The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 229: You Don't Appreciate It Till It's Gone

Episode Date: April 4, 2018

Chris Johnston joins the show to discuss the Sedins finally getting the outpouring of love they deserve now that they're walking away from the game, and where the Canucks go from here in filling the void they're leaving behind. We also get into the 2019 free agent class, players coming together to shift the power dynamic in the NHL, what William Karlsson's next contract looks like after his epic season, and whether Winnipeg can become a desirable destination for players to want to go play in. Plus all sorts of other random goodness.  Sponsoring today’s show is Indochino. They’re now hooking my listeners up with any premium suit in their catalogue for just $379 (including free shipping). To take advantage of this great offer, just visit their website and enter the promo code PDOwhen checking out. Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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My name is Dimitri Filippovich. and sitting across from me in the CBC building. And this is, what would you call this? It's like the war room or something. It's the one Elliot Friedman's Twitter profile picture is all you Hawkingen and Canada guys sitting here watching the games on a Saturday. Yeah, I think they call it the commentator's room.

And this is where we are between periods, or sorry, during periods rather, watching the games. We got, what, 10 big screens up here, and this is where all the chaos happens on a Saturday. There we go. No games on right now, recording this on. a Tuesday afternoon, but, you know, I guess the natural starting point for us here is the game

that's going to happen on Thursday night and the announcement by the Siddings yesterday that, you know, this is going to be it for them. They've got a couple games here left and then they're going to, I don't know if they're necessarily going to ride off into the sunset. Like, have they said, are they going to play for Sweden in any international tournaments or is this it for them? Good question. I actually don't know the answer to that one. You know, this year the World Championships are at Denmark, which is the country besides Sweden, so maybe it's kind of homeish, but it doesn't feel like that's where this is headed for them. It does feel as though this is it.

And, you know, it's kind of interesting to hear them or the way, I guess the manner in which they've gone about this. I can't really think of anything quite like it. Maybe since what, Wayne Gretzky's retirement, where he announced it basically in the last week of the season and they were able to give them a bit of a send-off. But, you know, usually it doesn't go down this way. hockey and I think especially what the seasons they're having. If you had asked me three months ago, I would have said I would have expected them back next season.

So, you know, it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out with a couple home games and then finishing at Edmonton on the last Saturday of the season kind of a unique way to go out. I mean, obviously this is a story that hits close to home. I've been following them up close and personal throughout their entirety of their careers, basically. And it's got a special place in my heart just because, You know, when they were sort of ascending into their prime years and when they took over the car keys to the franchise from the West Coast Express and they really started to become operational on point producers in NHL, that was sort of the point where I'd watch hockey games, but I wasn't necessarily fully invested in it. I was much more of a basketball guy and I was sports in general, but I wasn't a huge hockey person. And it was just impossible not to be just enthralled by their style and the way they got it done.

And, you know, they were never the most physically impressive athletes. They never blew you away with their speed or their strength or anything like that. But it was just the passing and the positioning and knowing where to be at all times, where the other guy was going to be and how they made their teammates better regardless of who they played with. So I feel like they're kind of partly responsible for me first, like, falling in love with hockey and then actually getting into this industry and sitting here talking. There's no hockey PDO cast. Sitting here to talk to you.

So, I mean, I don't know where that ranks on their list of accomplishments for their career, but for myself personally, it's pretty high. it's interesting seeing, you know, after this news comes out after they write that article, um, obviously it was met with a lot of admiration and reverence and people, you know, sharing their fondest memories of them throughout their careers and what they personally meant to them. And it's kind of, we always go through this especially when, like people die.

It's like, it's like you always hear everyone just their career funeral. Yeah, exactly, right? And so it's kind of weird to talk about because there's still 37 year olds and they have promising futures ahead and whatever endeavor they want to do. and I'm sure they're going to live long, prosperous lives after this, but it does kind of feel like it's like a better sweet moment where I felt like they went underappreciated for such a long time,

and now they're finally getting a lot of the love they deserve relatedly, but it feels weird that they're not going to be playing next season, even though they're clearly not the players they once were. Well, to me, it's looking back at it, and I hadn't really thought of this much. I just hadn't put much brainpower in this direction. It feels as though they were a bit ahead of their time. And, you know, they found their first sort of prominence prior to the era where

sort of possession stats are talked about but their game was all about controlling the puck and especially cycling around the offensive end and doing things that wasn't really measured certainly the way it is today and all the sort of ogreish hockey stereotypes lobbied at them or lobbed at them rather

were about their lack of physicality and all those things whereas now if you look at the NHL today I mean there really isn't much physicality maybe we'll see a bit more when the playoffs get going next week but But it's a sport where hitting is not nearly as celebrated as it once was. Obviously, fighting doesn't exist. And I think we are looking for more skill out of our players.

And thankfully, there's this whole new generation of young guys who have all kinds of it to burn. And, you know, they were just a little bit ahead of the curve to me in a sense. It's not that there wasn't skilled players beforehand. But what they do best or what they did best on their primes wasn't appreciated for a lot of the time that they were doing it until the tail end of their careers. I guess that's the way it goes sometimes But I think history is going to treat them very well I'm among those who expect them

To be pretty automatic entrance to the Hall fame together The way they entered the lead together And did everything together it seems as hockey players And you know Pretty special guys I mean when you think back to those West Coast Express teams At that period if you were a Canucks fan You probably thought things were going to go downhill

You know because Bertuzi and Nasland And Morrison were so popular and these guys propelled them even higher. They were the core of a team that should have won the Stanley Cup, if not for some injuries and bounces and things that come into play. And they just had fantastic careers. And I kind of like that they're going out on their own terms. For sure.

So few guys get to do that. And working in this business that come to know some players on a pretty personal level and to hear their end of their careers, like most of the time it's really unpleasant. And they're scared and they don't know what's going to happen. And it's not their choice and they're bought out or this or that. I mean, these guys are going to get celebrated now in their last week in a way that's probably going to blow them away. And, you know, I can't wait to watch that game, especially on Thursday, their last home game in Vancouver.

I'm glad you brought up sort of the kind of being ahead of their time and obviously with the possession game and everything like that. But I also think they were a nice, and I'm kind of regurgitating this information from this eulogy that my editor had me right on the website. But, you know, when they came into the league, I feel like it's fair to say the product, definitely less aesthetically pleasing than it is right now. And they help really sort of chaperone the league from that era to what it is now. And they were never necessarily the fastest guys playing in transition the way we see guys like Nathan McKinnon and Connor McDavid play now. But it was that sort of more skill-based approach, possession game,

especially in the offensive zone where they kind of redefined what it is, what it looks like to be difficult to play against because for a while everyone would say, you know, guys that throw body checks. and fight a lot. Those guys must be a nightmare to play against because they're going to hurt you physically. But then you watch what the Cedines did. And I think Jonathan Taves even talked about this yesterday

when he was asked about sort of his thoughts on their career and what it was like to play against them. And he mentioned that it was just a terror to play against them because they'd pin you in the defensive zone for 90 seconds on end and you just be chasing the entire time. And eventually it just kind of sucked the life out of you. And you're sucking oxygen for half of that shift. Exactly.

And so, you know, prototypically, maybe they never were the most. most, you know, defensively oriented or defensively gifted players, but the good thing for them is they never really had to be exposed to that because they were so often cycling behind the other team's net so far away from their own. So I don't know, I think especially I'm glad people are finally appreciating that and thinking back on what they've meant to the league. And I also do, just on the topic of being ahead of their time, I wonder if they came into the league today how differently they'd be thought of or appreciated just because of this sort of social media era we're in now with, you know, as soon as you do any highlight real worthy thing,

all of a sudden, 50 accounts have a gif up on it and it's being passed around on Twitter on Instagram. And now you look back at some of those old clips of theirs, it's this grainy CBC footage. And it's like, you can't even make out who's who. And you're just like, what's going on here? It looks pretty cool. Is that two-hrees or two- twos? Yeah, exactly. And so I wonder, like maybe, I wonder if they'd be much more popular and appreciated just

on a league-wide level if in their prime right now you're watching on a nightly basis, them doing through the legs passing play give and goes and that goal they scored against the flames when they basically locked up Henrik Siddeans or Ross Trophy they generated four goals that night to believe it was kind of like a meaningless game because they were already getting into the playoffs and Calgary wasn't but they were just

that's what I think of when I think of the Siddeans they're primed they were just this force of nature and the flames just that entire night were just so helpless and had no plan of attack on how to stop them or slow them down at all and they're doing that play where Hendrik Siddeans like tipping it through his legs and then and then Daniels finishing it against Keprasoff, and you're just like, these guys are on a different level right now

than everyone else on the ice. Well, I have no doubt they would be more popular now, just with what's celebrated and even you rightly point out the way things are shared. And, you know, because there were some pretty special things on the ice. And almost in today's game at times, I think, and I'm actually fine with this, but we overlook some of the bad things that really good players do

because the really high-end stuff they do is worth, watching again and again and those gifts that run through your, you know, your Twitter feed and things like that. And, you know, they, they would be much bigger stars probably. I mean, it's not to say they weren't. I know in Sweden they're on another level and were before they even got to North America in Vancouver. It's evident even sitting in Toronto, five-hour flight away, you know, just how beloved they were and are. You know, and they're just, they're almost like the metronomes, I think. Like, like part of it is, is on the eye. and I think part of it is off the ice, you know, what they meant to the community.

And, you know, even that organization, I think they really set the way to be a Kinnock for a long time. And, you know, that's probably what management's most worried about, I would think, is what happens after that, because it's not automatic that it continues. I know, you know, one of the reasons that Detroit Red Wings refused to rebuild, you know, even as they were just barely getting in the playoffs, is they just were worried about letting that sort of standard, that internal drive, you know, something that you don't have a coach yelling at guys. You know, it almost exists within the dressing room where the level is that everybody has to be at. You know, I feel like that's what they said.

I do know, you know, I wasn't around them as much being based in the East. But I remember that 2011 Stanley Cup final, they were just omnipresent. And, you know, covering the game six in Boston, I don't know what the final score was. I know they got blown out. Seven one? Yeah, something like that. It wasn't, you know, they had a chance to win the Stanley Cup that night. Right.

And, and didn't. And I just remember those guys were the two guys that came out after the game and spoke until there was no more questions and just little things like that. I know sometimes media members make too much of that sort of stuff. But, you know, I do think that they were kind of the conscience of things too, you know, which is going to be tough to replace. And, you know, it would be very interesting to see, do they work for the Canucks? Do they want to be around the team next year?

You know, obviously, I know they don't want to be on the road. They've talked about, you know, spending more time with their families and their kids and birthday parties and all those things. But, you know, I don't know if they're just going to drift away and we won't see them again, or at least, you know, other than the odd Jersey retirement and Hall of Fame night, or if they're going to have a more hands-on future in the sport. Yeah, I know people, the listen to the show know that we typically focus on the on-ice stuff here, and I try not to get too much into the psychological component of things or are they off-the-ice stuff.

But with them, like, when you talk about them and what they meant to the crux in the league, you really do have to appreciate that a little bit. And I think as we pivot here and talk about what the Canucks are going to do now and how they're going to fill this void and how they're going to approach this summer, something that I think Angle overlooked is things have been really bad. I mean, Kruv, the past couple of years, as I've been talking about on end here this season. I notice, you really are paying attention. And they did wonders, I think, in terms of deflecting a lot of that

and taking the brunt of it from the younger players on the team. And then now that they're not going to be around to answer those questions about what went wrong after they just lost 6-1 for the fourth straight time, you know, guys like Boerbat and Brock Besser are suddenly going to have to start answering those questions. And I don't want to buy too much into that. And, you know, it's part of the job. And I'm sure they'll be fine. But I do think that's, they really kind of went out taking like one last bullet for the team this season because every night you'd see them always owning up to it and being the first guys to sort of. of answer what went wrong when there was so many things to choose from. Well, and they didn't complain. Yeah. At least not in any public way. And I think that that was an important aspect for the organization because their minutes were cut pretty significantly in their roles, you know, especially before the injuries

hit, they were not playing very much. And you wouldn't have known it from, you know, what they were saying. I think in some ways they've saved the organization, I guess, having to be maybe even tougher on that front by, you know, stepping aside now rather than trying to push on from this point because they're probably not going to get more useful to the team on the ice, you know, as time goes along. And now there will be certainly the expectations of who picks up after them will be what's talked about now.

And if Bohorovata, to just name one, doesn't have a good season next year, I think he'll feel the sting of that a little bit more. You know, I saw that in Toronto with Nazim Cadry because, you know, there's a lot of expectations he was the Leaf's first top ten pick quite a while, and everyone thought who's going to be the number one center, and that was sort of a circular debate for four or five years or longer. And then once you get Austin Matthews and you have a number one center, and he plays behind them,

I just think, Nazam Cadre's life gets a lot easier. Of course. Yeah, everything falls into a more natural place. And, you know, Vancouver probably hasn't had that person even with the Cydines now

because they haven't been at that level. But I think there's going to be, that will be felt a little bit more unless they take that cap space and lure John Tavaris to the west. I mean, which, you know, you can never say never.

they can probably offer as much or more money than anyone else. It's like them in San Jose basically, right? Are the two? You know, Vegas has a little hype around it too. Even after Carlson's there? Well, I don't know. I don't know. I haven't examined that,

but I'm sure that the teams will at least revisit that conversation because that was his most likely landing spot at the deadline. But, you know, unless they do truly bring in someone like that, it's going to be a tough spot because as we're sitting here now, it's hard to imagine the Canucks really being much better next season. Well, so that's the elephant in the room here because obviously with 14 million coming off the books with both Cedines coming off this summer and the Canucks are, with it going up to $80 million league wide, I believe they're going to have like $25 million or something like that of free space. And then obviously that raised the questions of whether that's a blessing or a curse considering some of the recent signings this regime has made haven't necessarily panned out with what they did last summer with Sam Gagne and Michael. Losado and Anders Nielsen and then before that you look at Louis Erickson um you know throwing a ton of money

at Brandon Sutter I know he wasn't a free agent they'd trade for him but just how they've invested their resources when they've had the cap space hasn't necessarily been very encouraging so when you look at the landscape now and you look at a lot of the names I think John Tavares is an entirely different animal and if he for whatever reason decided you wanted to come to Vancouver which I think is quite the pipe dream although I'm seeing that a lot now with Canucks fans online um other than that I mean, I don't see any player really on that list of guys available that makes a ton of sense for this team. Obviously, you know, if the market dries up and all of a sudden they're taking a one or two-year deal to just make some money, sure, and then they're a trade-ed-ed-on asset. But, you know, when you start, you hear like Tyler Bozac is a guy who intrigues the Canucks, David Perraun, James Neal.

You look at some of these names and it's like, I just shudder to think at both the term and the salary. And the lineup spots they're going to be taking from the younger guys who should be playing. and developing in those in those gigs. I understand there's a little sort of desperation level for this management group to bring in names that are going to draw people to come to the games and give them a reason to care about the Canucks again,

but I don't know. I feel like this summer is kind of like a pothole just in the road waiting to trip up this organization and it's going to be fascinating to see whether they can resist the urge and actually keep that cap space to trade for future, you know, take on bad contracts maybe for future assets or if they just blow it right away just because they have money to spend.

Well, on signing anybody to a long-term deal at this point is it almost seems foolhardy. Because ideally, you know, the Canucks hope they've got some good prospects now or good young players. You know, you want those guys to be the stars. You want those guys to be the guys you have to pay in a couple years of time. And so to take a potential, you know, money you're going to have to be paying them three years from now, that's a huge risk. I mean, even what, I mean, John Tavares, I guess, we'll just leave him out of the conversation because I think considering what he may mean to any team is different than other free agents.

But beyond him, the 2018 free agent class has no solutions for anybody in it that I can see, really. I mean, I say that with respect to the players. I mean, there's guys that can help some teams in the right role. But, you know, if you're getting into bidding wars and things like that, it seems like there's potholes for the whole league. And so you look at a team like the Canucks that has among the most amount of money to spend under the cap. you know, San Jose is another one that has quite a bit of money, although they have the framework of a team much more in place where I think it would make sense for John Tavaris to go there,

given where Joe Thornton's had in his career, and I think there's a natural spot for him to step into and still have a team that's competitive. I mean, they're still competitive, as we're talking right now. So, yeah, it's going to be a dangerous summer in Vancouver. I mean, they can get in the, they could get in the Eric Carlson talks if those resurfaced or when those resurface. You know, they can do some creative things,

but the temptation, hopefully, I would say, is not to go out and spend a whole ton of money on July 1st because it's not the solution for most teams and especially not the solution when you're as far off as they are. So you're saying they shouldn't go all in on Evander Cain the summer? And take on a Milan-Lutarch's contract and just get every local guy to come back. I don't know. Van der Kaine can play. To me, it just depends on the contract. It's honestly, it's not to say they shouldn't go sign of Vander Kaine like straight up. I mean, look, he's played pretty well and produced certainly since going to the sharks at the deadline.

But, you know, there's risk. I think there's risk in signing any player to a six-year deal or seven-year deal, eight-year deal, whatever. I guess he can't do eight with Evander. But, you know, the point is, is when you do those contracts, you want to do them with players you know well and you know that they fit. And, you know, it makes sense to do that with Connor McDavid. I don't think that anyone's questioning the length of that deal from Edmonton's perspective. But when you're going out and free agency and throwing that around, it's just not the, the way good business is done in the league now.

You don't see the big teams doing that very much. I think there's value sometimes in the free agent market, but if you're the Kinnux, you really your whole focus should be on getting as many assets as possible, drafting as many players as possible, developing them the best you can and hope you get lucky. I mean, they could win the draft lottery in a couple weeks' time, and that changes the outlook for where they're at.

It doesn't solve every problem, but it would solve a big one if Frost of Stolleen was playing there next year. Yes, and that's, you can take that soundbite and just, you know, replace the Canucks with Ottawa. Pretty much every, every team and all of a sudden, Montreal. The outlook becomes a lot rosier. All right, CJ, take a quick break here, you hear from a sponsor, and we'll, we'll dig into the mailbag. I've tweeted out here that we're looking for some questions and we've got some interesting

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reason what happened this past weekend, and it was when I posted a picture of myself with the friend of the podcast, Uncle Jeff Merrick, and the hockey godfather himself, Bob McKenzie, took to Twitter to once again just mercilessly roast me like the low-key savage that he is for what I was wearing. And I know Bob's just having fun, and I can appreciate that because I feel pretty confident in the fact that despite his chirps, I was looking pretty good. And the reason I can say that is because I was supporting my beautiful, customized plaid suit from Indochino.

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is that really annoying part of the season where I just can round one please just start already so that we have new stuff to talk about. I'm just glad we had a real break. It wasn't one of those ones where you're like, oh, here's an ad. Like an awkward in a second break. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to pick it right back up. I don't know, you and I did

a puck talks with Justin Bourne last week. And we got some interesting stuff there. And I know that not everyone was in attendance or was able to watch the stream online so we can get into some of that stuff there. I know a common question we get these days is the Hart Trophy debate and who like what the terminology is what it should actually stand for who should be eligible who should be the favorite um where are you at right now as someone who will actually have to be making this decision pretty soon

I'm still pulling my hair out a little bit uh so it's Tuesday the votes have to be in a week from Wednesday you know meaning just before the playoff uh the starts so I got eight days to finalize a list and I was struggling with it if I'm being honest I mean it's hard to it's hard for me to just erase Connor McDavid but it's also hard for me to ignore some of the history of the voting and the handful of times that you know someone who's been this far out of the playoffs is won and and you know how much they won the scoring title by and things like that um you know there's some compelling arguments out there still though I mean I do think the likes of Nathan McKinnon and Claude Jure and

Taylor Hall and, you know, guys that have clearly propelled, been, been, you know, such drivers of teams that have maybe done a little better than we expected and have significantly outperformed their teammates have strong cases. You know, Anzay Kopitar, I don't know if he has enough either eyeballs or support or I haven't seen a ton of buzz about him, but I think he's got a really strong case to be considered. I honestly don't know who I'm going to vote for, and it's not to discuss. eyes my intentions or to try to kick the ball down the laneway.

I mean, I'm actually glad this is the year all the ballots are public. Have you been publicly making your votes known in the past? I haven't had an impetus to, but I know that you're a pretty open, transparent guy. I have in the past. I've certainly never shied away from whatever I voted and

I've actually kept my ballots. I mean, it's a weird process, but you know, you email them to this created email account. It's not even someone's email and it's Ernst & Young that does the the accounting and and if you don't CC yourself I mean I guess it would be in your send folder but I do have my ballots in case there's ever a question about who I voted for because you know you do forget I mean if you ask me who I voted for 2013 14 Norris I'd really have to like familiar myself

myself with which year that was and what happened was that the year that Carlson got robbed or no that was two years ago yeah 1415 yeah that would I didn't like that one I had Carlson but uh let me get true just that was the season yes to me that there was less to bait that normal that he should have won. But, and, you know, that's either here nor there. It's just, you know, I like that everyone, that the picks will be out there. And then we can talk about it if anyone wants to, or even I could do it as of, I guess, next Wednesday. CJ, I hate to break to you.

People will want to talk about it. Yeah. Well, I don't know, but I don't know in June how much, how much are people going to go back? I mean, okay, they're going to look for outlier votes, I'm sure. Right. But if, is someone really going to go back? And if I pick McKinnon, are they really going to raise that much issue with it? I don't know.

No, and this is where I'm at with it. I think, you know, I've been public. I think this stuff should have been happening for years now. And I understand they're... They're going to be pushback. You know, there's always going to be pushback. You know, they view it as a perceived slide against their favorite player or their favorite team.

Like, that's going to happen. It's inevitable. But I'm all for, if you can back up your opinion, even if I disagree with it, like, that's fine. Like, you're entitled to your opinion. That's the whole point of the vote. Yeah. I think what we want to try to,

race and I know that there's this kind of concern that it's going to become kind of a popularity vote and people are going to get peer pressured into making certain picks based on how the narrative's going online but I think ultimately you just want to remove those uh you know local homer picks where a like a random guy gets a third place selky vote just because he plays for the team whose announcer voted for him there it's like what why did that happen and you know in the grand scheme of things we take this stuff way too seriously but I don't know. I like it from that perspective. I think as long as you have an opinion that you can justify, that's fair. Just well, and I like honestly, now any complaints or issues or debates, it's not generally the PHWA, you know, which is like any organization. That means a lot of things to a lot of people. Yep. But now you can go through and you can scrutinize individual voting records. People can scrutinize me. And obviously, there's no way to get everyone to agree with you anyway. but I can then explain why I made my decisions and you know hopefully when I'm doing that it will show how much work I put into it

and how much care I took with it and that I you know I've always taken it seriously because I recognize that I have some small part in determining history and making some of these guys career if you win one major award you know in some cases that's a huge deal you know Nathan McKinn might never just to pick one might never have a season like this again he might never have a candidacy as strong as he does right now to win the heart trophy and to win the heart trophy is a special place in our game. So, you know, I wouldn't cast my ballot one way or another without some serious thought. But I just like that now it's me.

So if you have an issue, you can bring it to me. But if you don't like that random, you know, vote for John Scott to win the Selke, or, you know, pick a random guy if someone should be funny or whatever the reason people would ever. I've seen some pretty crazy ones. And it's like, obviously it's from a local broadcaster or something like that. Like, you can tell where these awards are coming from. Right. But this is going to create some headaches for people.

And that's what it should be. That's fine. I mean, I remember, I think it's in baseball. I've seen it where someone has won the MVP and they've had all but one first place vote. And the one writer that didn't vote him, like, it's named in like the AP stories. Like the goes on sort of record, you know, Joe Blow from the Kansas City starred, you know, is the only guy who didn't select so-and-so to win the award. I mean, I think that's fine. It's going to be interesting to see how this manifests itself.

I mean, hockey's a small world. I'm sure some people feel pressure. It's a lot easier for me. I must say, you know, I cover the Leafs a lot, but I'm not just a Leafs writer. I don't have the same, not one team. I'm not beholding the one team the way, say, a local writer might be,

especially if you're in a small market where you're the only, you know, daily presence on the beat. There might be some pressure there in certain places, and I think it could be tougher for them, you know, whereas, you know, I just can't give everyone happy. I'm just going to do what I think is best, and we'll live with the results. Yeah.

Well, that's a good point. You and I have talked about that in the past on the show. You know, the idea of like kind of maintaining your sources and obviously if you're a local beatwriter and you're covering the team on a daily basis, I mean, obviously maybe you'll appreciate what that given player does more just because you're watching them so closely on a nightly basis, whereas a national writer might not be. But there's also, I'm sure you like build these personal connections and you, that that must influence your boat. And whether that's right or wrong, I'm sure that happens. But I think maybe can we retroactively go back and now that we can release the. the voting details? Can we release the voting information for who voted not to make it public? Like, can we go back and I want to see, I want to see, I want to see which voters voted yes and

no, that be. I don't, I don't have the authority to do that. I actually don't know all the no votes. I know a few people because we had a meeting and a couple people, this is before the official vote, but like registered their complaints. I think a few people have decided not to vote since that it's going to be public. In some cases, it's because their papers are outlets don't allow them too, but at least in one or two, it's people that just don't want to be subjected to that. So, you know, if you're really eagle-dye, you might be able to figure out. Well, if Connor McDavid wasn't having such an amazing, hardworthy season, it'd be fascinating to see where the Edmonton chapter, for example, would vote for Taylor Hall in this MVP race

because I think, like, stuff like that is fascinating. That's why I'm happy these votes are going to be probably. It's going to, obviously from the outside looking at, I think it's going to provide some interesting storylines and topics to discuss on Twitter, and I'm sure people are going to have fun with it, myself included, so. The only thing is, I just wonder, I mean, it's still going to create buzz. I'm going to be wrong. But because the votes are placed early April and they're not released until June 22nd, 21st, whatever it is, I just don't know how that's going to be.

I mean, how many people are going through them? I guess there'll be a few of you out there. I think, like, at that point in the season, when they are released, I'd be like it's kind of much more quiet so there's less stuff to care about. So I think it'll be a story, none for sure. And, you know, it should be. It's the first time it's happened. And, you know, I think we asked for. for transparency and we want people to be honest with us if, you know, if we're asking about

certain things in our job, I mean, the least we can do is give it back, even though, you know, let's face it, the unspoken aspect of this is that Twitter is a bit of a difficult place to be sometimes. And that's not just for journalists. I mean, I think that's all kinds of different people for different reasons. But, you know, it's that it's not always a civilized discussion on there or very rarely or whoever you want to term that. And so, That'll be an aspect as let's see, is it going to be like a mob coming after people or what? I mean, I just use the mute function when people call me names and, you know, that works for me. So do you, what are you expecting this summer?

Let's look ahead because I know like last year around this time, whenever you talk to anyone, they'd be like, oh, I can't wait until the season's over because with the expansion draft coming up and everything, there's going to be fireworks and we're going to see a lot of movement. and even if the trades or moves don't materialize, it's going to give us at least something to talk about. This year, I mean, the free agency class is not that overwhelming other than John Tavares. I'm sure that Eric Carlson rumors are going to pick back up again, but otherwise, like, do you think there's going to be any fireworks?

And are there any teams in particular that you're kind of keeping a close eye on that could really look fundamentally different next year than they do right now? I don't foresee a ton of fireworks. I mean, Derek Carlson thing is real, and I'd be surprised if he was an Ottawa senator to start next season at this point. Just because usually once you open that box, it's a bit like Pandora's box, and it's hard to just undo that. I mean, everyone knows they had legitimate trade discussions about a generational player at the deadline, so there's no reason to believe that they're going to stop there just because they didn't get a deal done at the end of February. So that's going to be a real interesting trade, and it's probably one that happens in Dallas at the draft.

Not necessarily. I mean, we saw P.K. Subing had traded a week after the draft after some discussions were held there. I mean, there's a chance. It goes beyond it, but I'm thinking because Ottawa is likely to be getting at least one first round pick in that trade, that there's almost more value in getting it right away at that draft. You know, sort of the way, say, that Derek Stepan deal went down, and then the Rangers were able to get a pretty high draft pick from Arizona.

You know, so that's there. The Tavares thing is, I mean, it hasn't gotten a ton of public. It has, but it hasn't. I don't feel like it's been a daily storyline. But that's going to be pretty big. If it goes away, it looks like it's going. It looks to me like he's testing the market. And we have not had a free agent like that in a long, long time.

Who's as good as he is, still relatively young. And, you know, that will be interesting. And then beyond that, I don't see a huge trade market developing this summer. I don't see a team that I think is going to just go bananas. I think teams are getting a little more conservative with what they do in the summer in general. Like I don't, like, I keep hearing, you know, James Van Rames like gets a lot of attention in Toronto

because he's a pending UFA really doesn't look like the least want to sign him. And he's having a career season in terms of his goals. And everyone's saying, oh, another goal is going to be more money. And it's like, I'm not sure it is. Because I don't, you know, I'm not sure that there's 12 teams bidding on him. Like it doesn't feel to me like Free Agent works at free agency. often works that way anymore. So, you know, it's one thing for John Tavares, you know, where you might literally get a team offering something close to the max.

Like, they might offer him more than Connor McDavid just because you're getting him. Yep. In this place. But beyond that, I think it's going to be kind of a conservative summer. You know, 2019 is a real summer, right? I mean, that's, and this is what I'm wondering, if John Tavaris goes through free agency and actually becomes, like, one of the very few NHL superstars that switches teams on July 1st, does that maybe make it easier for other guys to do it in 2019? Because I don't know if you have the list anywhere handy.

I mean, we already know Dowdy, Carlson, Oliver Ekman-Larson. I believe even guys like Logan Kuchure, you know, not to put them on the exact same level, but there's a lot of intriguing names that could be available in that free agency class. And, you know, it sort of feels like that might be sort of like the equivalent of what we're seeing in baseball now. It could be one big summer where a bunch of players with similar attributes go to the market and try to cash in. Yeah, this is going to be quite the year for unrestricted, the one you're talking about the following summer. You know, just looking at some of the names here in Cap Friendly. You know, you have Matt Duchayne, Artemmy Panarin, Tyler Sagan, Blake Wheeler.

I mean, the thing is about some of these guys, by the time this date comes around, we'll have signed extensions in Will. stay with their teams, but some of these guys will test the market and we'll give us stuff to talk about. I mean, you look like, Sergey Bobrovsky's available. Like, there's a lot of names here where in a lot of summers, they'd be like the number one guy that everyone would be talking about. And here they might be the six or sevens just because there's so many other guys to pick from. Well, and look at the guys you just mentioned. I mean, Blake Wheeler, the Jets level means they're capped and they're having a great season, but they're going to be in some cap issues here. I mean, they have to pay Patrick Line. I mean, you know, probably one of the storylines of this summer will be worth the R.

RFA's end, end up. You know, the Leafs have their three young guys. You've got Line A potentially up for an extension this summer. I think there's some interesting decisions in there, and they could have ramifications. You know, even the Blue Jackets, I mean, if they have Panarin and Bobrovsky. Yep. I mean, that's going to cause some fallout if they were to sign them both ahead of that.

I mean, that might be where we get some of our, you know, more spirited debates. You know, especially if, just to create the scenario. I mean, we had the McDavid deal pretty early in the summer last year. But if Matthews and Line don't sign on or near July 1st when they're first able to, do they maybe go in? Is there a game of chicken that's had? I mean, I think that that will generate some discussion and some interest. I mean, ultimately, players that good are going to get paid.

That's the way I look at it. I mean, if you're Winnipeg, to me, there's a risk in not signing him this summer because if Patrick Liney goes and wins the heart trophy next year, wins a Richard and he could still win it this year with a huge finish year at the very end. but, you know, he's going to be even more valuable after his third season. So, you know, that might be where some of the biggest action now comes is because the young players are such big part of the teams they're on. And the second deal is such an important decision.

I know this goes against the fabric and the nature of hockey and the brand. It tries to uphold. But are we going to get to a point where, you know, especially in like the summer of 19, you have so many names that are going to be available. like I would love for it to be an NBA style thing where like three of these guys predetermined that they're going to go sign with like obviously with the hard cap it's kind of more difficult to make it happen and a team would have to clear up all this space but like just this idea of like guys sort of picking a destination and being like we're going to turn this team into

not necessarily a super team it's maybe much tougher to do that in hockey but a team that all of a sudden just becomes this potent team with three mega super mega superstars that just decided to go play there like I don't know stuff like that I I I'm very curious to see if that's going to happen, especially with this younger generation of guys that are coming up now, it seems like they're much more sort of friendly, and they're playing together on all these junior teams coming up and training together in the summers,

and I wonder if that's something that we are going to see moving forward. I see no reason to think that wouldn't happen. You know, like even look back to the All-Star game, I mean, there was very clearly a wooing type scenario going on with Eric Carlson and Victor Headman, and I know they're buddies, they're at each other's weddings the previous summer. They've known each other for years. but, you know, it was pretty evident in what was happening in Tampa that there was, you know,

those lightning guys were trying to warm Eric's mind, you know, probably for a potential trade because Eric was going to have some control over the process. But maybe even for down the road for free agency, you know, we've heard even Carlson himself say that he and Doughty are going to talk more about their market and what the teams are offering because they see themselves as comparables, obviously. They both are represented by the same agency that that's going to make. They don't even really like to call each other. I'm sure Don Me in.

Pat Morris and everyone in the office of Newport is going to be pretty up on what the market is for those two. But, you know, hockey is such a small world. It should happen. And it's happening in the other sports. I mean, the path is there for them. You know, one thing I love about the young guys coming in the league is that I don't think that they're as wired. They're not as wired to be old school hockey in general. I mean, I just see it in the way they dress.

and the way they embrace social media and putting themselves out there publicly. I think that slowly some of those traditions of everyone being robots on a team is being eroded. And those guys are growing up in a world having seen what's happened in the NBA with even going back to like Wade and Bosch

and LeBron going to the heat. To me it's only a matter of time. I mean, you just need a summer where there's enough of them as free agents, which 2019, at least on the surface, presents it. and, you know, why not? And if the cap keeps going up, and especially this year where we're getting a decent bump and with Seattle coming in, there's a reason to think that there's going to be more HR growth

and we might see, you know, some years where the cap really jumps and gives teams more of an opportunity to do this, I think it's going to happen and it's going to be awesome. I mean, come on, we need more stories. Yep. I mean, it's a sport and we love the sport, but it's an entertaining property, too. And if you're a player too, you know, this is part of John Tavaris's decision. I mean, you have such a small window to try to win. I mean, he's been loyal forever.

I mean, no one questions his loyalty to the New York Islanders. But, you know, there is a good question there about what they've done for him. You know, they've paid him actually less than market value, which is his, you know, he took that contract. But, you know, he could have made more money elsewhere and he could have some cups that, you know, have had he been drafted somewhere else. Yes. As the co-host of this podcast, I feel valid and vindicated. I know I'm pushing the right buttons now. because I wish people could see the smile on your face when you were talking about.

I could see the wheels turning, just the idea of these guys coming together in that story, just of the reporting and sort of the investigative research of like, how did this come together? Do you guys have meetings in the summer? What's going on? I love that sort of thing. I want the players to take over the league. Yeah. Honestly.

Yes. Because like a lot of these guys in the ways I've gotten to know them, like I still feel like, and I only know them still surface level, but there's just a lot more there. And I think in some ways hockey still serves to shut them down. it's small things. I remember the All-Star game in L.A. And the same thing might have happened in Tampa, but I didn't see it. But they have the media day.

And they were made to wear these, like, outfits. And it was one of their sponsor outfits. But it's basically the equivalent of like what, you know, the type of underwear, long underwear they wear under their, you know, like workout warmup type of gear. And I'm like, why are these guys that were in L.A.? And so many of them like wear just the awesome cool suits. Like, why are they not dressing up and the more flamboyant ones wearing things that get a attention that people talk about that gets, you know, like to me, at least this year I saw,

you know, they had a red carpet in Tampa and, you know, some of the guys clearly made an effort with their suit and that was on social media. Like, like, I think that they should be allowed to show more of that personality and, and I do think it's going to happen. But, you know, let's let's let the inmates take over here. I mean, it's their skill that people pay for. They have the talent. They, they should run the league a little bit more than they probably do. And some, even ways like this, I mean, co-op free agency. Why not? I mean, there's no reason to think all the teams are bargaining in good faith with, you know, when it comes to doing deals. You know, I expect, and I don't necessarily know for sure, but if, when, if you're L.A. and your Ottawa, I just depicted two examples and you're thinking of extending Carlson and Dowdy, there might be at least some exploratory talks about where you think the market is for that.

I think it would be foolish to think otherwise. And, you know, players also similarly are represented by the same agents in a lot of cases. You know, there's opportunity here. And I think it can be good for the sport if it's done the right way. I mean, you ask there why we don't see players do it. And I think the answer, you know, what it is. And it's every time anyone says something controversial or does something that goes away from the norm, all of a sudden they get roasted about it online and people freak out.

That's part of it. I mean, when it comes to free agency, too, I think because of the physical nature of the sport, there's risks involved in playing out your contract when you can sign a seven or eight-year extension at pretty good money to stay living where you are and stay in your situation. I mean, I don't begrudge players for extending their deals early because that's guaranteed money, the way it works in the NHL. And that's, it's lifetime-changing money. I mean, even look at the contract just off the top of my head, Victor Arvinson signed in Nashville. I mean, he signed objectively below his market value, but this is a guy that, like, passed through the draft.

No one believed in. He's my height, which isn't usually a good thing for NHL players. And look at this career. He's built for himself. And then he gets, what was it, $28, $29 million, I think, on that seven-year extension. I mean, I can get while he signed that. I mean, there's value in that. But, you know, the more players that do go through to free agency and ride it to the end.

And if they ever band together, I think that they can exert some power that we haven't really seen NHL players do in a long time. Well, I know this happened. I don't know if you follow baseball very closely, but the Phillies signed one of their top prospects to this kind of mega, long-term deal who hadn't even played for them yet. Scott Kingree before the season. And there was this, in baseball especially, we have, I don't want to get too much into the minutiaeum. but, you know, guys get kept down for a couple weeks to start the season, so they push back their arbitration clocks and teams buy another year, and you have a lot of that sort of management that goes on there,

and it's a bit easier to salvage and spin to your fans because the season is so long. But it makes sense why teams can get away with this stuff in terms of having the leverage on players. Like if someone comes to you, and I forget what Arbidson's exact deal was, but, like, let's say, $30 million, and especially if you come from, you know, humble upbringing and you've never, obviously seen that type of money if someone's willing to give you that like it's pretty hard to there's one thing about being confident and betting on yourself but it's another to turn down that kind of money especially in a sport where you know you could take one wrong turn take a hit to the head and all

a sudden you're never the same again and maybe you just cost yourself 15 20 million dollars like it's this is this is a legitimate internal debate the players have to go through every time they are about to a hit free agency well and good for him he's backed it up this year and he's got another 60 plus points and close to 30 goals if he's not quite there yet. You know, the best example in hockey I can think of is that Korea-salane leverage situation where they went to Colorado. And I know it didn't work out, but, you know, maybe that's part of the trouble to in hockey is even two great players in their primes.

There's still a lot of X factors around a hockey team that can keep that from being successful, whereas in the NBA, when three stars goes to one place, there's a pretty good chance you're going to win a title, I'd say. Right. But, okay, if Dowdy and Carlson were like, we're going to go sign with the Islanders, let's say. Right. Like, I don't know how much better that team would be, but I feel pretty confident saying quite a bit better, especially since you could basically cover the full, like, if you split them up and you play on one separate pairs,

you're basically the full game, you're having. They could have you at eyes the third deep. Yeah, it doesn't matter. We're just sitting on the bench, just giving high fives. Yeah, we give the best fist bumps after true scores. We're good in the room. That's right. But, yeah, you're right.

And just because we haven't really seen it, especially, like, I'd be curious to see what that looks like. I mean, it's not that different, I guess, of Hedman's sort of recruiting Carlson, you know, that presents that same kind of opportunity. I mean, to me, it just seems inevitable that we're going to get there. You know, we have another lockout coming. There's lots of opportunity for players to try to scheme, to do what they can. And, you know, with so many guys in 2019, maybe that will be the sun. where we'll be going into that summer with all kinds of fireworks in our minds. And I guess we wouldn't have an expansion that summer.

It'd be the next one for Seattle. So maybe 2019 will be our fireworks summer after. I mean, Carlson and Tavares moving teams will be pretty big news this summer. I mean, I don't want to douse flame. Boring. What have you done for me lately, news cycle? But, you know, I don't see, honestly, I don't see, like San Jose, look, they're poised to spend money. I think that puts them as a frontrunner for Tavaris.

I know there's other jams in the league that feel that that's where Tavares is going to end up. You know, that'll be interesting. I mean, Vegas is going to have some money. So if they go after one or both of those guys, I mean, maybe Vegas will do it this summer. That would be something. I mean, it's not necessarily Tavaris and Carlson cooking it up together, but, you know, they could trade for one and sign the other. I mean, given what the season they've just had, that would be, that would create some shockwaves. Yes.

yeah, no, I've actually been watching quite a few of their games lately, especially the home ones. I want to get a better feel for what's going on there. You know, this stuff always... Is it still the Vegas flu or is there something more happening? What do you think they're legitimately good? Like, we'll see how, if that translates to the playoffs and whether they're able to keep it going and whether, you know,

I subscribe to the idea that I know we're still so late into the season, maybe not anymore, but especially early on, it felt like rather than the Vegas flu was more so teams, they were just catching teams off guard, especially with their speed and their style of play and how quickly they're transitioning. And it felt like they were getting away with that and sort of masking some of their talent deficiencies throughout the lineup with that. But now, I mean, we're 80 games in and they're still catching teams off guard. I wonder, you know, in a playoff series, when you can really sit down and game plan for them fully and on a game to game basis,

whether some of those talent deficiencies will be exposed a bit more, especially if they run into the right team who can match up with them personnel-wise. But, man, some of these games, it just... I love, there's something going on back. I love, like, that game against the abs they played recently was just, it was incredible. It was both teams as soon as they got the puck, it's just like, they're just trying to go back the other way. And that, as much as we talk about how the game has evolved and it's much more modernized and more offensively, skill-based, faster pace, I still think there's like another notch for us to go where every team is just going to start playing, like those two teams were playing in that game, for example. Well, and there's, there's enough evidence now.

I think if you're a team that isn't doing as well as you think you are, to just pull up some young guys who can skate and guys that aren't making a ton of money. I mean, we've seen enough examples of that, I think, around the league where that helps around the margins. I mean, obviously, you still need some supreme skilled guys to carry your team, but maybe William Carlson's that guy. I mean, man, his next contract negotiation this summer is going to be fascinating because, I mean, there's nothing in his past that suggests he's this and now he's a 40-goal guy. I don't know where you land on that deal.

Is he arbitration eligible? I believe he is, yes. Yeah, it's going to be fascinating because we always talk about how teams are smart. You don't want to go to Arb with him if you're Vegas. Oh, he's going to get paid for that. I mean, he's 40s. Because goals, you know, one thing that I've heard from teams is that goals in particular tend to be historically a stat that gets guys paid a lot more than even what the teams think they're worth.

Right. But so, you know, we hear how teams are getting smarter, how they're getting analysts, departments and how they're focusing on some of this stuff now. But then, you know, this past summer, for example, as smartest teams are getting, you see TJ Oshy's contract and it's like everyone that's paying attention at all knows, this is a good player. He's a middle six winger. You know, your team's going to be better having him than not having him.

But if you're the capitals, how can you possibly sign him to what he's going to be asking for considering he just shot 23% and is very clearly not going to do that again? And this year comes back to exactly the player he was before. And then the opposite, Jordan Eberle, sort of similar thing. where most consistent goal score in the league, 25 goals on lock, has one poor shooting percentage season gets traded for pennies on the dollar. I understand there's some salary implications there and whatnot, but then all of a sudden, he's right back to exactly the player he was.

And we see this time and time again where there's shooting percentage fluctuations that I feel like still play into this. And I'm fascinated to see. I think, you know, William Carlson, it's easy to say he's not going to shoot 25% again or whatever he is now. And yeah, he's not going to score 40 plus goals next year. But can he be a 25 goals score? for you and if so

in today's day and age that's still a pretty valuable asset. Especially as a first line center. Yeah. I mean if he's if he's still their first line center, you know, or maybe he's number two playing behind John Tavares, but you know, I just having fun. But you know, and he scores

28 goals and puts up points and plays, you know, he's not getting filled in defensively. I mean, that's still really valuable. It's just, it's hard to put a price on exactly what that is. You know, probably the solution is a bit what they did with Marsha. So, where, you know, obviously we had the great platform

the year last year in Florida. He was on the way clearly to doing that again this year, and they signed him to probably below market, but they gave him more, you know, a bit like the Arvinson example. They gave him more term than someone like that ever could have imagined when he was, like, toiling in the HL and just never getting any respect. So, you know, that might be the way to go with Carlson. I don't know how strong he and his agent are if they want to really push it.

But, you know, if he believes in himself, sign a one-year dealer, go to Arb. and then do anything like that again, and he's getting big money next year. It's really is an amazing story, because I remember he was a Ducks prospect at the time, and I believe he was like a second round pick. And you got taken in the same draft,

they got Rakel, Gibson, and Josh Manson, and their earliest pick, and that draft was 30th. I just recently was looking this up. The Ducks are at the point where I'd give them the benefit of doubt now. I'm not a huge prospect guy by any means, but if they're taking a guy,

especially in that, like, second and third round range, it seems like they have that locked down to a science at this point. I'm like, this guy's probably going to be pretty good. Right. And then I heard a story. The Ducks felt like they were close

to getting Carlson back before this season. I think that, you know, when they started running into that injury trouble through training camp and after the summer, I believe there were some discussions there on Carlson.

And from the Ducks end of things, anyway, they thought that they had a shot to get them back. I mean, obviously they didn't see this season coming either. But they did still like the player and, you know, obviously the minute he's piece,

started playing as a golden night. Now he's not getting traded. Well, it's, it's curious how those things work. Because if I'm, if I remember correctly, he was traded for like James Wisniewski as a rental or something one year. Exactly right. And it was just like, the ducks had such a deep prospect pipeline that it was easy to pass that off. And especially as a contender, it's like, okay, this is the type of move you have to make. But yeah, then he goes to Columbus. And I don't think anyone really batted an eye when Vegas took him, especially when Columbus was protecting guys like Eunice Corpusalo and I guess Josh Anderson is.

had a good ear himself, but he hadn't really shown anything to suggest that even, like, I think if he had 20 goals a season, it would be a, that would have been a story. A massive success for Vegas. That's why this is like an atom bomb going off. But so I do wonder, like, what is a reasonable expectation for him moving forward? Because you watch some of these plays, and I feel like, you know, you can get into trouble trying to justify high shooting percentages and say, this guy gets great chances all the time. And we know that eventually it's going to come back to bite you.

Usually only the best of the best to sustain them. But you watch some of these chances he's getting in. I guess that's the more interesting question here. It's like what's driving the shooting percentage and can you maintain getting those chances time and time again? But it feels like every time I'm tuning over to a Vegas game, he's like got a shorthanded breakaway. I mean, that goal he scored on Martin Jones was one of the few times

where that move has been actually justified as like a practical measure because Martin Jones was going to poach it if he didn't pull it off at the right time. It wasn't just style. Oh, man. Yeah, I was watching. I was like sitting at home. And I'm still adjusted and being on the East Coast time

because I'm watching that late game and it's like 1 a.m. Saturday night and I'm just sitting at home and I'm just like, oh my God, I have goosebumps. This is incredible. And so, yeah, I mean... What happens if he shoots 6% next year or something? Which isn't, you know, we've seen some guys do that.

Well, that's the thing. I mean, he's gotten decent volume this year. So, you know, even if he came back to, like, league average, I think he'd still be on pace for, like, low 20s and goals. Right. Which is still perfectly fine. And I think that's probably where we're going to wind up with him

in terms of where he's going to be moving forward and what he's going to get paid. Like I can't imagine that Vegas, even though they have so much money to operate with and they're seeing him up close this season, like you can't pay him as a 40-goal score. I mean, there's like five guys in the league who are that kind of money. Right. And in fact, you know, they might look at it and say, here's a one-year deal at good money, but prove it again. And if you do it again, then we'll pay you, like, not necessarily 40, but if you score 30,

then we'll, you know, give you more benefit of the doubt. I mean, that's a reasonable tack to take. I mean, first of all, you keep your player motivated and you don't necessarily make a decision you're going to regret. Yeah, I wonder how much players are going to whizen up to this. I think back to the Nazim-Cadry contract where he had a season where he actually generated, I still believe it's his most amount of shots. He shot something like 5% or 6%.

Yeah. Signs a six-year extension and a little more than four or four-and-half, whatever, and he scored 30 years, 30 goals and back-to-back years since. I mean, players got to watch this stuff too because I think a lot of, of players know it intuitively, but, you know, I'm sure the big agents are on this, but, you know, maybe some of the smaller agents got to be aware of it, too, when they go into those negotiations. Yeah, no, definitely. Okay, let's wrap up this podcast by kind of taking a step back and looking at the league from

a bigger picture. Are you going to be doing like a March Madness-style bracket? I know that, like, my editor, for example, wants me to fill out the bracket on NHL.com or whatever. I haven't been asked to, but I'm game for it. Yeah, it's kind of fun. I mean, obviously, like, you get this stuff horribly wrong. me last year I had Boston breezing by Ottawa and that clearly did not work out.

Which is what makes the playoffs fun. Does you have Pittsburgh and double overtime of game seven of the Eastern Conference Final versus the Sands? I'm glad you asked. I did, yeah. I'm not against the senators, but against someone else. Yeah, I think this year's going to be a really tough exercise in terms of picking teams because as rational as I try to be about this stuff and calculated, there's like balancing your head versus your heart sort of thing. And it's like, how do you deal with some of, some of these teams that haven't been able to

get over these hurdles in past years and sort of erasing that failure from your memory? Like, I'm sure for them themselves, it must be a challenge. But for us as analysts, whether it's a team like Minnesota or Washington or Columbus, if they have to face Pittsburgh in round one, like, there's a rational society that says, this team's playing better right now. And I really think they could make it to the second, third round, whatever. and then it's like, do I really want to go through the same mistake over and over again? Well, and there's an element of playoffs of something like momentum or getting hot.

I think if a team, like to me, Vegas even, like that first game, I actually think is important for them because if they get out, obviously the crowd's going to be amazing, it's been part of their story all year, and they play well in that first game, and they get a win, and the excitement continues. But the minute, it's amazing how quickly a bit of doubt can get introduced. And if they lose 4-1 in the first game on home ice, you just start to feel it a bit. And I do think that that plays into a series because it's just such a short amount of time. And those teams that have a psychological advantage, I mean, Pittsburgh, Washington is a classic example. I mean, it just feels like Pittsburgh is preordained to win those series.

I mean, you look back at last year's series, I mean, Pittsburgh should probably not have won that series and it's Washington. And I think that's why it left such a big hole in the heart of the capitals. Like, you know, there's guys there two months into the season saying they're still getting. getting over that loss just because you start to wonder if it's you like if there's something beyond just playing hockey you're not doing right the emotions of the playoffs you know factor in you know in addition to just which team can keep the with the puck away from the other team more yeah um I think we're going to get a new sort of a new rise of new teams this year I mean I guess Nashville would would count as one that was there in it last year and obviously they got great chances to get back to the Stanley Cup again and you know, maybe even win it this time. But you could also have, like, I wouldn't be surprised of Winnipeg when on, like, this run, it's not out of nowhere. Obviously, we see the talent they've been amassing,

but no previous playoff success. And then right out of the gate, I mean, it's a bit like Chicago. The first year they made the playoffs with Canaan Taves, they went to the conference final. I mean, that would not surprise me in the least. And, you know, it would be an interesting dynamic to, you know, have one of these teams that's an up-and-comer really exert themselves and announce that they're on the stage now.

And you're one of the few people in the world that you were talking about us on Puck Talks that would rather go to Winnipeg than Nashville. I don't know if I said it exactly like that. I definitely said I love going to Winnipeg to cover hockey, though. And, you know, it's such, to me it's like, you know, growing up in Ontario, not in Toronto, but I grew up in a small town here. It's like, it's sort of all the stereotypes about what Canada is

is actually what Winnipeg is. Like, it's actually really cold there when you go there a huge percentage of the time in the winter. And actually it feels like everybody in the town is watching the jets and paying attention to hockey. I'm sure there's a small minority that aren't, but you tune into the local sports radio stations and that they're talking hockey like 98% of the time.

And obviously being someone who likes Canada and likes hockey, I just, I like the vibe there. And the building's always great. I've been there. I actually once once there for a Panthers, Jets game and like a lost season for both teams in February. And it was like still buzzing in its own way. So I just think it's a place where people really love the sport.

People want to talk about it. There's an energy around it. and now they have one of the most exciting teams in the league. I mean, I think that the playoffs there could be electric. I mean, everyone went crazy for how the city of Nashville embraced the predators. I have no doubt if the Jets get to the Stanley Cup. I mean, it'll be everybody will be on the streets. It's going to be awesome.

And, you know, I'm not to say they're going to the Cup. We'll see it because that second round, that's going to be Titanic if Nashville Winnipeg meet the way it looks like they're going to. I mean, they could be, you know, there's going to be upsets and it might not necessarily work out like this. like it looks like it could be on paper, but just in terms of home crowds in Winnipeg series moving forward, like they could potentially have that first round matchup against Minnesota, and there's going to be an awesome sort of geographical rivalry there.

Then second round against Nashville, we obviously saw how Nashville's home crowd is last year. And then the third round, if they potentially face Vegas or something like that, like it's like every Winnipeg game is going to be just must watch in terms of just crazy home atmospheres wherever they're playing, and that's going to be fascinating to watch. The attendance record at work in Winnipeg is going to be really bad if that all manifests itself. And this team's really good. Like I don't, they could get tripped up easily. We've seen how the playoffs work.

But it's hard to find, especially if they're going to be healthy. And it looks like Truba is going to be back and good to go now. And Mark Sheafley, knock on wood, if he can stay healthy, he's had a bit of a rough year in terms of leaving games with Knicks and Bruises. But up and down, I mean, very few flaws. I'm fascinated for sort of moving forward. You know, we constantly hear how Winnipeg is one of those places where I think most players don't agree with your take that they love going to Winnipeg to watch hockey or play hockey.

I know the sharks got in some trouble. Maybe they'll face the sharks in the Western Conference final. There we go. That's a good story. But, you know, we saw this year with Paul Stazni, for example. He waives as no trade to go play there. And I think if this team keeps going down this path, I mean, there's just so much young, exciting talent there.

like why wouldn't you want to go play with Nick Eler's and Patrick Kleinney? Like that seems like a pretty fun gig. I understand that certain players have different priorities, but if they, this is a big year for them because moving forward, if they can prove that, you know, they're here to stay and they're actually going to be this team moving forward,

like that's going to open up whole new possibilities for them as well. Well, especially because so many of their key players they've drafted. I mean, so guys that have grown up in the organization and, you know, I would assume most of them are endeared to it and like it and have come to see maybe it's not as bad as,

what the reputation might suggest in some places. And I don't see any reason why not. I mean, the only issue they're going to run into, I think, is cap space. I mean, depending on what they do, I mean, the Brian Little contract extension, to me, it's not that it's a mistake. I think Brian Little is a pretty useful player, but it's going to create, there'll be a ripple effect there. And, you know, I think that Blake Wheeler will be tough.

I mean, there's always ways around these things, but it probably means trading someone away. I mean, they're not that far off from what the Blackhawks had to do, whether they win the cup or not, in terms of maybe getting rid of players they like, just to make it all fit. So, you know, that might, you know, just the cap issues might keep them out of the free agent market. But, you know, Paul Sassany, going there,

wearing Thomas Steen's number in honor of his buddy Alex Dean, one of his best buddies, like I think that they're shedding some of that now. And certainly, if it is a bit of a coming out party in terms of the way the fans are perceived even more, you know, if the playoff run can help, right? Yeah.

Like, Nashville was, I remember, Nashville wasn't always viewed, is like this sexy location. Now, it's amazing what winning and doing so in an exciting manner can do in terms of. I mean,

what is at a top five NHL city now, I think, in people's minds? You know, I was at a game there about two weeks ago. The Leafs played there. Like, it felt like the whole,

everyone who goes on one road trip a year, what on that road trip, because, you know, Nashville is such a fun place off, you know, away from the arena too. But, you know, you can change those perspectives

by winning. I mean, winning, I think, changes everything. And the Jets are a team that's, built to win now and going forward if they're managed properly. Now here's a question. And this has nothing to do with on ice performance, but just in terms of

like as a media member, I think something Nashville has done so well. And they kind of get the luxury of doing so, I guess, because it is technically a non-traditional hockey market. So maybe they just want people to be talking about them and writing about them and doing podcasts about them. So they like actually give some pretty amazing access and have fun with it and don't take this stuff too seriously, whereas in some Canadian markets, you see that, you know, there's just so much attention and so many cameras on all the time that they really restrict access to players or what they allow them to do or say. And I don't know, do you see that changing at all any time soon? Or do you think, like, just the power dynamic there is just so crazy here in Canada that it's just never,

like, a team's never going to be able to really get away with what Nashville gets away with, unfortunately, just because of the logistics of it. I honestly see it changing in Nashville before I see changing in Canada. Like I see if the Predators win, it'll probably get more buttoned up. You know, that's what happened in Chicago, frankly, is the Blackhawks, you know, because prior to Cain and Taves arriving on the scene,

like they were not showing on local TV and all those stories and no one went to games. And so when that team first started to get good and they were young, they let every player do everything. Everything was behind the scenes. And the minute they got good and, you know, they got a lot more serious.

And I think that that's probably what will happen in Nashville. And I don't see a changing game. I mean, I'd like to tell you it's going to. But these guys, there's just too much at stake. And I think that, I mean, we take the game so seriously here. I mean, it's one of the good things, but it's also a little much. Sometimes you take a step back and you're like, oh, we're probably being a big of these years. I mean, it's literally given me my career.

So I want to be careful about, you know, being too negative about it. Because the fact that people care. as much as they do allows us to make a living. And I don't take that for granted. But I think at some points we do some of it. Like just watch the way the stories are presented with a clear mind sometimes. That includes ones I do. I'm not saying I'm immune from this.

But sometimes you get in the moment and you get caught up in certain things going on and we act like it's a matter of life or death. And I think that's one thing in places where it is more non-traditional, you know, where the sport is just viewed more as a fun thing. I think that's my takeaway from Nashville. Like, it's just a fun place to go to the arena and watch a game. Yep. Like, I would recommend it literally to anybody, even if you're not that big a fan.

Like, I don't see, you're in that arena, you just smile. Like, the music, they really have the right attitude about how they present their game ops. I've heard that about Vegas, too. I haven't actually been to a game yet. But, like, everyone just said the game ops there are just amazing. Well, I mean, you're paying for three hours to just sort of whatever is going on in your life. You kind of put that to the side. just go and you're entertained.

And that's what this is all about at the end of the day. It's not. So if the rubber bounces the wrong way on ice and the local team loses, it might not be a matter of life and death. Yeah, which is, I think, I guess it's easier said than done for people like, they had a car out front of the building in the cup final that you could pay to smash it. Like, which it's like absurd, but it was hilarious, right? And then you get like I'll hear of Briss Gallup jumping on the roof and smashing it.

It was just, I don't know, it's just fun. I will say even before, you know, obviously having a long play out front and making it at a cup finals definitely provides more national attention and gets people to wise up to what's going on. But I remember I went to a game, I believe it was in like December last season. Right. And it was like a random Tuesday night game against Colorado who was in the midst of historically bad seasons. There was no real reason to care that much. I think McKinnon was even out of the lineup.

And I just had so much, like, I just went as a fan and I had a couple beers and I was just sitting in the stands. And it was just so fun. And, you know, the other team gives up a goal, and everyone is just letting the other goalie hear it. And it's one of the few times where I believe, like, if I was that goalie, I would actually be mentally affected by that, as opposed to a lot of stadiums. They just chant to the goalie's name.

And it's like, if anything, that would pump me up. She doesn't really work that well. Yeah, no, that wouldn't scare me at all. But they're like saying, like, it's all your fault. It's all your. And it's like, oh, man, that would get to me. I'd be like, damn, I really did mess up. How about the let it be thing, too,

when they're doing the goalie interference. challenges and stuff. I mean, it's great. And you know, I think the real coming out party nationally was the All-Star game. Yeah. You know, it just happens. Maybe the John Scott story actually made the All-Star game even more relevant when it was in Nashville than it is in a lot of places. But, I mean, anyway, it's without question of top five NHL City. I don't know if Winnipeg will get there, but who knows? Let's see what the Spring break. Yeah, so I was going to say, do you think I guess Winnipeg and Vegas are the two sort of examples? of like markets or stories that could develop like that if they go on a long playoff

or make it through the Western Carmen's final or the final where everyone's like oh this is such an I mean I guess I think people know that Winnipeg is an awesome place to play a hockey right like yeah even in that series where they got swept by the ducks like just before the game everyone's standing chanting the entire time like it's awesome but it is sort of like from what I've heard like Patrick Linae can't really go out in Winnipeg yeah like you can't just go get a coffee at the local shop and not expect to make a scene. Whereas, like, if you play in 27 cities in this league,

including Toronto, I should add. I mean, maybe different for Austin Matthews and Mitch Marner, but if you're the third pairing D, I think you can walk around a city pretty unobstructed and even a lot of Canadian cities, but Winnipeg strikes me as one of the places where, you know, and you just have to get comfortable with that. Right. And that's not for everybody.

I'm not sure that would be for me. It's true. I mean, it's just because it's weird. I'm sure at the start would be kind of cool. You're like, oh, I'm super popular a fan. And then I mentioned, I just want to be left alone for a couple days. Maybe you want to go get your latte and just like it and get out. Yeah. Okay, is there anything else that we need to hit while we're here?

I mean, no, I'm pumped for the playoffs. Yeah. It's been a weird. We got a change in a playoff format topic for another PDO cast, but like we have to change this because this season I felt like the end has been anti-climactic across the board. So few games it matter. I mean, there's a handful every night or every couple nights. But, I mean, we haven't had races. I think that they got to go back to one day.

at minimum. And I think they will. Someone did posit the idea to me, and I'm not necessarily saying it's right or wrong, but I think everyone would agree that the first round is the best part of the playoffs, just in terms of like the volume of games and every night there's three or four on and it just something's happening all the time. And it's like they get shut out of a rocket after watching what we're watching right now these last few days of the season.

So I guess there is the argument to be said that like you want, especially guys are presumably healthier now that they're going to be in the conference final after they've been playing an extra couple weeks of even more intense hockey and getting banged up. So, like, there is the argument that it's actually good to have the top teams playing each other early on because this is when the most eyeballs are on the product and it's going to be played at the highest level. I see what you're doing here. But I don't know. I see that argument.

I also see the argument of... You probably support fairness too. You want the two best teams playing when it matters most. And also, if we're going to have an 82 game regular season, it feels like you should be a real. awarded for being very good for 82 games and getting an easier draw than what some of these teams are going to have like the Toronto is going to have to go through or Winnipeg and Nashville playing in round two whereas the Pacific Division might be in Pittsburgh last year after fourth overall season yes yeah and we were talking about this to our credit we were talking about this last year

it's not just because Toronto is the one getting shafted this year we were like people were talking about this last year in the year before and well didn't you have one two and four overall I think in the metro last year yep with Toronto Tampa Boston it's going to be somewhere like one, three, and six, could be even seven. You know, it's not quite as egregious, but I don't,

I don't like the way it feels. Is there, is there a, is there a first round series, um, that you're going to have, other than the Leafs, because you're going to be covering that.

Is there a one that you're going to be, Win a Peg Minnesota. One of a big, a really good one. Just because the regional rivalry and the Jets having basically never won a playoff game and since, since we didn't exist or

since we were kids and, you know, the whiteout phenomenon. And, you know, I think that that, and even the wild side of things, I mean, they played pretty well. I mean, the suitor injury is going to hurt, and we'll see if Spurgeon's truly back. But I think that series holds some appeal. Also, anything can happen. I mean, there's going to be one series where we expected to decidedly go one way and it could go the other way.

And that usually gets fun, the sort of Cinderella element. Yeah, I was going to say, we're not talking about Minnesota enough. I've gotten some criticism for that online where people are like, oh, you're not talking about them enough. And here we are talking about how we're excited for a Minnesota Winnipeg series, and we're completely ignoring the other side of the equation. But you're right, the suitor injury kind of throws a monkey wrench. And otherwise, I would have said that...

Reborn Eric Stahl, man. Yeah, and to Minnesota's credit, they haven't gotten enough attention for it, but they're kind of sputtering out of the gates there early on, and they're really right at the ship this season. And, yeah, I mean, that's another story in and of itself. Like, can they finally get over the hump? kind of Bruce Boudreau team in advance in the playoffs? Like it's,

what does it take for Chuck Fletcher to get a contract extension? Yeah, I'm sure. There could be big changes coming, basically, if something doesn't change this spring. Yeah. You know what? I'm going to say the,

my answer is whoever Vegas winds up playing, especially if it's a team like Anaheim, for example. I'm really curious. No one wants Anaheim. I don't think. You mean to play them? Yeah.

I think that's a really tough first round matchup. Oh, brutal, especially if they're going to be healthy like that. this. I mean, yeah, going up against playoff, Ryan Getslap, and we'll see it with John Gibson's health, but the way he's playing, like, they're a scary out, and I think from an X's nose perspective, that is such a fascinating

matchup because... Like, you're leaving with bruises even if you win that series. Yeah, of course. And Vegas wants to play such a different way. So I'm very curious to see if, you know, we hear how playoff hockey slows down and gets more physical and you have to play a certain brand of hockey to win, and that's going to be a very good test of that

theory because they play such different opposing styles. So So yeah, I think you can't go wrong in the first round. I'm really excited. And I'm glad we made it here. We talked for like 75 minutes, which is pretty good considering. We sat down and we're like, we didn't have any topics to discuss. But we pulled through.

We made it work. We're constantly professionals. You get talking about hockey? I could go all day. All right, CJ. Thanks for coming on the podcast. And we'll definitely have you back on. Thank you.

The Hockey PDO cast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Filippovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash HockeyPedioCast.