The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 318: Four Boat Anchors Attached To Your Butt

Episode Date: October 17, 2019

Andrew Berkshire joins the show to help rank the best wingers in the league.1:50 The difficulty of evaluating wingers4:15 Brendan Gallagher6:00 Mikko Rantanen10:00 Blake Wheeler13:20 Jonathan Huberdeau 16:00 Matthew Tkachuk20:00 Mitch Marner23:30 Filipovic Forsberg27:10 David Pastrnak 33:45 Vlad Tarasenko41:15 Johnny Gaudreau46:45 Claude Giroux 52:00 Alex Ovechkin59:00 Taylor Hall1:02:30 Patrick Kane1:05:00 Artemi Panarin1:08:20 Brad Marchand1:12:30 Mark Stone vs. Nikita Kucherov 1:16:00 Leon DraisaitlSee acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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Welcome to the Hockey-Ocast. My name is Dimitri Philpovich. And joining me to finish, this Odyssey that we've begun and it's been taken us for the past month or so to get through, ranking all the individual positions is my good buddy Andrew Berkshire. Andrew, what's going on, man? Not much excited to get into the Wingers yet. It takes us a while to get through.

I think our idea of trying to get done through multiple positions in one podcast doesn't ever come to fruition where we talk too much. We do. I mean, we spend like half the show talking about honorable mentions and guys we really wanted to have on our list, and then we just breeze through the actual list itself. but I think that's, you know, that's part of the fun. That's what I always tell people about these lists. It's like it's more about sort of the content of like what we're talking about

and what went into the thought process for our rankings more than like which guy was 14th and which guy was seventh or whatever. So I'm cool with that, but you're right. I mean, we typically go like at least like 70, 75 minutes on these preposition group. And so for those that haven't listened yet, we did defensemen most recently on episode 317. We did centers on episode 312 and I did goalies on episode 313 with Kevin Woodley. So go check all those out. Today we're doing wingers. We've been teasing it for three weeks. I feel like every time we've done a position group so far, we started off the show saying we were going to do

wingers and we haven't done it yet. But today's the day. We're finally going to get into, I guess the sort of the most dense group, right, just because we're jamming left and right wingers together. And that leads to kind of an overflow where there were, I don't know how you felt about it. But when I was putting together my list, like I initially had at least like four or five guys that I had pictured having inside of my top 15 just because I feel like they're that caliber of player. But then once I finally started writing the names down, I was like, oh, there's just no way I can jam them in here. And so I have I have more of like a top 20 than a top 15, but that just speaks to the depth of the position. Yeah, I had like it was almost the toughest thing was to come up with whittling down the honorable mention so we didn't spend the whole podcast on them.

Right. I had at one point like 15 guys that I wanted to talk about in the Honorable Mention. So it was kind of tough to come up with the 15 and cut people off and then whittle it down to around 20 names overall. So yeah, it's a tough one. I feel like Wingers is a position where they kind of, like everyone knows that a winger doesn't impact the game as much as a center does. And, you know, the best winger is probably around the fifth best.

or fifth or six best center in the league in terms of impact. So, like, you don't have that extremely high super elite group. But after that, there's this huge group of players who have so much talent. And I think Wing is probably the deepest position in the NHL. Maybe it's because it's the simplest to play and we put the least value on defense. So you can really go deep on a player's offensive contributions. But, yeah, it's a really hard. to whittle this one down. Well, yeah, there's a lot of players here that, like, it might,

especially like in the honorable mentions group, where like, if you're a team and there, you're your number one sort of most relied upon winger, you're going to be fine. Which, that's not true for like when we do like centers and defensemen, right, where it's like, there's a pretty clear drop off. And if you're relying on guys down the list to do too much or really do all the heavy lifting, you might be in a bit of trouble. But here, I mean, especially for a lot of teams, I guess they sort of acknowledging everything you said there about sort of defensive responsibilities and sort of how deep the position is and all the demands of it. In some cases, you're probably better off with having more of like a depth approach where a lot of

players are interchangeable. But a lot of the names we're going to be going through here are remarkable talents. Give me, let's start off with honorable mentions or guys that just missed the cut and give me like four or five names that you struggled with the most that ultimately wound up falling just short. Yeah, I think the guy that I struggled with the most that fell just short was probably Miko Ranton in just because the potential is so, high, but I think we also talked about Blake Wheeler didn't make either of our lists, but I kept him in the honorable mentions just out of respect. Brandon Gallagher was a really tough one for me to not put in the top 15 just because he's such

a high impact player, but he's mostly just an even strength player, and that's usually what you're looking for, but when you're looking at the top 15, you want a little bit more versatility. And the last one that I had that I really wanted to put in there, but didn't quite make it, was Rajalov, and I think that's just an age thing. I think he's still one of the most exciting players in the game, but eventually you expect a guy like that to fall off a bit. Yeah, I had Radulov and Gallagher on a Monomwell mentions. Gallagher was definitely one of the names I was referencing when I started thinking about my list. I was like, I feel like I'm going to have them around like the 13, 14, 15 range because I just appreciate what he brings to the table so much and how good, you know, all of his 5-on-5 metrics are.

But then when you start nitpicking a little bit and you start considering someone the name, versus him and it's like a lot of these guys are you know fine enough at five on five but they move the needles so much in the scoring department or on the power play that it kind of gives him a slight leg up on him but he certainly deserves praise and I think he's a name that's not typically thought of in sort of national league-wide circles as being in this group of players on this caliber of talent but I mean just his resume or the past couple years really speaks for itself in terms of how big of an impact player he has been at 5-1-5. So I had him as more honorable mention. I actually had Miko Ranton in my top 15. I had him at 13th. So I wanted that to be clear for all

the Aves fans that have been mad at us over the past couple years for knocking him too far down the list. I think it was it last year or two years ago. We might have had him on honorable mentions, or we didn't even talk about him at all. But I wanted to be clear that Andrew is the one that is hating on Miko Ranton. And I do have him inside of my list. Oh, Andrew hates on him for having him 16 while Dimitri at 13 loves him. I mean, listen, it's a pretty clear divide. I mean, between 16 and 13, it really speaks to our affection for the player. It's true. Is there, let's do a little bit on rant in here since I do have him inside of my top 15 and he just missed the cut on yours. I mean, you know, with a guy like him and we're going

to talk more about, you know, this when we do Leon Dreisel, for example. And there's other players here, especially if you're a top-notch winger that plays with an elite center that we also had in our top 15, sometimes we struggle as analysts or as fans to different, just kind of split those two apart and try to isolate and identify the value that the winger provides. And in this case, I mean, Ranton is very clearly in a great spot where he plays with Gabriel Anasog and Nathan McKinnon and they do so much as a trio for the avalanche. And especially on that power play, they've looked so lethal this year that I imagine once again, the point totals will be through the roof.

those guys. You know, in Ranton's case, he really has impressed me over the past calendar year. In terms of his offensive upside, I always thought of him as more of a sort of steady player, but his dual threat ability on that power play as a shooter, but also as a prolific playmaker, has really stood out to me. And especially at that size, it's, you know, it's kind of a skill set that I imagine most teams really covet and would love to have. And so he's really, he's really grown on me over as time has passed passed on because I wasn't necessarily super high on him out of the draft and early in his career, but it seems like he has continued to get better and better. Yeah, and I'm right with you on Ranton. And I think I think last year I had him

quite far down the list, despite his point production, because in the numbers that I was looking at in terms of like how much he was involved in the offense, he was very clearly riding Nathan McKinnon's coattails to that first 80 point season. But last year, he really stepped it up. He was really more of his own man, not to say that he isn't, you know, elevated by McKinnon because he is. But what stuck out to me was like, Rantanin kind of had the same season that Mitch Marner had last year, but with less fanfare, despite the fact that he was repeating that. So I kind of had to balance, because I have Mitch Marner in my top 15. And I think Mitch Marner is slightly better than Rantan. And it kind of comes down to for me, like, who's being

carried more by their center. And I think McKininin is doing a big, bit more than Tavares is for Rantanin versus for Marner for Tavares. So it was like a really tight thing for me, but I really think Rantanin will be in the top 15 for a very long time. Like he's really, his career arc has been incredible and he's still, he's 22 years old. Like he's also 6'4. He's a giant. Like he's not a player that needs protecting in any way.

He's really elevated his game in carrying the puck. He doesn't necessarily need to, but he can now. And like you said, he's a dual threat. And I think that's the thing what I struggled most putting Marner ahead of him is I have a far more belief that Miko Ranton can score than Mitch Marnon can score. So I have Marner slightly ahead, but I am fully willing to flip those two in the near future. Yeah. No, I agree with that 100%, especially as a shooter. And it's been kind of funny watching the Leafs early on the season.

I mean, they have such an embarrassment of riches. offensively, and especially on the top unit power play. But they seem insistent on trying to make this Mitch, Mitch Marner is a threat as a shooter thing happen, which is kind of bizarre to watch. I wonder if I was part of his contract. He's like, I want to be featured as a shooter. I want to prove that I can do that.

But Rantanin really does it all. And yeah, I mean, that's all that really needs to be said. I just wanted to quickly get into him there. I mean, there's a couple other honorable mentions. Blake Wheeler for me, you know, he's been on. this list in the past we've discussed when we talked about shifley on the centers about how um you know their five-on-five play has dipped quite a bit and maybe people aren't fully noticing just because the point totals are so high because there's such a good combo as a as a passer and shooter and on the power play

but you know it's funny um i was looking at this and so mark stone played 18 games in Vegas last year in the regular season and he was a uh according to evolving wilds goals above replacement model he was plus 3.6 goals above replacement in those 18 games and wheeler who's plus 2.8 in all of his 82. So, yeah, I think that kind of says it all. I mean, we're going to talk a lot more about Stone later in this podcast. But Wheeler, despite the high point totals, there was just too many holes in his resume, especially from last season, to justify putting him in the top 15 here.

Yeah, and I wrote about Wheeler for the free press a couple weeks ago now, basically looking at how his offense hasn't necessarily declined precipitously over the last couple of seasons, but going back, I think it was like three, four years ago was his peak. And when you look at him compared to where the league is going, where offense across the league is going up and his is kind of stayed stagnant dropped a little bit, but the point production is rocketed up. And you're like, okay, something isn't right here. Like the points are there, but the player is falling off.

What he's doing to earn those points is not happening as often anymore, especially relative to the rest of the league. he's actually had a pretty decent start to this year but it's one of those things where with a guy that age you expect some decline in their game and as great of a player as Wheeler was for such a long time age waits for no man it always wins so it just was just enough to pull him down

I still think he's one of the best power play players in the entire NHL but at even strength he was a bit of a black hole last year him man shyfully So, you know, if he rebounds, maybe he'd get back up in here because he has such a good impact in so many other areas. But so far, I don't think the rebound this year has been enough to get him back in there. Yeah, no, that's well said. I mean, there's a couple other names here.

Like, do you have Jeff Skinner on your list? Who is that sorry? Jeff Skinner? Jeff Skinner? No, I don't. No. So I like Jeff Skinner. I had Jonathan Hubertoe. I mean, I love their, like, their skill sets.

and their production, obviously last year, was through the roof for both guys. I mean, was Skinner scoring as many goals as he did in that kind of cushy spot playing with Eichol and Huberto being on that top line with Barkov and the top powerplay. But I just wanted to give them a little bit of love here. But, I mean, this top 15 is so meaty and so jam-packed. So I think we should get right into it. I mean, this is exciting. We only did 12 minutes on our album mentions.

Usually that's like at least half an hour on these shows. So I feel like we're actually saving ourselves quite a bit of time here to really unpack all these guys that are actually on our list. Yeah, absolutely. All right, let's get right into it. I actually had one of your guys from one of your guys that was honorable mention. I had at 15 was Jonathan Huberto. Nice. Yeah, he just missed my list. Yeah. So he was, he's good. I think the thing what Huberdo is like you were talking

about earlier, he's been of a dual threat. I think he's, again, a really good power play player and his even strength play is really coming along in the last season or two. He's just got a lot of upside. And he's, he's got a lot of versatility that. hasn't necessarily been unlocked perfectly yet, but I think that combination of him and Barkov is so special when they get put together, which is not always, but even when they're split apart, I think they were split apart for a large portion of last season,

and Florida was terrible, but they both had quite the offensive season. I know we talked about Barkov wasn't great defensively last year compared to his normal, but I think Hubertos really come along after I thought for a while that he was he's going to be not necessarily a bust, but never really fulfill his draft potential, and he's kind of looking like he is. Absolutely. And that is a great spot for him to be playing when he is with Barkup and when he is on that top power play.

And, yeah, I guess perceptions are really funny thing because I think he came into the league with such sky high expectations based on his junior production and sort of what we thought of him was a prospect and the fact that he got picked third overall. And then it took him a little while to get there. he didn't really develop in that sort of stepwise trajectory that we like to think prospects always will and so it took him a bit longer and there was a while there where I did think of him as as being kind of injury prone and I felt like he was always banged up but he hasn't missed a game over the past two seasons you know he had 30 goals and 92 points last year and he's still only

he just turned 26 the summer so I mean he's still you know a young guy that's conceivably like in the middle of his prime right now. And so you're right. I mean, he's a heck of a dynamic player. And that's why it was so weird to see his name pop up in some trade rumors last year when sort of the Panthers were trying to figure out who was going to stick around and what they were going to do last summer. And I think they did a good job of making sure not to not depart with him because I felt

like that would have been a mistake. Yeah, it definitely would have been. And, you know, I guess it was a bit of a surprise, but nothing with the Panthers surprises me anymore. They're so all over the place. But, yeah, Huberto is, I think he's, if not in that top 15, he's like right there knocking at the door like you had him in your honorable mentions. That's right.

All right. My number 15 is Matthew Kachuk. Oh, yeah. You know, he should have been in my honorable mentions. I really like Matthew Kachuk. Yeah. He, I mean, he is a different player than a lot of the guys we've mentioned so far. I guess he's kind of similar in a way to Brandon Gallagher in terms of.

of, you know, the 5-on-5 impact and his ability around the net and in tight and how he drives opposing teams crazy. You know, mayhem is a very apt nickname for him in his three full seasons in the league, not counting the start of this one. He's drawn 116 penalties and he's taken 86. Wow. You know, the fact that he's taken 86, which is like amongst the league leaders in that time and he still has such a positive differential plus 30.

I mean, he is a very unique player in that sense. And there's a lot about him that, there's a lot to like. And I think he is versatile. And sometimes it's easy to pigeonhole a guy like that as just kind of an agitator. But I think he's so much more skilled than that and is in a really nice spot there on that second line with Backland. And so, yeah, I considered a lot of other guys for my 15 slot there. But eventually, I just put him there because I do think he is sort of, the most complete player in terms of putting all those things together amongst the names that I

considered. Yeah, and he really stepped up a lot last year. I think his first couple years in the league, I know his second year he didn't get the assist that he did his first year, and it looked like he was becoming more of a goal score, but he's been more of a playmaker than a shooter in his career and like really high-end playmaker. And then last year he added the goal scoring as well, you know, 34 goals is pretty impressive for a player who's primarily a playmaker. and pretty dangerous in the powerplay as well, not necessarily in the rantanen or marner mold, but yeah,

he puts you on the power play all the time as well. So that's a nice little bonus. I think Matthew Kachuk should make the list or be close to it only, or like if only for his annoyance of Drew Dowdy. That rivalry is one of the funniest things in the NHL. It is. I mean, that's second best defenseman,

Drew Dowdy to all the listeners. No, you're right. I mean, it has been fun, and trust me, Doughty is far from the only one who he's, I guess, most publicly or the highest profile player that Kachuk has gone on their skin of. But man, he, just watching some of these games, it feels like pretty much every team wants to take his head off. And that means he's doing his job. And the fact that he is as skilled as he is, similar to, you know, Marsha and Gallagher, probably drives opponents that much more crazy because he actually backs it up and you can't just kind of wave it off or, or chalk. it up as kind of like a goon who's just out there to just the shit to stir because he does so much offensively that it's like you just see him celebrating that probably just drives you even more

crazy yeah absolutely the pests that actually get things done are are much more annoying and I think when I look at like Matt Kachuk's career arc um like his best comparable is probably Brad Marchion and he might never hit the peak that Marshawn has hit because how unlikely is that a guy like Marchion to hit that peak in his late 20s, early 30s, it's really rare. But age to age, he's significantly better, I think. Yeah. Oh, certainly. I mean, it took Marchion quite a long time to become anything resembling the player he is now

or as Chuck pretty much was right out of the gate. Yeah, but you're right. I think, I think, you know, similar to what I was saying about Hubert O and sort of that like stepwise trajectory and improving at a certain pace. like I don't think it's fair to Kachakak to expect that he's going to reach that that tier of player, especially being as dynamic as Marchand is because that's, it's just such like a historical anomaly it feels like in terms of what he was and what he turned into at that point of his career. Let's let's keep going with this list. Who do you have at 14?

At 14, I have Mitch Marner. Mainly just due to the growth of his game, I think he's one of the better playmaking wingers in the league, especially. on the power play. The even strength production, I think I need to see another season before he would move any higher. I want to see him get done without Tavares, even though he probably won't have to, but I'd like to see it. And, you know, I think Marner, the biggest steps in his game, everyone's focused on the offense, has been defense in the last season in a bit. He went from basically being a guy who coasted for outlet passes along the blue line to being

pretty involved in working along the boards and trying to intercept passes. And he's been fairly successful at it and has used his agility and renewed defensive interest into being a moderately successful penalty killer who can generate some offense on the PK as well. So I think there's some versatility coming in his game that we haven't seen the peak of yet, even if he may never have as good of an offensive season again as he had last year. Yeah. I mean, he's clearly in a great spot to produce a lot of points and playing with. with a goal score like Tavares.

I mean, it has a bit unfair to him to be like, let we need to see it without him because it's probably not going to happen at this point, just because why, why would they split those two guys after how good they were together and sort of how their roster is constructed? But, yeah, he is, he's such a,

he's such a good passer. I mean, some of the stuff he does on the power play with the cross-seam action over to Matthews or these kind of like moves where he looks like he's going to drive towards a net or shoot and then he does like kind of like a spitting pass that creates so much space for morgan riley at the top of the point to do something himself like he must be um so fun to play with because if you're open at all or if you are a threat as a shooter you can feel confident that he's probably going to get you he's going to serve the puck up to you like on a silver

bladder and that must be so fun to play with yeah get into where you want to shoot from and he'll he'll find you and i think that's the main thing with marner that fans love so much right is just the pure creativity that he has. And that's why he's so good on the powerplay is that extra space allows him, you know, that extra half second to make these moves. And, you know, even if he never really brings that level at even strength, I think he's still in this conversation just because like the level of creativity is rare. And, you know, people equate, um, puck skills most often with talent. Right. And that's why you see a lot of specifically least fans thinking that Mitch Marner's a top five player in the game and obviously I don't think either of us believe that.

But in terms of skill level, he's definitely up there and creativity specifically. His ability to do weird things that people don't expect with the puck is up there with the top in the league. There aren't very many players who I'd say are more creative than Mitch Marner. Yeah. No, I think that's fair to say. I mean, I had about 11 on my list. So I was like a slightly higher on him than you, but I'm right there.

in terms of sort of the rationale and what he does well versus what he does and sort of the concerns with his sort of statistical profile. But yeah, he's a, he's a heck of a player. Who do you have a, okay, so you had him at 14? Yeah. Okay, so I'll tell you who I had at 14, and this might be a little bit of a, a little bit of bias, but I can't be rational about this guy, Philip Poe-Ferzburg. I mean, he is, and this might be like a little, you know, what you were just saying about Mitch Martin and sort of when you watch him and some of the stuff he does and maybe you can get a bit

overly excited about it just because it looks so good and so different from a lot of players. Like when I watch Forsberg play, I mean, some of the stuff he does with the puck and how slick and dynamic he is and he's the perfect mold of player that I like from my winger in terms of, you know, he's just a monster carrying the puck through the neutral zone. And it feels like I can't even remember a time where he like willingly dumped the puck in for no reason. It feels like he's always trying to squeeze the most out of a play. You know, sometimes maybe even to his detriment because it feels like he's trying to do a little too much. But the effect so far that Matt Duchain's arrival has had on him and sort of how

it sparked that line and himself, Duchenne and how good they've looked. I mean, I think there's a lot to like there. And it feels like even though he's been an incredibly productive player, it feels like there's still another step for him to take as a point producer and specifically a goal score where if you can stay healthy for a full season, he can put it all together. And it feels like in the past, he's kind of started off slow and then he's gotten on these crazy goal scoring binges to wind up having a good overall package for the season. But it feels like now that he started off strong, if he can really put it all together, there might be another step for him to take. And I feel like I'm betting on that talent a little bit here. Yeah, I actually had Forsberg a little bit higher.

So I don't think you're crazy at all. Yeah. I don't think. I don't think. you're biased. I had Forsberg at 12. I actually wanted to put him higher. And the only reason I didn't is because Nashville's offense kind of stagnated in the last couple of years, not necessarily because of Forsberg, but I find he's a little bit, he became a little bit too used to shooting from the perimeter and just letting Arvinson do all the work in tight to the net. And Forsberg has such good hands that I wanted to see him move in tighter. And, you know, you can't really argue with him for how many goals he scores. But I think, like, you said that there's more to expect from him, which is kind of crazy and unfair, but he's,

he's so good in so many areas. And I think he's a versatile forward as well. He, he does a lot of things at both ends of the ice that I really like. And yeah, you know, the health is definitely an issue, missing almost 20 games for two straight seasons. But at the same time, he's, you know, got close to 30 goals of those two seasons anyway. So, you know, maybe you're not going to get 80 points out of him, but you might get 60 and 60 anyway. Yeah, that was the thing. It was, I mean, the talent and what he does in all the other areas as that puck carrier in transition in terms of his ability to use that to, you know, draw penalties and

everything, it feels like he should be higher. But then when you actually looked at the production offensively and you compare it and stacked it up to some of the other names that I have ahead of on this list, I just couldn't justify moving them any higher, it felt like. But the underlying sort of skill set there, and what he's capable, I think, just from a talent perspective, is a top 10 player on this list. And so I had him at 14.

Ultimately, I'm happy to hear that you had him at 12 and a long, long live Philip Poet-Fersburg. Exactly. We've got to do it for the meme. Absolutely. I love that. That's, yeah, that's my favorite thing that's ever happened to me on Twitter. So, yeah, when all the Predators fans thought that I was him and tweeting during games.

And the best part is, I think it was like, Instagram bio for a while was like, I don't have Twitter. So I wonder if that was related to my tweets. But anyways, so you had Huberdo at 15, you had Mariner at 14, you have Forsberg at 12. So who do you have in between those guys at 13? I have David Pasternak, which I'm sure a lot of people will be like, what, that low? But I kind of punish him a little bit for playing with two other guys that are rated so highly. And I think Pasternak, for all the good things that he does do, doesn't have the versatility

that Marshawn and Bergeron do. He's a good defensive player, but not necessarily special. And it was kind of interesting timing because he scored four goals the game before we're recording this podcast. But yeah, I think he's an unbelievable goal score, unbelievable point producer. But I just don't think he has the versatility of some of the guys who maybe produced slightly less, but do a little bit more on this list. So that's why he slid down.

It wasn't necessarily any specific problem that I had with this game versus other guys. It's just other players contribute in more ways. And I think I lean more towards looking mostly at offense for wingers than any other position. And, you know, he's coming off of an 80-point season in 66 games. That's pretty darn impressive. But there's just a lot of really good wingers. So it was tough to put him any higher. Yeah, no, that's fair.

I certainly hear that argument. I mean, I had him a bit higher at 10. I'm just so infatuated with, you know, his growth as a player kind of from year to year. And sort of what I still think is a bit of untapped potential. Like if he's just, if he just winds up being what he's already shown to be, that's going to be an amazing game-changing player already. But it feels like just because he does play with two players of the caliber of Bergeron and Marjan and sort of all the little things they do, he kind of doesn't need to do it in a way. and it feels like he can kind of take a step back there. And then when they get into the offensive zone,

he really gets unleashed a little bit and they rely upon him. More and more it feels like with each year to not just be a goal scorer, but use that threat to open up passing lanes and kind of try some new stuff. And it feels like, you know, not necessarily that he had like kind of training wheels on, but it does feel like he's growing into that larger role as times going on in terms of some of the creativity that he's displayed and some of the moves he tries to do through the neutral zone and as he's entering the offensive zone, you know, kind of going between the legs and trying just pulling off ridiculous stuff. And so I do still think there's

another kind of layered appeal back there in his game. But yeah, just watching him as a threat from that left circle on that power play. I mean, his ability to not only get remarkable speed and accuracy off on his shot, but it really does feel like, and I know that usually it's like Torrey Krug passing to him, who I think is one of the best passers from the blue line on that power play, but his ability to sort of make it easy on whoever's passing it on him by giving them a large room for air and sort of being able to receive any puck and still one-time it with supreme efficiency is a sight to behold. I think if he isn't already, he should be very firmly in that discussion with like ovechkin stamcoz and line as the best kind of pure shooters

both in terms of the actual um numbers but also just in terms of watching him kind of work his craft yeah and i think the thing that impresses me most about pastor knack is how he's willing or not necessarily willing but how he's able to kind of shrug off how the team is performing around him it seems like there's so many games that i've watched where boston is just laying an absolute egg and then all of a sudden, you know, a team is beating them up, but at the same time hasn't been able to open up a big lead. It's like 1-0 or something. And out of nowhere, Pasternak just scores two quick goals from like odd angles

or just like this absolute ripper shot into the open, like the top of the cage. And you're just like, where did that even come from? And I'm sure Leaves fans can attest that this happens a lot. And especially in the playoffs. But also he's actually increased his goal. scoring every single year he's been in the NHL, eh? Even last year, he did his career high despite only playing 66 games. And, hey, he's on pace for 82 this year.

And yeah, well, I'm sure he's going to hit that. But, and he also, he entered the league at such a young age, right? He has an 18-year-old. I mean, and sort of the situation he went into and the specific team he's on and who he plays with, like, I do feel like he is a candidate to a, as they as I mean listen Bergeron and Marchand are still ridiculously good and we're going to get into Bergeron later on this list and we talked about Bergeron as a top five

setter on the previous podcast but as time goes on and as those guys kind of start taking steps back or start kind of their minutes start being managed a bit more while the team tries to kind of prolong the most productive seasons of their career it does feel like there is an opportunity there for Pastor Nack to take the shoulder a larger percentage of that workload and sort of be asked to do a bit more with the puck as opposed to being just a shooter. And so I'm really excited to see how that kind of coincides with his mid-20s

where he in theory should be putting it all together both physically and mentally and really hitting his absolute peak. Yeah. And I think Boston, to their credit, has done a good job of, you know, not only have their players been age-defying in a lot of ways, but it seems like as much as Pasternak might be benefiting ridiculously by playing on that line that he kind of came into and it was already a high functioning line, it seems like everyone that they put on that line for the most part learns from those players. It might be like good practice habits from Bergeron and Marshawn. It could be just that they're both good teachers, but it kind of seems like the same thing as like every winger that plays with Sidney Crosby kind of take

something out of it. They're just skill teachers, you know, and it seems like there's something that transfers there. And I would not be surprised at all if once those guys kind of age out of their windows, if they ever do something in the water in Boston. But, you know, once you see like Bergeron retire or Brad Marchion start to dip a little bit, that Pasternak becomes the be all end all of the line and carries it onto the next generation, it just wouldn't surprise me at all. Yeah, I know.

I think he's capable of that. And so I'm excited to see that eventually manifest itself. Okay. yeah, we've done your 15, 14, 13, and 12. Who do you have next on the list? Next up, I have Vladimir Tarcenko. Nice. So this is your 11th guy, right? Yeah. At him at 12. So I'm right there with you. Let's talk a little bit about Vladdi Daddy. Yeah. So obviously, one of the most dangerous goal scorers in the NHL. I think last year, obviously, he played with some good centers. But most of his career, I think he's demonstrated that he can do it all

on his own. That's what really impressed me about him. There's very few wingers in the league that can do it all on their own drive, play, create offense, and Teresanko's one of them. So even if maybe he's not at his peak peak right now, I think he's still right there. Yeah. He does seem like he in a position that is typically pretty sort of situationally dependent or you know you're relying at least a little bit on who you're playing with down the middle um i do feel very confident that he could play with pretty much anyone and he'd still be good for his like annual 35 goals and maybe he doesn't have the um the highs or the ceiling that some of these other guys do like his his consistency and his ability to year in and year out just

give you exactly um what you expect a need from him is pretty special and I'm interested with him about where we're at as a sort of hockey community and sort of the dialogue or the narrative around him. Like, are people just sort of set in that and happy with it? Or after that postseason run with the Blues having the success they did, like are people higher on Teresanko now? Or it feels like amongst this group of players, he probably gets talked about the least, doesn't it?

Yeah. I mean, I'm sure part of that is just that St. Louis is a small market team. I think they're actually one of the smallest market teams in the league. They don't really get a lot of the press. Yeah, that's the other thing, right? They're a very choking defensive team, and they have been for a long time. So they're not necessarily an exciting team, even though when they wear their classics, they have one of the better jerseys in the league.

But, yeah, Teresanko, I think the analytics community has been boosting him for a long time, but you're right, he never really caught on in mainstream as an elite player. and I think last year was the first time that he really got credit for being good in the playoffs, but he also had a great run in 2015-16, and 2014-15, he was over a point per game. You know, he's got 33 goals and 70 playoff games. It's not like he's been shirking his responsibilities there. I think that's especially difficult for a guy who, not to say that the Blues have been untalented, they've had lots of talent, but I think he was their premier offensive weapon,

and they didn't have anything anywhere close to him for a long time until they brought in, you know, Braden Chan and Jaden Choritz got healthy and Ryan O'Reilly became their top center who was, you know, phenomenal last playoffs. But yeah, the fact that he's able to continue to do that despite being the guy that everybody is going to focus on in the playoffs speaks volumes. You know, he's just a guy who's able to do things on his own. He creates offense when everybody is focused on taking. his offense away and that just impresses me yeah and especially now it feels like so long ago because the most recent what kind of lasting image we have is them hoisting the cup and going on that epic run but

there were so many years there where they were losing to you know the prime blackhawks and the prime kings in round one and stuff and it felt like they were kind of labeled as um you know not choke artist but kind of like the team that always fell short and always lost too early and um you're right he I mean, as the best player on that team, or at least the most prolific kind of guy they rely upon offensively, he took a lot of that blame. But similar to what was going on with Ovechkin, like the fact that he was just constantly scoring goals, but the team around him wasn't scoring enough to keep advancing. It felt like it was very unfair.

So, yeah, no, he's also an interesting guy because, you know, you don't want to kind of scoff at or shrug at the 35 goals or whatever he's going to give you every year. But I was looking at, like, sort of his power play production. I know he had double digits last year. but for the most part he's been in kind of that like seven or eight power play goals per year range and with that unique rister of his from the right circle or from the circle and how big of a threat he is as a shooter like it does feel like those totals should be a little bit higher maybe it's just kind of like the creativity around him and just how reliant on them and they are and how defenses know

that like he's the get the shooter you got to keep an eye on so they can crowd him a little bit more I'm not sure what's going on there but it does feel like just based on how talented he is and how good it looks when he shoots the puck like those totals should be slightly higher yeah you would think so right i feel like there's a few players like that that they can get those shots off you expect them to be able to do it on the power play when there's more space and it just like doesn't really happen for him and never really has uh you know not that he's going to be on this list anymore but patch ready in his prime was kind of the same thing even strength unbelievable one of the best in the league and then it goes to the power play and his shot turns into a muffin for some reason it's it's super strange but yeah

Teresanko definitely you would expect more powerplay production. All right. Well, we actually done. We're inside my top 10. We're about do your 10th rank guy. Before we do that, let's take a quick break out here from a sponsor. And then we're going to finish up these rankings. All right.

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but it's just the defensive deficiencies that hold him back a little bit. To me, he's kind of like better Mitch Marner, and we could say better due to him being in his prime. He's 26 years old and Marner's a lot younger. But I think he's the one guy in the league who's probably on that same level of creativity as Marner without being like a generational player.

So that, like, he's one of the funnest guys in the league, to watch easily, in my opinion, the best three-on-three player in the league. Every year he's just like, you give him that extra space and it's ridiculous what he's able to do. But yeah, the defensive play is not good. And it's kind of compounded by playing with Sean Monaghan, who also is very poor defensively. But they're able to get it done anyway because they're both so incredibly good offensively. And then the flames have that second line, which, is a first line for most teams that is able to kind of counteract what these guys give up.

So I really like Johnny Goodrow, but I couldn't in good faith put him higher than that. Yeah, he isn't the perfect spot in the sense that that Backland and Kachuk duo can sort of perfectly slot in behind them and do all the stuff that they kind of can or struggle with. And so that allows the flames to use those guys in more offensive situations and really kind of catered to. their skill sets, which is ideal. Yeah, I mean, he was remarkably good last year, I thought. I thought he got even better. And, you know, his ability to carry the puck, similar Rosamma Foresburg, use it to draw penalties, the creativity.

I mean, offensively, he really is the total package. He gets slandered quite a bit now because people think that after a couple of short playoff runs, that his size can't hold up in the post season and teams can sort of press on him and put their body weight on him a little bit and sort of take advantage of the more lenient officiating. I still think it's such a small sample size in that regard that I'm not willing to just write him off

as a guy who can't be efficient in the postseason. But you're right. I mean, in terms of when he has the puck, he is remarkable at him at nine, so I'm right there with you. I don't know what else there really is to say about it. I mean, he's in that rare tier of playmakers where, you know, how I was saying about Teresenko, where anyone, any center he plays with,

he'll probably get his 35 goals. I feel pretty confident that any player that plays with Johnny Goodro is going to have a career season. I mean, look at what Elias Linholm did early on last year when they put him with him and just sort of how he went from being a guy who was a horrendous shooter when it came to efficiency during his time in Carolina to just being absolutely on fire. And he came back down Earth a little bit in the second half. But, you know, him, Monahan, like, I don't think these guys are great players by any means. They're good players, but Goodrow and his ability to create space for them and get them the puck in prime shooting regions makes them look a lot better and a lot more efficient

offensively than they are. And so his ability to make others around him that much better is a very rare skill in this league. A lot of guys can kind of get theirs, but it's really tough to make inferior talent that much better. And so I gave him a lot of credit for that because there's very few guys that can do that. Yeah, and I think, you know, you look at Monaghan, and I'll give him credit for being in the right spaces and going to some tough places to stand in. But has there been any player in the league over the last few years that's had more tap-in goals in the far side of the net than Sean Monaghan?

And like I said, he has to get there. But Godreau finds him. He is such an incredible playmaker. He's so excellent in making that cross-crease pass. And, you know, Monaghan's got the quick hands to get it in the net before the goal he can even react. it's such a perfect pairing offensively in that sense. And you know, you touched on the power play, or not the power play, the playoff stuff. That narrative really drove me nuts in the playoffs last year because, you know, I have the

ability to look at the data and see what Goodrow actually did in those games. And he was the best player possibly in the series offensively. He was incredible. He was creating so many chances. But if nobody can finish, nobody can finish. And in five games, you know, things can have. happen. Goalies can stand on their heads and I think Colorado did an amazing job coaching in that series to shut Calgary down. It wasn't Goddrow that was shut down. It was just everybody else.

And by virtue of that, you know, one point in five games, but one point in five games doesn't mean that he can be shut out continually in the playoffs is one series. And people just get so freaked out about that stuff. It's like you would think that after watching the Villain-Lano situation happen that people would realize that judging players based on small playoff performances is not a good idea but it seems like it's every year we get the same thing and it just won't quit people overestimate how much the playoffs are worth as an evaluating tool yeah Billy Lano Fernando Pisani a lot of guys who have had a very well-timed 10 to 15 game stretch all right let's keep going here what do you have

after Goodrow. After Goodrow, I have, I believe, Claude Giroux. Yeah, Clodgeron. So I didn't have Claude Giroux in my top 15. He was, uh, he was on my just Mr. Conoramble mentions, um, but I, I wanted to save talking about him because I figured you would have him in the top 15 after we talked about centers and we were talking about Kachir and you were so glowing about him. So I figured we'd wait to, uh, to discuss him by the time we got to your list. But I am, I am a little bit surprised that, uh, it took us this long to get them. Yeah. I, I didn't realize you having your honorable mentions, but that's a smart tactic. That's some good podcasting, Dutri.

Listen, I'm a host. I've hosted 318 of these shows now. Like, I know the formula. I've got it down to a science. Yeah, so Drew, I think we can both agree that his career was kind of saved by moving to the wing. And I think he's clearly benefited remarkably by playing with Sean Couturier, who's, if not a, you know, franchise level player. he's a highly elite player

but drew is the offensive driver on the line still you know putting him on the wing kind of gives him a kinder way to be evaluated you know he's not going to get dinged as much for not being amazing defensively although I think he's just fine and his power play work I still think he's it's between him marner and wheeler as the three best power play players in the entire NHL for me in terms of like how many

scoring chances they create and the quality of the scoring chances they create. And he continues to exemplify that, even though the Flyers power play hasn't been necessarily amazing, he's doing the work to make it good when they finally figure out the rest of it. Yeah. No, I think that that's fair and that's well said. I mean, he is still such a prolific offensive player. I don't know.

Maybe I was talking a little bit too much just because of that sort of shift and how I felt like bumping to the wing and playing with Sean Kachirier did sort of elongate or save his career. But he's also gotten healthy. And as we mentioned, we were Tomo Kutriere, he handled that transition with the utmost kind of class and in stride. And it's benefited both of them. And I've really been interested to see so far this year how the flyers are deploying their lines because they've split those guys up now. and they've kind of gone to this more offensively oriented line with Kevin Hayes centering

Girou and Borchek. And then they've used Couturee with Lindblum and Kineckney as sort of this dominant five-on-five more two-way, well-rounded line. And it's an interesting combination. And I think it makes a lot of sense. And the results have been good so far. And so I'm kind of curious to see how that keeps playing out because it wasn't something that I was expecting heading into the year. Yeah, I think the one thing for that line that I would be worried about with Girou and Hayes and Voracek is who's going to shoot? Yeah, it's a lot of passing. It's a lot of passing, a lot of playmaking on that line. And like Kevin Hayes can shoot.

He has a really good shot. He goes to good areas. He's really good at shooting off the rush. Drew likes to shoot more from the perimeter on the power play, mainly to create rebounds for people to get in. And, you know, Vorich can score. I think he's a decent shot, but he doesn't really shoot very much. Yeah, that's going to be a tough one. I feel like that line might overpass a heck of a lot at even strength.

And they might be really good at, like, dominating zone time. Because, I mean, you got Voracek to be the play driver. Hayes is a pretty decent play driver as well. And Drew on the wing, it's not a bad thing. None of those guys are bad. But, yeah, somebody's got to shoot there. I don't know who's going to be able to the back of the net. Yeah, I guess so.

You know, maybe they'll come up with like these crazy highlight reel passing plays all the time. And then it'll just be a tap in for Hayes who likes to go to the net. So we'll see. I guess what it comes down to for that line is can Jeru keep up skating-wise for them to become an attacking off the rush line? And I would doubt that a little bit because he's not the fleetest of foot. And Hayes is quite quick. So I guess I just doubt their ability to. produce the way that drew and Kuturi did.

That's fair. I do think that line does offer a lot of potential in terms of pinning teams in the defensive zone and really like destroying off the cycle and using their size to kind of create a lot. But you're right. I mean, in terms of those other two guys, you'd like to see a little bit more, especially with where the game's headed, offensive ability off the rush. Yeah, we're getting into, so we're in our top eight now. And these are all. I mean, now the in here, not that the guys before them were, um, you know, bad players by any means, but now like these top eight are just like, in my opinion, just super duper elite guys. Yeah, it gets to that point where it's

like these are guys that are team lynch pins kind of thing. And I, I think you could probably put a couple of the guys below it as that, but they're just not like you wouldn't pick them first overall, or not first overall, but first in a like if you were doing a league redraft, right? Whereas these guys, you can probably get away with that, even though they're wingers. Okay, so who do you have at eight? At eight, I have, and I know everyone going to take heat for this again, because I take it for it every year. I have Alex Ovechkin.

I am a bit higher. Yeah, you usually do. Ovechkin, obviously, best goal scorer in the league, in my opinion, best goals score of all time. Yeah. Yes, of all time. And I just think the problem with Ovechkin is just that he's not a play driver. And, you know, his centers have done a lot for him to make up for him.

to make up for that. But he coasts defensively. He doesn't really get involved and he just waits for an opportunity to create offense. And that's fine because he puts up 50 goals every year. But I think that the other guys ahead of them just do a little bit more. That's it. Yeah. No, that's fair. I mean, we really are picking nits here, right? And most of these guys do so much, so well that you kind of, you have to consider the stuff that are negatives or detriments in their game and it's pretty clear but ovechkin isn't the most well-rounded player and doesn't have the um the highest kind of five-on-five play driving effect as you mentioned at the same time i think he's such a unique individual in so many ways here and part of it is he's such like a overwhelming kind of physical force um like his

ability to when he wants to take over games and exert his will physically and and the threat he is off the rush and then as a shooter from his office on the power play um i just felt like ultimately uh silly bumping him lower than five where i had him because he's so good and he um he takes control in such a way that um is is just so unique and then and i just couldn't justify moving him anymore but I totally get where you're coming from if you were like constructing a team and it feels like you know you'd really have to build around him and the capitals have done a great job of that and with the centers he's played with and the guys that they surround them with so he's in a great spot but he is just such a such a threat and I do feel like uh it's remarkable that you know he stays as healthy as he

does given the way he plays and oh my god no kidding time and all that and I do think that's a you know a checkmark in and sort of his positives where some of these guys you talk about them and it's like oh well they miss a lot of time i mean we're going to talk about taylor hall here in a bit and and he's had some freak injuries but he also i mean he's no longer his head down yeah and with with with vetchkin it's like yeah he's going to play i mean he's probably going to play like 78 or 79 games he'll probably miss a game randomly for suspension he's going to like arrest once or whatever but like he's not going to be injured and if he is he's still going to play through it and he's still going to be remarkably effective and

so part of the battle is just being out there and he's always good for that and you know they lost in round one last year and he had more time to sort of rest up and uh recuperate physically in the off season and i presume he wasn't getting drunk and doing too many push-ups and fountains with people videotaping it although he not that it affected him much last year no not that it affected him at all but i do feel like he has had a little bit of extra jump so far this year and he's uh you know come out of the gate hot and he's scoring a lot of goals again and and and uh You know, at this stage of his career, it's, it's very comforting to see that because sometimes when a guy gets, you know, around the thousand game mark and is played as long as he has and

is in his mid-30s, sometimes like this stuff just happens really quickly where they just go away for the summer and then they come back and they just don't look like the same player anymore physically. And so I guess it's been like very reassuring to see him kind of come back and still look like that same Alex Ovechkin and produce like him. And, you know, sometimes maybe we take it for rent a little bit because it just feels like it can't envision a world where that's not going to be the case. And like you said, with all their time, eventually it will happen to all of these guys. But his ability to fight that off and keep just being that overwhelming physical force is is just so, so impressive and you can't say enough about it. Yeah. And I think alongside the ability

to just continue being healthy and being in great shape and do it every year, what I respect about Ovechkin is he's able to not necessarily rewind the clock, but change his game in order to either re-ad or add new skills to his repertoire. I feel like the power play production has always been there. He's never struggled with getting Pucks to the Ovi spot. And, you know, we can talk about how great Nick Baxter is, Kuznetsov, John Carlson, Mike Green in playmaking throughout his career. But Ovechkin always finds a way to be open. And that is. such a skill for players who shoot the puck. You think that every single person who's ever played on the penalty kill in the NHL against the capitals is thinking, where is O'Echkin?

But he still gets lost. And that is so incredible. That's never left his game, but his even strength scoring did start to dip. And after the 2016-17 season, I remember reading him talking in interviews about how he wanted to add more speed to his game and start attacking more off the rush. and then all of a sudden, 2017, 18, 2018, 19, the old OVs back where he's, you know, barreling down the wing and cutting to the middle and sniping through defensive defenseman's legs again. And it's like, okay, so he's added the rush scoring again. And it seems like he's got it again this year. And, you know, that pep in the step you were talking about every year when a guy's in their 30s, who's as dominant as Ovechkin, you expect him to no longer be the top goal score in the league anymore. and, you know, from his cold dead hands, he's not going to let anybody else take that trophy.

You know, it's crazy what he's able to do to maintain that scoring ability. And he's already got five and seven this season. Yeah. No, it is so impressive that everyone, that's like the highest level of greatness where everyone knows exactly what you want to do. And you just can't stop it. It's like you're calling your shot. And it's like he just time and time again just gets it done. And it's so darn impressive.

So I have Taylor Hall at eight. And I think he's higher than a top eight talent. And not too long ago, he was the league's MEP, whether you agree that he deserved there or not. He was clearly on another level that season. But, I mean, I was just what I was just saying about a betchkin in terms of durability and ability to be on the ice and carry their team with Hall. I mean, he's played less than 65 games.

more than half of his NHL seasons and we'll see so far so good he hasn't gone injured this is a big year for him because he's looking to get paid for arguably I mean probably the last time like in a massive sum in his

NHL career and he will certainly do so even if he misses a bunch of time this year because of the resume and because of how hard it is to find game breaking talent like him but it's been a pretty shaky start so far in New Jersey and they certainly haven't gotten off to the start that I think people were envisioning from them.

And so I'm going to be watching him very closely this year because he's still, from what I've seen, looks like that Taylor Hall we know and love where he's just such a threat off the rush and he's carrying the puck from his zone all the way into the offense zone and creating and pushing defenders back with his speed. But yeah, just the ability to be on the ice and to carry a team for all 82 games is something that has been lacking. And that's ultimately when we're nitpicking why I bumped him down to eight, even though I believe he's probably like a top five talents.

Yeah, and I had him significantly higher. I had him up at three and I'm regretting it a little bit now that you're talking about all the health concerns because I totally agree that there's a lot more question marks around Taylor Hall, the player in terms of like longevity than there is around a lot of the other guys that I had below him. So it's a tough one because I think when, like you said, when he's at his peak, he is one the best players period in the NHL. And yeah, the MVP thing is always a sticking point for debate, but he was unbelievable

that year. And last year, I think, may have not necessarily harmed his image from missing so much time, but people kind of like forgot how good he was because, you know, in Edmonton, he was always underrated and then he had that crazy year in New Jersey and it almost looked like a one-off because he didn't have a chance to repeat it. Yeah, hopefully New Jersey figures. it out this year and can start looking a little bit better because they've looked awful. Well, you know what's fascinating with him?

We were talking about a pasturenik, for example, and sort of how he's in this spot where he hasn't had to do too much and he can kind of grow into it. Yeah, Hall would trade for him. Trade that in. Well, no, of course. But it's also, like, it's kind of like, it's a blessing and a curse in this regard because like his skill set is so perfectly suited to doing all of the heavy lifting. And just like, you know, he's like one of.

of those rare guys like Jack Eichol where you can consistently go back in the defensive zone, get the puck, and just carry it with a full head of steam through traffic and create something in the offensive zone in a blink of an eye. And there's so few guys that can do that. So like he's perfectly suited for it. But at the same time, I'm sure that's played a role and why he has gotten so banged up. I mean, he's had to do so much for his teams. And all these guys I imagine would love playing with great players and it would make life easier for them. And it'd be a lot more fun to be able to just kind of roam around a little bit and not always have to create everything. And he hasn't really gotten that luxury at any point in his career.

So, you know, the devils do have significantly more talent despite their poor, shaky start so far. And it's still too early to write them off. So I guess this is kind of one of those things. We just look, wait and see if he can stay on the eyes, how it turns out, whether they can give him a bit more support, because the talent is still clearly there. But there are a few question marks. Yeah, yeah. there are. Who did you have above for, who did you have at number seven?

I had Patrick Kane. So did I. That's interesting. I was worried that I was going to be out on a limb there with Kane so low. But yeah, I had Kane lower than that. I think he's, you know, a really good player. I just don't think he is as good defensively as some of the guys above him. And you know what? You know, it's the age thing again. He's starting to get up there a little bit. and Chicago, I think some of the shines come off them as well, so the team around him isn't as strong and that affects him, but his offense is still phenomenal.

Yeah, I mean, people can just go back and listen to the sections about Mitch Marner and Johnny Goodrow. Yeah. And just insert it here. I mean, the offensive talent, the creativity, the puck ability with the puck is stunning. You know, his point totals reflect that. And similar to the Blackhawks as a whole last year,

it was a lot of kind of like going for broken and just sort of completely neglecting everything and one end in the ice to try and out shoot all their woes and outscore all their woes. And they did it on occasion and there's enough talent there to make it work for stretches of time. But it's not a very sustainable formula in today's NHL. And so, I mean, seventh is really high and deservedly so. But I think some people would probably be surprised that he's not higher just based on when you look at the end of the season. You look at the point totals and you see how high he is. you'd think that we'd have him higher on this list,

but he is, you know, not as well-rounded as a lot of the guys that are going to be ahead of him here. Exactly. And I think that's the main thing that holds him back. I mean, people are going to look at him and say 110 points last season, how could he only be seventh? And, geez, he had 340 shots last.

I guess, like, four or five years ago, he just decided he was going to be a shooter, eh? Like, you went from never really touching 30 goals to 40. You know, 40 goals twice in the last four years. Like, it's pretty impressive that he was able to do that and kind of carry the Blackhawks offensively on his back while Taves kind of fell off a little bit for a while. And I think Taves came back with a vengeance last year.

And the numbers that kind of pointed to Taves getting back to solid offensive numbers for a couple seasons. And things didn't work out that way until last year. But, yeah, it's interesting to see how much can you. can carry offensively, but like you said, part of the reason why those point totals are so far up is because the Blackhawks just abandoned any idea of defense and left their goalies out to drive for multiple seasons here,

and they're trying to out shoot opponents with an empty net, essentially. It's an interesting strategy. It hasn't worked out so well. No, no, it hasn't. I mean, it's fun to watch, but in terms of wins and loss, it's not great. All right, let's keep going, so who do you have at six? I have Kane's old linemate, Artemi Paneran. And it was tough for me to put him this low, actually, because I like a Panarin so much.

But I just think, you know, like I have Marshon right ahead of Panarin, and I think they kind of have the same impact overall. But I feel like Marciaun adds that like agitation quality. And he scores a little bit more than Panarin does. So it just put him slightly over for me. But I would be very open to swapping them around. I think the next like three or four players up, like up to number two, I could swap any of them and it wouldn't really matter. Yeah, I have Panarin at four.

You know, similar to what you said. I mean, listen, he, since entering the league, whatever, it's been four or five, four years, I think. This is his fifth one. It's fifth and five and five and five points. Seventh in total points. At five one five, he's fourth and in primary points. So goals created, eighth and overall goals created.

I mean, he's been such a dynamic. player. He is such a unique player in his sort of, in the creativity and sort of how he approaches the game. And you can tell that he sort of refined and worked on his game overseas on a large riseris before coming here because he just like thinks and approaches the game in a different way in terms of his willingness to hold on to the puck to let plays open up, not to just kind of dump it in or get rid of it quickly because he's afraid that he's going to mess up and his coach is going to be mad at him. And he's been so good.

And it was really reassuring over the past two years to see that when he wasn't playing with Patrick Hayne, that he was still able to carry an offense and make guys around him better and create stuff for them. And he did just that. And Columbus, as we've seen already, is sorely lacking that creativity and that offense from him, whereas the Rangers, albeit one of those games, was against, was against Ottawa Senators, but they look absolutely dynamic offensively. and yeah, I mean, he is just, he's a remarkable player and he does it all really with the puck.

And so that's why I had him. But I think we both agree. I mean, you had him at six, I haven't four. We're like, we're right there. And it's very interchangeable with, especially a guy like Marshaun. Yeah. And, you know, Panarin, I think is top to possession driving guys in the league in terms of, like, transitioning the puck up the ice. I also think he's really underrated defensively.

I think he's like really, really good defensively. So there's just nothing really to knock about his game. He's got the creativity. He's got the defensive awareness. He's moving the puck up for you. Like he's one of those guys where any team could sign him, slot him in wherever with whoever, and you're going to be fine. Yeah.

And it's a great combination putting him and Mika Zbinajad as a shooter together. I think those two guys are going to have a lot of fun this season and put up some pretty crazy point total. So I'm excited to watch that. So I had Ovechkin at five. The guy that we touched on briefly is Marchand and I had him at six. Where'd you have him on your list? Five.

Okay. Yeah. So you have them right there. So, I mean, there isn't too much more to be said at this point. Like, we alluded to it earlier, but his career arc, how he's gotten seemingly more talented or more empowered offensively to do more as his career has gone on here until his late 20s, how he's constantly time and time. again been a well above average to great shooter in terms of efficiency and then he started playing

more, started playing on the power play, started shooting more, and that efficiency didn't really dip, and he just basically kept being that same guy, but just you prorated those stats and expanded them and his point totals and counting stats just increased accordingly. And I feel like there's so few guys that can do that. We sometimes his analysts get in trouble of that where it's like, oh, look at this guy's per 60 stats, like how good he is. is look how efficient he is in this limited easy usage and then we just expect that they can kind of carry that over while playing against better players and playing more and a lot of guys kind of crumble under that expectation and pressure and physical demands whereas he basically just like

continued to keep doing that and you know playing with with pastor knack and and bursarone certainly helps but his ability on the penalty kill as a passer as a puck carrier um you know all shenanigans aside. And that's probably why, uh, that's why it is so frustrating as sort of an unbiased observer to see him resort to some of the dumb stuff sometimes. Because it's like, he's so good, um, that I would just love if that was the focus. And that's what we were talking about as opposed to this whole other kind of subplot and side story of him doing questionable stuff and getting in trouble with the league. And so, um, you know, we'll see as his career keeps going here. But I mean, he's just, he's just so damn talented with a puck and when he's going and when that line is moving it's remarkably fun to watch

and some of the stuff they do is just incredible yeah the power play work i think is the weirdest thing like outside of like he obviously added the goal scoring and has never looked back but the power play work the fact that his first six seasons in the league he had 17 power play points and last year alone he had double that you know like that that doesn't really happen for a guy who's 30 years old So it's incredible what he's been able to do. But yeah, it would be nice to see a long stretch before the next time Brad Marchand gets in trouble for just actively trying to hurt someone, not within the game, just throwing out a knee or a slew foot. Yeah, it's just, it's such a distraction. And I get that part of it is not necessarily his brand, but how he makes himself effective is he gets people so angry and they do something stupid in response.

and they're the ones who get caught. But I do wonder how we would talk about Brad Marchand if referees didn't find him so funny because, man, he gets away with a lot. And I know, I forget who it was who was talking to a ref last year that like full on admitted that they give Marchand more breaks because they find him funny. Yeah. It's like, it's such a caricature at this point that it's like, you just believe anything. It's like, oh, Brad Marchion did this and I see you're like, oh, yeah, I mean, it checks out.

Like, I believe it. And so it's kind of just like, it's so ridiculous that it's past that point. But you're right. I mean, it is annoying that like, you know, you can't really talk about a guy like that without mentioning all that other stuff. And the fact that he is so talented and still resorts to that is frustrating. But it's kind of, you kind of have to take it as it is at this point of his career because I can't really see that changing.

So we're in the top five now. We're done. We're actually inside of my top three. To give me your four, three, two, and one. Okay, so I already had haul at number three that was out there, but my number four is dry sidel. Two is stone and one is Kutrov. I got dry saddle at three, stone at two and Kutraub at one. So we are.

Yeah, so we're only one off. We're right there. I guess as people were playing along at home, they could have seen that coming. Although I was curious to see whether you would have Stowed and Kuturov flipped. That was like my only. I was tempted. Yeah. Yeah, it felt like doing that might have been like overthinking it a little bit.

You know what I mean? It's kind of like that like a hockey Twitter sort of hipster thing. It's like, no, not that everyone kind of embraces the fact that Mark Stone is so good now, but it's like he does all this other stuff and everyone talks about it. And sometimes like Kuchab just makes it look so easy. And with how last year ended, it's easy to kind of forget, I guess, the impact he has offensively with the puck. And it might be overthinking it just a little bit to bump him down.

Although there's no shame in being the second best winger in the league. Yeah. And I think the other thing is like I want to see Mark. Stone for a full season in Vegas. And there's potential there that he could put up unbelievably ridiculous numbers if they stick with that like Stone, Patcheretti, Stasney line. I know that they haven't had them all together for most of this season so far. But, you know, whoever is in the middle, I think they had Cody Glass for the first

couple games between them instead of Stassany. But whoever's in the middle, those two together, I think there's so much potential there. Mark Stone actually having talented linemates and a team that. that is good all around him, so he doesn't ever have to play with, you know, Cody C, C, C, dragging him down. I just think the potential is so crazy.

And last season, in the limited sample size that they were together, they were, like, unbelievably dominant to the point where I was looking at the numbers. I was like, this isn't real. I was like, there's got to be some sort of error here. Like, I don't understand how this is even happening. You know, numbers that I would expect from, like,

the Sergei Federov Red Wings were coming out, you know? Like, it was incredible. and I want to see that and if he's able to produce that for a whole season I have no problem flipping him above Kutraov but for now

I mean Kutrov he just put up a season I think it was like the highest point total since like 05-06 maybe even longer it might have been all the way back to like peak Yager yeah

like that's that's something special and like you know we can't always focus on point totals and we don't as people who are more analytically inclined but it's still so special to be able to do that, especially when you're playing in the same league that has Sidney Crosby and Connor McDavid.

And, you know, Kutrob has a lot of talent around him to benefit from, but he's still the one getting in done. Yeah. I mean, at some point, the point total becomes so overwhelming that you kind of have to buy him into it more. And it helps that when you watch it, like, it totally checks out. And there is a lot of talent around him, and that power play is just ridiculously stacked. But let's not fool ourselves.

like it all begins and ends and runs through him. And when he's firing on all cylinders, they're just unstoppable. His ability from that kind of right half wall to just command the attention of the defense. And if they sag off a bit, he will pick the top corner and score gladly. If they sag a bit towards him,

you'll fire it across the ice and basically give Stevens Damcoast and alleyup dunk to finish off. And so he can really do it all. And so you're right with Stone. He is in a great spot now. They're using him in that kind of and Ovechkin shot on the power play.

I imagine his goal totals and point totals will be higher and more impressive this year. It feels like there's a lot of buzz towards him not only finally kind of bucking the trend and being a winger that wins a sell key, but also potentially being in the heart discussion. And if Vegas is as good as we think they are and could very well win the West, as their best offensive player or the guy with the highest totals for them, he will certainly draw a lot of that love. And so I think those two guys are pretty clearly one too. and there isn't too much more to be said about him.

Dreisaitel, who you had at four and I had at three. I mean, I initially was slow to come around to this. I was definitely one of the people who would constantly talk about how I'd love to see him carry his own line and play away from McDavid and see how he does. And I still think, you know, probably from a big picture perspective, that would behoove the Oilers. The problem is they've done such a bad job both surrounding them with wingers. then it's like maybe the strategy of just playing those two guys together and just playing them all the time is their best way to go.

I'm not sure how sustainable it is for a full season. I know people have talked about like, or some Oilers fans have pushed back when I was talking about his usage earlier. And they're like, well, he did it last year so you can do it again. But I think there's a big difference between the 22 or so minutes he was playing last year and the 25 plus he's playing so far this year. And it is going to be interesting to see how much those guys can happen. And clearly the Oilers will go as far as Ezrae Settel and McDavid can take them. But I mean, listen, so far in six games, he's got 12 points and he's playing 25.08 a night. So there's not much more.

There's not much more that he could do. And he looks so good. He looks, he's like one of those guys that's surprisingly fast because he looks so big and lumbering that sometimes you can kind of just think of him as being slower. But he takes advantage of that. And he kind of catches defenders off card and burst through the seam there. and yeah, I mean, he, there's occasions where you watch them and I know this can kind of sound sacrilegious, but there's occasions where he is the best player on the ice. And that's a remarkable thing to say for a guy who does play with on the same team and on the same line as the best player in the world.

Yeah. And I think, you know, as much as we always talk about, you know, a guy like Drehill, you want to see him carry his own line. And I think this is one of those situations where this summer we had the Huawei debates where, and a little, that people were like kind of dunking on the general public for still using them and saying like, oh, they're weak compared to the models. And, you know, you had some people kind of sitting on the sidelines like myself saying like, yeah, I get it. But at the same time, the average person isn't going to want to read like a 4,000 word treatise on what your model does. But WOWY is easily explainable and kind of gets the point across. As long as you, you know, keep in mind the

fundamental weaknesses of that kind of measure. And I think those fundamental weaknesses has really hurt Leon DryCyto's evaluation. Because when he's not with McDavid, he's with trash. And McDavid can kind of do whatever because he's McDavid. And just because Drycidal isn't as good as McDavid doesn't mean he can't carry a line. It's just he can't carry a line with sub, like mid-level HL players. And I don't, yeah, that's one of those things where like I wouldn't really knock him for it. And I think when you look at the individual stuff that Dry Cytle does,

does, even away from McDavid, you can see that he does carry those lines and quite well, even if the results aren't necessarily great. It's just because there's only somewhat you can do with four boat anchors attached to your butt. You know, and Drysidels, one of the best possession driving players in the league, he's unbelievably good at bringing that puck from the defensive zone to the offensive zone. And, you know, you put that with McDavid and it's absolute magic. And you take him apart from McDavid, and it's still really good. good. He's not going to create as much offense as McDavid does, but the offense he does create,

it's usually going to be him shooting. And that's big two. You know, last year, 50 goals. Wouldn't be surprised if he hits that again a couple times in his career. He's got so much talent. And he's the kind of guy that like a couple seasons from now, you might see him atop the winger position, you know, partially because he's going to feed off of McDavid on the power play and probably at even strength. But also because he is that good. he is he certainly is he's an absolute monster and his ability to do everything he does for that team i mean it's uh you know part of it is is that a necessity but his ability to hold up and actually do it is an entirely different thing and and he makes it look easy so um yeah when i went into this process i wasn't

expecting him to have have him as high as that because i was a bit more skeptical skeptical on him but the more you watch him and the more you look into the numbers it was just his case was kind of indisputable or unassailable in a way um All right, Andrew, we finally did it. We powered through it. We got through the wingers. We've done all the positions. This was a blast.

I'm already looking forward to the 2020 version of it next September. Plug some stuff. Where can people check out your work? What are you working on and all that good stuff? The usual three articles a week for Sportsnet. You can always check that out. You can Google Sportsnet and my name and my contributor page will show up. I think you can even subscribe to an RSS feed if you really like me.

and Winnipeg Free Press as well. And, hey, if you got some money to burn, I've still got a donation page up for the P.K.C. Suban Foundation. I did a spin-a-thon in August, which I need to raise some money for, and I've been slacken. So that's for the families of sick kids, because when you have a kid in the hospital, oftentimes you're going to be missing work.

And even though we have universal health care here, it's going to hurt you financially. So those people need help, and that's what the foundation is. for. Oh, that's a great cause, man. And people should definitely check that out. And thanks for, thanks for taking the time to do this. It was a blast as always. And we'll have you back on soon. My pleasure, man. Looking forward to it. Cheers. The hockey PDOCAST with Dimpilovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovic and on SoundCloud at

soundcloud.com slash hockeypedocast.