The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 297: Tale of Two Tapes

Episode Date: May 30, 2019

Adam Gretz joins the show to discuss the first two games of the Stanley Cup Final, how the Bruins threw the first punch and how the Blues fought right back, and what to look for moving forward in the series. Plus a deep dive on one of the most uniquely bizarre nixed trades in recent memory.1:40 How the Blues broke through in Game 217:30 Vlad Tarasenko’s dominance25:50 What to watch for in Games 3 and 441:00 How Tom Wilson broke the Penguins54:00 Phil Kessel’s trade value1:00:00 The Wild’s directionless planSee acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Are you ready for the most ridiculous internet sports show you have ever seen? Welcome to React, home of the most outrageous and hilarious videos the web has to offer. So join me, Rocky Theos, and my co-host, Raiders Pro Bowl defensive end, Max Crosby, as we invite your favorite athletes, celebrities, influencers, entertainers in for an episode of games, laughs, and of course the funniest reactions to the wildest web clips out there. Catch React on YouTube, and that is React, R-E-A-X-X. Don't miss it. This podcast episode is brought to you by Coors Light.

These days, everything is go, go, go. It's nonstop hustle all the time. Work, friends, family, expect you to be on 24-7? Well, sometimes you just need to reach for a Coors Light because it's made to chill. Coors Light is cold-loggered, cold-filtered, and cold-packaged. It's as crisp and refreshing as the Colorado Rockies. It is literally made to chill. Coors Light is the one I choose when I need to unwind.

So when you want to hit reset, reach for the beer that's made to chill. Get Coors Light and the new look delivered straight to your door with Drizzly or Instacart. Celebrate responsibly. Coors Brewing Company, Golden Colorado. Progressing to the mean since 2015, it's the HockeyPedioCast. With your host, Dimitri Phil. Welcome to the HockeyPedioCast. My name is Dimitri Filipovich.

And joining me as my good buddy, Adam Grets. Adam, what's going on, man? Hey, how are you doing today? Thanks for having me back. It's been a long time since I've had you. I don't actually don't think you've even been on this incarnation on my podcast. Like, I think I had you back on when, like, Camp Sherrod and I were doing it back in the glory days. It has been a while.

It has. I mean, according to our Skype records, the last time we chatted was in 2016. We've obviously chatted more recently than then on Twitter. But, yeah, it's good to have you on the show, man. I, you know, you have a, you have one of the better, more admirable motors in the, in the blogging game. You write so often. I, like, when I write, like, more than once a week, I get just burnt out and stressed out. And when I see people like you turn out content as frequently as you do, and as well as you do, I'm very impressed.

Oh, that means a lot. It's, uh, got to do what you got to do to pay the bills. You're the, uh, yeah, you're the, you're the, you're the, you're the, you're the, you're the, you're the, you're the, you're the, you're the, you're the, you're the, you're my best. Yeah. Okay, so you and I today are going to talk about the first two games of this Bruins-Brews series. It's been pretty eventful. It's kind of been, I'd say, a tale of two completely different games. Like, obviously both were pretty close and Game 2 could have gone either way, obviously going into overtime. But it did feel like the blues really got back to doing a lot of the stuff that they did that made them so successful throughout their run through the Western Conference and really dictated the terms of Game 2. And, and, It felt like by the end of that overtime period and by the time that Gunnerson finally scored the game winner, like it felt like a bit of an inevitability just based on how badly the ice had been tilted for at least a handful of minutes there in a row. Yeah, it was an overtime game where it felt like the result was justified.

You know, because sometimes in those overtime playoff games, you know, somebody gets a flute goal that, you know, that they steal a win, they probably didn't deserve or, you know, somebody just got a little bit lucky. but I felt like that was the ending that game deserved just based on the way St. Louis had played for most of the night and especially in overtime where they just completely took over the game. And Boston just, they made them look a little bit worn out. And that was kind of surprising to see because Boston's been the more rested team

and the team that's had, I don't want to say the easier path, but they kind of have. And they just made them look tired. They made them look slow. and I thought, you know, St. Louis, they got the result they deserved. They did, which is kind of rewarding because, as you mentioned, sometimes in these games, we don't always get that. And they definitely earned that victory and outplay them pretty thoroughly as the game went on.

I mean, the shots were 37, 23 in their favor, according to the point hockey on Twitter, which everyone should be following, like the Schla shots are 1910 for the Blues. The rush chances were 8 to 4. So they clearly dominated both the quantity and the quality of the looks all game. And I thought especially in those, what, it only took four minutes for the overtime winner, but they were just peppering rask throughout that stretch. And in particular, you know, Brandon Carlo got caught out there. And it was a mess.

I don't know what you think of Carlo as a player. Like I think he's such a fascinating talent because he certainly looks the part. I believe he's listed at like 6'6 or whatever. and he can skate well. And when he doesn't have the puck, he looks really good. Like, he effortlessly glides up and down the ice. He's awesome at defending his blue line. He uses his reach really well to disrupt what the other attackers are trying to do.

But then as soon as he gets the puck, it's like he forgets how to play hockey or he's never learned how to do it. And he's like, oh, now I got to focus on moving while also having this puck on the stick. And I got to remember to bring it with me. And then, like, you can kind of, like, see the wheels turning. And it falls apart. And he turned it over twice there. and then took the delayed penalty,

which allowed the Blues to get the extra attack around ice and led to them causing a bunch of traffic in front of Rask. And I thought that was a pretty telling sequence. Yeah, I think that's a pretty good explanation for what Brandon Carlo is. I think he's a really good defensive player. I think that he's almost, he's kind of like what you want in the modern-day defensive defenseman. You know, he's a bigger guy, but he can still move, and he can still defend really well.

But like you said, once he gets the puck on the stick, he's not going to do much for you. That's not where the offense and their blue line is going to come from. And I think the numbers throughout his career kind of bear that out where he doesn't put up a lot of points, doesn't get a lot of goals, doesn't seem to spark the transition game very well. He's just a good defender. And when he gets stuck out there for as long as he was

and he gets stuck making the mistakes that he made with the puck, sometimes plays like that are going to happen. and Boston got burned by that last night. Well, and he's had the good fortune, especially of late, of being paired up with Tori Krug, right? And so they can divvy up the responsibilities very nicely there where Carlo kind of is the guy more traditional, defensive type, where he's just kind of taken up space

and clogging up the passing lanes and defending the blue line. And then as soon as they retrieve the puck in their own zone, Krug either leads the transition himself or basically soaks up the forecheckers and allows a free lane for Carlo to skate it out of the zone. And that kind of is a good transition point or a good pivot point for us to talk about Matt Griswick because, you know, he goes out in the first injury, first period with a pretty nasty looking injury and we'll still see what his status is with a couple days here to go game three. But it looked pretty bad and I wouldn't be surprised to see him miss some time with what looked

pretty clearly like a concussion considering his head just slammed right into the boards. And, you know, I don't, I think the whole topic of was that a dirty, hit, did Oscar Sanquist mean to do it, was two minutes enough? Should there be supplementary discipline? Like, I'm not really interested in that topic at all, to be honest. I think what's much more interesting from the Bruins perspective here moving forward is clearly they missed him in game two. And looking ahead, he is such a big part of that transition game for them where you're not going to get much from guys of Carlo and Chara in that regard. And it's the Matt Grisleks and the Torrey Krugues and the Charlie McAvoy's on their team that

carry such a heavy burden on that end of the ice and he's not necessarily a massive household name or you know he doesn't put up a ton of points but i've talked about him a ton on this podcast and he's just so smooth and he rarely ever makes mistakes and he is so good in moving the puck off the ice for them and if he's not going to be able to go um you know if it's john more whoever else enters the lineup i think it's going to be a massive uh drop-off an ability for them both on that third pairing, but also it's going to be asking guys, like, I mean, we saw Charazai's time go north of 25 minutes in game two. We saw Connor Clifton have to play on his offside a bit and do some stuff that he's probably not comfortable doing either. And then all of a sudden, it's not

just the loss of Magr's looking the lineup. It's sort of that trickle-down effect of really stretching other guys thin and asking them to do stuff beyond their capabilities. And I think that would be a massive, massive concern if I was, you know, a Bruins fan or Bruins supporter or someone in that locker room. Yeah, I'm actually planning on writing about this today for NBC. And I thought the game really changed when he went out. Because like you said, he is one of those guys that can lead that transition game. And he does it on the third pairing. And, you know, that third pairing still needs to play its minutes.

And they still need to, you know, they still need to make things happen. And when he wasn't there, you're not only down to five defensemen for the rest of the game, you're without one of your guys that feeds into what you do. and they just don't have, I don't know that there's a guy they can insert into the lineup and that they're in pairing, they can replace him.

And then if you have to play Charo more, if you have to play Carlo more, we've talked about their shortcomings at this point, that's going to be a problem for them. And, you know, I think, like you said, he's not a big household name. He's not a name that I think a lot of people

really know or know what his game is all about. But he's an important part of what they do. And he's really blossomed this year. and especially lately in the playoffs, and him not being there, that could be one of those injuries that maybe kind of shifts this another direction. And, you know,

we'll just have to see what his status is, but if he's going to miss some time, I don't think that's going to be a good development for the Bruins at all. No, especially considering how much they do, you know, balance out their lineup and how much they spare out the wealth, they don't necessarily rely.

I mean, Charlie McIntyreiber clearly plays more than anyone else for them and carries that sort of traditional number one defenseman type of workload. But, you know, they don't at this point of his career want to rely on Zinojaro, even though they are so close to the finish line to play those types of minutes. Because as we've seen throughout this postseason, and I think especially as we've seen in this series, he's very limited in a lot of regards. And the Blues can pick on him a little bit here and there in transition. And so if the Bruins want to really roll their three defense pairings and spread that out evenly and keep everyone as rested and fresh as possible so they can be firing on all cylinders, then clearly not having one of those guys who drives that third pairing for them is huge. Because as we saw in game one,

I mean, Connor Clifton got a lot of the headlines for the goal he scored and how active he was moving up and down the ice. But just having those two guys kind of play off each other. It was like a poor man's version of what we saw from Kail McCarr and Sam Gerard in round two against the sharks where you just like go against convention and have two undersized guys who skate incredibly well and who are just kind of probing and creating a bunch of space for each other by attacking rather than just sitting back.

And so if all of a sudden you take that element out of the picture, you're right. I think that is a big part of what the Bruins do so well. And it's kind of what I've been trying to hammer home in the preview for this series and talking about it so far. It's that these aren't the big bad Bruins. These aren't the team that we saw in 2011 or the team that we think of when we talk about the Bruins. This is a smooth, skating, fast team that likes to play at a big, at a strong pace

and get up and down the ice as quickly as possible. And when you subtract one of the guys who allows them to do that, then all of a sudden they really have to go back to their drawing board and figure out how they're going to play against his blues team because I did think that sort of speed advantage was one potential area they could capitalize on them in this series. Yeah, and you talked about how they like to spread out their deep pairings and they, you know, Charlie McAvoy is obviously their top guy. Even he doesn't play as many minutes as your traditional number one defenseman does in the playoffs. And I think I think he's like at 24 minutes a game right now, which is still a pretty high number. But it's, you know, we're used to seeing guys this time of year, you know, the top guys play 27, 28, 29 minutes a game. And they do a really good job of balancing out who they play.

And I think it was the Chicago teams. And their third pairing would only play like six minutes a night. The David Runblad years? Yeah, like their top four guys would all play at least 24, 25 minutes. And, you know, McAvoy is really the only guy that they have at that level. even charred now is only like a 20 minutes per night. I don't have the numbers off top of my head just going off memory here but yeah I mean you take grizzlic out of that that's that's going to really impact that and you know no disrespect to John Moore or any of the guys they're going to put in

that lineup I don't think they're going to be able to do what grizzlic has done for them and you know I think they just have to hope for the best with him that it's not as bad as it looked when he had trouble getting off the ice if if the listeners take one thing from this conversation it's that you meant full disrespect towards john more i just want i just want i just want that to be clear um no you're right and that was like that was a great throwback that that i think it was david run blad it was like nick letty before he got traded to the islanders i remember those years where i think and michael rooseball was still one of those guys oh yeah yeah on the very like very very last legs michael roosevelt like 47 year old michael roosevelt yeah that was good times good times

i do remember that um yeah no it's it's it's i mean 24 minutes at this point of the game Certainly isn't a lot, especially considering there's been a couple overtime games. I remember they went to double overtime with the Blue Jackets once, and they've had a few of those. So certainly they play their defensemen much more differently than both other teams, and it's a big loss. But, you know, when we look at the forwards, because I'm so fascinated with the X's and O's here in terms of the matchups and with the first two games being in Boston, how Bruce Cassidy would go about trying to slow down while Tarasenko's line and match up against Ryan O'Reilly, and what he would try to do with his forwards, and what I did notice in these first two games, which was incredibly bizarre, was their usage,

and I guess part of it might just be like going with a hot hand because Charlie Coyle and Marcus Johansson have been so good for them. But especially in game two, those two guys in their line played about 15 minutes of five-on-five time, and Bergeron and Marchand were down at 11, which was like, I think only David Bacchus played less amongst forwards on the team. And so it was bizarre, like, that we would. would have thought at this point, especially considering how close they are to the finish line here, they only need three more victories, that you would just ride those top guys and get them out

on the ice as much as possible. And instead, they've been really playing some other guys, and we've seen a ton of that fourth line, which has admittedly been very productive for them scoring a couple goals already in these two games. But whenever you're relying on Nordstrom, you know, Achari and Corali to be playing against Slater Sanko's line a lot, you're playing with fire. And it's just bizarre to me that the Bruins have gone that route, I guess, Maybe it is just true to form and what they've been doing for all postseason that's made him successful. But I would have thought that things would have gone a bit differently in these two games from just a sort of matchup power versus power perspective. Well, yeah, especially because that's kind of the strategy Cassidy lined out at the beginning that he was going to go power against power and put the Berger Run line out there against the Shen Teresanko line.

And I'm just looking at the ice time from last night. Burger run only played 16 minutes. I mean, that's bizarre. Yeah, Pastor Nike played 18. Marshawn only played 18. And Charlie Hoyle played 19 minutes. I mean, he's playing really well in the playoffs. He did score a goal.

But, I mean, it's still Patrice Bergeron and it's still Charlie Coyle. I mean, there's a very big gap there in terms of what those players can do. And even, you know, Bergeron in those 16 minutes, he still had five shot attempts. He had three shots on goal. I mean, he, you know, I didn't get that either. and, you know, I think at some point you have to, I know coaches like to stick with the hot hand. They like to ride the guys that are playing well, but at some point you have to kind of, you know, what common sense take over there and say, hey, this is still Patrice Bergeron and he's still my number one guy.

And I need him out there in the biggest games in the season. No, absolutely. And I'm very reluctant to bury him because I remember the start of this postseason, he looked a little off. And I wondered and speculated if he was hurt. And then, you know, he just rips off an amazing throwback. game where he scores two goals and sets up another one. But even if Bergeron himself is banged up, it still doesn't justify pastor and act only barely getting 18 minutes, Marchand only getting barely 18 minutes and still being, I mean,

they were playing the same amount of ice time as, you know, like you said, Marcus Johant, or Danton, I mean, that's not what you expect from this. Well, I think two things happened there. I guess they're related, but I think they started uncharacteristically poorly. like if you look at the minutes that Pastornak was playing with Bergeron and Marshawn at the start they got hammered a little bit very like very surprising considering what we expect from them

at 5-15 and then as the game went along I think Cassidy just for some reason decided to mix it up and and put the lines in a blender a little bit and he moved Pastornak down to play with Creachian, the brusk and move David Backus a bit down the lineup and I will see if that obviously holds moving forward I think those three guys have been so good together and have such a proven track record that I imagine regardless, we'll see them back together at some point. But they clearly need a bit more from them.

And, you know, this is an entirely different story of Bergeron. Obviously, capitalizes on one of those great slot scoring chances that he had, which I think he had a couple of in game two. And Marshan was still creating stuff. But you're right. I think it was just ultimately a poor game from them. And I'd expect if we've learned anything from them throughout this postseason. And over the years, it's that they're probably going to have a monster game three. And the Blues should be very concerned because they're certainly due after this.

big of a stinker. Oh, for sure. And especially with their backs kind of against the wall a little bit, because they lost home ice advantage. You know, the series has evened up. It's now best of five. And, you know, I would expect these guys to respond because they've done it before. And they're just, they're elite world-class players. And I don't think you're going to get too many consecutive clunker games from them. You know, give credit to the blues. They credit, they struck when they had the opportunity. But I don't make you're going to see that version of the Bruins too many times in a row. No, you're not. I don't let's give credit where it's due.

I mean, they didn't necessarily go head to head as much as we were thought. You know, Tarrsanko's played 32, five-on-five minutes in this series, and only seven of them have been against Bergeron, which I find very surprising. And for comparison's sake, he's played over 12 against Sean Corrali. So considering, I know the game is a lot on the fly, and sometimes you can't control this stuff, but you would have thought the Cassidy would do a better job of maybe at least flipping those two numbers. but, you know, Chen Sports and Teresenko have been absolutely dynamite. They've been the three best players and easily the best line in this series.

So far, they've combined for three goals, 21 shots, 10 scoring chances in the first two games. Like, it's been great to see. And I know Teresenko was, I don't want to say much, belined, but people were certainly calling his play into question earlier on this postseason when he went on a really long, extended run of not really producing at 5-1-5. And since about the first couple games of that Shark series, it feels like he's really turned it on and he's gone on one of these patented gold scoring benders that he's become known for.

And assuming this continues, obviously that's a great sign for the blues because when he's not only producing like this, but when he's so involved in the play and he's creating and just using his kind of unmatched physicality to, you know, throw defenders off of him and really cause havoc in the offensive zone, that's obviously when the blues are at their absolute best and they need more of that from him moving forward. Yeah, I mean, when he's going like this, he's a tank that you just, you really can't stop. And it's funny that I thought in the first couple rounds, if you look at his underlying numbers, he was actually doing a lot of really good things. Like his possession numbers and scoring chance numbers were, you know, they were among the best on the team.

He just wasn't, the puck wasn't going in the net for him. He was still getting shots. He was still getting chances. It just seemed like he was due to go on one of these runs and starting with game one of the Western Connors. conference final he's just taken off and he hasn't stopped scoring since he missed some time last night because there's a little bit in the locker room with you know he's banged up or something so he only played it was quote unquote equipment issues uh i think he might have been out it might have been just going to the to the bathroom i think he might have been a possible too but it cut his

minutes down a little bit so he was only around 16 minutes he still finished the night with eight shot attempts and four shots on goal then he scored the goal which was just an incredible play i mean that effort there to on that two on one to you know the initial shot gets blocked by chara and then as he's falling away from the net he still gets enough on it to put it in just unbelievable play in a huge situation and you know i i feel like i feel like he's kind of almost been underrated throughout his career because you know he every year you know he's going to score 35 40 goals every year you know he's going to have like around 70 points he's just a dynamic player but because he's a he's always played on a blues team that really hasn't done much, and you kind of forget about

him. And I think a big series here kind of elevates his status a little more just because the spotlight's on him. And he is coming through in these huge moments. And he's playing his best hockey at the best time of year. And that's never bad for your reputation. No, certainly not. And it's kind of hilarious. It was at the time, but especially now in hindsight, I look back at some of those trade rumors earlier in the year when he was going through a shooting percentage lump and it's like, oh should they be looking to move off of him and it's like no no they definitely no they should not no and he's you're right i think just because they lost so many times in the first round to those powerhouse kings and black hawks teams he's only really had that one extended playoff run where they

lost in the conference finals of the sharks a couple years ago so he hasn't been kind of on the forefront uh on a national level but i think if you look at all of his numbers he's like especially throughout his postseason career he's been one of the playoffs premier goal scorers right and it's exactly what we'd expect from him. And I think I'd like to walk back a little bit what I said in preview this series. I did a preview last week with Andrew Berkshire, and we were sort of looking at some of these potential matchups. And I wondered whether Charra, who has struggled throughout this postseason might actually not, like this might not be the worst matchup for him because Teresanko, while he's a fine skater, I don't think he's necessarily as bread and butter isn't sort of that

blazing speed coming down the wing. It's much more of that kind of just like, you can't knock me off the puck. I'm just an absolute beast. And I thought if anyone can handle that, it will probably be Chara from a physicality perspective. But so far in this series, he's kind of gotten past him and created stuff a number of times. And I don't want to put too much on Chara's plate for that ridiculous goal. Teresanko scored because it was like a bad. Yeah, it was a great play. And it was a bad pinch and kind of left Chara in an unenviable spot where he was basically like trying to defend three guys at once and almost even made it work.

But as this series has gone along, like it's no surprise that both. Teresanko's on his numbers in terms of what the blues are doing on an offensive perspective are so high and Chara, who's being matched up with him, is struggling and his numbers look so bad compared to the rest of the team. And I do wonder moving forward in the rest of the series, like if this is going to continue, that seems like it is going to be a problem for the Bruins. And maybe I underestimated just how big of a difference maker Teresanko could be in this head-to-head matchup. Yeah, I mean, and he's just, he's on a tear right now. It was an eight straight game to the point, at least, and he just, he looks it too.

Like there's sometimes where a guy goes on a scoring streak where you don't really notice him all the time. It's, you know, maybe kind of a little bit of luck-driven, shooting percentage-driven. When Teresank goes on the ice, he looks like a guy that's just taking over games and dominating. And it's like you said, you can't knock him off the puck. You know, he's such a strong player and such a,

and I say this not in the sense of his speed, but he is a strong skater. Yeah, he's really, it's, he's, he's, really impressive to watch. And that line is just clicking on all cylinders right now. It is. And I guess the scary thing for the Bruins or the even more promising thing for the blues is that it's all been a 5-15 so far, right?

And it's so different from what he was doing in the start of the postseason. And we still haven't really seen him get cooking on the power play where he's ripping that just patented wrist shot from that left circle, which is a thing of beauty to watch. And so I'm sure that's going to come at some point as well, especially as the series transitions to the blues. and maybe they get some more favorable calls from the officials. So it's, yeah, no, it's funny how this stuff changes. This is why I waited until after game two to talk about this series.

I did want to see more than just the one game. And now we have a couple days off before game three. So we can really kind of let this sink in and think about this series a bit more because we do get so reactionary after this stuff. And I imagine if we had this conversation after game one, it would be like, oh, man, or the Bruins going to sweep this series? this looks like a terrible matchup. The Bruins have won eight in a row.

The blues look like they're skating in sand compared to this team and look like they're out of their league. And then all of a sudden after game two, it's like, oh, the blues are going back home. Teresanko is on fire. So it's funny how much this stuff changes and how reactionary it is. And I know why that's the case,

but it's still sometimes I do wish we could got to just take a step back and let some of this stuff play out before we proclaim everyone, the Stanley Cup champion after just one game. Yeah, that's talk. to do sometimes in the playoffs. It is. I mean, you know, it's, there's such short series and so many little things can change them

so quickly. Like, if you fall down one or two games, that could be the difference. And so, I mean, I understand why people are reactionary the way they are. I mean, coming into this series, I got the sense that everybody was expecting Boston just to roll through it. I don't know if that's because we're so used to seeing Boston win championships and everything and we're just tired of it or what it is. but it just seemed like that was the sense I was getting

that everybody expected Boston to just crush. And then once they won the first game, it's like you said, is St. Louis even going to win a game? And it's, you know, it changed really quickly. Now St. Louis has evened it up. They're going back home. And, you know, they're playing really well right now.

So, yeah, we definitely are prisoners of the moment sometimes in this industry. We certainly are. Well, okay, let's put ourselves out there a little bit now. let's try to sort of tee up some of these games that are going to happen in St. Louis moving forward and kind of outline some stuff, I guess, what are we looking for? What are you expecting to see, especially in game three, but I guess even moving forward into game four and further on, like are there any certain matchups you're looking for? Is there any sort of, you know, little things here or there that you notice from games one or two,

or you haven't seen yet that you were expecting that you are still looking for moving forward or just kind of what's catching your eye on this series so far that we haven't talked about? it. Well, I mean, we kind of talked about it a little bit, but I'm kind of curious to see how Boston's going to handle the matchups on the road now, because they had these first two games at home. And we talked about what happened in game two where they really didn't get a lot of Bergeron against, you know, Teresenko and Shen. How are you going to do that on the road? I mean, obviously, like you said, there's a lot of on-the-fly stuff. You can't always control the matchups. And I think sometimes you can get a little too caught up in chasing the matchups.

up, but you still want to get that sometimes. You want to get your best defensive players out there against Vladimir Tarasenko a little bit more. And if you couldn't do that in games one and two at home, I think it's going to be tough to see that happen in games three and four on the road. And, you know, the way St. Louis is going to be coming into that game, you know that building is going to be a madhouse in game three. You know those first 10, 15 minutes are going to be, if everything goes according to plan for St. Louis, that's going to be that storm you have to weather on the road.

I just wonder how Boston is going to be able to match up against that if they couldn't get those matchups at home. Yeah, I mean, as nice as having secondary scoring and depth offense is for the Bruins to win this series, they're clearly going to need more from those top guys. And you're right, I imagine with Broubaugh having the benefit of last change, I think they're going to see a lot of both Pariko and Beaumester, but also Ryan O'Reilly's line against Bergeron.

It's going to be really fun from our presentation. perspective to watch that because we haven't seen as much of that sort of dream matchup of those two guys going ahead to head as we would have thought in games one and two I think we're going to see a lot more of it moving forward and who knows maybe that like that sort of kind of power versus power thing might ultimately wake bursoran up a little bit and spark the bruin's offense but it is a very difficult matchup just because with preco and Ryan O'Reilly out there there's so little room on the ice to navigate and you really need to be really precise with all your passing and and every everything to create any sort of offense against them.

And I think from the Bruins perspective, I think it's a great point that you mentioned that the blues crowd is going to be absolutely electric. They were so good in that Western Conference final, I thought. And it's going to be a tough building to play in. Now, the last two times in the last two series, when the Bruins have gone into both Columbus and both Carolina, which I also thought had amazing crowds themselves, respectively, Rask was just on another level. And especially in that Carolina game three, I believe, like the hurricanes came out down to O and they just threw like 20 shots on net or something and had so many chances.

And Rask was just like, yeah, you guys are not scoring tonight. And he was just on another level. And he sort of allowed the Bruins to settle into the game and weather the storm. And as soon as they got past that, they started creating some stuff offensively. And you could feel the hurricanes kind of just become demoralized and realize they missed their opportunity. And I think that's probably going to be the blueprint again here because I imagine. especially as game three starts out it's very hard to envision the Bruins just completely dictating the terms and dominating the play it does feel like it's going to be a little bit

of okay Tuka like we really need you to be our best player right now for a little bit until we get our legs under us the the Tuka storyline is one that I've really enjoyed this postseason because it just seems like every year he's the scapegoat for that team within the city of Boston and I've always said my favorite rivalry in sports is Bruins fans versus Tuka Rask because there just seems to be so many of them that just don't appreciate how good he's been. I know he's not the same player he was four or five years ago, but he's still really good and he's still capable of going on these runs where he can carry them and he's done that this entire postseason. And I feel like the only thing that's going to get

Bruins fans as a whole I don't want to say all Bruins fans I know there's some that appreciate him but there just seems to be that very vocal minority that is always looking to get rid of him, always looking to pounce and they're almost waiting for him to make a mistake or have a bad game it seems

and it's almost like the only thing that's going to silence that is if he actually leads them to a championship and he has been so good in these playoffs and you know that Carolina game was a great example he pretty much you know was the last nail in the coffin for Carolina in that series

with the way he came out in game three and once they didn't score on him early on it was just like they were resigned to defeat and he's had that effect on teams this postseason I think where he's just been able to get in that zone where nothing's getting past him it's almost like the way he played in that

2013 run when he went through that that Eastern Conference final series against Pittsburgh only gave up two goals and you know had the had the Bruins won the Stanley Cup that season and he would have been the cons might winner. And I think that's the same thing this year, where if they do win,

it's pretty much his right now to lose. Well, yeah, and the revisionist history is so funny, though, right? Because it's a great point you mentioned that 2013, and then it's like, I think when you hear Bruins fans talk about it now and you hear people how they remember that, it's like, oh, he was bad in the last couple of games

against the Blackhawks, and he's the reason they lost. It's like, well, I don't know. There's also the reason they were there. Exactly, exactly, right? And it's like, I think that's ultimately going to be the lasting memory here. he enters the series of the 9 to 42 save percentage and he's been perfectly fine in game one.

He only had the 900 save percentage, but it was because the blues struggled to get the 20 shots by the end of the game. In game two, I thought he was terrific. He kept the Bruins in it and did everything he could until Gunnorson finally scored. But if he clearly, if they don't win this series and especially if it's because he lets in a couple goals, all of a sudden, I think there is going to be a bit of that rewriting of history. And we've seen it already a little bit here from a different angle, but I've seen a lot of people talking about sort of the paths these two teams took getting here this postseason. And, you know, you heard this a lot from Leafs fans going like, oh, man, like the Leafs really missed their chance this year because look at how

easy of a path Boston had after round one with Tampa Bay losing. They cakewalk through the rest of the east. And it's like, if Rask wasn't playing out of his mind in round two, I honestly, like, the Blue Jackets probably should have won that series. Like Rask was the best player in it, and especially in some of those games in Columbus where Boone Jenner had like five short-handed chances in a row. and they were just outskating them. It was really Rask that won those games for them. And so the Bruins, it hasn't been a cakewalk. Clearly, you know, they swept the hurricanes and they had a couple blowout games in there.

But Rask has been their best player. And he's been the best, most impactful player of this postseason up until this point. And so, I don't know, it's going to be fascinating to see how we stall are at kind of this, tipping point where the next couple games are going to determine how people view Rask, both career and his performance. and that's so silly considering the track record we've seen both this year and for the past whatever decade or so. Oh, for sure.

I mean, he's done this for so long and been so good. Like even now when he's kind of on the start of the downslope of his career, he's still above a league average goalie. And he still has these moments where, you know, he can carry you. And he's done that. But yeah, the other thing I want to see out of these next two games is how is St. Louis going to stay out of the penalty box? because you cannot keep giving that Bruin's power play unit as many chances as they're getting

because they are in such a tear right now. It's kind of funny because you think back to when they won the Cup in 2011, their power play was a joke. It was so bad. That was the big Achilles heel they had where every round they went into, the question was, how are they going to keep winning getting nothing from their power play? This year is the exact opposite, where the power play is kind of carrying the opposite. offense a little bit, at least from a goal scoring perspective.

And St. Louis, they took five more penalties last night. You just, you can't keep giving them that many chances because eventually the way these guys are playing, they're going to burn you. No, they are. There's so much talent there. And obviously, you know, we talked about how that Bruin's top line hasn't really had a chance to break through in the series yet. And that's one way where they certainly can.

If the Blues keep giving them power play opportunities and they get a couple easy ones there. And, you know, I preview this, but it's funny to see it. It's already happened so far in the series where the two Bruins power play goals they have scored have both been off the rush. And I believe the last six power play goals they've scored this postseason, they've scored them within six seconds of entering the zone. Oh, wow. I know, yeah. So that's clearly what they're trying to do and what they've been doing this postseason.

And it's interesting to see because so few teams do that, right? So many teams go for the conservative, like, let's get it in the zone. Let's dump it in. Let's retrieve it. Let's get it out to the point. Let's pass it around for 90 seconds and then, you know, shoot it into traffic. And at least we won't give up a shorthanded goal over these next two minutes. And they're opening it up much more and trying to create stuff before the other team can get set.

And so if you keep giving them opportunities, you really are playing with fire based on what we've seen from this postseason. And, you know, they only scored the one fireplay goal in game too. But the blues are playing with fire. And especially some of them, I mean, I know they got unlucky, especially with that last call where I think the referee is just saw the stick break and assumed that Braden Shen coming down on it was what caused it. And instead, it was just sort of a stick malfunction when he was just shooting the puck. It broke by itself. But there have been some kind of dumb, needless ones, especially by Sunquist, just like

pushing guys from behind and stuff like that. And so I know that's what the Blues want to do, like impose themselves physically and throw the body. And especially in front of that home crowd, I imagine on the forecheck, they really want to get in there against the Bruins defensemen and lay the body. body on them, but it is a fine line where you don't want to get into the sort of act of just chasing the puck and throwing hits just for the sake of throwing hits because that's when you get the late hits, the lethal interference penalties and so on and so forth. And that's exactly

what the Bruins want them to do. And so that certainly will be something to watch. Well, the stat that really blows my mind this postseason is Bergeron has six power play goals already. Before this season, he only had seven power play goals in his entire career. Wow. In the postseason. Yeah, in the postseason. Just absolutely blows my mind that, A, he didn't have that many before this. And B, that he's had this many this postseason where he's just been, you know, just on a tear on the power play. And yeah, I mean, that unit is is really fun to watch because they do score a lot. They do create chances. And I think the way they play where they try to score off the rush and they try to get, you know, make those plays, it does. It does.

does leave them a little bit open to the chances the other way. So it's a very high event power play where something is going to happen. And I think that's a big reason why they gave up so many shorthanded goals during the season because that's just the nature of the way they play. Where when you go for those chances on the rush like that, you do leave yourself kind of vulnerable on the backside. And, you know, it hasn't really been an issue too much outside of those Boone Jenner chances in round two. But, I mean, it. It definitely makes it fun to watch because I'm a fan of chaos and high event hockey. So I'm all about that style of play.

Oh, absolutely. From our perspective as viewers, it's a big win. And we haven't really seen much from Ryan O'Reilly yet in this series. And maybe that's an area where he can get going as well if he can create a couple chances off the rush shorthanded. So yeah, no, it's, I mean, I think ultimately, I'm not sure what the sort of widespread opinion is of this series so far. It did feel like people were big fans of game two just because it was so close and we get a Stanley Cup final overtime game and that's always a crowd pleaser. But I don't think these first two games have necessarily been played at a super high level yet just because like we saw in game one, the Bruins really elevated their play.

And the blues were kind of a little bit flustered and didn't know how to take that punch from them. And then in game two, they bounce back and the Bruins look really slow. So it feels like, and maybe that's just the nature of one team's playing so bad. the other team has to look poor to even it out. But we haven't really seen both these two teams playing at their absolute apex at the same time. And I hope we do get to see that moving forward because they both clearly, having gotten to this point, have so much to offer throughout their lineup. So I'd like to see a bit more of that. But it certainly has been an entertaining and captivating series.

And I think if we get, you know, three, four, five more games of, you know, a one-score game heading into the final five minutes, I think I'll be okay. with that because it seems certainly like the sort of entertainment level is uh is awfully high well i thought the first period last night was probably maybe the closest we've gotten to that because you had you know those four goals within a very short period of time and but then other than that it's been one team kind of dictating the play one way or the other whether it was boston in game one taking over the second half or st louis kind of taken over uh the second half uh in game two um but you know you look at you These two teams since the start of the new calendar year, they've been, other than Tampa Bay, the two best teams in the NHL in terms of how they play. You know, they are, I mean, this isn't some fluke matchup that we should really be surprised by if we're paying attention to the way they played in the second half of the season because they've been dominant.

But yeah, I agree. We haven't really seen them on their A game at the exact same time. And if we do, I think we're going to be in for an even better series and we've already seen so far. Yeah, gain 2's first period was certainly really fun. We saw four goals. Tarasenko had the highlight real goal. We also saw a guy get decapitated.

We saw a goal by a third parent defense winner Bob Burtuzzo, a bounce back goal like 20 seconds later by a fourth liner in Joachim Nordstrom. And one of the, or the Bruins power play goal was a miss too many men penalty because they had six guys on the ice. So that was certainly an eventful one that had people. It was like peak NHL bingo. It's like, fourth liner scored.

Yeah. Oh, questionable hit. Guy almost got murdered. Yep, we got that. Okay, missed call. Oh, everyone's upset. All right, cool. Yeah.

It's a great period. And a Robert Bortuzzo goal. Yeah. How can you be mad about that? Well, and this is, see, this is why we're broadcasting professionals because speaking of Bob Bortuzzo,

let's talk about the Pittsburgh Penguins. No, is there anything else? We will talk about the penguins. I do want to talk about Kessel on that trade, but is there anything else from this series? that we haven't we haven't touched on yet i feel like we've kind of gotten most of it yeah i think we've touched on on all the big stuff so far um yeah all right let's let's do that trade then um so i think both from the penguins perspective here and from the minnesota wild perspective

there's so much to unpack there's so many layers to this story uh and for those they missed that the proposed trade i guess was victor ask and jason zucker going to pittsburgh and then Phil Kessel and Jack Johnson going to the Minnesota Wild, and the reason why the trade fell through was because Phil Kessel, who has an eight-team list said, no, I don't want to go to Minnesota. And so that's why the trade didn't happen. And now what's interesting is that clearly both teams want to make a trade. I think at some point and probably around the draft, we're going to see Phil Kessel get moved,

and we will see Jason Zucker get moved. They just won't be for each other in the same deal. but I don't know, let's take this from Pittsburgh's perspective first, and then we can do the Minnesota part of things. I know you've been talking about this a lot, and I remember I did a Pittsburgh Penguins Deep Dive earlier in the season, and this came up as well, and it was like, I love when GMs acknowledge they made a mistake

and move off of that mistake instead of doubling down and trying to make it work even though it's clearly not working. Like at some point, you're going to make a mistake, whether it's via signing or be a trade, You just need to sort of cut bait and acknowledge that's on cost. And Jim Rutherford has done a really admirable job of doing that the past couple of years. The issue is that it feels like we've had to say that sentence so many times over the past 24 months that it's becoming a bit of a recurring theme where it's like he's acknowledging his mistakes, but there have been so many of those mistakes. Like why are making so many mistakes?

Yeah, it feels like we should like we should be talking about that a bit more than like commending him for moving off of these mistakes. And so it seems like, you know, now there's the Kessel component of this, and he's sort of the most movable, I guess, big, big item trade ship that they have where they can actually get something meaningful in return because despite all the rumors that of Guinea-Malkins going to move, that would be incredible silly and I can't see that happening. And so I understand things have gotten a little stale. And obviously with all the baggage that comes with Kessel, whether it's justified or not, they're going to try to move off of them.

That's totally fine. but a big part of this also feels like they're just immediately trying to get rid of Jack Johnson after giving them a five-year $16 million deal last summer. And I'm not going to, it's a waste of time to beat a dead horse and pat ourselves in the back for, like everyone should have seen this coming. But it's just that the fact that this is happening so soon after they just went on this media tour where they were like, you know, you guys don't know what you're talking about. Jack Johnson's actually really good.

It's just, it's amazing what's happened in the past year or so. So I don't know. Let's walk through all of this. Well, I believe Jack Johnson, if he gets traded this offseason, would be the ninth different player that Jim Rutherford has acquired and then gotten rid of within a year over the past two seasons. Where he's acquired a guy and then within a full season of that guy playing for his team, he's already gotten rid of him. which is an astonishing amount of roster turnover. You can't even keep track of it sometimes because it's just as soon as these guys come in, they realize they don't fit and he just gets rid of them.

And they've made so many moves like that where you just wonder, like, it almost seems like at times there's not really a set plan in place and they don't really have any idea what they're going to do with these guys. And they're kind of just window shots. They see something really intriguing and they like and they get it. And then they realize, yeah, I really don't have a need for this. Or this isn't what I thought it was going to be.

And they just keep doing that over and over. What makes the Johnson thing so bizarre is, like you said, they were so adamant about defending him all season. Like, they were angry about the criticism Jack Johnson was getting. And Rutherford was, he was really outraged about the way Johnson was treated at his initial press conference. we only had like one tough question that was basically how do you bounce back from a tough season last year and this just went on all year and now he's getting attached to a Phil Kessel trade just to get rid of him it's it's an incredible journey there but i think tessel is definitely on the move this summer it just seems that it's run his course between him and the coaching staff and the organization the players by all accounts love him his teammates absolutely love him, but he drives the coaching staff up the wall. I mean, he's obviously not a very good defensive player.

He wants to play the way he wants to play, and he has opinions. He's going to speak his mind with the staff, and I think that's something that doesn't sit well with the penguin staff. And there's a track record there where players that kind of speak their minds a little bit and kind of fight back a little bit, don't last very long with this staff. I think that's a big reason that Ian Cole got traded when he did. I think that's a big reason that Daniel Sprong didn't fit with the team

because even though he really hasn't done much, he has a very high opinion of himself. And he isn't afraid to speak his mind to the staff. And I think Tessel's that same way, and I think it's just kind of worn on everybody there. And like you said, he's the one big name guy from that core that they could trade,

that it probably wouldn't make everything around it crumble. Like if you trade it of Getty Malkin, you're shutting your window on the Stanley Cup. If you trade a Chris LaTang, you're totally sabotaging your defense because you don't have another guy like him and you're not going to find another guy like him. You trade Kessel.

Yeah, he's a great offensive player. He's an elite offensive player. I still don't think it's going to shut your window. know or really do much to damage your chances of winning. Personally, I think they should still be willing to hang on to him because based on everything I've heard, they're probably not going to get the type of return they want for him. It's almost like they're just making a trade for the sake of doing something to shake things up. And I'm not a fan of that approach because I think sometimes you make bad trades then.

And I'm kind of intrigued to see what they are able to get out of it. I mean, Jason Zucker would have been, I think, a pretty good centerpiece of a Phil Kessel trade because he is so much younger. He is a pretty good player. He's not going to put up the points that Kessel does, but he's a pretty good all-around player. I think that would be a good starting point. I just don't know how this trade's going to look. I have a lot of thoughts on Kessel, obviously, as everyone does. But before we get off of Rutherford, it does feel like, and I don't know how justify this is, but it feels like Tom Wilson. and got in their heads a little bit and kind of broke the penguins. Like, if you just look back at what made them so

successful when they won those back-to-back cups, obviously aside from having a couple of historically great players, which certainly helps. It was, like, if you just looked at the margins, they surrounded those guys, which they had failed to do so much under Ray Shero for so many years, was with these, like, youngish, fast guys who could skate and who could take advantage of those opportunities

and retrieve the puck's and get it. back to them and fit in alongside those guys and then along came tom wilson and threw a bunch of hits and then all of a sudden they felt like they needed to overcompensate by getting bulkier and getting stronger and more physical and a lot of those moves did seem like they had that kind of like at least backdrop if not very overtones to them and so it's an issue and and you know along those wines, I think the Ryan Reeves trade tree is one of the most low-key, outrageous things that people should be talking about more. So to tie in the Stanley Cup final to this with Oscar Sunquist playing such a big role,

so at the deadline, or sorry, at the draft two years ago, the Penguins trade, Ryan Reeves, or they get Ryan Reeves for Sunquist and the last pick of the first round, which wound up being Klim Koston, who I still like as a prospect. And I was like, okay, that seems like a wild overpay. whatever then after 60 games they trade ryan reeves and a four and a fourth and then like a bunch of other assets to get derrick broussard and then what after a year or less i guess how another half year they trade broussard and three more picks to get jared mccan and nick buchstead and and mccann look great playing next lacrosby and i think he actually does have legitimate upside and at the very least

yeah at the very least they'll be a third line center could potentially even be a top six wing for them scoring a bunch of goals if they want to go that route. But they basically wound up giving away two firsts, two thirds, a second, three-fourths, and their top goalie prospect to get Jared McCann and Nick Buickstad in that trade tree. After they got eliminated by the Islanders, I wrote like the Penguins post-mortem for the season. And the focal point of it was that it was two years in the making. and it was the Ryan Reeves trade that started this kind of downslide a little bit and it absolutely 100% is centered around Tom Wilson

and it started even before they made the Ryan Reeves trade. I remember the night before the 2017 Stanley Cup final against Nashville, Jim Rutherford gave that interview with Ken Campbell, the hockey news where he complained about how Crosby and Malkin were getting treated, how he hated the way they were being abused, and he was going to have to get some guys that could take care of it. They hadn't even won their second Stanley Cup yet, and he was already talking about changing their identity.

And he even admitted in the interviewer's like, I don't really want to do this, but I have to. And every move they've made since then, just about every move, has focused on them getting bigger and stronger and finding guys that can provide pushback. There was Ryan Reeves. There was the Jack Johnson sign. There was getting Eric and Branson from Vancouver.

And, you know, Branson actually kind of exceeded my expectations in the second half after the trade, but I still don't think he's a guy that fits the way they play. I very strongly believe he's going to be another one of those guys that plays less than a year in Pittsburgh and then he gets traded someplace else. but everything they did seemed centered around Tom Wilson and one of the most insane sequences of this season

involved Jamie Alexiak the big defenseman big defenseman you know physical guy they brought him in to be this big tough guy when Tom Wilson knocked Zach Aston Reese out of the playoffs last year Alexiac tried to challenge him to do a fight in that game, and Wilson wouldn't fight. Rutherford went nuts in the media after that, basically calling Tom Wilson a coward for not fighting Jamie Alexiak. This season, the first time the two teams play, Wilson fights Alexiak, and Wilson, like, knocked them out. Yep, like clean.

Legit clean knocked them out. Lexiak missed a lot of time. He returned to the lineup for two games. and got traded. For the same pick that he got traded for in the first place. It was basically like, okay, this guy isn't going to do what I want him to do, so I'm going to get rid of him because he lost the Tom Wilson basically. It was just an insane sequence.

We need to see an ESPN 30 for 30 on the J.B. Alexiak Penguin saga, because you're right, that is just bonkers. But yeah, I mean, whatever you think of Tom Wilson's contract with Washington, it's worth every penny for them just because it ruined one of their biggest rivals in their biggest competition single bandedly dismantled of Pittsburgh Penguins dynasty. Yeah

it's oh man hockey in NHL you gotta love it um okay but on Kessel though so I think you did a great job about outlining sort of where they're at with him and him as a player I've seen him described as an empty calorie score and I think that is

because he does have defensive limitations and especially a five on five a five a lot of what he might produce or might generate. They give back on the other end. Now, what I will say is I think sometimes as analysts, we get, and myself included, we get a bit too preoccupied with 515 numbers because it's obviously most of the game is played at 515 and we have the largest sample of it. And so clearly it's very important.

And it's really hard to also, there's fewer goals being scored at 515. So we tend to try to figure out who can swing that much more often. Now the issue is that I think we get into the trouble of sort of assuming that we kind of take special teams for granted, especially power play. I think we sometimes just assume that you can really plug and play any five guys and you're going to get a certain level of production. And the issue with that is that I watch the Carolina Hurricanes and the National Predators power plays this postseason. And I can report back and certainly say that not every power play is the same. And not every player is going to be productive and score the same amount of goals. And with Kessel, clearly having Latang on the point, Crosby on the half wall, you know, you have Afghani Balkin, like, you have so many different elite players that the opposing penalty kill has to gravity towards it.

I think sometimes we can sort of take for granted what Phil Kessel does or what he's capable of as a threat. But with his combination of his shot, and I think especially his playmaking ability and his passing, he really is the type of dual threat that you could conceivably. fully orchestrate or run your power play through. And so for any team that would be acquiring him, I think that would ultimately be a pretty large selling point, especially considering, you know, his contract isn't as onerous as you think with the Leafs having picked up a significant portion of it.

Like he does turn 32 and that's alarming, clearly that, you know, you don't want to be paying a guy 6.8 million when he's 33, 34, 35, he's not going to be this level of productive. but I think especially still in the power play, like he's going to have a couple more years of being a legitimate weapon for you. And so there's certainly any number of teams. Now, I don't know if they're the type of teams that he would want to go to and he would sign off on a trade for,

but that could certainly use his services as like a second line winger that they just run their power play through. And so in any trade, I think that's something to keep in mind because I did see, I feel like we've kind of, some people overrate them and then some people wildly underrate them. And no one has like a fair, just balanced take on Phil Kessla. And that's honestly how I feel on him where he's probably not as great as some people think he is, just based on his name and his point totals.

But he's also not as bad or as big of a dog as some others do that really just can't stand him as a player. So I think he's a very valuable player that a lot of teams should be trying to trade for. And assuming as you lay it out that the penguins have just sort of come to terms with the fact that they're going to trade them, and they now at this point are sort of part committed to doing it and want to do so. And they're going to settle for something less than a hundred cents on the dollar. I think a lot of teams should be calling and trying to inquire about what it'll take to get them. Yeah, and you know, power play goal counts too. They count too.

Yes. And they count from the same amount as even strength goals. And like you said, Carolina, Nashville, I mean, maybe their playoffs go a little bit different if their power plays could take advantage of their opportunities. and Kessel kind of did run the Penguins power play. I mean, he was kind of the guy that went through, not just because he's a great goal scorer. Watching him every night in Pittsburgh, like they've had the chance to do the past couple years,

I gained a new appreciation for how good of a passer he is. Like, I always knew he was a good offensive player, because I didn't see him every night up close when he was in Toronto. So you kind of focus only on the goal scoring numbers and kind of lose sight of the fact that he really is an exceptional passer. And that is especially true on the power play. And he is a difference maker there, even now at 31, 32 years old. And, you know, I don't know how he's going to hold up physically.

I don't know how he's going to age into his 30s. But I still think he's a guy that even as he starts to decline in a lot of areas, he's still going to have those skills on the power play that are going to, to make him a weapon there. And I mean, any team that trades for him is gonna be on the hook for about $6.5 million against the cap. That's not an obscene amount

for what he's still going to be able to provide you. You're gonna probably pay $7 or $8 million in free agency for a guy that's probably not gonna produce as much as he is. So, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think you're on the right track where he's a tough guy to get an accurate assessment on because everybody is so, you know, extreme on their Phil Kessel opinions and

nobody wants to budge off of them. But, I mean, I still think he's a player that's going to help whatever team he's on because he is going to be such an impact player on the power play. And even though he has his shortcomings at five on five, he still can make a lot of things happen there. And as a second line winner power play specialist, I still think he's going to be a guy that's going to put 70, 80 points on the board for you. Well, and I think the key here is that is only three years left on the deal, right? Which I don't take them into his mid-30s, but if you're just a new team and sort of the wrap on him, and as you mentioned, he can be sort of a bit of a difficult guy to deal with in the locker room,

just from a coaching staff perspective where after a certain point, maybe it kind of wears out as welcome. I think a three-year window is a very manageable amount. And if he hit the open market on some teams, sign him to a three-year, $21 million deal or something like that, I don't think anyone would bat an eye about it. That seems very, very reasonable. And that's basically what you're taking on. Obviously, you have to give up assets to acquire them in a trade. So it's not purely just a signing.

But I don't think the contract is as owners as people make it out to believe. But, you know, from the Minnesota wild perspective, I think it's even more interesting because, man, it's... I don't know what they're doing. Yeah, what in the sweet hell is Paul Fenden doing? I joked about this on Twitter, but it's like, you know, he comes from the David Poil's school of making. big trades and so he took over the job and he's like I'm going to put my put my fingerprints on this I'm going to make a bunch of trades but like he missed the days where David poyle was telling

everyone or his staff how to win these trades so he's just like all right I'm going to make a bunch of trades and then he's just like making them and and it is not working out like I still as well as charlie coil is playing for boston so far I do like ryan donato quite a bit and I thought that was a reasonable one I thought I love kevin fiala I thought they probably could have gotten more for michael granlin in a trade just based on what he was worth in the market but I'm perfectly fine with that. But it's like first the needer a needer rider trade and now I mean you talk about the penguins sort of just for whatever reason deciding they're going to trade Kessel and now being very desperate to do so. Like the whole Zucker situation is a bit mind blowing to me because it really does feel like they're just like they emotionally distanced themselves from him as a player.

And then it's like now they're just they're like desperately scrambling to get rid of them because it's awkward and they feel guilty. and so they're going to wind up trading them for whatever they can get just purely because they've already decided to trade them and that seems like a very terrible way to run your business. The thing that really confuses me about what the Wilder doing is they didn't have to make any of those trades that they made in the season. It wasn't like these guys were pending free agents, especially Nieder Rider. He's been one of your best all-around players for years.

So you make all these trades. And even if you like the Granland and the coil trades, which totally fine, totally understandable moves, the mindset and approach around all of those deals was getting younger and getting cheaper and kind of turning the page on a core that really didn't do much. And they still have a very aging core there. Almost all their top returning scores are 34, 35, 36 years old this season. So they make all these moves trying to get younger. And now you're trying to trade for Phil Kessel and Jack Johnson, who make you significantly older.

While taking on more money. While taking on more money. And it just seems to, like if you're going to try to trade for a guy like Phil Kessel, why are you trading Nino Nita Ryder? Why are you going into this kind of like rebuild on the fly mode where you're making all these moves to trade your veteran core guys to bring in fresher, younger players,

and then saying, oh, I'm going to go trade for Phil Kessel. Because that's the type of move you make if you think you're one player away from the Stanley Cup. That doesn't seem like the type of move that you make if you're trying to retool your team or kind of rebuild it. It just seems like they're not really sure where they are right now as an organization. And that would, I think that would concern me if I'm a wild fan because, you know, you look at the core they have coming back.

You know, Zach Porese is, what, 35 years old? Niko Kuiu is, I think, 3435. Ryan Sutter is 3435. Eric Stahl is in that same age range. I mean, and now you're trying to add in another 31, 32-year-old guy with a big contract. It's not like they're overflowing with salary cap space. um it just seems like kind of like a haphazardly thrown together team right now and i'm not really sure where they're supposed to be going or what the end game here is it's the worst place a team can

be that's sort of like direction direct directionless like stuck in the mud kind of just like you do make one trade to move forward from the perspective of getting younger as you mentioned as they were quick to point out and then all of the side you're going back the other direction and you're all over the place and and it's a big issue and you know, we were amissive we didn't point out that, you know, they had one of the best analytic staffs in the league, and now they're gone. And I imagine, I mean, anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of advanced numbers, not even just analytics, just literally, like math and stats and hockey would have told

them that the need or need a ladder trade was a disaster waiting to happen, and they still made it. And I imagine, I think the timing of all of this is like, I imagine there was some pushback on that or then being like yeah maybe we shouldn't do that and then paul fenton trying to prove that he's the smartest guy in the room because he's the GM and he came from a national predator's team that built themselves up into a contender and so um yeah it's it's it's a terrible way to to run a team and it's kind of just we're watching a train wreck before our very eyes and we'll see what they do with this but just based on some of the rumors of what they're trying to get for zucker i mean they

almost traded him for michael frolic at the deadline they're trying to trade him to the coyotes. I don't know what's going on there, but Zucker is one of those players. Like, we throw this term around way too much. We call guys underrated, and it's like, no, Patrice's Bergeron is not underrated. Everyone properly rates him. He's one of the best centers in the league, and it's going to be a Hall of Famer. No one's underrating him anymore. Jason Zucker is legitimately underrated, just because he doesn't really play or produce much on the power play, so his counting stats aren't at the level of a Phil Kessels,

but just based on any 5-15 metric, he's one of the best scorers in that regard. and that's a very valuable player even if it's not a first liner to just slot in on your second line and help them, let him drive, play and score a bunch of goals similar to what Nieder Rider was doing for them. And so whatever team gets them, I imagine, will have a very motivated

hungry player who's on a great deal, who is going to be looking a lot better than he has recently in Minnesota. And so it's interesting to see that they didn't learn anything from that Nieder rider experiences, I guess what I'm trying to say. I just wonder what's going through

Jason Zucker's mind right now because they've, this is twice now where he, like, his name has been out there as a trade that was almost done before it fell apart at the last minute. And, you know, you just, I think it was Michael Russo that had the rundown of teams they tried to trade him to. And it was like half the league. Well, and the wildest part, and I really don't ever like get into this stuff just because I try to focus on the actual analysis and on his production.

But by all accounts, he is a great guy who's, very firmly entrenched in the community and does a ton of great work off the ice and everyone loves him and i've never i've never heard like oh jason zucker he's a problem like i don't know like he's asking for too much and the and the coaching staff is irritated with him like we were just talking about with kessel so it's like this just the desperate attempt to trade him and for 30 40 cents on the dollar is just so so bizarre yeah it just and and i don't know again he's one of the guys on that team that's a part of their core that's still somewhat in the prime of his career. I mean, they don't have many guys that are under age 30 that are really good players.

And he's on a decent contract. He's a really good player. I don't get why he's burning a hole in Paul Fenton's pocket that he has to trade him immediately. But I don't know. Maybe like you said, they've gone so far to this point that they almost feel like they have to because it'll be awesome. awkward if he comes back.

Yeah. Like it's just, it's a very strange situation there. And it is, the wild have always been just a strange team to me because they've always been one of those teams that's good enough to make the playoffs. They're good enough to matter. If they were in any other division, they probably would have been good enough to win a round or two in a lot of years. But they were always stuck in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And they just never did anything. And now they're in a situation where they're just kind of stuck in limbo. And I don't know where they go from here. It's just a really bizarre scene to watch unfolding there. I don't know what their offseason is going to look like. It's going to be fascinating. Yeah, probably not great. I mean, I guess for our purposes, we'll have some stuff to talk about.

But yeah, for them, maybe not ideal. All right, Adam, let's get out of here. Plug some stuff. What are you working on? Where can people check out your work? you can find me at NBC Sports you can find me at Yard Barker you can find me at SB Nation on the on the Pensburg site um yeah so I'm keeping busy so awesome man well I NBC is my main one that's where you'll find me most of all covering the entire league um yeah so come check us out and try to cover the league in a

good way that's a very uh wow you're really selling people there trying to cover the league in a good way. All right. No, I highly recommend people check out your work and I'm glad we got to do this finally and get you back

on the show and we'll check in with you down the road, man. Enjoy the rest of this sounding up final. And real quick, before we go here, it looks like the Department of Player Safety just announced

that Oscar Sunquist has a hearing for his hit on Grizzlic. Ooh. Well, yeah, I mean, that's obviously a big deal just because he has been so effective for them on that fourth line.

So, yeah, I don't want to, I mean, talking about what suspension is worth and how much guy I should get is one of my least favorite things to do. This is a blast, man. Let's see it again soon. Sounds good.

The Hockey P.D.O.cast with Dmitri Filippovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockey pdfast.