The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 290: Unacceptable Defensive Behaviour

Episode Date: April 18, 2019

Rachel Doerrie joins the show to discuss how the Avalanche have won over the hockey world and gotten to within one game of upsetting the Flames, and how the Golden Knights have suddenly become the favourites out West with the Sharks now unravelling before our very eyes. How the Avalanche have outclassed the Flames (1:30) Nathan MacKinnon’s greatness on full display (8:00) Defending Gaudreau, and playoff officiating’s role (17:30) Blame game: Martin Jones vs. the Sharks defense (29:00) What makes the Golden Knights tick (40:30) How Vegas constructed a new top line on the fly (45:30) The feud between Kane and Reaves (52:00) See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Are you ready for the most ridiculous internet sports show you have ever seen? Welcome to React, home of the most outrageous and hilarious videos the web has to offer. So join me, Rocky Theos, and my co-host, Raiders Pro Bowl defensive end, Max Crosby, as we invite your favorite athletes, celebrities, influencers, entertainers in for an episode of games, laughs, and of course the funniest reactions to the wildest web clips out there. Catch React on YouTube, and that is React, R-E-A-X-X. Don't miss it. This podcast episode is brought to you by Coors Light.

These days, everything is go, go, go. It's nonstop hustle all the time. Work, friends, family, expect you to be on 24-7? Well, sometimes you just need to reach for a Coors Light because it's made to chill. Coors Light is cold-loggered, cold-filtered, and cold-packaged. It's as crisp and refreshing as the Colorado Rockies. It is literally made to chill. Coors Light is the one I choose when I need to unwind.

So when you want to hit reset, reach for the beer that's made to chill. Get Coors Light and the new look delivered straight to your door with Drizzly or Instacart. Celebrate responsibly. Coors Brewing Company, Golden Colorado. Progressing to the mean since 2050, it's the HockeyPedioCast. With your host, Dimitri Philip. Welcome to the HockeyedioCast. My name is Dimitri Filipovich.

and joining me as my good buddy, Rachel Dory. Rachel, what's going on? Not much. How are you? I'm good. We're recording this a super duper early Pacific time, Thursday morning, a bit later on out east where you're at. But I'm excited. We're obviously deep in the playoff, whatever you want to call it.

It feels like more of a sprint than a marathon. The regular season is definitely a marathon. But we're deep in it now. We've already seen two sweeps. we're not going to talk about those. I talked about them at length after each respective game three on last episode with Andrew Berkshire. So go check that out.

A lot of what we said still stands. And I did Bruins Leafs with Justin Cuthbert a few days before that. So we're going to not focus on those series. Instead, we're going to look out West. And we're going to talk about the flames and the abs and the sharks and the nights on today's episode. And I'm really excited because I think for my money, they've probably been the two most kind of entertaining series for different reasons. know both series are kind of 3-1 right now and have gone somewhat surprisingly but you and i were talking before we went on the air and it just feels like especially with flames as which is what we're

going to start with deep diving uh it's been just remarkably entertaining it feels like everyone that's been staying up and watching these games has been uh sharing in unison the opinion that it's just been a really fun entertaining series it's provided us with a lot of golden nuggets yeah and i think the one thing with that series is both teams are they play quickly so when you've got both teams that play with speed, you're going to have the game plans built around speed as opposed to the clutch and grab type of playoff hockey that you generally would see. And so the Flames-Aves, I would agree, for my money, it's been probably the most entertaining series so far in terms of the quality of the games, in terms of what I like to see.

So it's been really good. And of course, when you have, I would say for my money, he's the best player left in the playoffs, and Nathan McKinnon. It's entertaining for sure. Yeah, when you say both teams are fast, I think generally Colorado thinks of themselves as a fast team, and I think they want to play fast based on their roster composition.

The problem is that they ran into this one team that makes them look slow, and I think that's more of a testament to how fast and how sort of well-old machine the abs have been through these past three games more so than an indictment on the abs where we're going to label them as a plotting, slow, heavy team. It's not really that. It's just that the abs have sort of exposed them and are

one of the very few teams I think they could have bumped into. They could have done this to them. Yeah, and I think one of the things that's important to point out, both in Tampa's case and in Calgary's case, is that the two teams that they're playing, so Columbus and Colorado, have both essentially been playing playoff hockey for the better part of two and a half months. And Calgary and Tampa have been in coast neutral since probably the middle of January. So when you've got a team that's coming at you and they're well prepared because they've been playing playoff hockey for the better part of the last half of the season, it's very difficult to turn the switch on and deal with it.

And we saw Tampa have issues, but now we're also seeing Calgary have issues. I'm willing to give Tampa not a bit of a free pass, but at least kind of like understand or empathize with that. With Calgary, I'm slightly less inclined to do so just because you're right. Like they knew they were going to be a playoff team so they didn't have any sort of real built-in kind of organic urgency where they had to play their best game every single night down the stretch.

But they were in that Pacific Division slash race for the first seat in the West battle with San Jose kind of approaching the last couple weeks of the season and then they really pulled away and actually what gave me hope for them and optimism heading into this postseason was that they really seemed to reach another gear

where they were playing their best hockey at the right time and all of the underlying number of supported that they were one of the best three to five teams in the league. And so I think that's what's made this particularly jarring watching this series, especially after game one. If we just look at the past three games, where the aves have dominated them at 5-on-5 through that speed and off the rush. And there's a lot of stats that we can cite and we can get into.

But it's been, I think, probably the most surprising series for me so far, which seems crazy to say, consider it. And we just saw a 62 win team get swept by the eight seed. And we saw the Pittsburgh Penguins get swept by the New York Islanders. But just in terms of how this series has played out, like I would have believed that Colorado would make this a series and it would be a hard-fought six, seven game series that Calgary would eventually find a way to win and they still might. But I think the fact that the ads have dominated them so thoroughly of 5-1-5 and that the

flame's best player by just unequivocally has been Mike Smith and has kept them in these games. Like if you told me that was going to believe the blueprint heading into this series, I just wouldn't have believed you. Yeah. And I think that's when your goaltender has to be one of your top players. if you're going to win any series. But the fact that Calgary has given up 108 shots in Denver

over the past two games, that's unacceptable for a 31st place team, let alone a playoff team and one that's the one seed. Like you cannot be, anyone who wants to hang this on Mike Smith is not paying attention because without Mike Smith, quite frankly, Colorado could have had 10 goals the other night.

Like it's insane. And even when you look at the amount of slots, shots. The aves are doubling what the Calgary Flames are taking. And it's really, it's a one-line show for the abs. But even though it's a one-line show, Calgary's line hasn't even shown up. Like, I haven't heard Johnny Goodrow or Sean Monaghan's name pretty much all serious. They've been pretty quiet. And that's not going to go over well if Calgary goes out in five. No, it won't. And you're right about Smith. I mean, he gave up the six goals against in game three and I think if you just look at that you didn't watch the game you'd

be like oh there we go classic mike spith is what you expect but even beyond just the 50 some odd shots he saved like the quality of a lot of those and how many odd man rushes and breakaways they were giving away i mean for goodness sake you and i were talking about it they gave up a breakaway to be in cole at some point or just like all right like things are going off the rails here and you know they never really had a chance of winning that game but the fact that it was as close as it was uh and that it wasn't just an embarrassing double-digit route is purely just because mike smith had a really, really strong performance. And I don't know, that's stunning.

You mentioned the slot shots. I mean, our good friends at Point Hockey, who I've been shouting out on the podcast or the postseason, have it as 100 to 54 in favor of the abs for the series at all strengths. And the rush chances, which I think are the most important in telling part where the abs have really utilized their speed is 42-22 so far. Oh, God. Yeah, that really shows that.

And I think it was probably pretty even in game one. I'd imagine I haven't gone back and look like those are just the full season total. I know that like as the series has progressed, it's gotten, it's devolved more and more for Calgary. And so it's interesting, especially we, like I thought, I highlighted one of the potential areas that Colorado could export them was on the power play. And Calgary actually has been slightly better and has scored more power play goals so far. So this entire series has just been turned upside down and has been the opposite of what I thought. But let's get into McKinnon here because I think it's been really fun to watch sort of this

development of him. I remember obviously he came into the league with all the talent in the world. As an 18-year-old, he had like a 60-point season, I believe he scored 30 goals. He had that little postseason stretch against Minnesota that year in his rookie year, and he looked awesome. And then a combination of injuries and horrible shooting luck and just what-have-you around him wound up kind of suppressing his value and sort of throwing people off the scent a little bit, even though he was the first overall pick. And then he signs this just amazing team-friendly long-term.

term deal with Colorado and they take advantage of those suppressed shooting percentage totals and all of a sudden he puts it all together last year and ever since then he's just been a completely different player where he's right there on the top handful of guys however you want to rank them and and you're right I think for my money he's the best player going in the world right now obviously Connemick David is is injured and not playing in the postseason and just in terms of the guys that are available he I think is the most dominant impactful single single player and so what happened here? Like how, because obviously he's had the talent.

We know he was the top prospect and he came into the league with all this hype. But sort of just watching him through this development and how much his game has changed over the past couple years, what would you attribute that to beyond just the sort of natural, oh, well, he's healthy, he's hitting his prime and he's kind of figured the league out? I think one of the things that's important and sometimes gets overlooked is Nathan McKinnon is a league. and sometimes when there's conflicting stuff going on in the dressing room as there was when Matt Duchyne was in the dressing room and some other players, it wasn't really McKinnon's team because there was that distraction of there are other players. And now with a couple of those players gone, Gabriel Landiscagg is the captain, but make no mistake. Like this is Nathan McKinnon's

team. And I think he really kind of stepped up. up when Colorado needed him last year. And, I mean, had Taylor Hall not done what he did, Nathan McKinn would have been a runaway for the heart. And I still, to be quite fair, I think that he should get some serious consideration this year because, yes, okay, Nikita Kutrov had the season he had, but he also had two other 40 goals scores.

So with McKinnon, I think the switch was when the team sort of became his, and I can see a difference in his skating. So whatever he's done in the summers and with his coaches off ice or even on ice, there's a noticeable improvement. And I equate it to when Nathan McKinnon is skating, he skates downhill in the way that a football running back runs downhill. Once he gets going, he's like a bull. And unless you take a penalty, there's very little that you're going to do to stop him. So that's part of his game significantly improved. And we're seeing more and more that it's a skating game.

and he's got a bit of a different skating style than a McDavid does, but he's still one of, if not the most powerful, explosive skater in the league. And that's really what's made a difference. And his shooting percentages regressed to probably where we expected it to. Yeah. Yeah, one of my Twitter followers described it as violence decadling, and I think that's very apt for all of his game. Like, just in terms of when you watch his skating style,

I mean this in the best possible way as a compliment to him. Like everything about his game is just violent. And when he gets going, it's like, oh, my, it's like a spectacle to watch, really. It is. McDavid is probably faster and, you know, does all of the same stuff in just a different way, though. It feels like there's a bit less force behind that. And I think what's really been fascinating to watch about McKinnon is, is obviously we know that highest gear he can hit and how fast he can hit it. But I think as he's evolved as a player, and this is what I've kind of pointed out to is what I think the difference over the past couple of years has been is he's sort of

to figure it out that he doesn't always need to just go full speed as hard as he can towards the net and just try to like physically force the puck into the net like sometimes taking a bit off of it and slowing down is to his benefit and what I've really noticed in this postseason from him is against this calgary team they just seem to be having no answer for when he comes into the zone with full speed and then just stops on a dime and stops short and then kind of turns back similar to how we see like teams break out for draw passes on on the power play but instead in the offensive zone he stops back and then looks back for trailers that he can hit for one timers or scoring chances and he's been generating so much offense through that and when you have that speed and and defensemen

have to worry about you turning the corner on them obviously they're going to give you more respect and back off and then all of a sudden with his passing and willingness to pass but also the shot that he's really developed all of a sudden like it's just an impossible answer because you don't want to wind up on a highlight reel by overplaying him and getting embarrassed as he skates around you, but you also can't give him too much breathing room because he's dangerous enough and talented enough to beat you in so many different ways. Yeah, and I think one of the things that I talked about is skating, but the thing that's noticeably improved for me is his ability to change gears.

So whether he's coming through the neutral zone at full speed and then he gears down to sort of create that gap and then he starts going again, well, when the D slows down, once he takes those first two strong, He's by you. So it's really difficult to play him now because if he's going full speed, then you've got to watch your gap. And then if he slows up, okay, then you try and gap up a little bit and close that gap. And then he's by you in two strides. So that's one thing that makes him very dangerous like you were talking about because he just,

he's got that ability to change gears so quickly. And then the other thing that he's really improved, and we saw it on. on his overtime goal in game two is he can shoot the puck in full stride. And as a goaltender, I was asking a couple of goaltenders, how do you read that? And one goaltender came back to me and goes,

you don't. Like it's very difficult. He equated it to almost Phil Kessel-like, except McKinnon is faster. So it is even more difficult to deal with because he's coming at you faster, you have less time to read it, and he's snapping the puck in the,

puck in full stride and it's not exactly a weak muffin either like he's zipping he's zipping it well and that's what's obviously about with him and mcdaven and sort of what separates them from the rest of the pack is that you know there's guys who are really fast in this league but they typically like they're either their hands can't keep up with it or they just lack that talent on their stick to sort of convert at a league average or above league average rate with all the chances they do create with their feet so like obviously it's it's you'd rather take those chances even if you know you're not going to convert them at a league i ridge rate just because you're getting them and they can lead to other stuff but at the same time like you know you sort of have to limit your

expectations with these guys when they're creating all those chances and then still converting them as some of the most lethal finishers like it's it's just i don't know it's it's a nightmare scenario for an opponent and we should give some credit to his linemates as well obviously as this series started we were unsure how healthy miko ranton it was going to be and then they started the series separating them and putting on the second line but we saw especially in game four that Jared Bednar kind of went back to the well there and sort of to what he knew. He had in those three guys, especially when they were trailing and they needed to score some goals. And the three of them were awesome together and Ranton and obviously scored the game tying and the game winning goals.

And I know Landis Gogh doesn't have any goals to show for himself, but he's been around the Net All series and looks like when he breaks through finally, he's going to score a bunch of goals. So you put those three guys together and it's sort of a really kind of telling neat storyline for how. this series has gone in separate ways for these two teams because the top line for the flames has as you mentioned the top really just not done anything and i don't know what the answer there i mean have you noticed anything with those three guys in terms of what the abs are doing against them or or what we can attribute those issues to because it feels like it's more than just oh you know it's been four games they've been a bit unlucky the goals will come because the chances haven't been there and that's i think the more more concerning issue

Yeah, I would say the two things I've noticed, which with each of the top lines, is on Colorado side, Calgary has no answer for their speed through the neutral zone, and that's why they're getting so many rush chances is because they're just backing off, obviously, the McKinnon factor there. But with Calgary, I'm noticing that they're not coming through the neutral zone with any type of force. They're playing a lot on the perimeter as opposed to sort of driving that middle lane. They don't have a middle lane driver, really, in this series. And that's kind of off-putting for me because they were really successful with that this season. And yes, Johnny Godreau is like that smaller player and he can create from the perimeter. But he's at his best when he's creating from the middle of the ice, when he gets to the middle of the ice, and he opens up room for Monaghan and Lindholm.

And even Lindholm's goal last night, that was from the top of the circle. Like, by no means is that from the middle of the middle of the ice. the ice. So they're just, they're not getting to the middle of the ice like they did all season. And I don't know whether it's because it's not ingrained in them or it just something about what Colorado is doing is not allowing them. But there's got to be some type of forceful I will get to the middle because I'm Johnny Goodrow or I'm Sean Monaghan. And there hasn't been that in the way that there has been with the top line of Colorado. Well, let's not beat a brown in the bush.

Let's address Dellef in the room. It's, it feels like with Goodrow, like he's obviously a heck of a player, but I wonder a big topic this postseason so far in the entire league has been the officiating and how it changes come the postseason. And I know that the penalty rates are generally fairly similar in the postseason compared to the regular season, but it feels like in totality, the referees let players get away with more, especially obstruction and sort of little stuff like slashes here and there just because

they kind of don't want to call everything and the players abuse that obviously and try to push the envelope and I have noticed that obviously quite a bit in this series where it feels like the abs of clearly I mean it's not a surprise and I think they'd be willing to admit as much that they're part of their game plan for defending Guadro has been let's make it as tough on him physically by really kind of just bearing down on him and if we take some penalties so be it

but we're not going to let him just kind of skate around and dance around and create stuff with a full head of steam. And we've seen that. And unfortunately, I don't know how much of the blame to put there on Goodroll. It's like, it's very easy to be like, oh, you know, this happens to everyone. You have to fight through it. But at the same time, we're talking about if they call the game by the letter of the law, I feel like that the Calgary Flames would have quite a bit more a few power plays so far.

Yeah. And I think so Ian and I talked about this for probably about a half an hour on our podcast. In game three, I counted a shift where Johnny Goodrow got, and I'm not talking inconsequential. Like, an inconsequential slash to me is on the shin pads where you don't fall down. Like, everyone does that in the regular season. They're not calling it. I counted three slashes on his wrist with puck possession in a single shift. And if you want to let the stuff away from the play go in the same, the way that they have with like a Vander Cain and Ryan Reeves,

I'm okay with that. no one's swinging their stick at someone's head, I'm okay with it. But when you're slashing a guy on the hands while he has the puck, and I'm talking with a wind-up, I think that's got to be called. And it's interesting to point out that last night, the officials in the Calgary, Colorado game were the officials in game two of the Toronto Boston series. And we all know how that game ended up. So it wasn't really shocking to me that there were significantly less. People called them tickey-tacky penalties, but that series has had a lot of stick work, particularly where Johnny Goodrow is concerned, because that is a way that you can stop him,

where as Nathan McKinnon's a bit bigger, and you're lucky if you can even get to his hands. But I think that that definitely plays a part of it, and I'm all for the, it's a little bit tougher in the playoffs but when you're slashing a guy on the hands and he's got the puck that's one of the things i think you have to call yeah i mean it's like materially impacting the player right i think well and even the other night um i i tweeted about it matt barzell took six cross checks well down to the back and there was no penalty and he's battling for the puck so he's on his knees and he takes six cross checks how do we not call at least one of them it's It's mystifying, especially like what other league would not like sort of not protect,

but like take care of its best, most exciting, most skilled players. Like it's like, I don't know, some of the stuff that that players get away with in this postseason is really head scratching. And listen, we're not trying to make excuses for Goodro and the flames. Like clearly he needs to be better. The fact that that line has one created pretty much the one goal at 515 and then Lynn Holm scored on the power play yesterday. and they have like nine total five-on-five chances combined together.

Like, that's clearly not going to get it done regardless of how the game's being officiate. I don't care if they're playing prison rules out there. They still need to generate more. But you also can't turn a blind eye to it. You sort of contextually need to describe what's going on in the series when you're talking about the series. Absolutely. And I think the addition of Kail McCar has also helped because it slid some defensemen down the depth chart in Colorado. um kail mccar has been terrific in the his first two nchl games like he's been everything is advertised

and it's allowed a couple of the colorado d to slide down a little bit and does kail mccar have some defensive stuff he needs to figure out yes but he's also played two nchl games and he's playing them in the playoffs so that's even more of an adjustment but i think the fact that he skates he's a skating defenseman and someone like that if you can add them to your lineup also helps with defending against the higher skilled players but that's no excuse i mean john godreau shan monahan elias lintosh even matthew kachuk like they have to get to the middle i sort of i expected more agitated but i expected more sort of antagonistic behavior from matthew kachuk than i've seen and i wouldn't be sure

shocked if it came in Calgary because he could really get the crowd behind him there. And that's maybe something that is Calgary's kicking the pants to let's go. Like we need to figure this out here and write the ship. Well, yeah, I mean, I guess if you're sort of drawing up the game plan for how they can bounce back and get back into the series, they have two of the potential three last games at home where they've been better. And I think they still have the talent there. Like it's not like we're talking about a team that is just completely outclassed here

from a skill perspective. Like they've been outclassed in terms of on ice results. But I think there's a few potential things that they could do to mix it up. But they clearly can't just keep playing the way they've been playing and hope for better results because that be foolish. Like they've been relying on Mike Smith to a very unsustainable level. And they haven't really been able to test Philip Grubauer, who's been good when he has been called upon, but nearly enough on the other end of the ice. And it's going to be very fascinating to see how much kind of fight and how much pushback they have left here. I'm glad you mentioned Makar because I think his skating and his vision has certainly popped off the page watching him in these first two games and it's clear that Bednar.

I know he played like 20-some-odd minutes in game two, but if you look a lot of those five-odumapai minutes are coming against, you know, Manji Apani and Derek Ryan, and he's clearly sort of picking and choosing where he's going to play them, and that's as to be expected. And I can't imagine once this guy gets like a full summer and a full training camp and full preseason and practicing with the team full-time, how good he's going to look and what, element he's going to add to this, uh, Ab's team as another sort of creator, because we think of them typically as being a bit too over reliant on their top guys and being a bit too top heavy. And now he gives them someone alongside Tyson Barry to create offensively and take

some of the responsibility off the shoulders of that top forward line. And I'm, I'm really fascinated to see like how, what the ceiling is for him and what he's able, going to be able to accomplish with this team. It's going to be fun to watch. And, you know, Ray Farrar was pointing this out. I think we do sometimes take it for granted. because ultimately, you know, you're playing hockey and he was coming from playing in the NCAA to the NHL, and it's clearly a big leap in terms of competition and talents you're playing against and the speed the games being played at.

But, you know, you still sort of, you can make the argument that he's in a rhythm and he's playing confidently and all that. But there were a few times there, especially in the power play where you're kind of playing a more structured setup and you have lanes where you want everyone to go into where he was kind of like bumping into his own guys. And I thought that was kind of funny to watch just to sort of reiterate and, and, remind you that he really hasn't gotten to practice of the team and figure all this stuff out. And the fact that he's looked as good as he has, considering all of that, is pretty scary. Yeah, and I think we'll see once Kale gets a training camp and some reps under his belt, it would not shock me to see him running the power play one next year. Just because with Tyson Berry, who is a little bit better defensively than Kail Makar,

you're going to want him to have those shutdown, potentially those P-K minutes. And if you can sort of lessen the load on Tyson-Berry and even move him to PowerPlay 2, that's probably a good idea because Keal McCar has already shown that he's got the capability to quarterback a PowerPlay, whether you're watching him in NCAA or you watched him for Team Canada or even here, like, yes, he's bumping into guys now, but once he understands the system, that's not going to happen anymore. And he has the hockey IQ to see the lanes to create, to exit the zone and to gain that zone entry.

I think that's where Colorado will really benefit is because they'll be able to take a little bit of the minutes away from Tyson Barry, who is going to start as Kail McCarr comes into his own, is going to start to get older, and we all know how age curves work. So if you can sort of make that, transition relatively seamless i mean you're going from one top defenseman to another in colorado potentially well and obviously the abs are in a great place here organizationally where

pretty much all of this is sort of i think found money right like they've they've got that fourth overall pick from the senators and they've got their own first and they have cap space and they have both their guys locked up they're going to have to you know handle the uh meiko ranton and extension but obviously otherwise like they're set up here to build something special and i think this is a bit of ahead of schedule and it's been it's been fun to watch but it has been staggering to see just how well they've played in this series so far through these past three games and really overwhelmed the flames and i i i think at this point like you have to consider them um you know as as as they're going to finally finish this thing off and and get into the second round like i know

the flames you don't want to count them out just because of how great a regular season they had and the fact that they are going back home now but it's i just haven't really seen in enough from them in this series to make me feel confident that they're all of a sudden going to flip this switch and figure out how to deal with this app speed. Yeah, there are different coaching adjustments that you can make. There is very little you can do in a one-on-one situation when you have to deal with somebody like Nathan McKinnon because we saw, like you can, in Toronto, Boston, you can play a different style, but if they call it, they call it. And at the end of the day, whether you're playing a

style that is maybe a little bit more physical and harder on the players, the guys like Nathan McKinnon and Connor McDavid and Sidney Crosby are still going to find ways to beat you. And at that point, it's talent level. Like Nathan McKinnon has been dominant pretty much all season. That entire line has been terrific all year. And I don't know. that Calgary is going to do anything in the next three games that's going to drastically limit what that top line in Colorado is doing. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like an uphill battle.

All right, let's move on from this series and get into Sharks Nights. It's been an entertaining series, certainly not short on storylines. What watching these games has sort of stuck out to you as our lead topic of discussion here, because it seems like the sharks have really just, I mean, since a really strong game one effort where they looked like they were at full power and they were going to realize all that potential we had hope for them,

they've just completely unraveled progressively as the series has gone along. So there's two big things for me. Martin Jones is really struggling. And the tandem of Eric Carlson and Brent Burns have been turned inside out no less than five times each. And when you have two Norris caliber defensemen being turned inside out five times each in a series, that's probably not a very good sign, especially when you have a struggling goaltender.

So I think that it's been a combination of Martin Jones has been not very good, and the players in front of him now losing Flassick is a big issue, but the players in front of whom that you expect to shoulder some of the sort of harder minutes are not playing well. I mean, the Martin Jones thing, so he's given up 13 goals on 80 shots. He's been pulled twice. By natural statrix measures, he's given up six more goals so far in this series. They do expect from a league average guy, which is bad considering we're four games into the series. That's not good for an entire series.

It's not good. And it's obviously, it's horrible yet not surprising, unfortunately, I think, based on the regular season he had. And we all kept identifying this as a massive reason, a red flag for why if the sharks did fall short of expectations, it would be likely because of this. And it's sort of playing out before our very eyes. And I think Doug Wilson is typically a very smart GM who has done a great job of building this team over the years. but for them not to, I'm not sure how much they entertained it or how far our talks got or what they explored. So it's kind of difficult to comment on it and fully blast them because it's quite possible that they did inquire and were willing to pay fair prices. And for whatever reason, the deals just didn't manifest.

But for them to just go into the traded line and only had to go to Stav Nyquist and not address this at all and just be comfortable going into the postseason with what they had based on what they'd already seen, I think it's sort of unforgivable just because it was so transparently obvious to all of us and it's sort of playing out exactly as we envisioned. Yeah, and I think what's interesting is going into the season back in August, September, a lot of people looked at the San Jose goaltending and said, wow, like, that's a really good goaltending tandem if they both play. Because Aaron Dell, the season before this season was terrific. Martin Jones has, we've seen the fact that Martin Jones has the capability to

be a very high-quality goaltender, and both of them have not been good this year, which the odds of both your goaltenders being bad in the same year are probably pretty low, I'm willing to bet, but the fact that you came to February and there were no signs of improvement from either guy, that's concerning. And they may have taken a look at it, we don't know, but, But Martin Jones looks like a shell of himself right now, and I don't know whether it's confidence or whether he's potentially playing hurt. You never know, but it's oddly Jake Allen-like in terms of he has the potential and ability to be very good, and we've seen it.

And for whatever reason, he's just completely lost himself. He's gone the other way. Like him and Robin Lennar basically switched this season. Well, so the goalie's job is to stop the puck. So I'm not making excuses for it, but I think we do need to dig a little bit deeper here to try to figure out what's going on. Because it's very clear when you watch these games that I think clearly a better goalie could make cover up for some of these flaws and keep the sharks in it more than this combination of two guys has. At the same time, I feel like there really is only so much you conceivably do considering some of these defensive zone breakdowns we've seen from the sharks. and, you know, their strategy and sort of their game plan all year, and it was a good one,

was we have this dominant offensive team that controls the puck because we have so many good players, and we feel like we can limit the exposure to our goalies just because we're going to be in the offensive zone so often, and we're going to be controlling such a high percentage of the shot share. Now, unfortunately, they ran into a Vegas Golden Knights team that is on par with them at 515, if not even slightly better, especially based on how we saw them play since they acquired Marks Zone at the deadline and so they, without the benefit of that all of a sudden

you're relying on Martin Jones more and whenever they don't have the puck and when they're in a defensive zone or especially when they're defending off the rush it really seems like it's just a comedy of errors it seems like there's no real game plan for what they're trying to accomplish and there's so many miskews and there's so much sort of finger pointing after the play of like

oh you were supposed to be there oh who had that guy and and I think that's been the thing the more alarming part. It's very easy for us and very clear to point out all of the goaltenders deficiencies and that's certainly part of this equation. But it's not like they're the only ones to blame here. I think there's plenty of blame to go around. Yeah. And even if you just want to look at the last game, there were three goals that if I were a coach, I would be ringing the five alarm inferno bells. The first goal, which was I think 16 seconds into the game. To allow Mark Stone to have that much room and that much lane is completely

unacceptable. Like, you just, you can't have that. Then you have the Shea Theodore goal in the last minute of the third period where, I mean, he could have floated down in a lawn chair, basically, and he walked around Brent Burns, who, I went back and watched it from multiple different angles. He didn't look like he was putting any effort in. It was like a kind of half-hardt poke check, his skates were facing the wrong way, his shoulders were another way, I couldn't tell you what he was doing. And then Eric Carlson, I believe it was in the third period, when Vegas scored again, he was out to lunch. And those are your two best defensemen, and you're missing your third best in Vlasic. So you would need those guys to step up, and that would definitely

not be my definition of stepping up. So when you talk about Martin Jones not getting the help, well, Shea Theodore was one on four. And as a goaltender, I don't think you're expecting a breakaway from a one on four, which is exactly what he got. And so it's a lot of this is just really unacceptable defensive behavior from the San Jose Sharks, particularly from two guys who you expect to be your leaders on the back end. That's going to be the title of today's episode i'm writing it down right now unacceptable defensive behavior and i think it's apt you're right i think like and this is what is always tricky for us as analysts without having um you know of the full view of things we're only watching these games and we're only trying to you know figure out

what we can is like when you divvy up this blame and you try to figure out like okay how much of this is on the coaching staff like what are they trying to accomplish here how much of it is the player is just not executing what they're being told to do. How much of it is the goldening? How much of it is? And I had Kevin Woodley on talking about goalies a couple weeks ago on the podcast. And he made a great point when he was talking about like Steve Mason's days in Columbus where it's like when the trust relationship erodes between the defense and the goalie all

of a sudden everyone's trying to do a bit too much to overcompensate and you're sort of pushing yourself out of position even more. And it's sort of this ironic feedback loop where it's like you're trying to ultimately do a good thing but you're just exacerbating the problems even more because of it and so i'm sure there's some of that as well and i think ultimately the right answer is it's probably like a little bit of all of these things you can't just kind of separate one and just view it in a vacuum but whatever it is i mean the sharks have a lot of work to do heading back down three one uh going back to san Jose just because like they have so many things to patch up here beyond just okay our goalie needs to be better and make more

saves. Yes, and I think we can't excuse what Joe Thornton did in a 20 or 21 year career. That was really not smart. And apart from the first game, I don't think Joe Pavelski's been very good. Well, in his defense, he did break his face. That's, it's, yes, that is fair enough. And that just lends credence to another point, which is, why are hockey players? the only players that play with these type of injuries in the playoffs like this is not a smart thing to

do yeah i think it was 2013 of patrice bergeron is playing with a punctured lung yeah like that's rather dangerous but i think san jose's problems don't just stop at their goaltending and some misuse from their defense uh last i checked they lost five nothing and you cannot win unless you score yep so their forwards clearly aren't doing a good job there. Now, I have noticed that they've had issues breaking the puck out, and that's because they're having issues recovering the puck in their own end, which lends credence again to their defense. But Vegas's forecheck is one of the best in the league, I would say.

If not the best. Like Gerard Galance got them not only playing very structured, but it's very difficult to deal with. Like, I don't know a lot. lot of defensive cores that would be able to handle the type of speed, tenacity, and just hunger for the puck that Vegas brings when they come in on the forecheck. And they come in waves, which is something we're seeing is very difficult to deal with. Yeah, I mean, it was their calling card, their bread and butter last year during that cup run. And then they go out and add Mark Stone and Max Petrietti, who we're going to talk about what they've done offensively. But I think both guys, like, you know, we know about Mark Stone now.

He's a Selke nominee, a Selky finalist. And he should win. And he deserves it, obviously. But I think even a Max Patchretti, who even at this stage of his career, maybe not as much as in years past when he was in his prime. But at the same time, it's sort of like this tenacious guy defensively that we don't think about him because he scores all these goals. But you add guys like this to this layered forecheck. And it's just, you're right.

I mean, it must be devastating to deal with. And that's why we've sort of seen this five-on-five dominance from the Knights. We spent the first 10 minutes or so of the series talking about what the sharks have done wrong, and it's understandable considering the hype they came in with and the fact that they're the ones down 3-1. But we do need to attribute a lot of this to what Vegas has done correctly on their part. They've kind of continued what they did when they were ending off the regular season, being a dominant 5-15 team. You know, so far they've controlled 54.2% of the shot attempts in the series of 5-15,

58.6 of the high-danger attempts. They're up 10-4 and goal differential at 5-15. which I think the fact that they've given up four goals only to the Sharks team and four games of five-on-five is probably the most telling stat of this series. And so I'm very interested from their perspective of the question of like should we view them now as the preeminent Western Conference favorite because I think a lot of people were really high on them heading into this postseason in terms of ability and how well they played since the trade headline. But especially for myself, I'm speaking here, like I was a bit concerned about the path that they'd have to be.

to take just because it looked like they'd have to go on the road and play San Jose, which was far from a sure thing and a really tough matchup. And then we were viewing this Calgary team as being just as good. And it's like, okay, now they have to run the gauntlet where they have to play both those teams just to get to the conference final. That seems like a pretty undoable task. But then all of a sudden, they've made quick work of San Jose so far through these four games.

And you look over at the other part of the bracket. And even if Calgary finds a way to come back from their three-one hole and win in seven against Colorado. Colorado is at least, as we talked about for the first 30 minutes of the show, drawn up the blueprint of how to play them and how you can expose them. And that basically that sort of that foot speed, that team speed and that 5-1-5 creation off the rush is what Vegas does best. So I think even if they have to play Calgary in round two,

that is a terrible matchup for Calgary now based on what we know. So things have really opened up for Vegas. And I think they have to be considered right up there as one of the, the favorites to go far in this postseason. I would pay large money to see a Colorado Vegas series because I think both teams play with the same speed. I think they both have the players that can back you off. Obviously, McKinnon would be the best player in that series, but they both got stable

goal-tending. Now I'd give the edge to flurry there because, I mean, if you're not giving the edge to flurry at this point, you're probably not paying attention. but I would agree with you. I think that Colorado's kind of drawn up the blueprint and that's good. But with Vegas, I mean, we saw it last year in the playoffs when they just kind of steamrolled through everyone except the caps, that they are a force to be reckoned with and it's not just because of the players that they have because now they've added two arguably top line wingers.

in Patcheretti and in Mark Stone, who, I mean, anytime you can add a single player of that caliber is excellent, but when you can add two players of that caliber, because you've done a good job drafting and accumulating assets, that's pretty difficult to contend with. And you add them into a system that plays or even emphasizes how good they are in the defensive side of the puck. It's a recipe for success at that point, because even if you look at Vegas's decor, it's not the strongest decor out there. Like, San Jose's decor is better. I would argue that Colorado's decor is better.

But, I mean, the way that they play, they play to, one, Flurry's strengths, and two, the puck is never in their end. So it's very difficult to get high danger scoring opportunities when they always have the puck. And even when they don't have the puck, Vegas makes it very difficult for them to break out or come through the neutral zone with any kind of speed. Yeah. I like this Vegas decor. I think, you know, they've done a great job of sort of splitting it up where you have

Schmidt on one pair, you've got theater or another, and then you've got Colin Miller. And so you always have a guy out there who can skate and you can do stuff with a puck. And I think San Jose, obviously, Vlasic, he looks like, sounds like he's going to come back, but he left early in game two. And Carlson, I think we haven't even talked about the fact that, you know, we talked about how he got exposed a couple times. may look silly in game four with that highlight real goal. But I think he's probably not 100%.

I think it's fair to say. I think he threw us a bit off the scent because he looked so good and so dominant in game one. And I think we're all so excited to see him after him not playing for six weeks or so. So we were all just kind of jumped the gun a bit and went like, oh my God, he's back. He's so good. Look at playoff Eric Carlson. He's back in our lives. But I just, I mean, as the series has gone along, I think physically he's pretty clearly not there.

and his ice time has depreciated as the series has gone along. And there's certain instances where he looks like he's laboring quite a bit and he can't really rotate fully. And it's tough to watch. But I think like with this Vegas team, we talked about this a lot during last year's run where it's like, if you're the GM of another team, you must be sweating a little bit because all of a sudden I imagine your owner is probably like,

hey, so remember how you kept preaching that we need to be patient and we need to have this five-year plan to accumulate talent because it's really hard to do so in this league. How do you explain what Vegas is doing here? I mean, the fact that they had the year they had last year, and then since the summer, they go out and sign Paul Stasney. Now obviously it helps that players want to play there, and also because of the tax exemptions,

they got to sign him for a very reasonable deal, and he took probably less money than he could have. You trade for Max Patruetti in the summer, and then you trade for Mark Stone at the deadline, and you don't even give up what I think is your top prospect in your pool with coach. class and all of a sudden you have these three guys who are basically your top line all of a sudden to go along with that Marsha. So Carlson Riley Smith line from last year, it's like, man, if you're

the GM on another team, you must be like, oh, come on. Like, can you guys give me a bit of a break? I've got my owner now just down my throat about this. Like it must be adding, it must be raising a lot of very uncomfortable awkward questions for a lot of GMs out there. Yes, it is. I can tell you that. And I think, think that it's important to point out that Vegas took advantage of teams who had bad contracts. So you want us to take this contract because we've got a blank salary cap or you don't want us to take a good player. Well, we're going to take your first round pick then. And in their first round, they took Cody Glass, Eric Brandstrom, and Nick Suzuki, who had they all played for Vegas,

would have been high entertainment value. And now they've been in a lot of entertainment value. And now they've been able to use those players because I think had last season gone not well in terms of Vegas maybe misses the playoffs they probably keep those players and they load up again and draft a bunch of assets again type of thing but because they had the season that they had why wouldn't you go for it now because let's say you win a cup how many more fans are you going to create how much more attention are you drawing how much more money is coming in so they had those assets that they acquired pretty much by just making shrewd moves with teams who were in cap trouble or had too many players and now they've flipped them and they've turned them into

a Selky candidate and a 40 goal scorer um in max patcheretti who didn't have 40 this year but he's a former 40 goal scorer um it's just you can't really do that and so the fact that Vegas has been able to do that and have the success because you also need those players to mesh, right? We saw that Dushain didn't really mesh in Ottawa, but Stone has really meshed in Vegas and Patcheretti after kind of a rough start has really looked good in Vegas. Paul Stassan's looked good. I mean, George McPhee and Gerard Glant from a management and a coaching perspective have seemed to push all the right buttons. And I think it's more a testament to them. than anything else.

The fact that they know what is and is not a fit for their team in terms of the type of player that they want, because I think we can all agree there are better hockey players out there than Max Patriot-Ready kind of thing. But the fact that George went out and said, no, this is, this player is going to fit with the way that Gerard plays is a testament to George McPhee. Well, I think you use Patriot's example there. I'd say Stasney's probably an even more apt example, right, where it's like, he's certainly not the most talented player,

but he just fits so perfectly on this team. And he probably fit perfectly in every team because he's arguably one of the smartest players in the league. But it's clearly a unique set of circumstances what happened here with the Vegas. And so I get that people are going to be like, oh, well, it's not that applicable to us. But I do think there are some lessons to be gleaned here

that you brought up this summer in terms of when you're talking yourself into some sort of a bad contract just because you have money to spend and you need to fill your lineup and you need to put a jersey on someone. Like remember this because Cap Space can be used in many different creative ways down the road to take advantage of other people's bad contracts in Vegas clearly squeezed as much value as they cut out of that. I mean, this line, you know, Stone's got the six goals. He's got the hat trick.

He has 10 points so far. I mean, they've scored 12 of the 18 team goals. Pat Reddy's been on the ice for nine of the 10, 5-on-5 goals Vegas has scored and 14 of the 18 total goals. And so it's amazing to think that as good as they've looked so far, that other line of theirs with Marcia So Smith and Carlson has done a great job at 515 and defensively, but they still are probably going to have at least a couple of games here where they're going to break out. And Alex Tuck finally showed life and scored a goal in the last game, but he looks like he probably, based on what he did last season and throughout much of this year, has more to give as well. And so that's scary when you put that all together with Flurry and with that blue line. That's why Vegas is such a well-old machine right now and looks like they're going to be poised to. I think they're right now the Stanley Cup favorite in terms of the Vegas betting odds.

And I imagine that that's probably going to hold true for at least a little bit of time here. Yeah, I would say that in the East, whoever wins the Toronto Boston Series is probably the betting favorite to come out of the East now, just because obviously the juggernaut is no longer there. And I think in the West, it's all. obviously a little bit more wide open in the West, but you'd have to have Vegas up there. I mean, you'd almost be foolish not to because Flurry has shown no signs of cracking yet. Vegas hasn't shown anything that would lead me to believe that they're anywhere close to cracking. And Gerard Gallant gets credit a lot for being a very prepared coach,

and Jared Bednar also gets this credit because he's insanely prepared. for everything, I just don't see a team A beating Vegas four times, especially if they have to beat them at home, because by all accounts and people I've talked to, that building is near impossible to win in. I'm pretty prepared for this podcast. Do I get credit for that? I mean, yeah, of course. That's good.

I just wanted to make sure. Is there anything else on the series we want to touch to? I don't know. I mean, we've been talking about it for 20 minutes, and we didn't even match. mention Kane versus Reeves, but I mean, there's nothing really from analysis perspective to speak on there. No, it's been greatly entertaining and it's part of what makes the playoff so fun. But I think it also does speak to the fact that when we mentioned like San Jose is kind of just combusting before our eyes here and sort of really falling apart. And I think when you're

getting into stuff like that, like if you're if you're getting into it and making Ryan Reeves the focus of everything, I think that's a problem. Vegas and Reeves view that as a job well done and would take that any day of the week. And so if you're the other team, you should probably not do that because it seems like you're playing right into their trap. Well, and one of the things, this is a perfect example. And I was talking about this with a few people is the Reeves cane feud is a perfect example of a few things. One, you can chirp off the ice and it can be clean. It doesn't have to be the Sean Avery garbage.

Secondly, it's from an officiating standpoint, you can let things go between two players because it's more than likely away from the play. Neither of them are doing anything dangerous, and it's confined between those two. So it's not like Cadry running around and doing what he's doing or people laying high hits. It's all stick work and this, that, and the other, and then they fight it out and they continue on their merry way chirping. So because it's confined and it's away from the play and it's not endangering anyone else, let him go at it. Like, you want to take yourself out for five minutes, be my guest. Just don't start laying heavy, dirty hits and endangering other players and we'll let you play. Because that's sort of the spirit of playoff hockey, not this charging and elbowing and grabbing.

Like, it's more of the passion. And, I mean, if I'm Vegas, you want to take a Vander Cane. off the ice for five minutes for Ryan Reeves, I'll take that trade off. Yeah. And I actually think both guys, you're talking about the comments off the ice. I think both guys have actually excelled quite a bit in terms of the creativity of their comments and how well they've taken it in stride and sort of added to the lore of the story. So I have really enjoyed that. You're right. It hasn't sort of devolved into this kind of like just generic trash talk. It's actually been creative and fun and just the right amount of mean

spirited. Exactly. And I think that that's important because it hasn't devolved into that mean-spirited stuff that you talked about and also hasn't devolved into WWE on the ice. Yeah. Well said. Is there anything else we wanted to touch on here in this series or anything else before we get out of here?

We're approaching the hour mark now. So I think like we've accomplished what we came out to do here today. But we still have a bit of time life. Is there anything else you wanted to get on? I think that you nailed it with Vegas being the cup favorite, and until somebody knocks them off their throne, I think that you'd have to agree with that. Definitely shocked by the Nashville result the other night,

because that was pretty crazy. But we'll see what happens. I mean, I just think that a team coming into Vegas and having to win a game is really difficult. Like, it's, that atmosphere is second to none. It actually reminds me more of a soccer atmosphere where it's very hostile, it's very loud, and kudos to their fans,

because there hasn't been a game that I've tuned in this entire season where that building hasn't been rocking. So it's not like they just showed up for the playoffs. Like, they're there every night. Yeah, and the team obviously playing at a dizzying pace, both adds to that atmosphere and also makes it that much more difficult to deal with because it does feel like, you know,

there's like a bit of a snowball effect where if you're the opposing team, you let up for a second and you make one mistake and they're talented enough to capitalize on it, but then they're deep enough and they're fast enough to just keep coming at you in waves to build off of that. And so you make one mistake and all of a sudden

it leads to two, three, four down the line and then all of a sudden you look up and the game just got away from you. Well, and I think one of the things that's pretty cool is Vegas plays to their city's identity. So when you think about Vegas, you think about entertainment, you think about, like, you're going for a show. And when you watch Vegas play, that's an entertaining brand of hockey.

They're fast, they score. Everything in the building is built on entertaining the fan and the fan experience, including the team on the ice. And so when you're watching a team that's entertaining and you're used to entertainment because you live in Vegas, that builds that builds brand equity and that makes people want to come

because the games are fun. Nobody wants to watch a clutch and grab game anymore. This is not 1984. Like they want to see fast speed, skill, scoring. That's what they want to see. And Vegas is doing that to a tease.

Yep. No, that's well said. All right, Rachel, let's get out of here. Plug some stuff. You mentioned your podcast at the start. Tell the listeners about that

and some of the other stuff, do. So Ian Tulloch and I, who writes for the athletic, started the staff and graph podcast, where essentially we take coaching tactics and analytics, and we kind of make them understandable. So we'll talk about topics from both perspectives, but we'll talk about them in a way that are very digestible, so that your average fan who maybe doesn't know as much about the analytics or the tactical side of things can understand and enjoy it and then potentially bring it over to their hockey experience. So it's kind of just trying to make hockey more accessible and understandable for your average fan. And that's sort of my focus right now.

And I haven't decided to jump back into writing yet just because I don't want to jump back in and then have to leave for one reason or another. So the podcast has definitely been the focus. And so it's on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, basically wherever you can find. find a podcast, it's there. And we do a mailbag. So if you want to tweet at either of us, we like to answer two or three questions, a podcast.

Where can people tweet at you? People can find me at Rachel Dory on Twitter. And I have a sassy avatar that's a cartoon. And yeah, that's basically the only way you can find me because I'm pretty active on Twitter and I've gotten better at responding now that I can respond to people. So, I mean, as long as you come at me and you're not swearing or you don't have just this crazy hot take, you'll more than likely get a response if I see it. I love the crazy hot takes.

The playoffs really lend themselves to them. So it's been fun being on Twitter. Travis Dermit should be a healthy scratch according to my Twitter feed, which is really a take. Yeah. If you want to have a good time, just go search up my mentions on Twitter. There's some good stuff going on there. All right, Rachel, this was a little bit of it. blast. I'm really glad we got to do this. And let's chat again soon. Keep up the good work with

the podcast with you and Ian. And you and I hopefully talk again sometime down the line here. Let's revisit some of these conversations maybe in the second round or in the conference finals when we could really kind of like dive into, especially in the conference finals when there's only two series going on and we can just split them up and really get into them. Sounds good. Looking forward to it. Thanks for having me. Chat then. The hockey pediocast with Dimitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich. and on SoundCloud at SoundCloud.com slash HockeyPedioCast.