The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 257: Winging It

Episode Date: October 16, 2018

Andrew Berkshire joins the show to help rank the best wingers in the game. In this episode we discuss the laundry list of honourable mentions who just missed the cut (1:00), the players just ranked 16 through 20 (20:00), 11 through 15 (59:00), 6 through 10 (1:13:30), and the top 5 (1:19:00). Sponsoring today’s show is SeatGeek, which is making it easier than ever before to buy and sell sports and concert tickets. They’re giving our listeners a $20 rebate off of their first purchase. All you have to do is download the free SeatGeek app and enter the promo code PDO to get started. A reminder that we’re hosting a daily fantasy listener league contest over at FanDuel every Thursday this season. While you wait for the next opportunity to play to come around, go over to fanduel.com/PDO and tell them we’ve sent you. They’ll hook you up with a bonus $20 to play with after your first deposit, which will surely come in handy throughout the year. See you there! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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My name is Dimitri Philpovich. and join me for part two of our mega positional ranking series that we seem to do every year is my good buddy Andrew Berkshire. Andrew, what's going on, man? Not much, just, you know, chilling out in the morning. Excited to get on the PDO cast once again. I broke down my two separate winger categories and mashed them together and move some guys around based on my feelings. And here we are.

Based on your feelings. That's a new stat. Yeah, it's the best stat. Mm-hmm. Yes. It's, um, this is going to be a tricky podcast. You know, we did, for those you that haven't checked it out yet last week, Andrew and I did the top 20 centers. And we were talking before we went on air, we got pretty good feedback on that. I went back. I reviewed the tape. I, um, reviewed our performance. I think we did pretty well. One, if I, like, had to, if I could redo my list, then I wouldn't even necessarily redo it because obviously just a couple games worth

shouldn't change your opinion on stuff like this. But I think maybe we were underselling, uh, again, he could set off a little bit, although I feel like, you know, we had him at the borderline of the top 10, and we both sort of made the note that with a bigger role and the penalty killing duties and all that and so on and so forth, and seemingly how he gets better every single year, he had a case to, you know, sneak up really into that kind of top five to seven or so range with a big season this year. So, you know, we weren't down on him by any means, but just kind of watching him this past week and how uniquely dominant he can be at times with the puck.

They were playing the Leafs on Saturday, and it felt like he was definitively the best player on Nice in a game that featured quite a few good players. So that was kind of one thing that I wanted to make a note of. But otherwise, I'm pretty happy with how our Center's podcast went. Yeah, I feel like maybe we should have put Matthews number one. Just to align with the media narrative right now. Yeah, I'm glad.

You know what? And we also didn't get into McDavid or Matthews, which I'm really proud of us of, and we're not going to do that on this show either. We do have a massive show ahead. And you know what? I think next week we're going to do defensemen and I'm going to do goalies as well. I'm going to try to get someone who full-time covers goalies to do that with me,

but you and I will do the defensemen. So there's a lot to look forward to. But on this show, we're going to do the wingers. And it is tricky. I honestly don't even have, I don't have a top 20. I have like 30 names written down in some order. And I'm going to talk my way through it and try to weed some of them out. then other guys kind of figure out where they align because it's it's it's just so tricky right when

you're smashing both left and right into here there's such a a glut of names and so many quality players and it just it felt like it was kind of very subjective on my part trying to figure out whether i liked one guy over another at some point especially in that in that bottom third or so yeah i feel like even from like almost like number eight down to like 25. There isn't a ton of separation, right? Or maybe nine or ten actually. But there's a huge, huge group among wingers that are just like really difficult to pick between.

That's where I had the most trouble creating this list. And also I feel like after number one, it was also like pretty tight within the top eight or nine as well. Like it's really tough to, like I feel like for. people listening who have, you know, team affiliations or or guys they really like, try not to focus too much on the number on this episode because I don't think we're too focused on, I know it's a ranking episode, but if one guy's ahead of the guy that you like, realize that there's not much separation and, you know, based on whatever happens in a couple of games, they could move up or down the list a couple spots. So I just thought that the top 10 is so stacked for

wingers, it's pretty tough. There's not much separation. It is. You're right. That's a key point. I think it's more so the actual conversations we're going to have about these guys and also sort of the neighborhood or the tier that we're putting them into as opposed to actually the specific number.

And I think there's like, I don't know, I'd say probably like 15 or 16 guys that really should be in our top 20 here. And then I'd say that there's like another 15 to 20 guys. guys, as you kind of alluded to there, that you can make a case for it for the final five spots. So it's, that's why we're going to do like a long honorable mentions and then we're going to get into the actual top 20, but you're right. Hopefully, uh, hopefully fans don't get too upset if their favorite player doesn't make the top 20 because if he's in our honorable mentions, chances are he's probably a top 20 caliber of Wingerer, we just couldn't squeeze him in. Um, so give me,

let's run through some of those guys who ultimately, um, you feel like didn't make the list, but are right there on the precipice and probably could if you just kind of close your eyes and pick their name out of the hat instead. Yeah, I had, I had a few guys that really hurt to not put on my top 20. And, you know, I could be convinced any other day that they could be in there. But the four main guys for me that really I wanted to put in there, but I just couldn't find a spot ahead of the others was Ricard Raquel, Nikolai Elers, Alex Radulov, and Chris Kreider. So out of those guys, I agree. Alex Radulov did make my list, but he was in that, like, I have him 17th on mine.

So he's, like, firmly in that tier of, like, if you want to bump him down to, like, 28th. Just because I'd be like, okay, yeah, I guess I'm not going to quibble with it too much. But, yeah, all the other guys are on my list. I did notice when I was looking at yours because, you know, I'm kind of just spitballing here and freewheeling on the fly. You actually publish the list all over at Sports Center, and people should go read the the written work, but you're really high on Chris Kreider on your wrist. Yeah. And I mean, I don't want to necessarily say that my opinion of Chris Kreider is, you know, like I'm not personally super high on him. I still harbor some resentment from being a Canadian fan back in the

day and him, you know, taking out Kerry Price and causing many years of problems there. But in terms of just the progression he's made as a player with and without the puck. He's just a three-zone player, incredibly versatile winger right now. He doesn't have the offensive punch of some of the other guys on this list, but he's got incredible impacts, both in transition and on defense. So he's a guy that I couldn't find a space in the top 20, but he's good enough everywhere that I couldn't not mention him at the same time. yeah that's fair and i feel like a guy like uh for me like that that you did you did mention on that arbal mentions

is nick healers um it's so tricky because in the like when i think about him just as the player and sort of how what he brings to the table it's i think if i had to like create my perfect player it would be a lot of what he does where he's just he's so dynamic on the fly um you know he's a zone entry king he draws a ton of penalties. He's just this kind of like elusive guy in the offensive zone that no one can seem to get a get a good grasp on defensively. And at the same time, some of the other names on this list were just their offensive resumes and what they've been able to accomplish at this point of their careers kind of supersedes him.

But he's obviously young enough and still, his trajectory is still going upward. So he could very easily crack this list. but like you get into a philosophical debate and I know you wrote this in your methodology where typically in your rankings I believe goal scores kind of get favored a bit more than than playmakers and that's a really tough thing to sort of weigh and balance in your mind because you know when I was creating this list I was going back and forth between teammates like Nick Eler's and Patrick Lainey and trying to figure out

you know how to value those two guys and what they what they bring to the table and which one's more valuable and ultimately I settled with line A just because I feel like, I don't know, philosophically, if you had to pick one of them, I feel like everyone would pick Patrick Linae, but then that kind of feels unfair to what Nick Euler is capable of and what he brings to the table. Yeah, and I think you look at where the Jets are right now and the way they've started the season and everyone's kind of down on the Nick Eilers line. I think for the most part, you know, a five-game sample is not enough to draw any conclusion. and yeah, he doesn't have any points. But I recently took a look at Brandon Tanna for the Winnipeg Free Press and what is driving his good start to the season. And one thing that stood out when I was looking at the Jets was Nikolai Eilers is like, if not the best,

a top five zone entry player in the entire NHL and not just in terms of gaining the line, but what happens after he enters the zone, whether it's by a controlled entry, which he's among the best at or even a dump-in, it's incredible. No one in the league turns those entries into scoring chances as frequently as Nick Elers does. So that tells me something about his ability to not just enter the offensive zone, but create something dynamic that happens, attacking off the rush. And he's a special player.

I think Christian Veselainen has struggled a little bit to start the season. and, you know, Roslovich is an up-and-coming player who hasn't found, you know, his peak at all yet. He's just a kid, but Nikolai Eilers look past the point totals this season and look at the last two seasons and remember who he is because he is an absolutely incredible player. And for the Jets to be able to put him on the third line right now and actually, you know, not have any weaknesses in their top six is just ridiculous. it's what a embarrassment of riches they have at forward right now. Yeah, I mean, when we did our centers podcast, you know, we had Mark Sheifley in our top 10 or just on the precipice of it, I believe. And then on this episode, whether it's with Wheeler or Line A or Eilers or even Kyle Conner

on the fringe, like you can make a case for four wingers on their team on this list. It's bonkers. And then you get into their blue line and obviously they have a top goalie now as well. So you're right. It is an embarrassment of riches. And I'm glad you brought up. The zone entry component and sort of what he does when he enters the zone with it, because I thought last year in the latter half when they acquired Paul Stasney, the traded line, that combination

with Stasney Eilers and Line A was amongst my favorite lines in the league to watch just because all the three skill sets complemented each other so well. And I thought that while he wouldn't get much of the attention or much of the love for what he was contributing to it, Nikola Eiler's ability to enter the zone with possession and speed and sort of push, back the defense a little bit, created so much more space for Stasney and Lineate operate with. And that's kind of one of those things where, you know, it's kind of tricky to say that it won't get captured by the numbers because in theory, if it's important and valuable to winning, it will manifest itself somewhere. You just kind of have to look for it

and try to evaluate it and weigh things properly with the numbers. But at the same time, it's just one of those kind of geometrical, structural things on the ice that I'm sure, like, his teammates appreciate playing with the numbers. them so much because of what he is able to provide with that speed. Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. He's a phenomenal player. I guess also maybe some of the reasons why I've seen a few people to be down on him

was he wasn't at his peak in the playoffs either. But, you know, it was his first playoffs. He still was scoring a half point in game. He didn't score a goal, but he was, you know, getting some assists. So he's a guy that Jets fans, if you're nervous about him, don't be. Yeah. He's going to do his same thing he does every year. He's going to be great.

An Amy didn't mention that honorable mentions that it's on mine, is a Matthew Kachuk. Yes. He is just outside my top 30. Yeah. Just, just. It's tricky because, you know, he's obviously, and with good reason, already established, this rep as being sort of the biggest pest in the league and affectionately been garnered with a nickname Matthew Mayhem Kachuk. and it's just because when he's out there, it seems like either him or someone else is taking a penalty.

And, you know, if he could tone that down and keep himself out of the penalty box a little bit while also not losing that edge, which I understand it's easier said than done because that's kind of part of his game. He'd be even more valuable, but his playmaking is not something that typically gets talked enough about just because that other stuff gets most of attention. But he's so good. and him and Michael Backland work perfectly off of each other. And I think the world of him as a player. So he was on my honorable mentions, you know, a guy like Michael Cranland, I'm really high on,

but he unfortunately just also didn't make the cut. So there's so many guys on this list, I feel like we could go, we could do a full honorable mentions podcast before we actually even get to the top 20, which is ridiculous. Yeah, we really could. And I feel like that's one of the things that when you really get into, you know, the data-driven analysis and stuff,

you gain more appreciation for more different play styles. and there's more players that really stick out to you and you try to figure out why they're special and what drives them. It's super interesting. I think with Kachuk, one of the other things that's really underrated about him is he's a great playmaker,

but he's also a deadly shooter on the power play. Like he's just excellent at picking up little plays and getting quick shots off in tight areas. He can roof it on you real quick. I'm really impressed with the way he's evolved as a player and not just his ability to draw calls. I think he led all wingers last year in drawn calls. But just his scoring ability,

I think because he's a pest, that scoring ability makes him more effective. It's a lot like the Brad Marshawn thing, right? So if Brad Marshawn was, you know, Patrick Colettis level talent, we would know his name, but he would be an afterthought. You know, people wouldn't really care about him. Right. But it's that fact that not only is he diving to draw a call on you

after he slew-footed you, he's going to score on the power play. And that just makes you more and more angry. And then you're going to react again and get in trouble. And, you know, Chuck's had another great start to the year. So, like, he's not, you know, doing anything but getting better. He's an incredible player. Yeah. Really fun to watch, even though, you know, I wouldn't say I love the dirty hockey,

but at the same time, I find his particular brand, like, oddly funny. because he just seems to like his complete lack of respect for star players like he always goes after the stars yeah it is just super interesting to me like his battles with dowdy are already legendary and it's the third year in the nchal yeah and i feel like you know there's i'm sure there's gonna be examples and people who get like oh no you're actually wrong but i i feel like generally of all those guys that do play that type of way like his for whatever reason just doesn't kind of strike me as malicious or i don't know i feel like he kind of does a a solid job of towing that line where it just feels like it is kind of

it's part of the gamesmanship and he has the skill to back it up so he can get away with it and yeah, good on him. Another name I did want to throw in here because I had him initially in my top 20 and I bumped him down a little bit, but Jonathan Marcioso.

Obviously, I'm sure with your list, just the fact that, you know, he had that one really good season in Florida and on a permanent basis. He was very solid and a limited role with Tampa Bay, the year before but I know that when we were talking about your methodology you do sort of a three-year over-year right so even though you're weighing them more towards recency the fact that he's had only one kind of monster offensive season so far probably bumped him down your overall rankings yeah actually

his his season in florida wasn't too much worse by the rankings than the one in vegas i thought like he's had two really top-end seasons it's the season in tampa bay he was like you know a middle six winger who had some good scoring ability. He's had some big jumps in his transition game the last couple years. He's still not, you know, great at it. He's not a great puck carrier. He can be a little bit turnover happy in the neutral zone. But every stat that you look at or every combined stat that I've created,

there's like a linear progression over the last three years. He's gotten slightly better offensively each year. there was a big jump going to Florida and then a slighter jump last year that just produced more points with better linemates. And then last year as well, he bumped up his transition game and his defensive game has gotten a lot better. So he's a player who's on the rise for me. I just couldn't put him over some of the more established or higher-end talents. Yep. No, I think that's fair.

Okay, let's take a quick break here actually to hear from a sponsor and then we're going to get it finally, mercifully, into our top 20. on the other and things. Getting tickets online can be far too complicated. With hundreds of sites and varying levels of reliability, it's hard to know who to trust out there. That's why Seekkeeks the way to go, because they're going to pull millions of tickets into one place so you can easily find the seats you want for a price you're willing to pay.

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whether it's NBA season starting, hockey being in full flight, MLB postseason, NFL's going on. I mean, there's just so much to choose from. So this is a great time to get in on an action if you haven't already. I actually have Seekycom on my phone and I just used it the other day to land some tickets to go watch. watch the Bruins when they visit Vancouver to play the Canucks next weekend. Now, when I bought the tickets, I thought Alas Pedersen was going to play, and I was looking forward to seeing him up close and personal and getting a better feel for the magic he's creating out there.

And unfortunately, since then, you know, Michael Matheson decided to be a big baby and choke slam him through the ice. And unfortunately, Alas Pedersen is going to be out and probably miss that game. So hopefully, for both his and the Canucks long-term perspective, he has a full. and speedy recovery. But in the meantime, I'm going to try to find some other ways to entertain myself there. I'm looking forward to seeing that Bruin's first line in action with Pastor Neck, Marsha, and Bergeron. It's as good as it gets. So it's not all bad. But you yourself can choose any event you want to go to using Seekek and go there yourself. And as my listener, you're going to

get $20 off your first purchase with Seekek. All you have to do is download the Seekek app and enter the promo code PDO today. That's promo code PDO for $20 off your first CCEC. And as a Ziki's purchase. Now let's get back to the show. Okay. Let's do this. Give me your number 20 and I guess, you know, we can just go from there because I don't definitively have anyone in my $1.20 slot right now. I want to do your argument. Okay. All right. Sounds good. So my number 20 is Brendan Gallagher. And the reason why he beat out Raquel for this spot is Raquel ranked really, really higher. I actually like, the way I do the rankings, right? It's everything's by position. And so left and right wing is actually

separated. I don't know if I'm going to do that next year, if I'm going to combine them, because it doesn't make a lot of sense necessarily to split them up. But when you're compared against your peers, you know, your rankings can change whether or not you're on the left or the right. And because Raquel can play both sides, I actually ranked him on both sides. So he ranked really high among left wings, but among right wings, he was actually below Gallagher. So I had Gallagher slightly higher than him. Just a relentless, unbelievable four-checker, amazing high-danger scoring chance producer,

amazing possession driver. Gallagher's defensive game has grown a lot. And now that Claude Julian has asked him to diversify his game a little bit, you'll notice that he carries the puck a lot more in the neutral zone, creates a lot more entries. You know, his transition game has taken a huge step. He's better defensively. And also he's kind of strafed back a little bit.

He's not necessarily always at the next. And that front, he is at times because he's really good at it. But he likes to sit in that like sniper's position in the high slot. And we saw that last year translate into his first 30-goal season. And already this year, like you look at him and he looks like the same player as last year. So I think Brennan Gallagher could even move up this list. He's, he kind of reminds me of what Claude Julianne did with Brad Marshawn, not to continually bring up Brad Marshawn, but he's a fantastic player who was coached by the same guy,

where Marshaun always had the talent, Gallagher always had the talent. but, you know, it took a little while for them to really ascend to their peak. Marchand, you know, obviously has hit his peak much later in his career than most players and doesn't seem to be fading anytime soon. And I could see that same trajectory for Brennan Gallagher. So I want to circle back to you. So you were saying how for Raquel, his number, how he stacked up against his peers on one wing was significantly better than the other.

Is that purely because of a discrepancy in, quality on the two wings in terms of the peers themselves or was that a reference to Raquel's actual individual play depending on where he's playing? Well, I mean, the weighting isn't any different for one wing or the other in terms of like what stats are being used. I think the problem was that the right winger's are good at the same things Raquel is. So the things that he stands out in, he didn't get as high a scores as on the left. So like I'm not like looking at the data right now, but let's just say, for example, that left-wingers are much better at transitioning the puck than right-wingers just by some random happenstance, or maybe that's the way that the NHL works is they move the puck up the left wall more often.

And right-wingers create more offense. Well, if Raquel is really good offensively but not really good at transitioning the puck, then putting him on the left wing, he might have a slightly higher transition. score, but his offense takes a hit. So it's kind of a random thing, but I felt like if he was below a bunch of players on the right wing who are similar in terms of impact, that kind of knocked him slightly down for me. But I still think he's a phenomenal player who, you know, especially with all the injuries in Anaheim last year, was almost as responsible as John Gibson for them making the playoffs. And he's also one of those guys who has kind of weirdly, you know, I typically push back against the idea that prospects and young players get better in a linear stepwise fashion

moving forward like every year, which people expect, but he is one of those guys that every year you can sort of noticeably see that both in his production and his actual, uh, just play on the ice that every year he gets a little bit better, which is unique and awesome kind of to see from him. Yeah, it's basically like he improves by around 10 points every year. Yeah. It's really funny. I like it. I like it too. Um, did you have Miko Renton in your top 20? I just want to know if we should talk about him right now is kind of more of an honorable mention or if he is under the list. I did not have him in there. His defensive game held him off.

Yeah. Yeah. And also, I guess, the fact that he does get to play with Nathan McKinnon, who we're super high on him. I mean, I gave you, Landiscag, it's a pretty cushy spot for him. I do like him quite a bit. And I guess maybe in this latter half of my top 20 with guys like Radjolov and Warwick making the list, maybe I do favor the playmakers a little bit more.

But I do really wanted to give him a little credit because people, I I feel like generally kind of knock him down a peg or two just because he does get to play with those great players. And I think he's kind of riding shotgun and just being a pedestrian. But if you kind of look at it a bit closer and just watch how he's playing out there, his playmaking ability is very, very legit. And I like him quite a bit as a player as well. Yeah, I feel like in today's NHL, there aren't very many guys who can, you know, put up 84 points and be like complete passengers, right? Like you've got to have some base level of high-end,

talent to be able to do that even with a guy like Nathan McKinnon. I mean, you saw like, I think Nico Heeshire is a fantastic player. And I know he was just a kid last year, but he wasn't able to do that with Taylor Hall. And Hall had a somewhat similar season to Nathan McKinnon in terms of point production. So like, it's difficult to put up those kinds of numbers. And that's why as much as, you know, Ranton and shot 16% last year, which is actually not that far from his career average so far. But, you know, Bill Carlson, right? He's shot an insane level last year. But the fact that he was able to do that at all obviously adjusts our view of him to the point where we don't expect him to regress down to his previous shooting percentage. We expect maybe like, you know, two-thirds

to a half of what he was able to do last year. And now we think of him as, oh, this guy's an offensive player. He can chip in, you know, maybe he won't score 80 points, but he'll score 50 this year, you know, or maybe he'll hit 60, no longer expecting him to be at the 20 level or something like that. So I think you definitely can't be a pure passenger in the NHL anymore unless you're maybe on like McDavid's line or, you know, Crosby and his prime, that kind of thing. Those kinds of players can turn passengers into top end guys. But not to disrespect McKinnon, I think he's just like one slight notch below those guys. That's fair. Okay, let's keep going with your list on. Who do you have after a Gallagher?

I have falling down the list quite a bit actually is Max Patch Ready. Yeah, his two-way play is still fantastic, but, you know, there's no two ways about it. He had a bad year last year, and, you know, we could chalk it up to the trade rumors and how he was dealing with that mentally, but at the same time, you can't, like, there's always excuses whenever guys have a bad year, whether or not they're legit, doesn't really matter when you're evaluating. talent. So maybe Patcher already can bump itself back up with a great year this year, but he's down there at 19 for me. Yeah, you know, he just missed the cut from my list. Obviously, his resume speaks for itself, and I'm pretty high on him moving forward this season. I feel like he

definitely is in a better spot for a variety of reasons, and he should get back to that 30-plus goal range that he had been living in for a long time. The start of the year for Vegas has been up and down to say the least. You know, it would have pointed to Mark Andre Fleri in his obvious inevitable regression back to where he was at for the majority of his career compared to last season as the big reason why, but their most reason game out against Philly, he was just otherworldly

and basically stole that for them with a shutout. So who knows, maybe he can find a nice little happy medium there and they'll eventually get it together. You and I haven't necessarily talked about it, but how do you feel about them moving forward? this season because it seems like opinions on them wildly vary and I find myself kind of somewhere in the middle where I think that they're going to be competing if not making a playoffs spot in the Pacific. They obviously won't be as great as they were last year. But I also think that

there's enough talent there, especially when Nachemit comes back that I don't expect them to just completely fall off the map either. Yeah, I'm totally with you. I'm more in the middle. I think that there are a team that should be in that maybe wild card or slightly above area. Like, they could miss the playoffs but it wouldn't be because of bad play. I think they've played really well to start the season. They just haven't got any of the breaks that they got last year, right? It's kind of like the complete opposite situation, which I think as this is happening, there's a lot of people who were skeptics last year, like pointing their finger and going

see, see, I told you, but, you know, over a full season, I think they're going to be fine. Maybe they'll have some really bad luck and it'll last and it'll be like a full on like actual regression from last season, but I think they've made some good moves in the offseason. I like the Statsney signing. I like the patch ready move. They paid some hefty prices to bring in those players, but it works. I think that if Mark Hendry Flurry, like you said, can find some balance in his game, even if he's not great, they're definitely going to be okay. He just can't be bad. And he was the first few games, obviously, and kind of put it together against Philly. Yep. No, I agree. Okay. Let's keep going with

the list then. All right. So at 18, I have currently not playing Willie Neelander. I had him a 20 on mine, so let's get into Willie. Yeah, he's, I guess that's, you know, pretty same range. Willie is a really good player, one of the better offensive drivers in the league already. I actually had him above Mitch Marner both of the last seasons in terms of overall impact, but Marner being younger and obviously recency bias has Marner slightly ahead for me now. Mitch Marner has been way better this season.

Yes. Than Willie Nealander, especially. Yeah, he's got way more points than Willie Nealander this season. But yeah, I think Nealander, because of the fact that he's not playing and the Leafs are scoring at will is kind of being underrated right now.

He has some definite trouble in the defensive zone. He can be a bit of a passenger there. But his neutral zone defense is actually fantastic. He's great at picking up pucks off players sticks when they're not expecting it. He's great at, you know, little poke checks that push the puck the other way, great at recovering loose pucks there. And his transition game is otherworldly.

He's one of the best puck carriers in the league. He's just such a smooth skater and so dynamic with the puck. You know, Matthews right now is actually being outscored at even strength, which is crazy. And, you know, nobody really cares because he's scored 10 goals. and the power play is ridiculous. Yeah. But when Nealander comes back, I expect that to stop Pronto

because he's just an otherworldly playmaker who will, you know, keep the puck in the offensive zone a lot more often. Well, that's the thing. And obviously Matthews is a great player and he's going to get his production regardless of who he plays with. But it was kind of funny seeing at the start of the season when the least were trying to make Tyler Ennis work in that spot. And he's found a bit more success with Kaspario Kappan,

just because his speed is helped quite a bit with puck retrievals and doing a little bit of the dirty work. But it's very clear still watching that they miss Neelander's sort of just high-end ability, both with playmaking, but also just with how he can get the Leafs in better positions to score to take advantage of Matthews's lethal shot. So even though the Leafs have been scoring and Matthews is going to score a million goals this season, you're right.

I think it's very important not to lose sight of the fact of what Neelander contributes to that line and Matthews is successive 5-15. Yeah, he's a good player. and literally right above him the next spot, I have Mitch Marner, which I think you could argue moving him up a little bit earlier if you really like the small sample sizes. And you look at his play in the playoffs last year where I thought he was actually Toronto's best player in the playoffs by a fairly significant margin. And part of that's because I think Matthews was still not 100% from his injury at the end of the year. But he's just taken a huge progression in the last half season, a little bit less maybe. he's gone from being really poor defensively to all of a sudden becoming a very aggressive defensive

player who really tries hard and is successful in the defensive zone. He can still make some pretty bad turnovers because he's trying cool things all the time, which I think if you're the Maple Leafs, you're probably okay with. And that chemistry with Tavares, man alive. That line right now is unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah, no, yeah, I agree with all those points with how he stood out in the postseason, how he seems to have taken his game to another level this year.

He's kind of vaulted himself into the conversation of the league's best playmakers. It seems like whenever he's out there on the ice, the puck seems to find him, and he's just so dynamic and dangerous with it. I feel like, I don't know, it's a testament to that ability and sort of how he's grown as a player, that I feel like the leaves are the most dangerous on the powerplay when the puck is flowing through him and he's distributing and making the plays and considering the other guys that are out there, that's very high praise for him and what he's able to do as a passer and a guy who just kind of sees the ice and sees the progressions at a high level.

Yeah, absolutely. And he makes like passes on the power play. And, you know, he's always been great on the power play. His even strength work was, you know, decent, but not in the, same realm as Nealander the last two seasons and that's kind of like rocketed up now that he's with Tavares but on the power play he makes passes that you know if you're watching at full speed may not seem you know the most impressive and then when you go back and look at it you're like how did he even see that guy there and how did he get through those sticks and he just picks spots that

normal guys aren't able to do and yeah what I'm saying is Mitch Marner is a mutant and I do love the fact that it really flies kind of counterintuitive or in the face of conventional thinking where it's like, you know, a smaller guy like that, especially a skilled player can't be good defensively. And then you watch, especially in the neutral zone where his, he uses his speed to be very disruptive. And his stick is so incredible at kind of Mark Stone style, just kind of lifting the puck off of other guys and pickpocketing them. And I, yeah, I think we've seen him get better and better every year. And I feel like the sky's the limit for him.

And I'm sure that people will, we'll kind of keep that in proportion and not completely lose their minds if he keeps playing this well. Yeah, I'm sure that nobody will say that he's, you know, better than Matthews or anything like that. No. I did have him 15 on my list here. So I'm obviously very high on him. I had Nylander at 20. Let's get to your, let's get to the 15 range for you.

So who do you have as the next couple guys? The next guy that I have is our good buddy, Sebastian Aho. the winger version, not the defenseman. So I didn't have him on my list because I viewed him as a center. Yeah, he's playing center now, but he hasn't really played center at all before this year, right? So I figured it would be most fair to include him as a winger because I just don't know who he is as a center.

Yeah, no, that's fair. I think I guess I just view him as a center because he has played that this year. And I think moving forward, I imagine Carolina envisions him as being their top center, but you're right, based on the track record, the past three seasons. So let's get into him and let's get him to Carolina then because I'm fresh off.

We're recording this Monday morning. I think it's going to post on Tuesday. But we're fresh off of that crazy Carolina Winnipeg game on Sunday evening where there were only a couple goals scored. I think the final score was the re-one with the empty netter, but it really could have been like 8-7 if the goaltending wasn't out of their, if Petermazic and Lauren Braswa, of all people weren't out of their minds and there weren't a couple posts hit. Just the frantic speed that both teams were playing with in a controlled sense.

the dynamic players out there and sort of how they were pushing the pace and pushing the limitations of what we think guys can do out there was incredible to watch and Ajo himself has really taken his game to another level this year and Carolina's probably been the best story in the league so far they finally took their first regulation loss there's no shame in that and it's backed back on the road against Winnipeg but they uh under rod brindamore they're playing sort of reminiscent of what Vegas was playing like last year I feel like in terms of just a very aggressive forecheck, really playing as fast as possible out there

and being super aggressive. And we'll see if the goaltending can hold up to make them an actual playoff team this season. But so far, just offensively, it's been a bit of a tour de force showing from the whole team without O'Ho leading the charge. Yeah, Al-O is, would you say that he's Carolina's best forward now? I feel like that's pretty...

Yeah, I mean, I guess the other option would be Jordan Stahl just because of what he does from a two-year-old. way perspective. Right. Like I, and I think Jordan Stahl is great as he is, is maybe like slightly overrated by the analytically inclined people. I think you've got to be a little bit more offensive minded to, you know, be in that like, you know, top 10 center area.

Well, and I think there's also, there's a combination, right? You're right. There's like a sort of temperament or sort of a willingness to play a certain way. And then there's the actual offensive, high-end talent. and it's pretty clear to me that, I mean, the case for Aho is very obvious at this point where it's just he can move the needle offensively for them in a way that very few around the league can. So it's pretty clear that I think he's their most impactful player up front at least. Yeah. And, you know, were you skeptical of Rod Brindamore at all?

Because I know, like, when I saw what Carolina did in the off season, you know, obviously the Dougie Hamilton trade was looked great. I like Michael Furlin. I don't know if I mentioned it last time, but it might have been me talking to somebody else. but whenever a team is bad and they're looking at like, you know, oh, we need more grit, we need to be harder to play against, we need some bigger guys. If your answer to that is to acquire a guy like Michael Furland, I'm all right with that because he can play.

Yeah. You know, like if that's who you're going for and not like, you know, the Mike Browns of the world, I feel like that's some smart decision making. But I thought the Skinner trade was, you know, pretty bad. I was very unsure about Rod Brindamore. You know, like the practices titled like Gritten Grind or whatever. And you were wondering what was going to happen.

And then, you know, you look and Carolina so far is at almost 62% coursey. You know, they had their first regulation loss of the year in game six against a team that is a legitimate Stanley Cup threat. And you set it back to back. Like that's really impressive work. And, you know, with still question marks and goal, you know, as good as it's been earlier this year, like this is a good team and maybe they're finally taking the next step. And I will reserve my right to take it back,

but I bow to Rod Brenda Moore and say I was wrong to be skeptical. Yeah, I think there was a certain stink to their summer, right? Because for the past couple of years, we've all been so high on Carolina and dubbing them a preseason sleeper. And even last year they got off to a nice little start. and then for a variety of reasons, mostly their ability to keep the puck out of their own net, wound up hampering them and costing them a chance at the playoffs.

And then the whole discourse, this towards the end of last season and then heading into the summer with the new ownership and sort of the quotes about grid and grind, like you said, and trying to change their culture or however you want to put it. And I did like their moves. Obviously, the Skinner trade was questionable. and, you know, it was really tough to know what this team would look like and sort of how much there was to what they were actually saying or whether it was just kind of a PR thing, but

they've been a great story so far. The, you know, the celebrations after they win and just kind of how they seem to be having fun out there, it's a blast. And you're right about Furland. I think that's a really good point to make. There's kind of a difference between sort of grid and toughness and functional grid and toughness. And we got into this with when the kings were really good. it and I feel like Winnipeg is a good example now.

I think I saw some of it last postseason where people would have point to the success of Winnipeg and go, see, you do need to be big in today's NHL still to be successful. And like, I don't think anyone is saying that you should just be drafting and playing a bunch of guys who are 5'10. Like, that's not what we're saying. The whole point is that sometimes people forego skill just for size. Obviously, you can find a happy marriage between those two and get a bunch of guys like Blake Wheeler and Dustin Bufflin, who are massive human beings, but also very good at other stuff.

That would be an ideal scenario, but it feels like teams generally overreact and overpay for size. So that's why undersized guys who have skill have been a bit of a market and efficiency in the past. I'm not sure if that's still the case in the NHL with how things have shifted. But if you can find that happy medium there with a guy like Michael Furland, I'm all for it. So I think sometimes that's a bit of a misconception with the whole analytics. verse old school type mentality debate. Yeah, and I feel like the whole like Michael Furlin style player, like that's what I see as, you know, like there's different kinds of hard to play against.

And I usually hate it when NHL people or hockey people say like, oh, such and such is hard to play against. And they're usually talking about like really gritty guys like Roman Polack, hard to play against because you know you're going to get hit. But like, is he actually difficult to score against? Right. That's like the main thing. that I look at.

Like hard to play against and hard to score games are two different things. Now, if you could have both, that's amazing. But, you know, how rare is a Dustin Bufflin? You know, that's the big thing.

Like, if you can find one of those players, pay them whatever. You know, they're fantastic. Yeah. But like you said, it's all about,

like, finding efficiencies and making the best team possible. So if you're going to, if you're looking for Dustin Bufflin and getting Dylan McElrath, you're probably not making the best choice. Jared Tenorty. Yes, exactly.

I remember when Jared Tenorty was drafted, Bruce Peters, who's now working for the Marley's and is a Color Cup champion now, by the way, he wrote a piece on EOTP where every word in a paragraph, but just been a sentence, but it was like a 15 word sentence, was a link to a different player or a different defenseman who was drafted, who was like over six, six, and turned out to be nothing. And it was just from like the last five years.

and they're all like first round guys. And it's just like that search for size, ignoring, you know, what you actually do on the ice or not taking into account enough of it, I guess. That is just a bad idea. But functional grit, man, I'm all for it. Give me the Michael Furlins of the world or, you know, the Kyle Connors who hang out at the net front and take abuse.

Those guys are good. Bruce Peters, listener of the PDO cast. So, Bruce. Yeah, I feel like we started talking about Ajo and then seven minutes of Seven minutes of Michael Furland later, where seven talked to him. And so, you know, acknowledging that, it kind of runs in opposition with what I'm about to say. But I do feel like we, at some point, we're going to reach kind of that weird, annoying middle ground of people saying Sebastian Ajo is the best player no one talks about, even though everyone is talking about him. I feel like generally speaking, maybe it still hasn't, perception hasn't reached reality,

just because Carolina in the grand scheme of things still, despite their hot start and fun personalities obviously isn't getting the same type of coverage and attention as a team like the Leafs, for example. But I feel like if you're a hockey fan at this point, you're probably at least becoming aware of Sabash and Ajo and what he's doing with these highlight reels and high point totals he's reaching. So it might still be a year or two away, but we are going to reach that point where people still keep talking about him as the most underrated player in the league even though everyone acknowledges that he's just a great player he's the he's the next louis ericsson is what you're saying yes yeah where he's still underrated to the point where he's

like already in decline people are like have you heard of this guy sebastian oh yeah yeah uh i i definitely am guilty of that saying that he's like the best player that not enough people talk about right i think it's mostly due to him being in carolina and the fact that they've been expected to be great for a few years and just end up middling so he kind of gets lost but yeah i think most people especially the people that we talk to every day know very well who sebastian aho is and you know he's just so frigging talented he can come at you every single way he's a versatile attacker he can make plays with the best of him he can score that he's probably going to hit 30 goals this year for the first time which you know he almost said it last year he's just an incredible player um

His play without the puck is actually quite strong as well. He is not the top transition player at his position or anything, but he's decent enough. And yeah, defensively, I mean, I think coming up through that Carolina system probably also helps because you've got, you know, a very structured play that they have either with Bill Peters or now with Rod Brindamore. So you kind of learn that structure and become a key cog right away if you've got the talent and the will to, commit to it. So he's just the all around good player. I don't see many stark weaknesses with Aho. And I think that's, you know, it sounds like a boring compliment, but it's a big compliment. I agree with that. That's well said. Okay, let's move up the list. Who do you have after Ajo?

After Aho, I have Patrick Lainey. Which he's further down the list than a lot of people would have, but he's going to move up the list. He'll get up there. I think the thing about line A is right now, you have to remember that his first two years in the NHL, he was a teenager, he was a fairly young teenager as well. And he scored more goals as a teenager than anybody in the NHL history except for two guys.

Jimmy Carson and Dale Howard Chuck, who both played in the 80s, when goalenders were stopping about 85% of shots. He was shooting on 9-1-3 goalies and has a mind-bearing. endingly high shooting percentage that seems to be completely sustainable somehow. He probably has the best shot in NHL history at this point. He's shooting at nearly double league average, which is just nuts for a guy who actually shoots with a bit of volume as well.

So if he's able to maintain that and increase his shot volume, which is something that happens for most players moving out of their teenage years who are shooters first, you know, the heights that he can hit are, incredible. You know, we're really focused on Austin Matthews right now and his ability to be, you know, maybe push 60 goals this year. I think line A can do that too. I think eventually line A will probably score more goals than Austin Matthews in his career. Matthews is a better all-around player. But I think the main thing for line A that I'm looking for is a bit more all-around play. And I've actually seen it this year. His line has been really, really strong. And he's actually committed a little bit more to, his play without the puck. So I think he's got the wheels and the skills to become a much better two-way player. He just isn't quite there yet. Yeah. No, I think that's fair. I've had him 17 on my list. But yeah, he's right there. Obviously, he's a name that's going to keep moving up this. And I wouldn't be surprised whether it was a year or two from now, if he's firmly in the top 10. The defensive and

two-way play is definitely fair. It's when he's in the offensive zone and what he's capable of, and sort of the reputation he's already getting, but just that shot is such a weapon. And he's had a bit of a slow start to the season offensively. I know he scored the first goal of the season for Winnipeg, and then he scored a second one on the power play. Yeah, last night against Carolina. But we saw last year where he had a bit of a funk,

and then he started growing out with a beard, and then all of a sudden he was literally scoring a goal every single game they played for multiple weeks. So he's going to get his in that race for the Rocket Richard, even though Matthews has a bit of a head start with him and, uh, and, uh, and Oetkin, obviously is going to be quite a spectacular battle as the season gets going. I know we talked about that a bit on the last podcast when we're talking about centers and Matthews, but I'm really looking forward to that as a as a key storyline as the season progresses and man, yeah, line A just, just, just, what a player.

And I feel like with pure snipers, such as himself, um, sometimes it can get a bit overlooked, but I have also seen a bit more playmaking problem this season. And I feel like when you're that good of a shooter, kind of like Stamcoast, obviously they're going to have a bit of a gravitational pull and everyone's going to move towards you and have their eyes keyed on you when you have the puck, especially in the powerplay. So if you are able to expand your game a little bit and hit guys with passes, cross-seam, especially, all of a sudden you're pretty much indefensible. And I feel like at some point we're going to reach that peak with lining as an offensive player.

Yeah, it's common. And you can see it. Like you said, his playmaking is taking a step. He's, and he's fun to watch. And also one of the best quotes in the league, if not the best, like his chirps at the Canucks earlier this season, this season, fantastic. And the goat beard, I hope he grows it back because it's so ugly and awful. I just love it. I love having a guy with that much talent also showing his personality.

You know, it does remind me a little bit of Ovecchian when he first broke into the league. and you remember when he hit his hole in one. And there was always a video camera on Ovechkin in his first couple years in the league. And he's still just as boisterous. So I hope line A is the same way and just never loses that quality. Yeah. No, the beard was good. I don't know, it was a hot take.

But I want him to bring back that, like, evil villain mustache that he had for a while. I think it was like two years ago at the awards. And he had it a bit during the regular season. But just like blonde, wispy mustache. It's great. It's great. It would like the slick back hair. It's such a good villain look.

Um, yeah, no line is awesome. And it's nice to see that you're right. In the pre-draft process, he was showing that personality. And I was like, uh, I just hope the NHL doesn't suck the fun out of them. And in the first couple seasons, uh, so far, so good. So let's hope that continues. Um, okay, so let's, let's go through my list a little bit here. So I had Neil under 20. Um, and then I had line A at 17, as I mentioned. So bridging those two guys at 18, 19, I had, uh, Alex Radulov and Jake Warwick. Um, we've talked a bit about, um, we've talked a bit about Radjolava. I don't know you mentioned him as being one of your honorable mentions. Jake Voracek, man, he, I understand the, the reservations maybe about having him high on this list

just because so much of his production, especially last year, came on the power play, and he gets to likewise play with great players. But I just can't shake this feeling whenever I watch the Flyers. And listen, I'm huge on Sean Coutureen, and I have Claudeau-Jureux, than I'm on this list, but I feel like every time I watch the Flyers, what I come away with is Jake Vorechek is just by the eye test Philadelphia's best player. Like some of the stuff he's capable of with protecting the puck and finding that perfect balance of size and skill is really kind of just draws your eyes to him. And I feel like, and he's obviously the numbers themselves match this up, but he's a heck of a playmaker. And that's why I had him at 19 on my list.

Yeah, I had him in around like the 25. range. I really like Voracek. I think I'm slightly biased about him just because, you know, when I did these breakdowns the first time three years ago, he was actually, I think he was either the top or like the second best transition player period among forwards. Like he was phenomenal. And he's kind of taken a step down there each of the last three seasons. So I'm like, is he, you know, playing a different role? Is he starting to decline a little bit early? Is he just, you know, was the sample that I had just, you know, his peak and now he's, you know, not necessarily in decline, but kind of leveling off, plateauing. He had a big bounce back year last year just like Jeru did, not just in terms

of offensive production, but the underlyings overall, big defensive year as well. I think he's a really good player. I just would put him as the third best player on that line, I think, which is crazy, but also that line is incredible. And it's a pretty stiff competition between Kuturier and Drew. Yeah. Well, I mean, listen, I have Claudeau at 11 on this list, and I had Sean Kutriere as my 20th best center, I believe. So I'm obviously very high in that line. So yeah, when you say he's the third best player in that line, that can be true while also just not being like a diss to worry checking what he's capable of right just because now that you guys are so great um i have because i had mitch marner at 15 so just to round this out uh at 16 i had jaden

schwartz yeah he's good he's really good very good i had him off my list but uh i feel like part of it is is uh he has missed quite a bit of time which obviously is a fair and ock like it's tough to know how much of that is he's injury prone to how much of it is bad luck like he could very easily string together 82 games this season and all of a sudden that that perspective or line of thinking would change. But yeah, he's just one of those guys, especially playing with Vlad Tarasenko, who will get to in a bit. Those two fits so well together,

but obviously just because Teresanko is a bit flashier and scores most of the goals, I feel like Schwartz winds up living in the shadows a little bit, but just what he's capable of, like when they don't have the puck and getting it, securing it, and getting it to Teresanko is a thing to marvel at whenever he's on the ice. Yeah, I think he's an under-example-up. rated not just playmaker but you know passer all around all around the ice he's uh he's a really versatile player i really like jaden schwartz i think what holds him back slightly for me is i think he's just like um just like that one tier below the very top wingers right and uh i think that

there's potential that he could take an extra step but i think you'd need he needs tarasenko to be great for him to take that step, right? And I feel like as great as that line was overall last year, you know, like when you go back and look at it, Teresanko actually didn't score as much as you would think that he did. Like, I actually hope they're a little bit better this year. And I'm actually surprised that St. Louis broke that lineup right away, which I guess, you know, when Ryan O'Reilly steps into your lineup,

you can move things around however you want. But they were so good together that it was a bit surprising to me that, you know, it's not Shen Schwartz and Teresenko again this year. Yeah, yeah. But they have, they're amongst, like, the most loaded teams up front in terms of the chess pieces they have. So I'm sure that as the year gets going,

especially since there's so many new faces in there with both young players and free agents they signed, like I'm sure Mike Yo will, we'll figure out that best combination at some point in the year. So let's continue on with your list there because we're inside my top 15 now. So who, who's next up on yours?

At 14, I have, Oh, so we've done your 15 to 20? Yep. It was Gallagher, Patruetti, Nealander, Marner, Aho. Okay. And Lining. Okay, that's great. Let's take one more quick break here, and then we're going to do your top 15 on the other end.

I just wanted to take a quick little break here in the show to remind you guys that this season, we are hosting daily fantasy contests over a fan duel each and every Thursday this season. We'd pick Thursday because that seems to be the busiest weekday in the schedule. and the more games are, the more players that are available, and the more diversity with the lineups, and it just creates more variability and more fun with the contests. The turnout so far in the first two weeks has been really good, and I'm hoping we keep that going, and we'll see where it goes.

So just a quick little refresher for those of you that are new to daily fantasy, all you have to do is go to Fandul. Fandul.com slash PDO and let them know that we sent you, and when you make your deferreds deposit, FanDol is actually going to give you a $20 bonus to give you some extra low spending cash to play with. And I guarantee once you get going with Van Duel and you start playing some of these daily fantasy contests,

you're going to be using that because it's pretty addictive. So let's say it's a Thursday. You sign up. You join the contest by clicking the link I'm going to send out and tweet out there. And you take up one of the 20 slots that are available. And then you pick your lineup based on the players that are available and playing on that given night. And then you go up against myself and the rest of the competition.

And the best team wins. I think the first three top prizes wind up winning some cash. So other than that, you know, there's plenty of bragging rights available as well. I typically suck at these daily fantasy contests, so you'll probably finish ahead of me. So even if you don't wind up finishing the top three or winning money, you'll have at least that going for you. There are only 20 slots available. It's the maximum that Fandu allows me to create for these contests. So it is going on a first-come-first-serve basis, and the slots do typically go pretty quickly.

So I'll either tweet out the link on Wednesday night or Thursday morning once I open the contest. And as soon as you see it out there, just make sure you sign up and take up one of the slots so that you don't miss out on the fun. If you really want to make sure that you get in on it and you think you might not be waiting on Twitter on Thursday morning for me to tweet out that link and you don't want to miss it, just feel free to message me and I will make sure to pass along the link to you so that you can reserve one of the slots and not miss out on it. it. I'm looking forward to seeing you all there. So, yeah, that's vandal.com slash PDO and just make sure we make sure you let them know that I sent you. And we're going to have some fun every each and every Thursday. So I'm looking forward to it. With that out of the way, let's get back to finishing up this list with Andrew Barkshire and ranking the top winger in the NH home.

All right. Let's do this. So who's your 14? My 14 is our good friend, Filipovich Forsberg. Yeah, he's also my 14. I feel like we had to be both at I. Michael at 10 on our list last time. So we always have like the one guy who we completely agree upon. So let's get into Philopovich. Awesome. He's Nashville's best forward by far.

Versatile playmaker and scoring chance producer. He scores goals that, you know, his point production is only in like the 60-ish range, like the 60s. But he scores goals that you expect from guys that are in like the 90-point range. You know, like, he's just, he has this tantalizing talent that makes you think that he could all of a sudden one year push like 100 points, right? Like, that's how good he is. But he just hasn't got there. And, you know, he's a good transition player, great defensive player.

He's just all around excellent. I think, you know, it wouldn't surprise me if Forsberg has like a, not MVP quality, but in that, like the same thing that Hall did last year, but maybe not quite as good. Well, Andrew, thank you for all those kind words about me. Yeah, I know, I know. I generally don't know how to take a compliment, but you just shower me with so much affection there that I'm overwhelmed. No, he is awesome. He's right up there with Matthews as like the two guys with the most sort of elusive shots or just where they, how quickly they can release it and the torque they can get on it while also doing it from weird, unpredictable angles.

and tricky timing for goalies to position themselves is a thing of beauty. He scored a goal the other day. He was on kind of like a two-on-one with Ryan Johansson. I think it was against the Islanders on Saturday. And the time it took from Johansson flinging the passover to him to it being behind the goalie and in the net was just like it was insane. It literally, like the replay like could barely capture how it just spent no time on his stick and he was able to get so much on it with such precision.

And it's funny because I feel like when. you know he obviously made a name for himself as a prospect uh i believe he was sweden's team captain for world juniors and when washington drafted him everyone liked him as a prospect but he felt like one of those guys like he felt like he was going to be just like an awesome kind of two-way player with more of that prototypical swedish like defensive responsibility and and just being very solid i didn't see this offensive upside coming from him but he's just been so insane over the past couple seasons and you're right i'm not sure what his ultimate ceiling is for uh pure volume of points just because Nashville has enough depth to go around to not necessarily just need to rely on one

line to eat up a crazy amount of minutes like a team like florida does for example with asher barcoff so i'm not sure how much he's going to play and how much he's going to be able to produce uh points wise but he's as lethal as it gets as a goal scorer and does a bunch of other stuff too and that's why we both had him at 14. Yeah, and I remember when he was in the, like, in the World Junior's area. And like that, you're right, the knock on him was that he wasn't going to be a big point producer in the NHL. But then I remember looking at the World Juniors and I believe he'd led both the World

juniors that he played in in shots. And that's always something that sticks out to me. Like, if somebody is putting up that kind of volume, usually there's something there. And it might take a little while for them to get to that. that point in the NHL where those shots turn into goals, but that guy's going to be a goal scorer eventually. And obviously, Washington didn't believe that and made one of the worst trades of all time. But yeah, he's really good. I thought he was going to be a little bit better than, or at least offensively, than the general scouting community, I would say, thought he

was going to be. But it's crazy when you think about it. Like, it's easy to say with 2020 hindsight now, but how far down he slipped in the draft looks pretty crazy. Yeah. In the draft, it wasn't very good. And that he was traded for Marty. You're at. Well, yes, that too. Yes, obviously, yeah.

Okay, let's move away from this discussion of my capabilities as a player and get to your number 13 on this list. All right. 13, I have once again the worst player on his line, David Pasternak. I've met 12. So we're right there. We're right in the same range. Yeah, Pasternak, that's like the least insulting you could be about a player. being the worst,

worst player on their line because that is, bar none the best line in the NHL, I would say. Yeah, he is ridiculous. You know what's funny? A friend of the podcast, Chris Johnson on Saturday during Pastor Nax Hattrick against Detroit, tweeted about how,

you know, he's a superstar and how it's quite a rise from him where he went like 24th or whatever in his draft a couple years ago. And people took issue with the fact that he called him a superstar. And they're like, you know, oh, look at his, look at the lot guys. he's playing with like that's he's a good player he's not a great player and then you just look at sort of his progression over the past couple seasons but also just watching and some of the individual

efforts he's capable of and that ridiculous goal he scored the other day where he went that crossed over between the legs and wound up scoring against the oilers um he's a he's a freak offensively man and he he kind of similar to uh ricard rakel that we were talking about earlier seems to just be adding an extra gear to his game every season. And I wouldn't be shocked at all this year if he winds up getting into that 40 plus goal range. And yeah, that entire line, man, what an embarrassment of riches. What a fun line to watch.

Because I'm generally against stacking a line like that, I feel like for roster composition, it's probably better to spread it out, especially in the regular season. But those three guys are just so great together that it's one of those rare exceptions where it might just be better just to keep them full time. Yeah. And I think, you know, you look even, I remember when Pesterneck first broke in the NHL at 18 and he was kind of playing like sporadically. Like already you could tell he was going to be a gamer, right? Like even without that line, he looked fantastic.

Like 27 points in his first 46 games is an 18 year old, I think. He's, man, it's crazy to think that he's just 22. Like he feels like a veteran because he plays in that line. Like that's a very veteran line. They're, you know, the best two-way line in the league. and he's 22. That is just crazy to me. And I feel like he feels bigger than he is as well.

Like he's only six feet tall, but he just, he gets the spots. He battles through checks. He looks a bit sometimes like a power forward. And I'm just so impressed with him. And the high end skill he has, not just for shooting, but for making little plays in the offensive zone, setting up his teammates. Like, how happy must everyone on that line be? to go to work every day. You know, like, you know, Boston's a good team anyway,

but that line, like, just playing on it, you have to just smile every time you're on the ice because you're having fun. Well, again, that's all that matters, man, having fun. Greg, those are you doing. Yeah, no, guys like Lina and Matthews kind of skew our expectations sometimes just because the feats they reach at such a young age

are so ridiculous that you sort of comparing everyone else to them diminishes or unfairly views. guys but yeah the fact that pastor knack is only 22 and has already scored 100 goals in the NHL is is ridiculous and yeah he's uh he's one of those guys that made it right after his draft year which is pretty rare for a guy where he was picked and he's uh he's getting better every season so he's heck of a player um who do you have let's let's round out let's get to your top 10 so who do you have is the next couple guys okay the next couple guys it actually like physically hurt me to not put them in the top 10 but there's just so many guys uh i had jamie ben at 12 he's kind of falling down a little

for me and Johnny Goddrow, who as great as he is, just like his play without the puck just knocked him right outside the top 10, just on the very edge, he's at 11. So I had Jamie Ben at 9, and I had Johnny Goodro at 7. So, yeah, I'm obviously

even higher than you on the old with those guys, but you're right. If you want to bump him down a few spots, it's very feasible just because of some of the names we're going to get to here. But, all right, let's Let's take one of those one by one then. Do you want to do Ben first? Yeah, sure. So Ben is kind of falling down for the same reason as why Segan didn't finish in my top 20 centers.

Both of them are phenomenal players. But for some reason, the last three years, all of Dallas's forwards, their transition games have gotten worse and worse each year. I don't know if it's coaching. I would have to look what's happened so far this year where all of a sudden the stuff, look really fun and great again. You know, maybe things have rebounded, and I'm punishing them for something that was a coaching decision or a coaching impact.

But Ben has not been as impressive for the last couple years. It's the year that I think he won the Hart Trophy, didn't he? Am I imagining that? He definitely won a scoring title. Yeah, he definitely won a scoring title. So, yeah, I feel like it's impossible to keep that level. so saying that he fell down from there is kind of unfair,

but I just expect more from Jamie Ben because he's so big, so talented, so good both at playmaking and scoring, that it just, my expectations maybe are too high and unfair for him, and that's why he got bumped down, but I expect him to be a higher impact player without the puck and in the neutral zone

now that the focus is a little bit different in Dallas. Right, yeah. I mean, the fact that, you know, he probably won't reach those 2015-16 levels where he had 41 goals and 89 points. Like, is, both those things can be true where you can say he's not that bad player anymore while also acknowledging that he's really freaking good.

And I just, yeah, I mean, I think it's fair to wonder. Like, listen, he's going to turn 30 this summer and obviously with his kind of body type and the physical nature of his game. Like, it makes sense that there'd be some attrition there and wear and tear. And the good thing for him and the stars is that he is coming from such a lofty level that even if he, every year, you know, deteriorates a little bit. He can still be a really, really effective player.

So, yeah, I think he's right there. Like him, Rajlov and Say Again are awesome. I've really enjoyed watching the stars. season and I'm so thankful for that because last year was such a slog with that team and they look back to being they've already had an amazing game against Winnipeg and the game against Toronto was really fun and so I was too low on them in my watchability rankings before the season now that I've actually seen them under Jim Montgomery I'm willing to bump them up and yeah Ben's a big reason for that as for good row it's quite quite quite the transition because I guess they're slightly different players both in

stature and how they play. But man, he is right up there. If you're making a list of guys who are the most fun to watch in the league, like, it's going to be a very, very short list before you get to his name. Yeah, he's, he's so, so talented. You know what he is? He's like the cheat, not even a cheat code, but do you remember, like, in the old NHL games, there was always a player who was just like faster than every other player, super small, so you like couldn't really check him. And like, you always traded for him. Like, Merrick's Vatos back in like the early 2000s was was that guy. Even in the 90s, it was like cliff running and all those games was super awesome.

That's like what Johnny Godreau is, but in real life, he's so quick. I still think he's the best three-on-three player in the NHL. Just that extra space gives him so much more ability to create. He's got speed, finesse. He's not afraid to get in tight to the net. He's not afraid of a little physical confrontation. The only thing with Goddrow that I want to see a little bit of improvement in is just his play without the puck. And, you know, part of that could be, you know, just straight up physical limitation

that he can get out muscle too easily. And, you know, you don't want to see him, like, coming in and being jacked and, like, sacrificing speed or something just to, like, win more puck battles, you know, or coming in all top heavy with, you know, like big shoulders and arms and losing his balance or something. You don't want to change his game too much, but it keeps him from being, you know, the top top player at his position, but he's right there anyway. I was just kind of laughing at the thought of him just coming back one summer and you know how guys, the cliche of guys being in the best shape of your life, like he just comes back, just ridiculously jacked.

It's like, what the hell is Johnny Goodrow doing this summer? He's got a little bit of like Mark Bergevan upper body there. Yeah. I mean, the good thing for him is, you know, he's obviously coming into the league at the right time and even, what was it last year when they changed the rules towards like, the slashes at a hand and stuff, which he was victimized by defensemen by. So like, it's physically, hopefully he'll be able to, uh, to stay in the lineup and keep playing his game because when he is firing on all the slenders, he's ridiculous. And I think if you're skeptical of his capabilities

and how high he is on these lists, just ask a, ask a guy like Elias Linholm what it's like to play with him. Because after years of, uh, below average shooting percentages and not living up to the prospect hype. He looks like he's going to score a ton of goals, just riding shotgun with Goodrow and being in the right place at the right time. Yeah. And speaking of, you know, maybe some changes in Dallas and getting more exciting, I knew that they were scoring a lot, but that top line in Dallas has 27 points in four games. Yeah. Yeah, they are pretty good. That's pretty decent. Yeah, not bad. Yeah, I've, that's why I had Alex Radjoloff at 18 or whatever on my list. And Ben's pretty high as well. So let's, let's keep going with your list then. So we've done.

Ben and Good row. Where are we at in the terms of the numbers? We're at number 10. Okay. Ooh, there we go. Number 10, we got a, we got a nice little siren to, uh, to mark the milestone. That's pretty convenient. Speaking of Mark, I have Mark Stone next on my list.

Oh, do you? Okay. Okay. I have stone up a little bit higher. Hmm. Yeah, I'm, I'm very high on Mark Stone. And, uh, with good reason. Yes, for good reason.

But number 10, I have. Alex Olvechkin, which will get a bunch of people angry at me again, just like last year. Yeah, I have a nine on my list, so I'm right there with you. I feel like we were even lower on him last year for some reason. Well, yeah, I think because we did wingers separate last year, I think, and I think I had him 10th among left wingers, or maybe a little bit higher, maybe like in like the nine or eight range. I can't recall.

But he had a great bounce back year last year. He really started getting more active in the transition game, started attacking off the rush more. which, you know, is partially a consequence of playing with Evgeny Kuznetsov where you're not just, you know, trying to retrieve pucks and setting up for those cycle chances, like you're pretending it's a power play, but it's at even strength. So Ovi kind of played a little bit more like he did in his early 20s.

And I was skeptical if he could, you know, keep up that level of skating all season long, but he did. I don't know if he changed his workout regime in the offseason, but he was serious when he said that they weren't going to be sucked last year. Yeah, and he's, I don't want to say like consolidated or bounce back because he's had so many great seasons, but he looks like he's still that same Alex O'Echkin this season. Like he's looked really good. There's definitely no Stanley Cup hangover.

There's no negative after effects off of his summer of very intense binge drinking. And he's been, he's been great, man. he's he's one of those guys where even understanding the defensive limitations he still might have and he might not be sort of you know the most well-rounded two-way player some of these other guys on this list like his unique ability to just especially when he's on a zay game just like single-handedly take over a game sort of by pure force and what he's capable of both with the puck and also just kind of hovering around and throwing his body around and like he had some of those games and in the postseason last year where you're just like, man, this guy, I don't know what he was doing

before the game, but it looks like he just did a million Red Bulls because he's just flying out there and just like not willing to be a bystander, not willing to see his team lose. And so that ability to play that big of a role over the course of a game is, um, is kind of unique to him. Like there's very few players on this list that have that type of ability. And so yeah, that he's, very well deserving of his spot on on our rankings. Yeah, he actually had his best defensive year last year of the last four years, which,

you know, it's not a high bar. It's a relative, yes. Yeah, like he, he conserves his energy. I think that's like pretty obvious to anybody who's seen him play, but he's just so impressive. The, not just the way he plays, but his health,

you know, like his entire career, outside of suspensions, he's missed something like 15 games, and he throws himself around like a wrecking ball. Yeah. You know, at high speed, you know, the whole Russian machine never breaks website

couldn't have been titled more perfectly because he, he's just, I don't know if he's built like an old Soviet tank or something, but he just like, you know, even if he's having an off year, it seems like he just like,

you know, smacks himself on the leg and he'll score 50 again. And again, this is a guy that an off year, we're talking about a 33 goal season, and pushing 70 points. Yeah. You know, like, he's just unbelievable. I don't think we'll ever see a player quite like Ovechkin again.

Between the shot volume, the ability to just blow through guys, it's unbelievable. Like, I have said that like five times, but he's just such a special player and we're, we're lucky to be able to watch him. You know what I mean? Like, watch him playing his prime. I hope he scores 50 again. this year. I just want him to push Gretzky's goal scoring record.

That's what I want from him the rest of his career. Yeah, well, just based on the consistency and longevity, obviously, eventually he will slow down a little bit. But like I said, with Ben, his like where he's been at and his peak is so high that even if he drops down a little bit, he'll still be scoring in the 30s for at least a couple more

season. So I think I kind of highlighted as like, I think it was like 800 goals or so as like a realistic benchmark, which I believe would kind of bump him into that right there behind Gretzky for for second, which is just ridiculous, especially given the era he's playing in. He's, uh, in my mind, easily the, the, the most lethal goal score ever when you kind of account for the time he's been playing in. Um, who do, okay, let's let's keep going. Let's, let's hammer through

this top 10. We're already at like 75 minutes. Okay, so, uh, you want to just like, throw out the names? Uh, yeah, yeah, let's just do that and then we'll get into them because I feel like at this point, we pretty much have the same names, left over for the most part. Yeah, for sure. Okay. So at nine, I've got Blake Wheeler. Eight is Teresanko. Seven is Claude Giroux. Six is Mark Stone. Five is Patrick Kane. Four is Artemi Panarin. Three, Brad Marchand. Two, reigning MVP, Taylor Hall. And one is Nikita Kutrov. Yeah. Yeah. So I have Kutraub, one, Taylor Hall, two. And then I have Patrick Kane, Brad Mershan, Rattemi Panarin as my top five. So same guys. So same guys.

much there. Yeah. Yes. Okay, let's just, let's go through most of those guys. Who do you, who out of that bunch is the most interesting?

Because I feel like, especially with like Kuturov and Hall, it's like, yeah, those guys are really good. They put up a lot of points and they dominate the game. Well,

and we've already talked about Marshawn a fair bit as well. But you know what? You know what, though? Marshan, I was looking at this, what I was doing a bit of my research for this. Since the start of 2016-17,

so the past two plus seasons or whatever, only Kutcherov, McDavid and Malkin, have more points per game than him, which is just insane, right? Like, I, we've talked about this, but I, I, he was still like an effective player and I, I thought he'd have a long, long role in this league, but I'd never envisioned this type of upside from him. And the heights he's reached as, as both a goal score and a playmaker, like, I just, I guess

no one really could have reasonably seen it coming based on how his career started. Yeah, well, I remember when, like, that, like, second breakout. season that he had because, you know, he broke out into a first-line player back in 2011. But in 2016-17, when he scored 85 points, I was like, wow, that's an incredible season, but he'll never do that again. And then last season, he put up 85 points in 68 games. Like, Brad, how are you doing this? And already this season 10 and 5, so he's on the way to getting there again. So he's pretty special. It's too bad that he can't, you know, not be a jerk. Apparently he's become quite the nice guy off the ice and he's quite progressive and does a lot of work for charity.

So that helps. But yeah, on the ice, he's not. Just stop, stop licking people. Just stop licking. Okay. Yeah. That's fair. Reasonable expectations.

No more bridging. No more jumping people because they celebrated a goal. Yeah. But yeah, outside of Marshawn, I think Stone is always interesting for me because he's great offensively. Maybe not it, like top five great. Or, you know, he's not going to compete with the Teresankos or wheelers in terms of point production, but he's close. But he's the best defensive winger in the game. He's just, he's Patrice Bergeron on the wing to me, his ability to strip opponents of possession, take those loose bucks, transition to back up the ice.

He's just really incredible. And somehow, despite the fact that he's put up great point production and it has kind of been on an island in Ottawa. and, you know, he gets a fair amount of attention, he's still kind of underrated around the NHL. Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, it's just because those point totals and goal totals in particular haven't necessarily reached the heights of some of these other guys on this list. So, like, for your casual mainstream fan, maybe when you're just sorting by those counting stats, he's not going to pop up at the top of it, so you're not going to think of him conventionally

as that type of guy. But, yeah, his ability to take the puck away from guys and his defensive prowess, especially in the neutral zone, is already well documented at this point. And he's a heck of a player. I'm very curious to see what the future holds for him and where he'll be playing and how maybe a potential change of scenery or just playing with better players will impact those point totals. And maybe he has even another gear in him if he's in a more competitive setting.

But that's a discussion for another day. Let's support some of the other guys. Like Teresenko, I feel like we talked about him a bit when we were talking about Schwartz. He's right there below of Edgegan. in terms of just the most consistent goal scores, I feel like 35 to 40 is just money in the bank. You can write it in with a Sharpie and he's going to get there. And maybe now playing with a playmaker and a dominant center

like Ryan O'Reilly might even take his game to another level, hopefully. So I'm very curious to see what his end of year production looks like after this season. Yeah, absolutely. I want to ask you a question. Do you think Clodhuru's bounceback season last year is, real enough that he's going to be like a top end producer again this year because this guy like this is super interesting to me this like this move to the wing like at first I kind of like turned up my nose a little bit at it because whenever you put a center on the wing usually you know their

production goes down because they they kind of thrive on being involved in the middle of the ice but jeru all of a sudden went from you know 58 points the season before to 102 his best season of all like his entire career best goal scoring season as well but obviously his shooting percentage was quite high. So I don't think anybody expects another 100-point season out of him, but I feel like, you know, 80 if he plays at the same level, is not out of the question. But he was by far the biggest mover of all the players that I looked at

over the last three years in terms of where their career was going and trending and what they did last year. It was just he was on a fairly linear decline the last few seasons. And then he just all of a sudden, was back up to peak shrew like the best numbers of his career by every category well i think part of it was health too right i think it was like he had a very mangled wrist and you could see that in terms of uh both the shot volume and his willingness to shoot but also where he was shooting it from and it felt like i believe every year for like three or three seasons or so uh he had been like

moving further and further away from the net and it was just an interesting um trajectory for him then obviously, yeah, whenever it's there to be a bit kind of, uh, hesitant to fully buy in when a guy has one season that just kind of turns back the clock as far as it did. But it makes sense with everything lining up like Gutrrier is so good defensively down the middle that it makes sense that alleviating some of that and bringing him up to be more of an offensive playmaker would jive well with him. And it's credit to him because I feel like, especially with the top players, like don't you feel like generally they don't accept that type of a switch like it feels like these top guys sort of take pride in playing down the middle and all of that responsibility that comes

with it and sort of the gravitas of it and whenever we hear about potentially moving to the wing or being asked to play a different role there's like a lot of pushback and a lot of pride and ego gets in the way and with him he was like yeah like that makes a ton of sense i'm sure a contriere being as good as he is helps a lot with that transition but you know that power play is awesome so i wouldn't be I wouldn't be shocked at all to see him once again hovering amongst the top five to ten point getters in the league with 80 plus points. Like I think that's a pretty reasonable expectation for him, assuming health. Yeah. And I feel like that's, you mentioned it, but it's really something to admire about him that he didn't put up a big fuss.

You know, like with a coach who, you know, a lot of people in Philly have questioned fairly openly about, you know, some of the decisions that he's made. And Drew just bought in. It kind of reminded me when Patrick Marlow was put on the wing a few years ago. and I think that really extended his career as well because he was kind of, you know, and he has declined, obviously. He's 38 or 39 now, I think, but he's still got the speed and he can still put pucks in the net. So he's still a pretty good hockey player. And I feel like maybe that's what we're seeing with Drew here is a bit of, you know,

adding some longevity to his career by taking on a less stressful role. But maybe this is, you know, it's kind of the same thing and not even worth mentioning. but, you know, we talked about it with Jeru, the injury history, and I feel like he might have had something with his hip as well during that time. Yeah, his mobility for sure was down. Yeah. So I wonder, you know, how much we talk about like Asian curves and stuff like that, how much of it is cumulative injury and not necessarily just getting older. But I guess like, you know, part of getting older is getting injured, yeah. Injured hurt like a little bit easier, right? I mean, anybody who hits the 30 mark and tries to get it off of a couch, we'll tell you that.

Mm-hmm. Okay. a fun question for you then. With Kuturov, like I said last year at some point, and I do stand by this. I think with him, it's, and this is a testament to just the levels he's reached, because it's really tough for wingers to vault themselves into this status. But like for me, when you're talking about him and his place in the game and sort of ranking him against his peers, like, I view his peers as that McDavid Crosby group of guys, as opposed to the other guys that play his position. Like, when I was doing this list, it was just, immediately I started, I roll Kutrava number one, and then I started filling it out after that.

And I don't know, he's just, he's just so damn good, man. I view him as his competition is the best players in the league, regardless of whether they're playing center or defense and not necessarily just lumping him in with other wingers. Yeah, he was quite the far gap ahead of the next best winger when I was putting everything together, which is crazy because I actually thought last year, like, there was a lot of buzz about him for the Hart Trophy in like the mid-season time and then it kind of cooled down near the end of the year and it seemed like it was Victor Hedman who got the um like the award for Tampa Bay's great season.

Yep. Uh, but Kutrov was their best player all year. Um, the one thing that held him off of like my fake awards ballot because I don't have one was the fact that he was actually, uh, maybe I could be wrong because I, last time I looked into it, the season wasn't over. but he was actually a negative in rel goals. And I feel like if you're on your team's top line, you're having a season like that.

And part of it is just bad luck. But if you look at previous Hart trophy winners, except for Corey Perry, they're all way, way above team average. So you have to really stand out in actual goals. Because when the season's over, we're not talking about predictive stats anymore. It's what did you actually do?

So for me, that held him off. But then when you actually break down the total impact of play, he was actually still at the top. So maybe he should have been on the heart ballot there. So he's a confusing one for me because I feel like sometimes the on-ice stats don't do justice to how great he is. Right. Which is strange with a player that good because usually they do. Yeah. Yeah, I think leaving him off your heart ballot last year is just,

kind of a testament to how many good candidates there were last year and it was just such an epic season up top so like saying you was the fifth or sixth or seventh or whatever most valuable players is perfectly fine and i don't want to get into a whole hard discussion debate but yeah obviously like playing on a great team and having a second line with a brain point on it like that's going to affect your your relative totals a little bit and guys get knocked for sure for saying they're not as valuable their team because there's other great players around but it's pretty clear that out of the bunch, Kuturov is the best and most important, and his presence on the ice is a huge factor to Tampa Bay's success. And kind of like what we were talking about with line A in terms of,

I feel like Kutrov generally started out or was thought of as being a trigger man and sort of being a lethal shooter. And then now he's really, over the past couple of seasons, become this dominant playmaker and sort of soaking in the defensive attention and then feeding it to other guys and making lives easier for them. And that's sort of, that's like the highest level you can reach as, as a dominant offensive player when you can not just do it for yourself, but also make, make it so much easier for those around you. Yeah.

And he's another guy that for the last three years has had that linear progression where he just keeps getting better, right? So he's, I'm excited to see what he can do this year because, you know, obviously he's very keyed on. He was last year after his 85 point season the year before where he scored 40 goals. I think that he could hit again, you know, I think he could easily have another 100-point season. I think Stamco has more to give as well, you know, his shooting percentage has dropped a little bit, and maybe that could be a bit of decline in this game.

But with playing with a guy like Kuturab who can move the puck as well as Kuturab, I feel like there's no excuse for Stam Kost not scoring, you know, 40 goals. You know, I think he can hit that. And then if that line clicks and they have a great power play again, watch out. You know, like Tampa Bay is so stacked at every position. It's not fair, really. Yeah, they're pretty good. Tampa Bay's got some skill in their team.

If there's anything you take away from their podcast, let it be that. All right, Andrew, let's get out of here. People can follow you on Twitter and Andrew Berkshire. They could check out all your work at Sportsnet, and you're writing about the Jets these days with the Winnipeg Free Press. What was it? Indeed. Yes.

And I'm going to have you back on. on to rank the defenseman, I think, sometime early next week. So people can look forward to that. Go check out the centers podcast we did last week. And that's going to be it for today. So thanks again for taking the time, Andrew, and we will chat next week. My pleasure. Can't wait, buddy. Have a good one. Beocast with Dim Philipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at SoundCloud.com slash hockey PDOCast.