The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 255: Splitting Things Down The Middle

Episode Date: October 10, 2018

Andrew Berkshire joins the show to help sort through the league's absolutely loaded crop of centers, and rank the best players at the position. In this episode we discuss the methodology guiding the ranking process (1:45), the honourable mentions that just missed the cut (11:10), the start of the top 20 list (15:45), and eventually the real cream of the crop with the top 10 itself (1:07:05).  Sponsoring today’s show is SeatGeek, which is making it easier than ever before to buy and sell sports and concert tickets. They’re giving our listeners a $20 rebate off of their first purchase. All you have to do is download the free SeatGeek app and enter the promo code PDO to get started. Also sponsoring today's show is MeUndies. To get your hands on the softest, most comfortable underwear you've ever worn just go and let them know we sent you. If you enter the promo code PDO they'll even give you 15% off the first pair, and a 100% satisfaction guarantee that you'll love the style and substance they have to offer.  Lastly: we'll be doing weekly daily fantasy listener leagues over at FanDuel this season. If you go to fanduel.com/PDO and tell them we’ve sent you, they’ll hook you up with a bonus $20 to play with after your first deposit. This week we'll be holding the contest during Thursday evening's jam-packed 12-game slate slate. See you there! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Are you ready for the most ridiculous internet sports show you have ever seen? Welcome to React, home of the most outrageous and hilarious videos the web has to offer. So join me, Rocky Theos, and my co-host, Raiders Pro Bowl defensive end, Max Crosby, as we invite your favorite athletes, celebrities, influencers, entertainers in for an episode of games, laughs, and, of course, the funniest reactions to the wildest web clips out there. Catch React on YouTube, and that is React, R-E-A-X-X. Don't miss it. This podcast episode is brought to you by Coors Light.

These days, everything is go, go, go. It's non-stop hustle all the time. Work, friends, family. Expect you to be on 24-7? Well, sometimes you just need to reach for a Coors Light because it's made to chill. Coors Light is cold-loggered, cold-filtered, and cold-packaged. It's as crisp and refreshing as the Colorado Rockies. It is literally made to chill.

Coors Light is the one I choose when I need to unwind. So when you want to hit reset, reach for the beer that's made to chill. Get Coors Light and the new look delivered straight to your door with Drizzly or Instacart. Celebrate responsibly. Coors Brewing Company, Golden Colorado. To the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey P.D.O.cast. With your host, Dimitri. Welcome to the Hockey PeeDOcast.

My name is Dimitri Filipovich. and joining me for the first time this season, first of many, I'm sure, is my good buddy Andrew Berkshire. Andrew, what's going on, man? Not much, Demetri. I just wrapped up the big project that I do every summer, and I've got to tell you,

having it out of the way and not having to work, like, 12 hours a day writing about stuff and crunching numbers. It feels good. It feels good. I feel very relaxed right now. Yeah, I mean, let's not lose sight of what we're doing. We're watching and writing about hockey.

True. In the grand scheme of things, if you have to do 12 hours a day of that, it's uh you could be doing a lot worse that's true although i'd much rather do like you know six to eight yes yeah it's a lot easier especially when you're trying to juggle uh real life stuff but yeah i i'm just excited to be able to do uh podcasts like uh jumping on the pdo cast which is one of my favorite things to do yeah well and we love having you and we've done this for the past i believe two seasons now this is the third year you and i are going to be doing uh after you post it i have

the good fortune of looking at your list and sort of getting my brain jogging and trying to figure out where I have my own top 20 and then I jot down kind of a framework of a list of my own and then we go back and forth and try to figure it out and maybe see how much I agree with you or where we differ. Let's go through the methodology a bit just to refresh people's memory of sort of how you went about putting together this list and what went into it because obviously you know there's it's it's really easy to nitpick with people's lists and and critique them but actually kind of starting from scratch and trying to figure out where all these guys go together when there is so much happening and there's so many different facets of the game that you have

to consider is is an entirely different animal so when you kind of sit down and you're like okay I'm going to do this top 20 or or however many guys you're going to rank what goes into it and sort of how do you weigh all those things yeah so this is my third year of doing this and each year I kind of try to refine it a little bit and you know include some more knowledge in terms of like what I've learned and then you do a lot of research in like public data and try to I mean I don't want to say steal but steal some of their ideas and try to work in what the smartest people out there are saying and try to figure out how that can be uh you can use like public ideas and then I have the advantage of using private data so I can kind of take those

ideas and try to work them in. But at the same time, uh, the main thing that I try to stress every year when I do this is like, this is for fun. Like I'm not a mathematician. I feel like comparing these to like a war statistic or the rapum that evolving wild does. It's not a good comparison because I mathematically, they're just way smarter than I am. I don't know how to do the kind of stuff that they do. So this is like kind of a combination of, experience and gut feel of what's important. And I put in a ton of statistics, you know, ranging from, you know, individual high dangerous scoring chances to, you know, like how many, how often a player stick checks the puck away from an opponent that causes a change in possession. And you,

you try to wait what's important and what's not. You know, some things are worth like 0.2% of a total. And then there are things that are worth like 5 or 6%. Uh, it's, very painstakingly long. I think the thing that I worry about most in all of it is just like getting weightings that makes sense. And I try not to, you know, overly rely on points, but then at the same time not undervalue them. So it's, it's a constant struggle to figure out what I actually want to do. But I think my main focus in terms of what I can bring that's new to the project is an actual individual accounting of what players contribute transitionally and defensively.

Because offensive statistics in the public sphere are pretty good. You know, like we have most of what you need, especially with passing data coming out through Mr. Simpson over there, who's done great work. And then there's, you know,

some transition work done that Corey Schneider has given us all. So I don't want to disregard anything about. He's got a stopping bunch for the devils, Corey Schneider is providing us with stats. Yes, exactly. So, yeah, so that kind of stuff I try to work in, but also some stuff that Sport Logic has that other people don't have. Some of the things that I worked in this year was more focus on like individual puck battles that are contested instead of just loose puck

recoveries, which are also still important. I started to work on more controlled entries against for defensemen. That was one of the big things that I worked in. And, uh, odd man rushes against. So like how often your partner is pinching and leaving you out to dry, that kind of stuff. And kind of just contextualize what each player actually deals with. And then also the difficulty score, which is a combination of, for the most part, quality of teammates and the amount of ice time that a player gets and how that ice time is allotted. Right. So like if you're played more at even strength and the power play, it's going to be tougher, right?

So if you get a lot of penalty kill time, for example, that's going to be a tougher sled for you in your overall statistics. It's just more draining. So trying to account for all that stuff. And, you know, I'll probably change quite a bit next year as well. But I feel like every year I've gotten closer to the truth. You know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. And I don't think we're ever going to, or at least any time soon, entirely get there.

But obviously it gets the discussion going and it kind of makes you think about different stuff and sort of how. you weigh all those things and different attributes. You do, so you're doing a three-year average, right? Yeah, yeah. It weights all three years differently. I use the same formula as Dominic Gallimini from the hero charts. So like three years ago is like 22.2%, then 33.3 and 44.5. So it gives a little bit of recency bias to everything.

And yeah, that's the main thing. And you try to do some waiting for games played as well. You don't want to have somebody who played like 20 games this year, have that 20 games be more important than 160 games the previous two years. So there's some of that as well, but I try not to punish players a lot for being injured either. So like it's also one of those things where you have to kind of look at both sides. I feel like one of the main struggles that I have is I try to figure out like,

what does the coach see that I'm not seeing? And I feel like that's always something that I've personally struggled with. Some people seem to be able to identify that a little bit better. But there are some players who just whatever way I change the rankings or change the waitings, because sometimes I play around and see after I'm done, what if I did this differently? What if I did this differently? What would the list look like? And there are some guys who coaches love who no matter what I do just aren't very good.

So it's one of those things where it's just like, am I? missing something or are they crazy? Yeah, no, I think that's definitely fair. And so you made a couple good points there that I did want to kind of hammer home because it is a bit of a double-edged sword with lists like this because on the one hand, people really love them. It's great discussion fodder and it's always fun to do. But people also especially love getting mad when their favorite player, their favorite teams and as high as they think it is. And especially, you know, I'm going to say it now just so you don't have to keep repeating it once we go into it. But the margin, not necessarily the margin for error,

but the wiggle room between some of these guys is so small that you could basically, if you're talking about the 19th guy and the 13th or something like that, those guys are ultimately pretty interchangeable. Like, they're both probably going to be great players. And even there's like, you know, we stopped this at 20 just for time constraints, just because if we went further, like this would be like a four-hour podcast. but in reality you could probably make a list of like 30 or 40 centers like the position in today's NHL is so deep down the middle that you really could go you know we're not going to talk about a handful of guys

who are premium top number one centers that any team would love to have as their number one guy and it's just that's kind of the nature of this type of a project so we'll do a couple of honorable mentions but ultimately we won't be able to get to get to everyone and if we don't get to your favorite a player. It's not necessarily a sign of disrespect or us thinking that player is not good. It's just a matter of kind of we have to eventually cut this list down at some point. Yeah, for sure. And I feel like this is one thing where like everybody gets focused on the number where the ranking is, but like look at the total when I'm listening out to players and look how small the differences are. And like part of that is because like the more statistics that you use, the less chance that one player is

going to be tops or even near the top at all of them. So, like, you get a more, uh, more parity in the statistics. So like, you get a lot more separation at the top. Like Connor McDavid is like 11 points higher than the person in 10th place. But then you go 11 points further down and you're all the way down in like 45th. Right. So it's kind of the same way it goes with, uh, you know, if you look at points per 60 or most statistics really in the NHL. There's like that separation at the top and then there's a huge glut of people in that mid-range that are all like good top line or close to it guys. Yeah.

And ultimately, as you said, it's supposed to be a fun exercise above all else. Like there's not that much practical value here. Like, you know, sometimes we do these podcaster lists and you're like highlighting guys who are under the radar, you know, players that provide much better value than people generally expect and then you know stuff like that could actually have practical value from the perspective of a team could potentially target that type of a player trade or you know make some use of it and in this grand scheme of things it's like us telling you that nicholas backstrom is slightly better than ryan gets laugh or something like that is like ultimately the ducks and the and the

capitals are probably not going to be trading those two players so um it just kind of take that for what it is but it is at the end of the day it's supposed to be a fun exercise and with that said um let's do honorable mentions here before we get into our top 20. Who were, give me a couple of names that didn't make your list that you, that either just missed it or you really kind of had a tough time leaving off because you like them for whatever reason. Yeah, I mean, I'm, I, looking through it, there's various guys that kind of miss out for unfair reasons, I'll say.

Like Michael Backland, he just, just missed the top 20 this year. He ranked 23rd. And the biggest reason for that is simply that he was super unlucky last year. And even after accounting for a terrible PDO and adjusting for difficulty of minutes and all that, he still, it didn't make up for his lack of point production and lack of on ice goals, goals for percentage. So that really knocked him down. I feel like he's probably a top 20 center in an average year.

But he just didn't quite make it last year. Yeah. Yeah, he was on my list. William Carlson just missed the customer cover me. Yeah, I mean, William Carlson's an interesting one because he had this insane year last year. And then his previous two years for me were, like, he was like when he was taken by Vegas, I was like, what on earth are they doing? Because he ranked as like one of the worst players at his position.

Like he was just not good. And obviously they knew something that none of us did. but like even factoring in last year, he was ranked down like 53rd by my metrics. So I fully expect him to be higher. But at the same time last year, you know, 24% shooting percentage or whatever it was. Of course. Probably not going to happen again. But even if he's a 20 goal scorer, like his defensive play last year took a huge step.

He was pretty good carrying the puck. So I expect to see him, you know, not necessarily be a top line center, but to settle in somewhere in the second line area. Yeah, no, I agree with that. A few other names that I had. I both Stahl Brothers, I had under strong consideration, ultimately, didn't wind up having a Mikul Koiwu, who probably should have won the Selki last year and is a tremendous defensive player. I had a, I thought about him.

It's really tough when you're talking about some of the caliber names on this list to have a guy who had 14 goals and 45 points. I understand that, you know, he's not used in that. way and I'm sure that he probably could have more offensive production if he was used in softer matchups but at the end of the day we are nitpicking here with some of these guys and ultimately like the fact that he didn't put up the offensive numbers when some of the other guys are you know not necessarily equally as good defensively but close enough and are putting up significantly better offensive numbers I feel like that ultimately was one of the big reasons why

I just couldn't have in my top 20 yeah I'm with you there on koi bu and I feel like I remember like when I was writing about the Selke last year, I had it in my head that it was for like the best two way forward. But that's not what it actually is. Like if you actually look up the definition of the award, it is like purely defensive forward. That's how, but it definitely is awarded for the best two way forward. So that's one of those weird ones that, you know, the public way of awarding it is not the same as what's written down. But yeah, he wasn't quite in my top 30ish range. both Stahl Brothers were, I think the guy that was probably the toughest to leave out in terms of,

you know, where his career is trending was Sean Couturier. He took a huge step last year. And like, obviously part of it was, you know, hanging on to Claude Jureux's career year. But he took a big step offensively with getting to the net. He was like a monster for high danger scoring chances. And he remains a fantastic defensive forward who I feel like he makes more. impact defensively than his on-ice numbers give him credit for. That's like a consistent thing that I try to figure out. If a player has like an incredible coursey 4 percentage, for example, but then I look at what they're doing individually and there's just nothing really showing up,

are those numbers just, you know, a mirage or are they doing something that we can't track yet? Like are they just phenomenal positionally? and it's a question that I feel like we're not prepared to answer yet. Yeah, definitely not obviously when we have more information. I think in a couple years we'll be better, will we better equipped to answer that. I had Cretary actually as my number 20. So that was a perfect, perfect segue into getting into this list.

Yeah, obviously you laid out the case there for him. I think, you know, he jumped up massively last year, offensively to 30 plus goals, 76. points and part of that certainly was playing with Claudeau quite a bit. I think it's kind of impossible to separate the chicken or the egg were sort of what was responsible for that because you could make the argument equally that Claudeau wouldn't have had that career year if he wasn't afforded the luxury of not playing down the middle and not having a guy like Sean Cotriere doing so much that heavy lifting for him and freeing him up offensively. So I think it was

just kind of one of those things where it was a match made in heaven between those two and I think the bigger, bigger thing for me is Katrina finally stayed healthy last year. I mean, he played all 82 games. Obviously, he got injured in the postseason and hopefully he'll be able to replicate that this year. But yeah, I mean, after, you know, being a guy who for the past couple years before that always seemed to kind of miss around 10, 15 games with random injuries here or there, he really strung together his first full complete season and put it together offensively and defensively. And at the end of the day, I thought it was good enough to crack this list. But I'm glad to hear that, because I noticed that he noticed that he, wasn't on yours. So I'm glad to hear that he was at least, you know, someone that you put a lot of thought into. Yeah, he was in terms of the numbers, number 21. So he just, just narrowly got beat out by Vincent Trocheck. Okay. Well, do you want to talk a bit about Vincent Trochec?

Yeah. He's a, he's a heck of a player. I don't know why, like, I feel like, you know, you and I know a lot about Vincent Trochec, but I feel like the average person, because he plays in Florida, still doesn't really know about Vincent Trocheck. And even last year, he had like a breakout offensive year, even though he's been,

I mean, I guess it's his like second breakout, right? He had like the breakout into the 50 point range, and then last year he just like crushed it once he was given better line mates. So he's an interesting player to me. What actually surprised me was he ranked lower than last year

because his defensive play collapsed a little bit last year. So I don't expect that to continue, but he's a player that, you know, is in the right age range. He's in his prime. He plays behind Alexander Barkov, which gives him an advantage in terms of quality of competition. And also now, like this year he's playing with Hubertow and Hoffman. That's a line that I don't know how teams are going to stop it. They just adding Hoffman to that line, like not only is Trocheck really good at getting down low into the slot and creating those chances. is Hoffman's a guy who can score from a distance.

So now you've got like, they can attack you from anywhere and be legitimate goals, goal scoring threats. That's just an incredible line. And I feel like Hoffman is a guy also who gets a bad rap defensively. He has like unplugged controller moments at times. But in terms of like his overall play over an 82 game season, he's actually a pretty decently good impact defensive winger.

So that's a super interesting one for me. I can see Trocheck actually flirting with point per game status in the next couple years here. Yeah, he's got the talent for it. And obviously the usage, especially if it continues how they were using him in Barkov last year, where it seemed like especially as the year went on, it was just, it was like one of those two guys was pretty much on the ice at all times. And they kind of just cut out their bottom six. So if he's going to be playing in that 21 plus minute range again, that obviously

goes into the volume of just accumulating. those points and and he certainly got the talent so yeah no i think uh if i had he would have been like around 25 for me or so he was definitely under consideration um but i had chan katrari a bit ahead of him so who do you give me a give me a couple of the names after that then so you have trochick at 20 yeah and by the numbers i had david crichy at 19 but i feel like i kind of alter my list on the pdf so you're looking more towards the future instead of just uh the past so i actually had Tyler Sagan at 19, who was 25 on my list by the numbers because his transition game has collapsed in the last couple years. But I think that that change in coaching is going to bring back to Tyler Sagan who could really carry the puck and be a dynamic controlled entry guy that we saw earlier in his career.

I think he's primed for a really, really dynamic season. And I mean, I guess the Jets kind of found out about that last game that was a bit brutal the way that top line cannibalized. Yeah, no, I tweeted about this, but it's only been a couple games now, so you don't want to read too much into it and you don't want to get carried away. But it looks like the stars are back to being fun to watch again after that bizarre. I mean, obviously last year under Hitchcock, but even the year before, they were just such a mess. It was kind of hard to watch at times. And it looks like they're, I don't know if they were going to be as good as they were a couple years ago where they were a game away from making the Western Conference final. But they certainly seem poised to at least bounce back to something resembling that. And that's obviously a great sign for the stars for Sagan, for their fans, and for hockey fans, because they left a void in my life, not getting to watch the stars play exciting games. Yeah, not to get too sidetracked, but that first shift by Miro Haskine and I was like, are you kidding me? Yeah. That's something special right there. So I feel like that jumps up your watchability, your rankings a little bit. Della stars after like two games or whatever. Well, it's two things. It's obviously like the ability

to actually pull that off. Like that's one thing. But it's it's sort of the mindset of like that being your first shift in the NHL. Yeah. This big summer where people are like, I can't believe they're not trading this guy for Carlson. And then like to just go out there and unleash like that is special because we see far too often in the NHL that especially with young players are sometimes so conservative just because they know that if they, if he winds up turning that over, he could very

well wind up being benched. And so it's like guys generally kind of err on the side of caution and the fact that he was just like, you know what, I'm just going to go and he was going to make this play repeatedly and just see what happens. I love that. I love that mindset. I love the skill and hopefully we see more of that as the year goes along. I'd say again at 17 on my list. You know, it's kind of similar to what I was saying in Boketri.

He bounced back health-wise last year as well. And, you know, had a big offensive season, scored a ton of goals, got back to looking like Tyler Sagan. And if they do keep that line together this year with Radulov and Ben moving forward and based on how they looked against Winnipeg, I don't see why they wouldn't for the time being. all three of those guys could have monster and monster numbers. Yeah, and I feel like also the impact of Jason Spetsa looking more like Jason Spetsa this year,

it's underrated how much that can impact a guy like Tyler Sagan where like a bit of that pressure to be the one center is is off, like not like he's going to get fewer minutes or anything, but you don't have like that pressure every night where like if you don't score, we're going to lose. So you can play a little bit looser and I think the points are going to be, you know, even easier to come by for that line. Man, that line is just so dangerous, so skilled. And they come at you in so many different ways. And they're all like, I don't know, I wouldn't call Sagan strong for an NHL player.

But Radjelov and Ben are just monsters on the puck. It's a tough one to battle that line. Above Tyler Sagan, I had Leon Drysidal. I moved him down a little bit off of the numbers list just because I'm less confident in him being a great center, then the numbers seem to be just because of the whole Connor McDavid factor and that he doesn't seem to be able to stick at center.

Not through any fault of his own necessarily, but just the Oilers have so few wingers that they just keep on putting him with McDavid because he can actually play with him. Yes. Yeah, that's going to be an interesting situation to follow because, you know, towards the end of last year, they seemed insistent on playing Ryan Nugent Hopkins on that McDavid wing and bumping Leon Drysettle down to play center.

And then I believe they started that way in their opener in Sweden against the Devils, but then as the game went along, we did see Drysettle bump up to that wing a bit. So I'm curious, obviously, I think if he does get to play with McDavid at 5-1-5, his numbers are going to positively reflect that. But he's probably more valuable to the Oilers playing. down the middle and giving them another scoring line if he can if he can handle that and carry his own line made so it's tough because these are the questions that we hopefully would have had fully answered before they gave him a monster contract but yes exactly the fact that we still don't entirely know that and you know there's no reason to believe necessarily that he can't like he's got all the tools and has been wildly productive early in his NHL career but yeah how

kind of differentiating how much of that is Connor McDavid effect and how much of that is Leon Dre Seidel being a top 20 center you'd like to think that we'd know more certainly based on how much he's being paid these days. Yeah, and he was one of the guys that like I've been a little bit skeptical of for a couple years just because of the McDavid thing.

So I really focused in on when I was like collecting all the data like how he ranked in like the individual metrics that you know, they're affected by line mates but like they're less than the on-ice stuff. And he ranks really, really well, especially offensively and transitionally. He's a monster with the puck on his stick

in all three zones, really. He's just excellent at moving it up the ice. So he's a guy that I think the talent is real. I'm just not sure how high he can fly, right? To use a cliche. No, I think that's entirely fair, and these are the

questions that we should be asking. So you had Trochuk 20, SIG, Jan 19 on this list and then Dreised out of 18? Correct. And then do you have Jonathan Taves coming up? I feel like.

I do. I have Taves at 17. He moved up big time for me this year. I think factoring in a more heavy difficulty score helped him a little bit. And also he's actually been better than people believe the last couple years. His offensive numbers have been hurting,

especially his goal scoring with like career low shooting percentages. But he's actually like, improved his play overall three years straight. So I feel like this start of the season where I think he already has like five goals, it's a bit of a surprise, but I feel like this was coming. Like this was, he was due to borrow a Norris voters conversation piece. He's there, you know, like I feel like we're not going to see prime level taves where he's like 70 points, 35 goals. But I think that he's still a top.

in the center in this league and he has the defensive impact to to back up a bit of a loss in offense and his transition impact has also gotten better the last three years so he's focused more on on being good in certain areas that don't necessarily produce goals directly and I think the black hawks are going to be a lot better for it yeah no it's it's funny how uh in such a short time like how just a change and sort of perception of of of the the team and of the narrative that we're having and in the bigger picture can change the way we view a player. And Taze is obviously a great example of that. It seems like just a couple years ago where people were legitimately having a discussion of Taves or Crosby. And that was silly

at the time. But it was, you know, at least kind of meriting, putting him up there in that upper echelon of players. And now it's only been a couple years and he's still not necessarily like, it's not like he's physically declining that much or anything. So the fact that he's down here, like I, I had him just missing my list, but I didn't mention him in honorable mentions because I did. I knew you had him here, so I kind of wanted a way to talk about him. But yeah, you're right. I think obviously having Alex DeBrincat as a running mate is going to help him quite a bit and rejuvenate a little bit. And that shooting percentage, sort of similar to what happened with Anzi Coppito over the past two years, like if that balances that back up a bit, all of a sudden

he could get back to scoring 30-something goals. And people be like, oh, Jonathan Taves, he's not done. He's actually back. And, you know, we're seeing that he has five goals and his first. first three games and he won't keep scoring on like one out of every two shots he takes or whatever, but it's obviously a very encouraging start for him. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if he had a bit of a throwback of vintage offensive season. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to watch him. I think he's definitely a candidate to have that, you know, Anzi Kopitar level season, like you said. And, you know, I don't think he's as good as Kopitar anymore, but I don't know if he ever really was quite at that level. I think he was, he was, he was, he was,

still fantastic, but I feel like he was a little bit overrated for his prime of his career, just because, you know, Blackhawks and leadership and all that. But yeah, I'm super interested. And I also feel like I root for Taves, not just because, you know, I tend to, you know, when he was being compared to Crosby, I was definitely one of the people who made fun of him a lot. And then when his reputation kind of like went down, I was like, you know, he's not that bad. So I kind of like forced myself to go like counterculture, I think. But also, I feel like he's just a cool guy. And he's one of the few NHLers who speaks out politically, and he's actually pretty progressive.

So I feel like that also makes me root for him as much as that's like off topic and not really part of what we're talking about. No, no, you're right. I'm positively, I'm kind of weirdly optimistic about Taves and that game the other night between the Blackhawks and Elise was something else. Oh, it's fantastic. I don't know, you know, they've been good so far. I guess they're what, like 2-0 and 1 or something. That was their only loss and it was an overtime against the Leaves, but, man, Cam Ward, wow.

Yeah, that's an interesting choice, hey? I'll save that for when we're ranking our top 20 goals. He's number one. Yes, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's take a quick break here to hear from a sponsor, and we're going to pick up the discussion on the other and things. The PDOCAST has a new sponsor in M&D's, and I'm pretty fired up to talk about them today.

Whenever I'd listen to other podcasts and I'd hear the hosts raving about Mionys, I never really fully bought in or appreciated it. I got this picture of them being this cool new hip underwear brand with the fun crazy print, but I never really kind of understood that there's real substance to it until I finally tried on a pair of myself the other day. Now they're a partner in the Mendi's, they send me over some socks, some fun new underwear, and I put it on and I really realized it is the most comfortable. thing I've ever worn. They use this micro-mortile fabric, which is a full three-time softer than regular cotton, and you're going to really appreciate that fact once you put it on, and you're not going to want to take it off. I think, honestly, moving forward, Miondi's is all I'm going to be rocking. They also release fun multiple new prints each month. In matching socks and brawlets, you can get a matching pair with your partner. They're seasonally appropriate, so now they're celebrating

the fall season and Halloween coming up. They've got, you know, some quirky jack-o-lantern prints and all sorts of good stuff like that so you can really kind of get into it and spice things up. And they've also got a 100% satisfaction guarantee. They're so sure they're going to love the underwear that if they can't, for whatever reason, get you into the right pair and really make you a believer, they're going to let you keep them and they're going to refund you. So it really is a risk-free way to try the best underwear out there.

And Meandis now has a great offer for my listeners. if you're not already convinced for some reason, and you've never purchased with them before for any first-time purchasers, when you go to Meandis and you buy something, you're going to get 15% off. It's a no-brainer, really. You get 15% off a pair of the most comfortable underwear

you're ever going to put on. So to take advantage of that offer and get 15% off your first pair and 100% satisfaction guarantee, all you have to do is go to Miundis.com slash PDO. That's meandies.com slash PDO. Now, let's get back to the Hockey Piedokiness. Okay. So we're up to, let's do a bit of my list now because we're up to, I guess, the top 16 on yours. And I have, so this is, it's getting tough here, man. So we've only done number 20 online, Sean Cotri. This is like the meat, right? Like 35 to 15 or even like to 12 is like it's so tough. There's so many in the middle there.

Yeah, and so I'd say again at 17 on mine. 19 is a player who I felt weird putting this low down the list because I feel like you could make a case for him being significantly higher and based on name brand value, I think people will be surprised. But I had Stephen Stamcoast at 19. Yeah, Stamcoast fell down a lot for me as well. I had him at 14. Yeah.

You know, obviously it was great to see that he was healthy for the most part last year and he put up big offensive numbers. It's weird because I wonder if he's moving into a different stage of his career now in terms of what he profiles like as a player. I wonder if he's going to be a bit more of a playmaking type than kind of that pure lethal one-shot score. Like, listen, he shot 12-something percent last year, which for most players is a pretty darn good season.

But just based on the injuries and sort of the age of the age of the. this point and where he's at in his career, I wonder if we will see that prime Steven Stamco's where he's approaching 20% as just a ridiculous generational all-time finisher. I wonder if he's ever going to be able to turn back the clock like that for a full season. And he could still be, as he was last year, very effective, but it might just be as a bit of a different type of player. Yeah, he's super interesting to me because on the one hand, he's gone from pretty much a premier shooter who only gets assists on his rebounds to like his shot has kind of not been as effective the last couple years and now all of a sudden he's I mean part of it's that he's

passing to Nikita Kutrov but he's putting in the work to be close to an elite level playmaker the last couple years but what surprised me about Stamco's is uh last was it last year or the year before we only played like 20 games uh whichever season that was not this lot, I mean, like, six and seven, yeah, two years ago. So that year, he actually had like a breakout season in terms of defensive play and transition play. He went from being okay to being like really, really good. And he kind of carried that through to last year as well when, like, I feel like he was underrated and how good the lightning actually were. Or no, sorry, not last year. 1617 was the year that he was really good there. But last year, he really fell apart defensively

to the point where he was one of the lowest impact defensive players at center, like not to trash Alex Galchernic, but he was around the same defensive impact as Alice Galenic at center, which, you know, notoriously has been a big thing in Montreal in terms of stories. So I feel like if he's not more involved away from the puck, that whole issue where you remember when John Cooper was trying to play him on the wing, I wonder if that comes back a little bit. because you've got to as a center be a lot more involved in like stopping passes through to the slot.

You've got to, you know, engage with players in the neutral zone a lot more. And he just didn't last year. I have no idea why maybe he was playing with a little injury that was slowing him up a little bit. But I would like to see what he looks like this year without the puck and with the puck in the neutral zone before I think that, you know, Stamcoast could be back up to his peak levels because he's really bounced around this list for me. because he has kind of been, you know, either an all-out offense or his offense suffers and he's a great all-around player and then all-out offense the next year. So, like, I feel like he didn't even make the list in 2015-16 or he was really low. And then last year, I had him, like, top six or something like that.

And then this year, he's down to 14. So I don't know, like, it's super strange to be this late in a player's career for Stamco's and I don't know what player he is. you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I agree. And even if his shot has or will continue to deteriorate a bit, like he's still going to be so effective as a playmaker just because of that, because of who he is in the memory of Seams Tamquist, like teams are still going to have to play him for that shot.

And he's shown that he has the vision and the passing ability to do that cross-seam pass over to Kuturov. And the East-West action, they do it particularly on the power play is one of the most fun things to watch in the league. So he's got, you know, he's still an awesome player. Listen, I have him 19 on my list. He's ahead of some really, really big names that are awesome players in their own right. So the fact that he's down here isn't a slight at all, it's just that, you know,

maybe sort of the perception and sort of where he's at in his career, we should change the way we think and talk about Stephen Samco's because that's all I'm saying. Yeah, and I feel like also there's some hit to your reputation that comes with you no longer being the best player in your team, right? And Nikita Kucharov has been so good the last few years that, You just don't think about Samcoast as often. Well, and not even, not being the best player in your own team, but I am going to go so far as to say I don't think he's the best center on his own team anymore. I've seen a few people say this.

I think point is close, but I don't know if I'd put him there yet. I bet you. And this is, and we can get into danger here, dangerous waters here, because, you know, players don't always progress in sort of that stepwise fashion. So sometimes there's a lot of. ups and downs, and it might be a bit of a reach to say this, but I think when you're doing this list next year, I think Brayton Point is going to be ahead of Stephen Stamcoast on it. That's interesting. I mean, the potential's there. I actually had him rated above Stamcoast

last season, but the season before and the lack of 2015-16 season for point, there's less room for him to be able to move up. He had to be, you know, to go from being a rookie, and you could have a great sophomore year, but you still have to have that, like, the rookie years are usually not as highly rated as, you know, a point total makes it look. There's, you know, gaps in their game. So, yeah, it could definitely happen. I wouldn't be that surprised just because Stamcoast, both in 2015-16 and 2017-18, was not as impressive as I expected him to be. No, he wasn't. And point, I mean, some of this is kind of just a bit of recency bias, but he just, man, he loved to. A bit of shiny new car bias.

Well, yeah, and he looked so darn good in that postseason run they had. Oh, yeah. And he was their best player, I thought. Yeah, and I think even the regular season, I mean, if you look at it objectively, I think Point was the more effective 5-1-5 player. It's just he didn't get to play with Kutrov, obviously, and he got fewer powerplay opportunities. So I think, like, if you swap those two things,

I wonder what their point totals would look like, no pun intended. But, yeah, no, I, so I've point actually 16 on my list. So I'm all in on the break. in point train and maybe part of that is reckless on my part, but I'm completely buying his stock. So who do you... Actually, let me catch up to you on my list.

Yeah, for sure. I have Cotrari 20. I had Stamcoast 19. I have Ryan O'Reilly 18. And I wanted to bump him out that far down. Yeah, I love Ryan O'Reilly as a player. And I think based on his new environment, he could have an awesome, awesome season and bump up this list next year.

It's just, I had this, I just, I guess at the end of the day, I just liked some of the players slightly more that I had ahead of him. But like, he's, he's awesome. And he's a great example of what we were talking about earlier, where if you wanted to have him at 12 or something on this list and I know you have him a bit higher, I'm perfectly okay with that. I'm not going to fight you for it. I just, I had him 18 and then, and that's where I felt comfortable putting him. Yeah, I don't think, like, like we talked about before, like the gap between 18 to 12 is not that large. I feel like Ryan O'Reilly kind of suffers a little bit that he's not offensively dynamic, right? Like he is a really good playmaker, but he's not flashy.

Where he really excels is like all the little parts of the game that like you and I pay attention to a lot. But like the average, not to denigrate the average viewer, but like when you're not spending a work week investigating hockey, you probably don't see all the little things that Ryan O'Reilly is so good at. and that's probably why his reputation doesn't really catch up to, you know, where you and I would rank him. Like, I remember when he was traded, a bunch of people were really shocked when I said he was a top 15 center in the NHL. And obviously you rank him right below there, but it's the same range. We'll say top 20, whatever. And people didn't even believe he was a first line center, which, you know, I find crazy.

But it's one of those things where, you know, a guy who I think the other thing is you look at his offensive. numbers and I always assume that Ryan O'Reilly puts up less points than he does because he's not as dynamic looking right so like last year when he apparently said that he had lost his love for the game I believe he still had like 65 points or something on the sabers well part of that was also like they were just using him an insane amount because he was pretty much yeah but yeah but like he's still putting up good numbers despite the fact that he apparently hated playing hockey last year which Like, that's, that's rough. I feel like any job where you hate going in every day, that's, that's pretty rough.

Absolutely. Yeah, no, that's going to, even if it's in more subtle way, he's going to have an impact on your effectiveness. And, yeah, no, he's, uh, it looks like he's going to be playing with Teresanko all here. So that's a pretty sweet combo. I know a great spot for him to slide into, and I'm sure he's going to, he's going to love his new dig. So, yeah, I'm just guessing he's not going to hate playing there.

Yeah, I think he's going to have an okay time. And the Blues are going to be really good. So, um, I had him at 18. I had Sagan at 17, point at 16. So now let's continue on with your list. So who you have? I had, I had, uh, Evgeny Kuznetsov, which I, I was shocked that I had him further down the list,

but it's one of those things where, you know, you're, you're trying to figure out where people fit and you just like a few people a little bit more than him. But man, he, like, his transition effectiveness, like his ability to attack off the rush. I was actually surprised that like outside of zone entries, He's a little bit weak transitionally. He's a bit of a turnover machine when he's passing the puck. But his ability to attack off the rush might be second to only Connor McDavid in terms of like not just creating those rush opportunities, but creating rush opportunities where you're also like moving the puck east-west, either with skating or passing.

And having that multiple tool offense where you're just as dangerous of a shooter as you are a passer. And I guess it also doesn't hurt to play with Alex Ovech can be. your passing option. Yeah, no, that'll be a nice little boost for you. I'm surprised to hear that as well because, look, I remember when you and I, I think I had you on to do the Stanley Cup final preview last summer, and we were talking, and it wound up bearing out

that, you know, Vegas had done so much of their damage in terms of their forecheck and kind of stifling other teams' breakouts out of their own zone. And we thought the capitals might be able to counteract that just because guys like Cousinetsoff and Lars L.R. we're doing so much heavy heavy lifting taking the puck out of their own zone and he was so good in the postseason i thought at kind of going back behind his net and then skating it out and showing off that dynamic skating and um so yeah i think he's he's just because he's rushing in because he puts up big point totals and he's playing with ovechkin i think he gets thought of

or pigeonholed a little bit as just being a purely offensive guy but i mean we're seeing it and we're seeing it this year as well i'm very curious to see how it's going to impact his overall season, but I believe they're going to be using them quite a bit more on the penalty kill this year with Jay Beagle gone. So I'm fascinated to see how much of that, how that's going to affect his overall play and whether he's going to be able to thrive of that. I don't see why you wouldn't. I'm a big fan of having offensive players on the penalty kill just because I feel like, you know, if you're making the other team uncomfortable with even the possibility that you could actually do something with a puck whenever you get it and you're kind of disrupting with your

speed, I think that's more effective than sitting back and blocking shots. So if he adds that to his game as well, like we could be talking about him as one of the top handful of guys this time next year. Yeah. And this is a move that like as soon as I heard about it, I just had this huge like ear to ear grin because I love that kind of thinking from a coaching staff. And I love that Kuznetsov asked for it because, you know, without the puck at even strength, he's not a great defender. But the thing is like what makes a good defender at even strength is not the same on the penalty kill, especially at forward. So, like, the fact that he has that quick agility and a quick stick, you know, maybe he's not going to be the most aggressive defender at five on five, but you're forced to be aggressive on the penalty kill. And his ability to, like, immediately transition to offense.

It just backs teams off. And I think he's going to be fantastic, you know, like, I think that that's going to be, he could score, like, five, six short-handed goals this year. We don't know. I think that's going to be a great decision by the Washington Capitals. And one of those things, like one of those little changes that can kind of put them right back in the conversation this year, which I kind of came into the year thinking that was great. They captured the magic, but I don't think they're contenders this year. Little decisions like that where you're changing things to just modernize your strategies a little bit, they could be right back in their next, this year. Yeah, no, 100%.

I have them, I have them 12 on my list. So I'm, yeah, I love giving you kuznets off. Give me all the, all the Kuznets of stock. Who do you have after Coupes? I have Mark Schifley, which I had him much higher in previous lists, but last year he just took a bit of a step down defensively. And I think that it's hard to measure how much he's grown offensively because that top line with Winnipeg is so complete.

And I think that most of their effectiveness is just, in like that high danger area where and the rest of the ice they are kind of a little bit weaker than average so it's hard for me to balance out like what matters more the small sample size stuff that they happen to consistently beat you know pdo or the large sample stuff where they're actually getting out shot and outplayed yeah it was a weird i mean obviously great season for the jits they finally realized their potential and i'm still shocked they didn't make the stand like a final but, you know, heading into the year, we were like, oh, you know, they had the top guys, the top line or two is going to be dominant again.

And I wonder if the third line and especially the bottom six can hold up there under the bargain. And for most of the year, like the underlying number suggested that the bottom six was actually thriving. And the top line was, you know, Wheeler and Sheffley's numbers kind of dipped a little bit in terms of underlying statistics. Obviously, they were producing quite a bit offensively, but it was kind of just one of those head scratching things. I wonder just how, like, because it doesn't really seem to be that much of a logical explanation for why that would happen because both Wheeler and Shifley are so darn, so darned good, and Kyle Conner is great.

So it's, it's, I think they're going to be fine and Shifley showed in the postseason just how dominant he can be. And I had him at, um, I had him at 11 on my list just ahead of his nets off. So I'm, uh, I'm a big fan. And I, I know he was kind of a bit of a trendy, uh, MVP pick this season. and I haven't seen anything from the Jets so far. I know that they had a bit of a hiccup there in Dallas, but I think that speaks more to how good the stars are going to be this year

than any faults with Winnipeg. I was just marveling at the fact, especially in that season opener against St. Louis, where they have this extra gear they can hit, where St. Louis was actually playing pretty well, and I believe it was like 1-0 for a long time for Winnipeg, and then all of a sudden I look up and it's 5-0, and they got a bunch of goals from a bunch of different guys,

and they're scoring short-handed, and the third line's chipping in and you're just like, man, this team has so many weapons. Like, I know this is nothing to do with Mark Schifley, but on most teams in this league, like would Kyle Connor be like the second best player on them? And when we're listing the guys on Winnipeg, you have to wait so long just to get to him. That's crazy. I mean, yeah, Nick Eilers is playing on the third line right now is just monstrous. And then you have a young guy like Roslovich who looks like he's going to be like a top two caliber center or a top two line.

caliber center. They're incredible. I feel like their ability to just put teams away is what to always shocks me. Whereas most teams would try to like eke out a two goal or one goal win, the Jets are just like, well, let's just score five more in the third period. And then we don't have to worry so much. And they just do it. They're an incredible team, and they can kind of come at you any way you want to

play. They can be the most physical team in the league. They could be the most dynamic, offensive team in the league. They're fun, man. and Sheifley is a big part of that. I think he's probably the most effective offensive player, like in terms of overall ability on that team. He's actually had a really good start to the year,

whereas the rest of his line has not. They've only been okay. So I'm interested to see what he can do this year because if he bounces back in terms of driving possession and all that little stuff, he's right back into the top 10 for me. Yeah, I want to. wonder, in terms of the underlying numbers and some of the stuff you're seeing in the transition, like it just feels like from watching that, like generally speaking in the past,

Blake Wheeler has done quite a bit of that. I wonder obviously he is, because he's at a bit of a different stage of his career and I wonder, um, with that recent contract, I mentioned they gave him, I understand what he means to that franchise and city and, and you sort of have to reward a guy like that, but I wonder it seems like eventually like that, that torch is going to be passed. If it hasn't already to Mark Shifley and he's going to become the guy. So I'm kind of curious to see how that's going to go as well. Yeah, it's super interesting. And I feel like Blake Wheeler is just such an elite level playmaker. And he's really found ways to like continually reinvent himself as he's, he's not old yet, but no, he's getting there. He has quite a bit of miles on him. I mean,

he's been around. Yeah, he does. Yeah, I mean, I think people forget that he even played in Boston, right? So that's, uh, he's, he was on the thrashers too, wasn't he when he was traded? He was, he goes all the way back so. For Dennis Wyman, I believe. And Rich Peverly? Yeah. Classic Shirelli. Yeah, that's good trade.

Good trade. It's crazy how many elite players Shia Rele is trading. Let's not get into this. No style. We can do a whole podcast on Shia Reilly trades. Yeah. But yeah, Wheeler's fantastic. Above him, I had Stamco's.

I think we've already talked about him. So who did you have at 14? So at 14, I have I have Ryan Getzelph. That makes sense. Yeah. At this point of his career, I mean, I don't know if there's anything necessarily and you're insightful that I could add because of the conversation.

Like, I guess sometimes just based on the fact that he's playing out on the West Coast on Anaheim, he gets kind of forgotten a bit in the discussion of the top centers in the game, but, you know, we saw two years ago now, I guess, in that postseason run for Anaheim when they made the Western Conference final, like just how he has this unique sort of of Joe Thornton-like effect on the game where he's one of the few guys during a time when the game is speeding up and everyone seems to be just playing at this frantic tempo. Once he gets the puck, he can kind of just slow it down and force everyone to play his game. And he controls and shields the puck so well.

And, you know, with that reach and that vision from up there, he's such a phenomenal distributor. And it's crazy, man. Like last night we're recording this on Tuesday morning. Last night, he was out. and obviously Kessler is still out and just looking at that Ducks lineup and I know they won and they're having a good start to the season

in the standings but just when you subtract him from that team it's like oh my God Ryan Getslap is so important still and I'm not sure that's a great position for Anheim to be in based on his age and how long he's been around but he's still so effective

that I think he merits a lot of love and being this high on the list and I'm glad that we are talking about him because generally when we're talking about it, because he's just been around for so long and maybe just because the way he plays, like he's not necessarily on the highlight reel that often. So for whatever reason,

people just aren't really talking about it. But especially when he came back from injury last year, he was so good and it just wasn't a thing that people were really considering. Yeah, I had him inside my top 10 at number nine. Every single year, I watched like the first few games of the year that gets left plays,

and I watch him skate, and I'm like, how is this guy still an elite player? but he just manages to do it, the combination of like puck skills and pure strength and smarts. Like he's a great transition player, which makes no sense for a player that's slow, but it's kind of the same deal as Yarmor Yager, right? Like as much as I got made fun of last year for my Yager take

being a top, I think it was a top 10 right winger. And then he was out of the league. Actually, his numbers were quite good in Calgary. They were just really smart or really stupid, sorry. But anyway, he just is able to continually find ways through that neutral zone, either picking his way through players with great stick handling at slow speeds

or passing to teammates or just like bowling through them like their pins and he's a bowling ball. It's he just impresses me so much. And then there's the offensive game, which like he's still an elite level playmaker. And somehow at his age with all the injuries that he's had is essentially a point per game player. I wonder how different our perspective of Ryan Getslap would be if he shot a little bit more in his prime, right? When he was like a 15% shooter for like six years and he was shooting like one and a half

times a game, I feel like if he would double that, just be a little bit more selfish and he was scoring like 25 to 30 goals every year instead of, you know, like 11 to 19. and having like a couple great goal scoring seasons. And, you know, then we'd be looking at like multiple 85 point years for him in that prime range or maybe even more. Like we would probably be saying first ballot Hall of Famer instead of, yeah, he could probably make it in. Oh, he, I mean, are people saying he's not a first ballot Hall of Famer?

Oh, I don't know. I'm just assuming that most people don't see him that way. I don't know if he's first ballot just because I feel like you. need to have quite the reputation to be first ballot. I mean, then again, he's, you know, been a still stable hockey candidate guy, so that helps as well. And he's won a Stanley Cup. I mean, he's going to get to a thousand points probably, assuming no catastrophic injury

to come up here. Yeah, he might. And the other thing is, I think also he won his Stanley Cup so young, right? So, like, sometimes that memory kind of fades over time, and maybe he'll wait until the second year of availability, who knows. but I just think he's, you know, not a generational player, but he's right up there in terms of like the next tier. I'm so impressed with Brian Getslaff and his longevity.

It's really incredible. Yeah, I mean, last year, he only played 56 games. He had 50 assists in those games. Like it's, yeah, he's already got two assists in two games this year. He's, yeah, man, he's one of the best, best passers, playmakers that I've ever seen right up there. I mean, obviously below Joe Thorne, but, in that next year. So I,

we're getting close here to the top 10, I feel like. The only names that I haven't mentioned that I had in that 11 to 20 range were Nick Backs from coming up here. And then Matt Barzell. Yeah, I didn't have Barzell just because I kind of underrate the rookies a little bit. Just because of that one year ago. Yeah, and I want to see more for him. Like I would have him, just based on last year, he's probably it.

top 15th in the NHL. He was so incredible. But I kind of keep them down in like the 25 to 30 range in my personal rankings just because I want to see if they can do it twice. But if we want to round out our 20 to 10 their range, I've got Ryan O'Reilly at 13, who we've talked about, John Tavares at 12 and Nick Baxter at 11. Okay, well, let me do a quick thing on Barsal before we get into Baxter and Tavares. I hate to break with you, Andrew, but he's gonna, he's gonna do it again this year. He, uh, from what I've seen in the first couple games, he, damn, man.

He, uh, so I believe he's already drawn like three, three penalties or maybe even four at this point. Um, he just, I was watching yesterday against the sharks and just what he's capable of doing at this early in his career and sort of the poise is remarkable where he's just drawn the defense towards him. And then it just must be so fun to play with a guy like that because basically you just have to like occupy open space and just have your stick down on the ice and you just wait for him to deliver a perfect pass and uh it led to this beautiful power play goal yesterday and

probably he could have had a couple more points if his if his teammates were better but he's i mean i think there's a bit of a concern there amongst people like people are generally pretty high on him and after you have a rookie campaign like he had like the sky's the limit but i think people were like oh i'm kind of curious to see how he's going to look without tavares there you know shouldering some of the responsibility and some of the defensive attention and now that teams really, when they're game planning for the Islanders, it's Matt Barzal and everyone else. Like, that's a bit of a different spot to be in.

But he seems like one of those players that's going to handle that in stride and not be phased at all. And I'm expecting huge things from him. I think he just, what he's capable of as that playmaker. And it's a rare quality that very few guys are able of pulling off so seamlessly. Yeah, I mean, like, Sport Logic has a stat that's essentially like how many scoring chances a player generates for their teammates at five on five per 20 minutes, right? And as you would expect, the top player in the last two years, each year, was Connor

McDavid. And that's what you expect to happen, right? But last year, it wasn't, you know, if Guinea Malcon or Nicholas Baxter or of Genni Kuznetsoff number two, it was Matt Barzaw. So that tells me that he's definitely going to be able to do it again. And he is just, it's not just the quantity of scoring chances that he creates. It's the quality. Because most of them are coming off the rush because he's so ridiculously fast, so creative.

And they're all involving either, you know, passes through the slot or to the slot, backdoor chances. Like, he's just always looking for the best possible play. And he is able to play at such a high speed that he doesn't need to, you know, slow up and survey the ice. and it just gives him such a ridiculous advantage. I'm so impressed with him. There's another cheer rally movie. Well, he's kind of like, I don't know what that one go.

He's kind of like Eichl and Taylor Hall in that transition game as well, right? Like he's one of those few guys that can kind of flip the ice single-handedly where he just gets it in his own zone. And all of a sudden, next thing you know, he's like doing loops in the offensive zone looking for an open guy. And yeah, I love that willingness. it's like Artemi Panarin like from the perspective of like he's not just necessarily looking to get rid of the puck immediately if he doesn't like what he sees he's perfectly comfortable doing a small lap and waiting for a different passing lane to open up and just so few guys in this league play that type of game so when you're watching him it's it's it's jaw dropping just to see

how comfortable he is kind of in his own skin and with a buck on a stick regardless of how many defenders are on him or kind of looking his way. So yeah, I have him, I have him 13. Baxterum, I mean, what more is there to say about him? Like playing injured last year to end the year. I know he's being used a bit differently now that because Netsov's playing on the top line with Ovechkin, but his defensive responsibility on this team and that second line with him Minoshi and now Rana are so effective and have to do so much for the capitals that allows Kuznetsov and Ovechkin to thrive. And he's just a damn good player. And he's still, even if his point totals dip a little bit, he's still equally as effective and important to his capital's team.

Yeah, he's, he's incredible. I feel like I was always a little bit of like, does Ovechkin make Baxter a little bit? Like, you know, he's a great playmaker, but is he, you know, a step or two down? from what we actually think because he's able to just feed Ovechkin over and over again and inflate his point totals. And then this year he didn't get to play with Ovechkin as much. And I kind of expected, well, you know, he's a little bit older now too. He'll, you'll see a drop in his overall play. And it didn't really happen.

He was still incredible. He's really, really underrated defensively. I feel like Nick Baxter does so much great work without the puck that he doesn't get credit for. it's one of those like prototypically Swedish things where he's just like good everywhere and everyone just expects all Swedish players to be complete players so he doesn't really get any like nods for it. I'm just, I think Baxter is, I agree with you like what's left to say because we've been fawning over him for so long, but man, he's just an incredible balanced player who is good

in all facets of the game. Like his offensive impact was actually the lowest that I had him ran. ranked like I did like percentiles and where they rank by each category of the game and he was like 19th offensively fifth in transition sixth in defense among the top centers in the game like that's incredible so I'm just I'm continually surprised by Baxter and how good he is even though I've been watching him for what feels like forever yeah yeah he just always finds new ways to to impress okay let's take a quick break here again and then we're going to do the top 10. I know we've got to get to Tavares who just missed yours,

so we'll do that on the other end. Getting tickets online can be far too complicated. With hundreds of websites and varying levels of reliability, it's hard to know who to trust out there. And that's why we're going to talk a bit about Sikh here, who's sponsoring today's episode of the HockeyPedio cast. Seek is essentially going to be a one-stop shop for whatever tickets you're looking for because they pull millions of tickets into one place so you can easily find the seats you want for a price you willing to pay. They know there's nothing quite like being there in person and CKKKK is going to help you get close to action for a great value. All you have to do is first pick the event you want to go to.

And I know now that it's October, there's so much to choose from from NHL season being in full swing, the NBA being around the corner to MLB playoffs, the NFL season. I mean, there's just so much sports goodness out there that it can be a bit overwhelming, which is why I just recommend honestly going to CKKKK and checking out what's out there. And then you pick the event, you look at the color-coded map, which grades all the seats available based on the value they're going to provide and you pick whatever's in your price range and wherever you're looking to sit for that event. And then you're essentially good to go and you know that there's a full guarantee that what

you're paying for is what you're going to get. So CKkeek really makes it that easy. It's only a couple clicks, a couple minutes and you'll be good to go to the sporting event of your choosing. And the best part is CKkeek's actually going to provide my listeners with a $20 bonus off their first CKkeek purchase just for listening to the show. All you have to do is download the CKK app and enter the promo. code PDO today. That's promo code PDO for $20 off your first C-Keekeek purchase. Now let's get back

to the show. Okay. So I actually had, I think we're officially into my top 10 and I had Tavares at nine on my list. Why did you, why do you have, why didn't I'm so low? Why is this an anti-Toronto thing? Yeah, I mean, for starters, I hate the Maple Leafs. And I think that they all suck. And in 1967. No, no. Basically, Tavares, I have a huge amount of respect for he's one of the few players in a game who can kind of identify a weakness in their game. And then the next year, they're almost elite at it.

It's kind of cross me like, right? Yeah, yeah. He kind of did that with defense. Like, he three years ago in like 2014-15, he was like among the worst defensive impact centers in the game. The next year, he was about league average. And then 2016-17, he was. was like Selke quality defensive player.

And last year, I feel like he just suffered from the general incompetence of the Islanders. So his defensive numbers took a huge hit. His transition numbers took a huge hit. His offense was the same because he's John Tavares. But, you know, if two areas of your game take a hit, you're going to fall down a little bit. So that's why he fell down for me. Maybe it's unfair to expect him to, you know, not be impacted by.

his team being a gong show, but he kind of hasn't been for his whole career, and he's been, you know, playing like that in Long Island the whole time, being fantastic. So the expectations are extraordinarily high when we get this high on the list and also when your name is John Tavares. Right. But if, you know, the beginning of the season is any indication, I think in Toronto, he'll be right back inside the top 10 next year. Yeah.

No, I mean, it's a good thing. He left that gong show to last year with Islanders to get to play in some, seven, six games with the Leafs. Yes, it's true. True, it was a very, very unfamiliar surroundings for him. No, I mean, he's going to, he's obviously going to be great in Toronto and, you know, with a hat trick already. And he's in that perfect spot on that second line with Mitch Barner and the top powerplay.

So he's going to have a huge season. And, yeah, I mean, you had him at 12 and I have him in nine, so we're right there. I had Jack Eichol 10. So did I. I feel like that's his perfect spot. We've come to a consensus. Yes. Yeah, I think that's like that.

Number 10. Yeah, I mean, listen, it's awesome that he's finally going to have people to not only help, not even help get him the fuck, just kind of be around to take a bit of the pressure off of him and the scoring load, but also guys who aren't, he's not even going to be playing with just so that it's not purely a one-man team anymore. He's looked good early on. I believe he had two goals yesterday against Vegas and yeah I mean I he's gonna have a huge season like it last year was just so weird for him because the year before Buffalo's power play was so good I believe it was like the best in the league randomly and then last year it was atrocious and he didn't really get to benefit a lot from from any kind of easy power play points it was so much five-on-five stuff and for a while there it was

like, I believe like, I want to say like 24 of his first 25 points or something were primary points. Like he was pretty much, if he wasn't either scoring it or directly setting up a goal, the Sabres just weren't scoring a goal with him on the ice. So it was like, it was just one of those things where his numbers last year are fine in a vacuum, but you really need to contextually look at it and go like, oh man, he probably could have had just a great season approaching 100 points if he had gotten any good fortune. or any luck from or any help from his teammates. So if he gets some of that this year, which I'm expecting him to get more of,

he could be one of those sneaky guys to be like a top three guy in scoring randomly. Yeah, I can see that for sure. He's a guy that, like you said, he kind of has been forced to do it himself, his whole career in Buffalo. And like, if you look at his first three seasons, it doesn't look like there's a huge amount of progression, but there definitely is, especially without the puck. defense is definitely Eichael's weakness, but he's really, really improved there the last couple years, especially over his rookie year where he was terrible.

And in terms of just like bringing the puck up the ice, there's just literally no one better at driving possession by moving the puck up the ice than Jack Eichol. He is an unbelievable puck carrier. He just finds ways to enter zones cleanly, exit zones cleanly. he's unbelievable at it he's not as dynamic as like the barzals or the macdavids but he just gets it done so that's one of those reasons why you know if he has a little bit of support from linemates that's going to help a lot of offensively because he doesn't have like not to say he isn't dynamic he's just not at that same echelon that those guys are he is still you know an incredible

top 20 in the league offensive player most likely, but he does need a little bit of contribution from linemates. Everybody does, except for McDavid. So it's going to be an interesting situation there in Buffalo now that they have a couple of guys who can help them out. I feel like Jeff Skinner is going to be really interesting to watch with Ikel because he's a guy who can't carry the puck for whatever reason at all. Huge turnover machine outside of the offensive zone.

but once you get him into the offensive zone, he's one of the league's elite offensive wingers. So as long as Eichel can get that puck into the zone, which he is better at than almost anyone, him and Skinner are going to work together quite good or quite well. Yeah, you're so excited there, quite good. I know, quite good. I'm just throwing out some bad diction there, bad sentence structure.

And to add to your point, like, you know, in basketball, they say that, you know, rebounding can be part of, evaluating defensive play because if you're if you're not getting the rebound you're not really ending the defensive possession if the other team can keep it so it's like it with in terms of ikel and what he does defensively i kind of give him a bit more uh a bit more leash on that because he is so good transitionally because he is at least capable of like once they do get the puck getting it out of his own zone effectively so that kind of you know you can't really um separate those two things sometimes they go hand in hand so um let's get

Let's move on. I was going to say, let's get into the top 10, but we're already there. Because I had Tavares at 9, so I only have eight guys left, and we haven't mentioned any of them yet. So I'm assuming they're the same guys for you. But where are we at on your list after? We're also at 8 because I had guests left at 9. Okay. Okay.

So, I mean, the top 8 for me is McKinnon, Barcov, Bergeron, Kopitar, Matthews, Malkin, Krosby, and McDavid. And I assume, unbarring some crazy oversight, that that's, in some order, the same eight guys for you? Yeah, I had McKinnon, Kopitar, Bergeron, Barkov, Matthews, Malcolm, Crosby, McDavid. Hmm. Okay, so we're pretty much identical, yeah. Yeah. It's funny because we're at like the 70 minute mark or so on this podcast, and we're like getting into the top eight here.

But I feel like we could just like, we could just wrap it up right now. Like the guys we've talked to up until now are more interesting just because, you know, there's more debate there and there's more kind of interesting. anecdotes we can give to them with a lot of these guys it's like especially with crosbie and Malkin at two or three I guess like the argument you could have is which one should be two and which one should be three but otherwise it's like yeah Sydney Crosby is great and he's the second best or third best center in the league it's like okay everyone knows that there's nothing like what else are we going to add to that I guess with McKinnon just based on the fact that last year was such a far departure

offensively from what he'd done in the previous years and most of that was the fact that he started shooting a slightly above league average at 13 something percent and it's only a couple games so far but he's exactly at that mark again this year and i guess that's going to be the thing to watch and i i made this point before last season and where i kind of not i wasn't definitely on an island like a lot of people did based on the talent but he was a kind of prime breakout candidate just because it was like and you watch this guy play there's no reason to believe that he should be such a subpar finisher he seems to have a perfectly fine shot and he gets into great scoring regions in the ice and it'll eventually come together for him and it finally did last

year and I guess the one thing to watch this year will just be whether that can continue for him or whether he'll kind of regress back to something more so in the middle of where he was at in 2017-18 and where he was at before that. Yeah, I fully expect him to maybe not be quite as dominant offensively this year just because last year was so crazy. Like I expect him to be up in the same range but in like in my offensive breakdown just looking at last season he actually had a higher offensive impact than mac david did which is probably not going to happen again like macdavid has been consistent across three years like there's almost no variability variability in what he's produced he's gotten a little bit better each year but like with razor thin margins he's

just who he is and McKinnon bounced up like 40% last year. So I would assume that there's going to be some drop. Part of that might be that Miko Ranton doesn't have as good of a year. But man, McKinnon, he's so dynamic. He's one of those guys that he was built to be on top 10 highlight reels, you know, at the end of the night, or like T.S. N's old honorable or on candidates or whatever they called them. You know, like I feel like when I was growing up and every morning, I would turn on the sports station and watch the highlights from the previous night. That's what Nathan McKinnon was born for. He's, yeah, I mean, he's just below McDavid for me in terms of watchability.

Like, I think he's the number two guy for me of, like, if I, my pick of anyone to watch a game of, it's him. Just the, yeah, it's, it's on a parallel. Like, I think McDavid is a faster skater or, like, or more explosive. with McKinnon though like the power that he skates with and sort of the ability to go from standstill to his top gear is so freakishly fast and when he gets going with a full head of steam he's just this like unstoppable freight train and yeah no it's it's it's a remarkable sight to see and it feels like last year it might be a bit convenient just because it worked out during percentage

wise but it did feel like he sort of figured out how to pick his spots a bit more in terms of like not over skating. Like sometimes he's just so dominant with his stride that he can kind of push himself out of great scoring positions just because he like doesn't stop at the right time. And last year he was kind of picking his spots a bit more and mixing in some change of pace and everything came together for him. And I'm very curious to see whether he can repeat that this season and once again be right up there in scoring and in the MEP race.

Yeah, I feel like maybe it's just because of the jersey that he wears. But McKinion a little bit when like last year, year when he was at the top of his game, he reminded me a little bit of Peter Forsberg. Just that, like, incredible power with skating. And, like, he doesn't always have to be at top speed to beat you. That's, uh, that's who I was getting flashbacks off. Although he, he's a better score than, uh, Peter Forsberg ever was. Maybe not quite the playmaker, though.

Yeah. I think that's, uh, that's fair to say. Yeah. And very few people were the playmaker that Peter Forsberg was. Um, yeah, so I have, and then embark of Berger and Kopitar, I kind of like, mush them together in this list as like the you know the elite defensive guys yeah that are also great offensively and um i don't know like how much more there is that on those guys it was great to see barkov kind of put it all together last year stayed healthy was doing everything for that panthers team

um you know bergeron it looks like uh back to his old tricks this year had a hatrick yesterday that top line with him marcia and and pasturnak is as good as it gets in the league and i'm expecting a great season from him and copatar um he looks awesome so far i mean him and covalchuk are like a great reason to watch the kings and maybe the only reason at this point and uh he's similarly kind of in that tier with those three guys is i don't think they can necessarily crack like that top three guys but if you wanted to have him four five six or whatever in some order like i'm perfectly cool with that yeah i feel like that's fair and you know i think burseron impresses me and his ability to kind of reinvent himself.

Like earlier in his career, he was a bit more of a playmaker, and now he's one of the league's top high-danger scoring chance producers. He just loves to hang out by the net. And especially on the power play, he's just like a net front guy who jams pucks in at an absurdly high rate. And you're like, is Patrice Bergeron or JVR? But then he goes and finds a way to be the first person on the back check. Like he's something else.

I think there was a bit of defensive decline last year. with Bergeron in terms of like cutting down scoring chances, but he then ratcheted up his ability to cut down offensive zone passes. And teams just couldn't move the puck against the Bruins last year when he was on the ice. So it's like, sure, teams are getting some shots, but Rass doesn't have to move. And I don't know, he just finds a way to be the best defensive player in the league every year. And, you know, Kobatar, not as great without. the puck as Bergeron is, but he is the single best overall transition player, partially because

his ability to pass is just unparalleled. For the last three straight years, he's been the player with the highest pass success rate, highest pass success rate relative to their team, and he does it in all three zones. For some reason, Drew Dowdy does the exact same thing on defense. That's just like the key to the Los Angeles Kings. Like, these two guys never turn over the puck and everybody else kind of is there. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great way to sign up some of the kings. So I had Austin Matthews at four on my list.

Yep, same. Yeah, I had them at five by the numbers, but I bumped up over Barkov just because I expect, you know, the next step to be taken by Austin Matthews any second now. And part of that next step is just, you know, Babcock needs to play him more. Yeah. And, man, that first game of the season, like you almost forget about Austin Matthews shot over the summer.

and then you see it once and you're like, oh, right, he has like probably the best shot, well, maybe outside of Patrick Gleine, in the last, like, 10 years that I've seen. Like, the first goal that he scored against the Canadians, his first goal of the year was just absurd, that pullback and the power and accuracy that he gets. Like, it's not just one of the two, right? Like, there are plenty of guys who can shoot the puck as hard and as quick as Austin Matthews, but I don't know if there's anybody else who can shoot it as hard, as quick, as accurate as him. Like, he's able to pick spots when he has no time and he has to alter where he's shooting from.

You know, like shooting off his wrong foot or shooting behind his own feet or, you know, like he can't get any whip in his stick because he's shooting from in front of himself and somehow it's still a laser. It's just a game-altering shot. Yeah, he's right up there, Philip O. Forzberg as the two guys who have the most kind of, unique and lethal release where like obviously the accuracy and the velocity of it is one thing but sort of like the unpredictable nature of where it's coming from and at what point they're actually

going to release it is uh is so unpredictable that i imagine both for defenders trying to block the shot and for goalies trying to time it and get into a good position to make the save is must be just such a nightmare to deal with and i mean he's led the league in his in his two seasons um in five-on-five goals his 55, McDavid's the only one over 50 with his 51. And, you know, if you even pro-rate that on a per hour basis, it's even more impressive how far ahead he is of everyone else in the league, basically. So, yeah, now that he's playing on the top of our play unit and potentially being used more, I expect, like, he seems like a very trendy

candidate to win the Rocket Richard. And I'm at, obviously, based on his first couple games, that seems like a very realistic possibility. I'm still at the point where it's like, I want to see someone, I want to see some signs of slippage from Ovechkin or someone's going to have to take it from him before I feel comfortable saying he's not going to win it. But if anyone is going to take it from him, it's like Matthews and Line A right up there is two, three in some order. Yeah, although I think you made a mistake there. I think you meant Filipovic-Forsburg.

Oh, yeah, no, I think I actually said Philipovich-Fors. Oh, did you say Philadelphia? Yes, yeah, of course. I just wanted to make sure that we got that in there. Yeah. But yeah, that's, yeah, I expect either Linae or Matthews to be the guy. every year after Ovechkin, you know, finally gets that scoring title wrestled from him. And I hope that, like you said, it is taken and not him fading because wouldn't it be great

to see like a three-way scoring race where like to the last game of the season, you don't know which one of the three is going to win. And you see maybe we'll have like one of those patented Ovechkin games where, you know, he needs three more goals to win a scoring title. And he's like, well, I'll score four. Yeah. You know, like, I feel like until someone does rest it away from him, it's not going, like, we can't award someone as like, ah, there are the generations top scorer now. I want to see something dramatic out of those three players.

And, you know, we'll talk about line A when we get to the wingers. But his start to the season as well, the extreme uptick in shots is very interesting to me. Yeah, the optic in shots and the uptick in usage, right? Yes. I mean, more so with line A than Matthews, but like if you just look at the raw volume of how many minutes they're playing, if that goes up as they, you know,

progress in their careers and kind of hit their full physical prime, that could lead to some really, really, really interesting goal totals. But yeah, I mean, it looks like it's going to be a heck of a race because Ovechkin's kind of, you know, any concerns that potentially he could have had a bit of a hectic summer and maybe come into the season in not his ideal shape. Looks like those concerns have been put to rest with his first couple games. So he's going to be right up there again with like 45 to 50 goals.

And it's going to be a fun race. Yeah, so Mark and Crosby 3-2 in some order. Both guys, I know, the resume speak for themselves. McDavid was a very clear number one this year. I feel like for the past couple years, you could have made a case for Crosby at number one if you were just kind of going with the track record and sort of the intangibles. but at this point, McDavid's sheer output and talent is just so unrivaled.

I mean, in the past two seasons, this stat flew my mind. He has 134-5-15 points. Kuturav is second, and he's the only guy with over 100, and he has 101. So, like, that's just insane, right? And then in terms of primary 5-15 points, McDavid is 101, and Kuturov second was 76. Like, it's just, it's right now the NHL in terms of offensive production is, McDavid and then everyone else. And, you know, it's disappointing.

I know Oilers fans always like, oh, you're so hard on the Oilers making so many jokes about them and Shirelli. And it's not like, because I hate the Oilers by any means. It's disappointing because this team should be a cup contender just based on how good McDavid is if they could have surrounded them with any competence. And you watched that first game of the year against the Devils. And whenever McDavid wasn't in the ice, it was like, this team had zero chance of generating any chances, let alone scoring.

And it looks like this year is not going to be much of a departure from last year. And that's just super disappointing. This should be a much better team. And I will say, I think the fascinating, the only fascinating question for McDavid is, like, what is the ceiling offensively this year? Because if they do have some positive power play regression, I feel like 125 points or so is in play, which in today's NHL is just absolutely mine. blowing that that's even a thing you could realistically consider yeah i think that's the the most fun

thing that's going to happen around the oilers this year which is kind of depressing for their fans but at the same time you get to watch you know generational hockey player every night so whatever but uh yeah the power play thing if i mean he said he was going to shoot more on the power play right so like that's been a problem for his power play style as well so far in the nchl he just kind of hadn't figured out what spot he was supposed to play. He was trying to set up a bunch of other players and like, I don't know, man. I love Connor McDavid's passing ability, but when he's passing to Markle's Hess too, I'm kind of thinking, don't.

Yeah. You know, as much as he had like a good run of shooting, let McDavid shoot that puck a little bit more or get somebody who can fire off a higher quality shot. Yeah, 120 points is definitely within his purview. I think eventually, no matter what happens. in Edmonton, he is going to drag that team kicking and screaming to a Stanley Cup because he's just that good. But if he doesn't, I feel like everyone in Oilers management should be a gigantic pariah

around hockey for the rest of their lives. Like, it's that big of a shame to waste this guy. I feel like the Penguins went from being utterly terrible to being a Stanley Cup contender within what two years of Sidney Crosby making the NHHL. And yes, they added of Guinea-Malkin, but beyond dry saddle is great too. And it's not like the Oilers didn't have the pieces to build around McDavid.

And for cheaper than what they are currently paying their team, it's just so many mistakes. Like, I'm sorry to Oilers fans who think that the Pidiocast makes fun of their team too much. But this is, even as somebody who doesn't care about the Oilers at all, it makes me angry. Yeah. Because they should be great.

It is. It is an embarrassment to the game to quote, Claude Julian. Yes. Oh, if only some hockey men would stand up for the code here and stand up for the NHL. All right. Andrew, we did it. We did the centers.

I mean, I think when we get into defensemen, we'll be echoing these sentiments about how loaded the position is and how many names are for consideration. But, you know, when you compare the list of the guys we were talking about now to when we get into the wingers, I guess we're going to smash left and right wingers together, so it'll make doing a list of those guys easier. But, yeah, this position is freakishly loaded, and it was fun to get into it.

We will, at some point in the next couple weeks, do the wingers and do the defensemen, so people can look forward to those shows. In the meantime, plug some stuff. What are you working on these days? Yeah, so we just finished up that project. The goalies should be publishing around the same time as the podcast comes out, so head over to SportsNet and check out the top 20 goalies,

and yell at me over Kerry Price not being number one. Big spoiler for Canadians fans. And also I've got an AMA on our hockey coming up on Wednesday. So check that out. Dimitri also did one recently. So go search. So it was a good time, yeah. Search for that one too.

He had some good answers in there. I enjoyed reading through. Awesome, man. I'm looking forward to checking yours out as well. Thanks for coming on the show. And I'm sure we'll chat very, very soon here. Absolutely. Cheers.

One last thing before we get out of here. Last week on the show, I mentioned that this season we're going to be doing weekly fan dual contests with the PDOCATs, kind of like a listener league. And we started that off last week. We did a Wednesday contest for the season opening day. And it was a lot of fun. There was only a couple games on. So there wasn't that much to choose from. But we filled out the 20 team league.

And it was a good time. I predictably did really badly. I finished in the bottom half because I apparently have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to this stuff. But that's all part of the fun and I love playing with you guys. So to remind everyone, if you want to get in on the action, this week we're going to be doing it for the Thursdays slate. I think there's 10 games on and it's the busiest day of the week. So it should provide a lot of opportunity to get creative and pick some different player combinations. For those you that are played, I will be tweeting out the link contest.

at some point leading up to Thursday, so you'll be able to just kind of hop in there and grab one of the spots that's available. For those of you that haven't, just go to fandal.com slash pdo and sign up. And I believe when you sign up and you make your first deposit, they're going to give you a $20 bonus on top of that for you to play with and experiment and have some fun. So I highly recommend it. It's a good time. We're going to keep doing it all season and you're going to hear me keep talking about it. So hopefully we see some fresh faces in there. and you get to, you know, you get to play me. It's only a couple bucks, but you get to play me for bragging rights and be one of the people that can say that you handily dusted the floor with me in Daily Fantasy.

So I look forward to seeing you all there. And with that, let's let's hear the outro music and get out of here. Expect another, at least episode later on this week. Maybe two. We'll see how it goes. Until then. The Hockey PEDEOCast, Petrie Philipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovic and on SoundCloud at

soundcloud.com slash hockey p-docast.