The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 247: Falling Stars

Episode Date: August 3, 2018

Sean Shapiro joins the show to discuss the Dallas Stars, the roadblock in their pursuit of Erik Karlsson, what's ultimately amounted to a strangely quiet offseason for them, and whether Jim Nill and Jim Montgomery can reverse course on the franchise's recent slide. 1:40 The Karlsson trade rumours, and Miro Heiskanen 20:25 The Stars recent downward trajectory 33:10 Jim Montgomery's most important decision 40:45 Jim Nill's surprisingly quiet summer  Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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and today we're going to continue our off-season deep dive series in which we're using this free time that the summers afforded us to really kind of put a number of teams that I find interesting for a variety of reasons on the microscope. For those of you that might have missed it in the last episode, we took a closer look at the Columbus Blue Jackets, discussing the big questions to face them in their upcoming crossroad season with the great Allison Lucan.

And next week, the plan is to have Shana Goldman on to talk about the New York Rangers. Beyond that, we've also got some fun shows planned for August, including some mailbag episodes that I've alluded to in the past. And we've gotten some great questions in the mailbag. But if anything else comes up, we're always open to taking more of them. So feel free to pass them along on Twitter or via email. But that's in the future.

For now, we've got our friend Sean Shapiro from the Athletic Dallas on the show today to help me dissect the stars. Sean, I know you're taking some time off from your newfound daddy duties to come chat with us, and we greatly appreciate it. How's your summer been so far? It's been good. It's been much busier on the personal side, obviously, as you mentioned. We got the kid who's going to be Monday will be four weeks, and it's been exciting.

And that's really been the biggest part of my world so far. And thankfully, I guess thankfully the stars have not been as busy as they could have been in typical summers. So it's worked out pretty well, actually. Well, it's, yeah, I know it has. And it's interesting because, excuse me if I'm getting the dates wrong, but I believe it was like around July 4th or so that the stars had emerged as a leading candidate for Eric Carlson. And that seems like, you know, those rumors and that discussion would be a natural starting spot for us here. But it's, it's, it seems like that was kind of another lifetime ago.

It's, we're coming up on like a month now. But sort of the roller coaster ride we've gone on from, you know, the stars emerging as a leading candidate and then being replaced by the lightning. And then all of a sudden, you know, it felt like there was an imminent trade. And then now we've just kind of been radio silent on that front for the past three weeks or so. And I kind of, I joked about this on the last podcast where with Panarin and Carlson, those are the two reasons why I keep checking Twitter. I would love to take some time off. But I feel like, you know, as soon as I take a day off from checking Twitter, one of those guys is going to get traded. I'm going to miss out on it.

So it's a, I'm living there's just this kind of, it's this endless cycle of checking Twitter compulsively, even though nothing's really happening. Yeah, it was funny on my end. So my daughter was born on, she was born, wasn't born on her due date, but the due date was July 4th. And so July 4th was actually when I got the tip myself that, when I got the heads up that, hey, this is something that might happen. The stars are a leading candidate for Carlson. And so I remember at that time where I'm still checking my phone. We hadn't gone to the hospital or anything like that. And I'm just kind of, on one hand, looking at my phone, checking my text messages, looking at all this stuff.

And then on the very opposite side, I keep looking over the living room. My wife is just watching TV, just kind of waiting for like that, okay, we're going to the hospital right now. And that didn't happen for a couple days. So it was kind of a weird couple days of, in my life of work was kind of invading where, of course, as soon as we went to the hospital, I just turned my phone off and would let everything just be, just let it be at that point. But until we left for the hospital, I was kind of checking my phone and then kind of asking my wife, how are you doing? And it was just, it was, I remember, I was actually, I would talk to somebody from the Starz Friend office a couple weeks after that and said, like, well, I just expected you guys to make that trade

when we're in the delivery room. And of course they didn't. But it was kind of a wild couple days just from kind of both my family side of things. Well, I'm waiting for things to happen. and then trying to, I try to step away from work as much as I can during the summer, but it's not easy when, especially when something like that was on the docket. Like it was crazy. Yeah.

Well, and obviously, whenever you're talking about a player of a Barracolson stature, there's a ton of nuance to it. It's not as simple as just a one-for-one trade or you've got to factor in various things. And obviously, you know, it was reported that Bobby Ryan and his contract wouldn't necessarily be part of it for the deal the stars were involved in the hypothetical one or proposed one. And then, you know, it seemed like the kind of bridge they couldn't cross was ultimately the stars didn't want to part with their prize defensive prospect, Miro Heiskenon. And, you know, I've been reading a lot of your coverage, and I know you did a mailbag on this,

and you wrote about Meryl Heiskin and himself as a player and sort of the gamble that the stars are making on him as being sort of the next big defensive prospect to come into the league. so I kind of know where you stand on the whole thing, but for our listeners, they might not have, might not be aware of it, I might not have read it. Let's get into that here in terms of your standing on

whether you think that was ultimately a prudent decision for the stars to make, or whether if you were running a team, you would have felt more urgency to kind of push all the chips in and try and go swing for the fences and bring Eric Carlson in and compete for a Stanley Cup immediately. See, personally, I think they could have gotten the deal done with I think you could have gotten the deal done without including Heyskenen, just because I look at what Ottawa has and I look at really how much leverage they have. And just personally, if I'm running the stars, I don't think they really don't have as much leverage as they keep trying to push.

His contract expires after this coming season. He's obviously extremely valuable. I'm not diminishing his value at all as an individual on the ice, but his value as far as getting everyone's blue. ship prospects. I don't think they're going to be able to get that just as far as there's no way Ottawa can guarantee he's going to sign the contract extension. And without that guarantee, you're probably not going to give up as many futures as you'd be willing to give up. And I look at it from the Star's perspective and they're trying to compete and trying to build something. And they have something right now that has probably,

if you look at Jamie Ben, you look at Tyler Sagan, and obviously Tyler Sagan, I'm sure we'll talk about Tyler Sagan and his looming extension at some point here. And you look at the Radulovs and you look at John Klingberg's. And you look, they've got a window right now where they can, with their defense, their highest paid defenseman is Mark Motha. And he's making, and he's making, and he's making $4.4.9, I think. And John Klingberg's making, they still have four years of John Klingberg's ridiculous contract at $4.5.5. And he's making, he's making, they still have four years of John Klingberg's ridiculous contract at 4. Q-5. They have this window right now with a defense of Lindell, Klingberg, one more year of methad. If Heyshkinin becomes the player that he potentially can be, it's three years of less than a million, it's maybe more than a million with bonuses and such, but it's, it creates an opportunity for A, for them to be able to give Sagan that big extension without worrying next season, and B, if they need to go and be in on Panarin or being on Patoretti or anyone like, they have that opportunity because of Heishkin and because of his ability to potential to his potential and what he could turn into.

And now, we haven't seen him play in the NHL yet, so it could be an egg on my face right now, but he looks like the real deal to me. And I've talked to people who think he's the real deal. He's a kid who is won the, I'm not going to try to pronounce it because someone will make fun of me, but he was basically Finland's best defenseman. He won Finland's equivalent of the Norris Trophy as a teenager. He's the youngest winner ever for that. He was playing in the Olympics, and I know the Olympics were a watered-down competition,

but it was a competition where he was playing against guys who are pretty good in Europe and guys who are four or five years of senior. And he was, by the end of the tournament, he was playing 23, 24 minutes a night. And when he was playing in world championships, and I'm looking at him against NHL players, he held up pretty well. He handled himself pretty well. The kid's the real deal. and from

and I think it's I think it's the right decision for the stars to bet big on this kid now if they were willing if they if Ottawa said hey we'll take we want any other prospect from your system I'd do the deal right away but it's this is a team in Dallas

that has struggled to develop and struggled to build guys from within and they have a guy that if as long as they don't as long as they keep it simple and let them develop they have a chance to actually take advantage of a homegrown player that was a first round pick. And I really think the stars need to take advantage of that. And that's why I wouldn't include him the deal for Carlson.

I would throw in another first round pick. I would throw in any other prospect they want because in theory you're bringing Carlson in that first round pick is late in the first round anyway. So it's not really going to be a player of this caliber. But in a world where you could have Carlson and Heyskin it on the same team, that's a dream world for the star's defense. And it's, that's what I would push for if I was, if I was running the stars. And also, I still am not, I still don't think that the, I still don't think the centers have gotten that offer and they're not going to get that offer. They keep claiming they want because if they had gotten that offer, a deal would be done right now. We wouldn't be sitting here at August 2nd and not having to deal done. Oh, absolutely. I think, you know, regardless of what you'll hear, the senators are, you know, they're sort of feeling the pressure and they obviously kind of want a resolution that doesn't.

didn't want this hanging over their head. And it's not surprising that a lot of this stuff that has been leaking, you know, that's been a kind of common theme with senators dealings over the past handful of months and even years. But, you know, with Heyskenen, like, it's so tricky dealing with, you know, the process of gauging the value of prospects because, you know, you can really get into the trouble of sort of falling victim to the endowment effect,

especially with fans when they're talking about their own prospects, they seem to, you know, always talk them up and act like they're untouchable and it's the next big thing. And generally speaking, I feel like if you're betting against prospects for the most part, you'll wind up ahead. But everything you read about this guy seems to be super encouraging. And obviously the results so far themselves are speak for themselves. It is an immense amount of pressure. I mean, you know, playing in the NHL to begin with and being not only a lottery pick, but a third overall pick comes with its own set of expectations and pressure.

But now basically the fact that. that the stars have sort of drawn the line in the sand here and said no we're not going to trade for you know a generationally great defenseman and one of the you know i know you've referred to him as the best defenseman to come since lidsstrom and i have no issue with that it's the fact that they're you know not bringing that guy that caliber player in because of a prospect like mirro heishkin who has zero NHL games under his belt i mean that is uh a whole entirely different animal that's about as immense a set of expectations and pressure as you could possibly have as a young player. Oh, it's, it is a gamble.

I mean, let's not get that wrong. It obviously is a gamble. And for me, when I go through and I look at it, and I think I wrote this, one of the things that really sold me on, and I've talked to a bunch of people. And one of the things that really sold me on this, on Heyshkinan and just, I was, I already really liked him as a prospect. I already liked him as a player, having talked to a bunch of people. I talked to Yuri Latinan, who was the GM of Team Finland. And Yuri is obviously former star, former star at his number retired by the stars back in, I think it was back in November. And I talked to Letton and talk to Yuri right around the NHL draft.

He was here for the draft in Dallas. And one of the things about Yuri and having talked to him about player evaluation is he doesn't give any BS. He doesn't blow smoke up your ass. He doesn't. When it comes to talking to players, he's brutally honest about him. doesn't really, I mean, he doesn't have any, he's picking the world championship roster, he's picking Olympic rosters, he doesn't really have, he doesn't have to suck up to an agent or anything like that. And I've talked about other players before. I've talked about

Julius Honka before. I've talked about Essel and Dell before. I talked about players that talked about players that haven't played for the stars as well. And he's always been honest about their flaws, he's always been honest about what they could do. He's always been very honest about it. And it's not like he's someone who's just pushing this guy because he doesn't have an agenda to push the guy up. He's really just trying to build his best team. And hearing him talk about Heishkanen and him, him struggling, knowing Erie and talking to him, him struggling to kind of find, he kept trying to, you could see him digging in his brain, trying to find the ways to nitpick at the kid and he couldn't. And those are the type of things. That's what really sold me on it,

where, and Lenton was a guy who was obviously during his NHL career was, he was considered the fixer on those stars teams in the 90s. When a line wasn't going, he was put on that line because he made them go. And he was the guy who, when a player wasn't working well, you'd put him in practice with him because of the guy you could fix everything because of attention to detail. And the fact that he's struggling to find flaws in this kid's game, and I know he's looking for them just because that's what he does. That was what really sold me. when he's looking at him as, okay, this kid can play in the NHL right now. This kid can play. It's going to be tough.

There's going to be some learning curve, obviously, but he really has potential to be, if this timeline works out well by the end of this season, to be a guy who can be a top four guy in the NHL by the time he's 20. Yeah, no, it's definitely. And I think we're going to see that firsthand this coming season. But it's, I don't know, I think I might be a bit more, a bit more bullet. on the idea of what adding a guy like Carlson could mean for this stars team in particular is sort of the position they're currently in in this timeline with their franchise. And you know, you mentioned Tyler Sagan's impending free agency after this season.

And I imagine, you know, we'll see. It's quite possible that an extension happens. But, you know, for the top players who are as competitive and as successful as a guy like Tyler Sagan is, I'm sure he wants to see sort of the team around him. be put in a position to succeed. And, you know, if he's going to sign a long-term extension, kind of have a blueprint there, it would be like, okay, you know,

for the rest of my prime here, I'm actually going to have a chance to compete for a Stanley Cup. And betting on a 19-year-old defenseman to step in and move the needle that much right away is a bit of a kind of dicey proposition to me, whereas, you know, obviously if you're talking about a guy like Carlson, injuries aside and age and all that, if he stepped into this lineup,

I mean, just do allure of, having him in Klingberg as a one-two punch and, you know, potentially, I know there's going to be a bit of overlap on special teams or whatnot, but you could really kind of theoretically go like, okay, for like 48 of the 60 minutes, maybe even up to 50 minutes, we're going to have one of those two guys out on the ice. And, you know, obviously another big need for the stars is kind of some of that secondary scoring. And I know a guy like Artemi Panarin might be more interesting to some as a potential trade candidate for them. But at the same time, you know, there's a time. very few defensemen can drive offense, but I think the ultimate point here is, is Eric Carlson is one of those rare exceptions that from the blue line could sort of single-handedly help make secondary and tertiary guys more explosive offensive offensively than they were otherwise just by getting the puck up to them quicker and in better positions to score.

So I don't know, it's balancing all those things and going for the risk or worse reward and sort of, you know, with all these players they have right now in tow, I think the stars fancy themselves at least as, you know, on that playoff precipice and trying to make it even if it's as a wildcard. So you can't necessarily have an entirely future-oriented look as well because you have to deal with a now. But I understand sort of the idea of, listen, if Heishkenen plans that pans out, we've got a cost-controlled asset at a very valuable position for many, many years to come who's ascending as opposed to Carlson who's approaching 30 and has the ankle injuries and will be paid significantly more as well. Yeah, I mean, the 48, that's when anyone ever asks, okay, why would the stars go after Carlson?

You hit the nail right in the head there before. Do you get 48 minutes a night of Carlson and Klingberg? That's a one-two punch that's tremendous down the right side. No one in the NHL is going to be able to compete with that as far as depth and puck-moving defensemen. I'm also, I'm not anti-trade for Errik Carlson. I'm anti, my view of it is it can be done because I just don't think. think there's the, I don't think the market is there with him. I just don't think the market is there where you're going to have to give a guy up like that. I think would you have to part

with multiple picks? Yes. But I'm, that's like, I'm willing to do that. I'm willing to give multiple picks. I'm willing to give, if I'd let them look at my prospect pool and take any guy they want other than Aishkinin and all of a sudden the stars do become a better team with Eric Carlson. I just think a deal can be done without Heyskenen because Hado was not. I, getting that offer. I just don't see it happening. And as time continues, that offer is going to, that offer is going to, as time continues, that the chance of him signing extension becomes less and less. And so you can get something done without giving up your, your, your top to your guy, your top to your prospect. And I also think the, for this from the stars perspective, too, you also have to

remember that this is a team that really needs to, they need to get that secondary scoring. And Carlson can help that, but they really need an answer for their second line. And do they have that in house right now? Maybe. It's a huge maybe. You've obviously, if we look at their first line as you're going to play Ben, Sagan, and Radula off together, great. Fun to watch. They'll put up their points. But the star's big problem last year, for anyone that didn't pay close attention to them, was that that top trio and then Klingbury on defense got burned out having to carry everything themselves. themselves. They were basically, and it was an eight-game losing streak that really doomed the stars that really knocked them from a playoff team to a non-playoff team. But what it was was

something that built up to that was those guys got burnt out. And when it became sinker swim time for the secondary scoring, they hadn't had to swim all year and all of a sudden they couldn't do it. So the star's big thing is how do we make sure we have secondary scoring? Right now, if you're playing with your pen and paper right now, I look at their second line as Matias Yanmark, Jason Speza, Val Nchuschen. Could it potentially be the answer? Yes, but that's betting big on A,

Jason Speza, really having a bounce back year, and he certainly, I think, will be better playing for a coach that doesn't hate him. And we're also betting on who knows how good Valenuchikin will be coming back after two years in the KHL. Nishuiken's a guy who, I think there's a lot of good tools there. I just don't know how well,

no one's ever been able to get the most out of those tools and maybe this coaching staff will be able to. So do they have the second line that could work right now? Maybe, but if Panarin's available, sign me up, go after Panarin right now. If even patch ready, I mean, for me, them getting somebody who they can bring in to turn that second line into an actual threat

does so much and it also takes that burden of that burden of scoring off that top line that they get even better as well. That's how I look at those the big thing for the stars right now and what Jim Nill is probably looking at right now before September before we get into training camp.

Well you touched on a number of things there that I would like to kind of unpack but also use as an opportunity to pivot from this Carlson discussion anymore. Of course. I kind of talk about the coaching change they went through this summer and sort of expectations for next year and kind of looking back also at what went wrong towards the end of last year to kind of learn from

that and sort of evaluate where this team is currently at and how much of that was, you know, fixable stuff, how much of that was actual kind of underlying issues that are going to manifest themselves moving forward as well. But, you know, it's, I've said it many times on this show before. I don't know how you felt covering that team on a day-to-day basis. But Kenny Hitchcock, there's no doubt, is a great coach, an all-timer, you know, his track record speaks for himself, and especially early in the year, they were, you know, they were having very positive results under his system and under his style of play, and it was tough to argue with it, but at the same time, just watching the stars, I couldn't help but just lament the sort of the

memories of what they look like in that 2014, 2015, and 2015, 2016 seasons, and how they were sort of this game center live darling where whenever they were on everyone was tuning in to watch them and they were the talk of the league with their uptempo high octane style and then all of a sudden seeing that pace kind of grind to a halt under get hitchcock's famous uh defensive style it was just it was really jarring and it was actually at times kind of upsetting to watch just because i i just couldn't help shake that those memories of how fun that uh those old stars teams were i don't know covering them and watching them up close on a day basis where you feel in that as well?

Yeah, last season was a bit frustrated to cover. Just as far as there's a couple things about the stars that are that last season, that top line, and this goes back to, we talked a little, touched already on the lack of depth, the biggest thing with Hitch. And Hitch deserves credit for a couple. There's a couple things Hitch deserves credit for that the stars will benefit from. Tyler Sagan playing in all situations. Tyler Sagan getting better defensively.

Those are the type of things Ken Hitchcock should get credit for and Tyler Sagan's paycheck will be even bigger because of that. But the only players allowed to show any creativity in this lineup last year were those four players we mentioned

before, the Bens, the Radjolovs, the Klingbers. No one else was allowed to play with any creativity. Everyone else had to play within this system of, we do this, It's very regimented. We make sure box one, two, and three are checked before you even think about doing anything outside of the lines. And it just drained all creativity out of that team. And it turned some players who had some potential creativity into kind of robots that just went up and down the ice and kept their heads down and looked at basically, okay, if we, as long as we're not getting scored on here, we're okay.

It looked like a group of forwards in particular that never really cared about scoring or being attacking or anything like that. Like they were under Lindy Ruff. Matias Yanmark, obviously he was a guy who was coming back from injuries. So he comes a little bit of an asterisk, but he's a guy who kind of had some of the creativity sucked out of him. Jason Speza didn't have the creativity sucked out of him,

but Titch basically just kept dragging him deeper and deeper into the lineup and he slowed down. Age gets everyone eventually. but Speza, I always compare Speza to that guy who's like the old person who's going down the stairs and of course it's going to be a little bit slow, but Hitch just decided to kind of kick him down the stairs and made it even worse. Yeah. No, it's, yes. Yeah, no, I think that's a good way to put it.

It's, you know, with Jim and Gumbry, I know that you had a chance to talk to him a little bit and do a Q&A with him. And obviously, you know, there's only so much you can actually glean from that. and we'll kind of have to wait to see how this first season unfolds. You know, coaching the NCAA is one thing, and his track record is all well and good, but it's going to, we'll kind of have to wait to see what he's going to be like at the NHL level and how that'll translate. You know, it's obviously encouraging that his time at the University of Denver where he got to coach future NHL talents like Dan Hinen and Will Butcher and Henrik Borgstrom,

but I'm always all for I'm kind of lean towards, even if it's a bit of a kind of unknown quantity, is certain uncertainty involved. I much favor the idea of going the college AAHL route with an unproven coach who could potentially be good versus sort of the NHL motto of just taking old NHL coach retreads and just kind of recycling them and passing them around the league. So at least, you know, it very well could not wind up working out for the Star's decision to do that. But I like the thought process behind going that route as opposed to bringing in a guy like

L.N. Vigno or someone who's been around the block already and we sort of know what to expect. For sure. There's two things I really like about Montgomery coming in. One, I really like, I've went through and watched a lot of film from his teams at Denver. I liked how his teams play hockey. I watched watching his teams at Denver going through and looking at them. It's fun to watch. The defensemen get involved.

The puck possession's important. He is, they basically, they want to play with the puck. It's not a system where it's about survival. it's about making the other team worry about survival. And I like watching him play. I really like watching his teams play at the collegial level. Now, how that translates to the NHL, we'll see how well that translates to the NHL.

And obviously, he's never coached, he's never coached professionals at this level. So we will see how that pans out. The other thing I really like about Jim Montgomery is I really like his, at least so far it's perceived and I guess we'll see it in person. I really like his willingness to adapt to things. It's one thing to come in and a lot of, if you bring in a veteran, NHL coach or a lot of of NHO coaches in general, well, they may say they're open to ideas, it very much is their

way or no other way. For example, how Ken Hitchcock work with his assistant coaches? Well, Ken Hitchcock would work with his assistants and talk with them and take ideas from them. Really, at the end of the day, it was more about the assistants coming to Hitch's idea than Hitch accepting their idea, if that makes sense. Right. Montgomery, on the other hand, I love what he's done with his coaching staff so far.

For one, so the person who I actually had penciled in as my, if I was making this hire, was Todd Nelson. Before they even started announcing candidates or anything like that, I looked at Todd Nelson for the coach who was in Grand Rapids. The Grand Rapids Riffins coach spent a cup of coffee basically as the Oilers coach during that odd, really odd situation. But Montgomery goes and hires a guy who was another candidate for the job he got. As a guy who brings in a guy who, when he coached the griffins, Todd Nelson won a Calder Cup using five forwards on the power play. He keeps, he brings in Rick Bonas, who is the Lightning's penalty kill and defensive coach. He's brought in these people who, if you look at their resumes and you look at,

experience, he's not intimidated by having these voices in there. I think that's something that a young coach could run into. I mean, not a young, but a new NHL coach could run into, and he's not run into that. He's brought those guys in. He's talked to me quite a bit about just being open to having these ideas and bring these ideas. And I really like that adaptability. And I think that's something that I'm hoping personally just because it's more fun for me to cover a team that wins. is it's something that I think can play into being willing to adapt in a game. And that's something that Ken Hitchcock really wasn't able to do anymore. When a line isn't working, okay, we're going to shuffle this up.

When a defense pair isn't working, we're going to shuffle this up. Or, hey, your third pairing is having a great game. This is the game we should elevate them. And I think Montgomery's ability and willingness to adapt and be willing to accept that we're not always going to stay with the status quo. I think that works really well with his style of we're going to attack, we're going to worry about putting the other team on their heels. I'm excited to see how it works because it's, for first of all, it's fun to see.

And B, if it doesn't work, what else can really, I mean, stars have missed the playoffs eight out of the last 10 years. It's not like, it's not like, it's not like works. I mean, I know they had the best record in the Western Conference a couple years ago, but it's not like we're talking like a team where there's much that can be lost. Yeah. I wonder how that 2015-16 team is going to be remembered because, as you mentioned, yeah, that was like one of the few instances in the past decade that this organization has had success. But, you know, one thing is to remember them as sort of that exciting offensive juggernaut.

They were. And the other thing is like, I don't know, sometimes it just, they kind of get painted as this disappointment because they ultimately fell short and people expect that, you know, that style of play can't translate to postseason success. But they were ultimately one home game away from making it to the Western Conference final, which is a massive step. So it's kind of funny to see how as time goes on, how people remember them and how we look back at that point in history and sort of the facts versus what is remembered. Well, I mean, I always, when you go back through revisionist history, you just wonder, okay, if Carly Letton or Anteemie can stop a puck in game seven, what happens? Because then they go into the Western Conference final, and I think they beat San Jose. I just, I look, I mean, obviously, we don't know for sure, but I think they beat San Jose.

And then in theory, they play that Pittsburgh team in the final. And that's a, that's a fun hockey series to watch. Just, it's, it's, you just look back, okay, that would have been a fun. series to watch. Maybe Pittsburgh wins, maybe Dallas wins. Who cares? Either way, it's a fun hockey series to watch. And we're kind of denied that because of the, that was the game. The stars were still figuring out their goaltending then. And the goaltending did take a little, the year after, the year after when they dropped and missed the playoffs, the goaltending took a little bit more of a got a little bit more than a black guy than it should have. But either way, when it came to crunch time,

if the star is going to just got in a save, what happens? And that's, that's the thing where you look back and you just wonder, that's the biggest thing that I look back, and I think of that team is what could have been. Because not only was that, the other thing to look back on that team is, if they win that game seven, one thing a lot of people don't remember is,

if they win that game seven against St. Louis, Tyler Sagan's healthy for game one of the Western Conference finals. Tyler Sagan only played one game in that playoff, in that playoff series, in that entire playoff so far, one game. And if he comes back healthy and they get him back, all of a sudden you start looking,

this is a team that can win a Stanley Cup that year. Yeah. And it would have just been, we were denied that because three minutes into the game, three or four minutes into the game, they're down two nothing or whatever. Yeah, it's kind of similar to what we saw this year with, I mean, obviously Nashville made the Stanley Cup final year before, so it's a bit different. But sort of like you get into that game seven and everyone's super excited about it at home playing Winnipeg and then all of a sudden Pickerina gives up two just brutal goals

like in a matter of minutes and it's just like, oh, well, this is over. and it's just, it's funny how, you know, we can put so much time and effort and thought into all this stuff. And at the end of the day, it comes, you know, something as simple as just execution and your goalie stopping the fuck is what it ultimately all comes down to. Yeah. And it just, just if say you can transpose things, say the stars have Ben Bishop two years earlier, which they think stars have tried to get Ben Bishop before, before they finally landed. They tried to get him a year earlier at the draft and trade for him then. And you just wonder, okay, say they had Ben Bishop. just using Ben Bishop as example because that's who they ended up with.

Or you put any goalie who's put any other goalie in there. And okay, say they had that goalie in that moment, what happens? Yeah, yeah, looking back at those teams and then, like, kind of trying to reconcile the fact their goalies were anti-Nemi and Kerry Lettman is a tough bill to swallow. And it's, you know, it's obviously kind of a bit of a black mark against Jim Nils your resume. But at the same time, so much of this league struggles with the evaluation of goalies and trying to find that right formula in that.

so it's not like it's necessarily an isolated problem to him. But, you know, I want to get back before we move totally away from Jim Montgomery and sort of the task ahead for him. You know, you mentioned adaptability there, and I think that's the right word because that's ultimately what I think the, you know, that and communication, I guess, are sort of the most important skills that an NHL head coach can have. But, you know, he has a fascinating job ahead of him because, you know, when you look at this roster, and we've touched on it so far,

it's very clear that at least at the top of the depth chart, there's quite an immense amount of talent here and there's a lot of interesting pieces to play with, and then there's a lot of uncertainty and unknowns as you move down the depth chart and a lot of, you know, oh, if you squint hard enough and this potentially glass half full approach comes through, all of a sudden something magical could happen here,

but there is also, I'm sure, going to be a point in the season, and we went through this last year with Hitch, where the big question of whether those three guys up top with Sig and Ben and Radjolov whether they should be playing together and or whether it would be a more valuable approach to split them up and spread the wealth and maybe depending on what combination you wanted to go with maybe have two or even three scoring lines involving those guys I don't know like where do you fall on on that because they were clearly successful last year playing together I believe they had 600 some odd minutes together at five on five

and, you know, they outscore the opposition quite a bit. Their underlying numbers from a shot share perspective weren't necessarily as inspiring as you think, but it's clear that three guys that talented are going to make it work and dominate whenever they're out there. But just based on sort of the other pieces around them, I do wonder whether it would be more advisable, at least during stretches of the season, to split that up and try to help help out that supporting cast rather than relying on, you know, Jason Spence at 35 years old to suddenly turn back the clock or Valerie Nachushkin to show us something that he hasn't yet at this point. I personally, as fun as it is to watch them together and I would put them together late in the game and on the power play and stuff like that. In my personal view, if I'm setting a lineup, your best option is to split them up.

I look, I mean, let's look Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is the prime example of that. And obviously Crosby and Malcolm play the same position. So it's a little bit different. but you look at guys who they both drive their own lines. And you have three guys who can drive their own line. So do you put all three of them on a separate line? No, I think you probably keep two of them together.

But Radulov can drive his own line. Sagan can drive his own line. Ben can drive his own line. And I think you maximize value by putting one of them with, whether it's say you put Netsushkin with Ben and Sagan. you could put even Brett Ritchie with Ben and Sagan, which is not my first choice, but you could do something like that.

And I think whoever that third person is, they're going to get some points. They're going to, as long as they're in the right spot and they know what they're doing, you'll let those other two are going to drive the attack anyways. And I think if you're going to, for the ultimate construction of this lineup, particularly any get to the playoffs,

where matchups become even more important and we're figuring out, okay, who's going to be able to create this and that and everything. I think you're at your best. chance if you have one of those guys on a second line or so-called second line, one B line, whatever you want to use, where they actually are creating a bit more. Now, I'm sure some people disagree with me and personally it would be more fun for all of us to watch them play on the same line, but there's there's only one puck, right? There's only one puck. So it's, you have,

you have somebody, if you have, when you have them on the ice, even if that first lines together and they play 25 minutes that night, they play 25 minutes that night, if you put one of them on the second line and that first line only plays 23 minutes and then that second line plays 20 minutes. That's my math is terrible, but that's 40-something minutes of having a play, having argued maybe the best player on the ice depending on who you're playing that night. Yeah. No, and we see time and time again that it's obviously all this is sort of a value added exercise and it's like at the end of the day, especially when you don't have last change, it's so much easier to just load up and most teams do have at least one, you know, reliable

defensive pairing and forward unit that can match up with the defensive responsibilities. And if you allow the opposition to really just load up all of their defensive approach against those guys, they're still going to get theirs ultimately, but at what cost is the question. And I think, you know, it definitely does make more sense to split them up, although I understand even if you're fan of the stars, maybe you're not as wild about that because just watching them is there were certain moments last year and i really felt like you know there were times where it felt like the chemistry or whatever was off and they were trying to figure out how to make it work because all three of those guys wanted to puck on their stick but there were times where it just

felt like there were this overwhelming force and it was like oh my god like if this can keep going like i don't even understand how you even slow them down so it's it's it's tantalizing but it's going to be how he handles that and how he maximizes those assets is ultimately i think what's going to determine whether this first season is a success or not for Jim Montgomery under the home. Yeah, and I mean, we can just put it, put it simply this way. Who needs Alexander Radjol. Let's say we're going to keep bent, say we're going to keep the left wings and centers together. Who needs Alexander Radulov more? Jason Speza or Tyler Sagan? Just, I mean, like, we can just put it out that way. If we're, if we're looking at the top

two right wings and say it's the two Russians, Radulov and Netsuzyushkin, who needs Alexander Radulov more to succeed? It's clearly Jason Spez. And so that's, that's, that's another way to look at it. How do you maximize more out of that second line? it takes something from that first line. And while Valerine Atchuskin may be a bit of a downgrade from Radulov, you can't really have that much of a downgrade when the other two-thirds of line are Ben and Sagan. No, it's true. But I do wonder, and obviously, I don't know if this might be a bit sacrily,

it's just because of how much success they've enjoyed playing together over the years. But actually just, you know, if you're thinking about this from the perspective of sort of complementary skill sense or whatnot, I actually like the idea of Radilov playing with one of the, Ben or Sagan and splitting those two guys up because I think what Radhielaw obviously does best is sort of the puck position game, but also I think he's just an immensely talented playmaker. And you ultimately want, you know, I like the idea of a guy like Taylor Saygan

being on the receiving end of those passes and being able to finish it as the trigger man. So maybe you go with those combinations instead and split Sagan and Ben up, which I would experiment with as well moving forward. Yeah, either way when I look at it I look at it I look at Sagan with one or the other I look at either okay we're going to move one of Sagan's still with Sagan's with Radula

or Sagan's with Ben and then we move with the other one down because that's how I look at those two because I think there's I if we do the left wing if we play with the left wing we move Yannmark up there maybe and then and then Ben's working with Speza and Nitchiegen

and maybe that's a big line that can do a little bit of work down there so I do I do agree with that standpoint as far as I like I keep Sagan with one or the other, but I do, Sagan and Radula are fun to watch together. Even more so, Jamie Ben's a great player, but Sagan and Radulov are a bit more of, you know what I mean?

When I say just dynamic playing each other. Jamie's a good player, but it's not as much of the must-see TV dynamic. Right, that's for sure. You know, I do want to talk to you a bit about Jim Nill because, you know, for years now the running joke online has been that, you know, they're the off-season change. champions and he's uh you know he always gets a lot of love he i feel like he had just sort of a universally high uh approval rating online from from people in twitter for countless off seasons

and it's been interesting to see how the dialogue has changed a little bit over the past years i know that uh you know your your colleague dom on the athletic uh i believe today actually posted um you know the front office confidence rankings that uh fans online voted on and You know, Jim Nell and the stars were all the way down to 20th, which was a massive departure from the past in particular. Something you alluded to earlier was, you know, fans were particularly low or critical of this regime's ability to draft and develop young talent. It's after how poorly things and how much things went off the rails last year towards the end where they went, I believe, 4, 8 and 4 in March, and really, while they were to look like they were going to be a playoff team, all of a sudden, everything just fell apart and they missed. and it was a massive disappointment based on the roster they had.

I have found it interesting that for the most part, they've been pretty patient or pretty okay with just bringing this stuff back. Now, obviously, it might not be for a lack of effort, being involved in their Carlson talks, and I'm sure they've got a bunch of other things they've been working on that might not have anything to show for at this point, but it's not for a lack of effort. But at the same time, you know, their moves this summer have been

what they bring in Blake Komota basically replace Andrew Russell, they bring in a backup goalie in Anton Hudobin to replace Kari Lettenen. They bring in Roman Polack, who will likely be a seventh defenseman if everything goes well for them. So it's very small moves in the margins, which typically we see when teams have the type of disappointment, especially late in the season like the stars had last year

where you go into the offseason with that really bitter taste in your mouth. We typically see teams overreact and front off is kind of panic and make a bunch of changes just so they can appease their fans and also have something to show for it and be like, well, this is why next season will be different. Whereas for the most part, things, especially up top, are intact with this team.

Is it surprising to you that it's kind of manifested itself that way, or did you expect heading into this offseason that they would be more active and make more sort of important changes to the roster? I keep waiting for that other move. I'll be honest. I'll be

waiting for that other move. It's something where it's now if they go into October 7th, 8th, whatever the first day of the season is with this roster, would I be shocked to know? But I keep waiting for them to pull off another trade. I keep waiting for them to acquire a top six forward. I keep waiting for them to, okay, we work something out. We got Carlson. I keep waiting for that to happen. And part of that obviously goes into Jim Nill's M.O. Jim Nill is to use a To use a baseball analogy, Jim Nill is like the power hitter that takes big cuts every single time. And sometimes those work out really well. Obviously, you swing big, you go get Tyler Sagan.

You go and get, and then sometimes they really come back and hurt you. I mean, signing Martin Hanzel last year was just a huge mistake. But whether they make a big move or not, it's fascinating to me to see how much Jim Nill is. if they don't make a big move, Jim Nill is really putting all of his eggs in the Jim Montgomery basket because Jim Nill does not get to hire a fourth head coach, right? You don't get to even though he's technically, it's almost hilarious,

even though Jim Nill has hired his third coach. He's never actually fired a coach. Lindy Ruff's contract just expired. Hitchcock just retired, even though it was probably was pushed to that direction. Yeah, he was guided. Yes. Well, it was guided. So this is his third coach, but he's never actually had to fire somebody.

So it's a weird, that's a weird dynamic part of it. But he's really putting in a lot of his eggs that Jim Montgomery, getting Jim Montgomery here, getting Valenichu Kuhn back, that Hyskin is going to pan out. He's really put a lot of eggs at these are the reasons my job is going to be safe. And for that reason, I still feel like it just, I have this lingering feeling in my head, and this is not anything that I'm reporting or anything like that. It's just the gut feeling in my head that something else gets done before September,

whether it's a trade for a top six forward, whether it's a, whether they actually pull something off and actually get that Carlson deal done. I just feel like something gets done because while Jim Nill has said he likes this team, he's okay with this team going in, there's still a hole here, and we can see it, and I know he sees it. And it's, there's, there's some what ifs and that hole could be plugged. But if you could get a certainty, a Panarin, a Panarin becomes a certainty, okay, we can fill that hole. They're missing that. And I feel like that's what's keeping them from, when you go through and you,

and you kind of slot teams in the Central Division, who do you see them? I mean, who do you see them above? I mean, obviously they're not above Nashville or Winnipeg. And then you could argue for them as a third team. But even that, even that case, you look at St. Louis got better. You look at other teams too. I mean, Colorado made the playoffs last year. So they're still missing that certainty that says,

okay, yeah, they're definitely a contender for top three spot in this division. And I think something happens, but that's just a gut feeling. Yeah, I mean, barring any other dominoes falling here, I would lean towards having them fourth in the central. I'm obviously national in Winnipeg. They're a one, two. I think St. Louis, based on the soft season they had, I feel like maybe no team at it.

more talent than they did. And I really like them hitting this coming season. And then you're right. I mean, you could look at it two ways. You could look at the fact that at best they kind of position themselves as the fourth team in that division. You could view that from the perspective of like, okay, maybe this is a sign that we should take a bit more of a cautious patient approach because in all likelihood, we're, you know,

our ceiling for next season is kind of capped based on the competition we have ahead of us. Or you could sort of, you know, if you feel like you're on the hot seat or if you feel like something needs to give, if you're a gym, all of a sudden you view that as incentive to really kind of turn turn that uh turn the crank on the aggressiveness meter up uh even further and really kind of swing for the fences to try and make something happen because you really need to force the issue so you're right i it just with his MO and sort of what we know of him as a GM and and the moves he's made it it has felt weird that they've been kind of eerily quiet but maybe as you as you mentioned i think it might just be a matter of they

like the talent in place and they're hoping that a different coach will be able to get more out of those players than Ken Hitchhunkett last season. Yeah, it's, it seems that way for right now. And we'll see. I mean, we could, for all we know, I could, we could see something happen in a week and all of a sudden, okay, hey, there's, there's this new face and, and it changes the dynamic. But it just feels there's still something missing. There's still certainty missing. There's some what ifs and some hopes, but there's still some certainty. there. And as you, it's also, it's, their off-season moves, as you mentioned earlier. Like, so it's, the off-season moves aren't bad. Hudobin is a, Kudobin is an upgrade over Lettin because he

comes in and he doesn't have the, he doesn't have the baggage Lennon had here before. And I think really Kari Lennon, who still is searching for a job, Kari Lennon's biggest problem wasn't his ability to stop Apok, his ability was, his ability was to keep it all together between the years in a big game. And so you get an upgrade in Houdobin in that case. And people in... There's apologies with a siren in the background. It's talking about stars goaltending, really.

Oh, yeah. Ignited a scene here in Vancouver. Oh, there we go. And then you bring it, and Blake Como's not a bad. I think Blake Como's actually a pretty, I don't like, maybe three years. I feel a bit uneasy about three years for Como. Right for a 33-year-old, I believe. Yeah, but yeah, but for that.

this year, you know what, it's going to be, people are going to look at it, it's going to be, it's going to be a pretty good signing. I really don't like the Roman Polack signing. I don't understand why they did it. I don't think Roman Polack is really an answer for anything, but you bring those things in and it's just, it felt like just a huge letdown from a stars fan perspective after you're one of the teams that Tavares invites to the table. That was just, and that was, and that's put kind of a bit of a shadow over all of this where even if, they, even if they made a slightly better move and got

one of the bigger names, not big name, but one of like those middle name free agents, it still would have been a let down to the fan base after, hey, we're in on Tavares. And they, and it's kind of in, oh, well, you got Blake Como. Well, I think, and that, all of that kind of ties

together with like, I guess the overarching theme here of the summer is, and why it's a bit, not necessarily off, putting a kind of eyebrow raising for me is like there seems to be this, um, imbalance from me between the way the stars have been operating and you know so they get that meeting with john tiberas which is um very few teams obviously got um you know most of the moves they make are kind of on the margins and guys on the edges of the roster that can help but ultimately won't

necessarily move the needle that dramatically and it's like they've sort of been positioning themselves as this um kind of rock solid contender that is just tinked a little bit and trying to fine tune their roster. And from what I've seen from them, what I saw from them last year and sort of projecting ahead, I feel like they are necessarily that good enough to warrant that being the extent of the move. So I'm just kind of trying to sort of put those two things together where it seems like the way they've been operating and what's actually happening in reality with their roster isn't

necessarily lining up for me. No, it's not. It's, it's not. It really is, it is missing something. And it's, I mean, the big thing and where we can talk a bit about Tyler Sagan, I mean, the big thing for Tyler Sagan and everyone wants to, I know the sides have started speaking more recently and things like that. And the big thing for getting something done with Tyler Sagan is there needs to be confidence from Sagan's camp that he's joining a winner. I mean, Sagan has a Stanley Cup. Okay, he won a Stanley Cup as a, as was he 19?

or 20. I can't remember the exact age, but he was 19 or 20 years old with the Bruins and he wins a Stanley Cup. Since he's come to Dallas, he's played one NHL playoff game with the stars. There is, they're very close to being in a situation where they become the Islanders next year. If Sagan decides, okay, I'm not going to sign, I'm going to go somewhere else, all of a sudden they're in a spot where they're little, they're better than the islanders immediately because they have Jamie Van Aradjulov, but they don't have a Matt Vars out. So they need to make a move this summer to make a move this summer to A, sell Sagan, hey, we're going, we want you to win a Stanley Cup in this window, we want you to be part of that. Or B, they really need the first couple months of the season to look like, okay, hey, everything is turning around. This really is the right fit with this coaching staff. Tyler, let's get something, maybe we can get something done at Thanksgiving.

I mean, it's, I know they've been talking, they've been talking more lately, and they may get something done before the season. But if I'm just personally putting myself in Sagan's shoes, I don't see why I sign before the season starts. And that's just my opinion. That's not, I know the sides have been talking. What do the stars want? What does Sagan want? They've been discussing things back and forth. But if I'm putting myself in his shoes, I don't see a reason to sign a long-term deal here yet. Yeah, no, and it's, it really is funny how much sort of narrative and perception can, you know, help position things and sort of cloud your judgment because that stat is crazy that you mentioned there that he has the one one playoff game as a Dallas star under his belt because it's just, you know, what I talk about with Jim Nell, it's like the perennially we think of this team as being in the mix and we like what they're doing and there's a lot to be excited about and they've been fun to watch in the past, but the actual postseason success hasn't been there. And if you're Tyler Say again, what, he's turning 27 this season. He just scored 40 goals for the first time in his career and really had an inspiring bounce back after a down season, I guess by his lofty standards the year before. And so now all of a sudden, you know, you look at it and you're like, okay, this is probably going to be the last mega contract you're going to sign if you're him. I'm sure you just like what John Tavares just went through now, that's one of those things

that you really have to think long and hard about. It's a massive decision. and I don't want to panic stars fans and I don't want to, you know, concern control or any of that. But it does kind of just feel like for whatever reason we've taken it for granted, I guess, that, you know, to say again, it's just going to be there and then to lock them up and it's going to happen. But there are a lot of moving parts here, and I do wonder as time goes on here, whether this is going to be a bigger point of emphasis or more attention is going to be directed to it from a mainstream level. since so since uh i don't have the exact numbers in front of me so i have to look this up to

completely get the exact numbers but since that trade since the trade to the stars um since we go off the date the stars traded for tyler sagan he scored the second lowest goals in the nchal in the regular season only behind ovechkin and he's got one playoff game why would he i just it's and i'm not i don't want to panic anyone because it's not a panic-inducing thing. It's a thing where the franchise needs to prove. Sagan's done his job. Sagan's done his job.

And if the stars make the playoffs last year, Sagan's in that group of 75 heart candidates. So this is not meant to panic anyone or anything like that, but you look at the Sagan situation and you look at why Tavares left. And you look at why Stamcoast, I mean, Stamcoast didn't leave, but obviously Stamcoast didn't sign before his,

last season of his contract. It's, you look at it, that's why he's put his work in, he's done his job, he has to know that the franchise is doing the job back for him because he doesn't want to lock up and sign up for eight years and then all of a sudden, Stars miss the playoffs again, he's probably got a new GM, who knows what that new GM thinks of the coach? Like, it's just, there needs to be something else from the stars, whether it's in player acquisition or something on the ice that says to Tyler Sagan, this is the place where you can actually win

because he wants to win another Stanley Cup. I've talked to Tyler about it. I know he wants to win another Stanley Cup. He's winning one Stanley Cup as a teenager is great, but that doesn't, you don't even appreciate it that much until you, I mean, if anything, it's given more appreciation for how tough it is. So it's, it's, do I think they get something done before the season?

I would, maybe, but it's, you just have to see this franchise. this franchise has to do something to lock up the player that doesn't have, and it's more than just the dollar figure. Yeah. I will say I know my listeners are quick to point out when we make mistakes, and he did have those six games in 2013-14 when they lost to the Ducks, I believe, in round one in his first year with Dallas.

He had those six games. So he has seven combined playoff games in Dallas. but I mean, why, in five years, I mean, seven, seven games is like, you know, you should be aiming higher than that, and there should be a longer track record of success with organization for a player that caliber. And you're right, I think all of those factors you laid out are very viable and very valid. And I guess we'll just, we'll have to wait to see how unfolds. I'm proud of us. We're coming up on the one hour mark here, and we didn't even talk about Julius Honka.

And that is something that I'm proud of, and I'd like to continue for the review of this podcast because... I'm fine with that. It's a very contentious topic. On the Sagan front, I think the number that was stuck in my head is he's got one, he has one playoff goal for the stars. It's seven games. He's got one playoff goal. I think that's the number that was stuck in my head for one. But yes, I'm good avoiding the other topic you mentioned.

Is there anything before we get out of here, is there anything else that we have missed in terms of pressing issues? or pressing angles that we need to consider with this Dallas Stars team. I'm excited I saw the news that the Razor is going to be back doing color commentary next season. That's going to be exciting. I think that's a much more natural fit for him and excited to tune into more Dallas local feeds and hear his beautiful vocabulary and his usage of the English Thesaurus. I do think actually that's funny.

Actually, I talked to Josh Bogorad today, who's the new play-by-play guy. I actually think it's going to be a really good, it's going to be a really good tandem, and it's going to be the best for me, and I'm not, I'm not, I could never do play-by-play, so I'm never going to judge somebody based to say I could do anything better or anything like that. But to me, when I look at it, the best broadcast duos are when both guys know what their role is, right? Right. And I think having Razor Beheaven, having Daryl Ray back in the color commentary role, he's back in a spot where he can be the eloquent person he is. He can use that vocabulary.

He can do that and not have to worry about taking up the time to where all of a sudden someone listening on the radio missed his own entry. And the guy coming in and Josh Bogorado, I think Josh is going to do a great job in this spot as the play-by-play guy. with him as far as he's he's uh he's never called he's never been a full-time n-hl play-by-play play-play guy he's called uh i think about five or six n-h-l play-by-play games he used to be the the color he used to be the uh the pre-game he was the immediate role prior was the pre-game uh pre-game and post game host for the stars television broadcast but between his minor league experience i know he's called close to a thousand games he does a really nice job actually with it and i think it's a really good fit because josh

is a guy who calls the game straight, he calls the game right forward, and it allows him to almost kind of be that straight man that allows Razor to kind of take that extra space. I think the Star, I think the Star's broadcast is going to be back in a really good spot this year. I'm excited. Well, if anything, if nothing else, at least they'll have that. Sean, plug some stuff. What are you doing these days beside Daddy Duty, as we know? Biggest thing is focusing on the kid. One thing, I will plug. Obviously, read all the stuff at the athletic. I'm still doing kind of doing a couple things per week

up until we really ramp up in September. But I got a book coming out. A book coming out in October called 100 Things Stars Fans Should Know and Do Before They Die. Kind of a collection of stories and factoid and things about this franchise going back to including the North Stars Days. So if you're in Minnesota, it's still got some good stories from that. It comes out October 9th.

You can pre-order it now on Amazon. So if you're interested to learn everything from how the stars scouted Jamie Ben to how Marty Turko redefined, how goalie's stick handle with the Turco grip, there's all that type of stuff in the books. So I love to see as many people pre-order that book as possible. That would be great. Awesome. Well, I highly recommend that. And I'm glad we finally got to do this and finally got you on the show.

I have no doubt that we will cross-pass again, maybe even early on next. season because one of the reasons why I did want to do the show with you, the off season is I do think the stars are sort of positioned as one of the most fascinating teams to follow. There's a lot of moving parts there and it could really go in one of two extreme directions. And I'm sure there's be plenty of to kind of follow on a day-to-day basis and talk about with this team. And hopefully we can have you back on down the road to chat about that. Yeah, it'd be fun to do. I really appreciate this. Awesome. Have a good on, man. Cheers. You too. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockey pdocast.