The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 309: Guess Who’s Back

Episode Date: September 5, 2019

Thomas Drance joins the show to discuss his return back to the public sphere after his time with the Panthers, how that experience has changed his perspective on things, and the looming struggle between players and teams for power. 6:00 How a peak behind the curtain changes things18:00 The acceptance of analytics in league circles29:00 The NHL’s hiring process and prerequisites for executives 44:00 The pros and cons of the changing landscape for RFAs55:00 Stars wielding leverage and putting teams on the clock1:00:00 Game of chicken between the Oilers and Jesse PuljujarviSee acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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Welcome to the HockeyPedioCast. My name is Demetri Filipovich. And sitting across from me in my living room is as my girlfriend. good buddy Thomas Drance. It feels good to say that. It's been so long since we've been able to have a public conversation and just chat about hockey together. It feels very weird. I'm still getting used to it.

I'm going to have to mind my P's and Q's and my F words in particular. Now that I'm speaking about hockey publicly again, we'll see how I do. Hopefully there's not too much bleeping for you to do on the editing side after we're done here. Oh, it's a podcast. We can talk whatever and we can figure it out later in the editing process. Yeah, I guess it's been a while for you. Like, I was telling you that, you know, I've taken a little brief summer hiatus and vacation. And so I haven't done a podcast in whatever, five, six weeks.

And I was like, oh, man, I'm feeling a little jittery, a little nervous. Like, what are we going to talk about? How am I going to handle this? What do I need to do? And for you, it's been a couple of years now. So it must be an even bigger gap than the five or six weeks that I just went through. Yeah, no, I've been, I've been radio silent. I don't think I've been a podcast guest in three years, although I've done a lot of booking guests

for podcasts. It's been interesting to watch how podcasts have proliferated. You know, from the perspective that I just come from as a PR guy, the thing about a podcast is it's a pretty involved sort of media ask, right? If you're asking for player or personnel to be involved, you know, we're talking about minimum 20 minutes and sort of in an isolated room. And, you know, it's effectively like a sit down like you do for a rights holder, except, you know, you're sort of chasing an increasingly splintered sort of audience in doing it. So, you know, it was something we grappled with and something that I found pretty interesting and ultimately something we decided to launch with the Florida Panthers. We had our own team podcast. So, you know, that's a fantastic

medium and something I've always enjoyed listening to. I listen religiously to podcasts, including this one. Yeah, beautiful. Look at that. And it's a lot of fun to, a lot of fun to do. But, you know, from, uh, it's nice to be looking forward to being a guest on one and not dreading booking a guest for one. I'll, I'll say that much.

Well, I'm so jealous because like I, uh, you know, people, I've been asked like, kind of who are your, um, you know,

your idols in the podcast game or, or sports writers or kind of what, how do you model your work after them? And, you know, Zach Lowe is someone who obviously both through his writing, which is I think unparalleled in terms of like, providing useful information in like a fun and interesting way, but his podcast as well.

And he always has, I mean, he has his regular sort of rolodex of ESPN writers, but he also gets players and coaches on. And I guess over the years he's established like a rapport with them where they feel comfortable talking about stuff and opening up with him. And I've always been fascinated about that kind of taking the next step

with a PDO cast to do that with players or GMs or coaches. But in NHL, it does feel like there's such a divide there between like what people are willing to speak about publicly. And it makes sense considering you see like as soon as someone, someone says anything out of the norm or shows any sort of personality, it becomes like such a divisive topic and so polarizing that if I was a player or working for an organization, I wouldn't go out of my way to say anything remotely interesting. I would just be regurgitating all those cliches that you hear all the time on sound bites. Yeah, I think the, you know,

the exception of the rule seems to be spitting chicklets where players seem to feel pretty unguarded and don't seem to take a lot of shit. Let's, let's dip into the swear word jar early for what they say on that podcast. But it does seem like a, you know, unique space within the hockey media community and not just within podcasts, but as a whole. You know, that's almost like this accountability free zone where guys can go on with Bissonette. And no matter what they say, it doesn't seem to really sort of get beyond the confines of the barstool environment. But, you know, in the NBA, you've got, you know, C.J. McCollum has his own podcast. And even Zach Lowe, you know, he did a podcast, I think at Vegas Summer League with, you know, Howard Kurtz, I think, from the New York Times.

And I think it was Doris Burke. And they were, like, drinking at a teaky bar in Vegas. Yeah. And you could just hear sort of the restaurant noises. And they were getting increasingly drunk as the podcast went along. Howard Beck and Rachel Nichols. And Rachel Nichols. Okay, good.

Thank you. So they, but yeah, I mean, it was just weird. Like someone would drop off and you realize they were probably just mowing wings. Yeah. And, you know, even that, even that. I mean, it's just Zach Lowe, Rachel Nichols and Howard Beck, but you wouldn't, I feel like you wouldn't get that in hockey. You wouldn't have, you know, you're a hockey equivalent to those three in a bar eating wings and drinking sugary, teakie drinks while doing a podcast. It's just a sort of cultural difference.

And I do think it's one that'll have to evolve because we've seen how the NBA has engaged fans by just being insane all the time, 12 months a year. So, I mean, I think you provide a unique perspective now after the years you did spend with the Panthers and sort of what your job entailed on a day-to-day basis. And that's kind of what I wanted to get into this conversation about focusing on how much stuff has changed. Because you obviously, for people who don't know, you're one of the blogging, oh, geez, you got me into the game. You've been around the block a couple of times. You were there in the early years. And obviously, the entire industry and the dialogue and sort of what we're talking about, while some of it still is infuriating the same, a lot of it has changed. changed over the years, of course. And so now that you have this kind of unique perspective,

having dealt with like the behind the scenes and the inner workings on a day-to-day basis with a team, I'm kind of curious, you can take this any number of ways, sort of what's changed for you or sort of, is there something where you have an entirely different perspective or thought process on it now where you're like, wow, now that I know this, I think about this stuff I see on Twitter so much more differently. Like, you can take that any number of ways you want. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, there's one example that strikes me immediately. you know, one thing that I think about or that you notice immediately when you get behind the scenes and work, especially with coaches, is just how differently they watch the game from you or I and how much they see. You know, it's pretty remarkable and I don't mean to do any appeal to authority stuff, but, you know, their level of detail and their attention to it is really through the roof.

And, you know, I have a specific memory where, you know, it was right after the, you know, it was right after the, you know, you know, sort of a computer boy's whole thing. And Bob Boogner did an interview with Pierre LeBrun in which he talked about how San Jose Jose wasn't a possession team. Now, Bob is so detailed that by what he was saying by the San Jose Sharks, the team I came from, we're not a possession team, is he meant we're going to flip it out of the zone and trust that our speed can skate onto it and that we're going to out shoot our opponents that way.

We're not afraid to dump it in because we think we have bigger forwards than other teams. we think we're going to come out with the puck. Yep. So it wasn't that what Bob meant by that was we're not obsessed with maintaining possession as we move up the ice or transition. And what the internet took from that is, well, Bob Boogner doesn't even know what the San Jose Sharks coursey four percentages. Right.

Right. And it was this weird feedback loop where a coach actually had sort of a more detailed analysis of what, a team's playing style was than the underlying numbers. And he sort of was being criticized for being old school when in fact it was, you know, microstat driven essentially his perspective on on the club's priorities. And that's sort of something that stuck with me just because, you know, we live in this sort of polarized Twitter climate where people like to jump on things that don't match their particular worldview.

And there's a variety of different orthodoxies out there. and groups that subscribe to and espouse them. And, you know, when you sort of peel deeper, you get a lot more, a lot more, there's a lot more nuance that's left on the table. And sometimes what looks one way to the audience, seeing something on Twitter is in fact, completely the opposite.

And so that was one thing I really learned is, just how extraordinarily detailed a lot of those coaches are. And, you know, there's, not that they're beyond criticism and not that coaches don't have blinds, spots, but I do struggle with analysis now that begins with, this guy's an idiot or doesn't know what he's doing. They know there's a reason for it. And it would probably be worthwhile for people to assume a level of competence in sort of

trying to peel back layers behind decision making. I suspect that, you know, as a whole, that would improve the analysis that we're seeing in the public sphere. It's so tough because I can see it from both perspectives from like, you could go to, either extreme where I think you'd never want to sort of lose that like intellectual curiosity or that sort of fire to like question stuff and sometimes you see you can go the complete opposite way where maybe some more established media members that um you know have certain connections or certain um resources within teams they're never going to question those people and so they kind of just like

take whatever they tell them and pass it along to keep that rapport going with them and then you can it's sort of pretty transparent. You can see it from the outside and you can also be like, all right, well, just because this coach or this GM said this one thing doesn't mean we should all just be like, oh, well, they said it. So it must be true. Like, you can investigate that and ask questions and peel back layers. But at the same time, there is also like, Twitter can be an echo chamber and it can be sort of like everyone's always just looking for someone to mess up and as soon as they do or kind of they put their phone their mouth, all of a sudden everyone jumps on it and you start quote tweeting in and going like, oh, look at this idiot. He doesn't know what he's talking about. And it's like, it's also similar from the perspective of like there's certain teams now, whether it's like the Leafs with Caldubus or the Hurricanes with Eric Tulski, where they can do one thing. And you go, oh, I trust these guys. What a smart, savvy move compared to like if a dumb team or a team traditionally that's been a bit more old school does something, you're like, oh, here we go again. They're doing the same old stuff. And so it's funny to see how like our opinions can be shaped based on which team or which coach is doing or saying a certain thing. Yeah. And I think you don't want to lose, you know, as someone who

discuss as hockey on the internet or, you know, digitally, I don't think you want to lose that skeptical posture. I just think that, you know, we could soften some of our assumptions. I think the assumptions that begin, if you assume incompetence before you begin to do the work, that's sort of where you, I think, can run into some difficulty. And certainly, I've noticed that in reading coverage of the team I represented, but also in reading coverage of teams around the league. Yeah, no, I agree. I think for as far as we come, there's definitely a lot of nuance. And it's interesting because obviously you hear

stuff off the record or people pass along certain notes to you that obviously isn't publicly available information and that can certainly change the way you view a certain storyline or a certain headline. And so balancing those things is always I guess part of the job for us as writers and analysts.

But I don't know how I feel about it to be honest. I can go both ways on it where I think that's all the people I keep coming back to it where it's like it's tough because on one hand, I'm very skeptical of what a lot of teams are doing and what a lot of stuff that's being passed around and sort of how much really is going into it

and how much teams know compared to what's available publicly, but at the same time, there are certain things, I guess, that fans aren't privy to that would probably, if they were aware of it, would change the way they're thinking or talking about their favorite teams. Yeah, I think that's right. And that's completely fair.

And again, I wouldn't say that, I think it would be a disservice to recommend that people lose that, you know, skeptical edge, as I said. I think that it's a crucial tool, especially when sort of digging into what hockey teams are doing in the public sphere. I mean, you're always going to be operating off of limited information. But more than anything, I guess, you know, seeing what I saw, I think that there's just a level of savvy and intelligence beyond what the public, understands within the operation of an NHL team. And whether that NHL team is one you think is nailing it or not, the level of dedication, hard work, expertise.

I mean, it is really high across the board, certainly everyone I dealt with. So that's something that I think will inform how I write going forward. And I haven't written a piece, so I'm not going to throw stones at anyone yet, recording this on a Tuesday before I've, or sorry, recording this the week before I've written my first piece for the athletics. So, you know, there's, there's some work to be done, and I won't, I won't throw stones from my incomplete house, but that is one thing that, that has changed my perspective, certainly, from working on the inside. Yeah, I want to stick with that for a little bit because, you know, I imagine having worked for a team, there's obviously you can't engage in certain

public conversations and you can't just be as active on Twitter as you were before that. And, And, you know, I'm curious for your take on sort of, you know, especially like these like niche, like arguments that happen on hockey Twitter about player X and how good they are or sort of certain metrics we're using. Like having been out of the game for a couple years now and then jumping back into it, look, what's your perspective on that in terms of how far we've come or how much work there's still to be done or just kind of stuff that people are missing when it comes to. a player evaluation or, you know, team or coach evaluation. Yeah, and I think part of what interests me about that question, especially as I reacquaint myself with some of what's happened in that space and what's evolved over the past three years, you know, the fact of the matter is, is that I've been more interested in figuring out how to get on the 6 o'clock news on WSVN in Miami than I have been on, you know, following

the latest development on a summary war metric that, that another site's developed. You know, in looking at the landscape, I do think there's been a pretty significant brain drain. I still think there's an incredible level of knowledge among hockey fans, both those who are digging into analytics and developing new things and also among those who, you know, are just watching the games. Because I think there's, you know, savvy, savvy fans know so much about their teams. Your casual fan is so much smarter today than they were. So much smarter today. And then the other thing I'd say is it's been interesting to see. in the coverage out of, for example, Seattle and in the coverage out of Minnesota in the wake of the Fenton firing,

how analytics departments are being written about, right? They're being written about not in this sort of familiar way where it feels clubby, like, you know, this media member is sort of talking about a remarkable story about some blogger who's made it. But just as if it's the ordinary course of business, for criticism and screenings, just like any other part of an NHL team's operation, whether it's pro scouting or amateur scouting or player development. And that suggests to me a level of acceptance and professionalization that's pretty surprising and that happened really quickly. I don't feel like I'd read articles with that tone prior to maybe the past three, four months. But that to me represents

a level of establishment for the field that I think is a huge win. And it might be a mundane win, but it's a real thing. And that's sort of one change that I think I certainly noted and noted with wide eyes. But, you know, in terms of the field itself, I think, you know, I remain a little bit old school in terms of looking at some of the, it's weird to call myself old school now, but the, you know, CF percentage, PDO, you know, the way that that all fits together, the assumption of relatively fixed percentages at five on five, you know, that stuff all still matters a lot to me. And, you know, I suspect in digging into some of those summary stats and I've got a lot of work and studying up yet to do and I'm not drawing any

conclusions and I won't draw any conclusions for several months. But in looking through that, I haven't seen something that has, to this juncture, caused me to disabuse myself of my prior assumptions, which is, you know, some of those, what I'd now call surface level underlying metrics, right? I mean, that's a little bit of a oxymoron. But the basic stuff at this point still to me feels a lot more useful than some of the descriptive summary metrics that seem to be on vogue in hockey analysis these days. Well, while I certainly agree that there's been a sort of broader acceptance of like this idea that, you know, analytics has a place in hockey and, and there's, you know, at least I think every team has at least like one personnel that's doing some foreign analytics for them and within their staff.

I still think there's such a far way to go in terms of if you think of it from the perspective of like comparing it to let's say like a scouting staff or it's like wouldn't it be insane if you suggest to someone that oh you're going to have one pro scout who's just going to cover all 31 NHL teams or the 30 the 30 other teams and they're just going to do their own thing and they're going to file reports to the GM and that's going to be the extent of our scouting operation. And people would be like, well, that's insane. There's no way one person could possibly handle that much information and that much work. And that's what's happening with a lot of NHL teams still with their analytics, quote-unquote, departments where it's like one or two people that are just like tasked with this amount of work and data that they need to sort through. And then they're passing it along and who knows how much it's even being listened to by some old school GM. So I think there's a couple teams that are certainly building out actual staffs with four, five, six different people who are in a, being put in a, put in a, position to succeed in a creative workplace where they're asking each other questions and building challenging each other. But there's still for a lot of these teams, there's still like another

step to be taken beyond just that superficial, like let's just get one person so that we can point at them and say, hey, we're doing analytics. Well, absolutely. And I do think also the way that that information flows. I mean, you know, if you're building out a new department and calling it crucial to your hockey operations department, I mean, how does that information flow from XR&D guy, maybe through a director or not, maybe through an AGM or through a GM and then filter down to pro scouts, amateur scouts, coaching staff. I mean, you know, that's a tricky sort of thing to figure out, especially in, you know, a environment where analytics has been seen as aberrant or different or distinct or something to be compartmentalized within the usual flow of operations. So, you know,

I mean, there's no question that there's work to be done. But that that level of, you know, public acceptance, that boring article about how, you know, the Seattle expansion team is going to flesh out an analytics department or, you know, how an analytics department's information floater didn't within a front office and how that contributed to an owner's decision to fire a GM after 11 months. I mean, that's a level of, that's just a level of acceptance that analytics have never had and the fact that it's wrote now, the fact that it's boring, the fact that it's discussed, you know, the way that a coaching decision would be or a player development issue or, you know, a club's persistent track record misidentifying targets on,

uh, in terms of pro scouting. Um, you know, that to me, that to me just feels like a huge sea change from where we were, certainly when, when you and I got started, uh, back in 2013. Are you excited about, uh, jumping headfirst back into, uh, uh, online debates about whether a certain player is good or not. Yeah, I'm, I'm sharpening my takes as I, as we speak. I,

I, I need to find, you know, this September's Julius Honka or Chris Russell. Yeah. Um, yeah, no,

you know what? I loved that. I've always loved the, especially when it's done in good humor. I love that sort of like wrestling mentality that, that can come from hockey debates. And I actually think most hockey writers are pretty funny about them. I think a lot of hockey Twitter is really funny about them.

I think people don't take it that seriously. And I think that's something that's a little bit unique about the Vancouver market too is the way that people decide that they're on a specific team and then rep that team and sort of just stand for it, like the cape for whomever, right? And, you know, now you have what people are, I mean, I have people in my mentions to this day just talking about nothing who are, you know, I self-identify in their Twitter bio as a betting pro. And I just love that. It just feels like, you know, team gilly or remember team Luongo and Tim Schneids. And there were people who are team coho, meaning team Kodiakson. It goes

on and on. And I think that that's fun. I mean, that's got to be good for everybody, because that's the sort of thing that keeps people engaged and promotes the sport. It was really, that's why it was really funny. You were seeing when the Leafs acquired Cody C.C., it was really funny to see. You know, there was, like, some self-aware Leaf fans obviously that were like... Fun to C-C.? There you. Prime, Prime, season four.

Cushing it. There was some obviously we were like, I don't know why the Leafs did this. This is questionable. Like, just because he's not a leaf now, I'm not going to suddenly flip off completely. But then there's like, obviously, you're extremely Homer fans that are like, well, the more I think about it, CC's definitely got the physical tools. And it's like, you were literally making fun of him and the senators, like religiously for the past five years.

Like what? And it's obviously now as soon as he's part of your team, it's like, you must be good. The whole trick is to root for laundry, right? That's what you're, that's what, that's what being a fan is all about. And, you know, I understand fans who just want to view it positively, right? They just want to turn their TV on two, three times a week and root for the home team and believe that their home team is, is well managed and, you know, that's part of what they're rooting for. And so I understand those incentives. I mean, I think that's, I think that's good and wholesome and fun. And I don't think that anyone looking critically, as much as I'd like to say that we need to assume a level of competence. Yeah. I don't think anyone who's committed to breaking down the game or looking critically at how

a team functions, makes decisions, goes about trying to win games, can afford to, to, um, to, um, agree with that perspective or follow it too closely. But it's weird because I was talking about this with you before we were recording, we were talking about S.L. Lindellelh specifically, but you know, you go through this internal struggle as an analyst, but also as someone who just watches hockey, where it's like once that signing happens over the summer and the stars extend him, you know, people instantly put out the charts of his underlying numbers and his heat maps and how it's like, oh, his number and line numbers aren't actually good.

And you can certainly argue, like, in terms of, like, based on the dollars for, like, the output you're getting, you know, whether it's a good value, whether it's a good deal and so on and so forth. But sometimes, like, there's a certain players I enjoy watching that player where I understand why they're valuable. And I'm like, yeah, it's a good player. Like, I would like that player on my team, even though necessarily you can't point to one singular number that goes, like, this is why. And it's weird because I used to, I completely understand, like, the hypocrisy I used to be the guy who, like, were just trash writers for, like, latching onto their guys and loving them even though the numbers didn't support it. But now as you watch more and more hockey, you do sort of kind of gravitate to certain players. And sometimes it can be irrational.

And I think that can be okay too without necessarily having to justify every single opinion with a certain metric. Totally. And, you know, I was thinking, I don't know why, but I was thinking today about Brian Campbell. And I was thinking about how Brian Campbell got every guy he ever played with paid. Right. That was Brian Campbell's, the gift that Brian Campbell gave every pairing partner he had. And, you know, I was, I was sort of turning it over in my head and thinking, well, you know, if there's a Brian Campbell of NHL front offices, it's probably Eric Tulski, right? Yeah.

But I also was, you know, when you brought up Esselandelle, I also go back to that just because I remember thinking every second pairing guy guy. Who played for the Panthers during Brian Campbell's sort of prime run with Florida. And this was well before I was there. You know, I remember thinking, oh, that guy's bad, right? Is course you're else awful? But, you know, the fact is, is anytime Brian Campbell was on the ice, your team had the puck in the offense event. So that's going to make your numbers look worse. And I think there's some of that going on with S. Lindell.

And also, I just like guys who shoot the puck really hard. He's just fun to watch. And so, yes, fair point. Awesome. You must be really pumped up about when this player tracking data releases shot velocity for players. You're going to be just cranking those out on all your columns. Yeah, the player tracking thing will be fascinating to see how that plays out. I think that we're going to have to be pretty skeptical.

You know, I'm hoping we get something like pitch FX for goalies, for example, or pitch FX for shooters. I think that would be fun. But I think, you know, it's going to be years before we know what's predictive and what's simply descriptive. And it's going to be really fun to watch guys say that X player is great because he skates, you know, 20 miles per hour over the next year. I can't wait to be debating the launch angles. player's shots.

Oh my goodness. Velocity. Yeah, it's exciting. All right, let's take a quick break here to hear from a sponsor, and then we're going to keep this conversation going on the other things. Sponsoring today's episode of the Hockey P.D.O.cast is Seek. Now that we're finally mercifully getting out of the dog days of the summer and transitioning towards the fall, there's so many fun sporting events to look forward to.

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So enter the promo code PDO. And once you download Seek app and use the promo code PDO, you're going to get $10 off your first purchase. That's promo code PDO for $10 off your first purchase. Now let's get back to Thomas Trans and the PDOCast. All right. So I've tried to do some reading this summer, you know, during the season, especially like the playoffs and then free agency and the draft that just you kind of have to like go into a hockey bunker and I don't have time to do anything else. And then this summer I've been trying to spend some time outdoors and I've been doing a bit of reading. And I finally, you know, got into reading range by David Epstein, which was recommended to me by any number of people. And I'm only like 40 or 50 pages in right now, but I just find the content matter. are so interesting from relating it to sports, but especially hockey,

which wasn't the intention of that piece. But for those that haven't read it, it basically sort of posits this idea that, you know, we've been kind of taught as a society that you need to be like hyper-specialized and you need to be like, you just need to pick one thing to be good at it

and then just keep doing it over and over again until you become a quote-unquote expert, and that's all you're going to be good at. And Epstein basically completely brings that down and sort of just argues that the people who have, actually try a bunch of different things and bounce around different jobs and, and, you know, work on different skills are going to be better suited in the long run because they're going to approach whatever their final job winds up being or whatever

thing they're doing next from like a different, unique, fresh perspective. And I've given that a lot of thought from, you know, the idea of hockey front offices and executives. And, you know, most recently, as you're mentioning with Paul Fenton being fired by the while and then then bringing in Bill Guerin, you see a lot of, you see a lot of, of these hires where, you know, at least in Bill Garen's case, this is his first time doing this particular job. And he's relatively young, so to speak. And so we don't know that he's not going to be a good GM, I guess. Sometimes you see, especially with coaches, there's a lot of, like, recycling and a lot of turnover. It's like, oh, this guy's failed at three different stops,

but this time's going to be different because he's a hockey coach, and you see a lot of that. And I just, I don't know, I want to get into this conversation with you because I have a feeling that you're going to have an interesting take on it that might be different from mind but this idea to me that you have to have played professional hockey to be qualified to be an NHL GM is so wild because no pun intended I guess no with the Minnesota wild but like just this to make it to the NHL you have to be in like what like the top like one percent of like athletes top 1% of 1% yeah you have to be like a remarkable athlete just to even play any level of pro hockey and then get it to get to the NHL so you have you're basically blessed

with a certain physical skill set. And then to be an NHL GM or a high-ranking executive, you don't really use that skill set at all. You use a completely different set of skills with your thought process, your asset management, you're, you know, especially for a GM, you're dealing with so many different things and juggling them all the same time as a business person.

And you require this entire different set of skills. And so basically, if you're saying that this person is one of the best 31 options, to do that job, you're saying that they are also an even rarer breed in a completely different skill set. And that is just, when you think of it that way, I'm just like, how could you possibly make the argument that just because the guy's a former player, he's suited to be an NHLGM? What do you think about that?

Yeah, I think the fact of the matter is that it's going to be the skills outside of what they were probably largely evaluated by, even in interviewing, that determines success or not. And, you know, I know this is a hobby horse for a lot of people, and rightly so. I mean, I think the level of homogeneity in NHL GMs, GM hires is pretty remarkable. I think the level of homogeneity when you look across the NHL draft floor and, you know, it's striking. And so, I mean, there's no question that there's got to be something going on and something that's probably ultimately not super efficient in terms of identifying the best talent for the job. You know, I think that hockey is relatively unique in North American sports terms and that we've obviously seen baseball and basketball go sort of in a different direction. In football, it seems to mostly be football guys as GMs, though also the role of GM in football

is pretty distinct, and that owners and coaches seem to be a much bigger deal in the NFL than your GM. But if you look overseas and look at soccer, for example, it seems like a lot of the guys who managed transfers were former players, and certainly the best football coaches in the world right now in Pep Guardiola and Juergen Klopp were players as well. well. So, you know, there is, I think, a sense that it helps to lead. If you're trying to lead a group of hockey specialists, including a coach who played and scouts who mostly played, and on and on, you know, players, even players, right? I think it probably helps to be a member

of the club. It helps to have been through what players go through, what scouts went through in their playing career and on and on. I think that's sort of part of it. In an organization where, you know, your hockey operations department is 90% former players, I think to lead that department, you need to probably have that crucial bona fide. So I don't know that...

Who says you need to have all of those members of your hockey office department? So that's what I'm saying. I'm saying the issue to me is likely not at the top where we're giving it the attention so much as it's probably a little bit further down the tree. Right. And so that would be, that would be sort of my, the sentiment that, that I'd suggest to you as a rejoinder in looking at the analysis of the composition of, of NHLGMs.

Well, see, because like, I think from like a coaching perspective, let's say, I think I understand the argument where you would need to be a former player to be a head coach, because while there's a certain element of like, yeah, you could come up with all these groundbreaking tactics and, and sort of schematic things that could lead to better offense. you do need to kind of like have been in those shoes before to relate to the players and to speak to them on their terms and to sort of be able to manage those personalities and walk into the room and command their attention. And so I get it from that angle. I think from like a front office perspective though where I mean obviously you're interacting with the players and the people beneath you on a daily basis. But at the same time, just in terms of like the job description, there is a human element to it.

But also you are running a multi, multi, multi million dollar business. that I think requires a certain business acumen that I find crazy that owners are enlisting or entrusting in people who used to play the sport. I don't know. I don't know. Like, it doesn't necessarily. No, I mean, we've seen, listen, like Steve Eiserman and Joe Sackackack is doing a great job right now with the abs.

Like we've seen former players clearly succeed in that position. And usually they were with the organization in some capacity before. And so, you know, with Bill Guerr and he was with the penguins and he was their assistant GM. HL team. And so he's certainly not unqualified. But I just think that like when you're, you're basically eliminating such a large percentage of the population that might be

just as qualified, if not more, to focus on this one certain subset of predominantly middle-aged white guys. And it just seems crazy to me that you would make the argument that they're the only one suited for the job. And it seems like, I guess the only reason we do it that way is because we've always done it that way. But have we? I think the percentage of GMs who are former players now is higher than it was,

you know, certainly back in the original six days. Or, you know, I don't know if Sam Pollock has a hockey DB page, but if he does, it's not significant. You know, we all know Scottie Bowman stopped playing result of a head injury when he was, you know, in his late teens or early 20s and on and on. So, you know, I think that I think that we might be. So you're saying, it's getting worse? I'm saying it might be a relatively new development, that it's that it's basically exclusively the domain of the player. And then the last other point that I'd make, and this is in a defense, so much as just to add a layer of context, is while the NHL CBA is complicated and certainly is best understood by a lawyer or certainly someone with an MBA or certainly someone who's

with a keen attention to detail, at the very least, the fact of the matter is that the NHL with the hard cap system and relatively simple math that governs things like AAV, you know, it's nowhere near as complicated as the NBA or the MLB, CBA. So, you know, I don't think it's a huge surprise that what we've seen in those other sports hasn't happened here because the fact of the matter is there's a level of business specialization required to understand the NBA and the MLB, the rules of the road, as it were, that simply isn't to understand the NHLCBA front to back. So I think that's part of it, too. I think that it is a league that, for a variety of reasons, has lent itself to, you know,

the sort of singular type of candidate that we're discussing. NHLGMing. So easy. Anyone could do it, but only a certain number of people who are allowed to do it. Well, you know, and honestly, just does a thought exercise, and this isn't me saying anything, I don't want to get radioed here, not that I'm a big enough deal to be radioed. Yeah, no one's transcribing this more.

Yeah, good. No one's, I appreciate that. The fact of the matter is you have to look at, you know, if we're talking about GMs in particular, what do former players in particular have that not former people who haven't played don't, you know, it is a certain presence, right? it is a certain ability to appeal to business people, right? There's a reason why teams keep a variety of former players around,

not just to work in hockey operations, but to glad hand and to make connections within their city and to talk to season ticket holders and big name sponsors. It's exciting to be around players you rooted for. That's part of this as well. And the other point that I'd make that I think matters a lot is, you know, I came from an organization, obviously, in Florida that had a variety of former players, but also a variety of former military guys. And I do think there is a certain singular

effectiveness, perhaps. That's what I'll say. There's a certain effectiveness that I think lends itself relatively naturally to people who've participated in team environments, both in the military, and in professional sports where you've worked in a team environment toward a singular collective goal. And there have been a variety of factors that have gone into the success or failure of that goal. But ultimately, you're being judged in real time with real consequences constantly, right? Day to day. Obviously, the stakes are significantly different from one to the other.

But I think that brushing up against reality is the same. And, you know, one thing that I think people don't remember enough, about the NHL is you got a 23-man roster. You got 50 contracts. There's essentially 50 guys, 50 players in any NHL team who every shift of their life are going through a job evaluation, an interview process,

as it were, right? And whether they're interviewing for two extra shifts in the third period of a close game or, you know, for an all-star team or for a $10 million a year contract. I mean, they're constantly under evaluation and they're constantly judged on results that

sometimes are beyond their control, but that are real and that happen immediately. And I do think that going through that can create people with, you know, a singular focus, an understanding of what it takes to succeed as a group. And, you know, that that's not to be ignored either. I do think that people with military and team professional, high level professional sporting experience do tend to make good executives naturally. And that's the other thing I'd say. And that's not even necessarily just GMs.

That's team presidents. that's, you know, executives running a car dealership and on and on down the line. I mean, I think that is a real thing, too. Yeah, no, I'm not, listen, I'm not making the argument that there's no place in an NHL front office for former players. I just think that if you've kind of broadened your horizons or the scope of your GM search, I think sometimes it would lead to interesting results. You'd at least different sort of thought processes or ideas. Like, that's why I'm really going to be watching closely to see how Ralph, Ralph,

Kruger does this year with the Sabres and sort of what they do because I'm sure that, you know, having been away from the NHL for a couple of years and being in a completely different sport and a completely different environment, like I imagine he's going to come in with some interesting ideas rather than just sort of the same old stuff and recycling everything we've seen NHL teams do a year in and year out. So I'm not sure it might not lead to immediate results. It might wind up backfire. He might wind up getting fired. But I just love the idea that like something different and out of the ordinary is happening for a team that hasn't had the results they've wanted and they're trying to do something new in the pursuit of

changing their fortunes. No, absolutely. And, you know, the lack of innovation across North American professional sports is frustrating. I mean, I think that's genuinely, um, something that we see and that's not just hockey. I think that's, and it's not just North American professional sports. I think it's any setup where you are at least to some extent rewarded for failure. Um, you know, with high draft picks. And, and, and, on and on. I mean, I think there is a genuine lack of structural incentive to innovate. I think that's a real thing. And it's unfortunate because from a storytelling perspective, it means that there's less weird stuff to cover. You know, it would be awesome just from just purely from a storytelling

perspective to show up at a training camp one year. And a coach is like, well, we're going with four forwards all the time, right? Like, that would just be fun. I mean, it might not work out. But it would, it would be a lot of fun to see a coach be like, yeah, we're going to play a full season playing the torpedo system. Let's see how it works out. I mean, you know, sign me up from a driving subscriptions perspective anyway. All right. You know, this podcast is nothing else if not topical. And, you know, with Andrew Luck, you know, sending some serious shockwaves through, I guess, the sporting world and Twitter and society in terms of his decision to walk away from the Colts in the NFL at the age of 29 and leave millions and millions of dollars on the table

and sort of led to this whole conversation. And, you know, we've been talking about this for a long time with the NBA in terms of this, quote-unquote, player empowerment era and sort of how players are finally taking control. And you see star players that are, you know, stuck in a less than optimal situation on their current team, kind of force the team's hand to move them to somewhere else where they want to play with either a buddy of theirs or where they think they can thrive more or, you know, grow their brand or any number of things. And, you know, that's clearly something that we haven't seen in NHL yet because the best player in the world has been playing on a team that's not going anywhere and hasn't made the playoffs in two years despite two historically great seasons from him. And if you're waiting for Connor McDavid to force the Euler's hand and do something drastic, good luck to you, but I can't see that happening anytime soon. But so I'm really kind of curious to spin that towards a discussion for the NHL, though, in terms of, you know, a hot topic this summer. has been especially with all of the RFAs. And, you know, we're heading into September now, and a bunch of the big names still are waiting for contracts. And we'll see how much of that is

posturing and how much of that is actually going to trickle into the regular season. But, you know, last year we saw with Willie Neelander, he waited until the final deadline to finally sign his deal. And I wouldn't be surprised to see more and more of that as players really fight for what's theirs and fight for more control and more power at an earlier stage of their career, which we haven't really seen in the NHL in the past. So I don't know, like, we can take that in a number of ways, but just what interests you the most from that angle of like all of these ideas finally coming into the NHL and players really sort of putting their foot down and asserting themselves more and looking out for themselves as opposed to that sort of idea of like no one player

is greater than the team and you have to kind of fall in line. And if you're a star player, take a, I take a hometown discount so that other players can get paid. Like, that's just some of these ideas are just like, I get them and they're really. I guess, but especially with how long a player's career can be, especially in a brutal sport like hockey where it takes one unfortunate head injury or spill and you can never be the same player again. I'm all for players really fighting for themselves and getting as much as they can out of there while they still can. I think you touched on a really interesting factor in how brutal the NHL is and how much risk you're taking on playing a sport where you put knives

on your feet and a weapon in your hand and vulcanized. rubber pucks zip around the ice at 90 plus miles per hour and, you know, all the terrible things that can happen in a collision sport like that. Um, you know, I do think there's an extent to which players, you know, fear, or not fear, that's the wrong word, but players are cognizant of the risks that they're taking and tend to take money earlier and, and the guarantee of that money. I mean, that's, I think a big part of the reason why guaranteed money is such an issue for the PA. any time you get into CBA talks, labor talks, with the NHL in particular. And I think that sort of gets into the Andrew Luck thing pretty naturally too.

I think, you know, for an NFL player where there is no guaranteed money and, you know, where in Lux's case there's been some significant injuries and a ton of work. I mean, that's another thing, like the amount of rehab that an athlete does and how gruesome it is to get back to, you know, and again, they're functioning at a level well beyond what I am as a, you know, overweight man. To get back to the level they need to be to be competent on the field of play, I mean, you know, obviously I worked with Luongo for the past three years and saw firsthand what he had to do after his hip surgeries and not that he was as young as Andrew Luck. You know, I mean, it's the level of commitment it takes and how brutal it is to just spend. that much time on the table, spend that much time going through your core exercises.

Usually in isolation, like you're not doing that with other players. Especially once you're hurt, right? You're often away from the team until you're good enough to skate. And yeah, no, it's savage, man. I mean, I completely understand why players would do it that way. But I also do think that that's a big reason we haven't seen. And this is for the podcast, Connoisseurs listening, but we haven't seen an NHL player exercised their pre-agency to this point, right?

that just, you know, hasn't happened. At least not in recent memory. So, yeah, I mean, look, I think it's fun to have player movement. I think that's easy for fans and for us to say. I think it's extremely disruptive for the lives and the families of the players themselves. But player movement, I think, is good for the league. And I think that's been good for the NBA. But, you know, and I think good for the NBA players getting themselves paid and on and on.

I mean, it's fun to watch. It's fun to follow. It's fun to report on. It's fun to read. I think it makes for good podcast fodder. I think that the stones it takes for an NHL player to behave that way, you know, with the stakes at play, I think it's really high. But I do watch this group of second year guys, second contract guys, and think that, you know, especially with the Neelander example, there's going to be. some people who are emboldened. I think, you know, Neelander took it to the brink and got paid.

I mean, he really did well. You got what he wanted to. And, you know, so I think that emboldens players to some extent, and it should. And then, you know, the underlying debate that these players are mostly going to be having with their teams. And, you know, we saw with Austin Matthews signing the five year, you know, sort of a miniature version of this is, you know, it's in a player's best interest to sign a deal that's like five years long. Right. Because if they're willing to gut it out and willing to risk that they're going to stay healthy, you know, hitting the market as a 26 or 27-year-old free agent means an awful lot.

And if you're a team, you know, your best bet is to buy out a player through the age of 27, 28. And, you know, milk the best years of their career at a lower than, or lower rate than their market value would. dictate where they completely free to sell their labor after the expiry of the entry-level contract. So, you know, that's a pretty significant separation. And the NHL doesn't have a mechanism to force any resolution. And I suspect we'll hear a lot more about that as we get into CBA talks over the next a little bit, over the next 12 months. But yeah, I mean, it'll be fascinating to see. I'd be shocked at this point if any of these second year guys sign before training camp. And there are significant knock-on effects for the rest of the league.

I think a lot of the veteran players who haven't been signed are grumpy about it. There's a lot of teams who, you know, will be waiting for those dominoes to fall before making some moves they might otherwise have made. And, you know, there's a certain stasis that that brings to the league that I don't think is particularly helpful. And obviously, we're looking at a situation where teams might be

charging full price for preseason games, certainly across Canada, but in markets like Columbus and Boston and on and on as well, where you're going to a preseason game and there's literally zero chance that you're going to get to watch, you're Zach Werenski or your Matthew Kichuk or you're Kyle Connor. That's not good for anybody. So it'll be interesting to monitor. I think we might get to a situation like we had with Major League Baseball last year where there's a variety of really, really high-end players unsigned when the games start to matter.

and, you know, there's just no way that's good for anybody. Yeah, I mean, right now we have the 11th, 12, 17th, and 31st leading scores from last year without contracts. Yeah. Not to mention any number of other guys like Patrick Line, Brock Besser, Zach Wrenzke, so on, so forth. And that's also, like, completely quantitative, not qualitative. Like, the goals that this group scored were beauties, right?

Like, they're so entertaining. And in theory, they're about to enter their best years. Right, exactly. Yes. It would be a massive shame to lose meaningful games. from any of the any single one of these guys well that that's what made uh like what sebastian hajo and his agent did such a masterful thing where it's like it was so funny this entire dialogue of like does you want to go to montreal what does this mean are the hurricanes cheap and it's like no well

i mean he just wanted to get paid for a shorter period of time so that he could become a free agent when he's reaching his peak years or when he can maximize his earning power and he found someone who was going to oblige him for that and he basically basically got the best of both worlds. He gets to stay in Carolina and he got what he wants. And I would love to inset. And how old will he be when he's a UFA? I think 26. 26. I mean, so he could look at another 80 plus million dollar contract. Because if Aho continues to do what I certainly think Aho can do for the next five years, he's going to be another, you know, probably seven, seven years, 10 plus, so at least 70, probably closer to 75.

And so, you know, whereas if he was 29, I mean, he still maybe gets that amount. But increasingly, I think teams are leery of it, right? Certainly after the, after the free agency class of the memorable free agency class of 2016, I do think there's a certain level of gun shy. There's a certain level of awareness that you can't sign those old guys to that amount. So, you know, in an environment where teams aren't going to be handing out your Luchich contracts and your Erickson contracts, that creates even further leverage or further incentive for your second contract guy to keep it short. And, you know, that results in an impasse. And I do suspect something structurally

will need to be done to sort of just, just any mechanism that results in resolution or that drives resolution. Arbitration is obviously a super effective one. That said, you know, I don't know how effective the NHL arbitration system is these days. We see a lot of really good players go unqualified, which to me says that something needs to be tweaked there too. But the fact of the matter is that, you know, without any device to force a resolution except for the, what is December 1st, right? The December 1st deadline, you know, these could drag on. And I just think that's a damn shame. Yeah, it is for everyone involved. And, you know, in terms of like the parallels with NBA, what we've seen a lot is a lot of the star players and the higher profile players have sort of

acknowledge they're kind of like, I mean, both they're, um, they've used their leverage and understand the power that they wield because of how good they are at the sport they're playing and how few players can do what they can do on the court. And also they're acknowledging, I think, their mortality too as, as athletes where it's like, you have a certain amount of time to do as much winning as you can to build your legacy and to be, you know, held in a conversation with other greats that came before you. And that's a conversation we don't really get into that much in hockey in terms of like comparing like, oh, like Sydney Crosby, like how much like, you know, that's an interesting subject. It's like the greatest player ever is settled, right? It's like it's

Gretzky or or or depending on what camp you are. But it was like that in basketball too. And then now LeBron's kind of forcing his way into it against Jordan, right? I think for a long time, you would have thought no one's ever going to touch Jordan. Yeah, that's true. Okay, fair enough. But. But so this is what I'm saying. Like, let's see with McDavid right now, who's still early in his career and, you know, has one second round appearance, hasn't done anything. I don't know how many more, what does he have, six more, seven more years in Edmonton that he signed up for at below market value, basically, for his skill set. Like, the fact that...

Well, yeah, we haven't even touched on the fact that I think we would both agree that the best players in the league are significantly underpaid. Oh, of course. Yeah, no, that's an entirely different conversation. But this idea of, like, players being like, listen, like, we're going to contribute on the field, or in this case, on the ice. But we're going to keep the pressure. on the team and the organization to keep putting us in a position to succeed by building a

winning group around us. And if they don't, we're going to go elsewhere where we can accomplish that. And that's why we see a lot of NBA players signing like one, two-year deals with an out clause where if it's not going the way they want, they can go somewhere else. So I just think NHL teams would freeze you out. I think NBA teams, you know, the New Orleans Pelicans have obviously cleaned up this offseason, partly because they didn't blink when Anthony Davis told them to, right? They were like, no, whatever, we'll hold on you for the till the draft. Now, they got lucky they won the draft lottery, which kind of changed their leverage, all told. But, I mean, the level of assets that they've accumulated since winning the Zion lottery is,

is unbelievable, like, hard to imagine. I think the, I think NBA teams blink too often, personally, just in the player empowerment era. And, you know, I think that the Kauai trades, another good example of it. I think, you know, Kauai was miserable. San Jose. San Jose. Wow. Excuse me. We've been going cross-sports too much and it's obviously infected my brain. So San Antonio blinked and sent him. I mean, granted, he held out an entire season. So, you know, you wouldn't blame. You wouldn't blame them for it. But, you know, you read back and like the Boston Celtics were like, no, Jalen Brown for Kauai. Like, no way.

you know, the 76ers similarly were just unwilling to deal false. I think part of that was also health concerns, though, right? Faults. Right. You can't tell me it's health concerns when we're talking about false. No, of course. Yeah, that was a bad thing. I mean, you know, there was a huge risk.

But the point is, is that I think that teams blink, you know, teams were too worried about a willful player in that circumstance. And I think that's, you know, something that NBA teams have generally done. They've acceded pretty quickly to players' wishes. And I actually think NHL teams just wouldn't. I think there are a variety of NHL teams where if a player was like, I want to, I want to betray it.

Because it happens pretty regularly. They just be like, now, well, we'll trade you when it works for us. Like, I just think that NHL teams are a little more, well, it makes sense because there's fewer players who make this kind of impact that you're a LeBronzie or Anthony Davis's do. But I think NHL teams would tell players to go stuff it.

I mean, I really do think there's a hard math. at play there too. I think for like a middle tier player, yes. I think if Connor McDavid right now was like, I'm never playing another game in Edmonton, but it would be like six months, it would be six months of a media circus, right?

And think about how hockey people cover P.K. Sue Bands, Instagram stories. Right. Now imagine Connor McDavid does like a huge public campaign to get dealt. I mean, look,

great story, fun to cover, but the way that it would be covered and the way that it would be dealt with in terms of his legacy, you know, who wants that? I mean, I just think that ultimately Edmonton would still have so many things that, so many cards to play in that situation. Well, they do because he's a sucker who signed a ridiculous team-friendly contract.

So they do have a lot of leverage now. They control him for the next however many years. If he was a free agent next year, I think they'd be pretty worried. Right, sure, sure. Well, and, you know, we'll see, we'll see how it goes as that comes to bear. Right. But what I'm saying is there's no there's no organizational accountability. Like we make fun of the Oilers for their mediocrity and how laughably they built a team around him.

But in theory, they could just keep doing this and keep getting away with it, right? Like there's no. Well, they have. They have forced their hand. Exactly. With a full generation of. Which is why I'm so interested in, you know, keeping it with the Oilers, obviously a player of much lesser stature. And as a result, he has way less leverage.

But by all accounts, yes, he Pooley-Arvy was basically like, I don't want to be here anymore. You know, it's the Western Canadian in me where I've been like a little reticent to say anything too controversial on this podcast. And then all of a sudden you're bashing the Oilers. And I'm like, yeah, you know what? Fuck Alberta teams. But, but, so that's why I'm so interested. Because basically, and listen, they got a new coach.

They have a new GM. And he's still like, I just don't have any faith that my career is going to go the way that I wanted to here. And he just, he's basically like, I'm just picking up and going to Finland until you guys find a new. other team for me. Oh, Jesse Poyerby. Yeah. Yeah. He, yeah, for sure. And I thought that was an interesting move. I like the NHL out through December 1st. Yeah. Right. So he's created his own mini deadline. Right. Um, I just don't think there's value there. That's the problem. Like, I just, for who? For anyone? Like, I think the oilers take a pretty significant black eye um, from dealing him. You know what I mean? Like, you, you, you almost might rather retain his rights.

If he goes over to Liga and crushes, you know, say he's the bleeding score. in Liga at the age of 22, right? Fine. We still have your rights. Like, you still can't come back without us. So, you know, sign, here's your offer. You haven't played in the league in a year. You're not helping your leverage. No matter what you do over there, right? Like, the best player, his age, who was undrafted in Liga, like, they're a two-year entry-level guy. You know what I mean? Like, there's not a ton of leverage that he's going to gain, even if he goes over there and is like 50 points and 30 games. I mean, that helps him a bit. But it doesn't help him a ton. And, you know, if Edmonton, what? Edmonton's going to deal him for a second, I'd wait it out. If I was them, if I was them, I'd wait it out. I don't think there's any incentive to make that deal. And I don't even think you're getting a second for him, because I don't think he's highly rated. And I don't think teams around the league appreciate this level of hardball. So, you know, I don't know how this plays out. I suspect that his trade value is not very high. I suspect that the deal he's made doesn't help the Edmonton Oilers get the kind of return that would move him on anyway.

And, you know, I'm, I'll be interested to see if this gets resolved. But, you know, I think it's pretty tempting. This is a player who's more valuable to you if he hits, right, than anything you're going to deal, even at this juncture. You deal him for, even at this juncture. And you're definitely not getting anything of blue chip value. So why not let him go play in league for a year and then do it again next summer? I mean, unless the, unless the PR headache is true. truly something you're not willing to deal with.

Right. I don't see why he's put, I don't see how he's put them in, put the oilers in a bind that, um, I wouldn't be willing to wait out. Counterpoint, I think if you're the oilers,

it's a pretty big L for you to have nothing to show from yes, he pull your RV in, in another season, and waste another season of Connemer gave in his product. Sure, but you've got a new management team. You've got a management team who has no, and that's why they before themselves.

Well, and if your best offer on the table is a third round pick. No, like great. This guy might help McDavid in his last year with our team. You know what I'm saying? Like, I just don't see the pressure on Ken Holland in particular to jump into a bad deal.

I just think, and maybe it's just another L for Peter Sherelli, I guess, but the fact that, like, this team is so starved for wing talent to help out their two best players. And they have this guy who they took fourth overall, who by all accounts, like, he profiles as the perfect type of player. Like, like, 6'4, can skate, has scored at the lower levels. Had excellent, like, defensive chops. We're coming into the league. So to have nothing to show for that this year and another year potentially they're like looking down the barrel for another year of Conner-McDavid potentially winning the MVP, leading the league and scoring and then missing the playoffs.

Like that is just so insane to me. And they didn't do anything this summer. And part of it was because they were handcuffed by Peter Schrolet's moves. But like you look at it, they didn't add, like they added Mike Smith and Martin the worst, M. Granland. And that's all they did to a team that was not anywhere near the playoffs last year. It's so wild to me. They were just,

we're like bringing the band back together. It's like, oh my God. Well, yeah, I mean, they got James Neal too. Let's remember that.

That was a... And the fork sticking out of his back. Sure. He is washed. Okay. Sure. But also probably better suited to their team than what they traded for. I think they only think they could see if we get 20 goals out of him for sure.

Yeah. Right. And, huge. I mean, for them. and, you know, Jesse Poliarvy, again, I don't think his stock's super high around the league. So, you know, at this point, do you think it's a better resolution for the Oilers to trade a third for Jesse Poolyarvey or let him walk and see what happens?

Like, at this juncture, if the best offer, and I don't know what the best offer is, you know, if the best offer for Jesse Poole-RV on the table right now is a third round pick, objectively, what do you advise Ken Holland to do? Do you advise him to wait it out and see what happens, or do you advise him to make him to make a big? to take that deal. Yeah, I'd wait it out and see what happens. Definitely don't take a low ball offer. But I think it's crazy.

No one's giving them anything but a low ball offer. Listen, Tom, without being privy to the conversations that happen, it's so crazy to me that they couldn't bring him back to play for this team with a new coach and a new GM in place. And like, especially if they're like, listen, we promise. We'll actually sign it on the contract. You have to exclusively play with Connor McDavid.

But you can't do that. If he's not ready to play. with Connor McDavid. Ty Rattie was playing with Connor McDavid. Alex Chassan was playing with Connor McDavid. I have a feeling Jesse Pollyarvey is capable of playing with Connor McDavid. Maybe.

I think you or I could probably play with Connor McDavid. There's no chance I could play with Connor McDavid. Hang out around the net? Keep a stick on your eye. If you actually do want to see the player empowerment era dawn in the NHL, like the dawn of the era would be put me on Connor McDavid's way. No. Drysiddle is basically the only guy who can play with Connor McDavid on that team.

which is too bad. But no, look, I think, yeah, I think that if I'm, if I'm the Oilers, I'm not taking an anvil for Puy-R-V in the way that it's played out super publicly. I'd be tempted to call his bluff. And again, I think that's something, and I think that's something that NHL teams are better situated to do than NBA teams. I think NBA teams should do it more. I think NBA teams probably don't, I think the NBA teams are pushovers to their best players. And, you know, they, they all share the trade of overrating the guys they drafted and their young guys and perhaps undervaluing super elite talent, as we've seen. But I also think that NHL teams are well positioned because of the vagaries of outcomes, right, because of how, not arbitrary, but how abstract wins and losses can be in that league. And because you need 23 guys on your roster, I think they're well situated despite guaranteed deals.

on and on to wait guys out. And I wouldn't be shocked if Edmonton took that tack with Jesse Pooley-RV. I don't think it's necessarily the wrong play. Well, I'll be curious to see how much that landscape changes with this upcoming CBA conversation. Right. And honestly, over the next six weeks, we're going to see a fantastic test case for it with this class of second contract guys. I mean, especially if they kind of hold firm as a group and what that's going to do to the way we talk about hockey over the next. I mean, can you imagine what Twitter's going to be like on November 1st if none of them are signed? Like Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg with two guys, Toronto. Like, the markets impact Boston. The markets impacted by this are like the perfect markets if you're

the PA. And it'll just be fascinating to see how big a sewer our Twitter feeds are on October 1st if this keeps dragging out. If only there were a way that any of these other teams could jump in and sign these players to contract. If only that was a possibility, maybe things could change that all. Yes. If only Montreal kept going. She's just keep signing players? I wish.

Yeah, that'd be amazing. All right, Tom. Thanks, bud. Let's put a pin in it here. And then now that you're back in Vancouver, I'm excited to, you're going to be a regular on this podcast. Yeah, good. I want to be in the rotation of Super Friends. And, you know, obviously love the work you do and happy to be here.

Thanks for having me. So where can people follow you online? People can follow me online at Thomas Drance. And I've joined the Athletic Vancouver. So I'd encourage you to sign up. We'll have some great content. It'll be me and the boy genius. Tackling the Canucks this year with some big plans to flesh out our team further.

And you won't want to miss Harmon on the road. It's going to be a nice time. The best coverage of a 10th place team you'll ever find out there. Oh, yeah. We'll kill it. Thomas, I'm glad we got to do this. Good luck. We'll hear you venture, and we'll chat soon. All right. Thanks, man. The Hockey PDOCast with Dmitri Filipovich.

Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockey pdiocast.