The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 211: You're Underrated, Until You're Overrated

Episode Date: December 14, 2017

Andrew Berkshire joins the show to help rank the best players in the league currently inhabiting the wing positions. Topics discussed include: 3:41 Honourable Mentions 10:49 Jaromir Jagr's last stand 17:26 Revisiting the Saad for Panarin swap 22:14 Separating David Pastrnak from his linemates 25:15 Potential Mike Hoffman landing spots 31:08 The pros and cons of Alex Ovechkin 37:30 Gaudreau, Forsberg, and elite puck skills 46:49 Max Pacioretty's bumpy path to 35 goals 54:22 Spreading out the wealth up front in Dallas 1:01:20 Blake Wheeler and the Jets Top 6 1:06:00 The Top 5 Sponsoring today’s show is SeatGeek, which is making it easier than ever before to buy and sell sports and concert tickets. They’re giving our listeners a $20 rebate off of their first purchase. All you have to do is download the free SeatGeek app and enter the promo code PDO to get started. Also sponsoring the show is FanDuel, the PDOcast’s one-stop shop for Daily Fantasy Hockey. They’ve set up a contest for listeners of the show to compete in, which will be running every Thursday evening. To join in on the fun, just go to fanduel.com/PDO and make sure to let them know that we sent you. Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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Welcome to the Hockey P.D.O.cast. My name is Dimitra Filippovich. And joining me is my good buddy, Andrew Berkshire. Andrew, what's going on, man? Not much. Not much. I just, you know, woke up a little bit early and started finishing my rankings because we're doing the top 20 wingers today. I actually like this because it's a bit of a challenge to try to, like, mix right and left wingers and figure out who fits where. And I'm not in top. entirely happy with my list, so that makes it, like, good for conversation. Yeah, you woke up early. I'm three hours behind you.

So how do you think? Yeah, I know. I was explaining that to, uh, to my wife this morning that, uh, your, your, uh, your early schedule kind of sucks right now. Yeah, I'm a maniac. But you know what? Someone's got to do it. And, um, yeah, I think the, putting this stuff together.

I mean, obviously, um, you know, just for the sake of relative brevity and not, um, doing that many shows on these rankings, but also I think it makes it an interesting exercise because we're providing sort of, you know, further context and comparing how, you know, the fourth right winger,

for example, might stack up against like the seventh left winger or something like that. And, you know, it helps that these two positions are much more interchangeable and comparable. It would make much less sense if we were, you know, just putting everyone together and comparing like Oliver,

when Larsen versus Nicholas Baxter or something like random like that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's, there's some like subtle differences between left and right wing but i don't think there there's enough that you can't directly compare uh wingers across the league you know like we can mention different roles as we go through them it's not uh something that takes a lot of time yeah i'm cool

with that um should mention just as a housekeeping note that this is the uh we did you and i did centers uh back on episode 205 defenseman on 207 and i did goalies with our buddy and nick mercadante on episode 200 so if anyone's missed any of those go back and check those out um and with that said i'm i'm kind of stalling a bit here because um i don't even really have a list i got to be honest with you right now you're just flying by the city of your pants well like i put i put like a preliminary list together and then i was tinkering it with it so much and i hated it and it's it's so tough uh there's so there's so many good wingers um it's like i feel like when we did I mean defensemen was a bit tougher when we did centers for sure like we did the top 10 and then I had maybe like five honorable mentions and I felt pretty good about it and I didn't feel like I was leaving anyone out in this case like I feel like somewhere between the 12th guy or something like that and like the 35th guy there's like you just put a bunch of names there and it'll be fine like there's just so many quality players to consider this position that it made it a bit overwhelming so I didn't I don't I don't want it to sound like when we go with like

or 20th guy that's going to be some definitive thing where he's way better than the 21st guy. Yeah, I feel like once you go past the top 10 of something, you know, you're getting into the range where, you know, like you said, 12th or 15th to like 35 are all really good players and it's really tough to pick through those players and decide like where, like who belongs and who is just on the outside. So should we do like a couple honorable mentions? Sure. Let's, well, okay, so like we did for the past positions, let's do like, you know, whenever you do a list like this, there's going to be guys that missed a cut that are doing so that would have been on the list in past years, but maybe, you know, they're past their prime right now and they've declined a little bit.

And then, you know, you have that sort of next wave of guys that aren't quite or haven't shown us enough yet to merit being on this list. But if we did it next year or two years from now, they definitely would be. So there's like those two camps there. So let's do a couple names from each. Okay, so in terms of guys that probably would be there next year, but aren't there for me yet, I've got Victor Arvinson. And Jonathan Hubertow as well is just on the outside. Yes. For Victor Arbidson, it's kind of interesting because I agree.

I mean, he's obviously a heck of a player and he's playing on a very team-friendly deal. The question for him is, you know, it's going to be. tough to separate his exploits, at least right now, from who he's playing with, because he is in a pretty great role. So it's kind of tough to, you know, necessarily just point to his own contributions and say, you know, this is definitively his own doing. And the other thing is, I mean, you know, he's already, I mean, he's in his age 25 season now, which isn't old by any means, but it's also he's been around for a while and it took him a bit later to break out. So it's, you know, he only has really like that one and a half years I now, I guess, now approach. of really good production, the top line player. And then he had that, like, season or two before where he was more of a fourth line

guy that was sparingly used, but his rate stats were amazing. So for a guy, his age, he doesn't necessarily have the track record that you'd expect for a player that's been so productive. Yeah, I totally agree. And it's tough to separate a guy off of one of the best lines in the NHL. Those three are just incredibly dynamic together. And, you know, I think you could probably see the same thing for Hubert over. right?

If you were to take him off of Barkov's wing, who knows what we'd be saying about him? Because, like, Alex Snyder Barkov is probably the most underrated player in the NHL. So I think it's always those types of guys who are on those, like, killer lines, especially the wingers, you have like a little bit less confidence in putting them, like, in that upper, upper echelon of players. I agree. Yeah, a couple contributions to this list that I'll have. have are uh how about uh nick eelers and patrick liney who i couldn't jam into this list i mean

especially elers at this point but um you know they're just so dynamic and such different makers offensively that it's quite conceivable that maybe not as soon as next year but definitely at some point in the future they're going to be making uh regular appearances on a list like this yeah absolutely and i think along similar lines but not the same just guys that have had like really great starts of the season that didn't quite make the inclusion for me is that jaden schwartz didn't quite make it even though he's been incredible this year his past history isn't quite at the level that would push him in there and uh jake vorechak has just fallen right right below just right below for me yeah i think man that's tough i mean that i think that i know

right there speaks to uh the quality of this list right um yeah i the thing we'd Jane Schwartz, it's super frustrating because I guess last year he played 78 games, so maybe this is unfair, but I always feel like he's kind of like been in and out of the lineup in the past, and obviously now he's out with injury, and that's such a bummer because that, you know, you wrote above the top lines in the NHL a while back, and that combination with Schwartz, Teresenko, and Braden Shen has been otherworldly, and, you know, Schwartz is a big driving force for that. Obviously, Teresanko, who's going to be very high on this list for us, and you should get some love to Brayton Shen here as well because I was, I don't know how you felt about it, but I was pretty critical of,

I don't say critical, but I just wasn't a fan of his game, and I felt like he was benefiting a lot from being in a great opportunity as the trigger man on that Flyers power play last season, and I felt like he was highly overgraded based on sort of name value and maybe what he was as a prospect coming up into the league, and I wasn't sure he was going to make that big of a difference for the blues, and, you know, he slots in as basically their number one center and looks amazing and obviously it's a great opportunity for him as well but he's definitely

taking the advantage of it as much as possible yeah he's uh he's impressed me a heck of a lot because like you said i was i was always a bit skeptical of shen i mean the points were always there the point production's always been pretty good but he's mostly been a power play guy he's not a big even strength driver and you know he like he said he's in a great slot this year uh it kind reminds me of like falling into a plum job like uh philippe deno did last year with max patty and alex radilov obviously brayden chan's a much better finisher so that worked out a lot better for him but it it shows like what putting a guy who's good but not great in with like two great great wingers can do so i don't know i'm still a little skeptical that he's this good you know but

great for him. I mean, you can't help it be happy for the kid. Yeah. I guess he's not a kid anymore. Yeah. For the grown ass man,

you can't help feel happy for him. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I figure, I still call like Sidney Crosby a kid

and he's like six months younger than me. Yeah. That's a tough one. I mean, the Jake Warcheck thing is, is tough for me

because I really want to put him on this list. If only to sort of recognize how how, you know, I feel this urge to give him a lot of credit just because he gets beaten up sometimes for just stuff that's out of his control. And especially he's, I feel like he's really just been unfortunate in terms of the percentages in the past few years.

And he's just a heck of a player. And you see sometimes when he's on his game and everything's going that he's, you know, it's not necessarily thought of this way, but he's just kind of one of those dominating, overwhelming power forwards. and you can't get the buck away from him and he seems like he's the best player on the planet. So I wanted to give him some love. But no, you're right. I mean, I guess an honorable mention for him at this point would be good.

Yeah, he's the kind of guy where, like, you know how good he actually is, even if the results haven't been there for the previous couple years. They're there this year. But like, you want to include him just because the way he plays is like extremely pleasing. Yeah. You know, he's really fun to watch. he's an easy player to support if you're at all analytical so it's hard to just put him on the outside looking in okay well let's let's let's go with your uh your 20th spot here who do you who do you have starting this list okay mildly controversial but i'm putting him in just because

i can and his results continue to be amazing yarmur yager the mid 40s wonder i debated whether or not putting him like on the honorable mentions because he hasn't had like the most amazing start this year but you know still you look at his underlying numbers he's still just crushing it he's just been dealing with some injuries see that's that's a tough one for me because if i guess it depends on our criteria like we are obviously doing just for right now so you don't really factor in his age unless you know you're declined here you're worried he's going to be suffering from injuries because of it but yeah it's man that's a tough one i i i feel like 20 other names I'd rather have on him on this list,

which makes it tough for me to put him on, like if I had my pick of the litter and I was building up my team right now. Oh, yeah, he wouldn't pick him. No, but even if it was like just for this season, I feel like it'd be tough to make the case for him over. Like, I don't know, is, is Nino Nieder Rider are going to be on this list for you?

He is for me, yeah. He's pretty high. Okay, what about, uh, Like a Matt Zuccarello. Zuccarello is not. No. See, I find it tough to believe that Yarmory Yager at this point is a bigger impact player, difference maker than Matt Zuccarello's.

Oh, really? I like Zicorello, but I don't think that he's as big of an even-strength guy as Yarmor Yager. He's just like, I think there's also an added benefit to Yager that kind of doesn't get stated a lot. Like, I don't think that Huberdo and Barcov, sorry, and Barkov, would be the players they are today if it wasn't for playing with Yarmory Yager. I think that he's like a great teacher of the game for young players.

Like that's, I think a big benefit to what the flames got in him, not just in what he can help them do from a depth perspective, but he's going to make all their young guys smarter, you know, better at protecting the puck. He's just

really good. The work ethic as well, like there's the leadership quality that he brings which I know we're not supposed to be talking about intangibles in the PTO cast, but I just really like everything the Yager brings. Right, but what do you think about this point?

I remember this was raised. I forget who, I think I was talking about it with Justin Borener. I'm not sure if I talked about on this podcast before, but I remember during the summer when, you know, there was a lot of, you know, questioning out there of why Yarmarager was still available and why a team hadn't snatched him up

and where he was going to go. And, you know, at this point was raised about how, especially at this point of his career, like you really have to craft a certain type of line around yarmoryager like you can't just just the type of the game he wants to play right where he wants to obviously by necessity at this point kind of slow it down and grind it out and just sort of lean on the puck in the offensive zone you can't necessarily play him with certain types of players and I feel like for a player of this caliber that we're talking about this high on the list in terms of the league's hierarchy of the position you know that that that lack of

flexibility I feel like also needs to be accounted for. Yeah, for sure. Although I would say, like, I don't think at any point in Florida did people think that Yager was slowing down Barkov and Hubertu, right? I think that he's a versatile enough player that even though he's not personally fast, he doesn't slow down his linemates, even if he slows down, like, his personal game. It's just he's, you know, if. Yager's speed was hurting him as much as people in the offseason were, like, were saying that it was.

I don't think that his linemates would consistently perform so much better with him on the ice than with him not on the ice, right? Yeah. And it's not just that they're playing with, like, a terrible player when they're not playing with Yager. It's, it's a gargantuan change when you put Yager on or off the ice. Like, it's still, like, to this day, like, he's one of the biggest, uh, possession drivers in the league. It's crazy to think about when he's 45 years old, but he does a lot of good stuff.

And, you know, as much as he might be slow, he's a heck of a puck battle winner. You know, he just doesn't lose them very often due to his giant lower body. So just say big butt. Just say it. His big ass, you know, it's the same as Sid. But he's just, he's so strong down low.

He's so good at protecting the puck. And, you know, his mind is still so quick. that I think it makes up for his lack of speed. Obviously, there's some drawbacks, and there's some teams that he probably wouldn't be a good fit on, like say Edmonton that needs a lot of team speed right now, he wouldn't be a good fit for them. But for a team like Calgary that has a lot,

I don't think it would hurt them at any point. All right, let's keep moving on with your list here. And then if we get to the end of it, and I feel like you've left off some very egregiously notable names instead of Yager, then we'll revisit this. Who do you have a 19? At 19, I have Jeff Skinner. He is abysmal defensively, but man, that guy can put the puck in the net,

and he's one of the only guys in Carolina who's been able to do it for the last several years. I have so much respect for his offense. It's a game, and he's not too shabby in transition either. Yes, yeah. Yeah, he's very good to do the neutral zone, obviously, with his unique skating style he does. There's a pirouettes and stuff that he does And triple axes and get a Vita check Yes, bringing the puck into the zone

Yeah, I think we need to give him a lot of credit I mean, you know, this year he's He's finishing at sub 10% But you know, he still has 11 goals and 30 games And just the fact that he has managed to To convert shots into goals in Carolina Which is something that organization has really struggled with In the past few years

I'm giving him a bit of extra credit for that so I have no issue with having him this high on the list. Yeah, I think he's just an incredible offensive talent. And if, you know, he was on a team that had a bit more offense around him, we'd probably be talking about like Jeff Skinner consistent 35, 40 goal score. Yeah, and it's cool that, you know, past three seasons, 77, 87, 82, 79 games. So it's finally healthy, yeah. It's good to see, yeah, because obviously he had a bunch of concerns with head injuries in the past.

So he's strung together a few healthy seasons here, which is nice to see. give me 18. 18, I have got Brandon Sade, you know, the all-around guy, the quintessential learned from Marion Hosa, good at everything. Nothing really bad to say about him. Yes. Now that we have about 30 games or so for each team, have your thoughts changed at all on the off-season swap of Sod and Panarin?

Not really. I think Panarin is like extremely underrated on the defensive side. And I noticed that a lot this year when I published my rankings that people were, I had Panarin ranked pretty high defensively just based on like his involvement and how successful he is winning the puck back and winning loop up battles, stuff like that. And, you know, he just doesn't turn over the puck very often. And people were like on me all the time. Like, oh, Nisimov is the only guy on that line who plays defense. But like, it's just not true.

And you heard Tortorella recently talk about how. They knew that he was a good offensive guy, but he's just been, like, incredible for them two-way forward, and he didn't realize that's how good he was. I think Panarin's a little bit better than Saad, but it's not a big enough gap where, you know, I think the Blackhawks got the wool pulled over their eyes or anything. You know, they didn't get jerseied in that trade. Right. Yeah, well, the weird thing for me is that, you know, Brennan Saad is sort of the quintessential. a 5-on-5 guy and it feels like his overall counting stats will not reflect

how good he is because he doesn't really get any of those cheapy points on the power play. I mean, he had three power play points last year. He has won this season. So he does so much of his production at 5-1-5 and you know, his numbers still look good but it's, you know, you imagine that if he was able to capitalize on some of those opportunities and get some easy points that way, it would look a lot better and maybe people would think more highly of them.

But yeah, his five-on-five numbers have always been amazing with him on the ice. And, you know, you subtract him from Columbus and you bring in Panera and who you'd think that, you know, especially on the power play, that's where his impact would be really felt. And Columbus has gotten really good at five-on-five, and their power play has gone to crap completely. And it's just weird that that happened considering the two, like the skill set moving out and the skill set coming in, that that's the dumbing I would not have predicted. Well, as we all know, we have to give a shout-out to Tyler Dello and say, the reason their power play was good was Sam Gagne. Yeah, but for some reason, that hasn't translated to the Vancouver Canucks. No, it's funny how that works.

You know, as much as people were talking about the Blue Jackets power play being like this perfect thing last year and how great it was, especially in the first half of the season, they were never a big team for creating scoring chances on that power play. They created lots of shots, but it was a lot of perimeter shots. and they finished a lot, especially early. Same with the Montreal Canadians. They had, I believe, a 20% power play all season long, and it was mostly just in the back of, like, Make Weber shoot. And I think Weber shot, like, 12 or 14% on the power play,

which for a defenseman is kind of ridiculous. And, you know, they haven't been able to replicate that this season, partially because Weber's been injured. But, you know, same kind of thing for Columbus is they've had a bit of a regression reckoning. on the power play. I don't think too much has changed, even though the personnel might be, you know,

a tiny bit better. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, listen, if they can figure that out, obviously it's not going to get to where it was at certain points last year, but if it gets to a point where it's not a liability, and, you know, they keep getting the goaltending from Bobrovsky.

And the overall 5-on-5 play from their team as a whole, you know, there's a case to be made that there's dangerous a team out east as, as I guess, anyone other than maybe Tampa Bay. So I'm a fan of what Columbus has going on over there right now. Yeah, me too. They're their good team, got lots of depth. I mean, they could use another center, but who couldn't in this league? Right.

Yeah. Oh, another top six center and a top four puck moving defenseman. Yeah, exactly. The deadline wants for every team in the history of the league. Yes, I can't wait for it. I really like for GM to one day just come out and say that his team's pretty good at those two spots, and they're looking elsewhere. I mean, I guess who could say that?

Like the penguins last year? No, they needed a defenseman. No, they need a defenseman, yeah. Like nobody has everything, you know, it's impossible in a salary cap league. I mean, there's like three teams in the league that have four good defensemen. So, yeah, I think, yeah, pretty much every team could desperately use a good Pokemon defenseman. All right, let's continue here. So we got Yager, Skinner, and Saad.

Give me, give me the next few names. 17, 16 and 15 here. Okay, 17, I've got David Pasternak, 16 I've got Tyler Tofoli, and 15 I've got Mike Hoffman. Fair. Okay, let's bang through those one by one. Pasternak, man, the numbers with

when the Bruins have him, Bergeron and Marshand out on the ice is they're pretty staggering. Yeah, it's a shame they can't use those guys for all 60 minutes. Yeah, and well, I I would say it's not a shame because I don't want him to win anything because I still hate the Bruins. But I have a ton of respect for that line. And I feel like David Pasternak, I know we talked earlier about how it was tough to separate Arvinson from that elite line.

I think the same thing applies to Pasternak. He's just better. Maybe it's because that line's better. But I look at Pasternak and his finishing ability. And I really love Victor Arvinson. I really love Jonathan Hubertoe. But I think Pasternak is just a step above them. Yes.

His evolution in the last couple years is incredible. And I know he was great right off the bat when he was just getting a couple games in the NHL. But last year, he was insanely good. And, you know, another year and he might be shooting up this list like crazy. I think his ceiling is higher than Brad Marchons. And Brad Marchon, I have in the top five. Yeah, I mean, that's a big time statement. I have Marchion in my top five as well.

And we'll talk about him more later when we get there. But, I mean, Pastornak, it seems like a bit of a reach, but at the same time, he has, he definitely has youth on his side and he's still so young that it's, you know, you don't want to write him off and say that's impossible, even though that might seem like a lofty expectation for him at this point. Yeah, it's, I mean, maybe, maybe things will change once, you know, Pastornak is in his prime years and Patrice Bergeron is nearing retirement. Right. you know that changes everything but as of right now he looks on like he looks to be on a better track than marshan was early in his career um to foley i i don't know i don't really have much to say about him i feel like this is is a good spot for him and that's yeah 15 to 20 range um he had an awful year last year like like everyone every part of his game yeah every part of his

game fell apart especially offense though but yeah like all the kings did uh he's rebounded like copatar has he's an incredible possession driver a volume shooter from the wing he's uh he's good at everything great transition player especially uh i really like him yeah um co-sign that and mike hoffman sniper yes yeah dead shot yeah anywhere on the ice yeah as soon as he gets into the offense his you sort of have to be on high alert and looking around where he is because he could really shoot it from anywhere and score. I wonder if, you know, we're hearing a lot about players being available and potential trades and if Ottawa just guts this team what they're going to do. And we haven't really, or at least I feel like I haven't. I don't know if you feel differently, but have you heard a lot of Mike Hoffman trade buzz?

I feel like that's something that I haven't really heard. We heard it in the past for sure, but this year it's kind of been a bit quiet. I feel like he'd be one of those names on this team that if they really did have a bit of a fire sale, I'd be contacting them very frequently because he's on a pretty friendly deal, and he's still a heck of a player, and he's in his prime right now. Yeah, I feel like there's so much focus on Eric Carlson that, you know, the noise level is so high that you don't hear it on guys like Mike Hoffman. But, I mean, if they are going to blow it up, I'd imagine that he would be available.

But, man, he'd be a tough guy to trade. He's just so good. And especially with how much they struggle to score. I know that the senators might be best served by blowing it up. But it's always tough to let go of those kinds of players, even if you know that you should. And he's one of the only guys in the league that can reliably and consistently score from outside the slot, which is, you know, obviously you want guys shooting from closer into the net. But having that guy who can just, like, float around the edges and snipe puck's top corner and do it consistently is,

Kind of fun. Yes. Well, see, like, obviously it depends on whether he's actually available and what it would take realistically. But, man, like a team like the Blues or something, I'd love to see them just go after a Mike Hoffman type. And, you know, I was talking about this with Tyler when we were doing a deep dab in the Western Conference last week. But, you know, it feels like this Blues team, you know, some of it has to do with financial reasons and some of us to do with teams that have stood in their way over the past. but they've never really sort of just, you know, went for it and pushed all their chips in.

And I feel like this year, the West is wide open and you can make a case that the Blues are the best team in that conference. And I feel like another sort of impact shooter like this would look pretty damn good on their second line. And all of a sudden, you know, without, especially if they were giving up futures for him, on a team like the Blues,

that would be such a fascinating fit for me. Yeah, for sure. And I feel like, you know, You know, the blues, now that they aren't with Ken Hitchcock, like they're not coached by Ken Hitchcock, a guy like Mike Hoffman would probably fit in there pretty nicely, right? Like, if it was still hitched there, you'd probably be thinking, you know,

a guy like Hoffman who doesn't back check super hard, who isn't, you know, entirely reliable with the puck outside the offensive zone might be a little bit, you know, push down the lineup. Kind of the way he was in Ottawa for a couple years, which was, you know, I remember when they were putting, Mike Hoffman on the fourth line in the playoffs against the Canadians and that like basically lost them a series. Just like crushing this guy who was probably their second best forward at the time and still

like playing Bobby Ryan on the first line. I think he had like one goal in like 30 games. You know, you got to you got to give guys like Hoffman a chance. And I feel like now that Mike Yao's there, they'd probably be more likely a chance for him to really shine. I think that'd be a really good fit. Yeah, I like that. All right, Andrew, let's take a quick break here from a sponsor, and we'll pick this back up with our top 14 on the other end of things.

Sounds good. Thursday is sneakily becoming one of my favorite days of the week. It's great. You're so close to the weekend, you can almost feel it. The NHL schedule is always jam-packed with games. And most recently, we've been holding the PDOcast listener league over at Fandul. It's been two weeks now they've been doing the contest, and it's honestly been a blast so far.

The rules are pretty simple. It's a $2 entry. You pick the best team you possibly can for that day, as long as if it's under the cap, and then you follow along in real time and see how it does against the rest of the field. We're currently doing 25 spots and keeping those open for the listeners every week

for the first ones that jump in and sign up. But if you guys keep filling it up and enjoying it, we'll eventually raise that and up the ante. The best part is that you get to play against me, take my money, and show me that I have no idea what I'm doing. Because I really don't. I'm a newcomer to the Daily Fantasy World. world and still adjusting to the fact that something like block shots is a good thing and you

get points for it. So I guess take advantage of it while you can. Last week I actually did decently well though thanks to stacking the lightning against the avalanche and the Bruins against the coyotes. But my lineup paling in comparison to that of JJ Oilers 97 who wrote a Jake Allen shout out to victory. Our buddy Brian from the Keeping Carlson podcast took second place and he used the high-flying LA Kings offense which is a sentence I never thought I'd be saying but I guess to be fair it was a home game against the floundering senators. So here's the deal. If you've never played Daily Fantasy before, go to fandwell.com and sign up using the promo code PDO.

As a new user, you'll also get the perk of receiving a free entry into the NHL breakaway contest that's guaranteed to pay out thousands of dollars in cash prizes. Not only do you get to put your money where your mouth is, but you also get to enjoy the natural high of drafting every single day if you want, as opposed to the season-long leagues where it's a one and done and then you're stuck with the same crappy team that you took months before. If you've already played daily fantasy sports on Fandul, and you know what you're doing, then you just go to fandul.com slash PDO and join the aforementioned Thursday evening

PDO cast listener league, and I'll see you all there. Now, let's get back to the show. All right, give me your 14 here. You want to do 14 or a couple? Yeah, just give me a couple. You know what, you're the guess. You can do whatever you want. All right, I'll do whatever I want.

All right, so. Well, don't give me like 11 random. here. Give me, let's go for 14. I'm just going to give you the entire 14. I'm just going to give you the entire 14. I'm going to go, this one's a bit controversial. I know people are going to get mad at me.

14 is Alex Ovechkin. 13 is Nino Nita Ryder. And 12 is Artemi Panarin. I think the Ovechkin one is pretty reasonable at this point. Do you think people would actually get that mad about it? I think so just because it's, it's tough to take a guy, like, especially this year, where he's once again rebounded, and he's, you know, scoring like a goal every four periods or something,

you know, and say like, oh, decline, but like he isn't what he used to be. I hate saying stuff like this about a matchkin because I respect him so much, because every player is subject to decline, right? And especially with a guy who is all volume like Ovechkin is, he's an underrated playmaker, but not a great playmaker. He isn't the offensive driver that he used to be. And his defensive play is so bad that it's hard to not knock him down a few pegs when you're making a comprehensive ranking of like the best all around players, which, you know, I think Ovechkin. on a given night could be the best winger in the NHL,

but over the course of a full season, he's probably in the 10 to 15 range. Yeah, I think that's reasonable. I mean, listen, man, he's approaching like a thousand regular season games. He's 32. Like, it makes sense. We'll say it's awesome that he, uh, he's bounced back this year because obviously,

you know, there were some pretty alarming trends last season. And it looks like, Like he's yet again fighting some of that off. I mean, it's fascinating with him because obviously he gets so much of the credit for his prowess on the power play and all the goals he scores on there. But then there's also like the element of just the fact that he's out there in the ice and what he's capable of from that left circle. Like what sort of the lanes he opens for everyone else as well. And, you know, a guy like T.J. O'Shee allows him to all of a sudden be a 30 goal score.

So it's, I mean, just having him out there and the weapon that he presents as even if he's not necessarily shooting the puck by just standing there is such a valuable asset. But I agree at 5-1-5, you need to factor that in. And considering we're talking about the top 15 guys at both wing positions here, I think, you know, not knocking him down a bit just because of those concerns is fair. Yeah. And, you know, what I find most impressive about Ovechkin isn't even his shot anymore, as much as that's still, you know, his number one weapon. It's just the way that he gets lost in traffic. You know, he sits there on his little sweet spot on the power play, and everybody knows the puck's going there.

Everybody. There are teams that specifically have a guy on the PK just to watch Ovechkin, and he still gets those shots through, and he still gets those goals in. It's incredible to have that kind of consistency in today's NHL where there's more tight checking than, you know, at any point in history. And, you know, as much as, you know, people might think that we're being unfair, putting him down this far, considering how good of a goal score he is. Like, I consider him the greatest goal score in the history of the sport. But, you know, there's more to the game than just scoring goals.

Right. It's what about, it's what you're bringing to the table over is taking off of it and sort of the value perspective there. Yeah, no, that's fair. Nita Ryder and Paneran. Yeah, it's a bit rich, in my opinion, for Needer Rider, but I had a feeling you'd have him on here. He's, listen, he's a heck of a player. And, I mean, he's no Cal Clutterbuck, obviously, but. Now, there's a trade that that's like, that's a tough one to swallow for the Islander.

Yeah, and it's also one of those that, like, at the time, it was like, this is horrible. And then it wound up being even worse than you could. have expected, but it's not even with the benefit of Pineside. It's from the second that was announced. It was like, oh, God, what are you doing, Garth? It's not quite Fleet Forsberg for Martin Eirat, but it's kind of close. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

Like, what is there a say about Niederrider? I mean, his 5-1-5 numbers are great. He's awesome around the net. What do you have to add? He's just a good all-round player, you know. I had him, I think, when I was going through, my list he was the first player like moving up the list that was in

the 75th percentile or higher in offense, defense, and transition. He's just really good all over the ice. I love his aggression. I love that he's a little shit. You know, he's not afraid of being dirty and getting players angry as much as, you know, if you're cheering for a team and they have that kind of player,

you hate them. I find those kinds of players are so important in the game. you know like Matthew Kachuk who actually know Kachuk should be an honorable mention I think he could be within the top 20 in a couple years but uh you know Kachuk Gallagher uh Marshan those guys kinds of players like nossum cadre on at center are who can draw penalties and get teams off their game not just by scoring but just by the things they do between the whistles they make a they make a really big impact yeah I agree and I don't know I guess this is uh For the people that say that the Wild don't really have a, you know, a superstar and it's more of a by committee approach.

I mean, ranking them as the as the 13th best winger in the league is a kind of flies in the face of that argument. Yeah, although, I mean, I guess it depends on your definition of superstar. Yeah, no, that's fair. Yes. No, you're right. But, I mean, in terms of his impact, he definitely moves a needle quite a bit. But for Pernar, we already sort of discussed him and his fit in Columbus. So I think we can move on there.

Give me your 11 and your 10. My 11 is Johnny Goddrow and 10 is Fleet Forsberg. Yeah, those are two pretty good players, man. Yeah, pretty good players. And the only thing holding back Godro is his defensive play, like Sean Monaghan. A little bit of a lack of attention to detail there. They're both guys that like to be on the offensive side of the puck, even in the defensive zone, which is a heavy criticism of a lot of offensive players,

but specifically those guys are quite bad for that. You know, sometimes you're thinking offense even when you're playing defense, and that can hurt your team a bit. Those guys are a little bit guilty of it, but offensively, I'll say something controversial. I think Johnny Goddrow, if you compare them age to age, is a better player than Patrick Kane. You mean in terms of right now or their trajectory? Yes, yeah, in terms of trajectory,

where they were at each point in their careers, like if you compare like 21 to 21, 22 to 22. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's a pretty bold statement, but I mean, huge. Based on the way he's playing this season, I mean, obviously that sort of, you know,

the rule change that happened this season. this season in terms of cracking down on the slashes of the hands were with him in mind and so it's I guess it's kind of fitting that he's sort of bounced back as it feels like no one's really benefited more than he has um yeah I mean 38 points and 31 games so far and the thing is is like I like Sean Monaghan as a player but if Johnny Goodrow didn't exist and wasn't in his life like what would his numbers look like and how what we what would be talking about him I feel pretty confident saying that he would not be on the contract that he is now without Goodrow there.

Oh, for sure not. And, you know, I think Sean Monaghan, as far as shooting would probably, you know, he probably wouldn't have as many opportunities to shoot without Johnny Goodrow and his, his quality of shots would probably drop a bit. But he has such a great shot that he would still be a scorer. But I think we would be talking about him much differently in terms of how much offense he could produce on his. Yes.

So I like him as well, but, man, Gadreau is the driver on that line, and it's pretty easy to see that anytime you watch them play. Yeah, I agree with that. Toad Forzburg, yeah, man. Did you see that one assist he had last night against the Canucks? No, I wasn't able to watch the highlights. I watched, I saw P.K. Suban's Center Ice School just on Twitter, which was kind of funny.

It's the second time he's done that. Actually, maybe the third time. Yeah. Went out there, game his coursey, and scored a goal. Pretty good. Got to love that game in coursey.

Yes. Yeah, man. You got to see this Forsberg highlight. It was peak fill of Forsberg where he was in the offensive zone and he kind of went out wide and he just, he does, he did that move where he throws the puck forward to a space no one is at and just goes and gets it.

And then he kind of just span around. And with all the defensive attention on him, he flicked the puck back towards basically where he came from. And it wound up resulting in it just, an empty net goal for for calli yarn crook i believe and it was i was like yes this is uh when someone asked me why i love philip thorisberg just watch this video he's uh his his wizardry it's great that he started to get more love for it last year because the run the predators went on and how they sort of captured everyone's imagination and became such a good story and obviously we're

playing on on a bigger national stage but he through the neutral zone with a pocket entering the offensive zone is as good as it gets i mean he's remarkable i love i mean the puck really does feel like it's sort of attached to his stick on a string and he can just he tries stuff and accomplishes stuff that other guys wouldn't ever even really consider doing it's just it's it's wizardry at its finest yeah and i don't know what it is it's so satisfying but that move of just throwing a puck to empty space and then beating everyone to it as a way to evade checkers is so satisfying I don't know, I can't even explain what it is about it that I love, but, you know, it's one of those things that, you know, even a guy who's fairly limited in other aspects of the game, like Paul Byron, who's just like a speed burner, he loves to do that. And it's just every time he does it, I just like smile.

Yeah. Connor McDavid, you know, obviously he's got that speed to burn. I love when players do that. Artemi Pernarin as well. Yep. Who isn't necessarily like the fastest guy, but he just in terms of that skill and having the puck. On a string loves to do that. And it is.

It's super fascinating. It's also one of those moves that it's almost impossible to defend in today's NHL because like you're the only one that knows where it's going. So like the defender is either going to be a step behind or has to obstruct you to not let you get by them. And they're going to call that for a penalty. So if you have the touch and the sort of vision and creativity and ability to do it, like it's, I mean, it's easier said than none, obviously. but these guys have it down to a science

and it's pretty much impossible to stop. Yeah, it's really fun to watch. And, you know, like you said, you know, watching Foresburg is a lot like watching somebody who's really good at playing like EA sports, NHL games because he just like tries weird stuff. And sometimes it doesn't work and sometimes it does. But when it does work, it's amazing.

And, you know, he puts pucks in the net. You know, I don't want to over-empherson. emphasize, you know, clutch scoring, but he puts goals in the net when it matters and when the team really needs a goal. And we saw that like in the playoffs last year when they were struggling to really get things done. It was almost always Fleet Forsberg who ended up finding a way to get a goal. So I think that's something that you got to factor in as well. Yep. All right.

Give me a few other names here. We're inside the top 10 now, which is a very exciting. All right. Yeah. So at number nine, I've got Mark Stubb. Stone. Number eight is Max Patch Ready. And number seven is Jamie Ben.

All right. Let's take those guys one by one. What do you want to say about Stone? Mark Stone is Patrice Bergeron among wingers, the best defensive winger in the game. He is astonishingly good without the puck. And then with the puck, he's one of the best transition players in the game. Offensively, this year.

he's you know exploded in terms of goals he was never like a enormous goal score more of a playmaking guy but hey man if you give him enough opportunities he's going to be able to find every way possible to beat you I just have so much respect for the guy I think he's incredible yeah I didn't really notice this but another I mean because I was looking right now I was like oh you know he's shooting 19% that explains some of the goals and then it's like 17 15 16 and a half over the past season so I didn't really even, you know, obviously he's a very skilled guy, but I didn't think of him as one of

those super elite finishers, but considering this is like the fourth season he's doing it now, you kind of have to start taking that for what it is. Yeah. And, you know, especially if you increase your shot volume and your shooting percentage goes up, it's probably not going to be sustainable, but he's clearly a guy who, like, his shot is really good. He puts himself in good opportunities to score. He's not quite Alex Tangay level where he only shoots when there's an emptying that but he's up there for in terms of shooting percentage he's he's just such a great player and you know I remember early in his career I think it was his rookie season he was talking about

how he likes to line guys up for hits in the neutral zone or like coming out of their own zone and then when they flinch as if they're like ready to take a hit he just completely abandons the check and goes for the puck and then I think it was like the following year he led the league and takeaways and I find insights like that to the game where he's like admitting his strategy and people still can't adjust to it and like i believe he still leads league and takeaways i i love that like he's just such a smart player and i have unending respect for those kinds of guys yeah and one of the few guys where um you know everyone knows about the takeaways and it would be very easy for it to become one

of those, you know, overrated things or, you know, to not actually be a very good thing. But then you watch a player and you're like, oh, no, he's actually just remarkably good at just picking people's pockets and taking the puck from them right under their nose. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, if he wasn't able to do things with the puck, those takeaways wouldn't be worth much, but he's so dangerous in terms of shooting and playmaking that, you know, he's just, and it's just such a great combination for a player. and he's super fun to watch.

I mean, especially if you really appreciate the little things in hockey, Mark Stone is just one of those guys that you can never get tired of watching. Agreed. And speaking of a good segue here, guys who convert a very high percentage of their shots into goals, Max Patchretti, who is shooting 6.5% of the season. Oh, wow, I thought it was lower than that. It seems lower than that. Man, Patcheretti.

is the ultimate, like, always gets his goals by the end of the season, but never gets the respect that he deserves. You know, I wish I could figure out why exactly that is. You know, I can identify pretty easily some weaknesses to his game. He is not the greatest passer, and that's not just from a playmaking perspective, just like all over the ice. He commits a lot of failed passes and turnovers, but, like, he's not super careful with the puck and that can be frustrating i think for a lot of people who want to see like precision

passing especially canadian's fans who grew up watching the 70s team that had the puck on the string like team uh you know team russia in the same era but uh patch ready is just he's a dead shot as much as his shooting percentage this year would have you doubt that he's he's going to get his 35 by the end of the year he almost always does uh i i just think that he's a incredible offensive player who also is one of the better defensive players in the league. He's one of the league's best penalty killers. His transition game is not as good as it used to be, which, you know, at 29 years old, I think he is, could be a bit of a sign of decline there.

It could be just that he's got different linemates and he's not the guy carrying the puck as much. He's given a lot of responsibility to Philippe Deneau the last couple years, who is a phenomenal transition player and probably one of like the top. 10 four checkers in the in the NHL but you know there's just so much good about Patrick Reddy's game the things that he's been able to do with limited talent around him throughout his career right you know he's never had a number one center and I would argue that he's only ever played with like a number two center for a very short time he spent most of his career playing with third

line centers against extremely tough competition and you know when he has has Brennan Gallagher on his line, yes, he has legit help on that line, but most times he doesn't. Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of David Dayhardy in there. Yeah, and right now I think it's De No and Andrew Shaw, who are both good players, but they're third line players. Yes, I miss matching talent for sure. Yeah, it's, it's one, he's going to get those 30 to 35 goals. It's not going to be a smooth sailing.

There's going to be a lot of, a lot of hit pieces and a lot of consternation about what's going on with Max Petredi, but he'll get there. the thing i the question i have about him is you know after this season he has one year left on his deal and he will be in his 30s at that point and you know just some quick math here it looks like throughout his nchal career he's made 33 million dollars worth in an hl deals and you know obviously that's a lot of money for for you and i but for a player of his caliber who's been playing at this high of a level for as long as he has, that's not a lot of money. It feels like, you know, obviously he's been playing on one of the best non-ELC deals in

the league ever since he signed it. And I kind of wonder, like, where, what happens when he comes up for that deal? Because you can imagine that he'll want it. It'll be the last big deal he can sign and he'll want to squeeze out every single penny he can when he hits the market. And, you know, he's meant so much the haves, but at that point of his career, um, It's kind of tough. Like, do you want to be the one

picking out the tab on that deal? I'm fascinated to see how the next year and a half goes here with Max Patriot and the Canadians and where they go from there. Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like because of the way Patriotty plays, he'll probably have a bit more longevity than most players. Like, he might not score as much,

but I think he's going to have a lot of versatility, you know, into his mid to late 30s. I wouldn't be very worried about him being like, you know, a negative impact player at any point until like really late in his career. But yeah, when you're looking at, you know, what number does that contract start with? And what number does the salary start with? Is it a seven? That's pretty easily digestible for the kind of player he is, is in an eight, maybe less.

So even with the cap going up, especially with Kerry Price's deal there, I don't think that he'll leave the Montreal Canadians by his choice. So it's a tough situation. I think, you know, a few years ago, I thought that Max Patcheretti would be a guy that, you know, especially when he, a couple years into his deal when it was kind of clear that he wasn't super happy with the money on it. And, you know, he's a guy who reads everything said about him. So he was kind of. I think he's probably listening to this right now. Yeah, he might be. And, you know, hey, Max, if you are, I'm a big fan of you.

but he's a guy that is affected by negative criticism, I guess you could call it. And when it's justified, he'll be the first one to agree with it. But when it's not, he gets really annoyed. And sometimes that sparks his play and sometimes it doesn't. But I thought that he would be a guy who would be open to being traded or moving away from Montreal, maybe playing for the Rangers, which was his hometown team growing up. But as time has gone on, it seems like he's really embraced playing in Montreal and the pressure that comes with it.

So he'd be a guy that I would expect the Canadians to hang on to, even though there's constant rumors that they're going to trade him because of, I think, outside criticism, more than internal criticism. It seems to me like every time Max Patch already struggles, the frustration is that he's not taken off the power play. He's not the greatest power play player. but like every indication is that every coach and every assistant coach they've ever had loves this guy for all the things that he brings on the ice and he's just too good to give up on. So it might be a bit of a tough negotiation, but I don't think that he will, you know, just go to free agency.

Well, the one thing I know about the Canadians and Mark Bergevan is that I'm sure they will handle this well without any, without, any drama. Yeah, definitely. And, you know, there will be a lot of, there will be a very respectful process as, I don't know if you made it to English media, but Andre Markov did an interview the other, the other week. And apparently, like, the Canadians only made him like one offer. And they were just like, take it or leave it. And he was like, okay, no conversation, no nothing. Like, because Markov's his own agent, right? So he was just like flabbergasted that after putting in like 15, 16 years with the team and being a highly respected player that they just kind of didn't want to even talk to him.

Yeah. I guess that was like the main sticking point of the negotiations that ended up with him going to Russia. So we'll see. We'll see. They can find a way to screw up everything. Seems like a pretty big sticking point. Take it or leave it.

Yeah, it's pretty tough. It's a tough situation because he was so old. Right. Yeah. Okay, Jamie Ben here. who you had at number seven so here's the question i have about him if you were running the stars um would you split up the lines like they are right now and they moved too recently with um with ben radjolov and say again all on separate lines or would you stack them because you know

if you're sort of thinking of from a fantasy hockey perspective or a video game perspective I remember when the Radzlov news got announced, it was like, oh my God, can you imagine these three guys together? Like, the opposition is never going to get the puck. It's going to be amazing. And then you actually watch them out on the ice together. And it just didn't really seem to work for whatever reason, even though all three guys are so talented. So I kind of wonder if what they have going now, where they're just kind of going for a more depth approach and coming out of waves. I wonder if that's the way for them to go moving forward as opposed to playing them all together.

Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I've always been a fan of the idea of, like, duos. So, like, maybe if Jason Spetsa was having a great season, I would probably be more comfortable with having all three guys on separate lines and then have, like, one of them with Jason Spetsa. But that hasn't been the case. And, you know, I have a lot of respect for Jamie Ben, but I think he's much better as a winger than he is as a center.

So, like, I would keep Ben and Sagan together and then maybe find a different spot for Radjj. Love because we already know that Ben and Sagan together is absurdly good. So we don't need to tinker with that as much as there might be, you know. Right. Yeah. And then have Rajelow on his own line. Yeah, exactly.

Or, you know, maybe Faxa could be a good fit with Radulov. Faxa has some of that same two-way ability that Filippe Dino had that Rajalov really liked to play with last year. So maybe that could be a fit. but clearly it's it's those three guys are the high-end offensive guys along with john clingberg and then it's like this a pretty big gap between those guys and the rest of the lineup yeah the thing with the stars is like you know if you just look at the numbers as a whole right now i mean i think i believe they're still a top five shot share team they've been first and expected goals for a while and

you know they're winning games they're in a playoff spot and you know it all checks out it seems like kitchcock's doing a great job but then it's like you just kind of watch them and you look at some of the rates and the speed they're playing at compared to years past. And it's like all the worst fears about what would happen if Hitchcock came in and really instilled his system and made them play the type of game that he wants him to play, like have come true. Like they've been effective. But that team from what, 2015, 16 that took the world by storm and was as fun of hockey

team to watch as I can remember in reason memory, seems like it's in the very, very distant rear of your mirror. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, I mean, if they end up winning a bunch of games in the playoffs, we'll probably, like, nobody's going to complain in Dallas. But that quality that they had of being the league's most entertaining team in both good and bad ways is definitely gone. You know, like John Klingberg this season has had like this huge change in his game where he's much more defensively responsible, which, you know, is great for him as a player because it hasn't affected his points. his offensive production is the same but there's definitely a little bit less fun going on in Dallas

which is maybe a necessary thing for if you want to actually win when it comes down to it you know you have to cut out some of the fun but it's still a game and we're still observers and fans of the game so that kind of sucks but then again you know they've got four players on pace for over 65 points so that's still pretty good they're still scoring Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I'll be fine.

It just obviously, like, it felt like they were, like, sort of revolutionized in the game and becoming the preeminent NHL TV team, and that's not the case anymore. Let's do your six spot here before we take another break. Who do you have at six? Six, I have Blake Wheeler, who, for some reason, never truly gets the respect he deserves around the NHL. I think he's incredible. You know what?

I lied. Let's take a quick break here. Okay. This is the ultimate tease. because now people are going to be very interested to see what we have to say about Blake Wheeler. So we'll talk about him in a second. Anyone can develop high blood pressure. In fact, 7.5 million Canadians live with hypertension every day.

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We had Elliot Freeman on to discuss the industry and his role as an insider in it. We had Tyler Delo come on to help deep dive the Western Conference and Dom L to help do the Eastern Carniv. version of that. While I was out there, I also got a chance to check out a Raptors game. And I know this is a hockey podcast and fans sometimes get irritated when we talk about other sports on here, but so be it. I love hoops, and it sucks that we don't have any of it out here in Vancouver. So whenever I travel, I try to make a point of catching a game, if at all possible. And I've done that often enough now that I've pretty much nailed down the whole process to a science. And by that I mean, I turn over the car keys to seek geek and just let them do all the

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And best of all, for listening to the HockeyOcast, you'll get $20 off your first Seekkeek purchase. All you've got to do is download the Siki cap and just enter the promo code PDO and you'll claim those $20. So it's a pretty easy thing to do. Anyways, now let's get back to the show. Okay, the Blake Wheeler thing, I wanted to have this discussion with you. What do you make of Winnipeg this season? I think they are not good, but getting all the luck that they didn't have the last couple years. But don't you find a weird, and I talked about this with Tyler Dello quite a bit. that like they've been better at five-on-five as a team since matthew pro came back from injury a few weeks ago

and they're trending in the right way but you still look at like that combination of wheeler conner and shifley which should be very good is like a 46% shot share combination through yeah it doesn't make sense and it's like their bottom six is actually really good at controlling the puck and you're like I don't understand what's happening here. Like, you know, they're getting the goal attending. They have so much talent that they're going to get the goals. But in terms of sustainability and looking ahead and trying to project performance, it's very head-scratching to me what's happening there.

Yeah, they're a weird team because, you know, they've got a disproportional number of players who can just score on a hugely high percentage of shots. Right. I don't know if Kyle Connor is going to be that for the rest of his career, but he has been so far this season. Patrick Linae will obviously always be a high percentage shooter outside of maybe like a couple crazy years in his career. Mark Schifley is a hugely high percentage shooter

and like he shoots from like five feet from the net on average. He's just he really likes to get in there deep. They've got a lot of those guys which kind of helps them boost. But I don't know. There's a lot of stuff going on there that doesn't make me believe in them long term. But, you know, with more power play time this year due to the crackdown on slashing and they're finally getting goaltending, maybe it'll work enough for them to go through it. You know, it seems to me just looking at the Western Conference, like it looks like there's a lot of pretenders right now. And I feel like Winnipeg is one.

But that being a pretender might mean they're just not going to get past like the second round. they could still have a good run. So I don't know. It's tough to speak too far against them, but I would like to see a line like that Shifley Wheeler, Connor line be a lot better because I feel like those are three really good players and there's no reason for them to be that bad. That's what is so confusing.

I understand last year, Leine, especially in the beginning of the year, had some trouble with puck possession. and, you know, he was just mainly a shooting pretender's driver and was really strong with the defensive aspects of the game, but he got a lot better throughout the season. It doesn't make sense to me that there's still some struggles in that top six with the talent that they have.

I don't know if it's just the way they're playing or what, but this is a team that consistently, to me, seems like they're less than the sum of their parts. Yeah. Yeah, it's such a weird thing because if it was like, you know, if the top six was carrying everything and the bottom six was still a liability and the overall team performance wasn't was pretty underwhelming at five-on-five you'd be like oh well you know there's no reason to expect this is dramatically going to improve because it's kind of weird for a

bunch of guys who we think aren't good players to all of a sudden get better mid-season but that's sort of the opposite what's happening here so if you're optimistic that you know the best players on this team will turn it around from that perspective then i don't know maybe the jets is a whole We'll see their performance come up, but yeah, I'd like to see that happen before I fully buy in, although, you know, there's a lot of talent and the goaltending is there, and who knows, maybe they can ride that to success or at least more success than that in the past. Yeah, so Blake Wheeler is turning 32 this summer. We've spent a few years now saying he's the most underrated player in the league.

It still hasn't reached that point where he actually becomes. overrated just because we all say he's underrated but it's it's gonna it's gonna happen i think it's you know it's still always way he's still playing at a very high level but maybe when he's like thirty four or thirty five people are still just like still just robotically gonna be like like blake wheeler's so underrated and he's won't actually be that good anymore we'll be like actually you know he's overrated it's like the louis erics and syndrome exactly the louisicin syndrome yeah um okay top five i'm very curious who you have five here because i think like the top four is very obvious um oh really

So I don't know who do you have five? I had all the top five were really tough for me just to order them. I feel like it kind of gets to the point where they're all similarly talented. But I had Brad Marchand at five. Okay, hold on a second. Give me the rest of your top four. Okay, okay. So I had Marchand at five.

Patrick Kane at four. Taylor Hall at three. Okay. Teresenko at two. Yeah. And our boy Nikita Kuchero at number one. all right that's fair um because i forgot about taylor hall oh no so demitri you know what for a second there i i was honestly under the belief that you were going to tell me that because when you

especially when you said you had bradmarsion five i was like don't tell me you have phil kessel in your top four oh no which i thought is which i thought was direction you were going and then i was like oh yeah taylor hall that's right yeah so i would have i would have hall fifth on that list but yes the uh the The gap between him and the other four guys is not as big as I, as I met. It might have made it believe based on my thought process before I remember that Taylor Hall is a person we should consider. Oh, man. I can't believe you forgot Taylor Hall. That's almost as bad as me for getting Austin Matthews.

I apologize to Taylor Hall, his family, his boat. Jordan Eberley, the Edmonton Oilers, their fans. I apologize all of them. The Edmonton Oilers. I feel like Oilers fans if we had forgotten Hall would actually be kind of happy. It would be like the one time they don't have to hear about it. Aha, I told you guys, Taylor Hall is not a top 20 winger. You'd be referenced for the next six years by Mark Specter.

Yes. All due respect to Mark Specter. Okay, let's go through these then. So you have Bramersh on five. It's interesting. I had them three. Yeah. I don't think there's any, like I wouldn't argue with you.

The only reason I had him number five and not higher is because this morning I woke up and thought, hey, Brad Marchand number five. I think that he's pretty equivalent to the guys ahead of him right now. You know, obviously he plays on a line that gives him a lot of advantages over some of the other players, but I guess you could say the same with Nikita Kutjurav. I think he's a phenomenal player. I think the only thing with Marshawn that kind of, Makes me think that he's not quite this good as he seems to have hit his prime really late.

And usually that could be like a sign that there's other things going on that aren't necessarily just that player's, you know, talent coming to fruition. So, you know, it's hard for me to say like it's all Brad Marchand, but at the same time he's so good. And it's been a few seasons of this now where he's just been this unstoppable offensive force. you can't hold it against him and then you watch like the game last night against the Red Wings and I understand the competition isn't that great but like he just towards the end of it just sort of took it over right

like he makes a ridiculous cross seam pass across the ice where it like somehow evades like five different sticks and winds up being an easy tab in for Pasternak and then he scores a ridiculous goal in overtime and you're just like it's so weird that like I was a fan of his game even before he had this off

offensive breakout because I thought like a player like him, if you rained it in and kind of walked a fine line there could be a very useful player as an agitator. But I knew he was more skilled than most of those guys typically are. But I definitely cannot say that I saw this type of an offensive surge coming. Like it's absurd how gifted he is with the puck. And that's just, it's weird to me how that developed at this stage of his career. I just, I don't know. It's, Yeah. I definitely didn't think that he was going to turn into a guy who pushed 40 goals. You know, that's, that came out in a, I don't want to say nowhere,

but it's a pretty surprising development at that stage of his career. And I feel like Patrice Bergeron gets a lot of credit for the way that Marciaun has developed as a player. I think Clos Julien deserves some credit because a lot of coaches, I think would have turned Brad Marchand into just an instigating guy who would play like second, third line minutes and try to get you some power plays and take way too many penalties, essentially kind of like more like an Andrew Shaw. And I feel like he reined in Marchand enough that he was able to take advantage of that that shit disturbing attitude and play while at the same time being an elite player. And that takes time and a lot of effort because I don't think.

Marchion is necessarily the most mature guy out there as much as I have respect for him. And, you know, maybe he's a lot more mature now than he once was. But, you know, when it was the Marchand Segan Berger online, Marshawn was not the most mature guy on the line, we'll say that. Right. And, you know, I guess who we were talking about this with earlier? Was it Mark Stone we were talking about sort of when you increase the volume, what happens with the efficiency in terms of shooting?

And it's like, Marshaun was always one of those guys. was well above league average in terms of his efficiency, but he didn't really shoot a lot. And then the past two and a half seasons now, he started shooting a ton and playing a lot more. And he's maintained that percentage, which is insane. Like obviously, you know, right this year he's 25% and that's not going to continue. But last year, he shot 17% the year before 15. And he's getting into the mid 200s in terms of shots on goal for the season. So, yeah, I mean, it's insane that he's turned into this guy that's going to be pushing 35.

to 40 goals every season and yeah it's one heck of a player um Taylor hall so you did you had hall fourth I had Hall third I had Patrick Kane fourth okay so let's do a quick thing on Patrick Kane here so okay you know obviously a great player in his own right but it was fair to wonder how much of his production over the past two seasons was being boosted by playing with a guy like Artemi Panarin, if only because, like, I don't want to talk about chemistry too much, but it did feel like it was just like a match made in heaven with their skill sets and sort of some of the East-West passing they were doing and how opposing defense is really had no answer to it with having two guys like that as threats on either end of the

ice. And his numbers haven't really dropped at all this season without Panarin, which I guess is a very encouraging thing if you're, you know, in the camp defending that he's a top five guy on this like he hasn't really dipped at all without him. So that's encouraging. Well, he's dipped a tiny bit. Right. But I think that's also Chicago has dipped a tiny bit.

Yes. Right. Like, I don't think he's going to put up another 100 point season. No. Without Panarin. It's just, it's tough to do that anyway. So losing Panarin kind of hurts. But I feel like what they did when they got Panarin because Panarin and

Kaine almost played the exact same game. So they were just like, hey, Patrick Kaine, would you like to play with Patrick Kane? He was like, yeah. Let's do that. And it just like, it changed everything for him and made him that much of a better player. Because like before Panarin came in, like he was more, he was still scoring a point per game, two seasons before with injury, or three seasons before, I guess, due to injury. But it didn't look as impressive.

But, you know, before that he was like 60, 70 point guy more than point per game. And now he's, you know, in his late 20s, almost 30 years old, point per game player still. it's pretty incredible he's also like Patrick Kane is you know the wizard with the puck you know that everybody knows about but it's not just in the offensive zone that he's

incredible it's it's all throughout the he can carry the puck in anywhere and he just single-handedly changes the transition game for the Blackhawks he's just incredible in that way yep a cosign all and all that um yeah i mean speaking

transitioning the puck. Yeah, that's a good segue to Taylor Hall. Yeah. Wow, yeah. One heck of a player. I mean, that goal he scored the other night

against the Kings where he basically embarrassed Dowdy, muzzan, and John Quick on the same action, basically is kind of a testament to what he's capable of. And just the combination

of speed and skill through the neutral zone is so damn good. And I apologize to him once again for forgetting him on his list but yeah the top five ranking is very justified yeah Taylor Hall's like man he's he's so good the only worry I have with Taylor Hall is that like because of his style of play he's somewhat limited in like he has to be the puck carrier and when the puck carrier is always the winger there's going to be like some level of limitation you know

like maybe he I know he's never played with an elite level center I he's had Ryan New Hopkins in the best couple years that Newton Hopkins has had in the league outside of maybe this year. But, you know, I feel like for the most part, he's kind of been on an island. And similar to Max Patcheretti, right? But I feel like there's always like some untapped potential with Hall too. Like I feel like his goal numbers are not what they could be. And I know he's said recently that he sees himself as more of a playmaker, but I think he can score more. especially with the way he handles the puck and, you know, attacks the net.

I would say the only thing with his style that is, like, mildly worrying other than that is, like, he's kind of his own worst enemy. And I would be surprised that he's not constantly injured because he loves to skate with his head down and just, like, you know, he'll take a shot and then just, like, crash face first into the boards. And I believe he's injured right now because of one of those plays. And he's a guy who his first five years in the league, it seemed like every game he got caught with his head down on some big check and got blown up. And he's had his fair share of injuries. But if he could just skate with his head up a little bit more, I feel like we'd be talking about him as one of the best players in the league. Yes. Okay, the other two guys fly to Tarasenko and Akita Guthrov, who we haven't mentioned yet.

Yeah, Teresanko is interesting because. I guess it's because he just plays in St. Louis that we haven't really given him the love he deserves. But man, like, if you just look at his, like, on ice totals and then you watch him and what he's capable of and that wrist are from the right circle, it's just, he's damn good and he moves a needle. And he, I mean, yeah, I'm second behind Kuturov and didn't really think that hard about it. Like, it's, he's fantastic. That's where he belongs. Yes, he's just damn good. And then for Kutrov, the thing I'll say is, and this is the best I can say about him, when I was compiling this list, I wasn't even thinking about Kuturov versus peers at his position.

I was thinking about how Kuturov stacks up against the best centers and the best defensemen in terms of who I'd want. That says a lot. Yes. So, yeah, Kuturov. And what puts Kutrov, like, slightly above Teresango for me? Because I feel like offensively, they're pretty close. I know Kutrov is just coming off of like a 60-game run where he was scoring almost a goal per game. Right.

But I think he's just better by a fairly significant margin defensively than Vladimir Teresanko. I like Teresanko, but, you know, Tarasenko's not Oveskin defensively, but he also isn't going to go out of his way to get into shooting lanes and passing lanes to push play the other way. Similar to Patrick Kane as well. I feel like of those players, like in that upper echelon, Kutrov is the guy that you want defending. Taylor Hall as well, he's pretty good without the puck. But Kutrov is like the most refined.

And he seems to be getting better there every year as well. So that kind of ability from a winger, like you said, it kind of makes you want to compare them to centers. It's the same thing that I say with Mark Stone. Like if Mark Stone early in his career was told he would play center, I totally believe he'd be in that top 20 centers. You know, he's that good without the puck.

So it almost makes you wonder if the senators made a big mistake, but at the same time, like, their center depth isn't the worst with Brassard and to Shane. So they're not lacking either. Yeah. Well said. All right, Andrew, plug some stuff. What are you working on? Where can people find you?

Oh, well, always on Sportsnet three times a week, RDS once a week. and a new gig with the sporting news once a week as well. And I've got the podcast just came back where we're talking movies and stuff and sometimes so that's pretty much it. You can find me on Twitter at Andrew Berkshire. We did it, buddy. We finished the rankings. Did it.

We got through all 20. It only took us like three months into the season to do something we were expecting to do in October, but we did it. Yeah, well, you know, sometimes life gets in the way. Yes, better late than never. All right. Well, I appreciate you taking the comment. Time to come chat and we'll get you back on sometime down the road here.

It's my pleasure, buddy. Have a good time. Cheers. The Hockey PDOCast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Filippovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud. At soundcloud.com slash hockeypedocast.