talk themselves into it. Oh, sure, sure, sure. We did just see Shea Weber get traded, so. Yeah, but that to me is an argument that you're kind of in favor of burning it down.

But, yeah, I think I generally have, right? The future is much more promising. You've got to retain that hope. Yeah. Yeah, I'm okay with having the sharks here, although I think I like them more than most people do heading into this season. Who did you have? I'm at the point now where I'm in that, you know,

cluster where I have a bunch of teams. Yeah, I think the sharks are fine here. You know, a team I think we need to start discussing here, that is very disappointing because as recently as a year ago, we would have been much higher on them. And they have a glut of young, interesting players. But for a variety of reasons, I think they wouldn't be a very favorable team to take over right now. And that would be the Florida Panthers. Yep.

They're, yep. Because listen, I think for, and justifiably so, we've sort of tried to keep politics. of the discussion here and um you know financial matters because that stuff can change obviously and you have to work with what you've got but i mean the summer that they've had here just because of trying to shed money uh is it's pretty pretty bad man and it's it's tough to rationalize it and it's tough to look at it in any way other than disappointing because we were very high on this team and now there's much less reason to to be so even though they do still have a handful of very young players who are under 25 years old and

I don't want to see those primes wasted because of this but they're definitely not moving in the right direction based on the recent moves they've made. Yeah, they've done some smart things too in fairness to them. I think bringing Rubidim Verbata in was a good low-cost bet. Evjani Dadov is a really interesting player to me. I'm glad he's in the league. So there's a few things you can point at, but to me it goes back. to the expansion draft, they did some terrible things at the expansion draft.

I don't think any team handled it worse than Florida did. And they've, to me, they've just been shooting themselves in the foot. And it feels like Dale Allen's coming in and it's, and just because there's such a disagreement in which direction they should go, to me, they committed to taking a certain course and they had to see it through. And because they didn't see it through and they're trying to make this mid-course change, it's going to cost them. Is there going to be anything more annoying this season than if the Panthers start off the season on a PDO Bender and won a bunch of games?

Oh, no, that'll be fun. The nice thing about Florida is you don't hear from a lot of Florida fans. Yeah, but the media is going to be just unbearable. The media has been pretty unbearable about Florida for ages. And I don't want to, I just, I don't understand. where the love for Dale Tallon's approaches. It's like Dale Tallon had how long in Florida and did very little. Like he did assemble a good young core by being terrible forever.

And then he brought in guys like Dave Ballin to put him over the top. He thought their 2014, 2013, 2014, whichever year, he thought that run was for real and when it obviously wasn't. Florida's been badly managed for a while and it looked like they're coming out of it now I don't think they are but having said that they still got some very good young players you know you get Barkov and Hubert O and I know Arianeckblad's contract's a little bit controversial

but I think most people are still very high on him this is a team I think you could do things with yeah no definitely I'm just not convinced that they will yes yeah there isn't uh they haven't inspired much confidence lately and listen uh the next time someone tries to tell you that we've gotten so much smarter as a hockey community and figured everything out and you can't dupe teams or with shooting percentage spikes anymore. Just look at the career of one Riley Smith and the years he has been moved by teams

and the years he's been rewarded with contracts. And it's a pretty interesting tale that teams might still not fully understand how shooting percentage works. So it's an interesting tale to discuss another day. So we're getting into the top 20 here. The Panthers were our 21st team. Who should we discuss next, Jonathan? I have Ottawa.

And this was hard for me because I love Eric Carlson. I absolutely believe he's a cornerstone defenseman for a Stanley Cup winning team, but I just don't see much else on the roster. Yeah, and I guess it'll be a good test if he misses the start of the year to see what there really is behind him. Because it could get Cody Cici. It couldn't be a problem. Yes, it's true. true. Yeah, it's, man, that blue line.

Dionne of Cody, Cici, Mark Borietzky, Johnny O'Dea, Chris Wyatman, Freddie Clayson. And the last two are actually intriguing youngish players, I guess Chris Wythman's 27 already at this point. But yeah, the, man, it's going to be pretty tough. They're going to, you know, fortunately they have good goaltending. And I think Craig Anderson remains one of the most underrated goalies in the league, so it's quite possible that they'll stay afloat. But, yeah, without Eric Carlson there, it should be fascinated to see how, you know, competent they really are because it could make a I think everything he did in the playoffs is one thing

but I think the start of this season could be like the the best sort of he's the most valuable player in the league case he could make if things really go off the rails without him. Well and they're primed for it because Ottawa was just winning an insane number of one goal games last year and yeah it's going to be a I'm not optimistic about the start of their year but you know what I thought they were going to fade late last season so maybe somehow they hang on. I don't see how they do it without Carlson. Yeah. Do you want to, um, is there anything we should say about, uh, everything that's going on with Clark MacArthur? It's, it's really crappy. As a fan of him as a player and obviously just of,

of humans in general, like it's always really tough to see stories like that. But the sort of, uh, the sketchy, uh, potentially even malpractice you could call it involved in, in playing him in those playoffs when it's, people had their reservations and now we see the, uh, the, uh, the, the, of that, it's pretty tough. It's sort of everyone that was being cynical at the time was kind of pointing to that, but it's really annoying that it actually did wind up working out that way, where we might not see them on an NHL ice surface anymore. It's tragic.

Yeah, it is. It's very tragic. Okay, so we have Ottawa at 20. You know, at least a good thing with Ottawa, I will say, I'm looking at their team right now, aside from Bobby Ryan and I guess Dionne Fonof, who are. Somehow both making north of $7 million for the next four seasons, which is insane. Other than that, yeah, not a lot of bad contracts.

In fact, you know, Mike Hoffman won a great deal. Derek Brassar, two more years of $5 million. They're going to have to pay Mark Stone and Kyle Turus after this season, which could change things. But, I mean, they do have a lot of flexibility here, which is a good thing. And they do have a couple of top prospects that could conceivably make the team and also make an impact this season. season. So you got to account for that as well. So as much flack as we get for, you know, hating on Ottawa and then proving all of us wrong last season. Like I'm, I'm perfectly fine with this team. I'm not head over heels of all of them, but I'm kind of, I guess, a bit more

lukewarm event than anything. Yeah, but Carlson's going to be out. Yeah, but I mean, we think that Carlson. He'll come back. And look, Eric Carlson is the kind of guy who warps the parents of NHL franchises and everybody around him because he's just that good. I don't know where he ranks on an overall list of the NHL's best players, but it's certainly top five, and probably that's a very conservative number. That to me is the primary value of this franchise. You take Carlson away, things are bad. You have Carlson there.

You build a winner around him. Yeah, I mean, listen, we have Ottawa here at 20, and I think if you replace there Carlson with even like a fourth defenseman, a decent guy. Let's say like a Jason DeMers or something. I think I'd have the senators in that Canucks Red Wings tier, maybe slightly ahead of them, but they'd be down there in the bottom three or four. So that's everything.

But other than that, yeah. Of course. They're right in there with New Jersey, I think. Yeah, it'd be very bleak. So, yeah, Carlson is very, very good. Okay, so we're inside the top 20 now. Who do you have coming up here? I think we're going to reach a bit of a gridlock here where it's going to be just a handful of teams and we don't want to offend anyone because seeing someone's 19th versus 14th sounds like a big disparity but in reality it's really not at all.

I love pretty much all the teams in this range. I've got Calgary and Buffalo is my next two and I keep trying to push them higher and I just can't quite do it. I really like both teams. Yeah. Well, Buffalo had a you know, they haven't. done anything for a handful of weeks now, so maybe the recency bias isn't in play, and, you know, Arizona is getting a lot of love now. But, I mean, Jason Bottero coming in in his first summer, I pretty much liked every single move they made. And it's sort of that Arizona thing where, especially on the blue line, it was just, it was so bare bones and so putrid that just bringing in NHL players is going to have an immense impact on this roster. You know, I'm not a huge Marcos Scandella fan by any means, but just based on who he's replacing him and Nathan Boyu,

it's such an upgrade that you have to commend them for the summer they've had. Yeah, you do. And they do have some very good young players. I mean, obviously, Jack Eichel makes, he's a phenomenal talent. I docked Buffalo in large part because they have a ton of ugly contracts. Zach Bogosian, that's a terrible deal. Matt Moulson, that's a terrible deal. and Kyle Ocposo is one of those deals that's going to be good now.

But if you're looking at sort of the competitive arc of this franchise and you look at the terms on Ocposo's deal, I'm really nervous about it two years out. So there's a lot of stuff I don't like. Having said that, I'm a huge fan of Ryan O'Reilly. Love him. It's insane to say, but he's still, you know, his peak years. They've got a ton of good young players,

and they do seem to be in the right direction. Yeah, no, I agree with that. I'm definitely a fan of what they have building there, and we'll see where that takes in the season. Yeah, Calgary is interesting, you mentioned, because when I was putting this list together myself, I have them in this range. I think I have them 15th of mine,

and I feel like I like them more than that, but then you just look at the other teams, and it was really tough to justify having them much higher, or just having someone to kick out of that group ahead of them, to push them up above them. So it's like, it's really tough. Yeah, the argument I think against Calgary is just that they don't have a driver up front who I think is a, you know, well, a Jack Eichael-like player.

You know, like I like Johnny Godreau. I go back and forth on Sean Monaghan. I like some of the guys they have, but they're going to win based on their blue line and I just don't know if they have the firepower. Yeah, that blue line is pretty damn good though. yes it is um yeah if you're if you're ranking the top top blue lines in the league i mean obviously uh you know anaheim and nashville are always on the top of that discussion i guess like you have to start considering the flames up there as well right i mean and would you put them ahead

of either of those two or do you think it's sort of just like a tier of three there with those top three uh yeah i think it's a tier i i don't know how i'd rank it I'd have to think about that one. They're all really good. Well, coming next week on the Hockey-Ocast, it's Demetri Phil Povic and Jonathan Willis, ranking the top 31 blue line groups. Colorado, not looking good for you.

Sorry. You know what? I guess the blue line is pretty important because I think this list would look fairly similar, fairly similar if we were ranking the top blue line groups. I think so. I guess Calgary would be a lot higher, but most of other teams would be down this list.

Yeah, okay. So Calgary, Buffalo. low. Do we need to start considering the New York Rangers at some point here? I was just going to say my next two teams are Montreal and the Rangers. Both of those superstar goal-tending driven teams. I like the balance of New York's roster a little bit better than I like Montreal's, but I like Price's age a lot more than I like Lundquist. Yeah. And I think New York was definitely helped by the fact that they were able to get Shatt and Kirk on that team-friendly deal and bringing back Brendan Smith, because

all of a sudden now that top four with McDonough and Shea, obviously rounding it out, looks good. And yeah, that step-end trade was interesting because you don't normally see a team that is in the competitive state. The Rangers are right now making a move like that where they get a first-round pick and Anthony DiAngelo, who's an unproven wildcard defenseman for a good goalie and, you know, a top-sex center for sure. And at the same time, I do like that. this rangers team and it seems like every year we go through this uh discussion of oh man they're in you know they're in financial hell how are they going to make this work and then every year they somehow find a way to to finagle their way around it and make it work so um yeah i think they're in

a decent spot here i mean i like a lot of their players obviously and it's just a matter of i think if i was taking over this team i would make sure that the coach plays the guys i want to play in the spots i wanted to play in because if their roster is optimized in terms of usage uh ceiling is pretty high for them, actually. So Mark Stalls on your first pairing then. Oh, yeah, you got to have a shot blocker out there. I mean, they're really going to miss the presence of one Dan Gerardy, so you need to account for that. Yep.

But yeah, I mean, it's a lot of, especially like, I mean, up front, Rick Nash is making 7.8 the season, but he's coming off the books. And then after that, Mika Zbinijad is their highest paid forward, and he's making 5.35 per. A Zuccarello deal is steel. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's looking at it. And I love Zimaniad.

I just thought we were getting into the riffing on the great deals in New York. Yeah. And they have J.T. Miller and Kevin Hayes coming up on RFA deals after this season, and they're going to have to make them decisions on guys like that. But for this coming season, they have some really good deals and a bunch of very good players. And I think if Lundquist proves that last year was a bit of a blip in the radar and maybe he's not at his peak performance anymore, which is reasonable considering the miles and the age. But if he can bounce back a little bit, all of a sudden, this team looks very good to make another,

you know, very competitive run heading into the next season. Yeah, I think the one negative I'd say about New York, obviously I like them a bunch because I have them this high. But the one negative is you can make a case depending on what Lundquist looks like that they don't win a cup in the next two years. And if they don't, they, yeah. So it's a difficult situation, but they're very good team. And yeah.

Yeah. I think, yeah, that's definitely the risk you take on. But having to just having that chance, and it's not even, you know, it's not even a lottery ticket. It's a very legitimate chance. I, you kind of have to take it now and then try to deal with, deal with the consequences later. I think I think I have the Rangers ahead of the Canadians. Like, I like tearing them like that back to back. But the Canadians, man, it's, I just, it's, it's going to be so fascinating to see with them because for a while now they've had the benefit of, you know, their two top players in Carrie Price and Max Patcheretti making well below market value and what they're actually worth.

And, you know, after this season, the price contract's going to kick in. And after the following season, they're going to either have to pay Max Perretti or let him walk. and they're not going to have that luxury anymore and it's going to be much tougher for them to fill out that rest of that roster without the benefit of that. Yeah, absolutely. They're in a tough spot.

To me, they kind of look a little bit like a team that went all in on Shea Weber this year and, you know, that's the justification for the Weber's of Andeal, right? Which you knew we were going to talk about when we mentioned Montreal. But they do have kind of an older core. Like, do you respect to Duran and Galcenaic

and some of the other younger guys they have on the team. There are a lot of well-paid older veterans on this club, and I don't know that, I mean, because they have carried price, I'm not saying they can't win the Stanley Cup, but it's tough to make a case for them to come out of the east, and if they don't, they could be in trouble going forward. Yeah, well, it's just a matter of that depth again, right, where it's like the top of the top and other roster is great, and beyond that, it's a lot of question marks, and there's certain guys I like more than others, but it's, it's disappointing. because they haven't optimized it.

And things, we could be shining a much more positive light on them if a few different things had gone down. But unfortunately, they've really saddled themselves with a handful of unfortunate contracts. And that, you know, I guess it speaks to the star power of their team that we have them here, what, 16th or 17th on this list, just based on the fact that there's not that much happening beyond those guys. So, all right, Jonathan, we still need to do our top 15.

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All you have to do to redeem that is just download a CKie cap, enter the promo code PDO, and you get your 20 bucks. It's that simple. That's promo code PDO for $20 off your Fiercy geek purchase. And with that, let's get back to the show. All right. So let's get into the media of this thing here where it's the top 15. And there's a lot of teams here I'm excited about and that I would be very, very happy to take over

because there's so many good pieces already in place and so much potential for even more intriguing moves in the weeks, months, and years to come. So it's tough because it's really jam-packed here. Like I think that as much as we made it seem like it was nitpicking in the picks boat leading up to this, it's going to be much more so here. And it's going to be a lot of personal preference. How do you want to get into this? How do you see the next couple teams breaking down? I've got Winnipeg next. Is that anywhere close to what you have next?

Because I completely agree that these guys are jam-packed. see i i did a you know potentially different thing than you did here in terms of ranking these top teams where then my next handful of teams are actually the ones that i think are going to be very good next season um but don't have as much flexibility moving forward and especially don't have as much youth uh it seems like those are two things that i really prioritized on this list which kind of might fly in the face of what we talked about earlier. It might be a bit counterintuitive considering we were bumping a team. Like the Rangers up to 16th just because we think their window for the next two seasons is wide open.

But like I have, I had like the Dallas stars here, for example, where I really like them this year. And they're going to be really fun to watch. But I think that they could also assuming that everything gels under Ken Hitchcock and they get a better bout of health than they had last year, I think they could be one of the best teams in the Western Conference. The thing is, though, is, like, I don't love much on this team, especially financially moving forward. It's a lot of question marks, and it seems like a lot of the moves they made this year was Jim and Ile kind of acknowledging last year was a disaster, and he probably can't afford to have too many more seasons like that before he starts being on a hot seat or potentially being replaced. So he's just going to go for it now with this team he has, and I commend him for it because, they definitely got better this season and it's going to be interesting to see how it all comes

together. But moving forward, I'm not necessarily very high on them as an organization. You know what? I had Dallas a couple spots higher, but you're kind of selling me on it. And the reason you're selling me on it is because there's so many things that could go wrong within their current window. Right. Ben Bishop, to me, is a real gamble. Their defensive core as a whole, John Klingberg's on a fantastic contract and should be good for a while. They've got some good young defensemen both on the roster and in the system. But if you're looking at them as, and I think you have to when you look at the way the team is structured, I mean, Tyler Sagan's only 25, but a lot of their players are older.

If you're looking at them as a team that's going to do something in this immediate window, that blue line's not good enough. It doesn't have enough. And do respect to Mark Motha, but it didn't do enough in the offseason to upgrade it, if that's what you're looking for. And understandably, they may not be. They may be playing the long game with their young defensemen. But I guess they're a team that's kind of trying to have it both ways.

And if things don't work out here, it could be very difficult for them. Yeah. Yeah, that was sort of my line of thinking. Like, I'm high on them for sure. So I don't want to make it seem like me having them at 15th. Is an indictment on the summer they had or their prospects heading at the next season? I just think that there's a lot of question marks there. and that's something that, you know,

if you were taking over that team, that kind of uncertainty would make me pause a little bit, whereas some of these other teams were about to discuss might be more set moving forward. I had the Chicago Blackhawks next. Yeah, I had, so I mentioned Winnipeg, but the team right after Winnipeg to me was Chicago, which I hate putting there, but I don't get,

I don't see a way around it. Yeah, yeah, I had reservations about doing this because I actually started considering them a few spots, before even and just out of out of out of the respect to what they've done in the past handful of years and the caliber of their star players I gave them I bumped them up a few spots but I mean if you even wanted to argue that they should be like right there with with the montreal's and the new yorks of the world new york rangers of the world like I'd have no issue with that either because some of the contracts they have in the books right now are are cringe worthy to say the least yeah

And that Jolmersen tried the summer that. That bugged me. I just, I look at the way they're structured and you, and I really like the brand and sod mood for a bunch of reasons, but I look at the way they're structured and I go, how can you trade that guy right now? Because your best chance to win a Stanley Cup is this year. And it's going to be worse the year after that, worse the year after that. And at some point it's going to just diminish into nothing. Patrick K. and Jonathan Taves were both incredible players, both approaching 30, both on massive deals. Brent Seabrook, Duncan Keith, both into their 30s and Seabrook already.

I think we've seen the drop off. Corey Crawford's in his early 30s. At some point, this core just, the collective age-related decline drags everything else down, and they've got so many cap problems, and I just don't see how they make it work long term. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. I think, uh, I think, uh, I think we're both giving them the benefit of the doubt having them this high on the list because, uh, like, if you just, if you just look to this collection of, uh, price tags and, and, and names, just without any sort of context or recognition of what they'd done in the past, like, I, I, I think you might be even lower on

them. So it's, um, it's going to be fascinating to see, like, you know, there was this, I forget, someone had this comment, uh, the other day where it was the Blackhawks are viewing this season as a Stanley Cup or bust. And I understand why, based on what their expectations have been in the years past. But with this current roster, it's tough to make the case that, I mean, they might be like the fourth or fifth best team in their own division. So. Yeah, I think they should be looking at this year's Stanley Cup or bust, but you don't trade

Nicholas Jolmersen for Connor Murphy if you're thinking Stanley Cup or bust. Oh, well, I don't know what you're thinking. you're treating Nicholas Johnners and for car. I think that's probably the problem. You're probably not thinking. Well, I really, I mentioned this with Dallas, you know, kind of trying to have your cake and eat it too. It really kind of felt like, you know, Stan Bowman was looking at it and going, how do I

prolong the life cycle of this team? Where can I bring in youth and ship out age without too much of a decline? And I think that was too much of a decline, but, you know, Bowman's done a good job over the years. So we'll see. Yeah. Well, they do have my guy John Franzpaw Barouba under contract, so that bumped them up a few spots on my list. The man, the myth, the legend.

Yes. The pod, the PDOCS friend. He might be co-hosting the PDOCs with me at some point at this rate. I see, I would listen to that. Okay, so we had the stars and the Blackhawks. So I have like, see, I don't even have the Winnipeg Jets yet here. I think you're a bit low on the Jets. I might be a bit low on the Jets.

Let's wait until we get to them on your list. I'm guessing you've got Minnesota somewhere in this range, though. So I have Minnesota, St. Louis, and Columbus in this next three. Wow. You are high on the Jets. Yeah. Yeah, I had the Jets. I had the Jets and the Flyers in that like 11, 10, 10, 9 spot.

Well, okay. I'm with you on Minnesota. Hmm. and mostly because I look at those twin Parisé suitor deals and they're another one of these teams that's kind of neither nor they've got this you know like a lot of good young players but they've also got these these older contracts and I think you can make a case for them as a contender this year

if you know everything broke right but I just to me they're one of those teams that maybe is good but is never great and and that's that's the concern for me with the wild Yeah. No, that's completely fair. They do have a lot of really, really good players. And like it's conceivable, listen, they haven't done it yet. And we've been down this road a couple times now and it's led to disappointment. And I understand the natural human reaction is to sort of learn from those mistakes and kind of emotionally brace yourself or change your thinking. At the same time, I look at this roster and I see no reason why they can't make a long run this year and be

considered one of the preeminent Stanley Cup contenders. I mean, there's so many good players and they're very deep and very, very, there are very few holes in this roster, which I really like, because a lot of these other teams we've mentioned already, they have the stars, but the problem is, is that they, especially come postseason, they get exposed because there's so many holes in their roster that can be exploited with matchups and when teams are preparing more closely for them. And with this team, uh, there's just so much depth. And they've also done a really good job of drafting in recent years, even though they haven't had really high picks. So they've been replenishing the system as well.

And I like them. I like the coaching. I like everything that's in place right now. Obviously, we need to see it first before we have more faith in it. But I'm very comfortable with where we have them in this ranking list. I think somewhere here in that 13-ish range seems about right for them. I agree with everything you said about the wild. I really like them for all the reasons you laid out.

but I feel like I should hit the thing that really knocks them down for me, beyond what I've already said, just because apparently I'm the guy who hates on the wild today. The thing I don't like about the wild is if you're a big believer that elite talent wins you championships, you know, the Sydney Crosby's, the Patrick Keynes, who is that guy in Minnesota? And I don't know that they have one, right?

Yeah, it's definitely a more of a committee approach than it is someone telling them to just hop on their back and they're going to carry them through a series, that's for sure. Yeah, and I'm not a guy who's dogmatic on this point. I think you can win a Stanley Cup in a lot of different ways, and, you know, Eric Stahl won with a team that was a bi-committee team in Carolina. But I look at the team, and that's my concern, is when, you know, the game is on the line in this critical situation,

and the other team sends out Connor McDavid or, you know, Hampus Lindholm when Ryan Getslap or P.K. Saban, I don't think Minnesota has the horses at the very, very top end to match that. Yeah, I think that's fair. So what do you think about St. Louis? You had them higher on the list? I had St. Louis quite a bit higher on the list, actually. St. Louis is inside my top 10, and Columbus is right on the border.

I cannot get Winnipeg past either of those two teams, but let's save Winnipeg for where you got him and talk about the blues and the blue jackets. Well, okay, so let me do my blue spiel here. Okay. They have a lot of good contracts here, right? Like the getting pariko for $5.5 million long term, great. Alex Petrangelo under contract pretty much through his entire prime for 6.5, awesome. They have Teresinkle locked up long term. They have Schwartz locked up long term.

I love that. I don't love how they've approached the other stuff on the peripheries though. Like I'd be much more fond of this team and their outlook moving forward if they hadn't sort of felt this need to compulsively just lock down like a guy like Patrick Bergland for, what was it, four or five years at 3.85. Like it's just stuff like that that kind of bugs me in and makes me feel like they're sort of just spinning their wheels a little bit here.

And that's ultimately why I had them at this point. like, wasn't I had them 14th or 13th, I should say, so in Minnesota 12. So, I mean, I'm not crazy down on them. I just, it just doesn't really excite me as a collective, I don't think. I agree. But I'll give you my counter-speel. So in this scenario, it's you or me taking over the team, right? So I look at the blues and I think about what I could do with this roster.

So you've got Vladimir Teresanko at the top end, who is, I mean, he's tremendous. You combine that with Pareco and Patriangelo both on very reasonable contracts on the back end, and that to me is a big three that you can build around. I don't like a lot of the supporting cast. I didn't like the Braden Shend trade this summer. I don't like Patrick Bergland's contract, particularly. I'm nervous about Vladimir Sabatka, signing Chris Thorburned two years. I don't understand.

There are times, there are lots of times that I look at GMs, and I can kind of get behind what they're thinking, and I can give them the benefit of the doubt and maybe they know something I don't, but come on. Thorburn's 34 and he's getting a two-year deal in the league. I don't care what the money is. Are you crazy? Like, how is this guy getting a contract

when you look at some of the players still in free agency? That blows my mind. But the caveat to all this is it doesn't really matter. Right. You can dump Thorburn in the minors and it's irrelevant. You can probably trade Patrick Bergland because, well, I mean, he's got a no-move clause, so maybe not. But teams are crazy about it.

big centers. You can usually do something about those stuff. And there aren't any really albatross deals on the roster. Like the closest thing is probably Jay Beaumister's two-year deal, which you can probably get out of if you have to. Right. And because, so they've got the great top-end talent. They've got some useful depth pieces. They've got some stuff in the system, and they don't have any major liabilities. I think this is a team that somebody with ambition and a vision could do a lot with over the next three or four years and have them be a continual contender basically out of the gate and just be a very exciting, very interesting team. They aren't that now, but if you have the right kind of vision at the top, I think they could be. All that's fair.

And maybe I didn't give enough weight to the fact that if myself or someone I felt really confident was taking over this team with that vision that they could make a lot out of this, I just I guess I was looking at this current roster as constructed right now, and I'm not, I don't want to say like I'm underwhelmed or just unimpressed by it because, I mean, listen, this team made the conference final two years ago and is obviously has a lot of talent. It just, I, I had a tough time putting them inside my top 10 because there were a bunch of teams that I was just more excited about, I guess, in terms of the pieces they have in place. Yeah, that's, that's fair. I just, I guess, to me, I just look at those. those cornerstone pieces, and I don't see any reason you can't build around them. I completely agree that they've got a bunch of guys who are just kind of meh. I'm filling out the roster, though. Okay, well, let's talk about the Jets then.

We've put it off along enough here. Man, I didn't realize that they gave Brian Little this to contract. Well, yes, because this is the problem with doing the, with the cursed show, right? If we'd done this two weeks ago, we'd be talking about a different Jets team than we are now. Yes, that is true. Although I still, I mean, if you're talking about, you know, stars and potential and those cornerstone pieces, I mean, man, this team is loaded with them. And obviously, like, if we had this discussion before the summer, before they paid Dmitra Kulikov and gave Brian Little, who's about to turn 30 years old, this long-term extension, I would have been more excited about

their flexibility and their outlook. But still, I mean, when you're starting off with Guys like Shifley and Wheeler and Line A and Eilers up front. And then you still have, you know, Buffalo and Troubaugh on the Blue Line and Morrissey, who seems to be ascending. Like, with this team, it's never been a matter. It's never been a question of that. It's mostly more so been sort of just can they make enough saves

to put it all together and make any of it matter. And I guess we'll see this season. But in terms of just inheriting a team and the talent in place, I'm just, I'm so tantalized. by this Jets team and maybe that's just a blind spot for me a little bit and maybe I'm too high on them but I just can't get past how

how great the top of this roster could potentially be if everything comes together. Yeah, well I'm this is not I'm not down on Winnipeg. I think they're 12th on my list. But I look at this team like how could you not be excited about getting Lane and Ailers

and Shifley? Like of course you would be and we learn little I mean, as much as we may not love that little contract, the not so little contract, I guess. Both of those guys are very good veterans in the hearing now. So is a guy like Matthew Perrault, who I'm a fan. I know you're a fan. My problem with Winnipeg, to a large degree, is the blue line. I like Jacob Truba. But I'm not, I don't hate Kula.

I think you and I've talked about Kulikov's. deal before. I don't hate it quite as much as you do, but it's not good. I'm not a big Tyler Myers guy. Toby Endstrom, I love Toby Enstrom, but at this point, his career. And Dustin Bufflin's contract is, it's dangerous. Like, I understand why it's there. I'm not saying I would have done anything different. Like, I probably would assign him to that same deal given, given the choices Winnipeg faced, but it is dangerous. And so I look at that back end, and I don't think it comes close to matching the abundance of riches they have up front. And you combine that with kind of uncertain goal-tending,

and I'm lukewarm on the team. I really like a lot of their young guys, but I don't know that they're a contender this year. And I also feel like they're one of those teams that just hasn't... We've been talking about them. I think the hockey news had a cover two or three years ago about them as the 2021 Stanley Cup champions or something ridiculous because of their abundance of young talent.

They're one of those teams that has to take the next step and has yet to do so. Yes. Yeah, we definitely need to see the front of them. Kind of like we just laid out with the Minnesota Wilde where I've definitely been burned by being too high on the Winnipeg Jets over the past few years. And I think if we go through a similar story again this season, then maybe I'm really going to have to readjust. But I guess I'm still the optimist in me is holding out hope that it's come together because that collection of talent is just so exciting. and maybe it is one of those things where, you know, I'm putting too much stock into the individual names and not focusing enough on the collective where everything that's going on in the peripheries. It's kind of the opposite of what's going on in Minnesota.

Let me just say this. They've got, you look at the four names. They'll give you four names. Kulikov-Myers, Enstrom, and Bufflin. Those guys combined have something like $23, $24 million in Cap It. Right. Even if you believe in Bufflin right now, which I do. He's, you know, he's 32.

He might be a player who doesn't age well. If you've got a third of your, and with the acknowledgement that Endstrom's coming off the books, but none of the other guys are next year, that's a lot of money to be tied up in a pretty pedestrian group of defensemen. Yeah, yeah, that definitely seems like it's a blind spot for Kevin Shevolde off for sure. Yeah, I point well taken. um Columbus where do you where do you have the blue jackets I have okay I'm I'm gonna get in trouble for this because I have them ahead of two teams that I absolutely love but I've got Columbus in 10th well that's fair I have Columbus in 10th well and I had Columbus uh in 11th I should say and I had Winnipeg 10th yeah um okay so yeah why why are you going to get in trouble well because the the two teams I have behind them I'm going to get in trouble for but we'll we'll We'll get to those teams. I mean, we all know you're irrationally excited about the blue jackets.

I remember everyone remembers the faithful day when you had them number one in our, in our PDOCs. Yes. Yes, an embarrassment that will live in infamy. It's going to say that on your tombstone one day, Jonathan. I hope you know that. Did you know in mid-2016? This man, yes. Yeah, I like Columbus.

And I like, and you know what? I would not have had Columbus. Like, it's a testament to the year Columbus. has had, right? Like Columbus had a phenomenal year, did a lot of things that were controversial and that really worked out for them. I think they've got a nice mix of talent that can, that, that to me is maybe the difference between Columbus and Winnipeg.

Not that Columbus has the same collection of good young players that Winnipeg does, but their collection of good young players is really solid. And they're also good right now. So if you're looking at the window for Columbus, it's open basically now, and I don't know when it closes. And that to me is my argument for them at 10. Yeah. Well, I guess the argument, not an argument, but maybe just the

point worth raising about Columbus is what is their current ceiling for right now? Because I do agree that, you know, with the collection of talent they have and the ages of those guys, like there's no reason to believe that there's going to be this steep decline after a year or two. I'm just curious. Like, we saw the peak last year,

but we also saw what happened when things went bad. And they got smoked by the penguins in the playoffs. And obviously that's nothing to be ashamed of. They've done it to a lot of teams the past two years. But I'm just curious, like, what's your outlook for this Blue Jackets team kind of forecasting this coming season in terms of both the NHL's hierarchy and also in the Metro Division? Yeah, that's, I guess what I'd say is I'm not sure,

how to wait the regular season versus the playoffs last year. They did have 50 wins in the Met, right? They were neck and neck with Pittsburgh all year. Pittsburgh won a cup. So, you know, if Columbus is the regular season on par with Pittsburgh, which they were, are they really that far from being true contenders? I do have kind of the same issue with Columbus that I have with their expansion cousin, Minnesota, where I just don't know if the top end guys are top end enough.

I feel like that might have been part of the reason they brought in Panarin was this idea that they needed a real skill driver at the top of the roster. They're just a very well-built team at all positions, incredibly deep, but I don't know if that lack of top-end costs them in the playoffs, and it very well might be what makes the difference. Yeah, they sort of are Minnesota East, hey? Like, especially, you know, you like their blue line a lot and the contracts they have and there's plenty of depth and a lot of these guys are on the, you know,

on the right age of their peak. But there are those questions about whether they're going to have what it takes to put it all together and unseat some of these top teams in their conferences. So I'm fascinated to see it. Like they were obviously a very pleasant surprise last year and very fun to watch. And I think while, you know, Brendan Sod is a better player and a better asset, I think, in the grand scheme of things in Panarin, uh, his, skill and ability to make those wild plays will only help make them more aesthetically pleasing to watch. So I'm kind of, I'm fascinated to see how they're going to look next season and how it's going to work in another season with John Tortarella because we've also seen that

things can sometimes go sour with those relationships after a while with him. So I'm curious to see whether it's going to be as smooth sailing as it was last season as well. Yeah, Tortorella is a pretty interesting coach. I have a certain affection for the safe as death Torterella that we saw in Tampa Bay and to some degree last year in Columbus. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see if he can keep it together over the long haul. Because that's the thing with Columbus. Last year was great. Now they have to do it again.

Completely agree. Okay, so I had the Flyers at 9. Yes, and I have Philadelphia at 12, which doesn't, 12 to 9 doesn't sound that ridiculous when I put it that way. But I love the Flyers. I love so many things about the Flyers. it just kills me to have them this low on my list. Yes.

So this question was raised in a mailback episode I did with Andrew Berkshire a handful of weeks ago. And I think it's a good topic of discussion here for us because one of the listeners basically raised this question of what to make of the fact that, you know, it seems like there's this kind of disparity in terms of how the flyers are built where they have this young up-and-coming blue line with a bunch of guys they've drafted and groomed that are going to be on their way in the next few years. but they also have all these expensive forwards right now that are either in their late 20s or already into their 30s

and they're making a ton of money. And it's like, are those guys still going to be at the peak of their games by the time the blue line of this team is ready for it, all to kind of come together at the same time and open that window wide open for them. And I think that is a very legitimate question because it does seem like the timelines of those two groups are a bit off. it absolutely does and um i i feel like that's the the transition they made when they they brought

ron hextall in was they went from being a today team to being a team with sort of the longer mindset and um the desire to kind of shed some of the bad contracts and and kind of re almost rebuild on the fly like that's almost what hextall's done in terms of of shipping out contracts and restocking the prospect covered but the result of a rebuild on the fly is that you end up with with two different core groups of very different ages. And then it becomes a question of how you reconcile that. How do you win with, you know, Claude Giroux and Ivan Proverov both as, you know, key pieces in your enterprise? And maybe you can't.

But I think what Hextall has in his favor is he's shown an ability to deal with these big long-term contracts. And I have a level of faith that, you know, three years from now is Jureu or Borrach is a problem. and he can find a way out of it. Right. Yeah, I completely agree. And, you know, they've done an admirable job here of accumulating assets because even though, you know, we have concerns about what Juru, Voracek, Simmons are going to look like two, three years from now, you know, they obviously lucked out by getting Nolan Patrick in this year's draft. And they did well to trade up and get Travis Kineckney and, you know, Sean Kutriere will still be in. prime in a few years.

So they do have this next wave. It's not like it's completely barren, but I do think that that's a legitimate concern about those two groups and whether it's going to mesh at the right time. But Ron Hextall has done a remarkable job because a few years ago, they seemed like they had one of the most bleak outlooks in the league, and now you had them 12, I have them nine, and we're both very high on them as a group.

Yeah, and maybe that's just a good lesson, too, in terms of the potential because we're looking at these rosters and some of the teams further down the list, things look pretty bad, but if you get somebody in who knows what they're doing, teams can move quickly. Philadelphia, not that long ago,

I mean, Detroit's in a much worse position than Philadelphia is, was even, but somebody who's willing to play the salary cap and play the long game can do a lot. And maybe that goes to only, ownership to is having ownership bring in a GM and tell him, look, we're with you. We understand this is a process and we're convinced here the guy for the job and that maybe gave him the freedom that he might not have had in another city.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so we have the top eight here. And man, I'm scared to even get started with this group because it's so tough to weigh all the factors here, right? because you have a handful of teams left that we haven't discussed that are considered to be, you know, preeminent cup contenders heading into next season. But I'm not that high on their outlook a couple years from now.

But obviously, as we've discussed with certain teams, we do need to weigh the, you know, current relevance very highly because a lot can change a few years from now. And then you have these teams that have gone through this rebuilding phase and finally have the young stars. and may not have had the success of the other teams to this date, but at this time next season we could be talking about how they were made a long cup run. So it's really tough to weigh what to prioritize with these groups. Yes and no. My top seven is very difficult, but St. Louis was in my top eight,

and there's a team we haven't talked about that was actually just outside my top ten. Who was that? I had Carolina 11th. Oh, okay. I love Carolina, but I feel like maybe I don't love them as much as Dimitri loves them. Yeah. Well, okay, just listen to what we just said about the Winnipeg Jets and play that back and just replace Carolina with everything. Obviously, it's a different collection of talent, but it's sort of the similar thing where I've been super high on them for a few years and I'm just sort of doubling down at this point.

I love the gains. that's an awesome team in so many ways. If we're playing this game, did you factor in ownership and budgetability to any degree when you were looking at these rosters or did you just look at the roster? I did a little bit, but I tried to sort of make that more of an outside factor that if there was a tie break, right, didn't try to factor very heavily because, you know, we don't know how things are going to change. And for all we know, if a team like the hurricanes all of a sudden, you know, gets really good and starts winning a bunch of games when it becomes a juggernaut. Maybe that financial plan will change. So it's tough. I didn't want to put too much stock into it. But you do have to consider it a little bit at the very least. But it's like maybe the craziest thing about Carolina is that they have the roster they have at a projected cap hit, according to you, Capfriendly.com, of $58 million. which is insane that they've got almost 20 million in cap space and the collection of talent they have is ridiculous

yeah and they had a great summer right they locked up pesci and slated long term they bring in scott darling they get justin williams who's a you know a perfect fit for them in that two-year contract window and they're uh they're looking very good obviously i'd like to see them finally um take that next step and turn some of that potential into actual results But it seems like this year there is poises ever to actually do so and accomplish that finally. Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned them kind of being Winnipeg. I'll tell you why I have a big gap between Carolina and Winnipeg.

I think they're sort of the same in that they've got the really big. Like Carolina's got a great collection of talent on the blue line. And the group up front is not quite as impressive. So they're kind of a fun house flipped image of Winnipeg. Right. But I like Carolina's young fore. forward's better than I like Winnipeg's young defenseman. And Carolina doesn't have anything resembling the kind of cap liabilities that Winnipeg does.

That's true. Carolina, I don't know, is there a bad contract? Well, Cam Ward, I guess Cam Ward's one year, 3.3 million remaining cap, it is probably the worst deal on the roster. And that's stunning. Well, they are still playing Alex Semen 2.3 million per season for the next four seasons. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Yeah. It's not ideal. Three million tied up, if you count James was. in buyout club too. Yeah, but listen, they've obviously handled this pretty meticulously, and you're right, there's nothing really resembling an albatross here, and that type of flexibility would be really fun to take over because pretty much, and with all the young assets they have as well, you know, you could really get creative with this team and trying to push them over the top

where you could sort of go with this more methodical approach and try to let it all happen organically, and I'm going to be very fascinated to watch them very closely this season, because hopefully this is the year to finally put it all together. Yeah, it'd be great to transplant this team into a larger market because they're going to get overlooked and they're a lot of fun. They're a really cool roster. Okay, so let's get into your top seven then. So the bottom of my top seven is the Washington Capitals.

So, yes. It's really tough separating for me, the Capitals from the Penguins and the Ducks here. I agree and I disagree. The difference between Pittsburgh and Washington is... Don't say rings. Don't say rings. Don't say it. Don't say it. Don't say cups. This isn't a message for, Jonathan. Don't say it. No, but you do...

I guess the way I look at it is it's not a... It's not the old school. You're count the rings, kid, thing. It's just, it's... maybe it's a sense of just humility in that we don't know. We know a lot about the game, and we've made a lot of strides in the last decade on the analytics front. I feel like we're getting smarter all the time about the things we can pick up on, but there are things that we don't necessarily quantify properly in terms of, and maybe it's just the difference between having superstars at center versus on the wing.

There's a zillion things that, there's still stuff we don't know about the game. And because Pittsburgh's group, it's core group, it's like with what we mentioned with Chicago where you give them the benefit of the doubt because they've been so successful. Pittsburgh's core group being successful in the playoffs in back-to-back years and back-to-back years previously, I feel like there's a benefit of the doubt wiggle factor for them that doesn't exist with Washington. In Washington, it sort of works the other way. Right. Yeah.

This is a, there's more under heaven and earth than is written in your books or whatever moment, where there's just, I don't necessarily, but you know, you know what, there's, I'm, I don't want to seem mystical about this because I have concrete reasons for having Washington below Pittsburgh too, but to me they aren't on the same tier. Well, and the concrete reasons are that they had an absolutely dreadful summer. That's a big part of it. Like the T.J.O.O.C.O. contract. you know having like not having the ability to to forecast what was going to happen and all of a sudden like if you're taking over this team um viewing looking at andre berkovsky now with his bridge contract is much less appealing because they had a potential here to lock him up long term and instead they

had to settle for this deal when two years from now you're going to have to pay him much more than you could have otherwise this summer and you know it's just stuff like that where they really depleted their depth and while the top end is still great and there's still going to be one of the best teams in the league next season. They just really had a very unfortunate and very disappointing summer if you're a fan of the team. And it's, I think that's definitely, I agree, they're below the penguins here.

I just sort of lump them together because they were sort of in that similar vein of, of they're going to be really good right now. And that window might be open for a few years. But beyond that, it might be, it might be pretty tough. Well, here's, here's, you're absolutely right about the summer. and here's kind of an interesting, well, hopefully interesting way to look at it. Who's the most, like in terms of winning Stanley Cup this year,

who's the most important player on Washington's roster? Nicholas Baxter. Yeah, yeah. Right? Because I think even if Holtby got injured as great as he is, it's conceivable that a Philip Grubauer could step in and be 80% of 90% of him, whereas if Baxter went out, I just don't see how,

they'd fill that gap. Yeah, I feel similarly. But I think, to me, it came down to Baxter versus Holby when I thought about it that way. And the fact that Ovechkin isn't in the top two in that conversation is a big problem because I don't think that Nicholas Backstrom, and I love Nicholas Baxter, but I don't think he's of Jenny Malkin. And he's really not Sidney Crosby.

And so my predilection for choosing, you know, the guys with the really elite talent at the top end, Washington had that when Baxter and Ovechkin were really in their primes you can still make a case for Baxter I feel like after the year Ovechkin had he's still a very very impactful player in the windows where he has that impact particularly as a shooter on the power play

but in other things too but I don't feel like he is the player he was and I knock the capitals for that reason because I don't know that they have the top end anymore yeah that's fair I mean, we're talking about them as a seventh team, though, so it's still pretty good. I know it's still very good.

This is all relative. Yes, after the summer, it's very easy to be doom and gloom and loose perspective of that. But there still should be considered one of the cup favorites this season. So do you have the, okay, so if we're talking in terms of, you know, teams that are contenders right now that we haven't mentioned yet that sort of have maybe older core groups, like the ducks versus the penguins. how do we approach that discussion? I don't know. I think if I were going to look at it, like Anaheim obviously has money committed to older players

and the Kessler, Perry, Gepstlaf, top end is old. Right. But maybe the difference between the ducks and the penguins is that I can see the next wave in Anaheim. Like I can see five years from now an Anaheim contender being built around a Hampus Lindholm-led

Blue Line. I don't necessarily see that same potential in Pittsburgh. I think Anaheim I actually have Pittsburgh ahead of Anaheim, so I'm arguing against my point because I think Pittsburgh is a much better chance, well, maybe, a better chance anyway of winning the Cup this year. But Anaheim, to me, I don't know that they're

necessarily due when their current core assuming they can manage the cap scenarios and they might be able to given the term on those deals, I think Anaheim has a chance to defy the sort of cyclical nature of the NHL in a way that Pittsburgh does not. Yeah, they're definitely set up on that blue line even after I think that they made a mistake with how they handled the camfowler situation because I think that getting out while they could have and selling high on him as a trade asset would have been better than paying him $6.5 million. term and instead focusing on Linhol, Manson, and even Vattenen as your core defensive group, I would have preferred that. But I mean, even with that move, their blue line is obviously absolutely loaded for years to come, even after losing Shea Theodore because they have a guy

like Brandon Montour now coming up who looks totally legit. And yeah, it's concerning that, especially Perry, I know that he had a lot of unfortunate shooting luck last year. It's very conceivable. he could bounce back in that department this coming season, but it's pretty clear he's also on the down swing. So having, like, what do they have, like, $20 million in Perry, gets laughing Kessler, and they're all 32 years old or older. Like, that's pretty tough moving forward. But at the same time, they do have that.

Like, when we discussed with Dallas where they're trying to have their cake and eat it too, it seems. like Anaheim is much more well suited to actually accomplish that task. Yeah, yeah. Because, and maybe the difference there is that maybe the difference that comes down to Hampas Lindholm being 23 because he's not a, like he is a young defenseman who could absolutely be the future of the team for the next decade, but he's also, he's not growing into the role.

He is that guy right now too. Yep. And he's in a much better position to support, you know, a Corey gets laugh led. group than somebody like Esau Lindell is in Dallas. Did you just combine them and call them Corey Getslaw? Did I do that? I think you did. I might have.

It's like one of those celebrity couples. I've had either too much coffee or not enough coffee this morning, so I probably did combine them. Corey Getslap, quite a player. Cory Getslap. Ryan, Harry. Great guys. Yes. Okay, so I think we did our due diligence here on the Ducks.

The Penguins, we touched on them a little bit. I mean, I feel like there isn't anything crazy insightful that we're going to say about them at this point. Like, it seems like it's pretty obvious where they're at. And throughout future, I might not look that great. But, hey, right now they have Crosby and Malkins. So I think they're going to enjoy these times while they still can. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, if I have them second on my list because they could win, I don't know,

how long is their window open for? Four, five years? Is that too aggressive? I'd say at least, I'd feel comfortable saying three. I think you could push it to a fourth after that. It'll get dicey, especially if they, especially if they're leaning on them as heavily as they are right now. Yeah. And injury is obviously an X factor there because, well, I don't need to even really go into it.

It just obviously is. That's fair. So I have the Oilers next. How high on them were you? This is where I'm going to get in trouble again. I feel like I'm just doing this. I have Edmonton number one. Oh, Jonathan, Jonathan, no, don't.

And I'll tell you why, I'll tell you why, because Edmonton has Connor McDavid and nobody else does. Yeah, that's fair. Do you want to get into Edmonton now? Do you want to hold off and wait? Let's do Edmonton now. Okay. Okay, so I guess I should probably make the case

for why I have them, where I have them. And I say this is somebody who is a little bit down on some of the recent work that Edmonton has done. I would be more, well, there's no need to get into that. They do have some cap liabilities, notably. I think Milan Luchich is going to have a bounce back year. I think last year was, when I went and looked at it, players his age in the years they had, when they had down years like that, they tended to rebound.

I think Luchich will. He's a much better player at five-on-five than we saw last. year and that's going to make a big difference. But he's also signed to a forever contract. And three, four years from now, that could be just a miserable albatross. I don't like the Chris Russell deal. There are other deals I don't like.

But what I do love is the core. I love Connor McDavid. He's a tremendous player. The value of Connor McDavid to any roster in the league is impossible to overestimate, I think. I like Leon Drysidal a lot. I thought they overpaid him by $750 to a million bucks a year. I thought that was a foolish thing to do,

but he's a good player at the very least. I like Eugene Hopkins. I'm more bullish on him than a lot of people are. And I look at the blue line. They've got a good collection of young defensemen. I'm not comfortable with the Taylor Hall price on Adam Larson still, but he is a good right-shot defenseman in the prime of his career signed for four years at a cap-friendly deal.

Oscar Kleffbaugh on the sign for six years at a cap-friendly deal. He's right in the heart of his career. There are just so many good pieces. The window for Edmonton is open now and probably doesn't close until it is 30, 32, 33 if they do it right. So if you're in charge in Edmonton now, you're looking at a fantastic decade and the ability to win tomorrow, which very, very few teams on this list have. yeah man don't don't make me uh argue against uh anything related to connor mc david at this point i don't want to that's not a side i want to be on um listen i had them top five here uh so i had them fourth actually so i mean i'm i'm high on the oilers i think uh i just think how can you not be but but you obviously

have guys have teams ahead of them well i just like so i had the predators the leaps and the lightning ahead of them And I just, I, none of those teams have Connor McDavid, obviously. Yep. I just like, I think, I think those teams have, um, not, not, not comparable because no, at this point, no one's comparable to Connor McDavid and people are going to get in trouble trying to make comparisons over the next decade to him. But they have sort of good enough high-end talent while also having, uh, you know, being better. suited in the depth department in my in my estimation right now like you know oh i i agree entirely so so i think that's where i gave them a slight advantage because i don't think they're necessarily sacrificing that much on the top end while being better suited around those stars but i mean

listen you make good points i think especially on on the blue line having having cleftbaum and larson um for for all the trouble uh people give larsen and the price they paid for as you alluded to, having those two guys combined locked up through their pretty much their respective primes for just over $8 million combined is huge. It's a massive luxury for this team. And that sets them up nicely. Up front, we'll see what happens. Like if they wind up having to trade Nugent Hopkins for 50 to 75 cents on a dollar just to get

rid of that contract, I'm going to be sad about that because, um, Because it'll be a blown opportunity. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's sort of the reservation I have with this team. I was so excited about the situation last year, and I thought that they didn't push hard enough for it while they still had dry saddle and McDavid for this cheap. And I guess they still have one more year before McDavid's contract kicks in.

But that room for error is shrinking. And I'd like to see them maximize it a bit more. Yeah, there's absolutely no question. I feel a little bit like this is kind of the conversation we had about St. Louis. And that just comes down to kind of a difference in ranking methodology to me. Because I have a lot of the same reservations you have about the sort of supporting cast in Edmonton, particularly on the blue line. Behind, Clefbaum and Larson are amazing and they cover for a lot of sins, just in terms of where they are in their careers and their cab hits and all that.

But the rest of that blue line, there are some problems. I guess I just look at it as being things that you can fix. Maybe it's going to be more difficult now because they are locked in on Russell. I thought they had a great opportunity last year, but I think you can fix the supporting cast, and there's just no replacing, you know, make Dave put in the top end and Zachara Cleft Bomb on the, or Cleft Bomb Larson on the back end. Yep. No, I'm with you there.

So, yeah, I had the Predators number one on my list. because I just other than Peckerene deal like their their books are just so clean it's like

it's kind of like what we talked about with the hurricanes except to an even more impressive degree because of where they're at as a franchise right now where it's like

I guess you know giving Ryan Johansson those that full 8 million for that term is a bit pricey but like when you have all those other deals when you have philip for six million when you have when you get victor

arbitz and it take 4.25 and so on and so far that you have all those defensemen under four like you can you can afford to give your stars a little bigger piece of the pie without having a fret over it too much and and and they're just so well set up in terms of the stars and the depth that i just i don't really see very many flaws with this team even if you know like the nick benino contract the summer not ideal obviously he's 29 you're giving him a four-year deal but he's going to step in that lineup. He's going to help them right now. And they're once again going to be a massive cup contender. I don't think two, three years from now we're going,

circling back to a Nick Benino deal going, oh, no, they just can't get around this albatross. It's going to do in the entire operation. No, I agree entirely. You can quibble a little bit with paying Savan $9 million. I know that wasn't their call. They brought the player in. But it's a lot of money. But you can get away with it because he's an elite right shot.

defenseman and those guys are and and and johansen i kind of compare it a little bit to dry sidel in that it's maybe you know a bit of an overpay in terms of average annual value but if you're going to bet on a young quality center that's not if you're going to overpay that's that's probably the place you should overpay right yeah it's it's fascinating how we uh again n hl teams do this a lot where it seems to be like sticking points uh for what are in the grand scheme of things peanuts for actual players that are important and then all of a sudden you're just willing to give out a couple million dollars to a third fourth liner who ultimately doesn't move the needle in all so it's like you gotta pick your battles where you're where you need to yeah absolutely absolutely and

you know i i am a fan of grinding guys down for every penny you can but grand scheme of things it's a it's a it's a minor sin yeah i mean how the way i view it is they're paying arvinson and yohansson 12.25 million combined, which is a great value. Yeah. So, yeah, so I had the predators first, and then it was sort of a coin flip for me, because as I mentioned, I had the Oilers' Fourth, and then it was the Leafs and the Lightning. And I guess you could go either way. I mean, do you have a preference on either of those two teams?

The Leafs or the Lightning? Yeah, I had Tampa Bay out. I had Tampa Bay 6th on my list. Because I had Pittsburgh, I think I said, I had Pittsburgh second, Edmonton first, Nashville was third, and those three teams in Anaheim and Toronto were the teams that I look at as the five most desirable. And then Tampa Bay was just a slight tier below that. And partially that's because as good as Tampa Bay's top end is really good. Tampa Bay has a lot of good young players, but the young players aren't really that young anymore.

and you're getting, they're already kind of in this very difficult cap situation where they've been forced to make sacrifices. And, you know, Steve Eisman, I think, has done a tremendous job of navigating it for the most part with some caveats about this summer. Yeah. But it doesn't get easier going forward. And to me, you know, if they haven't won yet, and it's not clear to me why they will win two years from now versus a year ago. I guess is what I'm getting at. I think they're a contender. I think they're very good.

I think they've got a wide open window. But the cap situation's very difficult. A lot of their good deals are running out, and it's going to be very tough to keep the team together, and they haven't won anything yet. Yeah, that's completely true. I mean, obviously, yeah, I'd like to see them have a nice run of health this season, because obviously, if this team is fully together,

and they're firing on all cylinders. I think they're capable of great things, as we saw a couple years ago. So hopefully we will be deprived of that again this season. But yeah, there are definitely some red flags moving forward with the Leafs. Like, it's a great spot to be in. Sort of similar to what we just discussed with the Oilers. Hopefully they're able to maximize that before they have to pay the price that some of these young guys are going to cost. And so we're going to see how that's going to work out in the next couple of years.

but obviously for right now they're just completely set. My one quibble with Toronto, because I've got Toronto fifth on my list. I guess I've got two quibbles, and the first is that they've got some cap deals that I don't like. But the second quibble with them is their blue line. I'm not totally sold that they have.

And I've got a little bit of skepticism about Clefbaum-Larsson as your talk to guys. Not a lot. I think they're probably there. I've got more skepticism about the Leafs. I don't think Zytezavs that guy. Riley might be it's it's you know you can win without a really high end guy on the blue line but I'm

it is more difficult and I'm not sure the Leafs have the really high end cornerstone guy yeah that's was a bit disappointing about how they handled this summer where I would have like to see them kind of get super aggressive and try to be creative in bringing in an actual difference maker on the blue line as opposed to bringing in Patrick Marlow and Ron Hainzy as your two guys that are going to eat up that money so I think that that that's something we can quibble with, but obviously, I mean, we saw what they were capable of last year as a team with all this, all this youth and all this dynamic talent. And there's only reason to believe that they're going to be better and more well suited to win more consistently next year and the

years to come. So it's pretty exciting if you're a Leaves fan. Oh, for sure. You can do a lot with, you know, the Matthews, Nylander-Marner-Trio. And because this is kind of built on the ashes of an earlier rebuild. You still have a lot of really cool, still young kind of mid-career guys like Codry and Van Riemsdike. And you've got to figure out what you're doing with them because you probably can't keep them all long term. But yeah, so it's a really, it's a really great situation to be in for Toronto and not too much more to say on it. Yeah, I think that's fair. All right, Jonathan, do you want to plug anything before we get out of here? I know that you've, in the few weeks since we've chatted, you've had some pretty exciting

career news as well. So why don't you tell the listeners a little bit about that and what you're up to these days? Yeah, I guess we haven't talked about that, eh? I started with the athletic in Edmonton on September 5th, I guess, so two weeks ago. And all my oiler stuff is going to be there from now on. It's a really cool opportunity. A lot of people will be familiar with it from the success they had in Toronto last year. And I'm just really happy to be part of the expansion.

I'll still be doing odd pieces. or not odd pieces, but regular NHL columns for SportsNet and other outlets. But my Edmonton stuff is at the Atlantic. And your just general thoughts will be available throughout the season on the Hockey PDOCast. Whenever Dimitri has me on the show and we can actually tape the show, I will be more than happy to pop in. I think the fact that we just did like a two-hour show makes up for the fact that it took a couple weeks to make it actually finally happen. It was worth the wait. Yeah, this was and you know what?

it was fun to go through this in a little bit of depth because I don't feel like we really short changed any teams. Now we'll hear about the teams that we did. There's definitely going to be some fan bases that will take issue with either us not giving them enough attention or focusing on all the wrong things. But I guess you can please everyone. No, no, you cannot. All right, Jonathan, well, good luck preparing for the season here in the next couple of weeks,

and we'll definitely have you back on soon. Yeah, and hey, we're going to be able to talk hockey and hockey games. It's very exciting. I cannot wait for that. Me too. Okay. Chat to anybody. Bye.

The Hockey PDOCast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockey pdocast.