The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 221: Making Money Moves

Episode Date: February 15, 2018

Craig Custance joins the show to discuss what to watch for as we approach this year's trade deadline. Topics include: 4:40 Working sources, and the race to breaking a trade 13:06 The Dion Phan Marian Gabo Nick Shore trade 25:00 Pierre Dorion's extension, and the future of the Senators 36:50 Jim Benning's extension, and the future of the Canucks 48:25 The most interesting teams to keep an eye out for Sponsoring today’s show is SeatGeek, which is making it easier than ever before to buy and sell sports and concert tickets. They’re giving our listeners a $20 rebate off of their first purchase. All you have to do is download the free SeatGeek app and enter the promo code PDO to get started. Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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And joining me as my good buddy, Craig Custins. Craig, what's going on, man? Nothing. How are you? I'm good. We took two weeks off or so from the PEDEOCast. I was out in Hawaii and enjoying the sun. And now I'm back in Vancouver where it's a lot colder than it was in Hawaii. So I'm trying to get reacclimated to all that.

But otherwise, it's good. We're getting into a fun stretch of the season here. You know, you got the trade deadline lead up. Then we're going to have the playoff races and the postseason and all the summer stuff. Like, this is sort of the calm before the storm. This is, it's not even the calm. Like, this is it. You know, I think I look at the All-Star game is basically when the season starts mentally for me.

You know, like I have a, you know, those October or November games, it's really hard to get really worked up about any of that. And it's funny, Pittsburgh came through town. I want to say a week or two weeks before the All-Star game. And they weren't playing really well. And there was all this concern and that Penguin's going to make the playoffs. I remember talking to Sidney Crosby, and I'm like, man, this must be hard. You know, two long runs playing in December and November. I'm like, I don't even know how you guys do it because I can barely watch these games.

And he's like, man, it's about to get really fun. Like you could tell. Like he's like, I love. You know, he's like from, they had a biweek coming up. And then he's like from that moment on, he's like, I just love that this time of year. You could. And like mentally I'm like, we were just chatting. Like it wasn't even an interview.

And I'm like, this, he's about to go crazy, isn't he? Like, the penguins are about to go out of run, and here we are. Well, not that it was necessarily a completely unique take. A lot of people shared it in the hockey world, but I feel pretty good about my, you know, let's settle down and not completely freak out about the penguins struggling early on because I feel like they have another gear to hit. And it looks like over the past couple weeks,

it certainly appears that they look like they've regained their form from the past couple years. Yeah, like I would never judge, even the team that loses in the Stanley Cup final, like those first couple months, you know, I look at them and, you know, Nash on some level, and even Washington, like these teams that had great years and then had these crushing defeats in the playoffs, I think it's just so hard to get emotionally up for those games earlier in the year. And now you can really start judging these teams. Well, the reason why I said the calm before the storm was because I'm, you know, we're hearing a lot of rumblings. And it feels like the New York Rangers especially, and we'll get into them a bit later,

are sort of the powder keg for this whole thing, where if they decide to move a couple of these guys, all hell could break loose. But otherwise, like, I don't know, we go through this dance every year, right, with the trade deadline where there's a lot of rumors and a lot of rumblings, and then we actually get to the deadline,

and it's a lot of, you know, rental third-line winger for a fourth-round pick. And it's not necessarily stuff that's going to, you know, generate a ton of buzz or attract mainstream attention from, or just otherwise casual fans. And so it's kind of, I'm hoping this year there are some names in play, especially guys with salaries still left on the deal in years to come that will hopefully, if those guys get moved, things could really get interesting because I know teams are sometimes reticent of giving up a lot for just pure rental pieces based on how we've seen the last few years play out. Yeah, I'm hearing that a lot. Like the fact that the Hansel deal didn't work out from Minnesota, Jad and Kirk, you know, they didn't get out of the second round.

And so these – and this is a weird time of view. year because when you talk to people and GMs or whoever, you don't know how much misinformation. They're just trying to, you know, if they're a buyer, they're going to downplay how interested they are in a guy because they don't want to drive up the price. But there definitely seems to be reticence. I was laughing. I was talking to someone yesterday, though, because I'm like, you know, we pump up the deadline and, hey, maybe the Rangers, it's going to be this huge thing.

And then we're like, you know what, these are usually trades made at the draft. And then at the draft, when nothing happens, we're like, you know what, these are usually rental deals. You know, we always seem to be kicking the can down the road a little bit and when it doesn't work out. But, I mean, there's going to be something interesting. And, you know, there's going to be a trade we didn't see coming. And there always seems to be that one that is interesting. Even like the Funuf deal, like, wasn't, you know, it was, it was, I mean, I know the Kings had been interested in Funnuf for a while, but it was interesting in that it happened.

And I'm not sure we were ready for it at that moment. Okay, well, we'll talk about the Funnuff deal. But you did mention there for a second, you know, how you're just talking to someone in the league. and having these discussions. That's the thing that I was most interested by in your recap at the athletic of that trade. It's that it wasn't just necessarily a pure analysis type of article.

You actually included comments from, I believe, scouts and assistant coaches. And I always enjoy that. And I feel like you're very plugged in. Like how many conversations are you having on a daily basis with guys around the league? Like, it seems like you're always chatting with people and always trading text messages or emails.

Yeah, a lot. More so this time of year. It was funny. Like I'll, I just, I space him out. And I'll, you know, you don't want to bother the same person on a daily basis. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to call this guy today. And I'm going to mentally give that guy a few day break. And then I'll call it.

And it's, and, you know, and there's even a joke. It's like, all haven't had talked to somebody since, you know, some sort of last pressure point in the league. And I'll, you know, I'll make a laugh. I'm like, sorry, I'm only bothering you during these really busy times. But there's just. But I don't see, you know, especially at the athletic and then before that, a DSP and Insider, I always felt and I feel pressure to write something that has something a little bit different in it than what you could just kind of whip together, right, by looking at cap friendly and throwing together. You know what I'm saying? So even if it's just a quick text after a deal is made to a scout or a coach or something, just, you know, I know what I think of Marion Gabbrick, but I think readers appreciate.

was a quote in the Gavrick one from the Scouts. That was like, yeah, I just saw him. He's terrible. He was terrible. And I just thought that was funny. Like, it was just kind of, you know, I mean, I don't know what that adds to the story. It was just a quick hit back and forth in a text exchange. But, you know, I think people find that stuff interesting.

Yeah. No, I agree with that. I mean, do you feel a certain increased pressure to be on top of stuff around this time of year? Because I imagine, you know, I'm sure you completely. compare yourself and your work to some of your other peers in this field. Like I obviously, I imagine that you want to get the right information, obviously, but you also, there is something to be said about being the first person on the spot and breaking a big trade or a big revelation.

Like, do you, do you feel that this time of year? Or you've been doing it for long enough now that I feel like you're probably kind of, you've got it down to more of a science as opposed to. Yeah, I have, I enjoy it. So it's not a stress. It's, I like, I'm like a trade room or junkie. I like the exchange of information. And the reason that a lot of these, you know, a lot of these guys will answer the phone

is because after you're asking information to them, they want to know, you know, what are you hearing out there? And what I have the only, and it's funny, I just had this conversation with Chris Johnson, who I absolutely ripped off your conversation with him last year. Was it last year where you talked to him about kind of the mechanism of reporting that? Which I thought was such a good episode. If you're a PDO cast listener, you didn't listen to that, go back through the archives. It was great. And so I'm like, I just, I called Chris up for the full 16.

I'm like, hey, let's just do that episode. And you and I are going to talk about this and completely rip off Dimitri. How dare you guys? How dare you guys? I think if you stay at the beginning of it, you're absolving yourself of any stealing of an idea. I feel, I feel cheated on. I mean, you're my two favorite PDO cast guests and how you guys are just spinning off and doing your own episodes. I mean, what's the word come to?

It's like, you know, Frazier's spinning off of cheers. Like it's a natural evolution of the podcast. Fair enough. All right. No, just to finish the thought, though, it's, I love it. And I don't feel the pressure. And I know Chris does, because we talked about it. And I think part of it is the TV side of it.

Like, I don't have a trade deadline show where, you know, you're on TV and you have to break something. Like, I'm a competitive person and I've got, you know, the same ego as everybody. else. And I like to get, I like to have my hand in a couple of these. But I think when you're in that like TSN Sportsnet War, it's a heightened thing that I'm, I'm, I can just, I can just report it and and have a lot of fun and try to write interesting things and feel like I'm serving the reader. Right. And I think Chris would also agree with this. And I believe he actually said that on, on that show, I did with him where, you know, I think he views himself as more of a quote unquote insider in this industry. Whereas I, I don't know, would you describe yourself as you were more of a sort of an analyst,

if anything were a storyteller. I wouldn't necessarily think of you as a pure insider. Yeah, I'm like, I mean, I don't know. I like to break things when I can. Like, I think it's, but I also like to tell really long and long form stories and analyze things and overthink things. So I feel like I'm some sort of hybrid of something. I don't know how, you know what I mean?

I'm pulling that quote. I like to break things. I just like to break things. I like to break things. Yeah, well, I guess, you know, if you love it and if you're really passionate about it, then it's not really work. I remember one of my first league events I went to was the draft in Philadelphia a few years ago. And, you know, all the media types were hanging around to the bar after one of the days.

And Bob McKenzie was just holding court and he was talking about how, you know, he has his daily routine during the season where he wakes up and he basically does a rundown of all 30 teams at the time. and he just goes in alphabetical order and he contacts at least one person from each team just to sort of get a feel for what's happening with them. And if there's anything, he should be aware of or follow through with other sources. And I was, I remember listening to it and I was obviously kind of amazed by the work ethic.

But I was also like, man, I feel like I would be very stressed if I had to constantly do that on a daily basis. But obviously he's been doing it for long enough now and doing it so well that I'm sure that, you know, it's just ingrained in him. Like he probably couldn't go a few days. I guess when he goes, at a cottage and he's drinking his wine. Maybe he can relax

a little bit, but I feel like he's a machine at this point with that. Well, that's why he's the best. I mean, like, I could never, I would feel like I would be bothering people over and over again if I went, he probably has enough context in every single team that he can, you know, if

he can go to a different person on it, from one day to the next or whatever. Or they don't care. It's Bob McKenzie. They're like, yeah, happy to talk. Do you find that sometimes people, especially as you've gained exposure and and, you know, built up sources around the league and gained a bigger following. Like, sometimes do you feel like people come to you and give you unsolicited information?

And if so, does that kind of make you a bit skeptical of sort of why they're doing so? Hmm. I, it doesn't happen often, but when there's breaking news that's that you get, you know, that's, that's great. That's in that, I don't, I'm not skeptical of it because, oh, it's usually people that I've cultivated a really good relationship with. And so, you know, we're happy. People tend to reward the way it works, people tend to reward you if you're putting in the work or they want to, you know what I mean? Like some people have their guys.

And it's like this guy is a Bob McKenzie guy. And you know, I can tell you like there's certain trades or certain teams or signings. You can, you know who's going to break. Because you just know that there's a relationship there between the main players involved. And that's gone back years. So then when you get it when you get tipped off, hey, a trade, you know, this is about to go down. It's usually with a source that you've been talking, you know, you've been working on that trade for six months or whatever. And I had one that I was so sick about that, I don't know if I told it on this story.

It was a couple years ago that I had been working with, you know, going back and forth in information and sharing information or whatever. And then finally they're like, hey, it's finally happening. It's happening. And my phone was in the other room. and I missed it by like five minutes. And they like the whole exchange works pretty like they did everything I expect. You know, they did me off. I, you know.

And it was like, are you there? Are you there? And then whatever. And then drags or somebody broke it. And I was like all that, you know, thing for this one deal. Like this is the one I wanted because I knew I was lined up to have it. And like that like that's the stuff. Like I was sick about that for like the rest of that trade deadline because it was like,

okay, that would have been a good one. Yeah. All right. Well, let's talk about a not so good. one the uh the trade between the senators and the kings that was a smooth transition um so i don't know like what does it really to say about this year i feel like people were really excited about it because you know funnuff and gaburik i guess both have uh some name value based on how long they've been in the league and and a lot of their accomplishments and we were also all so starved for something to finally happen

and if i finally feel like traded line seasons here that you know people were talking about her a lot but when you actually kind of take a step back and take a bigger picture of view of this trade I don't really think there's a lot of like big, there's a lot of ramifications to it like it's sort of just it's a bit of piece of business

for the senators especially. I don't think it helps the Kings that much so it's not that exciting of a trade but at least I guess it gives us something to talk about. Right. It really like in part of the reporting the trade grades I was like I was kind of like I texted someone I'm like

I don't know if I get this trade right off the hop. And they're like, there's, you know, there's nothing to get. Like, you have to take on a bad contract and move a bad contract. And it's like, that's all it was. I'm like, oh, you know, and the Kings marginally upgraded on defense, I guess. Or, you know, or they got a useful player, whereas I don't think Gavrick is a useful player, whereas the other team saved money. And like, those aren't the exciting kind of trades as a fan you want to see, right?

Like, hey, we're marginally better and we're, you know, whatever. But it actually, I saw where it made sense for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, for the Kings. Like, let me ask you something. Did you, so I gave it, I'm always, it's funny because I do those grades and it's more just an opportunity to analyze it. And I don't probably put as much thought into the actual grade than because people get all mad about it.

I'm like, if you knew how much thought I put into that. And, like, how would you have graded that out? I think Eugene Malick's the only person that won this trade. I should give him a separate grade. Yeah. I guess Dionneuf, it's pretty cold in Ottawa right now, and he gets to go live in L.A. I'm sure he appreciate that. But the thing is, like, with Funnuff, it's really, it's sort of difficult to evaluate him

because, you know, him and Cody C.C. playing together were one of the worst defensive pairings in the league for the past year and change from almost two years now and all of their numbers were horrible across the board and when you separate those two, Funnuf's numbers actually looked a bit better which would give you

hope that maybe it's Cody Cici's dragging him down and Funnuff could actually contribute in a better setting but then you look a bit closer and most of those minutes away from Cici were with Eric Carlson so obviously he's gonna do better in those and I believe Carlson's probably driving the bus quite a

it there. So I don't know, I'm very skeptical that Fufinov has a lot to contribute at this point of his career. He just looks like physically he can't really move around anymore. So especially with that contract, I mean, for the Kings, you know, they made a big huff this summer about getting faster and adapting to the new NHL and having this new look. And it was a great storyline early in the season and they really come back down to earth a bit here. And I don't see how Finov helps them in that regard. guard like I guess you know they definitely need help on the blue line and he'll be able to slot it in there but I don't I've seen the argument made that listen if one of if one off was playing

big minutes in Ottawa like he can he can still play it it's like well I think that was sort of out of necessity and he wasn't doing well in those minutes so I wouldn't necessarily use that as an argument for how much it's a tank it's all relative it's not a bad team or not a great yes like I'm kind of like I see that a bit with Mike green in Detroit where people are like yeah this is he's a top four defenseman for the Red Wings I'm I'm like, well, yeah, he is. Yeah. So are you and I.

I don't know, maybe bottom pair. Yeah. But, I mean, it's, you do what you have to make, you have to, you have to project a little bit and say, well, they're acquiring them because they think they're a playoff team. Is he playing in that role or whoever you're acquiring on a playoff team? And then does the price reflect that when you're doing the analysis? Now, in this case, the price was a player who, you know, has nothing left. So, right.

This is one of those trades where you see the thought process for the Kings now. It's probably fine for them now. And then two years or a year from now, they're trying to figure out how to get out from under it. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And for the senators, I mean, I think as you sort of painted it as a financial move. And that's the only way we can really view this. Gabrik has nothing left in the tank.

And, you know, if he gets bought out after this season, I believe he cost them just north of $7 million in real cash, which looks a lot better than his actual contract looks on paper right now. And I don't know, maybe they'll want to keep them around just to hit the salary cap for. But I don't know, like Nick Shore might be the best asset that was moved in this deal. So I don't. A fourth-line player. The one thing that, you know, it really struck me when I was, you know, going over all of that. And it's like, okay, how much is a gab rip buy going to cost?

And, okay, who are they going to move next? is I legitimately felt bad for Matt Duchesne. Like I was like, here's a guy that went through, you know, the disaster in Colorado, um, asked out because he wanted to be playing on a contending team,

gets traded to a team that, I guess you would have thought as a contending team, like I guess. Um, and then Colorado was, I mean, set up way better than Ottawa. Ottawa was just going to start selling off pieces to basically,

on some level when you talk to people, part of it, part of the motivation is to recoup, some of the assets lost in the Matt Duchesne trade. Yeah. And I like, what's he thinking right now? I like, and I know Matt, and he's a good dude. And I remember I actually asked him, you know, how hard it was to see Colorado

actually playing better than Ottawa. And he's such a nice guy and he answered the question. But then after, like, after I could tell he wasn't crazy about it. And, you know, I just, I legit feel bad for Matt Duchyne. Well, I think it was actually during the, during the all. our game before he got injured, but Nathan McKinnon had this sit-down interview with David Amber, and I thought one of the quotes was really enlightening where he was asked about, you know, whether he's kept in contact with Matt Duchet and, you know, how that relationship is working.

And it was funny, Nathan McKinnon just basically, I'm paraphrasing, but he said, like, yeah, I've tried to sort of keep my distance because I don't want him to think that I'm kind of rubbing in our success and making it seem like it's his fault. And it was pretty telling. Yeah, it's a top situation. I mean, listen, it's a business and he's a professional and he only has a year left on his deal. So after that, he will be theoretically able to kind of control his own destiny and figure out where he wants to go. And I don't know, maybe he gets moved again by then and the senators get to recoup some of those assets.

So I guess we'll see how that goes. But yeah, it's obviously it's not an ideal situation. And I don't think it's, you or I are saying that it's an indictment against him as a player because I think he obviously has a lot to contribute and it's just kind of a raw deal. And the hard thing is, like the reality is they should. should probably trade them, right? If you're like, okay, we're probably going to lose Eric Carlson, we're moving all these players. I think the only thing stopping them would be you're not going to get what you gave up for him, most likely. So it would look so bad. It would be such an indictment on the person making the trade that you can't, you probably can't do the right thing. Yeah,

it's really tough to save face. And I do think a big part of being a good GM in this league is, is being able to acknowledge some costs like that and sort of detach yourself from it emotionally and make the best business decision. But obviously, I mean, these are all people. And I imagine it would be really tough to sort of spin that a few months after giving up a bunch of assets to make it happen. All of a sudden, you make another trade with him going out of town and you have way less to show for it. And it's like, wow, those are a good couple months. Right.

But you know who basically did that? And he got, he's getting, and probably should be criticized for it, but at least it's an admission is Jeff Gordon in New York with, with Brennan Smith. Like, gives up whatever it was to a second and a third and signs him to a healthy contract. And like, whatever it is, six months later, they're like, oh, no, that's, that's, that's, that's not worked out at all. And it's, it's an, I mean, on some level, you're like, boy, what a screw up. But it's also like, hey, at least they're not like compounding the problem by, you. either keeping him around or whatever. Well, I agree. I think it's a bit different because with the Brendan Smith situation, I think it's tougher for Jeff Gordon because it's like it's an individual player, right? So this summer, I imagine when they were figuring out what they were going to do with Brendan Smith, they evaluated him and what he contributed.

And they obviously came to the conclusion that they should give him the contract they did. And then now it's been a couple months and it's like where, unless he's injured, like how do they go so horribly wrong? wrong with him because at his age, I can't imagine that he just randomly fell off the table skills wise. Whereas with Matt Dushain, it's, you know, for the senators, they could be like, well, there's a lot of other different circumstances. The team clearly wasn't as good as we thought they were, but there's a bunch of different moving parts and it's not necessarily just a one-for-one. So I could see them spinning it more easily like that. But yeah, when you stack up what they

gave up for Matt Dushain versus what they're going to get back for him, it's going to be a tough bill to swallow. Yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's, it's interesting. But like, I'm not trying to defend it, but, you know, Brendan Smith is under 30 years old. I don't, like, was good for the Rangers down the stretch. His, you know, his analytics have always been good. You know, Red Wings fans in Detroit, I've always, like, thought he was underutilized.

And he's, you know, the number, like, that contract wasn't signed and everyone was going, oh, boy, they screwed up. Like, it's a weird situation. Like, I feel like there's a little bit too much of, what a huge screw up. How could you not know this about this player? I didn't hear a soul when they signed him saying,

ooh, that's, that's a bad one. Yeah, you know. I thought it's a reasonable deal. And Brendan Smith's always been one of those guys, uh, kind of like a Lars Eller type where there was a lot of pedigree coming in and people thought that he could be a star. And then when guys don't achieve that status,

they're sort of viewed unfairly as a disappointment or whatever. And you can't like evaluate him for the player they are right now instead. Right. And I always thought, I mean, he was never, you know, rack up the points or anything like that. but I thought he was very good defensively, and I was perfectly fine with that deal. So I guess it was just a bit jarring to see the 180 they went through with him

and sort of conceding defeat and sending him down to the H.L. Right. I guess I haven't watched the Rangers enough to know how bad he's been or what, like I didn't realize it's gone that sour for him. Well, yeah, it's kind of weird too, because if they are sort of becoming sellers this year, that means they're kind of acknowledging that this year is done for them. so I don't really see what the benefit is in sending him down today, H.L.

Like, I don't know. They might have just been thinking that someone might have claimed no on waivers, honestly. Yeah, maybe. It is a bit weird. Like, is he that, you know, I would at least be trying to pump up his value at this point. And saying, hey, we'll retain some of the salary. And you get a 29-year-old defenseman who just one year ago cost a second and the third round pick. Like, is it bottomed out that much?

It is. Yeah, that's interesting. It's weird. All right, well, let's kind of segue here then with the discussion about the senators to discuss the Pierre Dorian extension that was conveniently buried on a Friday last week. And we'll discuss Jim Benning as well, which was more recent. But with the senator's situation, I guess just like this trade we were talking about with Funnuff going out of town, it's so tough to evaluate anything going on in Ottawa because of, of the meddling with ownership and the sort of financial landscape there. Like, it's, I don't, does anyone have a good sense of how good Pierre Dorian is at his job?

Like, people seem to talk highly about him and they like him. His trades and moves and the roster the senators have now as a result aren't very glowing, but it's, it's tough to know how much of that is him and how much of that is decisions that were made because of other extenuating circumstances. so I just don't really have a good feel for it. Yeah, I don't either. I guess I wasn't surprised because you're never surprised about GM moves. There's, like there's, there doesn't ever, you know, it's not always logic, right?

I mean, you see these moves and you're like, I guess, I guess there's a relationship there with the owner or whatever. But I, I mean, I haven't been blown away by anything he's done. I think sometimes when you make a run in a playoffs, it just throws everything out of whack, right? In terms of, and people, and I'm sure the inverse is true where you have a disappointing thing that's probably not your fault as a GM, you pay the price for it. Right. I'm sure on some level, because he's reaping the rewards of last spring.

And when ultimately, let's talk to someone else about this, they said, what did Otto, essentially Ottawa went, they were all seven game series, right? So they would have gone four and three, four and three, three and four. So what is that? Add that up. It's eight, eleven, and whatever. Seven, eight, nine. They went 11 and 10, right?

No. No, I think they, didn't they beat the Bruins in six? Was the six? Whatever it was. It was like, had they done that, you know, in the course of a regular season, no one's even noticing them. You know, it wasn't like it was a silly, we were just kind of laughing. Like basically the point was, you know, that's how close they were to not not having that run.

And when you start making decisions like long-term decisions based on something that happened in this window of time, and I'm not saying necessarily that happened with the GM, but I'm sure it contributed to it, I think you can maybe make mistakes. And it comes in the form of acquiring a player, maybe using young assets on a player because you think you're closer than you are. and maybe that happen on that to Shane. It comes in giving contract extensions to players who are really good in that small window, but maybe not really good overall. And I don't know if they have an example of that.

I love Peugeot. I thought Peugeot was awesome. He got to, like he's a, I don't mind that signing. I think they'll be able to move him. But you see that all the time where teams go on these runs and then a guy gets rewarded over, you know, where in round one, if one more goal is scored, you don't have that run. And I just think you have to be very careful making long-term decisions based on a small

window of time. I agree. Yeah. Just so people don't yell at you on Twitter. Both are the senators series against the Bruins and the Rangers went to six. And then the Penguins are seven. They were all seven. They were all really close.

It was all one goal. Yeah. All right. Yeah. I agree. Correct. But I mean, yeah. Your point stands.

The point was essentially was it could have gone. on the other way for Ottawa fairly easily. You know what you mean? Yeah. Well, it's tough. Yeah, they clearly misjudged how good they were based off of that, adding into this season with the Duchesne trade. And the thing that I don't like about this roster,

I mean, there's a lot, I guess, to choose from. But the thing I especially don't like is how much they've committed, especially in term, to depth players. And you know nothing or two about this, covering the Red Wings up close and personal like that. But that's one of my biggest pet people. in hockey when third pairing guys and third and fourth liners get you know multi-year deals and you're just attaching so much risk to it with very little upside and i don't know like a lot of these

moves like the trading for alex burroughs and then signing him and yeah it seems like they have i mean nate thompson's out the door now but it seems like i guess they brought in nick shore they have so many of these like fourth-line types that are under contract for at least a couple more years and it's just it's a bizarre way to do business i guess it's it's one way to sort of um decrease costs and and keep the salaries low but it doesn't really set you up well moving forward if things go south like they have this season so so like what's the move that pierre durean has made that you're really excited about in his tenure there honestly isn't one i mean so he took over after the 2015-16 season yeah i'm looking it up right now so you i'll buy me some

time here while I'm looking at all of it. She's getting a pretty raw deal because last I checked on NHL trade tracker, you can sort by moves by GMs and he doesn't even have his own page yet. Yeah, Brian Murray is the that's bizarre. It'd be a hilarious troll job if there was a Eugene Melnick page

on there. Right. And so that's the other thing. And tying this back to the trade deadline because I've been asking a lot like GMs, are you based on what happened last are you less eager to give up a first round pick?

And they're like, look, a lot of times I bet you GMs don't even want to make a deal. But you have often in those situations, the owner gets involved. And the owner sees a potential of a long playoff run and what that means financially. And there's pressure that comes down from on high to make some of these moves. And when you're talking about an owner in Ottawa who is an absolute wild card, I think it is really hard. to to evaluate the general manager without because I can't parse what are Pierre Dorian's moves and what are moves motivated by ownership. I can't either.

I mean, I'm looking at their page right now in Cap Friendly. I really don't like a lot of stuff they've done. I mean, like, the Mike Condon story was good last year, but so they basically, a guy who was on waivers, they wound up trading for him and giving up a pick, even though it was a late pick and then they signed him this summer to a three-year deal for a backup goalie. Like I thought, I think that's pretty bizarre. I mean, there's a lot of stuff. Yeah, the Burroughs one is inexplicable, you know, trading a top prospect for him and

then giving him a multi-year deal, which already looks horrible. Cricket- Anderson contract's really nice. It always has been. Yeah, but he's not, I mean, with him, I mean, he's 36 now and he's not playing well. And it's curious to see how that works out. I'm fascinated to see this is a big stretch here for them and it's even beyond

the elephant in the room with Eric Carlson contract situation and whether he'll sign long term or whether he'll get traded because there's some other big decisions here to make like the Matt Duchyne thing we just talked about there is an avenue for them to recoup some of those assets here in a trade

Mike Hoffman should go for a couple of premium assets if they do move him. I'm fascinated to see what they do with a guy like Derek Brassard for example. Yeah. And then, you know, this summer they have Mark Stone and Cody Cici both looking for new deals as restricted free agents.

And I love Mark Stone. I think he should get paid a lot. I'm curious to see whether they're going to be willing to pay him what he's worth. And with Cody Cici, I'm fascinated to see whether they're going to be confident enough to finally pull a plug on this and not commit to him long term just to try to save face and prove that he actually is going to be a valuable contributor for them. So there's a bunch of stuff here. that to me is where the value of a new a new voice comes in where they can come in fresh and

the map duchin isn't their issue or cc they're not invested they're not invested in cc they can make a very analytical decision and i think there's a lot of it even if it's not the gm and bringing in an outside voice and and like i've made this case in detroit like i i desperately think there's a uh a need for a fresh voice in the front office and and and like i've made this case in detroit And I'm not even saying like run everybody out like get somebody in to say look, you know, here's the perception of what you guys are doing and here's the perception the honest evaluation of You know of your of your players because I think teams sometimes have a hard time evaluating their own players. They always overvalued their own players. It seems like All right. So here's I pulled up the page Pierre Dorian was hired in April of 2016. Okay. So his made his first

The first main move was the Bresard versus Bidijad. Right. How do you feel about that? You know, Bersard had a really good year for them last year. I like me because of Binajad much more as a player moving forward. Some of that was also, I believe, financially motivated based on their respective deals. So that's kind of a tough one to evaluate. And I think that's going to be a recurring trend here.

And they got a second round pick too. Like there hasn't been a ton. And then it's like, you know, the Burroughs deal, which we didn't like. Stalberg for a third, you know, Curtis Lizar for a second. Getting a second for Lazar was good. Yeah, that was. And then the Matt Dish, you know, Brandon Gormley and then Matt Dushane. So like, it is, it is a bit unfair.

So we're talking about 2016. We're talking two years. Like that's not a, that's not enough time to evaluate a general manager. Yeah. But he was also there as, as Murray's right-hand man for. a while, right? Sure. So I mean, he, you know, so is Brian McClellan in Washington.

And I think he's done things completely differently than what, how George McPhee. Yep. No, I agree with that. Yeah, it's, uh, it's a tricky situation. I guess we'll, we'll see how, uh, how he handles this trade deadline and this summer. Uh, there's a bunch of big moves for them to make. And I, I imagine we'll have a, uh, a better sense of how good he is as a GM moving forward after that.

but it was a bizarre sort of sequence for them to make. Let's take a quick break here to hear from a sponsor, and we're going to talk about a bunch of other stuff on the other other things. I know the playoffs are pretty damn exciting, but for my money, we're currently either in or about to enter the best time the year to be a hockey fan. The games are picking up an intensity level. It feels like every single point that's up for grabs is worth that much more

because of the ramifications of the playoff race. And with the trade-ed line approaching, lineups are going to wind up looking different here. And if you're a fan of a particular team and they're going to make some new moves, you're going to want to be around to see how their new acquisitions look in their new digs. So let's help get you there to see all that action for yourself.

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And best of all, my listeners today, get $20 off their first Seek purchase. Just download the SeekyK app and enter the promo code PDO. That's promo code PDO for $20 off your first Seek purchase. Now let's get back to Craig Custons. All right, the other extension, Craig, was the Jim Benning one. And I feel much more confident discussing his track record here because he was hired after the 2013-14 season. his list of moves is much more extensive. Yeah.

And listen, the argument... Anytime someone starts with listen, it's always great. I have something to get off my chest here, Craig. So there's a lot of stuff being said here in the local market of Vancouver about praising Jim Benning. Sort of the prospect pool he's accumulated, how, you know, he got Brock Besser in the late first round, how you know it's actually Mike Gillis's fault of the roster is where it is now because Jim Benning took over

sort of a scrap heap and he had to make do and it's going to take time to get out of that hole and listen that's all well and good but we're in year four now and there isn't really any discernible sort of sign that they're on the right track or that there's a legitimate plan like a succession plan in place

um better has been obviously a revelation and he's been great and I think that's a huge boon for them but you know beyond that and a bunch of elias peterson uh youtube videos there isn't really much there like I'm not the biggest bull horvath fan in the world I think he's fine but I don't think he's necessarily a foundational building block and the toughest part for me to overlook here is you know if your argument is Jim benning took over a team that desperately needed to rebuild and they were aging and they needed to get younger like he's made deals where he's given up 13 draft picks and he's gotten nine back with a conditional one in there,

I believe. So it's like for a guy who was billed as someone that would come in and help with the drafts and help rebuild his team with his scouting eye, there isn't really much actual meat to that argument or substance when you actually kind of peel back a couple layers. So I just, it's a really tough one for me to reconcile that they believe that this team is on the right track and that he warrants another at least couple years to be the guy calling the shots. Is there still the notion that they're going to bring in somebody above him? I don't know. There was a lot of Ken Holland buzz for a while.

And there's some Stan Bowman talk with, we'll talk about the Blackhawks more in a second here. But yeah, there was some buzz for that. But I mean, with this extension, I don't know if that necessarily quiets that chatter, but it seems like he's pretty safe for this organization, which. I don't know, what do you, what do you think about it as a sort of an outside perspective? I mean, I agree with almost everything you said. I've at least warmed up to the, not warmed up, I'm willing to consider the idea of accumulating young talent without tearing it all down.

Now, where I think they've made mistakes was, you know, signing Louis Erickson. Like that doesn't mesh. You know what I mean? Like, because I have this debate so often in Detroit with like, because Ken Holland and Jim Benning have similar approaches. And I see what the Rangers are doing. And I'm like, yes, you know, better to be bad for a couple years than to have, you know, than to be stuck in mediocrity.

But, you know, I'm sure Jim Benning in analyzing his approach to the Canucks is like, there's also lots and lots of examples of these teams that have tore it down and just can't get it back up to the level, you know, to a competitive level. So maybe there is something to the notion that you don't drop so far down that when some of these young players are actually good, you're not as far off. You know what I'm saying? And I just haven't seen an example of that working. And that's always like my counterpoint. Like I can point to examples of where teams, tore it down, got young talent, and are now cup contenders. I don't know a good example of a team that maintained some competitive, you know, tried to be competitive every year, added young players, and then was a cup contender.

I'm willing to concede it's possible, though, I guess, where I wasn't maybe a year ago. Just because I've seen the other side with Edmonton now bad again and Buffalo bad again, like these tear-down jobs that I, like, I applaud. it to Murray. I'm like, man, he's doing, he's making these hard decisions and he's doing it the right way. And like these teams are having a real hard time getting back up. And so I'm now willing to concede that there is another strategy that makes sense, especially in a draft lottery where if you tear it so far down and you only have a 30% chance of getting the one, like maybe

there's not as much value there. Yeah. I just, I don't know. I agree with that. But it's all sort of It's all you're working with probabilities right and if you can I agree You can increase your chances at getting Rasmus Dahl in the summer you even if it's by a couple percentage points I think it's probably worth it And the ironic thing with the Canucks is like they wanted to Do that sort of thing where they rebuilt on the fly and never actually bottomed out

But I hate to break it to people but they're they basically bottomed out I mean they've been like a bottom two to three team in the league for the past three seasons so Right. Unintentionally, they sort of stumbled into this massive overhaul. The problem is they don't have that many, you know, young, high-upside assets as they should for a team that has had as little success as they've had the past few years. And, you know, we're talking. Part of it is bad breaks, right? I don't know about that. In terms of lottery.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's all I'm saying there. Like, we're probably looking at the Jim Benning, and I'm not trying to defend them because I'm not, like, completely sold. but we're looking at his era completely differently if they just happen to get a ping pong ball to bounce the right way or even have not bad luck.

Like I feel like there was a year or two where they just got passed over. Yeah, but I mean, you know, there's a lot of stuff there as well. Like they took Oli U.Olevia ahead of Matthew Kachuk. They took Jake Vatanin over Willie Nealander, Niklai Eilers. That's the bad one. The Kachua, here's where I'm at.

If you're drafting, if you're tearing it down and you're going through the painful process or even none of you're tearing it down, if you're just bad, it's hard. And you don't want to be bad very long. And so if I'm drafting in the top five, it has to be Alex Ovechkin for me to take a winger, right? As good as Matthew Kachuk is. Like, I'm always trying to take the defenseman or the center because that's the only time you're going to get a crack at the high-end defense center centers. So, and I'm, again, like, and it's hard to, I think young defensemen are especially hard to project. But I don't mind not, like, I would be harder on a team that took a winger who failed, like a nail Yakopov, let's say. Like, that to me is a huge mistake because not only did you take a, your pick didn't work out, it was a guy in a wing.

Like, my God. Yeah, that's a tough one. But, like, just like we're talking about with the senator is one of the worst things that could have happened, was the Canucks made the playoffs sort of surprisingly in Jim Benning's first year. And I feel like that sort of kind of convinced them that they were ahead of schedule and that they could rebuild this thing on the fly. And then, you know, they trade for Ben and Sutter. And it's all this stuff.

Louis Erickson contract. And they sort of kind of talked themselves into this being much quicker than it ultimately will wind up being. And that's a tough thing for them to come to terms with. And I don't know. I just, I ultimately would like for this team to have accumulated more assets during this time, I guess, is all. Yeah, that's fair. They haven't, and that's the most disappointing part. But, I don't know.

Can I ask you something along the GM lines? Tyler Delo tweeted out something, and I'm paraphrasing, but that a part of a, part of the job of the GM is, you know, is kind of the public face of the team. And on some level, it's public relations. or media, you know what I'm saying? Like it's, it's, so if your entire fan base is angry about bringing a guy back, is there something to be said for, look, we have, like, we are an entertainment thing, entity that's trying to appeal to a fan base. If you're on the fence on a guy, isn't, isn't the better move than to make the change?

Yeah, I definitely feel like people in Vancouver Road have been pretty excited if, uh, if they went a different route, whether it was this summer or right now immediately. And I don't know, like, let's get into a bit of a trade-line discussion here because the Canucks do have, I mean, it's sort of a sad state of affairs and really telling about who's available in the next couple weeks. But Eric Good Branson and Thomas Vanek are presumably two of the more appealing assets in terms of pure rentals that will be available. And they could recoup a couple nice assets there and get some draft picks or prospects. Yet there's chatter, and some of this might just be leverage and sort of posturing,

but there's chatter. They're exploring, just bringing both guys back and signing them as opposed to trading them, which I think would be completely indefensible, obviously. So I don't know. That has to be some sort of leverage, because I see that happens. And you're like, you're not going to sign Thomas Vanek. Yeah, but I think the good brands and one would be much more concerning, especially with the, I forget who reported this or who said this, but it was, they viewed it as

you know somewhere in the ballpark of four years and four and a half million per or something like that and that wow that would be that would be a tough bill to swallow the I mean my thoughts on eric abrandson as a player are well known by now and I would uh if you could get any sort of picks back for him I think you have to do it but that's one of those things where you know when they traded for them they you know they were talking him up and they gave up a couple of really intriguing assets including Jared mccann who was a first round pick by Jim benning and now it's sort of one of those things where they might sort of just want to save face a little bit because they don't want to admit that they went horribly wrong with that good Branson train.

Yeah. My friend Frank Provinzano has a saying that the first mistake is always the easiest one to kind of recoup. So like where people get into trouble is when they compound it in the mistake. So if you can, if you can fix your things as close to the first mistake as possible, it's you're better off. and the faster you can admit it, the better off you are. It's when you make mistakes three, four, and five,

extend the guy after trading for a bad contract. You know what I mean? That's when you start digging a hole. And again, that's where the value of a new regime or a fresh voice comes in where they're like, that's not my mistake, the good brands deal. You know what I mean? They can be very calculated and, like,

that's where I think the value of a fresh set of eyes pays off. Yeah, I agree with that. Okay, well, so we have, what, two weeks now, a bit less till the trade deadline. And, you know, just looking at the landscape, our friend Pierre LeBron, did a nice little preview at the Athletic, where he sort of lumped teams into whether they were buyers or sellers. And by my account, he had only seven or eight teams as actual true sellers at this deadline, which sort of speaks to a bit of the issue here. where it just seems like there isn't enough to go around.

So I don't know, maybe that'll lead to some pretty exorbitant prices being paid because teams get desperate, but it could also just lead to a pretty underwhelming deadline where there's a lot of chatter, but nothing actually really actually comes together. I hope not. But like, I did a list of rentals earlier this week for the athletic. And I initially I'm like, hey, I'll do a top 20 or a top 20.

top 25, I think I got to 13 and I had to stop. Yeah, when you got the Matt call in, you were like, all right. I'm like, I think we're done here. And it's like the list of available rentals and so actually today when I'm done with this I'm doing a non-rental list. I think that is way more intriguing

because then you're talking about you know, Eric Carlson and Ryan McDonough and like that that to me is where this trade deadline is potentially fascinating. That's why you know, the Rangers waving the white flag, maybe the most significant thing that that happened at this deadline because it was a very

underwhelming group of players and that that's still a pretty decent team it's not like they're horrible and and so like they're the the great hope to save this trade deadline because there's some really interesting names New York yeah I agree with that and you know every year around this time we hear about how teams are looking to to add center depth and add a puck moving defenseman and those are two things that are sorely lacking in the rental market, which is why we're going to hear Mike Green's name way more often than we should, and he'll probably go for a pretty nice price. So it's going to work out for the Red Wings, but it's beyond him, there isn't very much to choose from, which is why those guys and

Ekman Larson's another name there that are under contract and will go for big prices are going to generate a lot of the attention and would be appealing to teams that are trading for him because you'd get presumably two runs at the Stanley Cup with them, which is obviously much more appealing than just the one. Yeah, it's, it's always the debate this time of year, right? Like the, yeah, you get more for them, but if you're the selling team, like, how many teams are in a McDonald right now? Let's say Tampa, maybe Boston, you know, you're really limiting your market.

Whereas this summer, cap goes up, you know, the teams that are tucking money away for John Tavares, which there are some, are going to know one way the other if they need, that money has been freed up. So now if you're the Rangers, you really, I think. think you've opened up your options. So that's why, you know, that's why I'm always hesitant to say these deals are going to get done before the deadline, even with the lure of an extra playoff. Yeah.

So who are the most interesting teams for you to watch in these next 10 days or so? Well, I mean, Tampa is the one that everyone is assuming is going to make some sort of big deal. And it just depends on what it looks like. I mean, there's, you know, they're connected to McDonough, and that makes a lot of sense. There's also, you know, Steve Eisenman, he spends a lot of time in Detroit anyways, but he's been in every, you know, the last few Red Wings game that I've been at. And with a couple other Tampa scouts, obviously probably looking at Mike Green. And there's even speculation that that deal could expand out a little bit.

They probably would like to add a top six forward in Tampa. So the Red Wings have interesting non-rentals and guys like Nyquist and Tatar that might, you know, if you retain some salary, those guys look really appealing. So in terms of buyers, yeah, I think Boston's an interesting one because They're You know, before this year you probably weren't like, okay, that's a team that's going to win the Stanley Cup And now they've had to recalibrate themselves And I was like maybe that's a team next year that would be the one to make a push

But at this point, if you're Boston, why not make a push? And I think the mentality with the Bruins right now and kind of having conversations is that they're not going to do like they have some good young players that are playing well and they're not going to bring in a veteran just to push that guy down or whatever but if they can make a if they could make the best

move of the trade deadline like there may be more of a willingness to do that like the big move that that's the obvious upgrade or or they'll fall back and do like we're just going to add some depth in case our guys contributing now go down so I think I'm fascinated by what Boston will do and

Don Sweeney has I mean he's shown he'll wheel deal like I love GMs that you know you look at their ammo and you you know they'll make trades and the other one to me in terms of buyer is Jimmy Rutherford in Pittsburgh you know when you talk to you get the sense like he's frustrated he hasn't already made a deal yet like he is he is raring to go the one thing with them is Riley Shane's been pretty good for them lately you know there's there's a lot of speculation they're in on every center you know Brissard Bejoe Letestu

Colin and so I think they have to figure out you know how badly they need a number three center so but i i would expect jim rutherford again this is we're talking about windows and and this is a a team that that is trying to win now the one i the one team i had heard and this is why i talked to bob murray in a great q&a for the athletic if you haven't read it check it out he uh i'd heard the ducks were really aggressive and to expect a big move basically because it's like how many more years of guts laugh and Perry and Kessler do they have. So you might as well.

And there's a lot of wingers available and that's probably what they need to add. But man, if you read the conversation I had with Bob Murray, he didn't sound like a guy too easy. Like he just basically ran his team down out of frustration. Did you talk to him before or after they lost their Red Wings and regulation? This was, I talked to him the afternoon of that game. So he was most frustrated. They lost to the sharks who were on the second game of back to back.

and he's just like we haven't played a team game and every big game we play awful and like he's just like man in the past you have a vibe around your team and it was it was interesting to hear him say this he's like there's just yeah you have a feeling around a team and you can tell if a group is kind of special or not and those are the ones that you don't mind giving up a first round pick and he's like I do not feel that at all like this isn't a team that's playing as a team and he doesn't have that vibe It's like we all look at it very analytically and you wonder how often these And I'm not discounting it. I think there's some value there where you just can you have a vibe about a team that's

Focused or digging in and trying to do something special. Yeah, I actually do agree with that, but I think people will be surprised, but I definitely think there's a You got to read the room a little bit. Those teams that are sort of at that crossroads are obviously the most interesting because Depending on which way they go they could really swing the pendulum for this trade deadline. And, you know, one of the most fascinating things for me is the New York Islanders. And I know you and I have talked about them quite a bit here, especially the, uh, the John Tavares, uh, looming free agency. And we've gotten into that. And I don't really want to talk about,

uh, what's going to happen with, with him. I'm just, we're so curious about this team because I don't know if you saw this, but their fans on Twitter started this, uh, this go fund me to, uh, to raise money to put up billboards, raising awareness about how, uh, Garth Snow needs to be replaced. And yeah, okay, that's a problem. It goes back to the fan. Like, your fan base is unhappy here. You know what I mean?

Craig. Like, there's unhappy and then there's raising $6,000 in less than 24 hours. Um, that's, it's pretty, yeah, it's pretty hectic. And honestly,

like, you don't ever, I want to word this carefully because we're talking about human beings here and you don't want to, you don't want to, you don't really talk about recklessly about people losing their jobs. But I think with Garst Snow, there's like one thing to be said about being patient and calculated and biting

your time. But man, with the current situation there, with Tavares' free agency, with some of the contracts they have, with the cap space, with the assets in terms of draft picks that they've accumulated, like, there's a, and the obvious need for goal prevention in any capacity, whether that's whether that's with a goalie or with defensemen. Like, I think that, you know, they're in this race. They obviously have the guys up front and their offense is terrifying. And I think if they could make a few a couple moves even if there were smaller ones i don't think anyone would really want to play them in a playoff series but they're just they're just standing pat and they seem comfortable doing so and i think that that's a i would be if i was an islanders fan i think

you'd be justified in being angry because it seems like a wasted opportunity with every day that passes for sure like did you read the q and a that arthur stable did with him and the athletic and it was like he there was no acknowledgement that this year is is a little bit different than five years ago or two, you know what I mean? Like your franchise player is making a decision about whether or not he's going to stay here. The kind of player that you get once every 10 years and you're, and you're like, you know, maybe we'll even sell.

And it, like there's no acknowledgement that, man, this, there has to be some urgency here to do something good. And, and you can't take the 10 year view constantly. You know, sometimes you ramp it up a little bit. And, man, if, like, you want to give the guy to the benefit of the doubt and that maybe he knows something we don't know about Tavares or whatever. But if Tavaris walks and they don't get a thing for him and that's just that and they didn't, they made no moves to try to improve this team for the trade deadline, I don't know how you can justify bringing him back as a general manager. Yeah.

And we're not even acknowledging the, you know, the situation with the building and the move to there. and it's like there's just so much going on and it seems like a perfect opportunity to I don't know excite your fans there's a franchise that hasn't had much going on over the past however many years and they're just like yeah okay cool whatever we'll see what happens and I it's very lazy fair right now I'm willing to give him I'm willing to say he's he's just saying things because he doesn't he's trying not to drive up the prices there's Garth snow has nothing to gain by saying we're going to be super aggressive we have to make a move to appease John Tiberis or

this is a huge deadline for us. Like I get that. So if he's just slow playing this because he doesn't want to drive up prices, I respect that and I understand that thought process. So I'm withholding judgment. But if two weeks from now

the deadline passes and they don't do a thing, man, that's indefensible to me. Yeah. Okay, I've got four other teams here on my list of interesting teams to keep an eye out for. Obviously see the rangers i mean we discussed them um it's interesting that they're selling despite technically being in this race and i think lunkwist being there and as good as he is and with his

age um really complicates things especially in terms of like the other day i was watching them play the winnipeg jets and they were getting outplayed pretty thoroughly as that game went on but lunk was so good that he just stole two points for them and i don't unless they are going to rebuild this thing on the fly although it seems like they actually actually are interested in doing a proper rebuild where they get younger and sell off a bunch of pieces, it's going to be tough to do so with him being as good as he is. Like he's going to win them just enough points, not to really bottom out, but not be good enough around him to actually make a run of this thing, especially if they're selling guys off.

So I'm kind of curious to see whether they do really commit to it and trade. McDana especially because it does seem like Grabner and Rick Nash are going to be gone. but if McDonough goes, that could be really fascinating. Yeah, I mean, you have to assume that he'd be part of the, if you're doing it properly, what are you keeping Ryan McDonough around for, you know, 30 years old when that contract expires? The thing about him that's really fascinating is on some, he's almost like their version of Keith Yandel, where he's already valuable at 4.7, his cap it, but if he's 2.5, whatever the half of 7 is, Yeah.

3-5. That's, holy cow, for Ryan McDonough, under 3 million, like that, his price take goes way up. Like, that's such a valuable thing to have. You're talking about two years left, so two playoff runs, a guy under 3 million that can play on your top pair. Like, aside from Eric Carlson, I don't know who else would have more value than that.

Yeah, that's true. And he's also a guy who hasn't been necessarily in the most ideal situations over his career in New York, in terms of who he's been playing with and he's still done really well. So, yeah, he'd be a very intriguing target. Two other teams here that I have are the Oilers and the Habs. And the reason why I bring them up, I mean, the Oilers have Pat Maroon and Mark Letest too to sell off and the Canadians have, I guess, Thomas Blakanish.

But it's not necessarily the sexiest names, but more so both those teams have a bunch of cap space. And I think that they kept that cap space heading into this year because they thought their season would turn out much differently. and they'd be able to take on money to help them win. And that obviously won't be the case now, but maybe you can get creative and use that to help facilitate some trades

where you're taking on some bad money in the short term and getting some intriguing assets for basically being part of that deal. Like we don't think of those two teams as the types that would do so. We usually think of the coyotes of the world, you know, taking on salary to get to the floor and getting back, picks or prospects in return, but I don't know if those two, like, Cap Space is a valuable asset,

especially this time of year. I mean, we were just talking about the penguins eyeing a guy like Derek Brassard, for example, I don't know, the Oilers or Habs, if they got involved in a three-team deal of sorts, could help make that a much easier reality by just taking on a bunch of money and helping make the financials work. So, I don't know, stuff like that is in terms of, you're talking about how you trade rumors and thinking about this stuff. That stuff really excites me thinking about creative three team deals

that would make something like that happen. Yeah, I feel like the teams that would need to move salary, the problem, I guess, on some level, I feel like a lot of them, the salary goes beyond this year. You know what I mean? Like on those sellers. So like if you're trying to move Carl Hagelin or something, and you're the penguins or whatever it would be,

I feel like a lot of those guys, the Oilers have to be careful. And I guess Montreal, that you're not. putting yourself in a bad spot for next year too right yeah that's true but i'm with you like that's that's a good thought like not you know is cap space is every much an asset is a draft pick or a player and teams have to treat it like that um the Chicago Blackhawks um I bring them up not because they have assets for a trade at this time of year but things are really going off the rails right now in Chicago. And I don't know, I guess I just wanted to talk about them a little bit

because I'm curious to see how this thing turns out and whether we're going to see some sort of resolution or big move made now or it seems like probably more of a summer thing, right? Yeah, but like what kind of result? Are you talking roster-wise? Are you talking between the GM and the coach? Both, especially, I guess most interesting would be GM and coach because it does seem like there's quite a bit of friction there.

and it doesn't seem like it's a long-term solution. I think both those guys would be hot commodities if they became available. So I don't know. I'm fascinated to see how that power structure works out. Because, yeah, in terms of on-ice personnel, like, we know about the bad contracts, and it just seems like they're going to have a very tough time moving them, so I don't really see what the solution is there. It's funny because, I mean, we talk about the bad contracts in Chicago,

and for the most part throughout the tenure of the Blackhawks kind of successful Stanley Cup contention we praise Stan Bowman and how he handled the contracts like he was constantly running good contributing players out of town for financial reasons and and still even so like it's not like he's sitting with Andrew Shaw whatever his number is you know he made he made tough decisions constantly every off season and really like the bad contracts it's one guy to me it's Brent Seabrook like that he made one mistake like who like what other you can't be mad about Kane and Taves at 10 sorry like you just can't be like what are you going to do not sign those two guys right three years ago or whatever it was

like so I'm not mad at those contracts I thought Cory Crawford was a bad contract when he initially signed it and that that that's that's not a problematic contract it's true it's one track. It's Brent Seabrook. Yeah, finding a way to, whether you package out with picks, I guess, but that would help them a lot if they caught that off the books. Yeah, it'll be interesting to watch because it is such a massive fall from grace. I mean, this has been coming for a few years now and every year in the preseason over the past three seasons or so, I've been like, man, I think this could be it. I think this could be the year the Blackhawks, just the playoffs. And then I've been kind of gun shy about

doing so because there is so much talent there. But now you watch them. And I mean, it's, it's almost a certainty that they're going to miss out this year. And it's just, it is such a a sort of weird, weird visual and all the stuff that's going on and, you know, they're getting booed and their fans are freaking out. And I'm just fascinated to see what comes of it. Yeah, it will be interesting. The one thing, again, giving Stan Bowman credit, like, you didn't like, or you don't like, and nor should you, the depth long-term deals. So, like, if you pull up the Chicago Blackhawks cap-friendly page, they're top-heavy. Like, it's, you don't like, It's cane, taves, sod, and Isamov.

And then a million, 20-year-olds, all making less than a million. So I don't, so that to me is an easier problem on some level to get out of if you're the, you just have to upgrade those lower level contracts. And if you're going to be bad for a couple years, maybe you're, maybe you're going through something like the Bruins did where they just took a smaller step back. They accumulated some first round picks. All of a sudden you've got Charlie McAvoy showing up and Brandon Carlo or whoever it is and or Pasternak.

And now, boom, you're back in business with the same guys, Bergeron and Marcian and Chara that got you there initially. Like I could envision that for the Blackhawks. It doesn't have to go the way of like, let's say Detroit, for that reason that they don't have a bunch of second tier guys on long-term contracts. I mean, Craig, they've been paying their depth guys. Look at Brent Seabrook's deal. Come on.

He's an Olympic defenseman. I mean, I will say, well, I mean, like a Tara Vinen would look really nice on this team right now. And they sort of, they had to give him up to get rid of a depth contract. They gave the Brin Bickle, for example. Yeah, that's good. Like, look, it hasn't been perfect. But every single, every team has them. And it's one of the reasons Vegas is so good because they just, they had a clean slate

to work with. So they're not set. Like there's no drag in terms of the production out of the money they're spending. And, and, you know, name the best GM in the league. Like, let's say you think it's Steve Eisenman. Steve Eisenman has signed some bad contracts in his day. Yeah. A few of them.

And then had to get out of, get out from under him. And he's been deft in maneuvering that. Like, I think the work he did at the trade deadline last year and then with the Drew End deal was, was great in setting up this year. But look, like, that's, this is a guy that we think maybe the best. and, you know, they all have them. So, you know, it's minimizing them. And I think you minimize them by not spending or not committing to players who aren't

your core guys. Well, let's see the discussion for another day, but I think that, you know, the Bowman versus Quenville conversation is a really interesting one because I do like the job Bowman's done. And I think that he wouldn't be out of a job for a long time if the Blackhawks had decide to go that way, but I don't know if you have to pick one, I feel like I would still pick Quimville. Like I don't know, maybe you're biased because of the book he did, but I mean, he was one of the guys that came off the best than that. And I just think that, you know, he never really

gets talked about it with the backhawks of the world as the best coach in the league, but he's right up there for me. I think he might legitimately be number one if I had to pick the best coach in the league. So I don't know. If one of those guys has to go, I'm very curious to see how that plays out. I am too because I'm, if I'm in charge, I'm telling these guys, figure it out, make this work. Right. You know what I mean? Like, because you said if either guy is cut loose, they're employed the next day if they want to be.

Yep. I think, and this is an aside for, again, we're well over an hour here, but there's still four or five GMs on the last year of their contracts are on the league. And like, maybe less now that Benning is done. But there's going to be a lot of, there's going to be some interesting moves. made and some shifting and some musical chairs going on. And so if you're Chicago, man, like those are, those are, Joel Klanwell's a Hall of Fame coach.

Are you, like, how are you upgrading there? Yeah. Yeah, that'd be a tough, tough look for them. All right, let's, let's get out of here. Okay. Plug some stuff. What are you doing these days? Just, I mean, all in on the trade deadline at the athletic, download the app.

If you're a baseball fan too, we just. just hired like six million baseball writers in time for spring training. So if you're not subscribing to the athletics, just check it out. It's, it's every day it gets to be a better deal. I would also plug the full 60. It's my podcast. It's a really, it's an innovative idea. I talked to somebody for an hour. I don't know if anyone else is doing that, Dimitri. I like how you, you parlayed having your face appear on the PDO cast Mount Rushmore to starting up your own show and stealing my guests and, uh. And your logo designer.

Yeah. And you're becoming one of my rivals. And you're coming on my show to rub it in. All of it is grinding my gears. No. It's, they're complimentary podcasts, their brother's sister podcasts,

because I'm trying not to repeat guests. My attempt here is to get hockey fans to know people that they're familiar with in the game or interesting people a little bit better, how they got the job they got. there if you just go back and listen to the full 60 the kind of the archives there I try to make them timeless so you can you can binge listen to them if you want and that like that to me is is whereas demichie has these interesting discussions about what's happening now which I love so I would I would plug that that was a nice little backhanded jab I try not to repeat guests like some other shows I know it's that was not a backhand here my two plugs Craig I recommend people go watch women's hockey the Olympics. Last night's game between the U.S. and Canada was awesome. Awesome.

And I highly recommend checking out more of that. And I recommend go on an iTunes and leaving a positive review for the HockeyPedioCast. And if you can also take a subtle dig of the full 60 while you're at it, I would appreciate that. We're supposed to be complimentary, not arts rivals, Dimitri. I need a rival now that Merrick v. Soszinski's gone. and, you know, I can't take on 31 thoughts. Elliot Friedman's going to destroy me. We're all, like, fighting for second place.

It's true. It's true. All right. Give five stars to Dimitri because this is a, and I can, like, I can say this as someone who has a podcast that's completely different than this one. It really helps those reviews. And people, I don't know if people realize how much it does that and subscribing, because that's what's going to push it up the charts.

So if you like Dimitri, and he's not, this is. a free thing he's doing on his own time to entertain you. If you appreciate that on any level, take the two seconds to subscribe and review it because he benefits greatly for that. That was a beautiful testimony. I appreciate it, Craig. Thanks for taking the time to chat. And I'm sure we'll have you back on sometime down the stretch run here. All right. Thanks, DimitioCast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockeypediocast. Thank you.