The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 230: Sent into Exile

Episode Date: April 5, 2018

Justin Bourne joins the show to discuss a variety of topics, most notably including: 1:00 Brad Marchand and supplemental discipline  13:45 Outside the box ideas to improve the product 19:20 Evaluating coaches, Doug Weight, and the Islanders 34:20 Peter Chiarelli, the Oilers, and the MVP discussion 44:10 The toll of rebuilding 52:00 The most lethal shots in the game 59:00 Claude Giroux Sponsoring today’s show is SeatGeek, which is making it easier than ever before to buy and sell sports and concert tickets. They’re giving our listeners a $20 rebate off of their first purchase. All you have to do is download the free SeatGeek app and enter the promo code PDO to get started. Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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My name is Dimitri Philpovich. and sitting across from me is my good buddy, Justin Bourne. Justin, what's going on, man? We're in person. This is fantastic. It's so much better than the Skype. Being here in Toronto, that's one of my favorite parts is there's so many cool people to talk to and so many, especially when it comes to the hockey grind.

And we're just sitting here in your living room holding these fancy handheld mics and we're going to talk for, I don't know, 40 minutes, 45 an hour, whatever. We'll see how it goes. Whatever, man. I'm actually fascinated by the concept you mentioned to me earlier, the phrase the car wash. and you're just up here talking to everyone who would talk to you, really. Oh, man, I'm taking, I'm, I'm, I'm milking it. I came here last week.

I've done the Steve Dangle podcast. I was on Puck Talks with you and Chris Johnston. I've had a few podcasts on my own. I was on TV. I'm doing, I'm doing everything. This is it, man. This is the Blitz. Well, really it comes down to it.

If it's this important for your career and it's going this well, when are you joining us in Toronto? Soon. I think next season I'll be here. You're going to do it? Yeah, I think so. Oh, fantastic. Yeah, I'm reporting it. Breaking news.

I've got a room to rent if you'd like to join me. It's very expensive here. Yes. We'll talk. We'll talk off air. So let's set some ground rules here. You and I had an adult beverage before we started recording. That's fair.

And we did a little sort of what do we want to talk about? What do we want to get into? And there's a couple topics that I've covered so much on the show and every other platform I've been on. And it's who are the Leafs better off? the Lightning or the Bruins and, you know, what's going on with the MVP race? Should it actually be most outstanding player? Is it Connor McDavid? Is it Nathan McKinnon?

And we're not going to get into those. You know, if we naturally kind of broach the subject, we'll try to kind of finesse around it. But we're not going to, we're not going to devote any substantial amount of time on this particular show to that. We're going to try to fill these airwaves with some other new innovative stuff. And, you know, I did a podcast with Chris Johnson yesterday, and we were fortunate enough to have the sort of breaking news of the Cidines. So that kind of gave us something to talk about. And the other topic I really wanted to get into was Brad Marchand. And I decided to, I told Chris, Chris, I value your opinion. But unfortunately, for the sake of content, we're going to have to stay away from this because I want to talk about this is Justin since I knew we were recording. And, you know, as a former player, you can sort of speak to this more. And I'm just fascinated by this idea because of, of his career arc as a whole, you know, if you look back to like even 2011 when the Bruns were in Stanley Cup final or 2013, he was like a valuable contributor on that team. But he was always kind of profiled more as a third line, grinder, pest type that would just irritate you and draw penalties and always muck it up and score the occasional goal, which is what made him even more effective. But he would never necessarily be a foundational superstar type of player. And now we look at him. I mean, you know, he's either second or third in points per game over the past couple years. He's. second or third in goals per game over the past three or four. Like, it's any way you slice it,

he's been one of the most effective offensive producers in the league. And yet he allows it. And he forces us to, whenever we talk about Brad Marshang, there's always, he's still up to his old shenanigans. And I think it's kind of just, it's frustrating.

Just from the perspective of, like, instead of appreciating the skill and what he's capable of, we have to talk about all these other shenanigans and whether he should be suspended or what should be, how the league should take action. And I don't know, like, I understand there's a fine line between getting yourself going and you have to play a certain way to be effective. But he's sort of transcended that. I feel like yet he keeps stooping lower to these levels.

And I'm not trying to act colder than thou or judge him by any means. It just, I don't know, like, is this necessary for him to be effective? No, and that's, you know, it's almost like he can't turn it off. Like, you know, I think back to some of the guys I played with, I played with Michael Haley, who plays for Florida right now. now. And you could see in practice and in games, like, he's a skilled guy. Like, he's got some nice hands. I think his first goal in the NHL was a real beauty against the Islanders. I forget who was. Anyway, but, you know, he can play. And at the same time, he can't play at a level where he's in the NHL if he doesn't punch guys in the face. So that's sort of the

prerequisite. Yes, you're good enough to play when you're not punching guys, but also we need you to punch guys. Marshawn kind of was that early on, minus the actual physical fighting, but he antagonized and he drew penalties and, you know, he could play, but he also brought another value, some value add to his game. But you're right, we're at the point now. And not recently, like we've been at the point for a while where this guy is so clearly a superstar. He's a superstar. And it's like, it's just unbelievable to me that he can't turn this off that, you know, the lunge, the one he got suspended for this year. The, Marcus Johansson, yeah. Yeah. He just stuck out his elbow and just dove at him. Like, it's almost like he had.

this like psychopathic criminal urge like it's like that was so unnecessary on a play he's just go into the net to make a play and you wonder what sort of chip this guy has on his shoulder how upset is he about the size of his nose that he has to continue being violent how much was he bullied or the champions that's that's that's a tough one wait is an a in champions yeah no he did yeah after they beat the conox in 2011 he got a tattoo on i don't know if it's on his ribs or it's someone his horseback he probably wrote it out and said here's how you're yeah it's with an a yeah I don't know if he's gotten a fixed yet or not, but that's pretty, I hope not. But yeah, like, how badly was this guy bullied that, you know, he can't seem to let this urge go?

And not to mention just not hurting people and being above it. Like, why doesn't he want to be done with it? Like, he has to talk about it in the media. He has to pay fines. He has to, you know, sit out games. I just, it's really surprising that he just can't let this go. Yeah, it's remarkable to me because I really, like I mentioned, I didn't see this coming. And how when you watch him play, I mean, he's just, he's, he's,

So he has so much puck skill, and especially around the net, like in tight spaces. And he's just like effortlessly roofing it when he's like right there in front of the goalie. And he just has no fear. Like he takes it across the crease and he's credible. I don't know what the total is right now. But like, you know, I think like the idea of game winning goals is overrated. But like if you look at his just OT record this year, like he's won like five or six or whatever games for them single handedly with these just amazing act of dominance and brilliance with a puck. And then you have to just get into this topic.

of like, why is he lunging a guy with his elbow? Why is he cross-checking someone who's on the ground right in the face? Why is any of this happening? And I don't know, like, you know,

when this happened when the league levied, the fine of $5,000, which I understand is the maximum that they can do under the current CBA, which is pathetic. Which is pathetic. And I understand,

if you're going to find him, there's only so much you can do because it's been agreed upon in the Constitution. But, you know, A, that's for a guy who's made as much money as he has and already lost as much money

and fines as he has, that's clearly not going to do anything to stop him. And the other thing is just like I just you know it's a topic that we've all gone on over and over again. I understand the league is in a tough spot because some of this stuff is so subjective and there's so many factors to consider. But it really does feel like whenever the league is involved here in these fines or suspensions, it's pretty much never not. Like it's never enough. Just because the whole point of the suspension is in theory to reprimand the person to a point where he will be corrected and stop.

doing so and we we rarely ever see that actually happen yeah there was a there's a phase there you know the the shanaban era where they really ratcheted things up you know used to be guys to get one two three games for the most violent acts and then you know we saw a couple 20 game and 25 game suspensions and uh i think it's pretty safe to say that i think suspensions are down i you know that's i haven't actually looked at the numbers but i'm pretty sure um that there's a lot less suspensions and we're not talking about these moments as often as we used to. There were a couple of years there. It was the heart of the discussion almost every day.

But you're right. It's not enough to be a deterrent for someone like Brad Marchand who's made as much money as he has. It's just, again, as we said, it's unfortunate. We even have to talk about money being the deterrent. Like that's, you know, go, you know, lead the league in points and not hurt people. Is that not good enough? But yeah, it's definitely not enough for him.

Just go be. really good at your job and don't try to assault people. It's not even like he's playing on the edge. You talk about playing on the edge and it's like, oh, well, you know, you run at a guy really hard and it's like, ah, a shoulder came up a little or maybe he left his feet a little bit. Like, he's going out of his way to take cheap shots at guys. I'm a big fan of the guy as a player, but it's tough to respect some of the stuff he does outside of the actual hockey game. Yeah, I'm trying to think of like comparisons here or like from the past. I mean, I know that, um, people often get on Evgeny Malkin, for example, of like a guy who's incredibly skilled,

but he has these just instances where he seems to lose his mind and he just does something that's kind of over the top. One of mine growing up was Shane Dohn, and I never really understood why people, like, it just seemed like media loved him. So it's like whenever he would do something dirty and very borderline, everyone would be like, oh, Shane Dohn just loves the game. He just, he's so intense. And it's like, no, that was dirty.

He's like the last guy. Well, for one, he's like your prototypical Awshucks Canadian, like, you know, tuck your thumbs. They don't make men like him anymore. That's like, you know, that's how hockey used to be played. And I think a lot of media, you know, who would be older, would sort of connect with that era and that style of play. So I think that's part of it. The Ashok's, you know, humbleness was endless with that guy, you know, to the point where you wonder if he's smart. I don't know.

Just the gosh darn it. However, yeah. There definitely was a time there where was a time there where he'd cross the line periodically and the media sort of went out of their way to be like, ah, I looked all right to me. Part of that to me is just the game changing. You know,

you sort of, I think when you came into media was around the time, the game was starting to move away from that, you know, violence is awesome. And it's been sort of a rocky transition, I think, for a lot of media members who missed that and knew that

and are worried that the current game is not one that they're going to know as well. So I think part of it is I think the landscape of hockey has changed drastically over the past six, seven years. So obviously this doesn't necessarily apply to Marshaun because of, you know, the on-ice value he actually brings in how good he is and how much he moves the needle for the ruins offensively. But, you know, when you see something like just spinning and just talking on the subject of, you know, physical violence and aggression and playing on the edge and sort of the punishments involved with the discipline, like, you know, I remember. remember earlier in the year when Zach Rinaldo went after, it was Samuel Gerard, I believe he went after. And this topic came up of like how much of that at this point is on the player versus how much of that is on the team. Like when you're when you have a guy like that in the lineup that has the track record, like, you know, the team rarely ever gets punished or fined or loses a draft pick or anything. And I don't know, I don't know what the right answer is, but it seems like there's definitely a lack of accountability for like if you know exactly who at the.

type of player is and what he's out there to do and you allow it to happen. You put him in the lineup. You can't plead ignorance and you can't be like, oh, I can't believe he had this act of temporary insanity. It's like, no, he's made a career out of doing this sort of thing. Yeah, I know I've talked to some people at the NHL and there's sort of three or four people who they know on any given night, you know, Radco Gudis, you've lost the benefit of the doubt, you know, that sort of thing. I think there was an era here where the type of player who would commit those sort of acts was a thug and not a hockey player. And, you know, they're sitting on the bench and they're playing seven minutes and then

they go out and they do their violent thing and then they get suspended and we all move on. Those guys, obviously, you'd like to see teams face some, some punishment for having in their lineup because it's clear. You know, the guy hasn't scored a point. He hasn't done anything, whatever. You know, when you have guys that, you know, the punishment to those teams at the time was that when you put those guys out, you were getting filled in. You're not going to be winning the hockey game.

You've wasted a roster spot. That's your punishment. You know, now it's a matter of dealing with the guys who can play and still do that stuff because it's really hard to say, you know, Marchand would easily fit the bill as one of these repeat offenders, but he can play. And, you know, I think to Alex Burroughs back when he was good, you know, I could play, but he did a lot of dumb shit. And I don't know if I can swear on this podcast, I apologize for that.

If you can, well, we'll edit it out. Don't worry about it. But yeah, he did a lot of dumb stuff. So, you know, those guys, it's tough to find the team when they're saying, look, we're hiring a 30 goal score or, you know, contributor. But he still does this dumb stuff. Yeah. Yeah. No.

So I'm all for kind of progressive, outside the box, innovative ideas to better the product and change the game. Or even if nothing actually comes of it, just thinking of ideas and just kind of you and I sitting right here in your living room just bouncing. ideas back and forth. And I know I was reading Elliot Friedman's 31 thoughts either last week or the week before. And he had this section of sort of, I forget who it was, but they were raising the question of like healthy scratches and sort of this idea. Awesome. Awesome idea. It fleshed that out for people who haven't heard that. Well, so basically the gist of it, like I'm paraphrasing was, you know, why are you paying this guy to just sit in your press box? Why can't we just, if he's on your roster and you're paying his salary, like you sort of have the, like a more

like a baseball team. Yeah. Or like a soccer style, like, substitution system where, like, he can be on your bench and you can play him. But as soon as you take him out of the game or whatever, you can't reuse them. And I don't know. I think basically you have three injuries. You can call your guy down from the press box and say, hey, suit up. You know, we're paying you anyway. It's come play for the team.

So now I wonder if that would ultimately be like a net positive. Like, would teams be using that for bettering their lineup? Or would they, if you gave teams three extra spots to use, would it be some of a guy in case? the game just gets completely out of hand. Like I know the game has progressed and sort of gotten a lot of that out of it, but if you gave teams three more guys who didn't necessarily have to play, because most teams like have someone, whether it's in the HL or what, like on their,

in their organization that could fill that type of role still. Yeah, you would have to have it set. So there would be some severe punishment to the team. Like if you call a guy out of the press box and he gets in a fight. All he does is just fight. You just, you know, your team, you know, your team, you know, know, whatever the fine is, or maybe you lose the ability, lose a substitution, or that guy can't be substituted ever again, or, you know, some sort of preventative policy there, because, you know,

I think it's a really neat idea, you know, let's say your team's up three nothing, and you've got, you know, two good defensemen sitting in the press box and offensive players on your team, you say, all right, we're going to tag these guys in, tag out our offensive players and sit in this lead or vice versa, we're down three, you know, call up cap and levo, whoever out of the press box were taken out a couple of, you know, whoever you figure, you know, Kormorov and Placannick or whatever. So I think it's a terrific idea. And I think it also would be great for fans.

Like you could, you know, it's like WWF like, is that, you know, is that Josh Livo's music? Good God, that's Martin. You know, I think it'd be great. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just from like a hockey nerd perspective of like the X's and O's and strategy and stuff like that, it would provide so many different options. You're right.

If you're sitting on a lead or if you need to desperately score a couple goals, I'm all for it. I love stuff like that. I think hockey, it's getting better and it's getting more progressive. And if you look back where we were 10 years ago or whatever, it's gotten much better. But if you kind of look around other sports, it's still lacking a little bit. And I'm all for even if we don't execute any of the ideas, just the fact we're having a discussion is probably a net positive. You know, I don't necessarily feel comfortable going into their exact details.

but Sheldon Keefe and Kyle Dubas, you know, they're both progressive thinkers. And there's, you know, basically not a day go by where they didn't propose to change some of the rules. And, you know, some of the ideas, you know, it sounds outlandish. And then you talk about it for a bit and you go, huh. And one of those was no face-offs. You know, the idea of just completely eliminating face-offs and, you know, almost soccer style. You know, you would have to and puck was at a play. Yeah.

There would have to be some exceptions, but just, you know, you can't freeze the puck or it's a penalty. the real details of it, it takes them going into, but I'm with you. I love the progressive ideas, and I think the NHL is probably the last league willing to make any of those changes. Unfortunately. Okay, let's take a quick break here. Our listeners are going to hear from a sponsor. You and I are going to wait a few seconds, and then we're going to get back into a discussion. I solicited some questions from our Twitter followers, and we've got some good stuff coming in, so we're going to get into that.

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Okay, so here's a good one. It is from Jim Capscup. And he is asking who's the most underrated coach in the league right now? And, you know, he mentions John Tortorella and Mike Sullivan. I'm not sure I'd go with either of those two for different reasons. But I think the reason why I brought that up as an interesting question is I want to get into it with you in terms of, you know, with your past having work for a team and being a video coach. Is that a fair? Yep.

And I know you wrote recently about sort of how a coach can sort of prepare his team and his players for the playoffs. And I'm always fascinated by what the actual job description of a coach is in the NHL. Because you know, you often hear about Mike Babcock, he even will say himself that what he views as the most important part of the job is keeping guys motivated or ready to go and ready to play at all times. And then obviously you have the idea of strategic adjustments or X's and O's. And I'm sure all of that goes into it into some sort of a recipe. But when you look at the coaches in the league, what are you, like, what do you, how do you evaluate them and what do you value from seeing? Like, if you see a team playing a certain way, are you like, oh, like that coach

seems to be doing a really good job? And is it something we can even fairly do? Because a lot of it seems to happen behind the scenes. Yeah. You know, the honest answer and not the one that makes for the best. best answer on a podcast is that I don't think we can fairly evaluate coaches, which is really too bad. There are exceptions, and to me, it's like most things. On the extreme ends, you can usually have a pretty good idea that the guy is doing a bad job or a good job. In the middle,

you know, in sort of the middle 15 teams or 20 teams, it's really tough to say, you know, what's going on behind the scenes or how well they're doing. But, you know, you and I talked a little bit at the pub here before we did the show about... We should have just recorded that. We were like, that was part of the best part. Really just natural and free-flowing. Yes. You know, the Islanders are...

We can unequivocally say that they're not being well-coached right now. And I'm, you know, I'm an Islander's guy and I, you know, Doug Waits had a great guy and blah, blah, blah. But, I mean, it's a train wreck. There's no structure. They're giving up, you know, they're scoring at the same rate as some of the best offensive teams in the league. they're just getting filled in.

Yep. They give up so many chances against, so many goals against, and I don't care if, you know, your personnel is not perfect. You know, Mike Babcock would beat those guys into powder before he would let them play like that. Yep. And, you know, Mike's one of those guys that I think he does a good job. You know, you can confidently say that Nazim Codry became a better defensive

forward when he came around. You can say 100% in my mind that Mitch Marner has become an effective player on the defensive side of the puck. since, you know, being under Babcock for a while. So to me, at the extremes, I think we have a pretty clear picture of who's doing a good job. It's tough to say in the middle. Yeah, I feel like we're all so much worse off for the Islanders promoting Doug Wade to head coach. And the reason why I see it, I mean, obviously, I mean, I miss Jack Capuano's Mullet, first and foremost.

I mean, that was a thing. The hair and the accent combo. So Jack was my AHL coach. Yep. And he sent me down to the ECHL ones. And we have like a Tim Horton story or something. Yeah, yeah. We were, the bus had pulled over.

And I was going to play in the ECHL All-Star game. And I was behind line and Jack, behind Jack in line. And we had been on the bus. The game had been over forever. Like we were almost where we were going. And he like saw me and remembered. And he was like, oh, yeah, yeah, Borny, you're going down. Just like casually.

And then he like ordered his dangle. And I was like, okay. Like, is there like a car coming to get me? What's the next step here? But anyway, yes. Carry on. with your missing Capoe one. Okay, so I meant, well, I just, I miss seeing him behind the bench.

Just, I'm not even talking about his coaching expertise, just I missed the hair. But I also really enjoyed, you know, last year early on and the year before, you'd, every time the camera would pan over to the islander's bench, you'd see Doug Wade, and he'd be kind of just, like, lurking in the background. He'd have, like, the earpiece in because he was obviously, um, for all the video reviews and stuff, he was, he was the sort of, um, middle man between everything was that way and he always looked like, like a very important security guard, a bodyguard or something.

He was always just kind of like lurking in the background. But the point I brought up to you was it reminds me of the Patrick Wall Ave's from the perspective of, you know, everyone would always point to their blue line and they'd go, well, what's he supposed to do? Look at the players he has. And, you know, of course, there's only so much you can do with the personnel that your GM gives you. But at the same time, I think there's a certain level of, a baseline level of competence we can expect just in terms of like, you can tell that there's a certain preparation level involved. And it's like, guys know what to do, guys know where to be. guys are getting back in transition. It's stuff like that where I don't think the islanders have a great blue line by any means,

but I don't think it's to the point where they should be giving up like four goals a game. Like, yeah, and their forwards. And that's why I bring it up because the forwards, too. And I think it's really tough to evaluate the defensive abilities of forwards in particular. I still believe that the best defensive forwards are the ones who constantly just have the puck in the other team's offensive zone because then they don't even have to play defense. Right. But like some of these guys, like, it's like, it's sagging.

so far back and you're just allowing the other team to just walk right into great scoring chances and you're like that's not being bad at defense that's just not doing your due diligence i've always said if you are a good offensive player like if you can anticipate the play enough to be ahead of it to score goals you should be a good defensive player if you're able to read the game that well and you're focuses on offense a coach should be able to to drill that into your mind that you're thinking like that but in reverse you know like it should really be sort of a transferable skill to me that if you can play offense, you can play defense. One question I'll give to you. Oh, there we go. I'm excited. I've had this debate before with a couple of people

is how many wins and losses you think a coach can swing a team? So you hand the same roster and all 30 coaches coach it this year, 31 coaches coach it. What how many wins and losses could a coach swing that team? That's a good question. I don't know. I don't know. if there's necessarily any way to like analytically answer that like I don't think there's like a certain point total I'm like oh it's very clear if you go from replacement level to the best coach in the league you're going to get

this many differences in wins and losses but when you look at this islanders roster I think it's a great example I think there's with the talent in place like why have they been out of the playoffs for a couple weeks now like I don't maybe they're not a playoff team but like the fact that they're this like I it just makes no sense to me with the talent in place and the scoring they've been able to generate that they couldn't be a bigger threat and I think that so whatever

they're going to miss the point the playoffs by and then add however many more points it would take to make the playoffs I think that's our answer yeah I think I was talking to Tyler Delo about it and I thought there's a handful of games throughout the course of a year you know the number in my head right now is is four games you know where the roster if it's constructed the way this coach did it versus this coach. If, you know, he was able to motivate and, you know, this coach wasn't versus get these guys in their structure and these guys in their structure.

And then just the, the raw decisions, who's on the power play, what formations are we using. I think a team, a coach could win four extra games for a team, which there's, that means another coach could lose four extra games. Right. You know, so that means it's possible to swing a team eight games in the standings, conceivably, just on coaching alone. That's huge.

I mean, I'm going to pull it up right now, but I imagine that would be the different. between the Alhander's making it was in the playoffs. Yeah. So I don't know what the number is. Obviously, I'm just spitballed. Right. But I often wonder, you know, I wondered when I was with the Marleys and our team was unfairly stacked, but we won and one and one. And, you know, part of it was me thinking, like, are we doing a really good job or are we just that unfairly stacked? And, you know, I like to, just a tiny, tiny bit think we did a little something good. Yes. Although I, man, the islanders are 18 points out, so maybe. 18 points out?

There are 18 points behind the Philadelphia Flyers or the second wildcard spot right now, yeah. Oh, man. But things have really gone off the rails here. Like, for a while, they were right there with those teams. And it's amazing that the Rangers are ahead of them in a standing right now, considering that at the trade deadline, the Rangers basically is, terrible. It's been.

Wave the white flag and said, like, we are out. We're down. Doug Wade to me is in a situation. By the way, I hate talking bad about, like, other hockey people. But it's the reality. What's our job? We're supposed to analyze. Sure.

I don't think we're doing a malicious way. We're not like Doug Wade is a crappy person and should be fired and exiled. Like we're valued anything like that. It was literally the word I was about to use was exile. Doug Wade should be exiled the same way that Peter Shearrelli should be exiled after the job in a broadcasting professional. Look at that segue. The way that Shearrelli should. I think the two performances from those two this year, last year and a half, whatever, it's been.

Who, not pretty. Well, before we get to Shirelli and the Oilers, just one final. point on the coaches. I know that I think every team, regardless of how good the coach is, has a certain segment of the fans that's going to pick knits with personnel decisions in the lineup spots and be like, oh, why does this guy? I love this guy so much. Why is he playing him over my favorite prospect and all this stuff? And I think I always say it's kind of like you're just trying to limit the exposure or how bad things get. Because even with Mike Babcock, I think everyone university agrees is one of the best coaches in the league. Like, some of, I get asked, why don't you

have him in your Jack Adams discussion, you know, the Leafs are having a franchise record season and they've had a bunch of injuries. Matthews missed 20 games. Morgan Riley was out for a while. Like, he's done a fine job. And I agree, but I think you can't overlook the fact that I don't think they've utilized their best possible lineup for large stretches of the season. Like it took them a long while to give Nazim Khadry the optimal line mates and stuff like that. And, you know, that's not necessarily going to sink the Leafs and it didn't. But I think that's sort of something we need to take you know account and just I don't know I I know you're talking about I you know I think Mike is an interesting guy um you know there's a lot of big personalities in that Toronto room and you know

they have their different opinions on who should play and and what the the line should be and all that sort of stuff the one thing I give my credit for is I think when he sees it and he knows he realizes he's wrong he's willing to make the change the problem is Mike has a big ego and and it has to be Mike's idea. You know, if Mike decides, you know, you guys seen this Travis Dermott kid? You know, like we could have been telling him that for two years. But when he gets to that point,

remember he said it was going to be a rotation with Borgman and, Carrick and him for a while there, and Dermott played two games and then he never came out again. When Mike decides, he decides. And I think he usually, and he says this in the media, you know, he'll get there. And I agree that it's been too long getting there often and Polack still dresses and all that.

but I think Mike generally figures it out. You're just dropping, like, thinly veiled hints, like just leaving pictures of Travis Devon on his desk. Like, I'm not saying, but... Yeah, I don't know if you noticed this guy, but he's pretty damn good. You just need to stand behind him in line at Tim Hortons and hopefully he'll notice.

Yeah, I don't know. Oh, so just in terms of the coaching, one thing I want to talk to you about was, you know, in hockey in analysis, we get into this quite a bit with quality of competition. and how guys are utilized and how they do in those minutes. And we especially get into it with like third pairing defensemen who just crush it in their underlying numbers, you know, their possession beast, whether it was Eric Jellano while he was on the New Jersey Red Devils

or whether it was Adam Clendening for a while there or you have, everyone's got their one guy. Always like, if you just purely looked at his coursey numbers, you go like, how is this guy not like playing more? He's one of the best guys in the league. it's probably because the coach is massaging those minutes very carefully and putting them in a position to succeed. And how do we weigh guys who do really well in soft, easy minutes, first guys who get completely crushed, but it's because they're sort of like taking a bullet for the team where it's like, you only ever come out in the defensive zone and you're playing with suboptimal players and your whole job is to just try and stay afloat.

and it's a tough balance, I think. It is. And this is probably one of the most, one of the best things that's happened with the analytics community is the understanding of deployment of a player. And that was something in the early days of coursey. You know, I very vividly remember

like seven years ago, they're being a trade at the deadline. And someone was like, they traded a 52% coursey player for a 48% coursey player. Like, what are these idiots, don't they pay it to? And just being like, oh my God, shut off. You know, like there were some tough years there. And I think, I think now there's such an understanding of usage and how these guys go out over the boards that it's been really healthy for fans and the understanding of the game.

I think internally, that's probably been understood for quite a while, you know, that, yeah, this guy doesn't look great all the time and people don't think he's good. But, you know, he's taking the tough minutes. And in terms of being able to weigh one versus the other, that's really hard. You know, all you have is the small sample when the guys out there in a situation where you don't want. want them out there. Right. You know, all of a sudden,

uh, you know, you start a guy in the offensive zone because he's your offensive, you know, 19 year old skilled defenseman and all of a sudden he's in his own zone and he's just like, looks like you got pulled out of the crowd.

He's so lost. Um, you know, all you can do is sort of take those samples and say, okay, he doesn't look ready to me yet. Um, if you're feeling,

you know, a little risque, you could put the players in those situations and find out if they can do it or not. But I think for the most part, coaches safety first and they're very conservative and, and they just, overvalue the small sample of when those guys accidentally get in those situations.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, it's much easier to say stuff like experiment and give it a shot when it's not your job on the line. And I completely, like, I'm sympathetic to the idea of... I've been like this with the Leafs, though, for the last, like, six weeks, like, perfect time to experiment. Yeah. See what he got.

See what, you know, put Roman Pollock in the power play. Maybe you can do it. Probably not. Hey, you got to hear both sides. All right. Let's look into some other questions we've got here. While I'm looking, was there anything else while I had you here that we wanted to talk about? Well, we were going to disparage here, Ellie, a little bit, I think.

There we go. Yeah, you segue there nicely a couple minutes ago, so let's get in that now. Man, so what, okay, what prompted you today to get back into this? Because, I mean, I clearly don't need to have my arm twisted behind my back. I'll gladly talk about this all day every day. but uh i forget why i started talking about it taylor hall just having three four points every single one that's exactly that's that's that's what it was i was looking at the uh i was actually considering my heart trophy uh ballot and and looking into what hearts or taylor heart

heart seeing what he's done see it's forrety and oh there we go but it's truly just incredible like so i went i was thinking about how bad that trade is to trade a guy who could be a heart trophy finalist for a fourth defenseman like a legitimate fourth defense not like me being trying to make the trade look worse like he's probably a fourth defenseman um that that's just that on its face and it's not like this is hindsight when it happened we all said this like the the famous line is already the trade is one for one or whatever and everyone's just like no come on that can't be right there's got to be more to this right and then so you got thinking about it and last night um you know a guy had two goals and one assist for the new

york islanders uh matt barsall flew by yori letera scores the game winner like this guy is must see TV. His other goal might have been nicer than that one. And I was thinking about how we got him. It's like, oh, they traded, the Oilers traded the pick for him for Griffin Reinhardt. Yep. How terrible is that? And then so I was like, you know, what else has he done? And just really got into it.

And, yeah, John Tavares had Eberley on his line. What do you get? 60 points? Yeah. And then I looked into Ryan Strom, 30 points. Like, there's not one redeemable thing. Hmm. Well, the Cam Talbot trade was, I mean, obviously he hasn't been good this season.

But like, you know. Yep. So a couple of smaller things he's done, getting cashier and was. nice. Yep. But, I mean, the moves that really affect your franchise, they're not the fill-in guys. This guy, I mean, make them an area scout for some team somewhere

and don't let them have the reins ever again. It's pretty tough. I mean, I don't know if I've talked about this on the show or somewhere else, but like I've had my good fun with Oilers and Shirley this season online. And I think Oilers fans are sort of reaching a bit of a boiling point where it's like, oh, we get it. Like, you don't keep bringing it up. Like, you're not adding anything new to the table.

and some of it is just, it's an easy joke. It sometimes needs to be made, you know, it's good fun. But on the other hand, like as a hockey fan, I think it's just genuinely disappointing that Connor McDavid here, you know, he's getting out of his ELC now. He's going to be making double digit millions dollars per year, which he's definitely worth. But it makes it tougher to compete and maximize that

when your top guys are making that type of money. And we don't get to enjoy McDavid as much because, frankly, he's not playing with the type of players that make him exciting. And the games aren't worth watching because the team sucks. Yeah, and think about it this season. Like, God damn it. I knew that I didn't want to talk about MVP, but here we are. We're going to talk about McDavid right now.

And we need to bring this up because, you know, you mentioned Hall and McKinnon is having a great season, and you go on and on Kuturov, Malkin, Marshan, like, we're in such a great time to be a hockey fan. There's so much individual talent. I think everyone universally agrees that Connor McDavid is the best player in the league right now. He is. And he's having the best season. If you just look at the numbers, the reason he's being disqualification. The reason he's being disqualified is because the weather's not going to make the playoffs.

But he's not the person that put this team together and built his team. And that's disappointing because instead of just appreciating the fact that he's having his second straight 100 points season, which in today's climate is very difficult to do and the fact that he's going to finish with what, like 110 points, 105, whatever, whatever it is. Like, instead of just talking about that, we're instead of talking about how he's not going to make the playoffs because of his linemates and because of the rest of the team. and that's as a hockey fan and an observer, that's the disappointing part in all this. And that's why you and I keep bringing it up,

not because it's such an easy joke and because we have a personal indebt against Peter Shirelli. Yeah, no, it's disappointing for not just Oilers fans. I mean, he's a, McDavid's a generational talent that really isn't getting to the exposure or the ability to succeed like he deserves. I just, I have this image in my head of Peter Shirelli, like a cartoon image of him in like a robber's outfit,

like stealing the heart, like sneaking away, you know, as McDavid looks on, like, empty-handed. Like, he literally took the award from the guy this year. I don't know if he's going to win it. I've, uh, I have really, I've read as much of people's opinion as I, as I could on how they think the award should be voted on. It's a pretty polarizing topic. It is.

It is. And I was very polar on it as recently as three weeks ago. I was like, I don't, I don't know, no, not to get too into my own vote, but I don't care. He's the best player in the league. And then I've really, I've had. my mind sort of switch a little bit. I don't know. As of this day, I'm not sure what I'm going to do exactly.

And it's pathetic that I need the last two games to add to the sample size, but I would sure like someone to do something absurd. So what could possibly happen for you to change? I'm assuming you're talking about either McKinn or Taylor Hall. Yeah. You know, Hall having his team on the precipice of playoffs in McKinnon 2, you know, if Hall put up four points next game and four points the next game and they leapfrog into the next wild card spot.

And, you know, they get Washington instead of getting Boston and, you know, something like that, you know, could sway me. You know, this is crunch time and both teams are on the cusp. So if one of them were to do something special, meanwhile, if they both get blank and McDavid, you know, throws up seven goals and gets to 50 or, you know, whatever he's at for you, you know, there's still things that could change my mind. Yeah, you know what?

The past two Rebels games, I watch quite a bit of than this season. I think they've been, even early on, I was sort of saying, like, you know, this isn't, this isn't your dad's New Jersey Devil's team. Like, they're actually, like, very, like, they're not very exciting, but they play a faster-paced, more open. Butcher and Vatten and, to me, change the team entirely. For sure. And, and, you know, you have the talent now where they can play more of a North-South game. But, you know, the past two games in particular against the Montreal Canadiens and then against the Rangers last night, you know, some of this stuff, like I, in particular the game, against the Canadians when they wound up winning in the third period,

it was like they were killing a penalty and they were sort of hanging on for dear life and then Taylor Hall comes out of the penalty box and gets a breakaway and scores. And it's like, that was a great encapsulation of the New Jersey Devil season because there's been other very valuable contributors on our team, but it's been a lot of like,

let's just hang on until Taylor Hall can do something super cool and get us this win. And it has been, I mean, you know, you look, he has 40 something more points than Iko Hishio, who's second on the team. And it's just... He's definitely the guy that... He's, like, physically just dragging them into the playoffs.

And I don't think he's been the best player in the world this season, but the year he's had has just been so impressive. And I feel obligated to sort of commemorated in some way. This counts. You're doing it. Well, I'm finishing second or third in the heart. It's nothing to sneeze at it. It doesn't demean his season by any means, but...

The only thing that really kills... You know, the argument for Hall is sort of that he's the player who's furthest ahead of all of his teammates in terms of scoring and output and all that other stuff. Right. But then, like, if you lean on that, then it's like, oh yeah, Connor McDavid's on the Oilers. It's true. You know. And Connor McDavid's second, I think, Dreisidel's second in the team in scoring. And it's still like a 30-something point gap between them.

Yeah. They spent a lot of time playing together this season. Right. So that's why Drysadles numbers are so high. It's kind of mind-boggling. And I understand. And, you know, I've, we said we weren't going to do this. We're going to get that.

We're into it. We're in the weeds. Yeah, the whole thing about having to make the playoffs, I've never, I think there's too many factors in hockey, you know, that you can't control and all you can control is your own game. And, you know, if you get 100 points for one team or the other team, it's still 100 points. And that's the value you contributed to them. So that's why I was kind of pro-McDavid. But certainly there's other guys at the good case. And I really wish that the PHWA had decided to.

to make our ballots transparent next season and not start on this one, so it's a tough one. Well, I don't actually, by the way, I voted for transparency. Yeah,

one final point on this that I do find interesting is it seems like it is a bit hypocritical because it feels like the people who are sort of saying that you have to make the playoffs

to be eligible for this award or to be seriously considered unless you're completely lapping the competition are the sort of purists or more old, school types, I'd say. That's fair. Yep.

But at the same time, those are the ones that will constantly throw back in your face that hockey is a team game. And it's not like basketball. Our sport is a team game where, you know, it's camaraderie and all these guys come together to be better as a whole. And it's like, well, yeah, then if it's, this is an individual award. And if it's a team game, then there's only so much that one individual can do for this team.

So if you believe that hockey is this ultimate team game where one guy can only do so much, then for this award, you sort of need to eliminate that team accomplishment and just view the individual season in isolation. Yeah, couldn't agree more. And, you know, not to, you know, presume to know what they meant when they started the award or whatever, but I do believe that the intent ultimately is to say, this guy's been the best player in the league this year. And I understand it's, it's not written that way, but that's, you know, some, there's some wording in the Constitution people had changed too. You know, it's, I'm not sure that was the original intent. And for my purposes as a fan. I've always thought of it as that guy had the best season in the league this

year. That's, that's to me, he had the best season in the league at his position. And it's impossible to say that that's not Connor McDavid this year. So, but I'm, as I said, I'm still on the fence. Yes. Okay, let's move on from that. I do have a question here from Ben Weber. And just to make, so you were hired by the Leafs that first year with Babcock, right? Yeah. I was actually in the Leafs office. So even before I was with the Leafs as like officially on the staff in the summers just I had a relationship with Dubus. They had interviewed me for a job

in the Sue and you know I knew computer so they they had me come in and help cut video of free agents and potential draft picks and stuff like that. So I was actually in the office when the Babcock thing happened. It was a pretty cool moment. So the reason why I bring that up is because I guess that first year, though, was like the one with like PA Parento and Michael Grabner in the year where the Leafs were sort of like a shell company that like wasn't actually an NHL team. It was just like a bunch of assets that they brought in hoping to turn them into a future asset.

Yeah. So I wasn't with the Marley's that year. My first year was the year after. It was the year after. Okay. So anyways, the reason why I guess I brought that up because Ben Weber here sort of asked about, you know, should and can the Rangers follow the Leafs rebuild model? And I assume he's asking because, I mean, I watched that Rangers game last night against the devil, as I mentioned. And it's all well and good to, from the outside, say, you know, you got to acknowledge the current system that's in place with the league.

And you got to rebuild properly. You got to blow it up. You got to trade everything you can that's not really tied down and get as many picks as you can and acknowledge that you're going to suck for a few years. But hopefully you get lucky in the lottery and you get someone that's going to come in like Austin Matthews and completely turn. your franchise around and you build around him. But then you watch a game like that and it's like, especially with Henry Klunkwis there. I mean,

it's like, you know, they're just getting peppered with chances and he's doing everything he can to keep them afloat, but they're losing 5'1 and I guess you tune in to watch Neil Peonk and some of these other guys, but it's like, is that a guy?

It's pretty bleak. And so it's very easy to tune in once every couple weeks or whatever or not even watch them this season and just be like, oh, you know, yeah, just rebuild. I'll come check back in when there's something. to watch. But if you're actually working for the team or if you're a fan of that team,

I assume it's much tougher to be invested at watch that on a nightly basis. And actually, if you're a fan, you know, buy the team's jersey, go to the games, be like, put your money where your mouth is. And if you're running that team, who knows if you're even going to be around by the time that team is ready to compete. So it's like there is that fine balance there where I think rationally, there's no real argument against, especially like if you have a certain type of team that's in place already, you need to embrace it.

and you can't half-asset, like the Canucks try to do for years. At the same time, though, like, it's easier so than done. Well, you know, my thought on tanking in general is that it's real easy to tear it down, and it's really hard to build it back up. And you see fans often clamoring for their organization to tear it to the ground. You know, look at Arizona and look at Buffalo. You know, they actively pursued being bad. And then they go, okay, well, we got a couple good picks,

So now we're going to get good. And it's like, you know, you don't have the pieces. You need to have some guys around that can still play. And, you know, particularly with the percentages of winning the lottery now, you know, the bottom, you know, one or two have a, you know, strong chance at it. And everyone in the middle, it's kind of a murky, muddy water. What's a difference? You know, I understand a percent here, a percent there. But I think really tanking is kind of a terrible idea.

You know, I respect that, you know, once the Leafs realized in 15, 16 or whatever you're, it was there that they weren't going to be good, that they said, all right, let's not necessarily, you know, you don't try to lose, but they called up a lot of Marleys who are undeserving of being, you know, uh, NHL players. And, um, yeah, I, I just don't think tearing it right to the ground is a great idea. I think it's a lot harder to build it back up. And I think if you can kind of make a pivot, not the way the Canucks did it, not by signing, you know, sort of middle age, middling players for a lot of money. But, you know, we've seen teams turn franchises around without hitting rock bottom.

possible. It is. Yeah, you're right. You're sort of playing the odds. I think this is a Tyler Delo theory, but this idea of like instead of fully just getting rid of everything and having to build a whole new team from scratch, basically, because that is so tough to do because there's just so many spots to fill. Like, if you're going to tank, kind of try to build a team, but just have really bad goal

tending. And because we often see, like, if you're, just giving up a certain number of goals. Like you can have a good team. You can be building something special. You could be a decent possession team. You can have a bright future. But ultimately,

if you're getting buried by your goaltending, you're not going to win a lot of games. And also, you can do this differently, though, than just saying, like, we call up our ECHL goalie. And we're going to play him for the year. You can audition guys.

You know, you can take flyers on this guy in Europe or this American League guy who's had good numbers. And you can just try a bunch of different goaltenders. And if you find a good one, well, you know, tough break. you keep them or you trade them or it's like it's another asset money found you know this is one thing that you know that they did with the Marley's

is they brought in just reams of players there's no roster size limit and they just brought in after the season when guys were eligible to come to the American League they brought in a ton of guys see them in practice get them connected with the organization get to know them get them in a couple games see what you think you're not obligated to do

anything but you might as well take a look you know so it's you know I think there's smarter ways to sort of go about this tanking and building than there is than just trying to be terrible and then looking around going all right let's sign that 31 year old you know like it's there there's other ways well it's fascinating because i feel like the coyotes are a great example of this because you know this year was that they kind of wanted to be like i don't know competent or have a certain level of respectability and not be a laughing stock in the league and they bring in derrick step-bind they bring in nicholas jommers

and they bring in auntie and i think everyone jason demurs and everyone agrees and everyone agrees that for what they gave up. It's like, yeah, these are competent NHL players. And for what the coyotes had before, they will be better. And it's not even an indictment against analytics or anything. Those are just actual hockey moves. And it ultimately, the start of the year,

it didn't matter because Antirontah got injured. And they had Louis DeMang and Scott Wedgwood and all these guys who probably shouldn't be in the NHL having like 880, say percentages. And so they lost a ton of games. They believe it started 0, 10, and 1. And at that point, your year is basically over. and then now you look at it and it's like oh they've been the hottest team in the league over the past couple weeks and some of that i'm sure is you know your season's over you're playing without any pressure some of it is getting a bit lucky but ultimately it's the fact that their goalie has like a 930 save percentage and is the guy who they envisioned being there all year and so now i wonder i don't know if they're going to be this good next year but if they still healthy i think they'll be they won't be like 29th in the league yeah they're a fun pick next year actually i kind of hope they lose the next game or two so no one sniffs them out too much but they're still healthy they'll be they'll be they'll be like they'll be they'll be like they're

It'd be a fun pick this summer that if they make a couple of decent moves, you know, there's enough there to think that they could be competitive. And frankly, Pacific Division's not that great. No. I mean, we've seen what Vegas did there this year. Yeah, you know, so, you know, they have good goaltending all season and, you know, their young guys get a little bit older. And there's a whole summer and draft to make more moves.

And, you know, maybe that's a team next year where, you know, they're a surprise team, even though we kind of see it coming. I know that you're I mean you're a savant with this stuff and I know that you wrote about Brock Besser's shot earlier in the year and sort of just the technical nature of it. someone asks, you know, what's the harder, what are the top five hardest shots in the league in the moment? And I'm not even that interested in that. I'm more like, what are the five, what are the handful of players

that, you know, you look at them and you go, like, man, that guy's shot is a plus plus weapon. And, you know, I'll give you an example. Obviously, Patrick Klein, I'm sure it will be one of your answers here. But like, I strongly believe that goalies are so good in 2018 that if they can square you up and they can see the puck,

they're probably going to stop it. And last night, Carrie Price, who's actually, I was having a good game before that, was completely squared up, and Patrick Lainey from way like Ilya Kovulchuk territory near the blue line just rips one right by him. And it's like, Kerry Price was there and no one was in front of him. He could see it perfectly and it just, it didn't matter. Yeah, there's very few guys that can pull that off. Yeah, Linae is definitely, he's probably the guy right now,

his shot is special. You know, I just got to mention Ovechkin, so I'm not the jerk because obviously he's still Alex Ovechkin. Besser is probably one of one of my favorite guys to watch shoot just because I think he has an interesting shot. Phil Kessel has the most, maybe the most unique shot. Just the way it comes off his stick is unbelievable. It's, I don't know, it's just fascinating to watch. And we've seen what he does when he's on the fly.

And then I guess the guy to me who is sort of newer is Austin Matthews. and just, I talked to a shooting coach or a skills coach recently. I can't remember who it was exactly, but they talked about this different style of shooting today. You know, that's different than when I shot. And they talked about white space between the puck and the stick and how these guys utilize sort of the whip of the stick.

And it's not a slap shot, but it's like a wrist shot that works like a slap shot because of this little gap between the puck and the blade. But Matthews, you know, the way he pulls. pulls it. He can pull it two feet into his body and change the angle and whip it. These guys grew up with one piece sticks. I grew up with a wood stick and a two piece shaft. And by the time the one pieces came around, they weren't, you know, they break every time you took a shot. And these kids grew up with them and they know how to utilize them better than anyone

did in my generation. So, yeah, the goaltenders today, you know, goals are starting to rise a little bit again. I think that's part of it. Yeah, Matthews and I'd say Philip Forsberg are the two examples that come to my mind of guys who do the best job of sort of like, I don't know, having an error of unpredictability or sort of changing the angles. And it's like you sort of just watching these games, you feel like you have a good sense of when a guy is going to release a puck and what looks natural. And then these guys just release it from these like odd angles. That's a really good point. Well, they look like they're like off position and off balance, but they don't necessarily have to sacrifice anything off of the actual velocity or, or, or, uh, precision.

And that's an amazing skill because that ties to the idea of goalies being said, annoying what to expect. And just like how smart some of these kids are with their puck placement. You know, you think back to Matthew's goal. I think it was against maybe Buffalo. But they were on a rush. And Nealander pulled up and hit him late. And Matthews came down the slot, dead slot, middle of the ice.

Everyone in the rink is thinking he's just going to rip this top corner on the ice five hole scores. You know, they're just so clever. And, you know, when you have a deadly shot like that, you can throw the change up. and score once in a while. Since I know people say we don't talk about the blues enough, Lattaxenko also on this list in terms of that register from the right circle. You know, yesterday I was on yesterday's podcast, I was talking with our buddy CJ about William Carlson

and his next contract and sort of this idea of shooting percentage and us having an appreciation now that outliers either super high or super low shooting percentages probably won't continue next season and you need to recalibur your expectations. And I wanted to add to that discussion here with you because I'm sort of fascinated about the idea of on the one hand, you can just look at the crude shooting percentage and go 25% or whatever he's shooting. That's not going to continue. But I wonder how much of that is sort of the repeatability of actually getting those good looks. Because as I mentioned, like William Carlson this year, if you watch where Marsha So and Riley Smith are setting him up are pretty ideal scoring opportunities.

It's like, yeah, it makes sense that he's kind of. converting a lot of these. These are great. I wonder whether he's going to be able to get those same looks next year as teams game plan for him more. You know, watching a guy like Matthews, it always blows my mind how some of these guys who everyone knows are superstars in the league

can still sort of get lost in the action and then all of a sudden pop back up and they're like wide open in this great scoring opportunity. And you're like, how like everyone on the other team knows to watch out for him? And I understand hockey's a free flowing game with changes and bounces, but it's like some of these guys are just so good at still finding ways to get open and prime scoring opportunities even though the other team is completely game planning for them and I think that's where you know a guy like Carlson I'm sure if he gets the same scoring chances this year might not convert 25% of them right but he'll probably be above average but I just wonder

if he's going to be able to get those same chances yeah I've I've always thought that about you know shooting percentage and you can see a lot of the earlier days of analytics I would sort of bristle at people um you know, implying that, you know, a guy was on a hot street because a shooting percentage or, you know, he hasn't scored because a shooting percentage. Well, sometimes the shooting percentage is really high because he's playing really well and he's getting to the dangerous areas of the ice. And sometimes it's low because he's playing on the perimeter and he's playing on the outside. I understand over large samples, shooting percentage, like you said, the extreme outliers are obviously going to regress. But I think, you know, there are stretches of time where people can influence their shooting and shooting percentage by getting to places.

And, you know, for Carlson, I don't know what he's done the rest of his career in terms of if he's been getting those same looks. And if this year is just a totally different situation and maybe he's figured something out. But yeah, he is going to be an interesting one. You know, to your previous point, just about guys getting lost. I was thinking in the early days of Alex Ovechkin's career, I remember thinking there's no way he was going to be able to continue to shoot from there. Because what are we morons? We know where you're going to shoot from. And I guess we're morons.

I don't know, unless it's just no one's willing to just stand there and lay down in front of his stick or something. But, uh, it's, I mean, especially on the power play, it's, it's kind of impossible. You, you know, you see, especially when you have the benefit of Nick Baxter. Yeah, a quarterback there. It's like, okay, if you move over to Ovechkin, T.J. Oshki, there in the slot is just has like an easy tap in. Yeah. They will probably convert that pretty high percentage of time as well. Yeah. You can't just stare at a guy. Yeah. You know, not just Ovechkin, but any guy who, you know, talented player gets lost, you can't just have your back to the play. You know, you, you, you. Basically, you make it a lot easier on everyone else.

You need to be aware of where the puck is. And it's a lot easier said than done for sure. Okay, one final thing before we get out of here, a name that, putting back to our MVP conversation, a name that has been getting some buzz lately, has been Claudeau-Jureau. And I want to talk to you about this idea of his bounce-back season

from the perspective. I think it's so fascinating because, you know, obviously he's healthier this year and he's been a bit more fortunate with the bounces at 5-15 but at the same time just moving from center to wing and sort of the how that's freed him up I think a bit to be a more kind of skilled offensive threat I don't know what the best way to put it is but it's pretty clear that playing with Sean Kuchurier and having Sean Kuturier's defensive yeah expertise there to soak up some of that responsibility has been a massive net positive for both the flyers and for

Claudeau. Yeah, I think part of that is just in terms of how much energy you put out in the defensive zone, like if you're playing center down low, one thing they do in hockey school with kids, or they did at the hockey schools I taught at, the Okanagan hockey school there, is they just had kids face each other, and one kid is just going to juke back and forth, and the other guys try to mirror them. You know, where's you go and try to stay in front of them? And when you're the guy who is making the jukes, it's fun. It's, you know, you can. You, enjoy it and you're trying to goof around, whatever. On the other side of that, it's exhausting.

Because you kind of have to be alert that he could go either way, and you're kind of on your edges, and you never really get settled. So when you're in the D zone playing center, that's what you're doing. You're mirroring, you know, the offensive player, and it takes a lot out of you. As a winger, you know, you pick a spot on the ice where they tell you to stand and you just take some deep breaths and just wait. So when the puck goes the other way, you're raring a go. Meanwhile, the center's like, water, I'm done.

So, you know, I think, you know, allowing him the, opportunity to be fresh when he moves from the D zone to the Ozone. And Coturier is so good at getting them out of the D zone because he's such a good defensive center that they probably spend a lot more time at the other end. And it's definitely, it's done wonders for his offensive game. He's always had the skill, but I think he's just in a better situation now. When you're watching tape, like how do you, how do you evaluate, like what are you looking for from a forward, whether it's a center or a wing or like in terms of labeling him as

good defensively, is it like positioning? Is it? Yeah. for me the big word would be tenacity. You know, it's really hard to, you don't always, here's a good, I think a decent way to put it is that you don't always have to go your hardest

because the bounces don't always go against you. So sometimes if you kind of let the guy get a bit behind you or the, you know, you kind of stand up straight for a stack, you know, sometimes it's fine. Nothing happens.

The play carries on and whatever. But it's the time that it, the bounce does go wrong and you're standing up straight and the guy jumps by you or the puck slips through your feet and the guy that you let kind of behind you is now in alone. It's the constantly, it's the diligence and this is what Mike Babcock does so well with his guys is he has his thumb on them all the time, that it's all the time. And you hear him saying in the interviews that, you know, no nights off and you can be a professional or you come to work and it's every night and there's no nights off. Right. You know, all that sort of

stuff. So if you're smart enough to know where to stand, that's the first most important thing to being a good defensive forward, but then it's also just carrying enough to be on it and alert and on your toes and not resting in the D zone waiting for a chance to go play offense. Yeah, and I saw you talking about this with Pierre LeBron today on Twitter, but it was about that article that appeared on the athletic about Mark Edward Vlasic. I can't imagine how much that guy has to move his feet. Sorry, carry on though. Well, the reason why I bring that up is a stat that I've always been very partial to is

looking at the penalty data up for a specially defenseman. Great call. Because I understand, you know, if a guy isn't taking a lot of penalties, there's this prevailing idea, more old school types would say, you know, he's soft, he's not being physical enough. But I think, like, it's a pretty good proxy, honestly, for positioning. Absolutely. Because if you're in the right position, chances are you're not needing to hook and trip

and do all these sorts of infractions just to keep up. And, you know, there's going to be certain occasions where you just have to take a penalty where sometimes you get your stick caught in a guy's blades and he goes down and it's a kind of a freak accident. But for a lot of these guys, I think like a Christanaf type has always been great of this. Jared Spurgeon, Jacob Slavin now coming into the league. And Mark Edwards was like this year. I mean, his only two penalties are delayed game penalties where he cleared it off the glass. Like the fact that that guy's playing against the other team's best all the time, generally in his own zone against, and he's typically facing the other team's best forward.

Like the fact that he's always in the right place at the right time and isn't taking penalties is such a luxury. in my. Yeah, and that's why I said, you know, he must have to move his feet so much, is because he has two penalties all season, 78 games, playing the best competition, a lot of minutes, and they're delay a game penalty. So he must always be in the right spot. And that takes a lot of energy and commitment to even, you know, you may not need to take those extra couple steps, but he gets there. On top of that, so it reflects positioning to me, not taking penalties, and also just raw skill. Because if you're slow, sometimes you can be in the right position, but a talented player is just faster than you.

you got to haul him down, you know, just to go back to the Matt Barzal play where he skated by Yori Latera the other day. Latera is not a good skater. That's an instance to me where it's like, he can be wherever he wants to be. Tarzal's blowing by him. It doesn't matter. So that's collateral damage of not having the raw skill. You just got to haul Barzal down and just going out two minutes.

I'm not very fast. Right. But yeah, that's an incredible stat to me. And it really reflects well in Vlasic and how hard he must work to be in the right spots. All right. Let's get out of here. plug some stuff. What are you,

are you, are you, are you working on anything this week or are you just getting ready for the masters? The masters are obviously the main focus,

but yeah, I wrote a thing yesterday on the athletic for about how teams prepare for playoffs and all the work they go through. That's up right now.

And then, yeah, I've got a couple different pieces plan for playoffs here sort of in the interim. Kind of wait to see how the rest of the season plays out so we know the matchups and then I'll apply to that.

But yeah, definitely check out the stuff on the athletic and follow me on Twitter at J.T. Bourne. Well, I'm glad. definitely recommend that and I'm glad we got to do this finally. It's our first in-person show and hopefully the first of many if I'm here in September. I'm sure we'll be doing

this on a regular basis. That'd be great, man. Thanks a lot. Chat soon. The Hockey PDOCast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockeypedocast.