The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 269: The Episode about F---ing Horses---

Episode Date: December 31, 2018

Sean Shapiro joins the show to fully unpack the surreal comments coming out of Dallas that sent shock waves through the hockey world (1:50), how the Stars got into this mess to begin with after a series of failed bets this summer (14:10), the likelihood that Tyler Seguin bounces back (22:45), potentially trading Jamie Benn (32:00), Miro Heiskanen's rookie season (40:15), and the state of the franchise moving forward (47:30). Sponsoring today’s show is SeatGeek, which is making it easier than ever before to buy and sell sports and concert tickets. They’re giving our listeners a $10 rebate off of their first purchase. All you have to do is download the free SeatGeek app and enter the promo code PDO to get started. A reminder that we’re hosting a daily fantasy listener league contest over at FanDuel every Thursday this season. While you wait for the next opportunity to play to come around, go over to fanduel.com/PDO and tell them we’ve sent you. They’ll hook you up with a bonus $5 to play with after your first deposit, which will surely come in handy throughout the year. See you there! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Are you ready for the most ridiculous internet sports show you have ever seen? Welcome to React, home of the most outrageous and hilarious videos the web has to offer. So join me, Rocky Theas, and my co-host, Raiders Pro Bowl Defensive Inn, Max Crosby, as we invite your favorite athletes, celebrities, influencers, entertainers in for an episode of games, laughs, and, of course, the funniest reactions to the wildest web clips out there. Catch React on YouTube, and that is React, R-E-A-X-X. Don't miss it. This podcast episode is brought to you by Coors Light.

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My name is Dimitri Filipovich. I wasn't actually even planning on doing a show this week. I've been eating a lot of good food, spending time with the friends and family, you know, all the typical holiday break stuff. And all of a sudden, we get hit with this just truly insane story coming out of Dallas. And I had to spring into action and I threw the PTOCast bat signal up into the sky. And fortunately, the man that's been at the forefront of it all with his boots on the ground, putting in work whose piece at the athletic on Friday afternoon sent seismic shockwaves through the hockey world.

it's Sean Shapiro. Sean, what's going, man? Hey, how's it going? It's, it's been a wild 24 hours here. I'll just say it that way. Yeah. Well, I feel like, you know, not to equate the two things, but the two times I've had you on the show, I remember the first time you had, like just had a kid and you're super busy, but we kind of squeezed this podcast into making work. And now around the holidays, like I said, I wasn't expecting to do the show, but it just kind of came out of nowhere. So I guess, you know, both times we've done these shows, it's been under interesting circumstances, but there's definitely a lot to talk about with the Stars team. Yeah, I think the last time we were on, we were talking quite a bit about the fallout from the Carlson, them not trade, not being willing to trade for Carlson to win at Pimenekev and Hachkin. So, yeah, it's, I guess every five, six months, something really big happens, and the stars take top headlines. Well, listen, I mean, part of what makes this story obviously just so wild is, from what I gather, at least, and you're going to fill me in on this in the second, much more closely since you're much more familiarized with the situation. But from what I gather, the high ups with the stars really wanted to get this message out there. It's not like it was one of those things where, you know, sometimes we see this in sports where

something inadvertently gets leaked out, you know, whether it's via text messages or emails or someone records a video that's unsuspecting and it kind of comes out into the mainstream and then people react to it. And it's just like an unfortunate blunder. In this case, it really feels like they went out of their way to send this message. And it was, I don't know if it was necessarily a thing where it was kind of a passionate moment and it just slipped out or how premeditated it was. But, you know, when you get personally the heads up that this is happening, what's going

through your head? Are your eyes just lighting up with the thought of how big of the national story this is really going to be? Yeah. And so, I mean, the whole day on this was fascinating because I had no idea what I was walking into until the actual interview itself. Like Friday, so Friday morning there's a text message. I get a text message that goes to me and two other writers that cover the team saying,

Hey, Jim Lights wants, Jim Lights is a star CEO. Jim Lights wants to talk to you guys at 1215 about midpoint of the season stuff. And that's how it was led into, midpoint of the season stuff. And I was the only one available to be there at 1215. I know he talked to one of the other reporters on the phone a little bit later on Friday during the day. So I go into Jim Lights's office on Friday at 1215, sit down, where exchanging Pleasantry is talking about how.

asking how the holidays were and asking about how Christmas was with the family and everything like that. And then he says, okay, well, first I want to start with, what do you think about our hockey team? And so he asks me, what do I think about the stars? And then about 30 seconds into my answer, he stops me and says, and basically all of a sudden starts going into Jamie Ben and Tyler Sig. And this is one of those situations where I probably chipped two or three times during this interview to make sure we were completely on the record here because this is the type of thing where it's a type of stuff where you hear off the record sometimes and you hear people get pissed off and stuff like that but this was something they wanted on the record they wanted to they wanted to send a message

and wanted to send a shot at two that they're two best players and they went out of their way to do so and not only did not only did i come into his office and and it's there's quite a few things things he said where he's actually he's got he's got he's got he's got a piece of paper with Jamie Ben and Tyler Sagan's scoring totals and where they rank in the league and all of this stuff it was prepared like this was like not this was like a prepared presentation of how bad these two are and then not only to tell me that in that conversation and then after I leave the room to get on the phone and call another reporter to tell them this was I mean this would be like if the senator's Uber video was this I mean this would be like the center's Uber video was something

where the senators film themselves and put it out on purpose. Like, that's what this is like. Yeah, no, I can imagine. You were you just like looking around over your shoulder, like waiting for Ashton Kutcher to come out with the punk cameras and just surprise you because I imagine like it's just such a surreal moment that this is obviously happening because I'm sure on Friday morning when you woke up. You know, it's not necessarily out of nowhere because it did feel like it was bubbling

for a while in Jim Montgomery's comments before the National Predators game, obviously, you know, kind of were very, he was very vocal and adamant about his thoughts about the team's performance and how embarrassing it was and the effort. And even though they got the W that night against Nashville, I mean, it's obviously not ideal expecting a 49 save shutout after, out of your goalie. So it felt like this was coming for a while. But at the same time, it's just so, I guess, rare in hockey that we see in a sport where stuff is kept so close to the vest, usually, that someone goes publicly like this and also is so very, vitriolic towards his own team.

Like it just, I don't know, just reading it, I kept scrolling down, waiting for it to be like, realize it was some sort of a joke or that there was some twist and it just kept going and going. And that was the most mind-blowing part to me. No, and I know I keep, it's something I, when I was the one that was writing it, when I was writing the story, I'm going through. And I read through this three or four times, went through and listened to all those quotes over again.

I mean, this is the type of thing where, like, my editor who said, my editor, when I in this story and basically said, you recorded this interview, right? Because this is the type of thing where we really got to make sure everything is exactly word for word in the quotes and things like that. And I went through, and I was going through all of that where it's one of those things where it's like surreal. It's surreal like, okay, what really just happened right now? And the other thing about it too is the, it's the type of thing where I keep trying to, and I've talked to some of the other people I work with at the athletic, I've been trying to find it. It's not just a hockey thing. Can you, I've been struggling to find another thing in all of professional sports where a

team executive, whether it's football, basketball, or whatever, has gone out of his way to, has gone out of his way to rip a player where he's initiated the meeting. Like we've seen people, we've seen people get caught in a heated moment or we've seen people, things get leaked, but I can't think of any situation in any pro sport where someone's called the meeting to basically, okay, we're going to light a fire. Right. Yeah, I love that when he's like, write that, write that. That was a great part. And poor, you know,

Brad Richie and Gavin Beiruther are probably reading that article going like, hey, why did we get dragged into this? What the hell? Yes, yes. But no, you're right. I mean, especially, I think, just how extreme it is from the perspective that it's not just, you know, if it's one overpaid, underperforming star player

and the GM or the head coach is trying to light a fire under the butt, like that's one thing. We've seen that. But this was such a direct attack at the two guys who are the faces of the franchise and also two guys who have seven or eight years left on their contracts. And it just, it's one of those things. We've seen like irreparable damage done where a superstar gets alienated and would potentially want to get out of town. And we'll talk more about the fallout from the actual player perspective here in a second. But the fact that it's the two guys and that there's such a long-term relationship here brewing and also they've been in Dallas for so long,

wearing stars uniforms, like you put all that together. And I do really think it is a pretty unprecedented moment. I mean, Tyler's saying it has nine years left in Dallas. Yeah. Like he's got an eight-year extension. He's signed. That hasn't even kicked in yet. Yeah.

Has he even kicked in yet. Like, so he's got nine years left in Dallas. Jamie Ben still has seven years left. Like there is not, and it's not like these guys are, it's not like these guys are getting moved. I mean, it's not like the GM is moving these guys either. So it is, this is something where, um, you're, I mean, it would be, and I'm not saying they would ever take shots at Jason Speza, but if say Jason Spez, say he called me in and said, okay, Jason Spezz is terrible,

we'll talk about Jason Spez. Jason Spez is leaving on July 1st. Or Jason Spez is a free agent. Okay, he's gone. That's not that big of a deal. But this is, this is something where you're going after guys who not only are they part of your hockey team and you're part of the core for, they're your core for the next seven, eight years. Jim Lights works on the business side. Tyler Sagan's face is still on the website. Jamie Ben's face is on the arena. This is not just attacking the hockey side.

This is attacking your business side too. And I mean, I guess more people are talking about your team. It's the old, no bad news is all, I mean, what is the, I can't even speak right now, the old cliche for all news is, anyone talking about using good things. Yeah, something about publicity or something. Yeah, something about publicity. But this is not, I mean, this is not. Good publicity. I mean, you have, it sends a bad message to people who are, like, you know what, some people, some more people may tune in tonight to watch the game against Detroit out of curiosity.

Right. But I've also seen people who are season ticket holders who have reacted on Twitter who have said, like, why am I going to spend money for, why am I going to spend money to go watch a team play where it's run by someone like this? Like, it's not, it's not just, it's not just in a question of questioning of pushing and trying to get players. something more on the ice, it also shows a lot about character and what people are actually and what type of people are running the franchise. Well, yeah, and I think when you look at not just hockey, but every sport, like the organizations that are the most well-run and weld machines, it generally, like everyone's kind of pushing and pulling in the same direction and there's this sort of union where it's a trickle-down effect generally from the ownership where they don't meddle and they get out of the way and then they let the GM or the president do their thing. And then that goes down to a share to plan with the coach and the coach executes it and directs that.

plans for players and it's this whole formula whereas with this situation like part of what's weird about it is the person that did step out to make these comments like do you think that if it had been the actual owner himself or if it had been um either the head coach or jim nil the gm do you think it would have been received differently it just feels like we hadn't really heard that much from jim lights at least on a national level i'm not sure how it is locally there but i think that was kind of the surprising thing that took people by surprise well i think i think it's i think i think i want to this is something the, this is something the owner wanted to say, but I think it's, it's all, this is all calculated.

This is, this is, having Jim Lights do it gives the owner the slight, the slight, well, it's clearly, it came from the owner. It gives him the slight distance, right? Well, the owner gets reference with the text messages at the top of the story. Oh, yeah, yeah, easily, easily. But I don't, and I, and that's the, and that's something where, but he still gets slight distance since the word for word quote is not from him. However, it still came from the owner.

The other thing that's fascinating, I just haven't been able to, it's just been, it feels, it's not just a blind side to everyone who saw my tweet yesterday. It was a blind side to people in the organization, too, because Jim Montgomery had no idea that this was coming. I talked to Jim, we talked to Jim Montgomery this morning, and I asked him, we asked him if he knew this was coming. He said, no. And then after the scrum ended, I talked to him a little about it. and he asked me if I was as shell-shocked about it as he was. Like, it's something where he had, he had no idea this was coming.

I haven't been able to, we haven't been able to get a hold of Jim Nill during this time. And now this, and this clearly does not come from the Jim Nill playbook. I mean, Jim Nill is the person who, even when the stars are in, we're in on the Carlson, Carlson trade and things like that, Jim's the type of person who wouldn't even comment on stuff like that. And so it's the type of thing where, he doesn't, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, which leads me to believe that Jim Nill really had nothing to do with this. This came straight from the owner getting angry and decided, okay, this is what I'm going to do. Because if Jim Nill, if Jim Nill is behind this,

it's way out of character for him. If, uh, and so it, this came more so from, okay, the owner's pissed. The owner wants something done. And so he's going to send his, his best, the best disciple to do it. Well, and that kind of speaks to what I'm talking about there with like, it's a problem. It seems like a more deep-rooted issue where if the GM really isn't part of this discussion, and I'm sure this is out of nowhere, obviously, with the coach's comments and everything, regardless of what they're saying publicly, like, it's pretty clear that everyone's in the same page here. But, you know, if they're going over Jim Nill's head to release this publicly, like, imagine putting yourself in Jim Nill's shoes and you're opening up your secret Twitter with, you know, some probably hidden username and you're opening it up, and you're all of a sudden seeing this, everyone's blowing up and talking about it.

you're just like, oh my God, like how do I rectify the situation? Because obviously, I imagine you're instantly contacting the players themselves and trying to mend bridges or at least kind of smoothen the impact of this. So yeah, it's all of it, like from all these angles is just, it's such an interesting dynamic to unpack. And I did want to go, like, I want to talk about it from a team perspective. And then from Ben and Sagan individually and, you know, from the team here, I mean, they're currently sitting in a wildcard spot, though I'd say their spot there

is pretty tenuous. I mean, how would you view the team's performance this year? Just because, you know, from a statistical perspective, I mean, 27th and shot attempts, 25th and shots on goal, they have a negative goal differential. They're 21st and expected goals. Like, this is all stuff where they're basically being saved by the fact that they have the second best goal-tending in the league this year, which I think is a bit of a surprise and a testament to how good Ben Bishop's been when he's been healthy in some of these performances

by Hude Oben. But otherwise, it is a very underwhelming performance from a team that, you know, we hadn't seen Jim Montgomery at this level, but I remember when you and I were talking about him in the preseason, we were pretty glowing and sort of optimistic, I guess, at least cautiously, about the direction the team was headed in and some of his comments about how they wanted to play and sort of recapturing that glory they had during those years where they were one of the most high octane offenses in the league. And it just hasn't really been that this year. I mean, if anything, they've been playing slower than they were under Ken Hitchcock last year, which is hard to believe. Yeah, they are a A mediocre

inconsistent team Which is probably tells you why they should be in the middle of the league They are a team that And we talked about at the beginning of the season There was a lot of bets right There's a lot of bets this team took on guys spanning out There was probably the biggest one is the Valerie Natchushcheon deal Where okay he's going to come back from the KHL

And we're going to, he's going to be a goal score Well, he hasn't scored a goal yet this season And he's he hasn't scored a goal yet this season He's a healthy scratch tonight So they took a lot of bets there. They bet that Matthias Yannmark would step up. They bet that this and that and all these other things would work. And it hasn't happened.

So basically the star's depth has not stepped up. They haven't been able to really create anything more than they have a top line in three third slash fourth lines. That's really what they have. I think you're being generous. I think they have a top line and then they have Rodic Faxo. Yeah, well, yeah, they have the, actually, they have a top line, then they have the foxa line, which is pretty good. Right.

But then other than that, it's a hodgepodge of everything else. And then it's, they actually have a pretty positive story on defense because the fact that they're where they are and goals against, and obviously goal tending goes into huge, and goaltending is the great equalizer and all of this, but one of the reasons it's kind of impressive where they are in goals against because of they've played 12 different defensemen and and if you count Stephen Johns who hasn't played all year they've gone they're they've gone all the way down to the 14th guy on their depth chart and defense so that's a positive thing um and basically just they're they're mediocre team and frustration has grown from

gym lights and tom galardi and everything like that that's jamie ben and tyler sagin aren't doing what Miko Ranton and Gabriel Landisog and Nathan McKinner are doing in Colorado to make what's an average team on the ice look like a good team. Yeah, well, that's the thing that's, it's like if you look at all the numbers, I mean, so when Ben Rajelov and Sagan have played together, it's been, you know, it's under 300 minutes, 5-15 because they have tried some different combinations and Radgillow's missed some time, but they're outscoring teams 20 to 8 at 5-1-5. Like that's a top top-the-league.

That's right there with the best line combinations of the league. But beyond that, I couldn't find a single line combination that has. played at least 50 minutes together that was a net positive in terms of shot share and that is staggering. There isn't even a single sheltered line that is able to tilt the ice at least slightly in their favor when they're out there. And that sort of speaks to that depth issue. And then, you know, you go on down the line and you just look at the draft history of this team. And I think you can count on one hand the number of guys that they've taken that have become NHL regulars, at least for them, pretty much in the past decades since they found Jamie Ben in

the fourth or fifth round or wherever they wound up drafting him. And then that speaks to the bigger issue of sort of the lack of depth and how much they're relying on these top guys. And I think the actual individual performance of those top two guys that got highlighted in Jim, Jim Lights rant, you know, they definitely could be better. But I think if you're looking at that as the sole reason for this team's struggles, like it seems like you're kind of missing the force for the trees. Yeah, no, you definitely are. They are a, Jamie Ben and Tyler Sagan could mask other issues, but they're not the reason the stars are where they are. They are part of the reason, but there's, there's, there's so many other issues that get glossed over by saying, okay,

it's because they're terrible. Like, the other night when Jim, one, the one comment that's popping in my head is when Jim Lights is talking about watching the Nashville game where they lose 49, where they win two to nothing, but they allow 49 shots. And he's talking about, well, everyone was, everyone was good except for those two. That's not true at all. No, they let up, they let up 49 shots. They didn't let up 49 shots because Jamie Ben and Tyler Sagan were bad. They let up 49 shots because the entire team got cave. in by Nashville. So the entire team needs to be better. And just putting it on these two, you know what, it's, it's not fair to them to, it's not fair to them if you refuse to ignore,

if you refuse to acknowledge the other issues. And that's kind of what this is doing is, okay, we're going to ignore everything else and we're just going to look at just these two when, yeah, these two can be better. But Val Nechuschchkin doesn't have a goal. We bet big on him. Martin Hansel has, Martin Hansel, we put, we put, what is, $5.5 million into the salary cap for him, and we took a gamble on that, and he's only played six games with his in-and-out-back injury.

Like, there's a lot of other things here where, say we take a Chush, and I actually don't mind Blake Como as a third-line player, but you sign Blake Como for $2.9 million or whatever it is. Like, those three guys I just talked about right now, that's $9 million where, you know what, maybe you could have gotten, that's space for someone who's, that's $9 million in theory, maybe you could have done something for, who knows, Jeff Skinner, just things like that, where you could have done something more to help, help these two as

well, where not everything is on them to produce as well. Yeah. No, I mean, I think we highlighted this in that preseason podcast we did where we highlighted, obviously the bets they've made, but also I think we were both a bit puzzled by the fact that they hadn't, you know, done anything really to address on a more solid issue, this depth scoring and these concerns. It was a lot of kind of questionable bets. And I'm not going to defend Valor Nutrujkin, as you're right, he doesn't have a single goal. And obviously, I think if you're evaluating him based on the hype, especially back when he was in a draft prospect, like, he's

clearly not that type of player. I think he's still got some utility as a defensive winger. And he's good at transitioning the puck out of the zone and sort of creating some stuff with his speed. But he's clearly not going to be some sort of offensive catalyst that's going to lead this team in scoring. So, I mean, you have to look elsewhere and considering the bet they did make on them. That's very alarming. And sort of now they're all of a sudden stuck recalibrating on the fly and it's really tough to do so in the NHO when you don't have solid secondary options. So, I mean, it's a whole mess. And listen, we're going to talk about Ben and say again, we're here in a second. I just want to take a quick break here to hear from a sponsor and then we're going to pick

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I know the holiday season's winding up, but that doesn't mean that you need to stop giving gifts to either yourself or your loved ones. It's still a great opportunity to take advantage of Seekek and get tickets to go see your favorite team or go check out a live sporting event and have a fun night out. I actually use Seekek the other day myself. I'm going to go with the World Junior Championships here in Vancouver. I'm going to take a night off from work and just go as a fan and have a couple beers and go watch a game with my friends. and we use Seekkeek to do so, and it was as easy as I say it is. It just took a couple minutes, a couple clicks, and we're good to go. And best of all, as my listener, not only do you get all of those perks,

but you also get $10 off your first Seek purchase. All you have to do to get in on the deal is download the Seekek app and enter the promo code PDO. That's promo code PDO for $10 off your first Seekkeek purchase. Now let's get back to the show. So let's start with SIGGAN here because, you know, Jim Lights refer to sort of the fact that Zigg has hit a lot of posts and crossbars and, you know, he's right. No one, no one has more than eight and he has 11. So it's clear that a bit, you know, a few inches here and there and

all of a sudden his goal totals could look a lot different. I think just in general, I mean, I believe he's shooting 7.5%, which obviously doesn't even include those posts and crossbars because it only counts shots on goal. And if you just kind of prorated to his career norm, which is a slightly over 11%, all of a sudden you're talking about a guy who's got 17 goals, is on a page. for nearly 40 and I don't think anyone is making a big issue of this and now I'm sure you know as Jim lights commented some of it might have to do with where he's shooting the puck from and not getting to the right places and I'm sure there's a little bit of that but I think we see this time and time again in NHL circles where a guy either shoots higher or lower than we typically expect from him and especially

in a 30, 40 game sample where there's a lot of variability in that all of a sudden it can lead us to make extreme judgments and I just having watch of stars I don't think that a lack of effort or a lack of the puck from the right spots is the reason why Tyler Sagan isn't amongst the league leaders and scoring. If he goes on a run here to where he averages a goal game over the next 10 games, I wouldn't be surprised at all. And I don't think it's going to be a fire lit under his butt. I think it's just going to be how this stuff typically works with goal scores. I don't know. Have you seen anything from watching them that the numbers aren't necessarily capturing? Yeah. There's a couple things where I think Tyler can be better. Now, when I say there's a couple

areas where he can fitter. And I think those are, there's just, there's just some things where he can do. But it's not in the goal scoring area, actually. Like, I think there's certain things he can do a little bit better in the defensive zone. There's something, there's just some little awareness things that may be slightly off. But those aren't things that would lead me to ever be to go to a Jim Lights level of talking about how poorly he's playing. Those are types of things, those are the type of things where I look at and say, okay, he's in year one under Jim Montgomery, and he's still learning how Jim Montgomery wants them to play. So that's still okay.

I'm fine with that. From the goals of my perspective, he's hit 11 posts. He's got, he's been, he's been extremely unlucky. Yeah, I mean, he's like 150 shots so far or something, which is amongst the leader.

Yeah, yeah. He's creating chances. He's doing all of that. Or could he, could he get into the dirty areas a little bit more? Sure, a little bit. But he also has the shot where he is a threat from where he's been hitting posts

from the circles and things like that. So I don't have a problem as much with him shooting. I just, I think, as you said, this is kind of, this is kind of an overreaction to him being extremely unlucky with things. And the other thing, and maybe this is just something he has to deal with emotionally is occasionally he hits post. And sometimes he gets down a little bit. You see when he hits a post. So maybe, maybe that's something as well, where it's just, okay, we want to see a better, if you're, if you hit the post, let's not see the slump on the shoulders. let's not worry about it. Maybe that's something that needs to be fixed. But overall, Tyler Sagan isn't,

Tyler Sagan isn't really the issue. His point total is, yes, they can be better. And there's certain little things you can do with details and stuff like that. But it's not nearly as bad as it's getting painted because of this. And I mean, as you said, the other numbers, the other numbers look good. The stars are much better hockey team when he's on the end. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, definitely there's without question. I will say, I think both Ben and Sagan, and especially I bring this up for Sagan because, you know, earlier in his career, especially back in Boston, there was a lot of questions that I think were overborne considering his age and just how hockey typical he works, that, you know, he was immature or whatever, and his priorities. And I think the fact that he's handled this as gracefully

as he has, like all the comments that I read from both him and Jamie Ben have been, I think, handled, you know, expertly. And listen, they had a full day to sort of gather their thoughts and probably run this by their people and not necessarily be shooting from the hip, but it would have been very easy to turn this into a, and we'll still see it might happen down the road, but to turn this into an even worse situation where they really kind of, you know, pour gasoline on the fire. And if anything, they kind of, I thought both defused it a little bit today with their comments or they were both like, listen, we both know we need to be better. We're not going to comment on on the story itself. And they sort of played it off like that. And it's certainly not the last they're going to hear of it,

but I do think they handled it very well. Well, and let me, to touch a little bit more on Tyler specifically, one thing that he's someone who we may have touched on this when we talked back in August, but he's someone who, when he got ran out of Boston, there was all this whole reputation and everything like that. And I guarantee you there were people who saw my story yesterday. He said, oh, that's just Tyler Sagan. And that's, and Tim Lites did him a huge disservice because of that, because Tyler is one of the guys who actually, he gets it.

That's the other thing, is Sagan actually gets it. He's the most involved player in the community, and obviously getting involved in the community he doesn't equate to putting pucks on the net, but he's one of the most involved players in the community. He brings kids out to games all the time. He actually understands that there's a role as a hockey player outside of playing on the ice as well. And with what happened yesterday,

he got painted again as a little bit as a problem child, which is unfair to him because he hasn't been that since he's been in Dallas. He's been a leader. He's helped younger players. He's been a guy who has done everything else outside the rank. And he did, he handled everything, he handled everything really well today. They really could have, they really could have poured gasoline on the fire. They really could have made it a lot worse.

They could have pushed it further. And even in their non-public comments, I talked to both Jamie and Tyler separately. That was, they talked to me and I have a huge amount of respect for both of them because they both talked to me about how they respected what I had to do too, which I actually give them a huge credit for that. because I easily could have gotten the FU treatment from them because I was the owner wrote the story and I didn't get that. And so I give them both a lot of credit for that. Yeah, you didn't get shot as the messenger. Yes.

Well, yeah, so, I mean, I think both you and I are both in agreement that Sagan's going to be fine. Like, I think if he keeps playing this way, the goals will eventually come. I think with Ben, not necessarily this year, but, you know, if you're just looking at this from a long-term perspective on how this is going to shake out and how the star team's going to be built and what they can do, I mean, you know, with Sagan, we mentioned he's got that eight year $78 million contract that's kicking in this summer. And I think he's a perfectly fine bet to keep being amongst the league leaders and scores for at least the next

handful of years with Ben. I'm a little bit worried. I think there are some red flags in his underlying performance. I mean, the counting stats are going to be there. Like he's going to flirt with 30, 35 goals and get his points just because he's still an elite finisher and he's still in a great spot playing a lot of minutes. But I think, you know, if you just look at sort of the shot rates a bit down. He's definitely drawing fewer penalties and taking many more, which is kind of typically assigned to me that a forward is slowing down a little bit physically. And it would make sense with his playing style and the type of body he has and the wear and tear that he might not age as gracefully as some other players. But, you know, it's still, I think, a bit overgrown considering he's not even

30 yet. But just if you're looking down the line and the fact that, you know, they're paying him 13 million this year, 13 million again next year, and he's got six years left at a 9.5 million annual salary, like it seems crazy to say because he has been the face of the franchise and he's met so much to the Dallas Stars organization and he's still considered to be an elite player but would if you're picking between one of the two to shake this up or if there is going to be a fallout from this like it does seem like potentially part of with Jamie Ben would be a more calculated move from a star's perspective I don't know like what do you think about that 100%. I mean it's that's the that's exactly I've entered this. Jamie is,

Jamie Ben is, I don't know how many stars games you watch, but when's the last time you watched a game where Jamie Ben has has gone into this mode where the stars aren't going to lose tonight? Because that's something we used to see. The stars would be,

the stars in the 2000, the year he won the Art Ross, the year he, the year the stars are the best record in the Western Conference, Jamie Ben would enter this zone where I'm going, the team is not going to lose tonight.

And I'm going to be reason why. And he would, he could do it for a full game. He would be it for his full 20, 22 minutes. He was the best player on the ice. The other team took notice and everyone in the arena realized, okay, Jamie Ben's taking over this game. I have, and I watch every star's game. I haven't seen him do that for a full game in two years now. I mean, he, there are, there are stretches. He scored an overtime goal and scored an overtime goal in Vancouver, where he was, where the stars won in Vancouver. And he was, he took over. And, but he took over. And, but he took over and overtime in the third period.

There's other stretches where you've seen him take over for shifts, but he doesn't take games over anymore, and that's the player that people, the stars keep hoping he's going to be, and he hasn't done it in really two years. I mean, maybe there's one last year that I'm missing, but I haven't seen him take over games

and basically go into that stars, everyone liked using the word beast mode about him. So I've gone into that beast mode where this is, this is a game that belongs to Jamie Ben. And we just, we haven't seen it. And to think that he hasn't done it for two years, to think that it's now going to come back, that seems kind of foolhearted, isn't it? Yeah, it does.

I think he definitely still has those kind of glimpses in those moments. And you see it every once in a while, but definitely at his apex, he was sort of this like unparalleled freight train or locomotive where guys were just draped all over him. And he was carrying guys around the ice and taking over games and really physically, oh, kind of like an Alex Ovetchen, just kind of physically, leaving his imprint on the game and in a functional sense, not just throwing his body around for no reason, but really dominating the game.

And we don't see that anymore. And you're right, I think with all the nagging injuries he's had and sort of, you know, you mentioned guys draped all over him. That adds to the extra miles and wear and terror in the body. Like it's, I think you can't just evaluate the games he's actually played in a star's uniform.

You need to add on a little bit more just based on the brand of hockey he has played in those games. And I think expecting that to come back full time is, another bet that the stars will probably lose and I imagine that it must be tough to emotionally distance yourself from it because of what he has meant to organization but I think in hockey circles

people still think of him as being that Jamie Ben that he once was when he was winning the Hart Ross and when he was at the peak of his game and if you could get another team to potentially bite on that and not just take on his contract but actually pay you with valuable assets back in return like I would think long and hard about that and the window to do so might be coming to a close pretty soon based on the trajectory he's been on.

Oh, yeah, realistically, if it was going to happen, it's not like you're going to be able to, you're not going to be able to fool someone next year even. Like, it's the type of thing where if the stars are considered, okay, we're going to move Jamie Bennett. And obviously that's the type of trade that requires so many moving parts between no move clauses and getting cap to work and everything like that. But he's at a point right now in his career where if he's only going to kind of stay where he is or get worse, you're not going to be able to sell anyone else on that in a year or so. So it is the time that if you were to look down that path, okay, this is when the stars would have to look into it. It doesn't seem, it's one of those things that doesn't ever seem likely that'll happen, especially with how the stars have felt about Jamie Ben.

I know, for example, at one point, maybe two, I'm trying to go off the, during Lindy Ruff's final season, I remember, I remember basically having a conversation with someone in the organization where only person untouchable in this organization is number 14. That's the only person who's untouchable. Not just, and they weren't just talking about players. They're talking about coaches and management and everything. 14 is the only one that's untouchable. Now, obviously, yesterday's comments come straight from the owner too. That's not the case anymore. it'd be very hard to happen, but you know what? It's, if there weren't, I also wouldn't be shocked if 15 or 16 other GMs called Jim Nill today just out of, just say, hey, Jim, how you doing? Well, no, and I didn't see that.

I mean, obviously fans aren't, fans aren't necessarily the most, the best litmus test for this. But, like, I was reading some of the comments on your thread when you tweeted out the story yesterday. And there was a lot of people saying, like, oh, any team would love to have these two guys. and obviously in a vacuum, that's true. Like, if you add Jamie Ben to your team right now without sacrificing anything of it and not taking into account as cap hit, I'm sure your team will be better off for it. But I do think, especially with this style of play,

and as we get towards the trade deadline and with the postseason around the corner, like he does profile as the type of player that a team could talk themselves into potentially recapturing that glory and being even more sort of dominant or valuable during a long playoff run. And I think that's a distinct possibility. So I don't know. It's obviously very tough, and obviously it only takes the one team to talk themselves into it and pay the type of price that would lure him out of Dallas. But I think that's where the conversation starts.

I think if you're looking at it right now, I mean, no players untouchable, but if there is anyone, it starts with Tyler Say Yan and Jamie Ben is lower on the rung right now. Oh, yeah. I mean, the only really in the Stars organization, you talk about untouchable players. It's the first one is, because you and I did a whole podcast about this, Miro H-Hiken is number one on the untouchable list. Right. But after that, yeah, it's Tyler Sagan, and then Jamie Ben is not as high as he clearly used to be. He is at a, it's interesting, too, because he's also a player to, we get really attached to fans, fans get really attached to what a captain does and his role and everything like that. And also getting excited about what they did.

because, I mean, Jamie Ben had some of his best years, some of his best years early on when the stars had no money. The stars were bankrupt. And he was very good as a 20, 21-year-old. And people remember that. And that's something that it sucks that those years for him were spent when the stars had no money and really couldn't build a team around him. The stars are now at the point where another old probably baseball cliche,

I'm not sure who said it, where it's the type of thing where you sell. a year too early than a year too late, right? And maybe that's something you have to look at if you're the stars, just because this contract isn't going to age well. We know that. Even with the cap going up, this contract isn't going to age well. And it's one that having an executive say that you're terrible doesn't all of a sudden make you five years younger.

Well, that's the thing I think also if there was a plan to trade him. I imagine GMs are probably doing their due diligence as they regularly do and are reaching out to Jim Nell right now and seeing what's going on there. But if there is a plan, an internal plan to potentially test the market or see what you can get for a guy like Jamie Ben, those types of comments coming from ownership are probably not a good way to build up a market. Like it seems like you're not necessarily the teams would be scared off by it, but you're clearly losing a bit of your leverage if you make it clear that you're incredibly unhappy with a player's performance. It's not like you're selling him at his absolute highest.

It does make it easier for him to waive a no move clause, though. Right. Yes. I guess that is definitely true. There's a component to that as well. That is, now, I don't think this, I really don't think this is, this, this was a, this, I don't think this was statements to get Jamie Ben to wave his no move clause. But yes, this doesn't help his overall value or how other people view him. But if all of a sudden it came time, we're going to trade Jamie Ben.

It's easier to be traded. It's easier to accept a move when you feel like they're trying to push you out and you feel like you're just going to be told that. you're terrible every time you play. Certainly. All right, let's take a quick break here. One more one and then we're going to end this conversation, okay? I wanted to quickly tell you about Fandul, who's also sponsoring today's episode of the HockeyPedio cast this season, for those of you that haven't heard or noticed, we've partnered with them

and I'm doing usually one daily contest a week where I set it up for, you know, the first 20 listeners that sign up. And for those you that haven't played, you just pick a lineup based on the players who are playing that give a night slate of games and go up against each other and usually it's for a small sum of money we do like five bucks or something and so it's mostly just bragging rights and kind of competition and it makes the games more fun to watch when you have a rooting interest so for those of you to listen to one of the most recent shows that I did with robizola you've heard about the ups and downs and the rollercoaster nature of it and how I will never be able to trust again

because of Dominic Simone but that's kind of the the beauty of daily fantasy um so yeah go to fandal dot com slash pdo and let them know we sent you and they'll give you five dollars to play with kind of just a bit of a starter pack to Sweden the pot and give you some extra money to play around with and get your feet wet. So hopefully I see you at these contests are running and feel free to experiment and try out there with your hand at various other things. I know that a lot of you play fantasy football and now that most season long leagues are done as we're heading towards week 17 in the playoffs. a Fandul will be hosting contests regardless. So, you know, Daily Fantasy is a good way to kind of keep those fantasy juices going and still get the rush of it.

Wouldn't even though your league's over. So, yeah, just go to Fanul.com slash PDO, let them know we sent you. And hopefully I'll see you guys there when we do these contests. And with that, let's get back to the rest of the podcast with Sean Shapiro. One final thing, you did mention Mira Heiskin in there and sort of how he's top the list of the untouchables on the stars. And you and I, I recommend people go back and listen, although it's obviously a big. data now, but we really got into him and sort of how he profiles as a player and what to expect from him. And now that we have seen about 40 games worth of him, it's interesting because I think

that overall, I'd say the stars are vindicated for how heavily they backed him and sort of held him up on a pedestal before he'd ever played an HL game because he's looked so slick with the puck and he looks like he really could be something of a transcendent player on that blue line. And at the same time, he's had a very, you know, tricky season so far because with the Klingberg injury, I think he was asked to do a bit too much too early. And, you know, that combination with him and S. Lendell really got caved in. I believe they had like a 41% expected goal or something together. And they were playing heavy minutes against other team's best players with no one really

behind them. And it was a tough position to put him into. But he has been playing a ton. and that doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, he's going to be great. But if you look at sort of the historical precedent for a guy who's still 19 years old play in the types of minutes he has in the position, it's typically meant that, you know, that guy's going to wind up having a pretty great career and be in the Norris conversation and wind up doing big things.

So I think there's a lot of positives at the same time, just purely in terms of the actual numbers this year, it hasn't necessarily been as great as sort of maybe his highlights or goal totals would indicate. Yeah, I agree with that. And, I mean, obviously, we still have to remember that he's a 19-year-old kid. And that's something, too, where, and I think his underlying numbers, they would definitely be better if the stars didn't go 16 games missing John Klingberg. Yes.

And they'd also be much, they'd also, they'd also be, his numbers would also be a lot better if when John Klingberg's healthy, his partner wasn't Roman Polack. Yep, that does not help. Yep. And so, I mean, the fact to that. And that's something where I think the one thing that we talk a lot about Star's injuries on defense and stuff like that. And I actually think a, in theory, a Star's second pairing of Miro Hedishkin and

if Stephen Johns was healthy and was able to play, like that's a pairing that I think would have been really good had they been allowed to play together from the start of the season and things like that. So I think there's some underlying reasons for his numbers not being the estimated goals and everything for those numbers not being where it needs to be or not needs to be where it could be. I also think it's kind of a testament that it's where it is because in theory it could have been a lot worse. But just that's the other thing. Like with when Klingberg's injury happened and how things were going, things really could have caved in on Dallas completely.

We wouldn't have been having Jim Lights talking about Ben and Sagan here December 30th. They would have been, they would have been taking, they would have been yelling at him back in November. Because it really could have been a lot worse. that's amazing to think about because I mean they've got Taylor Fadone playing in the lineup tonight and he's been playing well but Taylor Ferdin was a vet scratch in the AHAL in Rochester this season

like that's that's where this defense is and he's and Haitian's done such a good job of being able to help things stay afloat or at least like tread water slightly I'd really like to I'm really interested to see how he grows

and how he is now able to kind of get going with Klingberg back at full speed and now that he'll have 40 games under his belt. I think he could be really, really good in the second half of the season. He's already been really good for a 19-year-old. I agree. Yeah, no, he definitely passes the eye test. I think, you know, typically we see young defensemen kind of gradually get ramped up

in terms of their usage and what they're exposed to. And I think even with, I think there's going to be a fascinating conversation between him and Rosmas Dahlian in terms of who's the best rookie defenseman and also how their careers are going to turn out. And even with him, we see that, you know, he's slowly, Phil Housy's been gradually giving him more and more and ramping up his minutes. And with Heiskenet, I'm sure that was the plan. And we saw early in the year, he was, there was a lot of games where he was playing 19, 20, maybe even 21 minutes.

And then all of a sudden, with Klingberg out, which is kind of out of necessity, because this is a team that is still competing for a playoffs. But all of a sudden, he's the best option left available. And all of a sudden, he's playing 23, 24, 25 minutes. And that is an entirely different animal to contend with when you're still a 19 year old who's playing your first season in North America. It's not even like he was playing major junior here or college hockey or even in the HAL. Like, you know, he was playing in a pro league last year. and he obviously was great, and he was the defenseman of the year there,

and there's a reason why people thought so highly of him, but this is an entirely different beast to contend with if you're a guy like him. Oh, yeah, and then also, he can't hide either. That's the other thing. Or earlier in the season, earlier in the season, yeah, he's a top prospect, he's good. Okay.

Now, Detroit, when Detroit plays their game tonight, obviously they're circling, and when they're looking at the whiteboard before the game, obviously John Klingberg's names get circled, but all of a sudden, okay, we're going to go make sure you're putting that you're hitting Hachkin in at the end of the play. Make sure you're doing all this. All that stuff.

All this stuff where once you, it's good for, it's good for us. Maybe it's good for him to go through it now as a 19 year old because he's learning basically what he's going to have to go through for his entire career where he's going to be targeted. He's going to be, other teams are trying, are going to try and try and beat him and game plan around him.

And it's probably a really good thing for the stars that he's going through it as a 19 year old right now because it's sinker swim and he's been swimming relatively well. Yeah. No, he has. Obviously, context is very important. And the other thing that's interesting, too, and it's just, this doesn't really answer a question they ask,

but it's just, the other thing that I just laugh at, because I watch Heskin and all the time, and he's so impressive to me. He's one of the, he's, and, but I, you can like both him and Erasmus Dahlene. That's the other thing that I just laugh at, because I see people always talk about who's better Dahlene or Hachkin, and all of a sudden it's, I think they're both great,

but all of a sudden it's the thing where if you like one over the other, then you're completely wrong. These are two fun. We got two teenagers playing, two teenagers playing in the NHL right now who could go head to head in this conversation for Best Defensemen in the NHL for five, six years or so. We should enjoy it. Like, it's kind of fun.

It's kind of, it's kind of, I always laugh when I see people talking about who's better. And obviously Dallas people have a defense, Heskin and Buffalo people defend Deline and becomes life or death. And it's like, enjoy both of them. Yeah. No, I mean, we do this all the time as hockey fans. Like it, we kind of artificially create this rivalry that's not really there,

but it just because both guys play the same position and came into the league at the same time. And I guess one guy's finished and one guy's Swedish. And all of a sudden it becomes like a whole thing. And it's okay to appreciate both. I don't think it, you know, giving a glowing review of one of them doesn't all of a sudden mean that the other guy's not as good or he sucks. it's kind of its own individual comment on that player. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I guess, I don't know. Like, is there anything else for the Stars team that we've yet to touch on? Like, I think they're going to be a fascinating team to follow, obviously, with this story that came out, but just because, like, it's pretty clear based on the comments and sort of what we've heard coming out of Dallas, that there really is no appetite, especially with this core and how much money is being dished out to them to miss the playoffs for a third straight year. I think that's kind of viewed as particularly unacceptable if you're running the Dallas

stars. and they're right on the bubble there. I think that the Western Conference has been relatively underwhelming and at least it's opened up for a team like the Stars to, if they get their stuff together, to make a bit of a run. So I'm very curious to see what is going to transpire over the next couple weeks and months leading up to the trade deadline and whether they're going to feel the need or the impetus to make one of those

splash moves that we were kind of waiting for them to make this summer and they never ultimately wound up doing. and I don't think it will evolve trading their young top prospects, but potentially taking on more money or getting creative. I'm very curious to see how they handle it or whether this stuff kind of organically plays out. Yeah, the other thing that's going to be interesting, and Jim Lights kind of alluded to it at the last quote of my story yesterday,

where he said, because of this, we're going to run through another GM. Like, I mean, he basically kind of, and I know people have artificially put Jim Mill on the hot seat and everything like that, and basically he confirmed that, you know what, we miss the playoffs, we may be searching for another GM. Like this is like and and then you see you're getting another GM and then all of a sudden like this is the next 40 games. I mean, yeah, there's what 45 games left in the season.

So the remainder of this season is going to be fascinating for the future state of this franchise because if they, I think if they are able to get into the playoffs, if they're able to get into the playoffs and Jim Montgomery gets them get some to a get some to the first round and Jamie Ben and Tyler Sagan are able to put this behind them. And then maybe you have the opportunity to really add something in the summer with the cap space. Now, you're going to have to sell that. Now, Jim Nill's going to have a tough job of basically selling that prospective free agent of, hey, by the way, don't worry, we'll put a mute on Jim Mites, not Jim Lites.

So that doesn't help any GM with, that's the person who's running the organization right now. But yeah, it'll be, it's going to be really interesting to see how things play out because this is a team that there's some good things to like. There's some fun storylines. There's some that are really fascinating, obviously, what's happened in the past 24 hours. And I don't really know what they're. I mean, we don't really know exactly who they are going to be as a team. We know they're kind of mediocre and inconsistent, but are they mediocre and consistent in the way where, okay, if this, we check this box all of a sudden, you know what they're doing? good? Or are they really mediocre and inconsistent and this is as good as they'll be?

Like, we don't know the answer to that. And I'm fascinated to learn what the actual answer is to that. Well, they've kind of been like the Philadelphia Flyers West. Obviously, they've come at it from a different perspective because their goaltending has actually been really, really good this year. But they've been sort of painfully mediocre where I think part of the frustration is that there are great players in here and they should be better. But for whatever reason the overall package has been woefully underwhelming for a long time now. And it's clear that's led to a lot of this frustration bubbling over. And I don't know, I'm very curious to see how that plays out. We've talked about this mostly from a sort of reporters, journalistic perspective,

where you've been reporting the facts. I haven't really asked you, do you just purely from your own sort of sense of it or what you'd expect, based on all the information you've gathered, do you have a inkling to how this is going to play out the rest of the season with Ben? and say again and sort of how it's going to all be handled? Or do you think it's just one of those things where it's really impossible to predict and we just have to wait to see how it plays out? I mean, it's impossible. It is impossible to predict, but it's the type of thing where I don't see there's not, there's not a middle road here, right? Like, I mean, you basically, when you go through and this type of stuff comes out, it's either going to be great, either Ben and Sagan rally

and all of a sudden Jim Lights is able to pat himself on the back. in his office and he feels happy about it. And the team is able to, the team is able to, say, you know what? We're going to stand up for our guys. We're going to get it done. Or it goes really poorly.

Just things spiral out of control. Like, I'd like to think, I'd like to think just it's going to be, based off how it's been handled so far by the players, I'd like to think it's going to be the more positive answer. And things are going to at least kind of trend forward a little bit. But it's so hard to put a realistic prediction on this. Well, I think either way, we haven't heard the last of the story.

And that means good things for the PDOCAS because we'll hopefully be able to get you back on to dissect however it winds up shaking out. Sean, what are you other than this story, obviously, which I feel like is probably consumed your last 24 hours pretty heavily. What are you working on and where can people check out your work? So Twitter is at Sean Shapiro. the check out the work on the athletic. A couple things coming up. It's kind of funny on the timing of all of this. We just talk about the,

we talk about honesty and openness and everything like that. And one thing that I had been fascinated with this season is Jim Montgomery's how straightforward he is about things. And he is the hockey coach who gives us his lines directly, tells us exactly what he thinks, things like that. And so I've got a story coming up later this week where he and I talked all about how his dad, his dad was actually a only, Olympic boxer, actually an Olympic boxer from Canada, really to help to find him and gave him that no bullshit attitude and everything like that.

And so I've got that coming up this week. And I also have a, if you're Stars fan and you haven't yet, you want to buy someone a holiday gift. I have a book I wrote that came out earlier this year. And 100 things Stars fans should know and do before they die. You can go find that on Amazon or local bookstore. And that's what I'm doing until someone else opens their mouth. You might need to update that book pretty soon here. exactly

all right shot well I appreciate you taking the time during this busy part of the season and thank you for answering the bat signal and we'll chat with you soon hey I think on I think on. Cheers.

Videocast with Dimitri Filipovich follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovic and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockey pdocast Thank you.