The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 203: 106.7 Reasons to Listen

Episode Date: November 6, 2017

Andrew Berkshire and Mike Kelly join the show live from Montreal to discuss a variety of different topics: 0:43 John Molson Sports Business Conference panel 6:13 Shot Quality, Shot Quantity, and the Canadiens 19:28 Are the Golden Knights actually good? 30:00 Vadim Shipachyov's 31 minutes and 46 seconds of fame 39:13 What's the appropriate level of panic for the Penguins? 47:47 Who are the legitimate contenders? Sponsoring today’s show is SeatGeek, which is making it easier than ever before to buy and sell sports and concert tickets. They’re giving our listeners a $20 rebate off of their first purchase. All you have to do is download the free SeatGeek app and enter the promo code PDO to get started. Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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across from me sharing a mic ever so intimately uh Andrew Berkshire and Mike Kelly how's it going Dimitri that's going Mike what's going on man uh not much happy to be here I'm happy to have you guys so we are let's give them a lay of the land a little bit the listeners we are recording this in a conference room at the John Moulson sports business conference and there may be some background music yeah there's some background control it's ambient though I mean you know we're just trying to set the mood here a little bit um so let's start talking um about what we just did, which is record a panel with Megan Cheika, who is not here with us right now. The three of us talked about, our panel was called Grit and Character, which I think was meant to be ironic.

I thought it talked about how gritty and how much character we have. I thought that's what the point was. Yeah, well, we were all misled. Grit and character, like the evolution of analytics, I think it's something to do with obviously analytics, but the title was definitely a little misleading. But, hey, it was a lot of fun talking about where analytics are today in hockey and in sports in general and also the other components that go into putting together winning hockey team. So let's rehash the question about grid and character, though,

because it got brought up and we acknowledged a joke, but then we actually sort of tried to spin it into an actual discussion about quantifying those things. and I think that there's still a decent segment of the fan base in hockey that believes those two things are very valuable in different degrees. And I guess we were talking about whether we can quantify them and how much they actually mean and sort of what, you know, if we can take those words and actually put a number to them. And obviously there's a bit of, it's kind of a tricky thing to do.

But I kind of like your answer, Andrew, about grit and who the grittiest player in the game is, in your opinion? Yeah, mine was Patrice Bergeron, because over the last several years, you know, nobody has recovered more loose pucks, which, you know, if you're going to go for a loose puck, there's a chance you're going to be hit. So that willingness to be hit is a big part of grit for me. And nobody has stripped the opponent of the puck more.

So that means he's getting involved physically. And whether or not that's body checking or a stick check or a pass block, what have you, he's the guy who's going to. going to get that puck back. And to me, that's grit. It might not be the same for everybody else, how you define it. The way I always looked at it is, you know, for me, if I was building a hockey team, it would be more important if a player is willing to take a hit to make a play than it would be for a player to like go in hard on the forecheck and lay a big hit to, you know, lay a defenseman out. Yeah. I think you look at the people that put these teams together, right? I think there's really

one that has a true analytics background. That's the general manager of a team, and that's John in Arizona. Other than that, these are people who invest in it to various degrees, but nobody that's really come from that background. So, you know, I think the analytics are an important component, but they're just that. They're a component of putting together a team. I think far more important for the managers involved is finding the right mix of a whole bunch of different attributes and and putting that basically pieces of a puzzle together to complete a pitcher. Right. And, you know, you're never going to say, I think one of the difficult things is that you can't,

in a lot of ways, quantify what character is. So if people can't, certain people can't quantify it, they say, well, it's not that valuable then. It exists. I mean, there's too many people that believe that it's a significant part of the game and putting together a winning team to ignore. But then you get into, I guess, how much does it matter? and then it's all subjective from there. Yeah, I think the people that say it doesn't exist

are, you know, taking it far to rather in the extreme. I don't think anyone... It's hyperbolizing. Hyperbalizing to make a point, right? And I think that happens a lot with, you know, people are aged, Demetriere, you're younger than me, but I'm going to lump myself in with you. You're with the millennials?

Yes, I'm a millennial. Are you in the Riverdale bracket? Not quite. I'm too old for Riverdale. Guys, that's the PEDEOCast after dark. Okay, hold on. But I feel like that's, you know, sometimes when you're on the outside, you feel like you have to, you know, go more extreme than necessary just to be heard. Right.

And I think that's where a lot of that stuff comes from where, you know, like, oh, leadership doesn't matter. Grit doesn't matter. Of course it matters a little bit. But I think the problem is that on the other side, it's overvalued to the point where, like, you kind of need somebody to say it doesn't matter to rebuff that a little bit. You know, like, if you could just build a team full of leaders and that leadership would carry you to the cup, I feel like it would be easier than if you had to build what you actually do, which what Mike said is almost like a mosaic or a puzzle

where you fit certain pieces together. I mean, look at Montreal this year. It made sense from the outside that Jonathan, Duran, and Max Pacharretti would be fantastic together. Didn't work. Why? Jonathan Drewan's not a big four-checker. Max Patsyretti likes to play with great four-checkers,

whether it's Brandon Gallagher or Philippe Deneau, whenever he plays with those guys, he scores. Put him with Fulip Dino, all of a sudden, Patricady looks back like himself. Things like that, and maybe that's a component of grit. Maybe some people would say Jonathan Druan's not gritty enough, but Jonathan Druan is gritty in other ways. You know, so like it's all about fit.

Yes. Yeah, I mean, my stance all along has been, I generally stick to speaking about stuff. I can actually kind of say with certain to a degree, right, and obviously quantify it a bit and, you know, stuff like, especially that stuff that's behind the scenes and in the locker room that we're not necessarily privy to it's tough for us to speak on it so I don't necessarily

just try to act like I have an opinion on it definitely exists so that's a good segue I guess to talk about the haves a bit there's sort of the I guess it's them and the oilers right now are like the two teams that are the poster childs for the never ending annual shot quality

debate we have Mike I feel like this is where we're really going to get into a good discussion here. A peaceful one, a friendly one. But I think it's an important one to have because, I mean, obviously there's a lot of nuance to it beyond, you know, going on either extreme, you can't just look at the shot totals and just say, oh, you know, there's nothing more to it. And you can also, every time a team outperforms what we expect from them would be silly not to learn from past history and other teams that have regressed eventually. So, I don't know, like, where are you guys

at on the HAB so far in terms of their numbers and what the, you know, what the, you're what the true answer of their actual talent level and their expectations should be moving forward? I think you mentioned shot quality, right? So we can talk about that first. They are top of the league-ish in shots, top-of-the-league-ish in shot attempt differential. They are last in the NHL and the percentage of their shots that come from the slot. Now, that's not the be-all-end-all. This would be part of an explanation as to why they have a lower-than-average shooting percentage.

it does not define why they have a shooting percentage of whatever it might be now, four and a half percent, five percent, wherever they're at. I think it's risen a bit of the past couple weeks. Sure, yeah, they've scored five goals, eight goals. But, you know, I mentioned that shot quality has been a part of the reason why Montreal hasn't been scoring at the rate that maybe people thought they would. And this spawned articles of, hey, look at these people that think that the haves are going to shoot four percent all year.

That's not the point I was trying to make. And if I got lost in translation, then, you know, apologies for that. but it would be, I think, irresponsible to ignore that, just as it would be to say that the reason that they're doing it is because of that. It's a part of the pitcher. I think the Canadians should have more goals than they have based on the fact that they've had a lot of good opportunities

and the pucks haven't gone in to an extent and that will rebound like you talk about. It's overly simplistic in my view to say, well, every team's going to shoot 9 and 1⁄2%. So if you're below, you're going to go up and if you're above, you're going to go down. We see trends on the extremes, and there's validity to that in my opinion.

But again, it's a small piece of it. And really the biggest thing if you want to talk about the Canadian struggles in my mind is the goal tending has been terrible. And we can get into why that might be. But from an expected goal standpoint, if you want to look at it that way, the Canadians are a top 10 team against. The goaltending is last in the NHL. So that to me is more than anything. The biggest difference is the goaltending has just been awful. Yeah.

How much of that do you guys think is like, prices numbers are obviously very poor right now and how much of that do you think is just the fact that he's actually playing poorly and needs to be better or how much of it do you think is something that's going to even out because you know especially with the goaltending position I feel like it's so difficult like with a shooter you have sort of like you know let's say a guy's been in league for six seven years you can sort of have a baseline of what you can expect from him and you figure he'll be around there unless he declines because of age related reasons or because of health with a goalie like we just see sometimes that a guy is just falls off the map and it happens and I imagine Habs fans right now and Mark Bergevan if he's listening are probably hoping that's not what happened. That's not what's happening here considering Kerry Price's mega deal has not even kicked in yet. Yeah, I don't think Carrie Price is in danger of falling off the map. Not that you were suggesting that, I would never. But I don't think Mark Bergervan's worried about that either. But he has to figure this out pretty quickly because this is probably like the best chance that the Canadians have

to win a cup in this competitive window, we'll say, before Carrier Price is making $10 million a year, while they have cap space, while, you know, Shea Weber's 32 instead of 35, you know, Patcheretti's still under 30. But, you know, at the beginning of the year, there was a lot of things that didn't go carry Price's way, and I thought for the most part he was playing okay.

Now, I don't know what it is if he's, you know, had a crisis of confidence, because honestly that can happen to any player, but it's more important for a goalie. So much of that game is mental, all about preparation and, you know, having confidence in yourself. If that's the problem with Kerry Price, maybe he just needs a week to recuperate, which, you know, this minor injury might give him anyway. But he doesn't look himself. You know, things have gone against him for sure.

I think Shea Weber alone has accidentally tipped like four goals in this year, and that's not the Shea Weber that people know. You know, Carl Olsner seems to tip one past him every single game, which is the Carl Olsner that I've watched for the, the last several years, but beyond that, he just doesn't look right. You know, he's making mental mistakes that Carey Price doesn't make. The game against Minnesota was brutal. I think Manny actually tweeted after the game that Price was like three and a half goals below expected in that game, which is absurd for a single game. Yeah.

You know, like, that's the kind of thing that you expect from an injury call-up that had like a brutal first start. I don't know what's exactly wrong with him because, you know, I don't know. I don't know Carey Price personally, but I have to assume that a big part of it is mental. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned the Shea Weber component of it because I feel like,

I don't know if the end of the year numbers were like this, but I remember at the start of the year, everyone was crowing about how, you know, he was proving Mark Bergen-in-smart because Gary Price was stopping everything behind him, and sometimes that stuff tends to even out. Yeah, I think last year it was like something like 12 or 13 games before Shea Weber was on the ice for an even-strength goal again.

Yeah, that's a pretty crazy amount. Grit. Great in character. Grit and character. It's all that shot blocking and net front clear in. Yeah, I think that's definitely the bigger concern for anyone with this team. Like the early season struggles to score goals. I mean, even if you just think about it logically guys like Patcheretti and Charles Hudon and Arturi Lekanen, like these guys are clearly talented players.

So even if, you know, even if they're not getting shots from the most ideal locations, you think just based on a volume perspective, eventually they'll start scoring more than the obscenely. a little amount they were before. I think that's, did we do our due diligence here on the haves? Is there anything more to get into there? Yeah, I would say one thing that I've been actually impressed with this season for the Canadians is they have, you know, they've had a focus on more pre-shot movement. And, you know, they haven't, they recently started getting some rewards for that, but for the first stretch of the season they hadn't, Jonathan Drewan's been fantastic at setting

up great shots. Alex Galcaneck has been brutal at getting his past, through, but he's attempting a lot. I don't know what's up with that or if it's just that he's, you know, a step behind, not prepared or what, or if it's just that he's playing with Mike McCarran and Torrey Mitchell instead of Brennan Gallagher and Max Patcheretti. But he's putting in the effort there, but the success rate is extremely low. Like, I think last year he completed like a team high, like 45 to 50% of his passes to the slot. And this year he's at like 13%. Yeah. Which is a huge change, you know, like, there's good things happening with the Montreal Canadians that haven't

borne fruit yet, but my question for this season is, is it already too late? You know, like, it's a lot to kind of make up for at the beginning of November, you know, because the problem is, like, it's not that it's impossible for them to make the playoffs, is that the margin of error is so low now, you know, like they can't have a three-game losing streak. They can't have, What can they be a 620 points percentage team the rest of the year, which is around what they would have to be? Theoretically, I'd say, it's possible. You think Montreal is that good? Well, of course it's possible. Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't think, I don't personally think Montreal is that good, but at the same time, I didn't think the Ottawa senators would make the conference finals last year. You and me both. Yeah, like, they're like a weird team, right? Like, you and I, Mike, we work with different analytics than what's publicly available.

I looked all year last year for something that told me that the Ottawa senators were not just, you. just like an okay team that got by, but a good team that would make it far. And I like there's nothing really there. They're good at certain aspects, but not in enough areas where you would expect them to have that kind of success and that they just keep doing it for whatever reason. Well, do you guys think like with that data you're looking at, I know Mike you mentioned earlier sort of their you know, their defensive prowess, especially in the neutral zone and we hear all the time about Gie Boucher system and how it leads to these results. do you think there's actually something to that or do you think it's a bit overblown

just because it's sort of different from what other teams are doing? I think there is something to it, no question. I mean, what they do essentially is they force turnovers and create transition in the neutral zone as good as or if not better than anybody. And that's a byproduct of the system that they play. What I think was undervalued last year is how much the goaltending really bailed that team out. I mean, it was sensational all year. And in the playoffs, Craig Anderson was fantastic.

From an expected goals against, from a goaltending standpoint, Craig Anderson was well above anybody else. I think Braden Holpe, and the model I looked at was second. And Bobrovsky was right behind him and Price was in there. But Anderson, he only played 40 games. If he had played 60 plus, he's in the Vesna conversation. He was great. The things that stand out to me in looking at Ottawa from a puck management standpoint,

in their own end, they are last in terms of the amount of times they turn the puck over. They're last in the amount of times that they're able to get the puck back. In the offensive zone, they turn it over more than anybody. They create the fewest opportunities off of forechecking and cycling. They're good off the rush, and that's, again, a byproduct of turning pucks over in the neutral zone, creating rush opportunities. There's so many areas that they're deficient that I thought this has to catch up to them. And it really didn't.

I mean, they got to within a goal of the cup final. And then this year, I think, okay, you can't be. this bad in so many areas that we know are critically important because we see the successful teams doing these things well year after year. And they still get a point. So, you know, I don't know where they're at in the standings today exactly, but I think they've won less than half their games, but they've gone to overtime a ton. They've got points in almost all their games. So are they a team that wins less than half their games, therefore not a great team? Or are they a team that gets points all the time? It's such a weird thing with the senators. And for too long, I've been

harping on it's going to catch up to them and it hasn't so you know maybe i'm getting to a point where i'm just wrong about this team but it i don't know how they do it other than the goaltending that it continues to be unsustainably good yeah six two and five and they're 13 games with a plus five goal differential it's just getting getting along one game at a time got to get those points man yeah i mean especially at the start of the year with uh you know with carlson missing those games it felt like they were due for that crash but hey they've managed to keep doing it and as you mentioned Craig Anderson's a great story. Well, and you'd think that, like, Carlson, he's saying he's not 100% and I watch him

playing. I'm like, you liar. Well, his sub-100% is like 120% for a real. He's not human. It's not fair to everyone else. But even, like you said, with Carlson out, you'd expect that they'd be exposed a bit more. And, like, you look at those games that he wasn't there.

And they played horribly, like, horribly. And they're still scraping out points time after time. and you have to wonder, like, is Gie Bouchet magic? Is he a wizard? Like, there's something with that team that can't, either can't be quantified or, you know, like they're running this luck streak that the Toronto Maple Leafs with 2013 to be jealous of. Okay, let's take a quick break here to hear from a sponsor, and we'll pick it back up on other side of things.

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Download the C Geek app, enter the promo code PDO today, and that's all there really is to it. That's promo code PDO for $20 off your first C Geek purchase. And now let's get back to the show. Okay, let's talk a bit about Vegas, because I haven't really talked about them much on this show throughout this season because I've been like sort of just waiting to get a few more viewings in of them and try to figure out what's going on. And obviously, I think as a case we've made, they've been sort of the most interesting or prevalent story of the season so far.

here's where I'm at with them and you guys tell me what you think um they're clearly better than we thought they were going to be uh definitely more competitive i think if you just look at the numbers for example um and this was a few games ago and i don't know how much it's changed but basically they're like they're treading water at five on five so they're not as they're clearly not as good as when they were winning all those games but they're not getting buried absolutely either which you would have thought they might heading into the year but what really stands out to me is their special teams appear to be rock solid. And I heard this theory floated around, which I think was an interesting one about

how it makes sense of their penalty kill would be so good because a lot of the guys they were picking from in the expansion draft were probably guys that were sort of filling that role for their original teams to begin with. It doesn't really explain why their power play is so good when it's like everything's running through Colin, Colin Miller and William Carlson and all these guys you wouldn't expect. But I guess the reason why I bring that up is I think it's an interesting debate where I'm a firm believer that special teams is sort of the area where coaches can have the biggest impact because you can really sort of game plan for it more so, whereas 5-1-5 sometimes just devolves into this kind of slog

where you're just grinding your opponent down. Whereas I feel like you can actually make noticeable tactical adjustments with where you're putting your guys or what sort of system you're running. Yeah, it's super weird with Vegas because like you said, from like a shot at times perspective and a lot of like Mani's expected goals on Corsica, they look like they're kind of treading water at even strength. And then I wrote about them for SportsNet a couple days ago, actually, and they're high danger scoring chances at even strength.

They're like 55% for, and like same with scoring chances on net. So like there's some things they're doing there that are, you know, close to the top of the league, which is super unexpected. And like you said, Colin Miller running their power play. And like James Neal is probably they're expected to be their best player. And he has been fantastic this year. but a lot of those guys that they picked were either underrated on their own teams or like maybe a notch below what you might expect.

Like Colin Miller was a guy that, like in Boston, I watched him and I thought this guy could step up a little bit further in the lineup. And then it just so happens that he could. Like some of those guys, when you expect them to be able to step up because their analytics are good, they kind of crumble when they get more minutes. But it just so happens that most of the guys at Vegas picked, they seem to be, thriving so far. You know, like, it may not last the whole season, and they probably won't make the playoffs

because, man, what unlikely thing that would be, but they're really entertaining to take in how much success they've had so far. And, like, how great is this for the NHL? Like, you couldn't have asked for something better to happen for the NHL this season than for Vegas to be legitimately competitive and, like, profitable right away. Well, especially, I mean, it was set up perfectly for them getting all those games out of the way early. and, you know, piling up the points.

Relatively easy, not easy, because everyone should beat them in theory as an expansion team, but the schedule wasn't terribly difficult. It was very home heavy. I was going to wait until their PDO got to like 106, 107 to really anoint them as, you know,

a star team to watch out for, Dimitri. Yeah. It's 106.7. That's the exact number? Okay, well, we'll wait until they get there. I feel like I should get royalties on the podcast or something, right? I think you should.

I think you should. We'll talk about it out when we get off there. All right. We'll handshake deal that one. But yeah, they, in a lot of areas, they appear fairly competent. Like, they don't give up a ton of really quality opportunities against, which I think has helped the fact that they're down to their third and four-string goalies. They haven't had to rely on the goaltenders as much as other teams do.

I think they've done a really good job of disrupting passing lanes in the defensive zone and keeping pucks out of the middle of the ice for the most part. That's helped them. They've scored more than we thought. but they were obviously running something unsustainable. Nobody is going to keep up what an 8 or 9-1 record. It's going to be difficult for them to keep up a 500 record, to be honest. But to your point that you made originally, I think it's a good one.

They are better than everyone thought they would be. And I think they'll finish the year better than everyone thought they were going to be. So, hats off to them. It's great. And the way they built the team was very obvious. It was not to be as competitive as possible this year. Right. It was to acquire draft picks and build for the future.

what a happy byproduct that, hey, out of the gate, we're coming out flying. Absolutely. Well, I think what worked in their favor is that the Panthers really just fumbled that entire situation where they, you know, Vegas basically gets like two top six forwards for nothing. And Riley Smith's been fantastic there too, right? And he kind of had a down year last year after being extremely good the first year in Florida. So that was an easy player to take a bet on, you know, and getting Marcia so at the same time. Like, I don't know what, I guess part of it is budget cutting in Florida.

like man they what a terrible offseason for them well that's what it was though yeah yeah so well the hilarious thing to me is uh you know there's there's long been this sort of if you're applying a money ball to hockey would be like don't invest too highly in your goalie because you know performance is very volatile and you feel like you can kind of slot someone in there and make work around them and they're really testing the up like outer limits of that with the goaltending they have right now I was joking that they should have a dance to legacy uh legacy scale for evaluating goalies when you see what the tipping point is for when you've gone too far. And it appears, I mean, based on the past couple of games,

they probably are eventually reaching that tipping point. Yeah, they've lost, what, three in a row now? Yeah, and they've all been sort of like, either they could have won those games or they've been, like, heartbreakingly in late fashion. Like, don't underestimate either when, and it's small sample sizes, but when a guy like Oscar Dance gets into a lineup, to prove himself for a couple of games,

and he looked good. I mean, he put up good numbers, and he looked good. He beat the Blackhawks in his first start. those guys can play above their heads a little bit four periods of time obviously these things you know the talent in the end will we'll decide it but um i think to the earlier point it was an absolute perfect storm for Vegas in every sense to begin with and it's great but playoff team probably not probably not um this is more like a sort of just deep like philosophical like existential question but you know with how much we analyze everything these days and really just you know

dissect everything and just how heavily everything is covered like it feels like with stories like this sometimes i can even feel it myself like it's tough to just sit back maybe as as we could have in the past and just be like you know what this is a fun story like let's just see where it goes whereas as soon as a team like Vegas starts outperforming what we expected from them there's like these two waves right there's the one where it's like well this is actually why they're doing it it's because of all these like hidden things and then there's the pushback from people going on like, oh, no, they're actually not this good. It's a bit of a PDO Bender.

And it's like, we can't just, we can't just enjoy the story for what it is. And sometimes I, as someone who does it myself, I understand that it's a bit ironic than I'm bringing it up. But I definitely kind of, I've been thinking about it this season. Yeah, I totally get you on that point. And I feel like that's what makes Vegas so interesting is that, like, there are aspects of their game that's super unsustainable, but there are aspects that they actually are performing really well.

So, like, you can kind of enjoy it no matter what perspective you're coming from, right? So, like, everyone knows, I'm sure Vegas knows that they're not going to keep going at this rate the whole season, right? But that doesn't necessarily mean that they shouldn't enjoy it while it's happening. I feel like that's something that, you know, like, I've tried to tell people when they get upset when I say, like, a team is not as good as their record or whatever. Or, like, if somebody's on a Cinderella run in the playoffs and, like, well, this team's probably not going to win the Stanley Cup. it's important to know what's going on, but at the same time, that knowing what's happening doesn't necessarily have to take away the fun you're having. I knew in 2010 when I was a Canadian fan that there was no way that that team was going to win the Stanley Cup.

They were terrible. You know, they really had no chance of beating the Washington Capitals, yet they did. And they had no chance whatsoever of beating the Pittsburgh Penguins, and then they did. So, like, sometimes I find knowing how overperforming the team is actually makes it, more exciting. Yeah. I think it's important to understand your audience, too. I mean, if you are an analyst and your job is to determine the outcome of a situation

as best as you can, then that's what you do, right? You say, okay, well, this team or this player is outperforming or underperforming, and you give your analysis and time will tell how accurate you are, and that's fine. If you're a Vegas fan, I mean, I remember one time sitting towards the end of a season in the stands at a game and there was a 10-year-oldish fan in front of me saying, saying, yeah, you know, if we win the next couple of games, we can make the playoffs, and it'd be great. And I knew that they weren't statistically eliminated from the playoffs, the team in question,

but because of certain head-to-head matchups that had to transpire and the fact that teams were going to get at least a point in those games, they were actually eliminated. Now, I could have said that and ruin this kid's day, but why are you going to do that? You're going to tell them Santa Claus? No, exactly. So, like, why would you do it? So I think there is a component that analysts and certainly statistical analysts forget sometimes, which is, you know what, just let a good story be a good story

and let the fans enjoy it. You don't always have to jump up and say, well, you know, what if this happens and look at their PDO and look at their expected this or that or whatever. But again, it depends what your audience is. So, you know, for every situation where you can point to a Vegas clearly because they were doing so well and say, well, this is obviously going to come down.

There's other situations too where there's teams that are underperforming and you can, again, just notice. your audience, I suppose, and if that's your job to point those things out, then go for it. Yeah. No, I think with them, I think definitely what stands out is just, I think competitive is the best word, like, especially like this team speed they seem to play with, which was pretty clearly a concerted effort of theirs when building this team, even though, you know, they realized they weren't going to get necessarily all these heralded big names, but it's guys that can just keep up with the pace of the game, and it seems like that team speed thing is really working for them.

something I really wanted to talk about quickly with you guys while we're still in Vegas. What were your guys thoughts on everything that transpired with Shippechev this season? I mean, that's how often do you see a team make a $9 million bet and then like renege on it within 30 minutes of ice time? Like that's a crazy, crazy situation. I mean, the thing about Shippa Chiv's situation is like you almost don't want to comment on it because it's so absurd that something had to happen that has nothing to do with hockey. There had to be a problem there. Because even when you look at the games that he did play, tiny, tiny, tiny sample size,

but he was actually quite good. So there's something more that's going on there that Vegas didn't like about him, but I don't know anything about it. So I don't want to assume anything. You know, like maybe he really, really liked Las Vegas. That's the only thing that I can imagine. Mike Johnson talked about this on the NHL network. So Google that.

That's pretty much, I think he did a fantastic job of explaining what happened there. And I have no knowledge of what happened internally, but the points Mike brought up just on the player side of things, I think it's easy to look at it and say, wow, you can't even evaluate this guy in such a little ice time. How can you cut ties? There is the other side to it,

which is, you know, what did they tell him and what was he expecting? And Mike did a good job of breaking it down. So, yeah, I think the thing that, kind of just irritated me a little bit about the entire situation, just based on the outside of what we know, is like, if you were so enamored with him in the first place as a talent that you would give him that $9 million commitment, which I don't even know if there was a big market in that regard. I don't know if they were bidding against anyone other themselves. Like, we just didn't see enough to know either way that's quite possible that his game doesn't translate to that NHL level. I mean, he's already, you know, he's a 30-year-old. It's a completely different game. Like, we've seen a lot of success. stories, but it's also quite possible that his game wouldn't translate. I just, I think in three games and 31 minutes total, how would you possibly be able to come to that conclusion, which makes me believe that, as you said, it must be something we don't know. Well, yeah, and I think the other thing is,

like, even if Vegas was determined after that much time that his game wasn't going to translate, like, for a player who did have a fair amount of fanfare the last couple of off seasons, you would think that putting him up for sale, for a trade, there'd be teams that we'd be teams that would bite, right? But none did. Like, Montreal Canadian is desperate, desperate for a scoring center. Maybe he could fit in a little bit better than Thomas Placanick on the power player or whatever, right? No bites.

I think someone that might be like the sort of just culture of hockey and all that, BS. Because, okay, here's the thing. Like, all the analysis on this guy as a player, it reeked to me a bit of that sort of still, like, outdated xenophobic stuff about Russians, where it's like if he was a guy from Minnesota or Saskatchewan, I don't think people will be talking about him in that way. Like he brought his family over from a different continent to, I assume Vegas told him he was going to play for their team. And then obviously when they send him down to the H.L.

I don't think it's as much of an entitled Diva thing as as as much as it is, well, we had an agreement. I am a KHL star and rightfully so, I think I should be playing in this league. And I think as a fan of hockey, beyond anything else, that's a disappointing with a story where even if there's a slight chance that he really is as good of a player as his KHL numbers would indicate. And as some scouting reports you would read would say, like the NHL is the best hockey league in the world. And that entails that all the best players are playing in it. And that's what I want to see. So whenever one of these guys goes overseas, that's, I think, the disappointing takeaway for me.

So to Andrew's point, though, if you're another GM, I mean, it didn't work out with Vegas and that's fine. I think probably he was told he was going to be the number one center in the team. And then he's like, I'm riding buses in the minors. what is this? I'm going back home. So no other GM took a bite on them. Would you? I wouldn't because I can't imagine you know enough

to make a two-year $9 million commitment on this guy. So would you do that on a waiver claim, I guess, within a day or would you give up assets for him? I wouldn't be comfortable doing it. What about if you're a team like Arizona? Well, I was thinking, what about if Vegas were like going to keep back some salary per se.

It might be somewhat worthwhile. I guess it depends on what your team is, right? Because that's the other problem, I think, with the situation is that in October, not many teams have much roster flexibility. Yeah. Right? Whereas like the Montreal Canadiens look like they do right now, but maybe they don't want to commit that $4.5 million next year when, you know,

they might have. Because Tavares is coming to town. Yeah, that's what they might think. I still don't buy it. But they can try. I mean, you know what, if they do, that's awesome, because I live in Montreal and I'll get to watch John Tavares. He's fantastic.

But I just don't buy it. We were asked in the conference, underrated type guys, whatever. Maybe John, and a lot of people named superstars. Yeah. Because as great as, you know, when Austin Matthews is, maybe he's even better than people think.

John Tavares plays in Brooklyn. Yeah. He's a pretty low profile guy. He trains in the off season. I mean, he could go to the bios steel camp in Toronto with all the PR. He doesn't. He goes to one that's a little quieter and that's personal preference.

no right or wrong, but he's got to be a top five forward in the NHL. He's incredible. And the thing that stands out to me is like obviously, you know, when he was coming into the league, there were skating concerns and he's clearly proven those wrong and quite, you can see that he's... Emphatically. Well, you can see that he's also like physically with your own eyes. You can see that he's improved at least to where he's a competent skater, but I still

wouldn't argue that, you know, he's this overwhelming physical talent that just blowing by dudes or, you know. Connor McDavid. Yeah. And the thing that I love about him is there is this sort of like, it just, it's the precision in his game where it seems like he does everything so well that it all adds up.

It's not, you can't point to this necessarily just one skill. I guess, you know, as a playmaker, he's a great passer, but it's like he just does everything well. Well,

to talk about the things you can't quantify, right? Competitiveness. And every player in the league is competitive, obviously. They wouldn't be there if they're not. Anyone that works or trains with him or is around and will tell you that he's a not.

above most and that's a part of it I mean world world class talent no question but like in in watching him in in Toronto even a little bit in the off season at the camp that he goes to messing up on a drill like that's that's ruining his day yeah so there is a there's a component there as well it's another thing that makes him great yeah yeah and I feel like that's a really good point because if you look at John DeVarres one of the things that fascinated me with the the summer project that I do for sports and that every year well I guess for the last two years basically trying to rank the top 20-ish players at each position and you get to like break down the components of their game

like how good are they offensively in transition defensively and John Tovar as over the last three seasons has gone from legitimately bad defensively to okay defensively to last year he could have been a Selke candidate and like that kind of like clearly there was a purposeful change in his game

where he was like I'm not good enough defensively I need to improve and like I remember talking to Islanders fans a couple years ago that like you know Tavares is an amazing score but he's not a great possession driver. Look at it in the last couple years now like his possession numbers are phenomenal and you know like like Mike said there's certain guys that have like everybody is a good competitor but there's guys that are just that much crazier when it comes to like improving their own game and always being on. Sydney Crosby's one of those John Tavares is one of those they're just like they're not of the same mindset as normal people you know like

they have this extra gear that doesn't exist for most of us. It's an obsession. It's like the Tiger Woods mindset. You're the best in the world, but I'm going to change my swing anyways and be bad for a while to get even better when you don't have to, but you do it. Yeah, no, I love that. I mean, obviously Krazy's like the best example where in his first season, everyone was talking about how he was a liability at the draw and then all of a sudden he comes back. He's like the best to face off guy in the league and you're like, well. And I think he's the best this year as well with the new faceoff rules. He's like 55. There are sort of like machines where it's one of those things where I would totally believe like if you just tell him one thing even if it's not true like he's going to spend the entire summer just

trying to put it wrong right it's it's it's remarkable um well speaking of the penguins yeah well i was going to say one before you move on don't ruin my segue like that i'm sorry i'm gonna ruin it i'm i'm gonna ruin it demetri do you remember when he was criticized for not scoring goals and then he changed his sick and scored like 55 the next year yeah yeah well and remember the concussions had caught up to him a couple years ago and um yeah the coach was fired and and sullivan came in and to me that had everything to do with the injuries on the back end and the the style that they played, which wasn't conducive to getting these guys to puck and up the ice with speed, which is what they do best, that changes. And all of a sudden, oh, Pittsburgh wins a cup. And

then they win the cup again. And then Crosby's the best again. And I'd tie that a little bit back to Price where it's just people can go through little lulls, whether it's system-based or personnel-based or just a slump. Yeah. The body of work suggests, yeah, Crosby was going to be fine and he was. And you'll see it with price as well, I think. Right. Yeah, you go with the larger track record. Well, so speaking of the Penguins, you know, They've been an interesting team this year because they're still winning games. They're hanging around in a playoff spot right now, but you look and I think they have, I mean, they're minus 14 in goal differential, and I believe only like Arizona and Buffalo

are worse than them at this point. And a lot of that is they've had three absolute stink bombs where they lost 7-1, and 10-1 on the road. And they're playing anti-neemmy in some of those games. Yes, that also does not help. But, I mean, Murray was in for some of that as well. And, you know, I'm curious for your guys take in terms of if we're ranking, this on like, let's say, a zero to ten panic meter on the penguins.

And 10 being, you should be freaking out and shaving your head and running around the streets naked. And CRO just being, you know, they'll be totally fine. They're as good as they were in the past few years. Where would you, where were you guys at right now? I think I'd have it at like a three. Because when you look at the penguins loss, I think all of them are on back, second half of back to backs, aren't they?

On the road as well. Yeah, exactly. So they've had like a vicious schedule to start the year. And I think they also lead the league this year in back-to-back games. So it's a pretty tough schedule. They have some depth issues for sure. You know, like losing Nick Benino probably hurt more than they expected it to in terms of like their center depth, especially when they lost Matt Cullen at the same time.

I don't think Greg McKay is, you know, that good. Might not even be an NHLR, but he's their third line center. Is it a takes? People come to the PEOCast for it. I guess maybe Riley Sheehan's maybe the third line center after that trade. But still, I mean, Riley Sheen's not ideal. Nothing to write home about it. And, you know, it shows you, even if you have Crosby and Malkin,

if you're weak at a position further down the lineup, sometimes it can really hurt you. But I don't know, they won the last two Stanley Cups. Even if they don't win this year, they don't get too far. Like, if you're a Penguins fan, how upset can you really be at this point? And maybe they're in a situation right now where, you know, where Chicago was after their first cup where they had to rebuild a little bit on the fly and they had a couple down years before they won again.

Yeah, I'd probably put it at a four, maybe a five. I was going to say like a nine, because you're playing with your hair there for a second. No, no, I think it is to the points Andrew talked about, I think are good ones. You lose Colin and Benino down the middle. That's significant. And you can talk about an interchangeable bottom six forwards might be,

but when you're competing for a Stanley Cup, we've seen how important third lines can be in a cup final or in the playoffs. there are significant roles there and they've obviously taken a step back in that area. They lost pieces on the back end as well, a couple of good defensemen. So I was going to talk about this in the segment that I do weekly on the NHL network last week

and I stopped myself, even though it was the biggest story of the day because I said, look at the schedule they've had, look at the back-to-backs they've had. There's a lot there that may be suggesting that this team is not as poor as the results have indicated so far. And they're still winning games, which is crazy. The losses, like you say, it's

been so lopsided. But I think in the first week of the season, they had two back-to-backs where they had to travel to the second back-to-back. Right. So it's as tough as it gets. The truth is probably, to me, somewhere in the middle where, yeah, they've lost significant components, and I don't think they're as good as they were last year at all. But the schedule's been so bad. I was going to give it another week or two and see if things played out a little better. Their defensive numbers have been really poor. But I think a lot of it is for reasons to be on their control. Well, the tough thing is I was looking at this actually, and their schedule has been really

tough. They also have 16 more back-to-backs, I believe, this year. They've got the most in the league, right? They have most in the league. Yep. And Michael Blake McCurdy does a good job of this where he plots, you know, like if you're a rested team playing a tired team and vice versa. And, you know, there's way more occasions where they're playing on a second of a back-to-back against a team that's had the night off before, whereas, you know, they're not really getting that luxury either and that's going to be tough.

So it's one thing to say they've had a tough schedule so far, but they sort of need to figure something out here. And I think that's where, you know, with the fatigue and all the hockey they've played the past few years, that's probably the depth plays into that even more so, right? Yeah, I wonder if we'll look at this at the end of the year as Pittsburgh is maybe a third in the division team or even a wild card team that gets into the playoffs because they're going to have to play their backup goalie a significant amount. Right now they don't really have an NHL backup goalie.

if they're a team that's not going to put up a ton of points this year, but then the playoffs start, and then it's just you start rolling in that Pittsburgh style, and they could do some damage, obviously, as they've done the last couple of years. So I wonder if there'll be a team that doesn't sneak in, but isn't a one seed or isn't a team that everyone's like, well, they're the favorites again.

But in a playoff series, that lineup can still do a lot of damage, obviously. Yeah, well, the thing with them is, I mean, I'm at like a five on the concern meter, and there's definitely red flags. You mentioned the defensive concerns. I believe they're either 30th or 31st, pretty much in every five-on-five category

in terms of what they're giving up against. So obviously the fact that the goaltending is struggled only compounds that further, but there are red flags. At the same time, they have Crosby and Malkin and Kessel. It's hard to bet against those guys. I don't want to be the idea that writes them off. And as you mentioned, all they need to do

is really make the playoffs because all of a sudden, I don't think any team would want to play them. Mike and Dimitri agreeing on in-depth analysis. There we go. It's a new day. We're having fun here. But and there is this like, you know,

we're talking about character and all this stuff you can't quantify. Like with a team of the penguins, I'm willing to give them a bit more leniency because if you're them, like, I don't want to get too like, you know, in depth here with analyzing their psyche and what they're thinking as people. But like after all this success you've had the past few years, do you really care about a random mid-November game? I mean, maybe you do if you're a fringe guy

and you're trying to stay in the lineup, but if you're one of the top guys, like as long as you stay healthy and stay within striking distance, like I could see this team, especially if they have a good trade deadline and they acquire a few depth pieces, really being a team that skyrocket's kind of like the year

where Mike Sullivan took over and all of a sudden the second half we were just like, oh crap. Yeah, I can see it. And I feel like also, like, I think it was Jim Rutherford recently brought up like how much hockey they've played. it's a good point.

I mean, you'd think that it would be like Crosby and Malkin that are the most tired, but they look fine after they have the World Cup as well. Yeah. Like, they've, I don't know what the exact number is, but it's got to be almost 200 games in the last, like, 24 months for those guys. So it's a lot of hockey, a lot of hockey in the playoffs, which is brutal. And, you know, they won the Cup last year, but they didn't have any easy series. You know, like no team gave them an easy run.

Even the Ottawa Senators, they struggled to eliminate. uh you know the black the blue jacket series was pretty well i think they got pretty lucky yeah the blue jackets were hard on they kind of just blitz them and bobrowski had a rough series that would be the easiest one yeah if you could say that for sure but even then like you know the washington series it kind of like because washington lost everyone kind of wrote them off as like oh that was an easy series for the penguins again but like that was a pretty tough fought series where the penguins were getting trumped pretty hard and scoring oh sorry i'm like scoring chances and shot attempts every night so but what about the high danger that's true in the high

major chances that the penguins were ahead. But even in the finals, I don't think the penguins were the better team in the final. I think they kind of got lucky towards the end there. And then Crosby went to superhuman from the last three games. No Joe Hansen, that could have been very different too, right? Yeah, well, Nola Tang for the Penguins as well. Yep, which I don't know. That surprised me.

What did you think, Demetri? That surprised me. That was why I said Pittsburgh won't repeat, really, is Nola Tang. I thought that would be too big. Yeah, I thought it was too. Yeah, I did as well. And then that sort of reinforces this idea I have now where I'm not writing. off Crosby and Malkin because

until they don't win they're going to win. I also thought that the Washington Capitals were going to win last year. Like, you know, the last five years, six years. Are we off that train, though? Like, is there anything Washington can do in a regular season? Because they win 75 games. And they're not doing well this year, but like, is there anything they could do in a regular season

that would make you think, okay, this is the year Washington does it. Like, I know. I can't get on that wagonage. Because last year was that year for me. I mean, you looked at the depth, and especially with Lars Eller, dominating, and you're just like, there are no way. And then they get Kevin Shattercock at the deadline. You're like, there is literally.

not a single hole on this team. And then they still got tripped up in the second round. I don't know what. Life's not fair sometimes. I would not put money on it. That's what I'll say. But I wouldn't rule them out winning just because they're still a very good team. And here's what the Penguins have going for them.

Someone asked me this the other day and I thought long and hard about it. Who's actually good in the league? Tampa. Yes. I think Tampa top to bottom is legit. I've Vasilevsky to me. Him and Matt Murray, you know,

the connection there is a couple of goalies. I thought a couple years ago. These are the best guys that aren't starting goalies in the world. world. And now they both are. I think he's the real deal. The defense, I mean, Victor Headman, a lot of people can argue maybe Carlson Burns, who's the best defenseman. There was that debate for the Norris last year. I think the most complete defenseman in the league is Victor Headman in terms of just doing everything at a very, very high level. And then the forward depth now with Stamco's back. You can find ways to pick apart a little bit, but I think

Tampa is the best team in the NHL. Thought at the start of the year, I still think there, do you think Pittsburgh? But a playoff series is different too, right? So what's that like in a playoff series between those two teams? That could be interesting. I'd like to see how well Stamcoast does this year, like a full healthy year

because I've never seen him more motivated. Like, he looks unbelievable out there. Well, and I wrote about this this week for Sportsnet.com, but the power play with Kutcherav and Stamco is, I think, the most fun thing going in hockey right now. Because you have So you obviously have headmen at the top as working as the hammer,

and you got to respect this shot. But it's one of those things where Stamco's and Kutrov have both shown them. We know they can score, but they've both shown themselves to be capable as passers as well. So it's like it's one of those things where they're working this cross-ice magic. And if you're the other team, generally when you're lining up against, as penalty killers against a different team's power play,

you can like lock down one guy sort of. Or you just have it in your mind. You know where the puck wants to go. With this team, it's like, where do you go? You're just scrambling all over the place. When did you write this article? I believe it went up on either Wednesday or Thursday. Okay.

It's just funny again because we're seeing things through the same lens a lot here. I did something on the NHL. Are we going to start our own spin-off podcasts? I don't know, man. Like, you have most unlikely duo of all time. The 106.7 podcast. There you go. Well, maybe it could be on 106.7 FM, right?

Get it on the radio. There you go. I did something on the NHL network talking about Kutrov's value on the power play and just how he was more valuable there has been than anybody, because the things I looked at, carrying the puck into the zone, he's first on the team, top 20 in the league, receiving passes he's first on the team, completing passes he's first on the team.

So when you're first in the league in both of those areas, getting passes into the middle of the ice, he's first on the team. He's first in so many areas that, to me, he does more for that power play than any player does for any power play. And it also was the second best at the time in the NHL. And to your point, what I found interesting in watching the video that corresponds with a lot of this information, is the East-West Stamcoast, and then when it's not working, well, there's Victor at the point.

Like, it's, what are you going to do? I mean, that's, that's as lethal as it gets. And I mean, you watch this, like, so this came up during our panel when we were talking about the most underrated players in the league, and we mentioned that, you know, maybe guys at Matthews and McDavid and Crosby are underrated because of all the stuff, how easy they make it on their teammates. And you see that a lot with Kucharov now, where, you know, he scored 40 goals last year, and it's basically all on just deadly wrist shots. And he's getting that respect around the league now is one of the most lethal one-shot scorers. So now guys are kind of

coming closer to him and paying more attention to his shot. But I think there's a case to be made he's more of a playmaker even, which is a scary thought to think about. And all of a sudden, on all these highlights, when you go back and watch some of this tape, it's like Stamco's just standing at the left circle with his stick up for a one time or just waiting and just like an empty net

in front of him. And that's amazing. And then you talk about a guy like Vladna Mastikov who I also really like, he's playing with him at 515, but on the power play he's working that sort of around the net area. And like sometimes he's just hanging out there by himself, like drinking a nice little mojito, just hanging out. Like there's no, there's no one within the same area code as him.

So it's remarkable. Yeah. It's almost like that power play has so many weapons on it that are like perfectly formatted for a power play that, you know, there are power plays that get hot and go cold. This one doesn't look like, it probably will at one point now that I said it. Right. But it doesn't look like a power play that will have struggles because there's too many weapons, right? Like, if Kutrov shot Kool's down a little bit, and I think he's shot like 30%

over the last 35 games, it'll happen. Yeah. They'll just go to Stamcoast. If he cools down and Kutraov cools down, they'll go more to Victor Hedman at the point and start tipping pucks in. Like, there's just so much going on there that teams can't adequately cover it down to men. Like, it's just, that's what a power play should be. Yeah. I talked to an ex-player about power plays yesterday, and one thing he brought, it wasn't Tampa in particular, but he was saying the team he was talking about was struggling and he's saying, yeah, they've got basically two plays they do and that's it and other teams have picked up on it. So to your point about Tampa, I think having different available options and maybe you're hamstrung by personnel with some teams too, right? But

predictability on the power play, like I'd love to do an in-depth look at what each team does, you know, one or two plays that they set up the most and look at power plays that have several different options, even if they don't have the same quality of personnel on the ice and just see if having more options means you're going to have a better power play. I think there's something to be said there as well. I completely agree. I mean, the predictability of it, right? You're keeping the bone of guessing.

I don't know. Is there anything else we want to talk about here? Like, you know, we're just talking about the lightning. Oh, we were talking about so who's good in the league? Who's good? Oh, for teams. Yeah. I was like, I don't know, lots guys.

There's lots of players, yeah. There's some good players in there. Like out east, I think it's like that top three still with, I'm giving the capital as a benefit of the doubt, although. Really? I put Columbus over them at this point. I think Washington lost a lot of good pieces. They did.

They did. They really did. I think better pieces than that Pittsburgh lost. And I mean, you know, Nate Schmidt's a guy who's, you're seeing him in Vegas now and helping that team. Yeah. I mean, Pittsburgh Tampa to me and then I'd probably throw Columbus in the three spot. That's right. You know what?

I get ragged on a lot for not showing Columbus respect. I'm going to put the blue jackets there. I feel like this start of the year has been really weird, right? every year, like, the start is a little bit weird with the standings, but I don't think that, like, outside of Tampa and maybe Columbus, like, most of the teams that I expected to be good haven't got out to great starts. Yeah.

Like, I think the Edmonton Oilers are legitimately a really good team. As much as I have some problems with their construction on defense and maybe a little bit, they need some depth. But, like, there's some good teams out West that haven't shown it, right? And I think the same thing with the East. Like, there's just, it feels like, Right now, Tampa and Columbus are probably the only two teams that are crazy competitive for the Stanley Cup because they have the good roster, plus they've actually had the record to back it up. But there's got to be some other teams in there.

LA looks legitimate to me. They look legitimate, but I'm not buying it defensively yet. I feel like Jonathan Quick's been great, but I don't like Quick as a goaltender. I like them. You know what's crazy? and it was the 10th game of the year against St. Louis before he allowed a goal from outside the slot. And that to me is one of those things where I see,

okay, he's not going to obviously do this, the repeatability, I won't even get into any of that. It's just one of those unique things. It's like, wow, like I look at where the goals have gone in on him. Everything is right in front of him. Like he's been, you talk about Carrie Price having problems? Jonathan Quick has had no problems. Well, I'd be very curious.

I have to profess I haven't put the work in here myself, but just looking, going back and watching those games and comparing him to past seasons if he actually has fundamental. mentally, you know, tightened it up a little bit because obviously the athleticism was always there, but sometimes just get far too out of position, right? Yeah. And that's always been the critique of him. And if he has tightened that up, then all of a sudden I'd be willing to believe that he's

going to have better results than he had in the past, even if he won't keep up what he's doing right now. Yeah, we'd have to have a goalie expert on the podcast. We don't know any of those. I played Pee-Web goalie growing up. Don't think that qualifies me as an expert, though, right? No, I think I only got to add him as a goalie. Yeah, the blue jackets are legit. What do you think about the stars?

I don't know. I mean, they're one of those teams that they kind of remind me of like the senators if the senators were good, right? They're super top heavy. Yeah. Like I don't have much respect for the star's depth players. But man, that top top end, like the top four forwards. I know Spets has had a bit of a struggle to start the season,

but those top four forwards are incredible. And now like Ratchelov had a rough start to the year, and now he looks incredible. I believe they're, I think they've actually become the number one power of play so far in terms of efficiency converting. And again, it makes sense, right?

Because you've got all those weapons. Exactly. So if they can kind of shore it up and Hitchcock's been known to do this at 5-1-5, and they've been a really good 5-15 team so far, they could potentially be dangerous. I agree the depth is a concern, but. But at least they have.

I wasn't, top shots now. Yeah, that helps. Man, letting in Niam, I mean, there was nothing going there for a lot of years. That was a team, I didn't buy it at the start. when everyone's talking about, you know, look at the additions they made,

and now they're going to be maybe elite in the division or in the conference. I still kind of thought they battle for a wildcard spot. I still think that they will. That's depth issues you talk about. But a couple of years ago, Dallas added some significant pieces, and people were hyping them at the start of the year as well. And it didn't pan out. And I think they still have some of the same flaws,

which is why I'd be kind of hesitant to put them in that upper echel on. But I've been wrong before. We'll see where it goes. All right. I feel like Dallas has been awarded the, like, off-season cup so often that I'm always bullish on them. Jim Nails the off-season MVP. Yeah, but, yeah, it seems like they're starting to put together a bit better of a roster here, and they've got to a bit more depth this year, even if it's not the best depth.

They've got some, you know. What do you guys think about St. Louis? I was just going to say about St. Louis. No, not the same thing, but they've got off to a really good start. I like them better as an option in that division. and pick them to win the division at the start. Oh, no, I picked Minnesota, man. They've been beaten up with injuries.

Yeah. Still like Minnie. Yeah. But who is it, Bommister that's out still? Yep. And Fabry's probably out for the full season. Fabry's done. That's so bummer.

Berglund, who I think is undervalued player in terms of the versatility that he has, is out. So when they start getting some of these pieces back, I mean, look at the record now and the way they're playing. I think St. Louis could be a legitimate threat. But again, we go down that rabbit hole every year, it seems. Yeah. Well, I think it's one of those things where I think they're going to win a lot of games and they're going to be a very competitive team. They're Washington West, right? Yeah, in terms of cup viability, I still...

Do you think some of them just as a byproduct of the playoff format are kind of... Maybe if the playoff format's different, Washington's getting to conference finals on a number of occasions and the narrative's a little bit different. Well, yeah, I mean, especially last year, there was the whole thing about, like, if you broke it down one to 16 seating or whatever and who everyone was playing and it was ridiculous where it was like... Yeah. the seventh and the eighth best teams in the league we're playing and then like the seven what like what's your optimal playoff format i'm i would love to see well okay first off this is my optimal optimal playoff format it would be teams picking who they play i think that would be make for amazing television just like a live like the old uh yeah yeah yeah and i've heard they do this in

sweden and you know eventually kind of just like with everything after a while lose its luster and people just becomes predictable and boring but i think like i mean it's never going to happen because, you know, so many good character guys that bring you back to everything the character in hockey. You know, and would ever want to offend anyone. But, man, that would be, like, imagine all, like, so let's say even if it's justifiable and you pick the worst team to play,

all of a sudden, there you have that whole, like, nobody believes in us theory, and it's be great. Yeah. Guy Bouchet loves that. Yeah. But I feel like one, one thing that you have to fix before you can actually fix the playoff seating is the standings.

The standings are broken. Like, I know nobody wants to get rid of, of the overtime point or whatever, but I think they have to. Either that or they've got to switch to a three-point win, because like the Ottawa senators, for example, who are really six and seven are what, six, two, and five? Right. Like, enough already. Like, as far as I'm concerned, I know people don't want to lose points in a shootout,

but if it were me, it would be two points for a win, zero for a loss, and that's it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you on that. It'd be so hockey, though, if they did it your way, Demetri, and the GM was just like, well, I'm just going to pick the team that we should have played it. Oh, that's totally what happened. That's exactly what happened. But you know what? If I was a GM, that's probably what I would do, because if you pick the worst team and you lose, that's a fireable offense.

I know. If you pick any team and you lose, it's a fireball offense. No. So I'd be like, who were we supposed to play? Yep, them and then it's not on games. That'd be such a hockey thing to do. I'd love to see, like, if two teams that were rivals were like great at the same time, and then the team that finishes the head picks their rival just to get them out earlier. You know, like, if you're super confident in your team. Imagine that. Like, say, like, the Calgary Flames and Emington Oilers finish one, two, in the league.

And the Edmonton Oilers walk up to the podium and, like, we're facing the Calgary Flames in round one. Drop the mic? Yeah, just like, that would be amazing. But it would never have. Never. Absolutely never. Always go with the least fun option. Yeah, it's going to happen to league.

Guys, let's plug some stuff. Where can people find your work? And what can they expect from you moving forward? You can find me on Twitter at Mike Kelly NHL, NHL. weekly on Wednesdays on the NHL network. And I believe something fairly exciting coming up that's not entirely done, but we'll hope to have that done soon.

That's what we call a tease. That's what we call a tease. And we'll talk again if and when that happens. But yeah, right now Mike Kelly, NHL on Twitter, and always enjoy talking to people and getting different perspectives. Andrew, plug the 48 different different. different places you write at. Yeah, I know. Mostly you can find me on Twitter at Andrew Berkshire, but I write for SportsNet, RDS, sporting news, and vice. And I've also got a podcast that

sometimes I do, but I haven't done for like two months. Cool. Well, yeah, you've been busy with fatherhood. Yes, that's the new thing. That's a new thing. You and I will do some more podcast soon because we need to do our top 10 series. That's right. So we'll do that eventually. Yeah, we'll do that soon. Anyways, guys, thanks for taking the time of chat and we'll catch up soon. P-D-O-Cast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim-Philippovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockeypedio-O-Cast.