The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 276: Nipples, Steaks, and Trades

Episode Date: February 6, 2019

Alex Prewitt joins the show to discuss a variety of topics. They include: 1:45 Jake Muzzin on the Leafs, and the Kings rebuild 12:35 What are the Panthers clearing cap space for? 25:40 Winners and losers of the Auston Matthews extension 33:30 Hanging out with Evgeny Kuznetsov 47:30 Seeing how the Lightning make their sausage Sponsoring today’s show is SeatGeek, which is making it easier than ever before to buy and sell sports and concert tickets. They’re giving our listeners a $10 rebate off of their first purchase. All you have to do is download the free SeatGeek app and enter the promo code PDO to get started. A reminder that we’re hosting a daily fantasy listener league contest over at FanDuel every Thursday this season. While you wait for the next opportunity to play to come around, go over to fanduel.com/PDO and tell them we’ve sent you. They’ll hook you up with a bonus $5 to play with after your first deposit, which will surely come in handy throughout the year. See you there! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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And joining me is my good buddy, Alex Prude. I think it's the, oh, no, it isn't the first time I've had you on this year. I think I had you on a couple weeks into the season. I remember we did like some early season in superlilatives. So the second time, you're literally the only person I use Skype with. So I think it was like October. Yeah. Because that was the last Skype call I made before I logged in for this.

Oh, I use Skype for pretty much all of my episodes. So I'm a frequent Skype user. So do I. If Skype wants to become a sponsor to the HockeyPedia cast, I feel like that would be some good brand synergy. Ooh, that'd be a good one. So, Alex, I decided to have you on because obviously, well, I wanted to have you on a couple weeks ago when you put out your Evgeny Kuznetself feature,

and we're going to get into that. We're going to talk about this Tandle Bay Lightning feature that you have coming out on Wednesday. We're recording this on a Tuesday afternoon, and you've been kind enough to send me a sneak peek of it, so I've gotten a chance to read it before others have, and it's one of the many perks. of doing this podcast is getting sneak previews like that. I don't know why you want to suffer yourself that early.

Oh, I loved it. I really enjoyed it. I think it was really well done, and I'm looking forward to diving into it with you. But before we get into that, since I've last recorded, there have been some transactions in the NHL, a couple trades, a big signing. And I figured we'd get into that a little bit before we kind of took a bigger picture of you of some of the stories you've written in the past. You're not contractually obligated to lead off with Toronto anymore, are you, though?

No, I'm not. I can do whatever I want. I make the rules. But. But. Conveniently enough. Yes. It's funny.

It's one of the jokes is like, one of the Twitter jokes is how does this affect the Leafs when it's like some random thing that happens to like the Columbus Blue Jack Jacks? But in this case, the Austin Matthews extension and the Jake Muzzin trade. Yeah, exactly. How does it affect the Leafs? Okay, let's take this stuff in chronological order. I feel like the Jake Muzzin trade happens so long ago now, but I haven't really done a show since

then, so I haven't really talked about it in this platform. but let's get into that a little bit because obviously whenever you have a trade like that where it's like two teams that are very clearly going in opposite directions and you have a current contributor going one way and then a package of prospects and picks going the other way you know I guess it's all relative in terms of expectations and sort of what the two teams are looking for but this struck me as one of those trades that made a ton of sense for both teams or both considering the directions they are headed in as a franchise like improved based on what they're looking for from the trade.

Yeah, I don't have a heck of a lot to say about this trade. L.A. got what, probably what was a good package, I imagine, for a guy like Jake Muzzin, kind of signal the start of the full fire sale. I guess Tanner Pearson was kind of the first shot, but this one really digs into the core a little bit more. And then, yeah, for the least, I mean, you get cost control for the rest of this year and then in the next year, which obviously is going to help when you're doing the Matthews trade, which I'm we're going to get to, and then Marner, whenever that comes. And then you've got to feel like at the end of that,

when he's going to be in his early 30s, you probably got to like your chances if you enjoy what he's done there. He's a local kid, and you probably can probably have the upper leg on resigning him there too. So he's looked good so far. I mean, a heck of an ovation he got. Was it last night when he scores? Yep.

Granted, it was against a team that lets everyone score these days. But, yeah, it seems like they've really taken him there. And obviously, they bolster up the blue line. I'm curious, I want to hear what you think, what this means for Boston and Tampa. Right. And I guess to a certain degree, Buffalo, they're kind of in a different boat when it comes to asset management. I mean, at this point, adding. Well, obviously, this is kind of like the first leg of this, like, arms race.

I imagine we're going to see where, regardless of what the standings look like now, it seems pretty clear that we're headed again towards a Boston, Toronto first round matchup, and then the winner of that is going to have Tampa Bay lying in the wings waiting for them. And I imagine, you know, I'm sure the Leafs are going to look to improve their team between now and the trade deadline further, although they're going to kind of have to get creative to do so because they don't have too much flexibility. But we're going to see Boston and Tampa Bay, I'm sure, as well, bringing in guys to improve their teams. I'm not sure we're going to see the lightning make as big scale of a trade as they did with Ryan McDonough last year. But it's going to be fascinating and kind of see them jockeying for position and sort of not taking the regular season for granted because obviously you don't want to diminish what a team like Montreal is done inserting themselves. into this race and so on and so forth.

And the east is pretty tight. But it does feel like even though we're in early February, we kind of can see what the future holds in this Atlantic division. And so it's going to be fascinating to see how these teams balance the present day versus what's to come in late April and early May. Yes. Forgive me, Montreal, for leaving you out. I mean, yeah, they're right there.

They're one. Their point ahead of Boston, I think, with the upper game, not that it really matters at this point. But, yeah, they could add. there's a lot out there. To me, it feels like this is certainly more, I guess, fertile trade deadline lead up than it was in past years. Where, I mean, you look at all the Ottawa guys who are currently unsigned right now, whether they're going to hit the market.

I'm sure we'll get to this, but what is Florida going to do with the two centers they just acquired from Pittsburgh who were expiring? And what direction is Columbus going to go with the guys who say that they don't really want to be there anymore? there's a lot. It's a lot to inquire about if you're one of those teams. And Boston and Tampa certainly have the pieces and I guess the gusto and management to go for it. Well, you're speaking of the fertile trade ground in the market. Like, I can see it from both perspectives, right?

Because on the one hand, in terms of the question of why teams will do wait until the trade deadline to finally make a move, like if you were going to look to improve your team and you have an obvious need, it would make more sense to jump at it now. You get the guy for an extra couple weeks. You let him immerse with the team and get more comfortable. And that would presumably be an advantage to you.

But at the same time, like, the playoff picture is so murky right now because of the loser point and how standing points are divvied out. Like, it feels like there's way more, not necessarily buyers and sellers, but way more teams that are kind of stuck in the middle right now, not sure where they want to go. So I imagine for a lot of these teams, they are going to be waiting to see how the next couple weeks play out to figure out how they want to approach the trade deadline. And I guess the counterpoint to make to that is if you're still unsure at this point, you're probably not a contender, so you may as well be a seller. But yeah, it's always kind of, it's fascinating

to see how teams approach this game of chicken where they're waiting for a market to materialize and waiting to see if the price is either going to drop as teams get desperate or whether teams are going to become so desperate that approaching February 25th, they're going to suddenly overpay just because they feel like it's their last shot to improve their team. very hockey, isn't it, just to be as conservative and wait, way, way, way, wait. And I mean, especially here in the States, juxtapose with what goes on with the NBA, like, Chris Staps, Prozingus is disgruntled one day and then he's out within an hour. He's out by lunch. Right. But to your point about jump on it early, I mean, that's the Jim Rutherford model, right? That's what he's done the past couple years. And it seems to be what he prefers to do and bringing on these guys with a couple weeks to spare and integrating them into the lineup and for the stretch run. Maybe that's a good segue to the other one.

Well, I do want to touch on a little more of this muzzan trade. I think from the King's perspective, like there's not really too much to say they're clearly sellers. And this is one of the first dominoes to fall. And they don't have too many other sort of expendable pieces from the perspective of being appealing to teams because most of their guys are kind of aging veteran players with big price tags and long-term extensions. Yeah, I was going through it.

Like, who would you want? Maybe Jeff Carter with a couple of years left. if you bank on him being healthy or like maybe Alec Martinez. Well, some team may take Hagelin. Yeah. Well, yeah,

he's an expiring. I think he makes sense. Although ultimately, like that's going to be what, like a third or fourth round pick that comes back. Like, it's not going to move the needle either way. I think Martinez is certainly an interesting one.

You know, he's got a reasonable cap hit and he's still on the books moving forward. And so we know how much teams crave defensemen. And I'm sure that he could help someone. Carter's like, I mean, he's clearly falling off a little bit. And I believe he,

left last night's game against the Rangers with a lower leg injury. I'm not sure how serious it is. Oh, did he? I love that story of like a report came out a few weeks ago where it's like teams that are potentially going to be in the market for Jeff Carter are going to want to do their due diligence on whether he'll want to play for them. And it's kind of funny. I guess obviously he has a no move or no trouble. Does that mean talk to the doctors? I don't know what it means. I'm still amazed that Jeff Carter is still, I guess, relatively productive and playing at this point. it felt like he was going to be one of those guys that was not going to age very gracefully, and he's done a lot better than I thought he would,

but it's clear that he's no longer the type of impact player that he was in the past. But, you know, like, I never really talked about the Kings much on this podcast, just because this year there had been such an underwhelming disappointment. I had their play-by-play guy Alex Faust, who does their Fox Sports calls for them. When the Kings were in town here in Vancouver, I think it was like a handful of weeks ago now, I met up with him and we recorded a podcast, but we were doing it in this really loud hotel lobby. And the audio was so bad that it was the first time I've ever recorded a show and decided not to not to publish it just because of something bad. You really deprived your listeners, seriously.

Yeah, no, he was great. He was great. And so I think the listeners was going to have to take my word for it. That it was arguably one of the best pediocats ever done. When this show is over, they're going to have like the PDO cast hidden track, like the deep track cuts that, you know, people are going to say like, oh, yeah, heard the Alex Faust tape before. You're going to have to download it. You're going to have to illegally stream it.

Yeah, I'm going to get it through lime wire. Yeah. Oh, yeah, Kazam, yeah. But from the Leafs perspective, and you mentioned sort of how this impacts the race and what Boston and Tampa Bay are going to do, I think, like, it's always interesting with analysis online because it feels like sometimes people are really slow to adapt. And people, I felt like we're still talking about Jake Muson, the way, we all perceived him, or I guess the analytics community perceived him a couple years ago,

where he was like the most underrated player in the league and everyone loved him and everyone was raising about the question of whether he was actually the King's best defenseman and he was sneakily better than Drew Dowdy. And I think he's fallen off a bit or his play has taken a bit of a step back. But just the fact that he gets to go now and plays in this fun uptempo system with lots of scoring and a bunch of young players, it's such a complete polar opposite to the situation he was in it with LA. And I imagine, um, regardless of, of what he has left in the tank, they're going to squeeze the most out of it, just throwing him, vaulting him back into his playoff race.

And I think the big winner of this trade was actually Morgan Riley, because if you look at the list of people he's played with most commonly, as his defense partners throughout his career, it's been so bleak. And now you get Jake Mousin in there to play with him. It bumps Ron Hainsey down the lineup. And then potentially even next year, you mentioned that Muzin has that extra year left on his deal,

I believe, $4 million, which is a great price for him. You know, Jake Gardner is probably going to leave this free agency, just because he's going to be too, for the Leafs to retain. So that kind of gives them a fallback option there as well. So I really obviously like that move from the Leaves perspective. I'm just not sure how much Jake Muzin himself moves the needle in terms of improving Toronto to the point where you're going to pick them in a series against either Boston or Tampa Bay. Like I like the move from them. I think it was a smart one, and especially to get ahead of it and do it now. But ultimately, I'm not sure how big of a difference

it makes in the grand scheme of things. I was going to say the big winner of all this is Jake Gardner, because now the heat's off and if he wants he can pretend that everyone's still cheering for him. Yeah. They're all just chanting Jake. They are. That's a good point. Well, he's going to be the big winner this summer when he gets paid him for agency,

regardless of how the season ends for him. Ooh, that's a good point. A lot of people are, though. Yeah. That's true. Okay, let's do the Panthers' trade we alluded to. So for those that somehow missed it, It was Nick Bukstad and Jared McCann going up Pittsburgh, and Florida got Derek Brassard,

Riley Shan, both of whom are expiring this summer, and three draft picks. I think it was like a second and two-fourths. That's right. And so obviously, here's the thing. I know that people like to typically see this, and I think it's overvalued as analysis when people go, we're going to have to wait a couple of years to see how this trade is going to play out before we determine winners and losers, because I think that's a false. a lot way to look at. Ultimately, you should be analyzing trades based on the information we have

at the time the trades were made. At the same time for the Panthers, like, it's so obviously telegraphed that this move was done in largely to create more salary cap space for this summer when they're presumably going to go after Artemi Panarin or Sergey Bobrovsky or both or some other free agent. And so in this case, I am willing to give people a pass when they say we're going to have to wait to see how this plays out because obviously if they land one of those guys, with this extra caps piece they created, then that'll be an entirely different discussion than kind of what they got back for those guys at this point. Yeah, those are the big fish. And look, I think they have a reasonable shot at getting one or both of them. I don't know about

you, but one, culturally, even, there's this big old Russian community down there. I think it's on Fisher Island and in Miami where a bunch of them live or spend the time during the offseason. Dadaunov had a place there for a while, even before he went and went signed there. So I don't know, maybe Dattanoff's becoming the Pied Piper and bringing his buddies down. But yeah, that's what it's all about. I think the draft picks were important to Florida. They're covered, and the miners are kind of barren right now, at least with homegrown talent. They have a bunch of, I think like free agents and such.

But there's that and then flexibility, obviously, for July 1. And I don't know, interesting. I mean, look at a Bustad contract, right? It's one of those escalators that they get. I think it was the first one that they gave out in that long string. of long-term deals that Trochev got, Barkov, Ekblad, Huberto, but Bukest, if I recall, was the first domino to fall. And for a small market team, the increase in salary,

I think it climbs up into the fives over the next couple of years, is a decent chunk of change for a guy that they really couldn't figure out what to do with, or they couldn't really find a home with. I mean, he was riding shotgun with Barkov for a while in Dadenov. he's been the second center, he's been the third center, he's been the third wing, he's been all over the map. And I think that Pittsburgh's going to get a pretty good use out of him. It's kind of funny that they package Brassard and Sheehan.

The two guys, they tried to solve that 3C position wins over the past year or so in order to get the guy. And McCann's a pretty useful bottom six piece with upside on a good contract. So, you know, I like it from Pittsburgh's perspective if they feel in terms of that, you know, Bukstad's going to be a marginal upgrade over Bressard, which clearly that wasn't working out. And for Florida, yeah, I mean, you're going to see what the market's going to bear out for Bressard and she and on for the Tread Day, Lund later this month. But I think it was also a little bit of kind of a heads up to some of the other guys who

were on those long-term deals, like don't get too comfortable if things don't turn around real quick. I think the owner's kind of itching to get going. And they're going to have anywhere between, like, by my math, like 25 and upwards to 50 million dollars in cap space on July 1, depending on how they play this all, which is like, I mean, that's enough to go get yourself a couple, you know, 10 plus million guys if you want and still have left over to round out the edges. Yeah.

Look for them to be big players and, you know, getting this money, Bustad money is not a ton to get off, but it's enough to, it's enough to add up and certainly point to an eventful July 1 for them. Well, yeah, basically, I think what they shed like around, 5 million or something in future cap space. And yeah, it remains to be seen what they're going to use it on. Like I'm very skeptical about the Bobrovsky stuff just because there was that report by Larry Brooks the other day that they're looking to potentially trade for Bobrovsky right

now and then sign them to an eight-year extension. And obviously the idea of giving a 31-year-old goalie, I believe he turns 31 in September, an eight-year deal is very alarming, especially considering, Yeah, with groin issues. Yeah, and the fact that he has not looked very good this year. And that's obviously alarming. And I guess, like, it immediately becomes a prime candidate to be one of the first obvious compliance buyouts if that comes up again. And then you see BA.

And it's, it's like it just seems like a weird way to be approaching using this new cap space that you have. But I think like... Also with two goalies currently under contract for, I think Rhymer's at like three and a half. And the long goes, I've said four and a half for a couple more years. there's like, you've got to figure out something to do with those guys, too. Well, yeah, I presume the Rimer would be included in that potential trade for Borowski. And there have been rumblings that this might be the last season for Longo, which would obviously

raise some recapture penalty concerns for a not, no, not for the Panthers, obviously. But yeah, there's a lot of moving parts. He'll be good in Arizona. Yeah, he'll join that long, long laundry list of greats who have been part of that heralded Arizona Coyotes organization. Yeah, it's, it's, I think Bukstad is, I took, I was surprised by the pushback by this online, actually, because I think assuming the Panthers don't wind up turning around and spending all that money on Sergey Babarovsky, I really like this from their perspective because I think

Bukstad can get overrated a little bit. Like, people still think of him as that, you know, top prospect and big center that he was a couple years ago. But he's only really had the one productive season, and it was last year. so it's kind of recency bias and people are still hanging on to that. But that was like the one. And he was the third fiddle on that top line, wasn't it? Well, exactly.

There was one year he managed to stay healthy. And he was grinding shotgun with Sasha Barkov. And the pushback you get to that is, okay, well, Pittsburgh has guys like Crosby and Malkin and he could presumably play with them and be just as productive. And I was like, okay, that's great. But when you have Crosby and Malkin, one of the big luxuries of that is you don't have to go out and attach a $4 million plus dollar contract to a guy like New York. Stad to play with him because everyone's going to be productive playing with those guys.

So I presume that if you're going out and getting Bukstad or McCann, you're hoping that one of those guys is going to be your answer to the third center spot. And so far Bukstad's playing down the middle with Malkin out, but I'm not sure he's a long-term fit there. So from a penins perspective, like I just, I think they got a bit better because Bressard was clearly having like one of the most detrimental seasons of any skater in the league this season. And I think Brayle Sheand is kind of like a replacement level guy.

So we got a bit better. but considering the price they paid by taking on future money and giving up the draft picks, I feel like they didn't get nearly, they didn't improve nearly as much as they should have based on the price they paid in terms of future assets, right? So it's like, especially for the penguins with how much money they have devoted to Crosby, Malk, and Kessel, Latang, so on and so forth, like that $4 million that they're going to be paying Buxton for the next couple years on their cap is a very important piece of flexibility they potentially could have had to get better

and more creative ways in the future. And instead, they kind of saddled themselves with this contract, and I'm not sure how far it's going to take them. Yeah. Playing with 87 and 71, they tend to make people better, though. So, yeah. But yeah, I think no matter if they're, I don't think Bucastas probably going to reasonably ride shotgun

with Crosby, maybe Malkin. But he's really good to clearing space. He's a big guy. And clearly, Jim Brotherford's trying to craft a little bit of a bigger team. And I think McCann's a pretty useful. piece to have moving forward to, given that he has one more year left, and then you still have his restricted rights.

And clearly, they think he's an upgrade, at least in the bottom six. But, yeah, my sense was that Florida couldn't really get a heck of a lot else for Bustad, but I'm not sure how many other teams called or called, but insisted on, you know, they wanted to retain salary or something. But, yeah, I mean, that's a hefty chunk of change. I don't necessarily think that Florida got, I don't know if it remains to be seen, I guess, if Pittsburgh got

better. I don't think Florida really got worse. And they did a pretty good job accumulating assets. And cut and bait, basically. I mean, look, these are the decisions that are going to have to be made, like, if you're going to jump from, you know, four points out or how many, eight points out of the playoffs to energizing a market that needs a jolt, you're going to have to cut bait with some guys that have been around for a while. And so I'm not sure what that portends for, you know, the rest of the core for guys like

Eklad and Hubert O and Trocheque or whatever, but I don't know. I mean, fresh blood's coming in on July 1. Let's put it that way. Well, yeah, I think the core isn't the problem, obviously, right? It's like if you look around to that roster or not, it's a bit unfair because Vinny Cholchek did miss such a long period of time this year, and he's crucial for them as that second center. But, like, they rely so heavily on their top guys and the supplementary pieces around them

haven't been nearly good enough. And the goaltending this year has struggled as well. Yeah, that's the big reason. the goal-tending too. But I like, I don't know. But is Bobrowski the solution? Well. Is he the solution at eight at whatever you're going to pay him?

Well, that's the thing. I think he's a horrible investment on an eight-year deal. I think potentially next year or the year after or whatever. Like he could certainly make their team better. But yeah, if you're for the price you're going to be paying, I feel like there's smarter ways to go about improving that goal-tending. I don't know. We'll see.

I'm very curious to see also what the market holds for Brassard, because it seems like pretty clear that he'll be gone. he'll be moved again before the trade deadline. And people have noted rightly that he looks very washed up. And I'm not sure if it's injuries based or what is, what, what's going on. But he's been so bad this year in Pittsburgh. At the same time, what I pointed to was like, I think people in the NHL are sometimes really slow to come around to that sort of stuff. And I think Derek Brassard is still a name brand player.

And I imagine that there's going to be a team, whether it's Columbus or someone else that is going to look at him and go, ooh, I'm going to bet on the track record. I think this guy could come in and help our power play. and Florida is still going to be able to get some sort of an asset for him. So that's when I'm talking about it from Pittsburgh's perspective, like I think they got better addition by subtraction, just removing Derek Broussard from their lineup because he'd been that bad this year. But I think that if they had shopped them,

they probably could have gotten something better for him, especially as an expiring deal where you're not having to take on any future money with him. Yeah. I'm kind of out of thoughts about the abused at it and Derek Brassard. This is, yeah, some people are talking about Chris Epps-Prasingis and how it impacts the Dallas Mavericks, and we're out here talking about third and fourth line centers. Yeah, we spent like 20 minutes on Jake Muson and Brousard.

Yes, riveting times. All right, let's take a quick break here to hear from a sponsor, and we're going to talk about some other stuff on that. Sponsoring today's episode of the HockeyPedio cast is Seek. Seek knows that getting tickets online can be far too complicated. With hundreds of websites and varying levels of reliability, it's hard to know who to trust out there. And that's why Seekek's the way to go,

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Well, let's actually talk about a super surnau. Austin Matthews. So he got his extension today and there were a lot of takes online from people. We're there summarizing, but I haven't been online all day. Okay, well, so here's the deal. It was very freeing. Yeah, there's a better way. to spend your day than refreshing your Twitter timeline. But I'll give you the gist of it since I,

unfortunately, did not spend my day doing better things than that. So Matthew signed a five-year deal. It is 58.15 million, so it's an 11.63 cap hit per year. It covers his age 22 to 26 seasons. And I think people were alarmed by the fact that the Leafs didn't really buy UFA years from him. I think they were hoping that it would be an eight-year deal similar to what McDavid had signed, but it's pretty clear that Matthews knows his worth and was looking for the best deal for him. And I think what I come back to with this is I'm happy about this as an observer of the league, just because hopefully it signals a changing of the guard. Like we've seen sort of players taking ownership of the league in terms of showing more personality,

and we're going to talk more about Afghani Kuznetsov and you're going to talk more about of Ganyi Kuznetsov and you wrote about this, but also from a money and financial perspective, like there's always been this NHL hockey culture about how stars are expected to leave money on the table and take less and take home town discounts so that their teams can be better around them. And that's always kind of been an infuriating thing to me because your shelf life hurting money is so short and you should get every single dollar you possibly can, especially, you know, when people take the sides of teams and I get if you're a fan of a team, you want to see more cap space so you can devote it to other players. But it's like when people call a guy like Willie Nealander for holding out greedy because he's looking for more money and they're taking the side of a billionaire that's running the team.

It's so funny to me how people's perspectives are jaded by that. And so I'm happy to see this Matthews extension and hopefully we'll see what it portends for the future. Me too. More free agents, more pitch meetings, more like secret flights across the country to go meet in hotel. rooms and pitch you on slideshows and stuff. It's good for the game. And yeah, I don't know. That's my rant.

I understand the, I guess the gap that can develop when you pay the, and when you have a hard salary cap like the NHL does between the haves and the have-nots or the haves and the have only six-figure salaries. But, I mean, in the long run, it's better to have people like Austin Matthews front and center doing his thing. because it grows the game and then it'll grow the cap and then everyone can get paid

and they can negotiate whatever they want in the next CBA but yeah I'm of the opinion that Austin Matthews and Mitch Marner kind of a... I mean, it feels like the perfect duo for Toronto just to have in that market and to kind of have leading the show for the next

couple years because obviously they're Uber talented but they seem to have the right attitude when it comes to having fun and some of the stuff we'll talk about with Guznetsoff, but just, yeah, being this kind of leading the way as this next generation of stars you want for it to be themselves.

Well, the fascinating thing from a, you know, bigger picture perspective for the league is how much of this, like we've seen this with many of these big contracts in the past, but I believe, like over 90% or whatever, like 54 million of the 58 are signing bonuses for Matthews.

And he's going to make, like 30.4 million in a calendar year from July 1st, 2019 to July 1st, 2020 with those signing bonuses. And it's clear from a player perspective why you do that because you get paid up front. And it obviously makes a ton of sense to get that money. But the league has been very vocal in not appreciating that and not wanting teams and players to be doing that. And so I imagine this is going to be a big sticking point that comes up during the next negotiations for the lockout. I know it's kind of a pretty depressing, somber topic. to get into, especially during the season.

But just remember stuff like this when we come back to that lockout dispute and eventually leads to probably another work stoppage. I'm in for shorter terms to be negotiated, but I don't know how realistic that is. Players like their security and 80-year contracts are being handed out pretty rarely right now. But look, good on Matthews. Sounds like he said that they discussed everything from, what, like three years to all the way up to eight. but I mean the windows now, right?

The clock's set. It's ticking because, you know, if they don't get there, then there's obviously going to be way more questions. But if they do get there, then, I mean, this is the Kane and Taze model, right? Like, didn't they sign five years off their entry together? So I do wonder what this means for Marner. Not so much dollar amount, but term leave.

And, you know, whether this sets the bar that, you know, they're going to sign this together and then re-up and reevaluate at that time. but I think this also aligns with when Neelander's contract is up too. So, yeah, here we go. Buckle up, Toronto. Well, so for this summer and then for the next five, they're going to have Matthews and Tavares down the middle. That's obviously a great way to start building things out.

And I know there's a bunch of panic of, oh, what does this mean for Mitch Martin? Now is he a more eligible candidate for an offer sheet and all this stuff. But like, these are ultimately great problems to have, right? Like, this is where you're trying. Offer sheets are even better. No, but I mean, even from a Leaf's perspective, like, I understand this panic of like, oh my God, now that you devoted this much money to Austin Matthews, what do you do next?

It's like, I don't know. Like this is a good problem to have. Like it's, dude, would you rather save that 11.5 million, 11.6.3 million and not have Austin Matthews because that's the alternative, I guess. Like it's, and it's silly to me because people act like, you know, the Leafs caught kind of hosed here, but it's like the player clearly has the leverage here, even though he is an RFA. And if you don't want to be the team to pay him this, some other team gladly will and that's just the price of doing business and that's what it ultimately boils down to so I don't see what the issue is. Pro labor.

You're pro labor? Yeah, me too. I'm pro labor getting their due. Yeah, yeah, I am as well. And obviously he's a good tweet about billionaires and millionaires today. Yeah. Everybody go check out Demetri's Twitter. That about sums it up.

Yes. And he's worth every penny. I mean, his production obviously, and his first three years in the league has been right up there with McDavid in terms of 5-1-5. and this year's power play production The efficiency that he scores goals with is, it's mind-boggling. Well, that's the thing.

I know you've written quite a bit about, like you wrote about line A shot, and I know you've gotten into this and some of your features in the past. But yeah, just watching him, how him and I guess Philip Forsberg are the two prototypes, but the guy, like how they shoot the puck from these elusive angles where the defensemen and the goalie can't set themselves

and how they still manage to pick the corners and shoot it at peak velocities, even though, like, they're kind of contorting their bodies. It's remarkable. And yeah, just watching the way he operates in the offensive zone is a thing of beauty. And yeah, I'm looking forward to watching that for the next five years in a Leafs uniform. Seems to be a theme with a few of my stories this year.

Like I go because that's off, McKinnon. I kind of have written just about fun guys to watch. Guys with the puck, the way they either, in McKinnon's case, just kind of bull through people or just deadline sprint. and then Kisnetsov and Ikel a little more like wide base and kind of subtle changes in direction. But I don't know, we're in a golden age right now, I think. This is, yeah, it's fun to watch. It is fun to watch.

Do you want to get into Kisnets off now or would you rather do the Tampa Bay Lightning thing? Oh, whatever. We got time for both. We have time for both. We have time for everything. Whatever you want, man. What you pick? You're the guest.

Which one you want to talk about first? Let's go Kuznets off because we just, the one thing I didn't really get into there. was, you mentioned leverage with Matthews, because that's off had a heck of a lot of leverage when he re-signed his contract. Yeah, and I didn't really,

maybe I got into this a little bit. He, turns out he had a, he had like a six-day window or like a week-long window or something where KHL teams were allowed to pitch him. And he said he just shut down his phone and, like, disappeared for that week

because if he heard what they were going to offer, he might have actually thought twice, but if you recall, I think it took him, he signed after July 1, I believe. But as soon as he signed, the caps kind of came. I think Brian McClellan came out and said, yeah, well, you know, we had to pay him on this much. Otherwise, he was going to leave. And I'm not sure how, you know, reasonably close it got, but or how much it was, you know, his agent, rightly,

kind of dangling that as something that could happen. But that's a real thing that, you know, for those guys back there, like you're, you know, you're back home, the squeeze is getting put on you. And I can't blame him if he at least would have listened, but it sounds like he didn't. Yeah, he signed on July 2nd. July 2nd, there you go. Yeah, eight years, 62.4 million. Yeah, and obviously now with the rising cap, that's looking like a pretty good deal for the

capals, right? Like, if you have him locked in at 7.8 million for pretty much the rest of his prime, like he's in a year two of that eight-year deal and he's 26. Like, that's looking pretty good because I, I wouldn't expect him barring some sort of like catastrophic injury or something to fall off, at least until like the final year or two of that deal. So you're having a prime player, one of the best, what, 20 to 25 guys in the league for under 8 million? Like, that's pretty sweet.

Yeah. And also talk about a personality. I mean, he, for those who haven't read it, I basically went to Boston to go spend time with him, which was his suggestion. I had pitched a profile, I think a while back at the start of the, the year and we've been kicking around some ideas and then Sergey Kachar of the PR guy came to me and said well he suggested basketball game like going to a Celtics game he's a big basketball fan and has never been to the garden before um so yeah of course like i knew i mean i've covered abgeny for a while and um his i think it was his first full year in the league was my first year on

the beat um he was like getting scratched in october november and playing on the fourth line and I mean, even the playoffs, I think his linemates were Jason Chimerra and Joel Ward, or at least people of that ilk in that era of the Barry Trots Capitals. And just kind of progress he's made and kind of seeing him not only come out of his shell, like interview-wise, as his English has gotten better. And he's without question one of the funniest interviews in league, for sure, and definitely the most unpredictable, I think. Because he just doesn't care.

He just, he says what he wants and messes with people and kind of the repartee he has with some of the B-writers down there is pretty hilarious to watch. But also kind of on the ice as he's, like, gradually realized how good he is and that he can dominate. And I know it does frustrate the capitals and brass and, you know, Brian McClellan's open about this that he wishes Kuznet Software could turn it on every night. And, you know, I think they tried him at penalty killing earlier and had some grand plans that he was going to, you know, wreak havoc and. get some breakaways. And he did at times, but I think they've maybe ended that experiment a little bit. He's still not great in his defensive zone and can kind of float in and out of

his attention span, kind of floating out of games depending on how often he touches the pie. And like, this is all stuff that he openly talks about. Like when we sat down for dinner and, uh, he ordered about 50,000 calories worth of appetizers. His explanation was it's not April, right? Like, like, he knows.

It's a little like that, um, that kind of apocryphal, feature a story where like if he wanted to he could hit home runs at any time but um because that's i was just saying that he knows when he has to turn it on and you know he and i hung out right before the all-star break so i think after the all-star break was kind of the target point for him but um yeah just to be to be able to see him do try you know things like lacrosse goals and um that spinorama pass he started doing for a while until everyone was start until everyone caught on to it and it showed up in every single scouting report when you're playing the capital so he stopped doing it um you know, that ridiculous short angle goal that he lifted over Henderson's head and just, you know,

hearing some of the crazy things that he tries, kind of giving up the whole story. But, you know, he's like, he's like Malkin and that he'll grab random sticks off the bench and just use them during games, just any left-handed stick just to try it. Or for an entire period earlier this year, he wore Brooks Orpix skates, which were like a size and a half too big, like old, tattered, worn calic, worn down kind of skates. that he had only tried at the morning skate that that morning. Bile accounts has like no routine. He said he stopped watching film of himself a couple years ago because it's,

can I curse on this? Hmm? I can curse on this, right? Oh, absolutely. Oh, okay, cool, cool. His exact quote was, my mind get fucked. That the more he watched film of himself, the more he got in his own head. And obviously, he's at his best when he's free and enjoying himself and like,

flamingo kicking people's sticks out of the way while he's carrying the puck or, obviously that celebration we talked about a lot and kind of his admiration for other leagues where they can be themselves but yeah I don't know I'd been I almost thought that there was everything to write about the guy because he's so open but turns out there was there's a heck well out there yeah he's a breath of fresh air I mean this year he got off of that hot start and people thought or were kind of wondering whether he was going to take his game to an even higher level especially after the postseason he'd had and stepping in for backs when he was out and I mean it feels like he's been disappointing at the same time you look and he's got yeah he hasn't been great i mean but

if you look though he's got 43 points in 46 games so he's hovering around a point of game he he his shooting percentage has been cut in half from what yeah it usually is and he's i mean he's still playing right now with tom wilson and acabrano so i wouldn't say it's like a massive downgrade but he got i guess what you can call it demoted from ovechkins um spot on the top line and and baxter's back there playing with him so like i think ultimately especially now that they got the monkey off their back and they won that cup. Like they're, I don't want to say they're slow playing it or playing their way into it,

but it's clear that like, um, sort of things have shifted a little bit and sort of, um, they're playing, he is playing his way into it. I imagine that he's going to once again be a monster down the stretch and, and the post season.

And he is so fun to watch. I mean, some of the stuff when you're as talented and also as created and gifted as he is, like I imagine sometimes you have to do stuff just to keep yourself engaged or interested because it does come so easy to you. obviously when you try stuff like that, especially in the best league in the world, against the best players in the world, sometimes it's not going to work out, and you might wind up looking a little silly.

But just the fact that he tries some of the stuff he does is I'm always going to be a fan of that, and I wish more guys did that. Just the way he thinks, like he said his dream is to take a referee out to dinner, like when he retires. He said that's the first thing he's going to do when he retires is take a referee out to dinner, like an active referee. Just because apparently he wants to learn, like, why they call what they call and just get inside a referee's head.

I don't know. It's interesting. You never really know where a conversation with him's going to go. Yeah, he's amazing. Yeah, I guess I'm curious to see sort of how, because obviously Obedchkin's still the guy in Washington, and it feels like he forever will be, and Baxter is still really dang good.

But I do wonder, I guess, what, because that sounds like 26 years old right now. I wonder if there is going to be a time where he kind of takes that, takes over that because I know in your piece you wrote about how um especially against the penguins when he scored that uh series clinching goal and overtime it felt like a bit of like a kind of passing of the torch moment but um we're obviously still not there yeah it was a very the symbolism was pretty blatant on that one yes yeah and the celebration after i love how he said his celebration um just like pissed off a certain segment of people and and it's it's awesome i don't I do think there are some good checks on him in Washington.

Like Orpix is a good influence for him. Tom Wilson and I had a little bit of conversation about how, like, Tom, Tom's pretty aware when Kuznetsov's not going that night or when he's not engaged. And Tom needs to ratchet it up a little bit and kind of go get the puck for him, I guess, while Kuznetsoff floats and tries to pick his spots. And I remember Brett Colley, he and I talked when they were in Boston playing. And he kind of made the point, like, do you think what Kuznetsov, you know, the way he acts? which is obviously all great and stuff,

but do you think it would fly in like every dressing room? And obviously he played in Boston. He knows the captain C of Z. You know, it's a good room, I think, for his nets off, in that, you know, the pressure is off him a lot of the time because they have Ovechkin and because they have some of these players

who are more in front of it, you can just, you know, he can be himself. He can pick and choose his spots. Well, I mean, one year, as good as he is, you're going to get away with a lot of antics. Like you mentioned that Bruins room, by all accounts David Patsman acts a bit of a character and obviously

you know Brad Mershine has his share of antics and if you're delivering on the ice I think people are going to look over a lot of those personality quirks or or kind of weird comments. Yeah I think I encourage it regardless that's the best I think that's what Kuznatsoff's all about is yeah so tell me about this hanging out with him you went to the basketball game you guys crushed the steak together uh yeah we went we had a dinner beforehand um and to eat I guess uh That guy has no, he has no diet. He's very Ovechkin-like in that way.

They eat pretty much the same pre-game meal. I know Ovechian got a lot of attention for his chicken parm and spaghetti or whatever, but because I pretty much eats the same thing, like before games. I don't think he has as much Coca-Cola during games as Ovechekin does, but he has some. And the, I probably the best quote he has. I'm not on that green juice diet shit. of something like that. As he's looking over our menu and ordering,

you know, these ridiculous appetizers and stakes. And then we go to the basketball game, and he's a huge NBA fan. He didn't know anything about basketball when he came to the States. But, I mean, he was, like, rattling off guys' salary cap numbers of, you know, not starters on, I think it was Celtics Pacers who were playing. And, like, I mean, he was pretty up to date on everything. And he's like that about a lot of stuff that if he gets into a subject,

he watches a lot of, like, documentaries about other guys. soccer players' lives and stuff. Once he gets into a subject, he gets pretty into it. So that was another interesting part was that he's a very curious mind, you know, wants to sit in on the capsule war room on trade deadline day or on July 1 and just kind of see how that operates and asks a lot of questions. If there's Scott Murray, their goalie coach, it was the same thing with Mitch Korn, their former goalie coach.

You know, I was just kind of asking, like, how do we beat this goalie or, you know, what are his weak spots, that sort of thing. And, you know, those are things that, like, guys like Ovechkin and Oshy do too. but when you package it with kind of the free spirit there, it all adds up to a pretty unique guy. Well, and I imagine this year, compared to some others, might be a busier one in that Capitol's war, right? Like we've heard that they might be getting a low friskey

and making some moves to shake things up just because they have been losing so much lately and they're falling out of it, I guess. I mean, the blue jackets are four, three points behind them. But I guess like the fact that the islanders have been as good as they have been, and for every single week the passes and they're still sitting on top of the Metro Division, I imagine that makes some of these other teams sweat it a little bit because I imagine heading into the year they weren't expecting the Metro Division to be looking the way it is right now.

Yeah, but I mean, what piece do you move out? I guess you try to tinker with your bottom six, maybe just adds him death. I mean, Burkhoffs, he's the obvious one. They've been trying to get rid of him for a while, and it's just pretty clear it's not working out there. But the problem with him is whatever team gets him would have to qualify him at over $3 million, which he's certainly not worth at this point. And maybe you acquire him in bank that you can sign him. You reject the qualifying offer and then you sign him to a short-term deal because of

his value being low. But I'm also not sure what you get in return. If it's picks, I think they would like to get a roster spot out of that. But I don't know. Maybe it's another. Maybe it's kind of one of those like one-for-one specials where both guys in a need a change of scenery. Yeah.

Boy, that's one I was certainly dead wrong on. I thought he was going to, especially what was it like that postseason run maybe two years ago or three years ago. I really thought he was going to take off and become a star in this league. I mean, he's still 23 years old only, so he's still got time. But it looks like it's certainly not going to happen in Washington. I guess just take all of my Berkowski takes and pretend I was talking about Jacob Vrata instead. I remember when I first came on in that beat, it was the big question was, is Kuznets off are at Burkowski going to be their center. I think it was their 3C at the time that they were battling for.

I forget who the second was behind Baxter but yeah, it's kind of interesting to see the gap that's developed. But Burkowski's only 23. He's three years younger than because he's netsoff. He's not off, obviously played in the K for a while.

So if I was a team looking for maybe some middle six upside, I mean, Berkowski's proven that he can hang on a cuff contending team, at least on the third line, at least on an energetic, uptempo third line. So if he fits with your system,

like I would at least put in a call. Yeah, he seems like a good bylaw candidate. just based on the talent alone. Okay, let's wrap this thing up by talking about the lightning. So you got to spend three days with them? Yeah, so this little sausage-making conversation. I also pitched this to a couple of teams. I initially wanted, was curious about the Kings last year

when they hired Pierre Turgeon as offensive coordinator. Yeah, what they called an offensive coordinator. This all kind of started with like the grand premise, which I kind of lay out at the top of the story that like hockey coaches on the one hand, you have to be really extreme micromanagers. Like you got to call out line changes, which is a thing that no other coach really has to do at that kind of speed. You kind of got to think the matchups,

and it requires, I think, accessing a certain part of your brain that's different than most sports. But at the same time, you have to really surrender yourself to the fact that you're coaching the most random game on earth. and coaches themselves are inherently wired as extreme micromanagers. So how do you kind of walk that tightrope? So that was kind of the overarching question I wanted to answer. And that was just kind of an excuse for me to spend three days with Tampa.

So yeah, I got there. This was right before the All-Star break. So it aligned with two games that they had against San Jose. Toronto was first and then San Jose, which, you know, two top five teams at the time. gave me a pretty good window, I think, and how they prepare. So I was there for two game days and then one practice day, pretty much all access with the coaching staff, just kind of hanging out in their room. You know, I'd go linger in the locker room if they were talking to the team, but mostly

just kind of behind the scenes watching them work. They just watch a lot of film. That's kind of what I learned that the average, it's not the first coaching staff I've embedded with, but I don't want to oversell it either. I've done it with Washington and Tampa, or sorry, not Washington and Vegas before this. And what struck me about Tampa was that just kind of how loose they were as a group. It's relatively, half of it's a relatively new staff.

They hired two new guys, Jeff Halper and the former player, and Derek Lalonde, who was the coach of the Iowa Wild last year. And he's kind of climbed the same rungs as John Cooper, started out in Green Bay and worked his way up to the NHL. So, but then the rest of the staff were, I've been there, have been there through the, you know, three conference finals in the past four years. And it's just, so it's understandable why they're so loose because they are familiar with each other. But it was just a very kind of casual, you know, go to the rink, get your work done, very serious while you're there, but also rip on each other mercilessly. And then go out for a beer after.

So very, very interesting window, I think, just to kind of see how it all, how it all work, just to kind of get a sense of the game plan, just from, you know, sunup, 630 a.m. Jeff Halperns there on a game day, you know, watching shifts from the last night and, our two nights ago and, you know, putting in that work all the way to John Cooper having his postgame cup of Cabernet, you know, waxing about the nature of the job at 1230 a.m. So, yeah, a real front-to-to-back look, which I, I personally had an experience before. It was kind of hard to process, or at least synthesized for the story, how much went on and kind of all the action there.

But give it a read. It's on should be on s.i.com, I guess when this podcast comes up. I think it will be. Well, it's interesting because from the one perspective, you can look at it and go, obviously, things are loose and they're having fun when you have a team with Kutrov and Stamkovs and Hedman and Vasilowski and so on and so forth, then you're kind of running away with the president's chauvey here. But at the same time, you know,

On the one hand, it was amazing. You mentioned it in the piece, and I hadn't really even thought about it, but now that I guess Quineville's gone, John Cooper is the longest tenure to coach in the league at six years or whatever, and it speaks to how volatile opposition it is, but also it seems kind of crazy that he has been there for that long at this point. And also that they've kind of, now the capitals have won, they really have sort of taken over the mantle of the team that has these post-season demons

and hasn't gotten over the hump yet, right? Like they made the cup final that one year and lost at a Black Hawk, but it still seems like there's a lot of sort of unfinished business or untapped potential with this current core and with some of the financial decisions they're going to have to make and probably breaking up the team and potentially losing a guy like Tyler Johnson or some other contributor. I think it seems fair to say that this is probably the best incarnation that we're going to see of this team. And so there's so much pressure and so much on the line this year. And with all that postseason baggage, it would be very easy for it to become a bit more of a hostile or untenable situation

where everyone is kind of thinking about that and it leads to a mess in the regular season because you're constantly thinking about the postseason. So the fact that they have been as good as they've been so far this regular season isn't necessarily a given just based on the talent that they have, I guess. Yeah, I will say. I caught him at what, by all accounts,

should have been a pretty relaxing time. It was right before their by week, which fed into the All-Star break. So they were going to be off for like 10 days. Whopping lead on the, you know, 20 points up or whatever on the rest of the Eastern Conference. and nine points up on the entire league and, you know, on pace for the fourth best record of all time.

I think tying one of the 60s-era Canadians. So, you know, kind of puts into respect what they've managed to accomplish so far through, you know, early February now. But you're absolutely right. I mean, points up, right, he's going to get paid and a couple of fringe pieces. And so, you know, they have to rejigger their defense.

I'm at their blue line with, you know, guys like Strawman and Gerardian Coburn up. yeah I mean the windows now they certainly appear to be ready to go I mean they're they're relentless group and the the kind of thesis that Cooper had of John Cooper had of coaching

which I found kind of interesting and maybe this speaks to kind of the randomness of the game that he said the ultimate goal is to get the team to coach itself that like once you know that when you the way that you know that you've kind of succeeded is if the room kind of just does its thing. And you know, you gave him guidance. You pop in and there, but you're, you're almost like a CEO. That's kind of how, that's what struck

me about the way John Cooper kind of operates is he, you know, he floats around the coach's room and ask questions and make sure that everything's running smoothly and, you know, does spot checks on video and make sure that it's, you know, a tight five and the players aren't going to get bored and the relevant clips are in there. You know, goes and gives a pump up speech in the room, but it's only like 30 seconds long. And it's a lot of it is just like kind of, especially when you've been around, like you've been around, like you said, for six years. I mean, the turnover rate, I think it's like 11 out of 31 of the jobs have turned over since last April.

So to have that kind of security and not only that, to have coached a lot of these guys in the minors and to have, you know, growing up with the same core and, you know, your captain, you guys grew up together pretty much in Stamcoast. And I think it breeds a certain comfort level and a certain knowledge in the system. And, like, one thing, I didn't, I don't think I mentioned this in a story, but they just, you know, they went back to their, I think it was the neutral zone system that they ran during 2015 when they made it to the cup final. They had been running, you know, I forget which alignment it was, but they've been running a certain system for the past couple years. And then this year they decided,

all right, we're going to go back to that one. And it was, you know, it was a very short, very flawless installment in training camp. And that's it. Because the guys know it. And, you know, oh, yeah, remember that. Just need a couple reminders. And on you go. And it, you know, it, you know, You know, the later you get in the season, just to have that kind of, I guess, flawless operation is something that I didn't really realize just what all goes into that and how easy it is, just kind of make changes in the process of, you know, for instance, against Toronto, they unveiled, and I wrote about this, they unveiled a new neutral zone set up.

You know, they had on their penalty kill. They had been in a two-two box pretty much the entire year, and then they decided one time to start practicing a 3-1. and try to basically halt Toronto's control zone entries and stand them up a little bit at the blue line at their defensive blue line. And it was something that they only practiced. And, you know, you kind of had the luxury of trying stuff like that when you're that far up in the standings,

but also when you have a coaching staff that's been kind of saying things in the same way and has been, you know, preaching the same things for, what is it, six years now, if you want to try stuff, yeah, it's not that hard. Yeah, it's staggering how good they've been this year, right? Like the, I mean, plus what? They plus 59 goal differential in 52 games. They, uh, in the same number of games played, they've scored 85 more goals than the Los Angeles Kings have.

Like, just like, some of these stats are just, uh, so staggering. And you're right. Like, I'm very fascinated to see, um, during award season, assuming things hold for them now. Like, I guess if the Islanders do make the playoffs or especially if it's through one of the, one one of the three metro spots and not even a wildcard spot they hang on to that i imagine barry trots is going to get a lot of love for the calder just based on that kind of year your one year to the next turn around but with a guy like cooper when when you have so much talent um similar to when the caps i guess like we're at their peak and trots was there it's like it's always tough to know how much

love to give the coach and how much of it is just well you're blessed with this immense roster and it'd be pretty much impossible to mess it up so as long as you kind of just get out of the way and push all the right buttons you're going to be good good to you're going to be good to go. But it's clear that they are, you know, both in terms of roster building through their front office, whether it was from Eiserman or now Julian Brisewell or through the coaching staff, like they've long been considered one of the more progressive or analytically friendly organizations in terms of a lot of the moves they make, both in terms of personnel, but also in terms of, you know, line-up decisions and strategy and so on and so forth. So it's kind of cool to see them optimizing this entire

operation and squeezing the most out of it, even though it'd be pretty hard to mess up just based on the players they have. Yeah, I will say, I feel like I gained a new appreciation for what you kind of glossed over the process of pushing the right buttons. Yeah, yeah, it's an incredible roster that's cap-controlled and set up to succeed for the next however many years and have been for a while now. But at the same time, you know, Cooper described his job as predominantly personality management, you know, making sure that basically all the pieces in the machine are doing the right thing because in such a fluid game like hockey, you know, if one cog breaks, you know, if one cog gets loose or one screw gets loose, then kind of the whole flow can break down.

And then there's this domino effect and on and on it goes. And, you know, how difficult is it just kind of trace the problem back in the first place. But, yeah, it seems to be a lot of, you know, for instance, when I was there, he talked with Stamcoast three times, like on each day, he had like a problem. private meeting with Stamco's. And that seems to be routine, just kind of check up, get the pulse of the locker room, and then kind of use a guy like Stamco's as a conduit to, you know, get his message across. And I know it's like, you know, it's all this like really intangible stuff. And it's, this is probably more pronounced in hockey, I think, than other

sports where, you know, it's easy to, you know, judge a baseball manager on his decisions because the entire game is a series of, you know, of action, of single actions. And you make a shift or you pinch hit a guy or whatever and there's percentages and all that. But hockey's so much more fluid and it seems like at least a slice of the pie that is devoted to kind of

just massaging egos and managing personalities and making sure that guys and sticks are pointed out of their skates are pointed the right way when they're, you know, the weak side winger trying to protect the wall against a low to high, you know, forward a D pass. Like it's just all these little details

that you kind of got to make sure that guys are doing the right thing on, but you're absolutely right. It sure beats the heck out of managing a roster that doesn't have Nikita Kutrov and Victor Hedman and Ryan McDunna and Stephen Samkose. I get a new appreciation for Chernak.

I hadn't seen Chernak a lot. I don't know if you've watched Tampa a lot lately, but man, that guy's good. He's 21. I think they see him as kind of the anchor on the right side there for a while. Well, and it's also amazing to think about how they got him, right? Like that one year where they just weirdly had a bunch of injuries and bottomed out

and missed, well, it didn't bottom out, but they missed the playoffs despite the fact that people had high expectations for him. They just, like, sold Ben Bishop at the deadline, even though they clearly had no long-term plans for him for Chernak, and then, like, L.A., for some reason, traded for him and didn't do anything with it. And then he leaves as a free agent, and it's like, this is a great example of two organizations that are going in completely different directions in terms of how they're approaching, building their teams.

And you're right. I mean, like, I think from a tangible perspective, you had this in your story about, you know, their focus on peppering poxedros. slot and working the middle of the ice. And that is a bit more of a tangible thing because there are rosters out there that have great players, maybe not as many in bulk as the lightning have, but have individual talent that their system isn't optimizing it. Whereas with this lightning team, like, we're just watching their power play and sort of how

well-oiled a machine it is where you're just constantly going east-west with Kutrov and Stamco's back and forth. And you have slot there in a point there in the middle in the slot. Like, they're also strategically actually putting their guys in a position. to succeed to to as opposed to just having this power play where Victor Headman

is taking all the shots from the point. Yeah, I don't think this may be of interest to your listeners. I don't know how much I got into it in the story, but I was kind of struck

by how seamless analytics were kind of integrating the operation to the point where it didn't really feel like, you know, this is like the analytics time. You know, it wasn't like 1 to 2 p.m.

It's like the analytics hour. They're direct, because I forget his name, the director of analytics. He's been there for a while, though. I mean, he comes down between every period from the booth. with Franz G. Jean, the goalie coach.

And, you know, he just kind of waits there. If anybody asks questions, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. You know, he's on hand there. Cooper and the staff, they chart, I think the three stats that they prioritize are 50, 50 battles, turnovers, and scoring chances. And they get kind of a master sheet every day of, you know, where players are and ranked. And I think it's broken down into rates and, you know, battles per 20 minutes or scoring chances four per 20. then they kind of have this whole like master score that can see just like those are I guess indicators

of involvement almost almost proxies for it you know they track zone time percentage zone time there's color-coded charts on their desks you know talk and just it's information that's there I'm not sure how much you know it wasn't necessarily cited it anyway really I think I heard Jeff Halper talking about offensive zone time once on the first day but there wasn't a heck of a lot of you know numbers flying through the air and equations being written on chalkboards but you know it was it was present and it was, you know, it's, it's what analytics is there for, which is just additional information to, um, to either supplement or confirm or encourage further analysis or encourage further attention or to alert you to something that you may not have thought of. Um, it was,

it was refreshing to see that, you know, the best team in the league by a long shot is kind of using it, I think in the right way. Yeah. I think everyone, everyone is at this point, just a matter of, uh, whether you're using it correctly, right? But I, uh, you're thinking of Michael Peterson, uh, is there? Peter said, thank you. Forgive me, Michael. And there is this, he probably is, actually. There is this misconception amongst fans of, like, what the integration of analytics really means. And I think that's the best way to illustrate it is what you said there, where it's like,

you're not necessarily devoting a certain chunk of your day or a certain part of the discussion and, you know, getting all nerdy all of a sudden throwing out a bunch of numbers. Like, you're just, the key is to seamlessly integrate it. And that goes from the staff you have that actually is responsible. responsible for kind of getting all the data and then relaying it in a palatable sense to whether it's the general manager or the coach or whoever that's going to be using that to make their decisions in a seamless manner where all of this stuff is kind of common sense or logical and you want to break down that barrier by just sort of using those quantifiable measures to either validate

a point or dispute it or make you ask different questions and it's clear that the lightning are doing a great job of that. And I thought a great example of that in your story was what they're using in terms of goal tending with a goalie coach and sort of the prep in terms of tendencies and different measures beyond just looking at a goalie's goals against the average and win percentage and figuring out whether he's good or bad based on that, but actually diving into certain other deeper things that would kind of quantify where you can expose certain guys and where you should be shooting and how you should be moving the puck. And so I love stuff like that. Yeah, France is really interesting. Franz Allen is their goalie.

coach, and he's been there for a while. He came from the Q, Montreal native. You know, just go to the forum, watch games as a kid. Really interesting, his use of analytics. He's been doing this for, you know, decades now. I think he's been a goal of coach for, you know, 20 years or so. And he said he's kind of been honing this system or at least adding to it over that time where, you know, it starts out with something simple as like rebound control. And then, you know, you add another stat there, and then you're accumulating this database of stats and numbers. And, you know, until he got to Tampa, a lot of it was just kind of manually tracking it. And, you know, you track your own goalies, but you don't really have a league-wide frame of reference.

But, yeah, to have Michael in their department there, they really work hand in hand. And then, yeah, the example I, you know, shown the story was when Andre Valsalski gets there. I think they showed he had a, he was struggling in particular to see screenshots, to fight around screens and to track them. this was born out using their own tracking methods. And France's system, which, boy, to sit up there in the press box, I found this third period of one game, I think it was a Toronto game with him. And, you know, he uses an iPad, he writes on the tablet, but it's just this indecipherable series of hieroglyphics of like colors and numbers

and shapes and lines through them. And like, I asked him to explain to me and I had no idea what was going on. But this all kind of condenses into what, you know, he understands his own system and his own, his own numbers of what matters to him as a goalie coach, and then uses that to inform, you know, training with Vasilevsky and, you know, Doming, for instance, when he came,

I think Franz actually knew him from the queue, Doming came, his deficiency was rebound control. And, you know, they knew this because, you know, the analytic staff has data on goalies now, and that's the really cool part about the age we're in, I think, is all these numbers are available, and it can influence decisions, and it leads to at least to cooler stories.

Like, I think it's more interesting to, when you have, you know, evidence that data improved a guy like Andre Vasilevsky, you know, Bonn's one of the best goals in the league right now. Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. And I guess we'll see ultimately, I mean, I guess they have been rewarded for it based on this stretch of dominance. They've had both this season and in the past,

even though it hasn't resulted in us down the cup. But, yeah, it'll be curious to see once they start getting forced into some of those more tricky decisions in terms of who they keep and who they have to ship out of town like the Chicago Blackhawks did, whether their embrace and appreciation and usage of some of this stuff will help them mitigate some of that loss, right? And it make better decisions about who they do ultimately wind up keeping. One kind of behind-the-scenes story. I forget what, maybe this was the practice there or something, but Julian Breezewalk comes in

and he's got a stack of books. and he starts to pass them. No other the coaches were there. This was like after they had gone, he was going to go meet with Cooper, which they did pretty regularly. It turned out too. And I was just kind of rifling through the book, and it was all about, like, I think the art of practice, it was like the art of practicing or just kind of mental preparation. How to get better at getting better, basically. And, you know, using science and kind of examples of, I think Mozart was one example.

And Ray Allen, shooting three pointers was one example. in the book, and I wish I had dug up the name. But he starts passing it around, and, you know, everyone gets a book and just kind of the top-down philosophy there. I'm sure it's not the only organization that, you know, where the GM has given out, you know, books of, you know, encourage forward thinking, but, um, a kind of introspection. But, um, you know, that kind of struck me as, as something that was a little bit noteworthy that. He just had that kind of relationship. That was that kind of culture there where, um, and he did it saying like Oprah. He was like, you get a book. You get a book. I had never met Julian Breezeball before.

That was kind of my first introduction to him. Yeah, what did you think? I think by the third day, he was like, why the hell is this kid still here? Yeah, yeah. He seems like he's a pretty intimidating guy, which I guess is a key for the, if you're going to be a lightning general manager, you have to have that type of presence. All right.

Well, Alex, let's, let's wrap it up here. We'll put a ball on it. And there's a bunch of other stuff I wanted to get into with you, but we'll just save it for next time. guess more stories what uh do you have any uh any stories you're i mean whether they're just kind of well do you have any ideas of stuff you would like to do yeah yeah but you don't want to share for now um i'm working on a few non-hockey projects right now um get some other people swooping in to do a couple things so i'm uh just kicking it cool man well this was a blast i'm glad we got to finally do this and uh the next time you do write a interesting long form feature we're going to get you back on

the show. Sounds good. All right. Have a go, I'm in. You do. PEDYOCAST, Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at SoundCloud.com slash hockey PDOCAST.