The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 240: Big Games, Big Moments, Big Podcasts

Episode Date: June 4, 2018

Mike Johnson makes his long-awaited return to the show to discuss the first three games of the Stanley Cup Final. The topics include: 1:30 Marc-Andre Fleury's return to planet earth 5:40 The Capitals defensive structure in front of Holtby 9:45 Washington forwards counteracting the forecheck 21:55 The Capitals winning the secondary battles 29:15 Shea Theodore's notable Game 3 struggles 40:20 High leverage moments and the officiating Sponsoring today’s show is Indochino. They’re now hooking my listeners up with any premium suit in their catalogue for just $379 (including free shipping). To take advantage of this great offer, just visit their website and enter the promo code PDOwhen checking out. Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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name is my good buddy Mike Johnson Mike what's going on man what's going on Dimitri you went off and became a big star since you had me on last I didn't know if I was going to get a call back so good to be good to be with you once again I don't know about that but I what I do know is I went back through the through the archives and the last time you appeared on the show was episode 130 which was back in January 2017 this is episode 240 and you know to give you a sense of how long ago that was I was going through the show notes from that, and we had like a spirited debate about whether

Kyle Coso was a deserving All-Star. So it has been a long time since we've chatted on this show. So I'm excited to have it back on. What's happening in Collegoso's life is that conversation. Yes, yes, it has. And yeah, it's been, I mean, a lot's happened in our lives. A lot's happening in the NHL as a whole. And, you know, we're recording this now between,

we're going to post this as soon as we finish talking. So hopefully people will listen to it before Game 4. We're going to recap the first three games, maybe do a little bit of a preview and hopefully I guess maybe if people listen after game four, well they'll wonder why we talked about what we did but the first three games have been really interesting for me.

I think there's a bunch of different ways we can go about this discussion. I don't know. What's been the sort of biggest storyline for you that stuck out through the first three games? Well, I mean I think part of it is the inevitable return to humankind of Mark Andre Fleury.

I thought I thought it would have happened prior to the Stanley Cup final, but when you have a goalie who has had a very good year, has had lots of winning in his past, but he's playing goal at a level that nobody has ever played it before. You have to believe at some point that's going to end. I mean, it's unlikely he's going to be the greatest goaltending performance in the history of the game, and he was on pace to do that, basically.

through three rounds. So I think so much of how people perceived Vegas going into the final, that they were some sort of unstoppable, overwhelming, inevitable winner, had so much to do with Mark Andre Fleur playing at a 947, say, percentage. I mean, if you need 40 shots to get two goals, you're going to win just about every game. If you have a goaltender playing that well, now some of that's defense in front of them and all the other reasons.

but a lot of it's just their goalie was playing light out ridiculous, and I just wonder how much the perception of Vegas was skewed by their goaltender, because had he been at a 9-25, you know, you're talking about 7, 8, 9 more goals he would have let in over the course of the few series that he played. That would be enough to make the difference, especially against Winnipeg in the result. So the biggest takeaway early on is Mark Andre Fleury not being awful, but just not being as great as he has been beforehand because now Vegas looks more like a normal team and less like this unstoppable juggernaut.

Yeah, no, that's right. I mean, if you put into perspective through the first 15 games in the first three rounds leading up to this series, Flurry had two games with a sub-900 save percentage, and this series, all three of them have been, that's the case so far. So you're right, I mean, the 947 save percentage does wonders for making everything look better and maybe all those conversations we had in the lead up to this series about, you know, what can other teams glean from what Vegas is doing to be so successful or ultimately.

Get a good goalie. Get a good goalie. Yeah. And on the other end of the ice, obviously, you know, Braden Holpey has been rock solid, especially in game two. He was remarkable, easily the best player on the ice. And he was very solid in game three as well. So, yeah, I mean, for all the stuff we want to kind of look at and peel back all the layers

for these games and sort of talk about X's and O's at the end of the day, It's like which team's goalie is going to make more saves is ultimately probably going to wind up determining who's going to come out on top. And so far, Holtby's been the better of the two. And I guess we'll see how it goes the rest of the way. Like regression works in mysterious ways. It's very tough to kind of nail down what's going to happen. And obviously, Flurry.

There's some sort of middle ground between how he's looked in these first three games and how he looked in the first couple series. So maybe if we find a nice little balance there, then maybe this series could shift back in Vegas' favor. Yeah, I don't think he has to play at the level, you know, a 950 for Vegas to be successful for Vegas to win. I mean, I think to match Braden Holby would be just about good enough. But do you think that Braden Hoppe also, for as much love as Mark Andre Fleury was deservedly getting,

I think Braden Holby probably doesn't get enough. Right. When you look at his career numbers in the playoffs, they're amongst the greatest of all time. He's almost played 80 games in the playoffs, and I think he's got the second highest save percentage ever. Yeah. So, you know, you start talking to those terms. I think Mark Henry is down in the 30s as far as all time. So lumped in with everybody else who has not won a cup

or got to the third round for Washington. I think Braden-Holpey probably has slighted somewhat in the expectation of how good he has been. Forget about how good he's going to be, but he's just how good he has been over his career. And he's certainly shown in the first few games in this one. He's been really good. So one way I want to talk about you with, you know,

in terms of Brain and Holby's performance is sort of what's going on in front of him I know we have a difficult time kind of really capturing or quantifying, you know, defensive efficiency and sort of what the players in front of the goal you're doing. Usually we just kind of look at how a team's playing defensively based on how many goals they've given up. But with the Capitals, a big storyline throughout this entire postseason, I think, especially in the series, has been sort of this defensive structure they have under Barry Trots

and the 1-1-3 they're using in the neutral zone. And especially when they go up in some of these games, I think they've been sort of surgical in terms of how they really just put the clamps down. There's obviously, you know, a few instances in game two where Holpe had to make remarkable scenes. But for the most part, I think in the third period there, there was a stretch of like 10 or 11 minutes where Vegas couldn't even muster a shot on goal. And that sort of speaks to what's going on in front of him.

And I don't know, is that sort of one of those things where just because Holby's playing so well and because the pucks aren't going in, we're making a lot of it? Or do you think there's something to have the fact that the capitals have actually sort have found this nice little balance between obviously all the offensive weapons they have, but also just playing a much better defensive game as an entire team. No, it's both. It's not just Braden Holpey, and you're right. Because we see it every year, every team, even really good teams, especially when they get up,

if they want to try to play a more defensive posture as Washington has opted to, they kind of inevitably get hemmed in their own end. Even if they defend well, they get in that mindset, we're just defending and we're going to chip it out and then we'll just defend some more. And at some point that does break down because it's just hard to do. It's hard to do for 10, 15 minutes of a period.

But Washington has got a really nice balance where they've got the defensive mindset and when in trouble, they do occasionally just shoot it away or the high flip into the neutral zone and chase it down. But they also, when they get it, especially their top couple, lines, they're not afraid to make plays. And then they pass it out of their

own end. I think that's so important for what Washington is able to do when protecting a lead, not just stopping the rush chances and keeping them the outside and make them dump it in and all the other things that they do to Vegas. But also then what you do win a battle, you do get it back, you've got to pass it. You've got to pass it to someone. You can't just shoot

it away. And I think Washington, the skill players are really toe in that line nicely where they are committed to defense, which is ice for Perry Trots, but then are also still using their skill to make good plays, even if those good plays result in just, you know, a possession exit that allow them to kind of comfortably move the puck up the ice for dumping the other way. I think a lot of teams can learn something from that because not all the work just has to go in to stop and then from the other team

of scoring, but the work has to go into then moving the puck up yourself. So they're doing that very well. And I thought, especially in the second and third game, for the most part, Vegas does really well when they are able to kind of swarm and ball use of neutral zone. I mean, basically, who could turn the other team over in the neutral zone? Right. And in game one, Vegas did a lot of that against Washington. You know, a lot of catching from behind, a lot of pucks around the blue lines, and that allows Vegas to skate, attack the blue end of themselves, zone entries, possession, and then try to create off the rush. Because every player, no matter how good of a guy you are down low, it's easier to create a

great offense off the rush. If you give me a three on two or two on two, just a little bit more time and space, and Vegas did a good job in the first game, I think that's really what's changed in that WASH has managed their neutral zone better in that they're not turning it over anymore. They're actually clogging up on Vegas, and Vegas doesn't really get much off the rush. And spread about chances, but even just possessions. The force to dump it in way more than they want to, especially their top guys. You look at why maybe Marsa So and Carlson and Riley Smith, their first line, haven't been quite as good as Vegas wants them to be,

because they've got to shoot in a lot. And even for players as good as that who can get stuff down off the cycle, you don't want to shoot it in. You want to skate it in, and they haven't been able to do it as much as they want. Yeah, no, that's true. I remember when I was previewing the series with our buddy Andrew Berkshire, before it started, he was making the note of, you know, we were talking about the Vegas Four check and sort of how they'd give in teams'

fits, especially Winnipeg in their Western Conference final, which was surprising based on the caliber of defensemen Winnipeg had. And he was making the note that maybe the sort of the antidote of that for Washington would be what they'd done all postseason, which was having guys like Kuznetsov and Baxter and Lars Eller kind of come back in their own zone and help with those breakouts themselves and maybe provide different avenues for him to get it out as opposed to just giving the puck to the defense and behind the net and hoping he makes a play. And we've seen a lot of that in this series.

And you're right. I think that the fact that Vegas has struggled to create a lot of offense at 5-15, unless their fourth line has been on the ice against all odds, has been the fact that they haven't been able to turn as much of that defense into offense and get a lot of those easy opportunities. And, you know, for the capitals, if you just look at the first three games as a whole, you know, Vegas has got the better of the play in terms of 5-15 as a kind of broad number, but then when you actually kind of slice it and dice a little bit and look at the high-dangered stuff

and what's happening around the net. Washington, much has been the case for this entire postseason, has done much better in that regard. And I, yeah, I mean, it's one of those things. We're over the long haul. You want to see those possession numbers kind of slanted more in their favor. But in a series this short, they've clearly stumbled upon something that's working for them there. And I'm going to be fascinated to see whether that trend continues here because we've only really seen three games so far,

so you don't want to make too much of it. But there's certainly trends that are starting to kind of manifest themselves. Well, they are, and I think far the greatest one to Washington's credit, through three games anyways, is that the greatest asset that everyone proclaimed that Vegas had on everyone, including Winnipeg, was speed, right? That they play fast. Not only do they skate fast, but they play fast, and they pressure fast, and they move it fast. And Washington's got a lot of swift skaters, but I would look at the actual individuals,

and you take away Chandler Stevenson, Kuznetsoff, Tom Wilson. Like, there's not a ton of just fast skating Washington Capitals, but I watch the game, and I don't see a real difference in team speed. And I think that's a credit to Washington. Because if one person tells me that Vegas needs to try harder or want it more, I'm going to pull my hair out. I'm going to the final here. I'm sure they're trying as hard as they can.

I don't think they don't want it. And does that mean every time someone loses, the other team wanted it more? and you never not want it more and actually lose as well. But anyways. But I think that's what's happened. I think Washington has made Vegas play at their pace. So they've negated all that speed that everyone had trouble with, especially the speed to check,

by how they're managing the pocket of the plays they're making and how they're turning over Vegas themselves. So Barry Troutts hasn't played well. I give the caps most of the credit for that. So, okay, so if you're coaching or if you're playing or if you're advising this Vegas team, like what's sort of the counter punch to that? Like how do you change the sort of the pace this game's being played at and sort of the terms that they're going at 5-1-5,

like is there certain stuff as opposed to just, you know, have the puck more often? Like, is there certain little wrinkles you could throw in to change that up that would actually swing it back in their favor? That's the question, isn't it? That's why Jared Glant's being paid the big bucks. Yeah, that's why he's going to run coach at the year because he's supposed to be able to find the answer to this one. Yeah, I mean, I think probably a couple things.

You may have to take a bit of a pay to the fourth line, especially early on in games, in willingness to kind of put it in and go get it and do a better job of putting into the spaces to make the Washington defenders work. Now, I know it's very boring to say you want to dump it in away from goaltender, but I think Braden Holpe, despite his gaff against Nocic, has done

a nice job in games two and three of negating some of the dump-ins and being able to move it efficiently to a good spot, and Vegas kind of ends up chasing it. So I think if they can do that a little bit better, because I think Demetriotov, a good player, Niskin is an

excellent player, Carlson, can pass it well when he has time. And Michael Kempney, for some strange reason, has been like a godsend for Washington, which no one would have thought would have happened. But I still want a fresher juice and Orpick and Kepney and try to make them make decisions for sure. I think that would be part of it.

And the other part of it is, I think when Vegas is at their best, their neutral zone puck pursuit angling is awesome. And you watch that first game, and how many times did Kuznets off or a vet can try to skate to the neutral zone, and not only were they being defended by whoever, McNabb or Schmidt or whoever, but then there was also a forward stick or two forward sticks poking in at them as well. I think that idea of getting more bodies in and around the puck,

especially for the best players of Washington, has to be a point of focus. Because if you give Kuznets off backstrom kind of a bit of a one-on-one situation, even if it's a good gap-up, one-on-one and everything else, They make plays happen because they're that good. That's why they're that good. I think they've got to keep, like they did in game one, getting more sticks and bodies in and around the puck,

especially through the neutral zone to try to create the turnover. It's because that's where the speed matters for Vegas. If they can get a turnover, if they can force Washington and mishandle it in the neutral zone, then they can turn it up. They can catch them with their legs and get those rush attacks that they want so much, but it all starts with tighter, more efficient neutral zone play, which is not very much fun to you. If I'm a player, I'm like, if I'm a player, I'm like, what?

I got to be better than neutral zone. That's what you're telling me to do, but I think that will cue their counterattack game. And if we look back to Mietri also, game one, I was there, fun, awesome atmosphere. Right. Ice was unbelievably bad, like very bad. and the idea that if the ice was better, there'd be way more offense,

I kind of looked at the other way. I think the bad ice contributed to the offense because all the skill players couldn't make plays. They had to take extra amount of time to settle the puck down or flag it down or trap it. And by then the checking was there. So I think the reason there were so many turnovers in game one and so much offense available is because everyone was fighting the puck,

not because the ice was nice and flat to make pretty plays, but because the players who had it had trouble with it. And I think as the ice has gotten better in game two it was better, game three it appeared to be better, I think that lends itself to more crisp play in the neutral zone, which hurts Vegas. I think the scratchier it can get in the neutral zone, the better off Vegas could be.

And I think the ice contributed to that in game one. Yeah, no, for sure. Well, you're right. I mean, obviously neutral zone play might not necessarily be the sexiest topic of discussion. But I think for Vegas, it really has been their bread and butter all year, but especially this postseason. And if you're Jared Golan, it's kind of easy to sort of point to that. And there's a lot of evidence to be like, yeah, we need to get back to playing this certain way because it clearly made us very effective. So maybe that's an easier selling point for him than it would be for other teams.

The only challenge, though, is when you watch Wash play, and they play well, and you touch on earlier, their best players, their three centermen. Eller, Baxter, Kuznetsov, they do a really good job. of busting up good forechecks. Because they get down so low. So they're not like hanging out even above the hash marks in like that little pocket. Like they're down on the goal line. They're down below the goal. And when they could take a two foot pass or they can take a loose pocket pull out of a pile

and kind of single-handedly skate it up and out of trouble and then have enough pace of their game that they can catch their forwards and make a play on transition, that's tough to defend. Like I'm in there forechecking. I'm right on top of the puck who's now. Netsoff pulled out those little pirouette spin, three strides, and now I'm chasing him, and I can't catch them, and now all the structure, and our neutral zone is kind of gone

because, you know, we're in pursuit, that's hard to defend. That's hard to assist them against, and all three guys, and Nick Baxter doesn't really play very fast anymore, but fast enough, smart enough. And Kuznetsov and Eller, who has, you know, discovered his game at the NHL level this playoff at teams, they can, They can break up a whole bunch of good plays just because they get so low in their own end and then skate the puck nicely out of trouble all the way up the ice to make something happen.

It's tough. You can do everything right and then still not come up with the puck. Yeah, no, you're right. And it's all obviously relative, like even Baxter who's not necessarily that 100%, like his skill level and ability to create a play on that breakout compared to your average defenseman is obviously way higher. And no, you're right. I mean, it's just a unique problem for Vegas to deal with.

not many teams have the chess pieces to pull that off. But, I mean, it's remarkable watching some of these games. You know, you see it a lot when teams are on power plays, when one of their top forwards is deep in the zone, and then he's skating it out and making a play through the neutral zone. But with Kuznetsov, it feels like every time I'm looking, he's like kind of at his own down low in the circle, just making a play and then skating it out,

and you rarely ever see that from opposing forwards. So, yeah, I mean, it'll be fascinating to see what Vegas does to counteract that. MJ, let's take a quick break here to hear from a sponsor, And then there's a few other things I want to hit before we get out of here. Let's chat a bit about today's sponsor the Hockey Pudio cast Indochino. Indochino is the world's largest made to measurements of a company. They make suits and shirts made to your exact measurements for a great fit. The thing that I love most about Indochino, having used them for months now myself, is how personalized it is.

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wedding season. But really, I mean, you don't really need an excuse to look and feel your best. So just go to Nogino and let us let them know that the PDO cast sent you and you're set. Now let's get back to Mike Johnson. Okay. The other thing that I find fascinating is, you know, leading up to this series, I was looking at the line matching and how. both the defense pairings and the forward lines would be deployed.

And one thing that I think has been fascinating as it's gone on has been what Barry Trots has done to get Ovechkin and now Kuznetzoth that he's back away from that matchup against Vegas' top line. Now obviously, you know, pretty much whenever Ovechkins come across the boards, he's seen Nate Schmidt and Braden McNab, and it'll be tough to get away from that matchup. But as these games have gone on, a smaller, percentage of the time, Ovechkin has spent against William Carlson and Jonathan Marcia still and Riley Smith. And I think that's for the better because that's meant a lot of

backs from Oshy and Rana against those guys. And I think that's been the big story here. You know, obviously Ovechkin's scoring goals is awesome and all the excitement you see from that. But at the end of the day, I think that the best players really have been, I mean, Oshi has just been a record ball. Like you just watch what he's doing. It seems like he's always been around the puck, kind of that functional physicality where he's been using his body. to actually create possession changes and stuff like that. And I mean, I think that has been sort of the big key here where, you know, we want to talk about the top guys and who's getting the better of that.

And obviously Vegas's top line needs to score some goals. But at the end of the day, the supporting players for Washington with that second line have really stuck out and just dominated that matchup regardless of who they've been playing against. Yeah, and I think it's worth revisiting, you know, the perception of Nick Baxter. You're right, T.J.O.O. She has been amazing. I mean, this is, you know, just, you're right, around the puck, in front of the nets, along the walls. You know, he's very strong in those puck areas. Not blessed being the fastest, we know he's got great hands, but he's not the fastest,

but he's just got that lower center of gravity that he comes up with a lot of pucks, and he's been terrific. Vrana, who can really skate and adds a nice element, especially when they're playing against Carlson, because he just adds speed to the puck pursuit and to the defensive. defensive side of the game, even if he's not quite as savvy with it yet as his linemates. But Nick Baxter, who deservedly is considered one of the all-time best passers ever, one of the all-time best power play quarterback's ever, he's an amazingly efficient two-way centerment.

And because he played with Ovescans so long, and because they haven't won, I think the idea is that somehow he's part of that lumped in disappointment of the playoffs. and of course he is but he's in a I don't think like all Swedish Stenerman but like he such a smart

defensive player and that he just understands how to how to negate other teams good players and the fact that he can go up against Carlson

and Marshall and Smith who by so many metrics were one of the best five on five lines this year and even through the first few rounds of the playoffs and kind of

not erase them but make them pretty quiet especially outside that first game, that's Nick Baxter. He's just so smart out there where he puts his body, where he puts the puck, where he knows where everyone else is, and you're right. So that second line for Washington has had a huge impact. They've been great.

Defensively, chipped in a little bit off defensively as well, especially in the power play. And then you contrast that second line for Vegas, where they have a couple of their veteran guys, Perra and Neil and Eric Holla who had 29 goals this year, and we know James Eel picked a nice puck out of the air and snipes one as he does,

but David Perrault's got no goals in the playoffs. Eircala has not certainly scored at the pace he did during the regular season. And if top lines kind of get washed out and they get so much attention paid to them, you need somebody else, and it can't just be the fourth line, which has been a nice surprise for Vegas,

but that's not really sustainable. So if you're looking who's got it, if Vegas going to win the cup, they need way, way more out of that second line, way more. No, you're right. I mean, I wonder if Baxter was from Ontario or something like that, how would we be talking about him and some of the stories you'd be reading because, I mean, yeah, like, you know, he scores a goal or his line scores. Like, he's going down and he's celebrating with a team by, like, you know,

tapping gloves with his offhand. and after the celebration when they beat Tampa Bay, he's shaking hands with him. Like, he's clearly very, very banged up, but it hasn't really affected his efficiency on the ice. Maybe it has in terms of the puck handling, but just in terms of those defensive responsibilities, as you mentioned,

and sort of just positional awareness and sort of doing all those little things that add up. He's been remarkable. And, yeah, I mean, that second line that you mentioned there with Neil and Perron and Tuck and Hala and all those guys that they've been alternating there, they've been outscored 4-1 at 5-1. live in the series and that's kind of yeah in a series this tight where there's so little

wiggle room and so little margin for error that all odds up especially when you're going you know we talk a lot about forward matching and how these lines are going but i think it's more more important against sort of the defense pairings right because that's where you're going to get the most whoever gets orbicked and juice yeah you have they got to make something happen like they they have to they have to be in the offensive zone right like i know brooks orbricks having a renaissance loving with a lot of people for, you know, admittedly he's a tough player and he's pretty good at killing penalties. And I know he scored the first goal in 220 games or something like that.

He still doesn't move it very well out of his own end. He still has trouble playing one-on-ones with speed. And Juice, I think, can skate a bit better. There are moments when he looks like he's young and he's, you know, he's uncertain of the moment. and how to play. So if you're, whether you're Paula and Neil and Perrin,

whether you're Cote Eakin and Tuck and Carpenter, whoever it is, like, they've got to try to find a way to dig in against that matchup because you're right, the forwards, especially in this series, when everyone can skate, and everyone, of course, is committed to playing defense

and being as hard as they can, the difference really is in how skilled the defense men are that you're going up against. And so if you're, you know, If you're going to get Orloff and Niskin in, it's going to be a tough matchup. Those guys are really good. They're really good at playing defense and stopping you from doing what you want to do. They're much better than the third pair guys, and that's who you have to try to take advantage of.

Yeah, no, it's remarkable. I think if you told Vegas heading into the series, like, yeah, your fourth line is going to generate three goals in 25 minutes. You'd be like, okay, awesome, that's cool. And then you'd be like, unfortunately, the trade-off is your top line. We'll have two goals in 45 minutes. They'd be like, oh, crap, we're going to be in trouble. And yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, though, it is one of those things where as much as we say, like, yeah, that second line's going to have to be better and they're going to have to do all this stuff. Like, they still rely on that top line quite a bit and they're going to need more from them.

I think generating two goals of five-on-five so far through three games is just not enough for them to get by in this series and they're going to need a bit more from them for that. And yeah, in terms of the defense pairings, I want to talk a bit about Shay Theodore because, you know, he was a big story coming out of game three. obviously had a couple blunders there, and especially the Devante Smith-Pelly goal that kind of put that game away. He got a lot of flack for that, and I know that, you know, I've been talking about all postseason, and after-day... I think he's pretty good.

He's awesome, but... Like, I know he, like, he mishandled a puck, which maybe it's appropriate because Devante Smith-Pelly missed him in game one, that resulted in a goal. I mean, it's back and forth they go. But when I watch Chase Eudor, you know, I haven't heard everything you said about him,

despite being a very faithful listener, of course, but, like, the way he, like, to me, he defends, like, better than Nate Schmidt, the blue line, which I don't know if all the numbers bear that out, but the fact that, like, his gap is so tight, he plays with so much confidence moving up in the play, and where most guys will meet the player, even if they're good at, what, five feet outside the blue line, a really good defense. Yep. I should say, Shadegh, I meet in guys, you know, halfway between the red and the blue. like 15, 18, 20 feet outside the blue line, he's gaping up and taking one-on-one's there,

which is the worst place to get met as a forward. You don't want anything to do with a guy challenging you there, because that turnover could be a breakaway. So the way he defends with his legs getting up, closing gaps, I love his modern era physicality, which means he doesn't really hit people. But he's physical with his stick. You know, he checks through the hands. he's strong with his legs through the stick,

not necessarily through the body, but skating through sticks and protecting it and getting possession that way. And I think he's a great passer. I mean, he can move the puck up the ice pretty well. Again, I don't have it in front of me his zone exit percentage, but it feels like he does a nice job with that.

And then the stuff in the offensive zone, that's almost expected to me. Like the plays he made on the no-shirt goal. Like, that's what I expect the first-round defense. it's going to be kind of be able to do. That's why he was drafted. You give him time, you give him space, he makes a really nice plays. But the other stuff, without the puck, that I've been really impressed with

how well he uses his legs to defend, especially. I know he had a tough game, because every mistake is highlighted and is such great importance that it's tough to look past that, but on a whole, I think he's been very good in the playoffs, and he's been

really pretty good in the series as well. Yeah, yeah, I know. There's a couple of those obvious ones that you can kind of point to. And after game one, I tweeted, like, it's funny you mention that because after game one, I tweeted, you know, Shade Theater just does everything well. Like, it's like your modern-day defenseman where it's not just, he's going to put up the point totals and people will focus on the offensive stuff. But I think the defensive efficiency is there as well.

And then Cavs fans after game three were finding that tweet and tweeting it on and going, oh, well, not tonight. And, yeah, you're going to get some of that, but you don't want to focus too much on just the one game. But you know what to me, and I wonder, this is a legitimate question. I don't know, the answer. I'll ask you. So you can have Shea Theodore who makes

So many good plays throughout a game For example And because he makes all those plays Occasionally they don't work out well Not even talking about the Smith-Pally one Because that one, the puckstocky overskated it It happens The same reason Lars Eller couldn't put a tap in in the first game

Like you miss sometimes Is it better in a playoff Stanley Cup final to be that guy Or to be Brooks Orpick who just, you know Not to pick on Brooks But who would likely just shoot it out not make a mistake, but really not make a play either. And I mean, my take as a player,

I always want the guy who's going to make the play. Occasionally you have to make the smart dumb play, or a smart safe play, and that's being a heady player to know the difference. Like, we're two minutes left here. I don't need to make a nice crisp pass up the middle. I just need to get over the blue one. But even over seven games,

you think the numbers would add up. If you make enough good plays, your team should probably come out ahead. But funny how perception is, because it's not really about how many good plays, even if there are subtle ones guys make. It's just about avoiding how many bad plays you may make.

And only bad plays are resulting goals, because nobody cares about bad plays. I just give up chances apparently. So it's just, you wonder, coaches, management, when they evaluate these things, do they appreciate the volume of good stuff versus how it turns into better play, or is it just we like the safe guy? Because he hits people and he shoots it out.

I wonder. Well, based on the hockey people, I know. would say they'd probably favor the conservative option there, I'd imagine. But yeah, no, you're right. I mean, in a short series like this, obviously. We know 80 games. Like, obviously, that's a big enough where I'll take

mistakes all day long because I got 80 games that the volume of good outweighs the bad. The numbers have a long enough chance to even themselves out. But in seven games, you know, it's not quite as easy a question, I guess. Yeah. I mean, I'd say, you know, game three mistakes not ofstanding.

For a guy who has as much puck-moving ability and an offensive skill as Theodore does, I don't really think he makes as many of those glaring mistakes as some of his other peers do that I would lump in a similar sort of skill set. So I think it'll be fine. If anything, I'd go the other way. Like, I like in a series this tight

where Vegas has clearly struggled to generate offense, especially with their top guys on the ice, like an interesting wrinkle that they've done this postseason at times in really short spur. has been putting Schmidt and Theodore on the ice at the same time with their top guys and really just kind of throw on a fastball of the other team and just hoping to either catch them off guard or just have like one 90 second shift in the offensive zone with sustained pressure and hopefully that kind of snowballs into more and more chances for the rest of the guys in the team.

So I like to see maybe even a bit more of that because they clearly need to do something here to throw the capitals for a bit of a loop and maybe just change the way this game is being defended so I'd be I'd be fascinated for that but you know what speak one last thing on Theodore you were talking about his his zone entry denials and some of the aggressiveness there and kind of the contemporary stick work he does like the best compliment I can give him is tracking some of these games he puts me in a weird spot where I don't even know whether to mark it as a failed zone entry because it's so far into the neutral zone that he's stopped the rush that it's like this might be more of a neutral zone play but at the same time uh you know by the letter of the law

But at the same time, just theoretically, like, the other team was clearly going to try to get it into the zone, and he just stopped it before they even had a chance of doing so. So I think, you know, he's labeled as the goat after game three, but I still love Shay Theodore, and I just wanted cooler heads to prevail here a bit because I saw people really slander him quite a bit after that performance. I thought he's been really good, and I'm a big, big fan, so I'm with you. Okay, is there anything else in this series heading, looking ahead to game four and the games going back to Vegas that we should be looking

at or talking about? I mean, we've talked about sort of the top guys, we talked about defense parings, the goal of tending, like, is there anything else here? I mean, we talk so much about

the power play queuing up Ovechkin and Kuznetsov's game. Is there anything to the power play helping out Marsha, so Riley Smith, and Carlson as well? You know,

even though it's an intangible thing, the confidence and comfort you can get from picking up a point on the powerplay or even picking up good touches and chances can bleed over. And I know they've gotten a couple of powerplay goals,

you know, Deodor Rist or through tuck and stuff, but they haven't had a lot of confidence-inducing moments on the power play. We'll say that. And I wonder if that can help the top guys for Vegas as well kind of find their stride again. I think that might be something to look at for sure. And then also, I wonder, we know Gerard Golan, he loves to roll four lines, right?

And I guess when your four line is, fourth line has got some big goals, you're rewarded. You wonder if he gets away from that or, you know, shortens it up or looks to different matchups, just kind of in get away from something they've done most of the year, which is just say, here's our guys, we trust them all, they're all going to go play. And especially on the road in game four, does he jump them around, does he try to, you know, line Carlson out there against different players, matchups, defense-impaired. I just wonder if Jared Galant gets a little bit more creative

behind the bench. Well, in this series, which has been their fourth line? I can't even tell. The line with Ryan Reeves has been the top most effective unit. Yeah, it has. It has. I mean, somebody asked you the other day, though,

does this mean there's going to be a comeback for Ryan Reese kind of players? And I'm like, well, Ryan Reeves is a bit unique in the sense that yet we know he can fight and he's super super tough in that regard and he'll stick up for his teammates but for a guy who is as big as he is he skates pretty well like he gets in and around the puck fast enough so that he can use that big frame to do good things with it and they know so much of these games for the skill guys is about trying to create difficult zone entries trying to create turnovers and some of the simplicity that that four

line plays with because they're not ever going to turn a puck over. Because as soon as they get pressure, they're going to shoot it in. And something in a short three games we've seen so far burst, the willingness to just give it away and go get it, as opposed to risking a turnover, probably has helped them through the first couple of games. They haven't had to worry about navigating the neutral zone because they just kind of get it and shoot it in.

They've been physical, and because of No-Shek scored, what, an empty net goal, a brilliant play by Theodore, and the Ryan Reeves cross-check play from behind the net. But when I hear Ryan Reeves, I mean, he hadn't scored two months before the series winner against Winnipeg, NOSHA could never score two goals in a game in his life. Like, it's probably, and I hope, not for their sake,

I don't have a great series, but it's probably more likely that they won't score again than that they will. I mean, that's just given the kind of players they are. So they have been affected. They have been the offensive zone. They have been physical. Even when they do all those things, it's still kind of unlikely they're going to score

because they're just not goal-scoring players. Oh, this is going to be awesome. When people listen to this tomorrow and they have a hatchet. He comes off his first ever four-goal game. That's what I hope he does. He's one of the best guys' best interviews out there. But, you know, when you start going two months

of the regular season of that scoring, that's a prolonged route. you got to put something some stock behind yeah no you're right um yeah no i just want to make one point about the uh you mentioned the power play there a couple minutes ago and and you're right i don't want to be sort of that you know talking head guy talking about momentum and and all this stuff but it does in these playoff series there's these little moments where it does feel like stuff does swing a little bit and you look back at it and you can kind of lament missed opportunities and that game two five on three there five on three in the third period like it's one of those things where i believe

they were, what, down just the one goal at the time, and they were up one nothing in the series, obviously, and it's one of those things where if they make the most out of that and either score one goal, or maybe even two down the line, like all of a sudden, like this series, the complexion of it changes so much, right? And there's a bunch of these, like, high leverage moments in, in these series with all the spotlight on them. And that was one of those that clearly either went, which way you want to look at it, went in Washington's favor or Vegas kind of blundered.

And at the end of the day, yeah, if things don't. go their way, they're going to really wind up looking back at that one and kind of kicking themselves. But fortunately, we're through only three games here. So as bad as it's looked for Vegas lately and as good as it's look for Washington, like this stuff can swing really quickly. Yeah, their one win away in game four for being going home. Three games series, two games at home where they've only lost a couple games. Absolutely. But can you imagine, Dimitri, what the reaction would have been if Washington's five guys went out there for a minute, 15, five on three and didn't get it done. Yeah. I mean, and also reaction,

Because what would your expectation level be that they would score in a five-on-three for a minute ten? Like, I would probably think that they would score 60% of the time. If they have that much time and those guys, and they certainly would at least generate some pretty good looks. And that was probably the more disappointed part for Vegas in that moment. Hopi, I think he made one save. It was like an arista from an angle from Marcia, so not even a very dangerous shot. So, yeah, that's true. But then you think about it.

So it seems like everything's going Washington's favor, Holby is playing great, Flurry's not playing well, we're what? And insane, Hopi's save away from being an overtime in game two, and even game three was a pretty tight game when Vegas probably admittedly didn't play their best. So I think the series is still far from over. Yeah, there's going to be many of those,

high leverage moments yet to come and hopefully a lot of them don't involve you know controversy with refereeing and stuff I'm really proud of us we we went like 40 plus minutes here without talking about I think it's been since game one it's been much better for the most part like that game one there was a lot of stuff game one was game one was I mean I sat beside an official on the plane the way home from Vegas um had a great long chat and like interesting interesting stuff and um but he He did not referee in game one, but I just, I didn't like game one. And the idea that I get the mentality, right?

You get, the referees don't want to be part of the story. They don't want to decide the game. They want to decide the game. But if you're on a team that is really good on the power play, by not calling penalties, you are effectively deciding the game. Yes. You're not letting the players decide the game, because we have players that are good on the power play.

And I think the idea that it was like, the boys play and they'll sort it out and we'll just get out of the way. Like, that's not how it's supposed to be called and that's not really being impartial because, in fact, that probably favors Vegas more than Washington. So I think the second and third games have been better in that way. It's tough. We know things move fast. I can talk about the TGOXE shove on Colin Miller, which I think, you know,

Miller just laid down to try to get a penalty. He did. We can talk about when are we going to institute review for self-inflicted or teammate-inflicted high sticks? Right. Like, let's do it next year. Because they're not hard. It takes 10 seconds.

Let's not put Brooks Orpick in the box when James Neal fums himself in his face. I mean, there are things we can do quickly. But generally speaking, you're right. I think games two and three. They were pretty good. I like the Smith-Pelly call and the goalie interference on Mark Andre Fleury. Absolutely correct. I don't think it was even dirty, but he certainly went there and clipped them pretty hard.

I think they've done a pretty good job. It's hard, as fast as it is, to get it perfect. Yeah. I didn't want to open this can to him. I could go like 45 minutes on this idea of like letting the guys play it's like what's what's the point of having the 82 game regular season and then the first couple rounds of the playoffs when you get laid into the season here and all of a sudden like it's just a completely different sport being played or the idea that game changes yeah it's a different game like what all the stuff that we worked on that was effective in this set of rules you're just going to change the rules yeah yeah remember all the stuff we did very effectively they got you to this point okay let's scrap all that and let's just play prison rules Let's just go rugby style. Yeah. Exactly.

All right, MJ. Well, I'm glad we finally got to do this. Let's not let another year and a half or so pass before the next appearance of Mike Johnson. That's on you. You know I'm always around. I know you have a busy lineup of people that want to be on, me included. So whenever you're ready, you know where to find you. All right.

That was a blast, man. We'll talk soon. All right. Cheers. The hockey PDO cast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud. At soundcloud.com slash hockey pdiocast. Thank you.