The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 225: Money Can't Buy You Saves

Episode Date: March 8, 2018

Andrew Berkshire joins the show to discuss the change of power in Carolina's front office, and where the Hurricanes go from here. We also get into some listeners questions. Topics include: 4:20 The change of direction in Carolina 10:30 The Hurricanes continued goaltending woes 22:38 What can the Hurricanes do to take the next step 32:32 How the success in Vegas will impact Seattle 47:06 Most Valuable vs. Most Outstanding Awards 55:21 Evgeni Malkin's prolific run 1:05:23 Ranking Ekman-Larsson against his peers 1:11:00 What do the Capitals do with John Carlson Sponsoring today's show is Indochino. They're now hooking my listeners up with any premium suit in their catalogue for just $379 (including free shipping). To take advantage of this great offer, just visit their website and enter the promo code PDO when checking out. Also helping make today’s show possible is SeatGeek, which is making it easier than ever before to buy and sell sports and concert tickets. They’re giving our listeners a $20 rebate off of their first purchase. All you have to do is download the free SeatGeek app and enter the promo code PDO to get started. Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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So when you want to hit reset, reach for the beer that's made to chill. Get Coors Light and the new look delivered straight to your door with Drisley or Instacart. Celebrate responsibly. Coors Brewing Company, Golden Colorado. Regressing to the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filipovich. Welcome to the Hockey PEDEOCast. My name is Dimitri Filipovich. And joining me is my good buddy, Andrew Berkshire.

Andrew, what's going on, man? Not much, man. Just really excited to be back on the PDO cast. It's been a bit of a while. Wait, so was your last appearance the one where you infamously had Yara Maria Jaggers a top 20 winger? I may have been. May have been.

That's one of the PDO cast moments that gets brought up most often. I'm not sure how you feel about that in hindsight. Well, I mean, I don't know. Because you look at the way Yager played in Calgary this year and all the injuries that he had, it was about time that age caught up with him. But at the same time, you look at Calgary without Yager and the depth issues that they've had, maybe they didn't make such a great decision there. Yeah, I mean, it certainly didn't look like he had a lot left in the tank,

but based on what has replaced him, it's not like it's, you know, It's not like it wasn't necessarily an addition by the attraction sort of deal either. Yeah, and I wonder also, like, how much of him looking bad is because they were trying to get him to play with, like, Sam Bennett and other dregs in their bottom six. And, you know, Yager needs a little bit of talent around him to work with. And Sam Bennett, I don't know, I think, I'm throwing in the towel on him. Yeah, it's, it's, the Calgary thing's really frustrating. I mean, obviously, you know, last night they beat up on the, on the Buffalo Sabres, which everyone seems to do. do but it's at Toronto yeah but it's it's been frustrating because obviously you can sort of see the

talent you can see the ability and you can see why they could be a really dangerous team come the postseason and their top end of the roster has certainly delivered and they're kind of wasting some really great seasons from their top guys just because they haven't addressed those bottom six concerns and that's you know i was talking about this with tyler delo in our in our post-trade line Recap show and on the one hand like it's it's easy to sort of kind of point and be like oh you know you should be able to just go out and get a third line right winger or whatever but then there weren't like very obvious names to go and get either and guys it seems like guys like mike hoffman for example weren't available or the price was too high so i don't know i guess it's easy to wonder why brad

tree living didn't go out and and make some sort of move to improve this team because the needs are obvious but at the same time i i'm not sure what the obvious fit there would have been so it's just frustrating all the way around yeah i mean i guess it is easy from the sidelines to say well you should have done this or you should have done that but at the same time like how many great years are left with mark giordano you've got to kind of take advantage of that and i don't know it seems like the flames are a little bit hesitant to you know go all in which i kind of get because you know the west is tough and you know they were in and out of the playoffs all season really and Mike Smith's been hurt and there's a bunch of mitigating factors but you know

the core of that team is really good and you got to test them a little bit and show some faith and I feel like the flames you know Chris Stewart is not not enough and you know when you're when you're playing Chris Stewart and Troy Brower every night it's kind of tough to justify letting go your arm or yager even if he spent half his year on injured reserve I like how you tied that back to you have to. Yeah, got it. Yeah, you have to. Top 20 winger.

All right. We're going to talk about the hurricanes here. And thankfully, we got a bit of news, and it's going to give us something to discuss here because when we were preparing for this show yesterday, I wasn't sure what we were going to talk about. It is that weird part of the season here where, you know, after covering the league on a daily basis for the first handful of months,

we're at the point now where I just really can't wait for the first round of the playoffs to start. And obviously there's still some playoff races and jockeying for position. And that'll be interesting in the final couple weeks of the season. But in terms of just like fresh storylines, it seems like we're just rehashing the same stuff over and over again at this point. So the fact that we have this sort of power shifting Carolina to discuss is a bit of a godsend for us. Yeah, absolutely. Apparently Mark Cuban is in the NHL now. You know, that's the model that Tom Dundon is apparently looking at is,

Mark Cuban with the Mavs. So I don't know. This is a weird situation. Most times I see like an owner meddling and I'm like this is a terrible, terrible idea. But at the same time, Carolina's had such a problem taking that next step that maybe it's something good. I don't know. It's really hard to figure out if he's a little bit more aggressive with moves, maybe it makes sense. I feel like Ron Francis has done a pretty good job building, you know, the young core of that team.

but, you know, a few people have mentioned that, you know, he hasn't made a player for player trade in four years as GM. Yeah, yeah, that's right. So, I mean, at the same time, they still acquired like Tuvoteur Vinen, you know, so like there's been some players coming in in trades, but it's not a player for player trade. Yeah, I think that, I think that it sounds like an impressive stat, but that, you know, idea of a player for player good old. fashion hockey trade is yeah uh tends to be overblown by the media um yeah i mean i'm with two minds

of this because obviously you know anyone that's listened to this show or followed us on twitter um is aware of the fact that you know people like you and i have a bit of a soft spot for the hurricanes and the way they're operating and um the staff that they have and sort of how they've gone about their business and you know they've really built something up here and they have a nice little young nucleus and it's easy to get excited about them at the same time though um you know if they don't make a nice little run here in the final couple weeks and make the postseason that's going to be the ninth straight year they haven't made the playoffs and you know you just look at it from without any context and you just look at that in a vacuum and then you look at you know they're like 29th or 30th

in attendance yet again and all like they're just it's the first. The first thing. The first franchise isn't necessarily in a great place. Like sometimes the way we discuss them and the talent they have accrued, you'd think that, you know, they're this juggernaut that's been just tearing through the league and will be a dynasty for years to come. And like you mentioned, we haven't really seen that materialize yet. So I do understand that side of things where if you just look at it on the surface, you'd be like, well, yeah, some change here is probably necessary.

They've kind of stagnated and haven't taken that next step that we've been waiting for them to take over the past few years. like the Winnipeg Jets, for example, who were sort of heading into the year I was trying to decide between the hurricanes and the jets in terms of which team was going to take that next step and obviously being in an opposite conference as it could have been both. But the Jets obviously now are one of the best three or four teams in the league and the hurricanes are at the same position they were in the past few years. So it's pretty frustrating to see.

And obviously a lot of that ties to goaltending, but I guess you can make the argument that that Ron Francis should get ding for that because he had a few. years and a few cracks to try and address that and he still hasn't found a solution and that's why they are where there. Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like, you know, Scott Darling has not been good for the Carolina hurricanes and there's a lot of fingers pointing at goaltending, but I don't think it should be ignored either. They've only scored 178 goals this year.

You know, only one, two, three, four, five teams have scored fewer, you know, including teams having disaster seasons like the Ottawa senators and Montreal Canadians. And then you've got Arizona, Buffalo in there. and the Red Wings as well, who, you know, that's probably the biggest organizational mess in the NHL right now. Yeah, with being terrible ending,

no cap space. I should probably know the answer to this, but, you know, we tend to think of successful hockey as being, you know, defensively oriented and being reliable in your own zone. But, like, what's the last really,

really good successful team that wasn't, at least in, like, the top half or the top half for the top 20 in the league in scoring. Like I can't remember the last team that was like just like so stingy yet so good. That was like bottom five in goals yet still winning game. I can't remember because you even look back at like the trap era New Jersey Devils and like

I think it was like the year they won the cup in 2000. They were like the highest scoring team in the league. It might have been it was that year 2002. So like even the teams that have like the reputation for being defensively like incredible are still top-end offensive teams. I mean, Boston this year, so incredibly, incredibly stingy. You know, it's led to, like, the resurfacing of the Tukaris that everyone knew from four years ago,

and they're, like, top ten in scoring. Like, every team, you can't get it done one way. And I think that the NHL is mostly aware of that. Maybe some coaches aren't, you know, specifically maybe Ghibushé, but uh i mean even when you hear sometimes some of the stuff like mike babcock says um yeah it's a bit it's it's a bit head scratching i think we're in a better place than we were a few years ago but yeah i wonder with babcock like at least with toronto if he's just he's aware that his team is already like they don't need any work offensively right like they've got what they need so he just kind of completely

ignores offense and and lets them you know figure it out themselves and he's just solely focused on defense. I feel like that would make a lot of sense, but yeah, you don't want to end up in a situation where you're just focused on defense all the time. I think, I forget who was talking about it recently, but they were saying that when they played, I think Daniel Breyer did an interview with TVA or RDS, one of the two, and he was talking that Peter LaVuilette was the only coach he ever had who focused on offense in the NHL. Like that was the Craig Custin's podcast, actually. Oh, that's what it was, Craig Custin's. Yeah. friend of the podcast yeah that's right no i you're right about that um with this hurricanes team though

like i was looking and you know in 2013 14 they were as a team 17th in overall safe percentage in 12th of 5 on 5 and since then um the highest they've been is 27th in either category it's in the past four four years and yeah uh you know the goal the goal scoring concerns this year are obviously apparent i think they're also like 30th and safe percentage and shooting percentage or something like that and and that's clearly going to submarine you as well but um you know being a bottom three or four uh team in terms of uh getting saves over the past four years is just impossible to overcome if you don't have that offense and you know i i wonder is it is this as simple as they have just made some poor bets and things haven't worked out or is there something deeper here because

it's it's it's just crazy to me how um the same thing kind of keeps happening here and we just sort of assume well you know the save percentage is really bad the goalies just need to start making saves but is there something else going on here with with bill peters in a system or something funky going on with the with the shot tracking in carolina or like it's it's it's crazy to me that year over year there's new guys coming in and it's still i mean cam war's been there forever but you know eddie lack comes in and just completely falls apart scott darling now comes in and just completely falls apart and it's yeah i just wonder what's going on or if it is as simple as the goal you just need to start making more saves yeah i mean in terms of like shot quality

and the data that i have they're they're fine like there's nothing that sticks out as being like uh you know voodoo going on with uh controlling shot attempts but getting blitzed in like high danger attempts or you know pre-shot movement so it definitely seems like there's more of a goaltending issue than a style issue. I do wonder a little bit, you know, like, I don't have any proof of this because I haven't looked into it, but I kind of get the feeling that when teams are getting really bad goaltending, that they end up playing in a way that won't produce offense because they're worried about the goaltending, you know what I mean?

Like you're less willing to take those offensive risks that pay off in goals because you're worried about the puck coming back the other way and beating your goaltender. I know like it was a big thing in the 90s and early 2000s with the Canadians under Jocelyn Tebow. I remember there was like a lot of rumors around that, you know, the team didn't trust him. And everyone would always deny it on the team. That's not true. That's not true. And then I had the chance to speak with Vincent Domfus a couple years ago for a project I was doing for the John Moulson School of business.

And he was like, oh, yeah, we didn't trust him at all. he's like yeah nobody on the team trusted him like anytime we made a mistake we would all roll our eyes and like not even back check we're like yeah it's in yeah so it's like I wonder if there's a situation like that hurt your offensive confidence because you're so uh not porous defensively but you know you're gonna get scored on even if you make a tiny mistake yeah I definitely would subscribe to that I mean there's certainly a human element to that um yeah and like in terms of evaluating Ron Francis here and decisions he's made like it It's tough to, you know, beat him up too much for it because at the time, at least,

I thought that, you know, giving up a third and a seventh, Freddie Lack was a perfectly reasonable bet. I like his future in this league. I thought that, you know, he was horribly mismanaged in Vancouver during that John Tortorella season, but you could see the talent there. And for that price and then signing him to a two-year deal, I was like, sure, why not? That seems like a type of gamble on a team like this should be making. And similarly with Scott Darling, like, obviously the red flags, or kind of reasons for concern were obvious in terms of sample size and him never having really

been sort of a number one workhorse goalie at any point in his career at any level. But, you know, those types of goalies don't grow entry. So when you get a chance to get a guy who at least has shown that he could be that for you and only giving up a third and then getting to sign him to a four-year deal, I was like, yeah, you know, that seems reasonable. And we'll still see. I mean, it's only been, it's been less than one season so far. It's distinctly possible that next year Scott Darling turns around and looks more like that guy he was in Chicago.

But right now, I mean, yeah, when you're getting a sub-900 say percentage, it's everything is just going to look so much worse. And I understand that if that's going to be your argument for why they needed a change and going to a different direction, then that makes sense. I just wonder whoever comes in to replace Ron Francis, like what they're going to be able to do to remedy that situation and actually find that reliable goaltending option. because it's for now, at least with the cash strap team like the Hurricanes, and we'll see if that changes in the new owner. But it seems like these are sort of the goalies they're going to be running with for the next little while. So I imagine it's going to be really dependent on whether Scott Darling can turn this thing around.

Yeah, I'd imagine that, you know, Darling gets a chance next year to try to figure it out because he'll be kind of tough to move at that salary and that term with the season that he just had. And, you know, this is kind of like, I remember I had an argument with a few people. people recently, I actually, I guess it was about a year ago, talking about like how to figure out like whether or not a goal is ready for the next step. And they were talking about, you know, if a guy like Scott Darling, for example, is like excelling as a backup and it's a good, they were saying it like it's a good indication that they could be a starter. But, you know, I think there's a huge, huge difference between playing, you know, 20 games and playing every night. It's just,

we don't really have much good research on it, but it's just such a different situation. You see even, I think it was Andre Vaskolowski said the other day that he thought that he could be a good goaltender when he was playing, you know, his first 20 games. He's like, okay, I can make it in this league. And then once he's played up to 50 this year, he feels like he's starting to get tired

and he realizes how much of a grind it is and how difficult it is. You know, that doesn't really speak poorly of him because he's had a fantastic season. But it just, I like that honesty, that it is very difficult to, you know, continue to play at a high level every night consistently. And, you know, with Darling as well,

you've got to look at how consistent was he even as a backup. And, you know, there's two different kinds of, like, how am I going to put this? Say that you have two goalies who are both putting up like 925 save percentages. Right. They don't necessarily have the same level of performance, right? One guy could pull like a shutout every four games and then the other four games are really bad. And then the other guy could be, you know, pretty much between like a 920 and 930 every single game.

You know, this is theoretical and nobody's actually this consistent. Right, right. You know, what goal do you want, right? So like Darling had good numbers, but was that because he was great every night or, you know, the Blackhawks were picking his teams? and, you know, Blackhawks were a pretty good defensive team as well. The Hurricanes are a really good defensive team. Like I just looked it up while we were talking there, and they're comparable to the L.A. Kings and Boston Bruins this year

in terms of limiting high-inger scoring chances in pre-shot movement. So there's really nothing to say that they are making the problem for their goaltenders. And I remember I looked into it with the Winnipeg Jets last year as well. you know, looking at Paul Maurice and his history and how he's almost always had bad gold henders and, you know, Hellebuck struggling his first year as a starter. Again, tough to figure it out when you're, when you've got no airbag, I guess, or emergency parachute. But this year, nothing really has changed defensively for the Jets. There's still a top six defensive team. They were last year as well. They don't allow very many chances. And all of a sudden,

Hellebeck has figured it out and he's great. So, you know, maybe Darling will too, but I don't think that for those two teams, it's an issue defensively. It's definitely either a mental issue for the goaltenders or a skill issue. Right. And obviously, I guess the concerning part for the hurricanes would be that Scott Darling's already 29 years old, like obviously. Yeah, not a prospect.

Yeah. I mean, I guess, you know, he's because of all his personal stuff and he's taken a very, a unique career path and he hasn't played that much hockey so if you want to make the argument that you know we value him differently in terms of that agent career that that's entirely possible but yeah it's you know with with a conor helleboic it's like or you know vasselowski's going through some growing pains this year it's like well you know if you're in your early 20s i buy that argument much more than if you're already a fully four man in your late 20s and and and you know that's a really good point you make there about the grind of the season and the position because you know we see this

with every player, but if you're a forward and you go through a four-game pointless streak or something, it's much different than if you're a goalie who's giving up five goals a game for four or five straight games. Like, it's going to become much more evident and much more apparent and we're going to pick it apart. And you're seeing that a bit with Freddie Anderson in Toronto right now where he was remarkable for a long stretch of the season and he was really their most valuable player. And then now he's gone through a bit of a rough patch.

and I think it's fair to wonder why he's on pace to lead the league in appearances this season when the Leafs have had their spot basically locked up all year. It seems like they should kind of tone that down a little bit, especially since they do have some decent options in the AHL to eat up some starts. But, you know, if you have that bad stretch as a goalie, it's going to be very obvious very quickly, and we're going to call you out on it. So I can imagine that both mental and physical toll of the,

regular season would be just overwhelming at times, especially if you've never experienced it before. Yeah, and plus, you know, as a former goalie, goalies are kind of weird and you're on an island in a lot of ways. And I think it was like Kerry Price a few years ago was talking about like the loneliness of the position. And like in a way, the goalie is not part of the team. If you know what I'm saying.

Like they aren't out there playing with the other guys. They're like the last line of defense after everything else. has failed. So they're not like, they're not seen as the same way as skaters are, right? Like they're just, they're just there. They're part of the team,

but they're not. They're in a separate area. It's kind of like the coach, right? Like, you get treated differently and, you know, there's less of a support structure than there is for players. You know,

it's only in the last five to eight years, really, that NHL teams have brought on like full-time goalie coaches for the most part. You know, there's been guys, like Ralea Moulanson and, and I'm blanking on the name now, but the guy who trained, Francoisle-Layer, who've been around forever,

but for the most part, like every NHL team hasn't been outfitted with goalie coaches, especially down to the American hockey league, ever, you know, until recently. You know, the Colorado Avalanche didn't have a goalie coach when Peter Boudai came to Montreal when he left the Colorado Avalanche. I thought that was insane, but he'd never had one, you know, as a professional. And then, you know, that's just crazy, you know, it's just such a different position. And, you know, we're starting to get better data on goaltenders now, but it's such a mental position. And it's tough.

It's, you're just on your own, you know. It's, I guess your best friends, your backup, and that's about it. Yeah. Yeah, no, I can imagine. And, yeah, there's nowhere to hide if you're not doing well. Exactly. It's going to be tough. Even the stingiest defense in front of you is going to be tough.

have to prop you up. So, I mean, with this, you know, I guess let's put a ball on this, on this hurricanes conversation, you know, whoever comes in and takes this job now, I'll be interested to see, you know, how much autonomy they have or whether the meddling from the ownership continues and how that's going to impact things and whether, you know, this new owner who has deeper pockets presumably will allow the hurricanes to actually spend some more money for once and maybe that opens things up. But I don't know, like, is there anything that they could do this summer that would inspire confidence that next year will finally be the year this is going to happen?

Or do you think you're going to feel that way anyways? Like, I, it's so tough. I don't, I mean, it's been like three years or four years now where it's like in the summer. Just talking them up, like, yo, this is the year we got to watch out for the hurricanes. and I guess, you know, if you stay patient and true to form, you will get hopefully eventually what happened with the Jets this year and you'll look smart and you'll be all in on them and you'll feel happy about it. But it's, I don't know, like, I like what's in place. But to push you over the top, I wonder if something else needs to happen here and what that would be. I mean, obviously they have a lot of intriguing pieces on the blue line that would presumably garner a lot of interest if they were available.

and maybe Justin Falk is the most obvious name there. And I don't know if you can get creative there and maybe add some more firepower up front or whether they already have enough there. If you were taking over this job, is there anything you would do or would you just kind of stick with the current path they're on because you like what they're doing?

I mean, I didn't like you. I like what they're doing. But, you know, I think from my perspective, the fix is easier than most teams because I think they have most. most of the important spots filled up. I think their main issue is depth at the forward position. I can't say for certain that they still are because I haven't watched Carolina and I'd say probably a month now.

But for a long time they were still rolling out Jay McCleman in their bottom six. And we've known since he was in Toronto that that was not a smart idea. So I think they've just got to either promote from within to fill out their bottom six. a little bit and they obviously need another high-end score. I think they've got some really good guys who are, you know, getting there now. Sebastian O'Haw is even better than I thought he was going to be. Ter Vinen is breaking out, which, you know, everybody's like, finally, you know, the talent was there and we've all been waiting for it and here it is finally.

But I do think they need either a scoring winner or a scoring center. It doesn't necessarily need to be a young guy. you know a guy who's available like max petrelli right that would be a great fit for them uh in terms of like moving one of their defensemen i know justin falk is a popular one because he's uh on a contract that expires i think in two years but i would explore noah hanifin uh i think that he's had a great year this year but he's a little bit overrated around the league and i think he's the guy that you would be able to trade for more than he's actually worth get back you know more than what Haneffin brings.

Justin Falk, I think, is actually pretty underrated around the league. He has some, you know, issues in gap control and positioning, but he's really good. I mean, it would probably also help to have, you know, an extra offensive weapon to just release Jeff Skinner a little bit more, you know. Skinner is such a scoring chance producer and, you know, a shot quality guy. He's always in the front of the net and getting to the right spots. but he can't really do it on his own and he's kind of had to for a really long time. So I think bringing in a guy who can, you know, have an extra threat for teams to cover,

it just makes such a big difference. Hey, you're talking about an all-star Noah Hannafan, okay? No, I agree with that. You know, he's an RFA this summer and he's had a nice little breakout season here, finally kind of coming up and keeping up with what, uh we're you know his peers in wrenski and pro vrover doing around the league and i think his stock is obviously very high based on the draft pedigree and the name so if you could it's it's tough because we get into this a lot where it's like oh you know you have too many too many good young

defensemen you should flip one of them for a good four it's like well you know you can there's different ways to build your team and you could probably get creative and find some interesting forward options without necessarily having to just give away one of those defensemen but i guess if you do have to move one, he seems like the one in terms of just opportunity costs that would make the most sense. And I wonder, I mean, if you all of a sudden put him into the discussion,

you could, the forward you'd be getting back could be a pretty sort of big name, fascinating guy, whether it was an already entrenched star, whether it was sort of a similar guy in terms of his respective career in terms of being on the way up still. So, yeah, they have the pieces here to get creative

and they don't have, you know, too many restrictive contracts or bad money on the books. So whoever's coming in, it's like it's a pretty appealing job, assuming that the owner is going to let you do your thing and actually spend some money. But I guess, you know, based on the way they've operated and what we've seen so far from this owner, maybe that isn't necessarily a given either. So I'm curious to see who that name is going to be that's going to replace Ron Francis and how it's going to go over the next few years. Yeah, it seems like, you know, they might not have a given. Tommy, but it kind of sounds like he's willing to spend more money than the last owner. It's hard to kind of get a read on it because I feel like with, you know,

Uber rich people, you can't necessarily trust what they're talking about. Yes. Yeah. And yeah, no, that's that's a good way to put it. Okay, let's take a break here to hear from sponsors and we will answer some, some Twitter questions that we've solicited from our, from our listeners on either and the things. We've got some exciting news to share.

and that is that the PDO cast is a new sponsor and that sponsor is Indochino. And the reason I'm particularly excited about that is because I just so happen to be a big fan of their product and would like to spread the word to you. If you ever see me on TV or any pictures wearing a suit, it's a good chance that it was one of their products. And the thing about Ennochino beyond, you know, just the quality of their product and how good their suits feel and how well they hold up is sort of the personalization component of it. You know, just the other day as part of this campaign, I was there to, you know, go through a

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Just download the C-Kee-K app and enter into the promo code PDO. That's promo code P-DO for $20 off your first C-Kkekekech purchase. Now let's get back to Andrew Berkshire. All right, Andrew. Let's get into it here. We got some good questions. Time to get grilled here. you've you've taken a look at some of these right

yep yep all right um is there anything that's stuck out to you I mean there's there's some good stuff in here we can get into um all right let's talk a bit about George McPhee and Vegas and Seattle and the expansion process and all that

I got into it a bit a few shows ago with with Chris Johnston and you know I sort of raised a question to him about you know how Vegas is success this year first off, how that's being received around the league in terms of, I imagine if, you know, you were an owner of another team and you saw this was happening and maybe you, your team's been rebuilding for a few years, you're all of a sudden wondering why this is happening and whether it's, you know, kind of a red mark against your team and the rest of the league and how it's operating if a team can just come in and do this. And then sort of the follow-up is how

this is going to affect Seattle because, you know, we've heard that they're going to have similar if not the exact same rules in terms of which players are going to be available to them and who other teams can protect and all that. But I wonder if teams are going to start actually getting ahead of this thing and maybe preparing more so in advance the teams were before and whether they're going to get scared off or whether just how things are going to change. I'm really curious about that because obviously Vegas has been a great story this year and they've been successful and, you know, they've exceeded everyone's expectations, including my own. and I think they're very legit for the most part, but it's funny because when you look at it, I still don't think they necessarily did the best job possible or they optimized things by any means.

It just has all seemingly worked out for them. Yeah, and it's weird because, like, is Seattle going to get to pick one of Vegas's players? Like, are they open to the expansion draft already? That's a good question. They have to be, right? Yeah, I think so. They're part of the part of the league.

they better protect William Carlson, I guess. Man, it, every, like, everything, and it's, it's both, it's a great story, but it's also frustrating because there was zero hint whatsoever that he could do anything close to this. Right. So, yeah, and that's sort of the balance that, uh, you know, we try to strike in, in this industry where being surprised is a part of the deal. And obviously, you know, like, like, stories like this are awesome. And it'd be boring if we just knew everything that was going to happen and it was all very predictable. But at the same time, I do like to have some sort of explanation or I think to point to and go like, oh, well, you know, this makes sense. We can sort of learn from this moving forward.

And I don't think that what's going on here. Like, Eric Halle has 24 goals this season. Yeah, what? And it's like all these guys, like whoever gets into that lineup, I mean, like Ryan Carpenter is just coming in and scoring goals. Like everyone that plays for them seems to just get this magic touch. And I don't know if there's anything to glean from that moving forward beyond. This is just one of those years. And next year, it's not going to go as smoothly.

And, you know, we should prepare for that or just enjoying this ride and not trying to make too much of it. Like I just, I'm having a weird time sort of wrapping my head around everything that's happening in Vegas. Yeah, it's super weird. and it's especially weird because you look at like team-wide, the underlines on Vegas are good. You know, like this isn't a mirage, but at the same time, almost every single player on that team is having a career year.

So as much as what's going on right now isn't a mirage, and they are legitimately one of the best teams in the league, they probably won't be next year. You know, like I feel like that's also an easy bet to make, especially for people who didn't expect them to be good in the first place. He'll be like, oh, yes, well, I don't think they're going to be good next year, though. Just smash the under on every single player. Yeah, exactly.

But, you know, not everybody can have a career year every year. I think, you know, there are some guys like Marsha, so who are going to be fine. And he might take a light step down next year, but I don't think that he's going to all of a sudden not be a top line player anymore. He'll be good. I don't expect William Carlson to shoot 26% again, you know, like that's. That's crazy. And they've got a lot of players who are doing stuff like that. But I don't know.

This is such an odd team because you see some of the stuff they've done. And I feel like Gerard Galang is actually a really good offensive coach. He's proven that he's pretty good defensively too. Vegas is pretty stingy. But guys like David Perron, I don't know if you read the interview that Shang Pang did with him, I guess it was close to three weeks ago or so. Yeah, it was about like player tracking and stuff, right? Yeah, the player tracking and also how like they kind of changed.

his style this year to be more of a playmaker instead of a shooter. Like he has a career low shot numbers, but he's having a career year offensively because he's just making passes all the time. And, you know, you look into the Sport Logic data as well, and you can see, like, his passing is incredible this year. And it might have been as simple as, you know, somebody in that organization looked at Peron's last couple years and they realized that maybe he wasn't as great of a shooter as he was early in his career, but he's still a great passer.

So let's lean heavily on what you're good at, put you with players who can shoot, and all of a sudden, you know, great year. So it could just be smart moves like that where they've got players in the right slot, but even then you've got guys who are just doing too well to be expected to continue next year. But yeah, Seattle is Seattle's exciting because, you know, if they have an even better draft than Vegas, I find it super interesting how quickly this is turnaround. And you were touched on, you know, other teams being confused about how quickly this has happened. I think that's great because if Vegas, you know, my, my dream scenario this year for Vegas to win the Stanley Cup because it basically proves that like nobody in the NHL knows what they're doing and it's all random.

Yes, we're team chaos. Exactly. Yeah. The thing with Vegas is, it seems sort of stupid to say because especially if, you know, next year they come back down Earth or just a middling team, which we would still be the smart bet at this point, that they've sort of figured out something that no one else has. But when you watch them, there is a certain element to, like, it passes the sniff test when you watch just watch them play in terms of just the speed they play with. and I think they're yeah they're just optimizing the the personnel they have in terms of the positions they're in and how they're attacking other teams now whether you know we are 65 or almost 70 games into the season now so you'd think the teams would have kind of recalibrated and adjusted and maybe

in the playoffs when they have a chance to just sit down and just focus on the one opponent and not deal with the grind of the regular season maybe that'll be exposed a little bit and teams will be able to game plan and defend better but yeah they're just like they're still catching teams off guard with both their speed and their ability to just get the puck in these high leverage situations and it's just, it's fun to watch

with Seattle obviously we'll see who runs it and how the process goes but like there's reason to believe that they should be able to build a similarly good team, right? Like I still don't think that Vegas

did a great job here. There's at least I'd say seven or eight situations where I think they just flat out pick the wrong player. And then there's obviously some they leverage. And if they really wanted to get more cup throat, there's a bunch of instances where they could have probably drawn out even more values. So there's a lot of stuff here that there's a lot of goal to be mined.

And we'll see if Seattle has the infrastructure and the brain power to pull that off and whether they're willing to do so. But there's reason to be excited. And obviously, the success of Vegas here shouldn't be expected for Seattle. but it shows that it won't necessarily also be one of those typical expansion processes from the past where it's like five or six years before they even have a good player. Yeah. And I feel like one of the other things to look at with Vegas is like how much dead weight they have in terms of salary. You know, like this, I know some of it's picked up by insurance, but, you know, Mikhail Grabrovsky, David Clarkson, you know, Jason Garrison, all making huge deals or a huge money and not playing.

They also picked up over a million dollars on Alexi Emelon's contract for him to go to Nashville, two million on Derek Broussard's contract. So they've got like money to throw around on this organization, which is not necessarily what was expected for an expansion franchise. So like their actual salary that they're paying out this year is like eight million more than their cap hit, which is crazy. So I don't know if Seattle will be able to do that. I guess it depends on how rich their,

ownership group is and I haven't looked into them based on the fee they're paying I imagine they will not be too short on cash yeah that yeah that makes sense but yeah I mean I agree with you that I don't think they did a particularly amazing job at the draft they accumulated a lot of picks but you know I don't think they went as young as I expected them to and I don't think they they went as you know talent wise as I expected them to and you know they picked a lot of defensemen I think that kind of backfired on them too they didn't get a lot for yeah those defense while they traded for so i mean you mentioned you mentioned the alexia emil and like the fact that they took him i imagine they just misread the market and they thought that maybe the demand for him would be higher because

why you would take whatever what do they get like a third or fourth rounder for him from national like why would you yeah that over charles hoodon who was available there to be taken like there was stuff like that where i was like i think this is just a mismanagement of assets but obviously um it hasn't mattered and it's hard to quibble with the results so far. So I guess the takeaway here is to just, yeah, none of us know anything and just enjoy the ride. Yeah. And it's even if you are confused by it or don't like what Vegas did, like it's super fun. I'm really excited to see what kind of people that St. Louis, or not St. Louis, Seattle brings into the organization.

I wonder, like, there was one of the questions that was in that thread that you posted that asked, like, how smart is George McPhee? and like was this you know him being a genius or is there like something else going on here and you know like i think george mcfrey is probably a smarter than average general manager even with the forsburg for you're at trade right and it's unfair to expect any general manager to have no mistakes yeah but when you look at like the moves that he's made in Vegas there are some good ones uh i really like the thomas tatr trade even though they gave up a lot of futures for him because i think he's a really underrated really good player in his prime and signed to a good deal. But, you know, the Shippachov thing still kind of stinks to me to give that much money to a player

and then decide after like two games that he's not good. So either their pro scouting was terrible and they just bought on a guy who, you know, other teams were excited about so they just had to have him and then immediately change their mind. Or, you know, maybe they made a miscalculation there and, you know, You know, like you look at his actual, like, he didn't play very much. But so, like, the sample size is tiny. But his underlines were really strong. So, like, the way that they came out and said that he was, like, the worst center on the team was definitely not true.

Well, and I'm really fascinated. You know, that does seem like that entire saga seems like another lifetime ago at this point. It does, yeah. But, you know, the other kind of interesting wrinkle to that is one of my favorite. I mean, I guess he's already 25 years old, so he's not necessarily a prospect. but one of my favorite international pieces that's not in the NHL right now that could be the next few years is Nikita Gusev

and he's having another awesome season in the KHL and you know he was a Tampa Bay Tampa Bay pick that they got in the expansion process and I imagine that how that entire Shepishav process went would not necessarily make Gusev super excited to come play for Vegas

so I'm very fascinated to see how that unfolds and whether it comes to the league, whether he'll be, it'll all be smooth sailing and whether he'll come to Vegas or whether he'll ask to go somewhere else. So that's going to be another fun thing to watch. But yeah, no, that's crazy that that was this season. It really does feel like another lifetime ago. Yeah, absolutely.

And to pivot slightly. Have you seen the thread going around about what's happening in the KHL right now with the SKA? I have. Can we not talk about the person who is perpetuating? Yes. I think we can completely ignore him because, It was actually reported by raw charge like a week ago.

So we can completely ignore the jerk who threaded it today who's getting all the attention. Yes. Yeah. I don't know. What do you want to say about that? I don't know. I guess if people haven't heard about it, it's crazy. You know, like the KHL is essentially rigging the playoffs for Putin's team.

You know, I've long been of the opinion that the KHL is not necessarily a viable league. and that's, you know, out there with the financials, but it's like full on a propaganda league right now. It's just Russia's weird, man. Yeah, well, I mean, without even, you know, doing any digging or really getting into the stuff behind the scenes, I mean, if you just look at the rosters, it's pretty skewed in the direction of the one team.

So. And it has been for a long time. Yes. Yeah. And, yeah, some of their numbers are, are pretty funny to look at it. I mean, especially last year, I remember I was looking at how SKA was doing in terms with the goal differential and their win-loss record.

It's like, oh, okay. They're just beating everyone by like eight goals. Cool. Yeah, it's like, it's a totally different world in a way. You know, as much as like, I kind of think the NHL has gone too far towards like parody. The KHL has gone too far towards like trying to be basketball. But it's just, you know, Putin's play thing more than. you know, developing a super team or anything like that.

Right. Yeah, there's a middle ground there to be had. And that's where Shippachov ended up. I didn't realize that. Of course he did. Yep. Okay, next question here. Oh, so this is good because I know that you wrote recently about Taylor Hall and the MVP race. So someone asks, do you subscribe to the rule that your team must be in the playoffs in order to be a hard trophy candidate?

I don't. I understand why people do. Right. But for me, the team can't be like the worst team in the league, right? Like you can't be the Arizona Coyotes or the Buffalo Sabres. But if you're a team that isn't supposed to be good and you've almost made the playoffs because of the contributions of one player, say like Jerome McGillan in 2002. Yeah. Or it was 2002?

It was one of those years. I think so. One of those years. Anyway, but yeah. That kind of situation, I have no problem giving the hard trophy to a player outside of the playoffs. Yeah, I would agree with that because, and I think we just need, we just need to go and just change it to the most outstanding player. And I understand that the Ted Lindsay is kind of supposed to be that, but like literally supposed to be. I know, but then what's the point of the heart?

Like, it's most valuable. But how, there's no, there's no definition for that. it's so subjective and well I mean all the awards are subjective really no I know but it's like okay so in this case for example um like I agree with you

I understand the argument that it's like if you're one of the worst teams in the league and a player is just having an insane season on that team it's like all right well without them I guess they'd be there wouldn't be the 27 team they'd be the 29th team like oh a big difference but you know it's like

Connor McDavid has probably been the most valuable player this year, no? Like, the Oilers might be the worst team in NHL history without him. Like, they're so bad. They're so bad. And it's, it's mind-blowing that they're not going to make the playoffs with him on their team, making less than a million dollars and just how good he is.

And, you know, still what, they're 27th in the league right now. So it's like, without him. Yeah, they're 17 points out of ninth. Yeah. So it's like without him, I guess, yeah. they'd be the worst team in the league. There's not that much of a difference between that right now. So it's really tough to make the argument that he should win in the heart,

even though he probably is the most valuable player. In the case of, and the reason we bring this up, obviously, is because I imagine of, it seems like it's shaping up to be McKinnon versus Taylor Hall right now, and both teams are conceivably playoff teams. At worst, they're on the bubble. So I think those teams are definitely good at, enough, whether they make the playoffs or not, for me to feel comfortable saying that those guys should be in consideration for the heart.

So I guess, you know, that I imagine that was the point of this question. And I don't know, where do you lean right now in that, in that debate? Because I guess there's no, I think it's pretty clearly one of those two guys at this point. And I think both are very, very fine candidates. Yeah. I mean, I guess it also, it's a twofold question, right? because, like, would you be okay with the Lindsay going to a player who was on a team that didn't make the playoffs? You know, most outstanding player.

Because, like, theoretically, you know, you could say that because the Oilers are nowhere close to the playoffs, McDavid, despite having an amazing season, has not been the most valuable player to their team. You know, the worst that could happen to them is they go down a couple of spots in the standings. But is McDavid the most outstanding player in the league this year? year up there with Nikita Kutrov, I would say yeah. Yeah. So like, would it be unfathomable? I mean, it wouldn't be up to us or any writers anyway because that's voted on by the players,

but would it be unfathomable for, unfathomable for Connor McDavid to win the Lindsay, even though the Oilers are terrible? No, it wouldn't. I mean, he has been the most outstanding player in the league this year. And you're going to get a lot of lightning fans mad now. Oh, Kucherov's amazing. That's the silly part about this whole most valuable... That only one guy can win?

Well, I guess it is the most valuable. It's not the super valuable award. But, yeah, it's like Kutrov could have won the most valuable award last year and his team didn't make the playoffs. And this year, it's like they're too good and there's too many pieces around him. So he's not the most valuable. even though he's obviously having an outrageously good season and probably finish leading the league in points

and he'd be a fine enough candidate as well but yeah I mean when you look at the respective teams especially I mean well McKinnon's having a run earlier too but with the devils it's like the fact that they're in a playoff spot I mean and what Taylor Hall has done the past 26 games he's just single-handedly dragging that team and it seems like when you just watch them every single time they're creating even a scoring champion

let alone a goal. It's, he is responsible for it in some capacity, whether it's just taking the puck into the zone or whether it's actually shooting the puck on that or passing into a teammate and attracting a lot of attention. So, I mean, he has been just otherworldly, but then, you know, you look at some,

the league's in a good place with the individual talent right now. I mean, there's a bunch of guys that are just putting up video game numbers on like we've seen the past few years. So it's a good spot to be in for the league as a whole. Yeah, absolutely. I would say there's one guy, or actually two guys, that I would add to that Hart Trophy conversation for various reasons. One, I'm shocked that nobody's talking about is Ovechkin.

You know, again, he's going to push 50 goals another year older, and the caps aren't the offensive juggernaut that, you know, we're used to. He's like 10 points up on the next best cap. I feel like he deserves a lot more credit than he's getting right now. I think he's had a better season than the last couple years. He's been, you know, he's Ovi. You know, he's still that unstoppable force offensively that runs the capitals. And, you know, he's been pushed by Baxterman Kuznetsoff the last couple of years

in terms of being like the single offensive force on the capitals. But this year it's back to him all over again. And the other is Anzi Kopitar, who is right there in the Selke conversation again this year. And the next best player offensively on the Kings is Dustin Brown. Yep. You know, who's like 26 points back of Kopitar. It's the second biggest gap in first and second in points on a team this year after Taylor Hall. So I feel like it's really shocking that nobody's talking about Kopitar with, you know,

the Kings are currently in a wild card spot. They don't have much offense. They're not as good defensively as they're. were under Sutter and you know quick's been okay but you know copatar has been dragging that team into the playoffs all season long he's been absolutely incredible after you know a bit of a disaster season last year that wasn't really his fault so i i'm surprised that nobody's brought him up he's you know he's got 71 points 14th in league in scoring taylor hall's 10th of 74 i feel like there's more credit that needs to go to Anzi Kopitar.

I agree with that, and he was one of those guys, I mean, everything that could have gone wrong seemed to go wrong last year in L.A., but he was especially one of those guys that, I believe he, I forget who, whether it was, whether it was Yost or Delo that wrote about this, but I think he, like, led the league in the number of times he hit the post last year or something, and his shooting percentage was ridiculously low, and that doesn't even take into account those posts, and he's bounced back to form this year, and it's really good to see it is obviously he's a tremendous player. A name I thought you were going to mention there,

and I guess you know, you can't really give him the award for most valuable because of the other pieces around him, but he warrants some discussion here in terms of the most outstanding season, I guess, is what have Genie Malken has done this year? This is true. This is true. You know, there's been a lot of talk, and you and I have perpetuated that in the past 10 minutes here. um about you know how this the run taylor hall is on with his 2016 point streak and what mckinan

has done especially since coming back from injury and you know they've been ridiculous it seems like they're putting up a couple points every single night um walkin is similarly on just uh a preposterous streak the past like 30 games or so um yeah it's like almost like a goal a game calendar turn, 2018. Yeah, he's, I'm looking right now. So, yeah, since January 1st, the penguins have played 28 games, and he has 24 goals during that time. Oh, my God.

With 48 points. I love all this entire season, everyone's been like, oh, the penguins have been super unlucky, you know, like their PDO is really bad, really, really low on-eye shooting percentage, and I've been even if he's just like, I'll regress the team on my own. I'm going to shoot 33.3%. Yeah. But, you know, you just, he's so freaking good, man. Oh, man.

He's so underrated, too. Yeah. And, you know, I was talking about this yesterday on Twitter, and I understand that the knocks against him, you know, this year he's been pretty healthy, but for the most part, he's good for missing, like, 20, 25 games a year. And when you're talking about the best players in the world, I need them to be in the light up more than that.

And he's pretty undisciplined when it comes to taking sloppy penalties and he's always in the box. But man, when he, I've long said this, but I think his like A plus game is as good as I've ever seen in my life. And obviously I've only really been watching hockey for the past like 15 to 20 years or so. So don't get at me with all the Gretzke-Lamew stuff. But just in terms of like this generation of guys, I mean, his ability to dominate a game.

And it seems like every time he hops over the boards when he's feeling it, he's just an unstoppable force with that combination of just reach. just reach and power and no one when he any malcon drops the shoulder yeah it's like it's it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's not getting the puck from him and it's it's frightening and you know he has on that power play this year with with phil kessel they've they've had some sweet magic together and yeah he's it's it's kind of going quietly and a lot of it's coming on the power play but man the the the past since the calendar turned to 2018 as you said he has been as good as anyone in the league and the panes

wins have been as hot as anyone in the league so yeah you put those two together and he should at least be in this discussion if not one of the front runners yeah he he should absolutely be up there with the with mac david and kutrov for the lindsay uh like you said the most valuable is a little bit tougher because he's still you know playing with kessel and crosbie on the power play and letang so it's tougher to give him as much credit as a guy like mc david or hall or or uh copatar where, you know, they're a singular focus that teams can get on. And McKinnon as well, obviously. McKinnon's another one, like we were talking about,

like the avalanche don't necessarily need to make the playoffs for him to make an obvious impact, right? So it's tough, but that's why I think, like, every year is almost always the same three nominees for the Lindsay and the heart. And I feel like if you're going to do that, it's super boring and you don't need two awards, even if there's two different sets of voters voting on it. I think we need a better distinction between those two awards.

And if there's, like, one player that overlaps, I get it. But outside of that, it should be, like, two different sets of players. Because you should be looking at two different things. It'd be the same as, you know, if they made a best defensive defenseman award and a best offensive defenseman award, there should be, like, one or two overlaps. But, you know, you want to see a little bit different. If it's the same three names, then you don't need two awards, which I think is kind of the argument with, you know, the Norris right now is that, like, for the most part, the guys who produce the most offense are often also the best defensive players.

So it's either award the awards the way they're written down or cut down the number of awards. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fair. Okay, we have time for one or two more questions here. All right, here's a good one. Okay, I lied. I lost it. Hold on a second. Okay, here we go. Here we go. Here we go. Okay, if you're trying to get a quick view on the effectiveness of a player, what are you looking at in terms of the first stuff?

I mean, obviously, you know, the answer here is you need to look at everything and take it all into consideration. But in terms of like if you know, you don't have the time to do a deep dive on every single player and you're just trying to see if, you know, he sticks out to you. Maybe you're watching a team and a certain player looks good. And then you want to quickly just look at the numbers and see whether it's actually adding up and whether he's as good as you think. What are you, what are you looking at beyond just obviously goals and points? Personally, I look at plus minus. Yeah, or goals against average, even for forwards. I mean, you know, you got to check.

wins and losses. Yeah. You know? No, I usually, the first thing I look at is still coursey, usually relative to team. And then I try to look if, you know, there's much of a gap between that and their goals over a couple of years sample.

I like to use a three-year sample. I think that's just, you know, what, I don't know if that's necessarily the best sample or if that's just, you know, when I was coming up in the hockey analytics thing, that's just like the one that everybody used was three years. But that's always what I've done is three years. points per 60 if they're forward

for defensemen I don't look at points as much especially per 60 because often you end up with like third pairing guys getting a lot of those so you know it's it's tough to look at only a couple statistics because you're never going to get a full picture

but I guess that's not what the question is yeah it's not the question how about just like the awards we award what they actually say and how about these questions we answer what the question says Andrew Okay, fine, fine. Okay, here's one for you, Demetri, because I'm interested to see what you say.

Yeah, let's go for it. From floppy cakes, if you have the first pick in the 2010 draft with the benefit of hindsight, Taylor or Tyler. Well, floppy cakes. I would say you couldn't go wrong with either guy, and if you had them on your team, you'd be crazy to trade one of them, let alone both of them. Especially if you were the same person. Yes. Yeah, that's a good one.

I think Taylor Hall is the better player. I don't know, it seems weird to say. I feel like Tyler Sagan has been a bit more reliable throughout his career, I guess in terms of health at least, although Hall's been pretty healthy the past couple years. Yeah, I think Taylor Hall is a more impactful player, but we should say that Tyler Sagan himself, and obviously he gets to play with Ben and Radulov quite a,

a bit so that's a pretty nice spot for him to be in but he's quietly going to score like 45 goals this year um yeah he's uh he's still sick and he's had a nice bounce back season last year he was injured quite a bit and i remember reading a story how i think he missed a lot of like camp or something like that or he was banged up to start the year and never really got into form and i think sometimes that's something we need to account for it i imagine you know getting off on the right foot is is pretty valuable for a lot of guys in terms of finding the rhythm and this year he has been firing on all cylinders and it's been cool to see so he's been really really good himself but i guess i would slightly still lean towards taylor hall i think they got it right but you you can't go

wrong with either guy yeah i'm i'm slightly biased towards the center position but you know most of that is because you know you want a great two-way center but for me second isn't necessarily a great two-way center he's like all-out offense yeah whereas hall is a phenomenal two-way forward so that kind of Makes me lean towards Hall. So I would say like if you're building a team, you're probably better off with Hall. But I feel like a Tyler Sagin has more trade value. Does that make sense? But really, if you're picking first overall in 2010, the answer is super obvious.

It's Eric Goodbranson. What kind of, what kind of, I'm going to leave that one there. What kind of, what kind of defensemen? Not even addressing it. What kind of defenseman could you expect to get back in a one-for-one trade for Tyler Sagan if you think he has more value? Ooh, I mean, probably even as good as Sammy Vatinan.

Yeah, I was going to say, do you think you could get a guy who could at least be one of your three best defensemen on a really good team? Yeah, I would say so. I would say theoretically you could. Yes. Yeah, I mean, Joe Morrow, technically. No? Joe Morrow. Wasn't he part of the Sagan trade?

Yeah, he was. He was with Riley Smith, right? Yep. And Erickson, Louis-Earson. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of those guys are still in Boston, I think. Okay, here's a good one. And this sort of ties into what you were saying in terms of evaluating players

and looking at like relative stats and how that's important. And, you know, you and I did rank the defensemen at the start of the year. But PA devil asks, where would you rank Oliver Ekman-Larsen in terms of defensemen? Yeah, this was an interesting one because I feel like, where you and I would rank him. I don't know if we'll be on the same page here, but I think where we would rank him and where, like,

the 200 hockey men would rank him is very different. I have him between 21 and 30. Yeah, I was going to say, like, in those, like, high, I guess low, I always mix us up, but in the teens, I'd say, like, in that, like, 17, 18 range, but, yeah, if you want to tell me he was, like, the 23rd best defenseman,

I think that's reasonable. I don't, I haven't made a little. list, an updated list of my top, but however many defensemen. So it's kind of just eyeballing it here. But yeah, I'd say like the 20 mark is a reasonable. I said, why? Do you think people are higher on him than that? Yeah, I think so. I think if you ask like the average hockey person, oh, Ekman Larson is considered like a top 10-ish defensemen in the NHL. And I think part of that is like the team Sweden factor. Right. You know, he's considered less than Carlson or headman, but he's like the next guy on the list when he probably should be

below guys like Hampus Land Home and, you know, a few others. Yeah. I mean, yeah, and yeah, I guess, you know, he's obviously super talented and a very smooth, smooth player. So I can see why you could talk yourself into that. And, you know, it's quite possible in a better situation playing with better players. He'd really thrive more. And maybe we'll see that in the next couple years in a different a location. So yeah. Yeah, and I think it's also worthwhile to point out that like for defensemen, the gap between like 15 to 30 is not very large, in my opinion.

So, you know, you can kind of slide him anywhere in that area and I'd be like, yeah, okay, I'll give it to you. Yeah. I wouldn't argue it. It wouldn't be worth the time. Yeah. I think that's a good point to make. Okay, one final thing here.

Captain Cabby asks, do you? do the capitals need to overhaul he says their defense but i would let's just say do the capitals need to overhaul their entire team in the summer i think they really could use a guy like nake schmidt yeah is that too mean here's the here's the thing um brain holby has been really bad lately yes he has i don't know like is this just like a weird year for goalies though like yeah well which year is not i'm weird year for goalies. Okay, that's partially true.

But if you look at, you know how Chris Tierney, or not Chris Tierney, Sean Tierney. Chris Tierney of the San Jose Sharks. Yes, you know, same guy, actually. But he always posts those like goals saved above average charts. And, you know, this year, like the bottom, like eight goalies are legitimately good goalies.

And that's usually not the case. Usually there's like, you know, one or two. guys have off years, but you've got like, Carrie Price has been terrible this year. Brayden Holby's been terrible. Henrik Lunkfis has been below average for the first time in his career. You know, Cam Talbot has been terrible. Like, these are all guys that not just in terms of analytics, but like I test as well, they're good, efficient, smart goaltenders who, you know, are always in shape. That's not the problem. Yeah. It's such an odd year. And like I, I, I, I can't figure out what's changed in the NHL.

I don't think much has outside of like there's a bit more skill every year with the young kids coming in and, you know, save percentages down. So that's good. But man, there's a lot of really good goaltenders having bad years. So I feel like there's a bit of panic surrounding Brayden Holpey, but I wouldn't buy it yet. No, I wouldn't either. I bet on the track record here for sure. The reason why I brought that up, I guess, is because obviously in the summer we were having the, um, discussion of, you know, whether Vegas would take Nate Schmidt or Philip Grubauer.

And I think they made the right call in terms of, I don't always just go with that player type. But it's interesting because I think the capitals might need to rely on Grubauer a bit here. And, you know, he's probably gone this summer. I don't think they'll be able to afford him on his next deal. And he's going to be an intriguing guy in terms of that next wave of, you know, guy that was a really good backup on a really good team for a while and whether he can, a team's going to gamble on him being their starter and whether he's going to be able to match those

expectations and that's going to be a fascinating storyline to unfold this summer but yeah for now um you know especially with their current position where with the penguins having been so good lately now that number one seat in the metro is up for grabs and there's still a lot of jogging for position to be done there and they're going to need to win some games in this final month and uh yeah maybe Grubauer is going to be play a big role in that in terms of the capital's team um

honestly I don't think this team is very good um no despite their uh despite their win loss record I mean you think especially relative to the past years I should say yeah do you think it's a personnel issue though I mean their blue line is wretched yeah I mean part of that is because

they've got a couple players who aren't you know playing up to expectations right like i don't think matt niskinan this year last year is the matt niskinan of the three years before that right like and part of that's injury related yeah and you know demetre orlov has always been a bit overrated in my opinion like he's good but he has some serious defensive issues and you know john carlson as much as he's had a fantastic offensive year this year and you know probably one of the better years of his career again you know if john carlson's your number one guy.

Yeah. I don't think he's a good enough two-way defender to be your number one. Well, and that's the interesting point that you raised there for this discussion is what do they do this summer with that Blue Line? Because Carlson is going to get paid. Ooh. So, yeah, he has 12 goals and 53 points already this year, which are both pretty much matching his career highs and he still has 15 games or so left.

So he's going to, he's having a career year. which is perfectly timed with him hitting free agency, especially after playing on a really team-friendly deal the past handful of years. So, you know, he's going to look to cash in. And when you look at that pre-agent market for defensemen this year, there's really just like no one else beyond him.

So anyone that's looking to spend some money and upgrade their defense is going to be in on him. And I just, it's tough because I understand why the capitals kept him in terms of, you know, this summer and this trade deadline with their trajectory this year and they're still trying to win a cup. But it's going to be really tough to keep him. And I guess the more important question is, should, like, would you want to be the team that pays John Carlson this summer? Because, you know, he's approaching his 30s.

He has often, in my opinion, been overrated because of his physical abilities. And this year, he's got the offensive numbers that are going to talk. himself, get people talking themselves into him being a number one guy. And I just, I shudder to think at what he's going to make this summer and who he's going to pay him because I don't even think the capitals can afford him if they want to. Yeah. I mean, you look at his career history and, you know, there's been, I guess he had one year where he struggled with injuries, but he's only had one other year above 50 points, which I know that's a lot for a defenseman, but I don't know, man, for a guy who's not like a complete player who's probably going to command, you're looking at

I'd imagine with the salary cap rising, he's looking at at least seven and a half to eight mill, right? Like that's like the starting point from the team perspective. And the years. I'm assuming he's going to ask for a lot more than that. Oh, yeah, for sure he'll want Max term. I kind of, you know, I know that the capitals kicked the door on Carlson at the trade deadline. And it was kind of reported by the insiders that their plan was essentially to flip John Carlson to Vegas and then trade for Eric. Carlson. So I wonder if that kind of signals that they're okay with moving on from John Carlson.

And now it sucks to not get anything for him. But if they are able to pull off a trade for Eric Carlson, I don't think many people in Washington would be upset. No. Yeah, I agree with that. But yeah, I mean, you know, the tough thing and we get into this quite a bit when we, you know, kind of fantasy book like this and it's easy for us to be like of course you shouldn't pay carlson what he's going to command this summer that's crazy talk but then yeah a lot harder to just lose if you lose them for nothing then it's like this blue line which we already just said um is depleted and doesn't have very many weapons all of a sudden if you lose him and it's not like the capitals are like flush with cash where it's like oh well you know they can just turn around and spend a bunch

of money elsewhere especially since carlson's making like less than four million against the books this year right so it's not like you're gonna it's going to it's going to be be tough to find a defenseman with the amount of money they're going to have that's going to seamlessly come in for that price and even replicate what he's been able to do, let alone upgrade on that. So it's like, how are you getting better this summer? Yeah, you know, I got to tell you, Dimitri, it might be a lot easier for them if they didn't have a 38-year-old Brooks Orpick on the cap next year for five and a half. That's crazy.

I think I would honestly say that it's just as crazy seeing that. T.J.O. She's making 5.75 for the next till infinite till forever basically. And the reason why I say that in TGO she's obviously a more valuable player than Brooks Orpick, but like this summer, the fact that they in good conscience gave him that deal just still blows my mind. Yeah. What's crazy is that they gave him that deal and I think they were like cautious with that deal like compared to what they could have done with him coming off that crazy shooting percentage season. I remember when it was signed. I was like, oh, I'm surprised it's that reasonable, even though it's way too long.

Well, yeah, I still get, yeah, no, the 5.75 isn't even that crazy. I just, like, I still get pushed back on that. It's like, oh, well, you know, even if the shooting percentage is crazy and he's like a 25-ish goal score in your top six, like, you know, that's not that bad of a price to pay. It's like, no, I don't think you understand opportunity cost and like a value-based approach. like just in the position he was playing, I imagine you could replace that at least, you know, reasonably well for a fraction of the cost.

And it just, that's like a luxury item that you cannot afford to be tying that much money up into, especially for that long because now it's going to be really hard to get out of that deal. And yeah, stuff like that is just, is frustrating because you'd obviously like to see them maximize this window, while O'Ebecan is still playing this well and give him more chance to win a cup.

But I, it's, they have their work. cut out for them this summer in terms of how they're going to get better as a team with the assets they have to work with. Yeah. And if he was a 25 goal score, they probably wouldn't be worried about it, but he's got 12 so far this year. So not so much. And, you know, his career average, even including that crazy 33 goal season and 68 games last year, it's only 22 a year or 22 per 82. So, you know, how much do you expect that at TJ Oshy going forward into his 30s? He's already 31.

and, you know, he's built like a tank, and that helps, even though he's 5-11, but I don't know, he's got some injury history. He's, you know, had some consistency issues his whole career. He's pretty much a 20-goal, 45 to 50-point scorer maybe for the next three to four years, and then after that, less. So that's a tough one to look at. But then again, I guess also the capitals were kind of thinking that, you know, maybe five years down the line is not as important as the next two to three. Well, yeah, that's fair. But I mean, they're paying the price already right now for that deal.

This is true. It's like not one of those things. It's like, oh, well, it's great now. So. Yeah, it's not great, which is the problem. It's like, it's passable. Ah, there we go. Well, after 75 minutes of podcast, then we have this, we have this connection.

And we just put that on display. All right, Andrew, let's get out of here. Plug some stuff. What are you working on these days? Same as usual. My three articles a week for Sportsnet, one for RDS. And yeah, looking forward to the playoffs. That's pretty much it, man.

Taking care of the kid. Yeah. Me as well, except for the kid part. I'm looking forward to the playoffs. And yeah, it's good, good having you on the show. And let's do this again sometime soon. Yeah, absolutely, man. Thanks for having me on.

Cheers. The Hockey PDO cast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at SoundCloud. cloud.com slash hockey p-docast.