The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 248: From The Ground Up

Episode Date: August 8, 2018

Shayna Goldman joins the show to discuss the New York Rangers, all of the moving parts we've seen there this summer, and the surprising transparency of their rebuild. 2:15 A fanbase's patience for a proper rebuild 9:20 Quinn's system and putting players in position to succeed 18:00 Using 2018-19 to properly evaluate players 29:10 Financial flexibility, draft assets, and Skjei's extension 42:00 Lundqvist's last chapter Every episode of the podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. Make sure to subscribe to the show so that you don’t miss out on any new episodes as they’re released. All ratings and reviews are also greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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My name is Dimitri Filipovich. And joining me is seemingly the only person affiliated with the New York Rangers that wasn't up for arbitration this summer. It's Shana Goldman. Shana, what's going on? Hi, thanks for having me. I'm excited to do this. You know, it seems obviously the New York Rangers playing in a big market. There's a lot of mainstream attention to them.

But I do feel like for whatever reason, I don't know, this is a popular sentiment or not, but at least from my perspective, I think they kind of have the most low-key, compelling situation brewing in the league right now. You know, I'm not sure what the timeline is for this rebuild and what the next handful of years are going to look for them. But just the way they've sort of the level of transparency and the decisiveness, starting with that letter they sent out before the trade deadline and then the moves they've made and sort of how they operated this summer, it must be a pretty interesting time for you covering a team like this because there is

so much, you know, turnover and movement. but it also feels like it's such a fluid situation that, you know, whether it's a year or two from now, this roster could look so vastly different. Yeah, it's definitely exciting and it was a long time coming for them to do this. And I think it was so surprising that not only they did it, but they were actually transparent about it because that's not the Rangers. I mean, they're one of the few teams that you never even find out contract values from still. So to see them come out and acknowledge their shortcomings, well, they weren't. completely out of the playoff race. They could have, you know, push for a wildcard spot.

They could have tried to go in, you know, the early rounds and probably be eliminated early and be in the same spot they were a few years, the past few years. And they realized we're not there yet. We're going to do whatever it takes to get there. And this is how we're doing it. But I, as patient as I think they'll be, I don't think it'll be like a Winnipeg Jets rebuild. I mean, it's still the Rangers and you still have Henrik-Lunquist. Yes. Oh, yeah. And we'll get into unquist a lot a bit later on but the whole idea of um kind of rebuilding or retooling or however you want to phrase it and sort of this idea of a team that was once formerly great sort of kind of turning back the clock a little bit I guess and sort of starting from scratch um you know especially in a

market like new york where there's so much else going on I feel like there might be some of that external pressure to feel the competitive team and drop get get people's attention um it's I don't know, do you feel like that is there is kind of added credence to that? Or do you think that, because I experience it a lot here in Vancouver and the discourse around the Canucks over the past handful of years is, you know, ownership and the managerial group has been very steadfast in their opinion that, you know,

the fans in Vancouver don't have the appetite or the patience to stick around for a rebuild. And if a team isn't competitive for a few years and is constantly picking it at the top of the draft, fans are going to kind of tune out. And I really think sometimes that can be a bit overblown. I think there's certainly going to be a segment of the fan base that, you know, is going to get bored and check out and might come back eventually or you might not, you might lose them as fans for life. But I think for the most part, this kind of more informed, intelligent fans, as long as there is that type of blueprint or plan or kind of they have confidence that the managerial group is kind of, you know, doing something as opposed to just going back and forth and without any sort of coherent plan.

I feel like that's enough to appease a lot of fans, at least for a couple years. Yeah, I think when you, not to insult them, but I think when you have the Islanders in close range also, it helps because no matter what the Rangers are doing, so many think they're the stable team in New York and that's the way it is. And if you expand New York, you can look at Buffalo too. So you can't complain and you did have all these years. But for the more educated fans, I think it was more of why wasn't this done sooner? Because you could look at 2015-16, they were a team that was, they were good, they looked like, you know, they would be in the playoff mix, but they didn't look like true content. enders. And I think making it to the cup final in 2014 raise the stakes. And after 14, 15, they made so many moves to keep pushing for contention when they could have taken a step back and built up a little bit better. So two years from then, they would have been more competitive. But I think this is what everyone's wanted. And when Jeff Gorton took over it was, it's time for a change. It's time to not go after marquee names that are past their prime. it's time to look and replenish what was lost.

And he made a couple moves in the beginning that it was like, okay, that's not Jeff Gordon. That's a Glenn Sater move, like the Eric Stahl trade. And everyone was asking for these moves that would become Gorton's signature. And when we started getting them, as much as it hurt to see a player like McDonough on his way out or J.T. Miller, I know a lot of fans were upset about, it was for the right reason. And it's to get somewhere that they actually will be good.

and it will be like a sustainable success, which they just didn't have. Right. Yeah. So I guess what's the time that Gordon took over ahead of the 2015-16 season, right? I'd be like it was that summer. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so obviously, and, you know, he was around to say there's a right-hand man prior to that, and it's kind of tricky to always figure out how to divvy up the responsibility for some of the moves that backfire in hindsight.

And, you know, a great example of this is I remember when the Capitals replaced George McPhee with his assistant GM, Brian McClellan. And I was one of the people that was kind of critical of that. I was wondering, well, you know, if you're replacing this GM who steered this franchise down the wrong path, having someone who was also kind of a culprit to that and also at least at least a bystander to it might not be the best way to run your business. But obviously that's worked out just fine for the capitals. And, you know, for the most part, it does feel like Gordon has gotten his footing a little bit here. I guess the one big flaw in the ointment so far is the four-year deal he,

handed out to Brendan Smith. And I can't even honestly fault in too much for that because I wouldn't. I was a fan of the player and and I was okay with the deal of the time and I just honestly can't believe how quickly things have went off the rails there with with the player and the team involved. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't think anyone expected it even when he got up to the slow start to be that bad. And I still think it could have been handled better. And I think that it's not, you saw like glimpses of the player that Brendan Smith was the year before and I don't know how much he was put in a situation to succeed. And when you see how bad the rest of the defense was,

it's a little hard to just fault him. The onus on him was not being in shape. And when he was scratched for, I think it was a string of seven games when they were on that winning streak. It was after October 31st when they beat Vegas, he was scratched in the third period. He was scratched for all those games.

And it's as much as you want him to get back in shape, he's not playing either. And you can train all you want, but you're not in a game setting. It's not helping. Yeah. Yeah, it is one of those. It just kind of feels like a loss season.

I wonder if what's going to look like heading into next year and kind of starting with a clean slate. But, you know, back to the point about Gordon and say there, it's, you know, there's still a few things left on the books. I was looking at the cap structure and sort of, you know, their financial outlook. And it's remarkable to me that, you know, the Dan Gerardy, six-year, $33 million stink bomb is still, they're going to feel that for a while, both directly because of the cap. I believe it's, like, still over $3 million per season for the next year or two. But even beyond that, sort of decision, what,

represented to pay Dan Jarri instead of Anton Strauman and letting him go and then you get into the Mark stall. So it's, it's, it's, I'm willing to give, uh, Gordon, you know, maybe a bit of a longer leash. And it might be easier for me to say because I'm a bit removed from the situation and I'm obviously not a fan of the team. But it does feel like, you know, this is going to take, um, some time for them to kind of dig out of this hole and replenish the pipeline and rebuild from scratch because, um, you know, the previous regime obviously did dig themselves a bit of a hole. Yeah. Yeah. They definitely dug themselves a hole.

And like you said, the Dan Girardi contract then, it looked bad at the time. They still went for it. It came down to Gerardier-Callahan, and it was a difficult decision. But it was still, you could go Callahan and Strawman versus Girardy. They went the opposite way, and you see how it worked out for Tampa. And that Callahan contract would have hurt no matter what, but you would have had Strawman, hopefully with McDunna, who were really great together and the few chances they got. And the stall contract, it looks terrible now.

It didn't look great then, but I don't think anyone could have anticipated his career going this off the rails. And I have to think so much of it is because of the injuries. Right. Yeah. But it's, of course, there's obviously a factor to it. And how they sort of finagle that or maneuver it in the next couple of years to come is going to be fascinating. Because obviously, whenever a player has that sort of name value still and is getting paid as much as he has, you kind of feel incentivized to play them up further in the lineup.

And we've seen, although he did have. you know, somewhat respectable, especially stretches last season for the most part, you know, he'd be obviously much better off playing further down in the lineup. And I'm not, I'm going to be very curious to see, you know, with this new coaching staff coming in with a fresh set of eyes and no real, you know, past allegiances involved or favorites, how that dynamic changes and whether, you know, some of the complaints we've had about Ellen Vino and how he used younger players and sort of, you know, the prototypical. grittier types that he seemed to favor and give an exceptional amount of minutes to whether that

changes and whether the pendulum finally swings and the Rangers are all of a sudden using some of these younger guys that we've all been clamoring for them to use more. Yeah, I have to think that's the case. And I know with Quinn, he does know some of these players like Kevin Chatton Kirk, but even when he knew Chatton Kirk and was coaching him at Lake Erie after he was the assistant at Boston University, like he wasn't afraid to scratch them if that's what it took. So it's nice to see that going into it already. Like he may be familiar with players, but whatever it's going to take to make them the best team, it seems like he's more willing to do.

Because like you said, that was exactly the problem. And it really was from the start, but it wasn't as obvious, I guess, at the start because it was a veteran group that he came into. Right. Yeah. There was only so many players for him to bump down the lineup and bench whenever they made a mistake. I promised myself that I wasn't going to devote any kind of time of constant. sequence on this podcast to Powell Bichnevich because I've talked about him so much on the show

and my thoughts are very clear on that and I think Rangers fans and everyone that's listened to the show in the past knows so go back and listen to any number of episodes where I sing his praises and wonder why Ellen Vigno is playing him on the fourth line and why he's not playing constantly attached to me because he's been a jad's hip as a playmaker and so on and so forth so that's my Buconeverch spiel but you know with Quinn um I had Sean Shapiro on last week and we were talking about Dallas Stars and it's kind of a similar thing where you know you had an established NHL coach who we knew a lot about it when you as tendencies being replaced by a head coach coming from the NCAA ranks that while even though they're experienced and have been around

the game for a long time don't have an NHL track record for us to point to as sort of proof of how this is going to turn out or what they're going to be like behind the bench you know I I know you've written about Quinn a lot in the past and you've made mention of the fact that, you know, he's going to play an uptempo style. There's going to be a lot of puck possession involved, hopefully. And that the defense in particular, which was a big, you know, big talking point, a big sore spot under Elie Migno is going to be kind of much more opened up to freelance and maybe activate themselves a bit more.

Sort of what are you expecting from that change? Because obviously with under L.A. Migno, you know, with a counterattacking style and sort of of, it didn't feel like it was a bit outdated and it felt like, you know, if Lundquist wasn't going to be standing on his head, they'd be in big time trouble and we saw that obviously happened as last year progressed. Are you expecting discernible changes at least out of the gate from Quinn? Or do you think it's going to be a bit more of a gradual response? I can see changes like right out the gate with Quinn because changes had to come. It wasn't something that you could really wait on it. It's like jump into it, get with it,

figure out the players and figure out the systems and start teaching them. Like you have time this season because no one expects you to be particularly competitive, but there were so many problems that have to be fixed. And I think when you go from the last coaching change, you had Tororella that was a defense first system, and then Vigno, who it seemed like was an offense first system. So there was a huge adjustment period for that. And the problems did come up pretty easily,

and they just spiraled out over the years, you know, with fitting square pegs into round holes, like the entire time with guys like Gerardi from the start. You saw it in the 2014 playoffs, like especially. But with Quinn, he's coming in, and it's supposed to be up-tempo to up-tempo, which vigno system was supposed to be. But I think the biggest problem last season was

there was definitely some disconnect between the coaches and the players because you had three different assistant coaches over five years, and Ulf Samuelson, Jeff Bougabum, and then Lindy Ruff. And they followed the same system year after year, and Ruff of all coaches should have been familiar with it.

But it just seems like there was that missing communication that helped the players execute everything because it just fell apart in such a way that I don't think anyone anticipated. I think we could have expected it to be worse than years past, even though on paper the defense was better, but just not to that extent. This year, it's a coach who's known for his communication. You have an assistant like Red Brown,

who also is with Boston College. So you have two college coaches coming in, and they know how to implement systems pretty quickly and teach their players it because it changes so much throughout the college landscape. And it's a revolving door of players. So I would expect them to know of all coaches how to jump in and start teaching the players

their system in their ways. And Lindy Ruff is there. And I think it's similar to the situation with Tampa when Cooper came in. They won an assistant with the NHL experience. And you have that in Ruff. I just don't know. how much of the decision-making process he's going to be a part of with the defense

because his decisions last season were questionable and his team's going back to, I think, 2012 or 2013 in shots against and expected goals against, were in the bottom 10 of the league until last year when they were up to 31. I don't know how much, you know, how much rain they want to give him, but also he's a respected name, so I don't know how much of that's going to affect it. there. But with guys like Quinn and Brown, you'll definitely see it where they're activating the defense. And they're not just going up for a single rush. And it's not just a one-dimensional offense. And ideally, they're coming back and covering up the slot and trying to suppress

passing lanes and all of that. So it isn't just Henrik-Lunquist. I wouldn't be surprised about first. It's a lot of Henrik-Lunquist. But then they kind of figured out, find their footing, and can give him some relief, which I'm sure he'll get from a backup playing more next year as well, because last year he started, I think he started 13 straight by like mid-December at one point and he was on pace to play 70 games. Yeah, no, it was definitely north of 60 and obviously at this point of his career, that was a bit extreme. Yeah, there's a lot of things to unpack there.

I think that, you know, I think Rangers fans are the most part, trying to judge their pulse online, it felt like, you know, this change behind the bench was a long time coming and something that desperately needed to happen. And I was looking at, because El Mnino completed his fifth season with the Rangers last year, I'm kind of looking at fascinated by the shelf life of coaches and sort of how long they're tenured and when that message kind of wears thin or whether, you know, something has to give. And it's remarkable right now. I want to blow your mind.

There's Peter Lavillette, John Cooper, Paul Maurice, and Joel Quenbel. So those four are the only coaches who have been with their team for more than four seasons right now. So it just kind of shows you how much of a changing landscape it is at that position where, whether it's because of the message or the system or because, you know, it's easier to fire the coach if you're the GM and sort of point to that as a reason for what went wrong and how things are going to change. It feels like coaches these days, you have that like two to four year window. And after that, something's got to give. And obviously for the Rangers, that's what happened this summer. Yeah, something definitely gave.

and it could have given a couple years ago too. Because there were issues that had you pointed them out from the start, maybe you could have fixed them. And they could have gotten him more mobile defensemen from the start because I do think that was an issue. And keeping Gerardi right there highlights it versus getting rid of Stroman or adding Dan Boyle, who, yes, was offensive, but wasn't the best skater at that age.

And last year was the year that it should have given him the chance to prove, like, okay, I have the personnel now. I can make my system work. I can adjust it to these players if necessary, but I have the players to make it work for maybe the first time in my tenure. And it was as bad as humanly possible. So it was like, uh,

that turns out. As bad as humanly possible. I could probably be a bit worse. But no, it was bad. And especially, I mean, like on a ranger scale. For Hendrik Lonequist, it was probably like,

you've never seen him yelling at coaches. He was yelling, Lindy Ruff, you saw some games too. So it was like, for him, it was like, that's got to be a breaking point. Oh, no, and I know it's, you know, he's a very passionate guy, obviously, and all the memes online of him freaking out and pushing the goal of the goalposts and all that is one thing.

But I believe it was like, correct me if it wrong, but I think it was like 12 or 13 times last season he faced like 40 plus shots. And it felt like last year really was the year where it hit that tipping point. And it was like, okay, something needs to happen in front of them because this is just unacceptable. And I think that, you know, Jeff Gordon and his staff seem to be aware of that. It feels like, you know, towards the end of last year, there's kind of playing out the string and they were going to address all that this summer. And you saw that with, you know, the moves they made in terms of the contracts they gave out to retaining their players.

It does feel like they are viewing 2018-19 as a bit of a, you know, temporary one-year testing ground or proving ground where they really want to. evaluate how some of these guys look in a different system where they're maybe actually being played to utilize their skills and give it and put in a position to succeed because when things go as poorly as they did last year and we see this time and time again with you know the worst teams in the league it becomes really tricky to evaluate who's at fault and whether players are really as bad as their underlying numbers look just because everything around them was kind of messed up so I'm going to be very fascinated to see how that translates into this coming season and whether you know some of those young guys and we'll get into them more here, are able to reverse course and maybe take a step up in production just purely

because they're being utilized in a different manner. Yeah, I agree. And I think, like you said, Gorton was noticing it. I think you could even say two, sorry, full year ago he was noticing it when he started adding defensemen that he was signing from like the college drinks like, you know, Pionk. And I think John Gilmore was added a year before that. And it was like, let's start replenishing it.

We don't have the draft picks, but we're replenished in a way that these guys are closer to being ready and stepping in. And then, of course, last summer, it was extending Smith, adding Chatton Kirk, trading for DeAngelo, and really strengthening that right side that needed it after the Gerardy buyout, after having Nick Holden on his offside for the entire season, which he ended up doing again. But it seemed like he acknowledged every problem except for on the coaching staff. And then you saw such a reversal this year with the fresh approach, which you went with Lindy Rough, which is maybe the opposite of a fresh approach the year before. Yeah, no, definitely.

And okay, so let's talk about the summer they've had. So it seems, oh, man, there's such a long laundry list of guys who got contracts. So it's Kevin Hayes obviously got the one-year deal. And then Ryan Spooner, Vladimestakov, and Jimmy Visi all got two years. Is that correct? Yeah, and then Brady-Shay obviously got his long-term extension. and we'll get into Shay in a second here. But I really do feel for out of that group,

Nemesnikov, I just wonder how much money the deadline day trade cost him ultimately. Obviously, he'll have this two-year deal and then if he performs well, he'll be able to cash in. But if you just look at what was going on in the first half of the year, where he had 20 goals in 62 games,

he was lighting it up on the power play, playing on the top unit with Stankoos and Kuturob. And just watching those games, it really felt like he wasn't necessarily just a convenient bystander either or a passenger with those guys. He was helping carry the puck into the zone. He was really good around the net in tight spaces. I felt like it was a very complimentary skill set. And then he goes to the Rangers and basically, you know, his production completely plummets. He has two goals and 19 games. He's not doing anything on the power play. And J.T. Miller

steps into his spot, you know, performs handsomely. It winds up getting paid. It made $26 million. And, you know, obviously J.T. Miller himself has a bit of a lot. long our track record at this level and it's a different circumstance. But it really does feel like out of all of the things that happened to Messnikov was kind of the guy who was who was the biggest loser out of the group. Yeah. And it's surprising to me too that they were willing to trade away to Messnikov and didn't want to extend him to a lengthy deal and then gave that deal on Miller who he was good with with Stamco's and Kutrov and who wouldn't be. But he wasn't even great in the playoffs there. And that was a that was one thing with the Rangers. He wasn't as great with the Rangers.

he wasn't as consistent, and I think a lot of it did have to do with the coaching, the usage. He was used last year with Gravenor and Hayes for most of the year on the third line, taking these shifts that a lot of the time did start in the defensive zone, and the idea was to get Gravner the puck and let him skate. So it's interesting to me that they felt Miller's more of the guy than Domestikov, when Domesikov seems like the player that does all the little things right. And once you gave him teammates that were that capable, he was able to show things that no one saw throughout his NHL career.

And then he came to New York and, yeah, it wasn't good. I know it was said after that he had a shoulder injury, which is why he didn't go to the World Championships. But even still, he was in the lineup. So he was healthy enough to play. And, I mean, injury management was the thing last year that there were a lot of decisions that didn't make sense with the Rangers, like allowing Chatton Kirk to play on one knee and allowing Kenrick to play injured.

They said he had like knee and hip issues after the year. and Zucrello as well. But with Nemaskinkov, he was healthy enough to play, but was it that he wasn't healthy enough to play in your top six? You just didn't want him to, because you can't expect him to succeed when you're giving him line mates like Cody McLeod. And at times it was Buchenevich and McLeod, but it still was like an anchor on the line that it really didn't work out. But the two-year bridge deal, I'm a little surprised at him and Nemesnikov both got them. I honestly thought one would be traded at the draft, if not right after. But I guess with this strategy, it's one or both could be moved at the deadline this year, if need be.

And you're giving a team more than just half the season. You're giving them a year and a half's worth of a player that hopefully can show just how capable they are. And Nemesnikov's the one that I guess has something to prove that he can still do it away from Stamco's and Kutrov. But I don't think the Rangers should have expected that Nemestikov either way because he wouldn't be playing alongside players that great here no matter what. no yeah that's definitely true i think you know the probably the line of thinking between but behind um not moving into those guys of the draft and sort of retaining them and bringing it back and hoping as we alluded to that things will be different under a new coach and a new system is it felt like probably their stock was so low at this point that you'd be really selling low and maybe with that

two-year term it gives you a bit of wiggle room where you can bring them back start fresh this season and if they perform then you know they're not under they're not on the books for a long time either not long term, but you can still either retain them or trade them. So it gives you some flexibility. I think that that's kind of been the uniting theme here amongst all those names, beyond Brady Shea, of course, is that there's going to be a lot of moving parts here. And we saw last year's trade deadline with all the trades they made and shuffling out the veteran players and bringing in picks and prospect.

I think there's going to be a bit of a revolving door. And I think that's just something that we have to kind of come to terms with it, especially with Kevin Hayes. It felt like as soon as that one-year deal came out, it and they can't even really um you know they can't come to terms of an extension until january first i believe it it does feel like he's going to be one of those prime um out of the bunch the prime trade deadline kind of trade fodder trade bait um leading up to the deadline yeah i the the one year deal for hayes once it was announced uh i think larry brooks was the first to report it and it was

right after shea's extension was announced um it was really surprising because it felt like for the For the last two years since they were both bridge-dealed by Gorton, it was going to be Miller or Hayes. And the question was, well, which one would you want? And the answer was clearly Hayes. He's more versatile. He's asked, he's done everything he's been asked to do. He can take on those minutes in the defensive zone. He can penalty kill.

You put him on the power play. He's effective. It's questionable why he didn't get more time there in the first place. But it seemed like he did everything that the Rangers wanted him to do since he joined the team because he wasn't even a center when he joined. He was a right winger. So to see that it went, oh, maybe Kevin Hayes isn't part of this future either was a little bit surprising, even though it wouldn't completely surprise me if they came to a longer term deal because they may say,

let's see what you do under coin, let's see what you do in a more offensive role, and let's see if you do all of a sudden put up points that we were expecting, to which his response could have easily been, how could you expect him to put points on this team and this role and all of that? So if he can prove it, there's a chance they agree to a deal. But at that point, he's going to be 27 when this year ends. And then you're extending him into his 30s. And they didn't want that with Derek Stepan-War. They're going to want that with Kevin Hayes, who's not even their first-line center. And why do you want that when you have Zabandajat signed through 2021?

And then you have Heidel, who can play center, Anderson, and Brett Howden. So it kind of seems like it's squeezing them out in a way. I can see why he wouldn't want a longer-term deal unless it had trade protection because he could be thinking he could be out in a year even if he signs a deal. So it makes sense on both sides why they were hesitant for a long-term deal. It makes sense on both sides why they want the short-term deal. But yeah, it's like a ticking clock now. When is its time going to end here?

Yeah, I'm still believer in Kevin Hayes. I think obviously, you know, people that might have soured on him a little bit and he hasn't necessarily I guess that's not even fair. I think he's produced, you know, perfectly reasonably based on how he was being used and he was playing with and sort of how he was being yo-yoed around by the coaching staff. But obviously, whenever you see a player who's kind of capable of the physical feats that he is, and sometimes he just looks so dominant out there as a playmaker, you can sound kind of, it's a bit unfair to the player himself.

It's a bit of a blessing and a curse because when you have that type of a skill set, if you don't do it on a consistent basis and really take that next step and become a star, people are going to be left wanting more and feel a bit disappointed and feel like you're either a bust or, yeah, you're not living up to the potential, but he's still a perfectly effective player. Maybe you just might need to moderate your expectations a little bit, but I do feel like with this new coach in place, if he's put in a more offensively reliant role, he could definitely put up the numbers and come the traded line, I could imagine him fetching a nice little return for the Rangers if they do decide that they don't want to go long term with him and he's going

to be one of these expendable pieces. Yeah. And I think it also will depend if he can switch back to the wing or maybe if Nemesnikov and Spooner are more easy to trade and they get the returns that they want. And it could go for the same with Matt Zuccarello too. If they decide Zuccarell is being traded at the deadline, maybe they do want to keep some players because you don't want to get rid of every single piece you have. But on the other hand, they may feel we can keep Matt Zuccarelli.

We can keep him on our penalty kill. And in our middle six, we really don't need you. Then, you know, trading would be a better option for them. Yeah, no, I would. And if they do decide to trade Hayes, he's going to join the list of guys like Zuccarello and maybe some of those other guys with the extra year on their contract that we mentioned that are going to become a bit expendable and become trade pieces for them to dangle.

And, you know, that's something that I really, really, I was a big fan of how they operated last year in terms of extracting value and getting a bunch of assets back. And especially when it comes to draft capital, you know, we're going to talk about Brady Shea here in a second, but he went 28th overall in 2012. And then this team went four years without a first round pick. And in those years, their first selections were 65th, 59th, 41st and 81st. And that's kind of started really show. And obviously with Ellen Vino in place, we mentioned that, you know, it was a bit more of a veteran group, and they were getting some college free agents, so maybe they were able to cover up some of

those flaws a little bit. But eventually, if you're not building out your system and devoting a lot of assets to replenishing their prospect pipeline, it will catch up to you. And, you know, to their credit, to Jeff Gordon's credit, you know, what, they had five first round picks over the past two years. They brought in guys like Heidel and Leia Sanderson and Krasov and Keontry Miller and guys, I'm really. excited about that have a lot of potential, a lot of offensive skills they can contribute, assuming they develop well over the coming years. So, you know, with that and some of the picks they already have in place, like, at least they're moving in the right direction.

And, you know, I was talking to the fine folks over there at Blueford Banter, who do their annual prospect ranking set. And it kind of blew my mind a little bit that out of the top 10 that they ranked for the Rangers prospects, nine of them came into the system over the past. 14 months or so, which kind of really, it's both a compliment to what they've been able to accomplish over the past two drafts, but also a testament to how barren things were before that. Yeah, yeah. I think it's 40 prospects this year and you just see how different it is. Last year, it was obviously highlighted by Heelan Anderson, and this year, they're going to

be up there as well, but there are new names to it. And there's actually something to be excited for. And there's a future to look forward to because everything with the, over the years has been the short term and the win now and maybe a year out you can look at, but you didn't have this, you know, for years. This was what was moved to become, you know, to stay good for right now. So it's definitely exciting. And themes like Keelan Anderson and Kratsoff, like there's so much to be excited about

from a fan perspective, from a team's perspective, because you can't do this without those picks. Yeah. What are your thoughts on the Brady Shea extension? I know you wrote about, you know, the pros and cons of kind of going the bridge deal route versus signing long term. How do you feel about the ultimate decision they settled on with them? I think of their players he was the most important to not bridge deal because I was concerned about how much it would cost afterwards.

And there's a lot of uncertainty on this defense. You have, I'm trying to think. You have Chatton Kirkstall and Smith signed for the next three years. And then other than that, there's no one. and they have prospects that are going to be joining, and obviously stall won't be a part of it long term, you'll have to replace him, but you didn't want to have to add shadier list. And if you bridged him for two years and then sign him for a really expensive contract after that, it just wouldn't have made sense if you thought he could be a part of your future right now,

which they clearly did. I do think the money is a little bit higher than expected. I anticipated more to be like 4.5, maybe 4.8. I didn't think they go 525, but I'm not complaining because it's a lower percentage of the cap hit. I know that's the argument a lot of people use. I think it's a lower percentage than what McDonough was. And he has these skills. You've seen it at the NHL level.

You've seen it at World Juniors and the World Championship and all that. I don't know how much we saw it at college because the usage there was a little bit funky. And he, I think at the University of Minnesota it was if you didn't have clear offensive talents, it was don't bother and just kind of be more cautious and more careful. So his first season, you got to see that talent when he scored just under 39 points, I think it was. And this season, obviously, it wasn't there at the same, nearly the same level. So you're seeing more of his game. You've seen it at the NHL level.

You see that he has all these tools and it's just he needs the right coach to put him in the right position to succeed. And maybe Quinn is that guy. And they have three years to figure it out if Shay isn't going to be the same. that guy before the modified no trade clause kicks in anyway. But if they signed him now, they're paying him through the rest of his prime. They're not stuck with him through his 30s. Like they were with Gerardi, like they were with Stahl. I think Stahl was 20.

And I think Jardy was 30 when those contracts kicked in, which is the last thing you could possibly want. So you just got a piece of your defense there for a while. And even if he's a second pair defender, it's not the worst contract in the world. And if it doesn't work out, another team will probably be willing to take on that deal. because he's young and the answer might just be a change of scenery. So you have options, but at least you didn't screw yourself three years down the road when you're supposed to be competitive again and you need every drop of the cap space that you have.

Yeah, it's tough to reconcile how vastly different the past two seasons have been for him. And you obviously usage and expectations and all that are playing a role here. And, you know, towards the end of their playoff run two years ago, I know it was in a bit more of a sheltered role, but him and Brendan Smith were really dominant together, I thought. And obviously last year, you know, his usage went up. The difficulty of those minutes went up and he struggled a little bit, but you're right. I mean, the age is there. The physical tools with the skating are obviously there. And I am a bit surprised that the money, I know the cap is going up, but the money came out to as much as it was, because I agree with you

with the line of thinking that heading into the negotiations, this is a type of player assuming that, you know, you are a fan of his skill set, that you want him on your team moving forward, that you go the long-term route just because, you know, a couple years down the road here, if you go the bridge route and all of a sudden he explodes and he puts up a lot of accounting stats and you have to pay him more,

you really run into that trouble with all these prospects we've been talking about exiting their rookie deals and all of a sudden you have to pay all those guys and then you really have a financial logjam but I'm just kind of curious about how that went back and forth. I'd love to know because it does feel like it is a bit of a gamble on their part, and it feels like for the most part that wasn't baked into this price they paid. And so I guess that's kind of the thing that I'm having trouble wrapping my head around

and coming to terms with because I do like the player. I would bet on him. I just thought that he had maybe played himself out of a little bit of money based on how last year went for him. No, I totally agree. I think both had leverage. He had the leverage of you don't have any defensive stability really. And, you know, I made it through last season. He was one of the veteran defensemen somehow by the end of the year because it was just him in stall left. And he's shown that he has those skills. So he did have that leverage. But on the other hand, the team could have looked at it and said, you weren't good last year. Yes, your partners were changing constantly. Yes, the system sucked. Yes, the entire defense was bad. But you were also bad. and we can't forget that. He's still responsible for not having a good year. As much as there was the environment around him

that wasn't great or conducive to success, he was still bad. And they could have tried to lower it and you look at the one I always compare to his Jane Gotsby, you see it his rookie year he was great. His second year, Haxstole put him in the press box a handful of games because he didn't like aspects of his game. And he got the long-term contract anyway right after that season,

but I think it's only 4.5 million or 4.6. They could have given Shea that same deal, and it would have been fine, but yeah, they're gambling on it, and hopefully it works out. Well, and it was, I wonder how much this had to know as well, but, you know, looking ahead, I believe three years out, Shea and Zabinajad, who will be in expiring at that point, are going to be the only players left on the team's books right now. And that is

it's both an exciting proposition and also a potentially alarming one because obviously kind of clearing the deck and really stripping the team of spare parts and bothering them out is one thing and that seems like it's probably pretty easy to do

but deciding who your franchises, cornerstones are going to be and who you're going to build around and how you're going to support those guys with complementary skill sets is obviously the trick in the whole thing and it's clear that they sort of determined that Shea would be one of those building blocks. So, I mean, I imagine that, you know, that obviously speaks very highly to what they see of him.

And it's, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, now there's so much moving forward. There's so much, you know, financial flexibility and also roster space for this, for, for Gordon to play with. And I'm very curious to see how they operate with that, whether they use some of the, that remaining cap space to potentially take on a bad contract. Like we heard rumored with Ryan Callahan if a trade involving Eric Carlson happens or whether, you know, they go another route. Like there's, there's so many ways they can go about it here that could potentially be very constructive and very lucrative.

And it's just going to be a matter of time before we see if that's what they choose to operate or whether they try to kind of fast forward that this thing and all of a sudden erase a lot of this goodwill that they bought amongst us. Yeah. for the Shea as the cornerstone of their defense, I mean, it makes sense why they choose him. Besides him, Neil Pionk was really good at times last season. O'Garra probably is not part of your long-term future. DiAngelo has the skill there, but we have no idea what he'll actually become.

There's so much to work on there. And you don't know how it's going to translate for any of your prospects. As highly tired as some of them may be, you have absolutely no idea how it's going to work out. So at least you have one figured out in Shea. And also, there's no, no movement clause. There's no full, no trade clauses and stuff like that to up the price in the term a little bit. So that's another thing to consider. But, yeah, I could definitely see them taking on a bad contract.

I really thought they would have by now. I think Calhann would be a good example of someone to do. And I know they want more leadership in that room. They said towards the end of the season, the environment in the actual locker room wasn't great after some of their bigger name players, you know, weren't there. And obviously it hurt losing Girardi the year before. And Derek Step on too is very vocal. So having someone like Callahan would be great,

even though the cap hit is big and the contract's not great. And he's going to be in your bottom six at that cost, but he still brings something that'll help move this along and help lead those kids, which they're going to need within, you know, the next few years. And as much as there are some players who play the leadership role in this roster, I'm not sure just how many there are. But I think that they've committed to the rebuild this far. And I think Carlson was probably the most tempting player that you could ask for on the market, really.

And they stayed away from that. I don't know how much of it was because he didn't want to go to New York or because they didn't want to spend as much and really set themselves back in the future even more. So they weren't tempted with that. That I think they're saying we're doing this for real. We're sticking to this. but I do wonder if Panarin says, I want to come to New York,

if maybe they pump the brakes on the rebuild and go hold on. We could change to a retool real quick. Yeah. No, that's going to be a good test, obviously. It's one thing to, you know, when you're in the position they were this year to kind of say that you're going to be doing this thing, but then all of a sudden,

if you get teased by a player like Panarin that's available all of a sudden, you might need to rethink things. And I think this is, it is going to take some time. I mean, I think that realistically, and that's why I guess when we started the show, show we were talking about the transparency and how surprising it was that they did pen that letter to their fans. You know, we often don't see teams talk that way because it's not very palatable

to openly admit to your fans that, listen, for the next two, three years, we don't really have very many intentions or belief that we're actually going to win. You know, that doesn't mean necessarily we're going to try to lose, but we're going to give the young players an opportunity and we're probably going to stink, but there's going to be growing pains and hopefully there's going to be a reward for us at the end of the road. And it does feel like that window here with some of those contracts, as we talked about, you know, with Lundquist aging out over time and with Mark Stalls deal expiring and all of those players basically being off the books three years from now, it does feel like that's going to be kind of the crossroads point where they're going to have

to make some critical decisions based on who they view as the cornerstones and which direction they want to go with building this team out. Yeah. And I wouldn't be surprised if they do try to take things up a notch and have a team that's maybe not a contender, but a playoff team for 2020-21 because that is Longquist last year. And yes, he'll be 38. And yes, he's still Longquist and you can look around and see Luongo still doing it, even though the injuries have, you know, obviously slowed him down a bit. But that Longquist could still be doing it.

And maybe he has Georgiev behind him at that point. He's 22 now, so it'll be 24 then. Or maybe it's Igor Shishuarkin, depending on how he comes over and how his game translates to the NHL. So you could have Longquist maybe playing 40% of the games or 50% of the games at that time with a solid team and hope that could be the year. And I wouldn't blame them as long as it doesn't totally hurt their future after that. I wouldn't want them to make too many right now moves that it takes away from this process in any way. But I really wouldn't blame them if they said in the last year of Longquist contract, we have to at least be a playoff team for him.

Yeah, it's tough. Obviously there is that sentimental and emotional element. into it and based on the career he's had and what he's meant to that organization, I, it'd be very understandable that they would factor that into it. And, listen, with him, I understand his age at that point and the miles,

he's going to have, assuming he stays healthy over the next two years, he's going to have topped 1,000 combined regular season and playoff games in NHL and, you know, the workload and age. And you normally expect that a regular human being would not be as productive as, as they are at this point.

But I feels like, you know, with him and Luongo, being the exceptions to the rule, if you told me that three years from now, they're still even like kind of slightly above league average or hovering around a 9-20 percentage, I'd be like, well, I have to believe it just based on how they've been proving everyone wrong for years now. So it's, it's, I guess we'll see how that plays out.

But if you told me, Longquist will be able to still be, you know, at least an upper echelon goalie at that point, I have to see him have a, stretch of really falling off and showing age-related decline. And we've seen kind of inklings of it so far, but not anything sustained. And I think he was better last year than his raw numbers indicate just based on how big of a clown show was in front of him. So I still do think he has a bit left in the tank and kind of balancing that and the end of his career and doing right by him versus everything we've talked about in this

show so far with the young players coming in and this being a rebuilding phase, like is one of the more interesting subplots to me how that plays out and who ultimately winds up winning out. Yeah. I mean, I have to think he'll still be, like you said, around league average, at least then. I mean, what goaltender on the 36th birthday is facing, I think it was 50 shots against and still, you know, winning the game and playing as well as he did. He was making unbelievable saves. I think one of the saves he had could be, you know, one of his saves of the year. So two years from now, if he's still doing well, I really wouldn't be surprised. But I also think he needs to have a better team in front of him the next year. So it's not, you know,

making him age quicker than he should, which definitely could happen if he's facing another year 40 shots on goal 12 times. I wonder, I mean, it might just be one of those things where after he calls a quit and after he retires, people will look back more fondly on it. But it doesn't it feel like, and I don't know why it is, maybe it is because of some of those temperate he's throw sometimes or or the team he plays for it but it does feel like around the league their the opinion of him and sort of the career he's had and how great he really was hasn't really matched up to the actual numbers themselves especially when you look a bit deeper beyond just the raw say percentage and you look at stuff like goals saved above average and workload and how

he's managed to just you know exceed all reasonable expectations in both of the those fronts for for years on end at such a volatile position. I wonder what the reason for that is. I don't know. Like, obviously, Rangers fans themselves hold him in high regard, but for the most part, it does feel like the discourse around him is a bit off. Yeah. I mean, there are even Ranger fans who aren't, aren't Lunkwist fans, the fans that were clamoring for Talbot to stay or even around to the day. There's this idea that he, he falters in the postseason, which is unequivocally not true. Oh, yeah. I mean, they're, they're, they're most success they've had in the Longcris era was 2014 and it was to the Stanley Cup final and they

wouldn't have gotten close to that if it wasn't for Longquist. There's absolutely no doubt it was all Longquist that that postseason if he was scoring goals they would have won a Stanley Cup too but there was only so much he could do. But there's definitely that feeling among some that you can't call him a King because he doesn't have a Stanley Cup even though he has you know the championships are at their levels and he's accomplished so much and how quickly he's done it. He's a whole of famer, there's no doubt, but it would be nice if it's not a Hall of Famer with an asterisk that he's never won a cup. And I think until he wins that, you're going to keep hearing that. Yeah, it's, I was looking at the numbers today when I was doing some preparation for the show,

and that sort of five or six year peak he had there from about, I guess, 08 to like 2014 or so was just, it was staggering. You know, in all situations, he had saved like 30 goals above average twice, 25, three other times. That lockout short in season in 2012, 2013, it was only a 43 game sample, but he was just absurd. And I think that the biggest sort of praise you can give him or the biggest compliment you can give him. And we saw a bit of this with Kerry Price in Montreal a few years ago and you see it around the league with great goalies. You know, the blessing and a curse of having a great goalie like that is they mask so many of your flaws and really kind of lull you to sleep or trick you into believe.

that the team is better than it actually is. And then whenever they have any sort of hiccup or start to decline even a little bit, things just come crashing down like a house of cards. And we have seen that with Lunkwis and the Rangers. And just all those years, especially under Alain Migno, where they were asking him to do superhuman things based on their counterattacking style and how often they were hanging him out to drive with breakaways and two-on-ones and three-on-tos and him stepping up to the task and performing admirably is just,

It's something that you look back at and you just marvel at how the level he was able to play at and for how long he was able to sustain it. Yeah, he definitely is, I would say, you could still argue he's one of the best in the league right now. And I know obviously his play right now isn't the same as it was in his prime. But what he's done over his career, it really is amazing. And even now, and I think this is where some of the complaints do stem from is fans don't like when he over. compensates for the team and you saw it in games. I know there was one against Tampa and it was after the deadline where he was going behind the net to retrieve the puck when he really had no business doing that but no one else was around and then he'd get the hook. And there was, I believe

it was that game. Maybe it was one right after that, maybe against Ottawa where he stared, you know, it looked like he was staring the coaching staff down after he was pulled from a game and he said it afterwards. There's only so much you could do in these games and I'm trying when no one else is there to help and I'm trying to do, you know, everything myself, but to see that he reacts so negatively to him being pulled or to a goal being allowed there and he has such strong reactions, it makes, I guess it amplifies when a mistake is made and so many people are so quick to call that mistake out. Yeah. And I guess, yeah, that's a good way to put. I think that all that excellence kind of, you know, spoiled people a little bit. The Rangers why they miss the postseason 7th

years before he arrived and then prior to last year they'd only miss the postseason once i believe during that stretch that he's been with the rangers so it's and it was the year they obviously lost in the shootout um in the final day of the season and the team they lost to made it all the way to stand in the cup final so yeah it's this it's been this sustained run of excellence you know making it to two conference finals and a third uh where they made it all the way to a cup final in 2014 15 so it it it it spoils you a little bit, but it feels like this is sort of the cyclical nature of the sport and the fact that the New York Rangers have been able to remain

competitive, or at least in the fringe for this long, is one thing, and now it's kind of, it might be a few years. That's just how the sport works, where you have to kind of have to take the ups and downs, and that's how it works. Yeah. All right, Shane, let's get out of here.

Plug some stuff. What are you working on these days? I know you've been, you've been churning out content. on the athletic quite a bit, but let people know where they can find you and follow you online. Okay. For the athletic, I'll have something Friday, actually, on Paula Luchnavich and not just talking about Seuss. There we go.

There we go. And I'm definitely going to look at more than just, he was on the fourth line. He wasn't good, but what he needs to do to put it all together as well because, you know, there's still the onus is on him. So I'll have that. And I think the rest of the summer, I'm going to look at some expectations for players and try to dive into what we hope to see from names like Zabanajad or Kreider. and eventually something on Hockey Gras about taxes.

There we go. Well, that's, wow, that's pretty topical. I feel like we've spent a lot of time on Twitter these, the past handful of months. I feel like talking about taxes. So I'm curious to see what your conclusion is that. Have you started working on that piece yet? Yeah, it's like 90% done and I've just been stuck on the Canadian tax aspect of it because that is so out of my realm.

But, yeah. Awesome. Well, I'm really excited to check that out. And obviously, I will definitely be clicking and reading the Pavl Bichnevich piece, and I'm looking forward to seeing that. And I appreciate you taking the time to finally come chat. It's going to be exciting time for Rangers fans that at least are able to kind of take a step back and take a longer term approach and outlook on this team. Because assuming things play out correctly and they take it slowly and handle their business the correct way, there's a lot of reason for optimist. I feel like a good blueprint for this is what happened with the Toronto Maple Leafs over the past handful of years.

and obviously winning the lottery and getting an Austin Matthews helps expedite that process. But there is a blueprint there where in a bigger market, with a lot of financial power power, if you can combine the timing and make it all work, you can really have something special. Totally agree. Awesome. Well, we'll have you back on next season for sure. And until then, enjoy the rest of the summer and we'll talk soon. Thanks. Thanks for having me on.

The Hockey P.D.O.cast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud. at soundcloud.com slash Hockeypedocast.