The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 324: King Nathaniel MacKinnon's Coronation

Episode Date: November 18, 2019

Ryan Clark joins the show to discuss the Colorado Avalanche, how they did a complete 180 and became a model franchise, and the next steps for them to go from exciting young upstart to legitimate contender. 3:00 How much things have changed since 20176:30 Nathan MacKinnon putting a depleted team on his back10:00 How MacKinnon took his game to the next level18:00 Gabe Landeskog changing his style to fit in30:00 5-man units, modernized hockey, and stacking defensemen37:00 The traits that make Cale Makar special already43:00 Colorado's window, avenues for improvement, and thinking aheadSee acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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Welcome to the HockeyPedioCast. My name is Demetri Philpovich. and joining me as my good buddy, Ryan Clark. Ryan Clark, what's going on, man? Not much. What about you? Not much at all. I mean, I'm excited. This is a, you know, I feel like we're doing like the Vancouver car wash here for the podcast

where it's like people are coming into town covering different teams and I'm just like having them on the podcast and deep diving them. So I did one with Sean Shapiro. Right. Yeah. I was your co-worker and now you and I are going to talk about the apps today. I know. I mean, like, but here's the thing.

Like this is a hell of a place to go to a car wash through because like you look outside and earlier today, it's, you know, Pacific Northwest Jury, which living in Seattle, I'm like, okay, I can live with that. this. And then now you look at the sun and it's like, I can live with this too. So like, you're in a pretty good spot if you're like, hi, come on through. Let's talk. Yeah, I'm just hanging out. I'm like, oh, while you're in town, let's enjoy the beautiful scenery. Let's talk about about hockey. Oh, yeah. And it has a fun. So, I mean, I'm excited about this because I actually don't think this is episode 324 of the podcast. I've, you know, a lot of it is a national podcast. So, like,

generally, we're like bouncing around from team to team. But I do like to really kind of familiarize myself with individual teams, do deep dives. And I don't think I've done an Aves deep dive on podcast yet and its history. And, you know, part of that was when it started. It was like the end of the Patrick Guad days. Sure. The team was a bit of a joke. And then they were the worst team in the league in the first-gener Jared Bednar. But, you know, recently, I've been, I've been focusing on them during the playoffs and stuff, but no, like, individual show where it was just like from start to finish Pierre Avalanche talk. So I'm excited to do this. Man, no pressure. So thanks for building that off. Yeah, yeah, no pressure at all. It's, it's the first. Who knows? Might be the last.

I'll see. I'm sure. I'm sure this team's going to give us plenty to talk about because, I mean, they've been to keeping you busy, and they're really fun to watch. I mean, they certainly are just because kind of your point about where they were 2016-17. They have the worst record in the salary cap era, and people are looking at Joe Sackett going, what are you going to do with this? And then here you go three years later, and everyone's looking at this team going, A, could they really challenge for something serious this year and B, how did they get there? And I know it's easy to say, well, hit on first round picks, but like we were saying in Edmonton last night,

if hitting on first round picks were easy, I mean, that's a franchise that, you know, it would have been able to hit on all the different guys that it's come through. But when you look at it, the two big ones, of course, were Hall and some guy named Connor McDavid. And, yeah, exactly. Nugent Hopkins has had a good career. But, you know, people wouldn't say he's become what you would expect of a number one. But when you think of the guys that have come through, like Sam Gagnez, you know, Poyarvi, Emil Yaakovov being another one.

I mean, it's just proof that you can have all these plans, but it doesn't mean it'll work. No, of course, yeah, it's a team sport. You have to hit on a bunch of other things. And that's what's so interesting to me about this AFS team. And we can talk about McKinnon and McCar here and individual players in a second. But I guess while we're talking about this sort of team building component of it, what really interesting me about the Aves is, you know,

we go from what, 2016-17 was Benner's first year where they had like 48 points or something like that. Yeah, 40 points. Yeah. So it's funny to me how and clearly, I mean, it goes on saying you win games, you have success. People start writing good stories about you. I think the perception changes. But it's like, you know, for them to,

clearly have a vision. They put Bednar in front of this team that isn't going anywhere that season, and they kind of take their lumps, they take their losses pretty much every night. They have a historically bad season. They stick with the coach. I know like myself, during the start of Joe Sackackett's career, tenure, running the team, I remember being kind of like, just because he was a former player and he's an abs legend, is he qualified to be running this team?

Some of the early returns were highly up and down in suspect, and I think the questions were fair. And now I think, you know, the general perception of the avalanche is that they're probably like one of the top handful like premier like well run from top to bottom, organizationally all pushing and pulling in the right in the same direction. And it's just crazy like how quickly that script is sort of flipped for this for this organization. No, it has. And I mean, and just from talking to different people in the organization, Dimitri, everyone is very clear about saying, hey, it starts and ends with Joe Sackick. And it doesn't come from like this place of, hey, they're trying to say nice things about their boss. It's like literally not that I've tried to ask, but like people will not. say anything bad about Joe Sackick, but the way it works... You've got to give him a couple beers first, and then they'll open up. Seeing as how I've never had a beer, I'm probably the worst person to do that with. But I think with Joe Sackick, and I mean, just talking whether it be with his assistant general managers, people, and development, the scouting aspect, they've all said what

it started off with was it was setting a criteria for players they want. They want guys who are, of course, fast that are skilled, that have hockey sense and intelligence. And I mean, if they have a two-way ability, that only amplifies it. And so it's just a matter of looking at who fits those needs. And not only that, but just like, you know, what sort of package do they come in. I mean, you look at this team. You have, you know, smaller skaters, medium-sized skaters. Then you have larger players like, you know, Miko Rontenen and Nikita Zedoroff, who, you know, again, they're six, four and six-five respectively. And then they've been able to find guys like Ryan Graves, who came over to Chris Beegraud trade. And now he is someone who's playing, you know,

top four minutes with Kail McCarr, he's on the PKK. And that's really just what it's been. It's just been resetting their strategy and trying to find people who fit within that. And right now it looks like it's going to plan. But again, it's like anything. We won't know the full answer until it's all completed. Yeah, absolutely. Although the first, I guess, inklings of the first signs are that, you know, they are headed in the right direction.

And we're going to get talking more about that. But let's talk about Nathan McKinnon. Who's that? I'm joking. I'm excited to do this. So you know what? It's interesting. This Aves team, they start off the year,

red-hot, there's a ton of goals. Then they kind of go through the stretch right now where, you know, they don't have Ranton and they don't have Lanniskeg, Zodorov's out, Colin Wilson's out, like they have a bunch of injuries and they're sort of, I think, in the mode of kind of braving the storm a little way. They're kind of just like trying to hang on until they get help and they get those pieces back, right? And we saw, you know, we're recording this on a Friday, early evening last night. They, you know, they got a front row seat for the Connor McDavid show.

They really took, I meanton took him for a ride there for a little bit. and they look like a tired, thin team that was playing on the road. But with McKinnon, there's so many directions that I'd like to take this. But I guess, you know, this conversation of like, who's the best player in the world? And I think, I don't know, you follow them closely. So I'm sure you're kind of a bit partial with McKinnon. I do still think it's McDavid. Oh, no, it is.

He kind of reminded us of that a little bit in that head to head. And, you know, we don't typically see too much like mono-a-mono in hockey. It's not as much as like basketball, for example. but I think it was a pretty good reminder of what McDavid's capable of. But, you know, McKinnon's really taken this team and put them on his back. And I think people wanted to see that a little bit because the knock on him, especially in the MVP discussion over the past couple years, was, well, yeah, he's got great numbers, but he's also playing with two amazing players in Randon and Atlantis Gog and how much

of it is an individual effort. Sure. And now he, I mean, the team is struggling a little bit, but he himself, I mean, you look at just the individual numbers in these seven or eight games without them and they're through the roof. Like, he's doing it all for this avalanche, too. Well, I mean, let's go back to the year he finished runner-up to Taylor Hart. Assuming Taylor Hall on the Hart conversation.

Taylor-Hard, yeah, I like it. Oh, Lord. But to be for real, I mean, you think about those games that he missed and the avalanche were struggling without him. And, you know, some people felt like, hey, look, when you look at the win-loss record with him in the lineup versus when he's injured, I mean, that should be a telling metric in the sense of how valuable he is to this team. But even when you look at last year, when they went through that late playoff push to backdoor their way in. Right. I mean, this was a team that lost Gabriel Landiscock for an extended period, Miko Ronsonon, and for an extended period. And they were playing in with different players, and McKinnon was still getting points

and still being productive. And I mean, yeah, I mean, if he tried to get like, what, a thousand shots and San Jose, he had to get 100, but he finished with 99. Whereas if you look at this year, and it seems like with the initial forward depth they brought in before the injuries continue to mount, you look at what he was doing with those three, and they looked like they were functioning well. But this season, to see him play with Matt Calvert and Jonas Donskoy, that unit certainly strong. struggled against the Oilers on Thursday night. But when you look at what they did against Winnipeg, but really what they did against Nashville when they first played together, it's a sequence of McKinnon gets the puck, Calvert and Don Skoy, they get to the net front and whatever happens,

happens. So if it's a high, low pass that leads to a defenseman taking a shot or McKinnon firing from wherever, you have two people there who can either A redirect it or B, get a rebound. And, well, that might sound simple. That hadn't always been the plan in place. whenever Landisog or Ronson and were hurt. And so you're seeing Nathan McKin and not only drive a line when Landisog and Ronson are in the lineup, but when they're without the lineup, it's made clear. This is the plan to make him involved, whether it's him launching sometimes five to ten shots, guys getting rebounds, him moving through traffic.

It's clear it's his job to kind of orchestrate, and it's everyone else is to kind of read and react. Yeah, I mean, I actually wrote down the numbers here just because I did want to hammer it home. Eight games, you know, five goals and six assists. I mean, that's nothing out of the norm for him. I think the 53 shots on goal, 79 shots attempted. Like, he's really taking it upon himself right now

to, like, kind of will this team towards victory or get the puck into the net. And he's had such a fascinating career arc for me because, you know, he's top prospect. He's getting all these kind of comparisons to Crosby because of where they play to where they came from. He's the number one overall pick in this loaded draft class. And he comes in and, you know,

he had an amazing rookie year as an 18-year-old. it took him a while he'd struggled with some injuries um you know he really struggled as a as a shooter in terms of converting his looks into goals and um the avalanche i guess benefit from that a little bit because they buy low when his shooting percentage is low they get him on like the most sweetheart team friendly deal is making 6.3 million till 2023 now or whatever and and so they're going to be benefiting from that for years to come but um you know for him i wonder if you ever talked about this with him or or if he's talked about it locally i'm not sure but i haven't been seen anything and you know maybe it's something about during his playing days he's like too

close to it and maybe he'll reflect on it later on in his career or when he's done but just what happened there in terms of like what that adjustment was from age whatever 21 22 when he kind of flipped that switch and became this player because uh the talent was never in question but i don't think it's as simple as like oh you know he just started working harder or or whatever like i something fundamental must have changed for him to become from just like a good player to like top five player in the world. You don't you don't typically see that leap especially after 300 or so in HL games play. It was interesting because we had a story kind of touching on that last year and Tyson Barry, who's actually McKinnon's best friend, made this really interesting point. He said with Nate,

it was taking his nutrition and other things like working out a lot more seriously. So he was like, you know, when we first came to the NHL together, he was like, you know, Nate would come on the team playing with, you know, pop and a bag of chips. And, you know, it wasn't like he was being careless with what he ate, whereas if now, like, you look at McKinnon and it's clear, like, he takes so, such good care of his body at a point where it's like he walks in. And it's, like, whatever self-esteem issues you think you don't have, you do by staring at him. And you're like, oh, wow, I actually lost 15 pounds this summer. And I just gained it all back just looking at him. But to be serious, like, I've heard quite a few people say, like, it was this change and this

kind of dedication to fitness that has made him what he is. And so it's not even like just those things, but again, it's just being more regimented in those things. And I think the other thing, too, that probably turned it around in a sense was you look at what he did in that World Cup of hockey, which, you know, it's so fascinating to look at Teen North America. Because I know before we went on air, we were joking about Chris Peters, but, you know, he and I talk every day. And he was saying that Team North America for him ruined hockey because it's like, we will never see anything quite like that again. Right. You think, about his performance in that tournament, the move against Lundquist and in overtime. And that's really

kind of like that first moment where you're like, wow, this guy could actually kind of carry this. And since then, we've seen more and more and more of that. So really it sounds like it's just kind of been from what everyone says, this idea that, you know, look, it took time for him to kind of be where he is. But it's also this commitment to fitness and commitment to other things because, you know, the thing about a guy like McKinnon, and I hope this isn't too ignorant of a thing to say. But like you look at the NHL and when it comes to development, there's no other league like it in a sense of like

if you are 18, 19, or 20 and you are picked in the top five and you're not like McDavid, Matthews, McKinnon, Eichol, Krosby, Vechkin, good. There's all of a sudden this question of, well, what's gone wrong with your development? If you're a 21 year old in the NFL,

the NBA in Major League Baseball, there's this understanding. You're a 21 year old. It's going to take time. Or like pretty much any other job in life. Yeah, exactly. You're a 21-year-old kid. You're still an idiot. They'll figure this out eventually.

Yeah, exactly. It's like, what do you mean? You're 23 and you don't have all the answers yet? And it's like he would be a grad student or like a senior if he was just a regular human being. But again, that's just kind of the thing about hockey is it's like it's a sport that sometimes we look at prospects and we think at 16, 17, 18. We project it how they're going to be. But again, like for every first rounder that doesn't work out, there's someone like an Andre Palat who goes undrafted where you look at him now. And it's like that guy is not only, you know, having a hell of a career, but he's getting paid really well while doing it for a franchise that just, again, you talk about drafting well and developing in Tampa.

So again, you just never know. Well, it's so fascinating that you bring up that sort of off the ice work in terms of nutrition and training and sort of the stuff behind the scenes that we don't really get to see that goes in goes into actual on ice product. And I think my working theory for it has been that he did also like, I don't know how a phrase like intellectual. actually developed a bit as well and it makes sense considering that he's at that age. I'm sure there was a lot of like watching tape and what was going wrong. And for him, the question's never been how fast he can go because we still see it now. I mean, that one goal he scored against Winnipeg where he like starts off in his own zone. Right. And then all of a sudden like two freeze frames later, he's by himself scoring a goal. And it's like how the heck did he get from point A to point B that fast. And he still has that breakaway speed. But I think for him, what I've noticed is it seems like he realized and I'm not sure how much of this was his own doing. How much of it. coaching like you don't always need to go a hundred and ten percent especially in the offensive zone because sometimes you're just getting yourself out of position if you're just constantly if you have one move and put your head down and go to the net as fast as you can and you know his padden move I think now has become that sort of like stop short

and transition move where he's going full speed and you can tell the defenders and the goalie are both like oh crap like we better buckle in here and he kind of puts them on their heels and then he just stops and then all of a sudden he waits for a trailer to come to an offensive zone or hits them with a pass and right just sort of that like variation that he's tossed into his game and sort of knowing when to push all the right buttons I think is sort of what I've noticed with him in terms of that natural progression recently. And to add to that, I mean, the other thing he does too is whenever he gets the puck and makes that stopping move, he does something with his hands, with his wrist that just, it's almost

like enough eye candy to use that term to where you're paying attention to it. And then yes, he gets that trailer. And so when you look at how that line started off so well last year, Peter McNabb, the analyst for the avalanche on altitude, made this really good point. And he's like, the thing that makes that line so good, there's two aspects. The first is you have a natural center with a natural left winger and a natural right winger. You're not trying to fit a center into a winger spot, so on and so forth. And the second thing is they played these one-two combinations so well. And we saw this quite a bit early on where you would have, you know, Landisgog in the corner

and McKinnon not far away to play, you know, a kind of supporting role. and then you'd have Miko Ronton and left alone to take shots here or there and everywhere. But then I think as more teams kind of started figuring that out, it then became not only try to incorporate that, but play their strengths. And with Landisog, I mean, he's developed into being a player who once he gets to the net front with his strength,

like he can get opportunities. Ronan can use his size to hold on to the puck to where he can take a hit at the last minute, but he can get the puck off quick enough to where whoever he passes it to has space. And with McKinnon, it's about, how he uses his time, how he uses his space, but not only that, but you think about what he was in the queue, and everybody talked about the scoring ability. I mean, people talked about the

distributing some, whereas if you look at it now, and he's become a much stronger distributor and facilitator of the puck. And so when you look at all those different components, that's what's kind of led to him being this more complete player. And even this year, the thing you've seen from him that you may not have seen much of in previous years is his forechecking and back checking on the defensive end, it seems like there's a greater commitment to that. Yeah. I think that is such an astro point in terms of the playmaking because he has so much attention on him with that speed.

It's like everyone, it's just human nature, even as a well-trained athlete where you're like focusing on your positioning. It's like, how can you not help but have your eyes gravitate towards this just like freak of nature that is just storming down the ice? And so if everyone is looking at him, that likely means that someone on his own team is wide open or getting lost in coverage. And if he's able to actually get them the puck, all of a sudden. side and that opens so many avenues for the avalanche to score.

Well, not only that, but it's almost the hilarity of you're allowing Gabriel Landisog to get open. The hilarity of you're allowing Miko Ronanin to have space knowing that if one of those two has the puck, it's that thought in the back of your mind of so what do you do? Do you try to pressure one of them knowing that, hey, 29 and 96 are lurking or if it's Ronan and it's 29 and 92? And so again, like that's just really the thing is like they have found a way to not only be dangerous together, but they're dangerous in their own separate way. And that's what's so interesting about Gabriel Landisog, once he returns is you think about last season, and if he doesn't get hurt, he's on pace for a 41 goal season. And just to see his maturation

as a score, I mean, just looking at different charts and graphs, you know, early on in his career, he was someone who he tried to be more spread out in kind of the low slot as well as just, you know, the faceoff circle. But last year, he really stuck to one zone. So it was really more or less, like the left-hand side where a higher concentration of his shots were coming from. But not only that, but the net front, which the interesting part about that is, that's one of the areas the avalanche struggled with in 2017-18, yet you look at Landisog, it's where they've improved. And you look at him now, I mean, Calvert does it.

Landisog, when healthy, does it. Jonas Danskoi, for story we just did, he was even like, in San Jose, I watched Joe Pavelski do this in practice, and I was like, I need to be better. And so, in fact, he took this past summer, and he watched every goal of his career. and it was like, I don't get to the net front enough. So you're starting to see more of that component really sort of drive this team into getting goals. I think that adjustment from Landisog is so key because when you have three guys like McKinnon, Randon, and Landiscag, there's going to have to be sacrifices that are made, right?

Just like anything, it's like if you're the main guy on a team and you're playing with two complementary players, you know, we can run the offense more through you. But whereas in this case, like Landisog is never going to be as flashy per se as Randon McKinnon so he does a lot of this like dirty work around the net exactly and that adjustment of like I remember when he came into the league he was a high volume shooter where like he would constantly put the puck on net from all different areas of the ice and now like he's sort of um I'm sure it's a conscious effort like refined his game to the sense where he's like I'm not going to have as many opportunities so I got to have to make them more count more so I'm going to go to these

areas and kind of be there when opportunities open up for me and it's just been interesting to see that progression from him he's still such a young guy too but he's been in our lives for so long now that it feels like he's this like old grizzled like cagey veteran that is like on his last legs and he's like trying to finally win a chip and it's like no he's still like in his prime yeah he's 26 he turned 27 later this month like changes so much based on like just like how long he's been in our lives well that and like i mean kind of mixing metaphors here but like to hear you talk about his kind of progression it almost makes you think a little bit about draymond green you know when draymond green first came to the NBA at michigan state i mean he was a guy who led the team in

scoring and then when he came to the NBA and then of course he was he came to the NBA and then of course, you know, you start changing things with Steve Kerr. People thought there's no way someone who's six foot seven could actually be this good center. But then the thing you saw was, not only could he get you eight, nine, ten rebounds a game, but he could distribute. And he became this point forward that really took pressure off Steph Curry, which allowed Steph Curry and Clay Thompson and eventually Kevin Durant to get open. And it was just such a change in his game. And with Landisog, it's kind of the same thing where he's someone that can definitely shoot from different angles and he has the ability to do it. But at the same time,

If you're him, you have to realize, if I have the puck, what's the best use of it? Is it to have it with McKinan so he can create more? Is it to have it with Miko Ranton in so he can do the same? And the byproduct of that being, it allows Landiscaught to get to the net front or wherever else to get these sort of scoring opportunities. No, that is the right analogy. I was actually, when I was talking about it, I was like, I won't go there just because I know people hate sometimes when I talk constantly about basketball on the show,

although I am an NBA fan myself. But it's like, it reminds you of like when like Bosch, Wade, and Label Braun initially came together and it's like, oh, one of them's going to have to sacrifice. They can't have all the same shots they were getting before. And it was Chris Bosch. And he kind of developed this like corner three that they added to his game. And I think that's similar here too where it's like Landis Gog kind of like needs to like fade back a bit into the background and develop his game into something else and kind of be there

to fill the void for those other two guys. And so watching that marriage and sort of that that relationship of those three guys all making each other better and figuring out where they're going to be on the ice is such a fascinating storyline. Well, it is especially when like, I hope this can get too off topic. but you look at the Boston comparable with Posternak, you know, Marshawn and Bergeron, because with Bergeron, the thought's always been, he's such a gifted two-way player that you thought, okay, if he could ever get more offense into his game,

like would that give maybe the public at large or great appreciation for what he does? And with Marchan, like, it's kind of wild to think that his profile went from being sort of this kind of annoying agitator who had a little bit of offense to now you look at him. And like, no, he's one of the most dangerous scores in the league. Yeah, like purely one of the most skilled guys. Yeah, and Posternak's same thing. I mean, like, everybody talks about, you know, his ability to score and where he can do it, but his ability to distribute as well is also dynamic.

And so it seems like with those three, it became less about who has to sacrifice, but more in a sense of like, okay, whose strengths do you amplify and where do you amplify them and how do you amplify them? Whereas if with Colorado, it became an understanding of there's a lot of strengths here, but at what moment is the right strength for this team to score goals. and that's really been the whole interesting thing about the evolution of both those lines because everybody always says,

look, one of those two is considered to be the best line in hockey. And while they're both effective, it's just they've been able to do it in such a different way. But that's the, I mean, that's the thing. In hockey, it's not ever as simple as, like, let's just put the three best players on this team together because sometimes, like, you know,

you can have clashing, playing styles or sort of like point of diminishing returns or it's like if two guys do the exact same thing well and they both want to be in the same area of the ice, like it's not necessarily going to work and maybe you want to split those guys up. So for these guys to all at such a young age, especially as well, kind of morph their games into what's going to work best for the guys around them is really

impressive. And sort of you see that in the results in terms of, I guess they were put together, like right after the Matt Duchyne trade or something like that. And, you know, their results pretty much since then are right up there, especially in terms of maybe not shot share, but in terms of the goals, like they've just been absolutely destroying teams since those three guys got United. Well, and not only just, I mean, have they been able to do that?

But I mean, I know we'll get into this a little bit more. But we think about those. three, but then the other component of all this is you look at what's on the back end. And so you've gone from a defense that initially your primary options were out of Eric Johnson and Tyson-Berry. So yeah, Eric Johnson's still there, but the primary puck mover in his pairing is Samuel Gerard, which gives him another element. And then you have kale McCarr as well, which also gives him another element. And that's just it. It's like we've heard Jared Bednar speak, especially lately about this being such a five-man game and the sense of creating offense.

and that's just it is for as talented as those three are. Like when they get defensive support with these high-low passes or with other dynamics they're able to use, like they really are able to sort of control the tempo. And so, again, like, let's look at Edmonton last night with a lot of those goals. I mean, the thing is like, it's so easy to say, how did they score all those goals?

Connor McDavid. But the thing is, it's like it's the puck movement. Right. And so there was one goal. I want to say it might have been, yeah, it was the goal McDavid had the hat trick. I mean, they were on the left. side of the ice and it was just pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, high low, high low. But yet you've got

Connor McDavid by himself in an ocean of space. And it's just then you slide the puck over to him. And all he needs to take is two steps and boom. Yeah. It's a wrist shot and it goes in. And it's just, it just speaks to the importance of when you have everybody who can contribute, it's just going to lead to better opportunities. And I think that's something you could see with that first line when everybody gets healthy, which right now, that's kind of the big question is when does everyone. one get healthy. True. There was that one goal that McDavid scored last night.

It was, I think it was the second one maybe. Or maybe we were talking about the same one. Yeah, because there were four men on the blue line. Yeah, he just like sped past Matt Nieto and then two skated back and even in. They were like, you could tell. They were like, it was like this like wind came and they were just like so scared of getting beaten out wide that they like took three steps back further than they probably should have.

And then McDavid just like settled into this crease in the middle of the ice and just whipped it past the goal. Yeah, because that's just said it's like the coverage was there. Right. But at the same time, like even though the coverage is there. there how much of that coverage is really like structured and concrete because it's one thing to know, hey, we're going to force you to go a certain area. But with him, given that he just blew by Matt Nieto, who has speed in his own right, if you're the defense, you're just like,

well, what do you do? Is it? Like, you're just sitting there thinking, like, is it better just to give up the middle? And, you know, people say, hey, look, Adam Warner was a guy who was just in the H.L. But on one hand, Adam Warner had a great night against Patrick Liney. So not that, you know, we're saying, I mean, look, Line is a great player, but Connor McDavid is Connor McDavid. So, I mean, again, just what is it? Is it just, hey, this is Connor McDavid, welcome to the NHL. Was it something else? But either way, it's just last night was an example of no matter what you try to do, give him space, don't give him space, whatever.

He's going to find an answer. You know what those guys are thinking? Please don't wind up on a highlight reel. Please don't wind up on an highlight. I don't know if I go that. Yeah, no, I think that's about it I had, that I have on McKinnon at least. Like, we got into sort of his career arc and sort of how he's developed. I guess we could transition.

Is there any other sort of things on McKinnon that you find interesting? Or that, like, just from covering them that you've kind of gleaned over the years? I don't know. Sure. I mean, I would say the interesting thing about McKinnon is just watching the way he works within the leadership construct of that team. And so the way Jared Benner described it was Landiscox the captain. And, I mean, he does everything that you want with a captain.

I mean, he's the figurehead. he's the statesman he has this sort of regality to him and eric johnson is there more in this kind of veteran purpose who he can play that supporting role but they're like mckenon's the one who's like he's it's his job to kind of play like this emotional leader and like he's the one who will get up and and try to cheer people go like cheer people on and try to get them going and so something that was so telling is you know the avalanche released a clip of adam warner getting his first shutout and so the whole room was quiet and mckinin was the one who presented him with this podcast and gave him the speech.

And I think that's something that when you look at him is not necessarily often discussed. It's just kind of the role he plays as a leader. And with Gabriel Landisog being out, I mean, yes, you still have Eric Johnson, but Pierre Edward Belmar has been an assistant captain. Well, yes, excuse me, an alternate captain. And then, of course, he gets injured.

Then Matt Calvert, now it's back to Belmere. But to see the way McKinnon has sort of grown into that role has been something interesting to see. All right, let's take a quick break in here from a sponsor, and then we're going to pick up this conversation. Sponsoring today's episode of the Hockey Pideokest is C. Here at the PEDEOCast, one thing we value above all else is efficiency. It's finding hidden value.

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So download the Seek app today and use promo code PDO for $10 off your first purchase. That's promo code PDO for $10 off your first purchase. Now let's get back to the show. So you were mentioning there with Bednar talking about, like five-man units and sort of we don't think about hockey in that way because you think you break it up into more so like forward lines and defense pairs and we never really think about like how these five guys interchange how they play together one of my favorite things watching uh the avalan especially in the post season and i can see why bednar would be more reluctant to do this throughout

the grind of an 82 game season because you don't want to show your best cards but you also are kind of it's a marathon and you're sort of pacing yourself and we've seen it when they've been down or when they've been uh trying to hunt for a goal can i take a guess That's what you're going to say, the Gerard McCarline? Oh, my God, yeah. I mean, like, I need, I need some, like, I try to watch as many of the Aves games live as I can because they have so many players that are, you know, just really fun to watch. Sure.

You know, on, like, a Thursday night when there's, like, eight different games on at once or whatever, sometimes you're bouncing around or you're not watching. I need, like, I need some sort of, like, a game, like a red zone version of, like, these two guys are out on the ice. They're about to take an offensive zone draw, and I could just, like, quickly go on it. Because watching the interplay between those guys, like, They just do stuff where we're so used to like, all right, this is the blue line. This is like where a defenseman typically hover around and maybe they can walk the blue line.

And I know McCarra does that very well, but you're sort of like stuck in this zone. Don't go past it because you're going to get out of position. And it's like, no, these guys are just like redefining what modern hockey looks like where there's an open space down the right circle. One of them goes down there and another guy fills the void that he left behind. And they're just kind of like, it's just like rhythmic action where they're just moving back and forth and they're not trying to force anything. they're just basically taking whatever the defense gives them and just watching those two guys play off of each other in the offensive zones like one of my favorite.

Well, and I think the sequence everybody looks at Dimitri is the one against San Jose where they're just interchanging and interleuding. And the thing about watching that is there's a couple that hit you. The first is how are they making this look so seamless? The second, one of them was literally just taking a philosophy class not that long ago. And he's out here with the confidence to do this against the San Jose Sharks. But then the other thing that you look at with those two is this. I mean, as much as we just talked about the McKinnon line,

like when they're doing that, you kind of forget, like, wait, they could pass this to McKinnon, or Landis Scott, or Ron. Because you're just focused on the tool of that. Exactly. And it's one of those things where Bettner has kind of used it more situationally, like you said. Like if it's one of those things where he feels they need a jolt, they will go to those pairings, that pairing of Kayle McCarr and Samuel Girard. And we recently had a story about Kayle McCar and just kind of how the first 15 games,

he even said, hey, at UMass, it was kind of a buffer he needed. And you look at the way he's been playing lately. And I mean, look, right now it's safe to say that he leads to the Calder conversation. And, you know, talking to Sam Gerard, you know, Gerard was saying that whenever they are paired together, there's already this natural understanding that, like, okay, if he needs to be the one who jumps into attack, McCar has no problem hanging back and vice versa. And what's even more intriguing is there are two of the more quiet personalities on the team. And so I got a chance with Mark Del Geyso, who is, most of the same.

McCar's defensive partner, UMass last year. And it was funny because his first two years, well, it's only two years, he only had two defensive partners, Mario Ferraro in year one and Del Geyso in year two, already through, we're about to go into game 20 as of Saturday. He's had Nikita Zadaroff, Ian Cole,

he's Ryan Graves, and then let's say three and a half with Gerard whenever the time, you know, meets it. And so talking to Del Geyso, who's also pretty quiet, he was saying with him and McCar, like they would communicate when need be,

but they would give each other this look, and it started with Kail in the sense of if they needed to do something, all it took was this one look and they were there. So I don't know necessarily if Samuel Gerard and Kail McCart at that point yet, but it's one of those things where it's just like when they're on the ice, they just seem to understand, hey, when it's your turn to go, I'll stay here, vice versa. And it's just, it's interesting to, because people have asked, well, why doesn't Bednar play that combination more? Because, like, yes, they can both play that defensive role. but the thing I keep coming back to is it's that goal of Vander Kaine scored.

So you're seeing Kail McCar go up against Evander Kane, who at VanderKain's 6-2-210 with a mortgage. And that's a way of saying, he has this kind of brute strength that a guy like McCar, while he's getting stronger, you need to have someone bigger out there. And so again, maybe we see them more as a pairing in the coming years, but for now it's still just the idea of like you have one, one place, one another,

which is a good setup to have. have. Well, I mean, I listen, they've shown that they can play together. And so I'm perfectly okay, especially though the regular season. You sprinkle them in here and there strategically, offensive zone draws. If you're down a goal and you're looking to create instant offense, but it makes sense that Bednar at least for like the 82 games he'd want. You know, it's funny when you're listing those guys as common partners from Macar, I was like, oh, like, it seems like a, kind of like a prototype of a guy that they prefer, which is a bit more sort of traditional stay-at-home physical defensemen that can handle some of that heavy lifting in his own zone and kind of free up

Macar to maybe roam a bit more offensively. And so it makes sense. in terms of what they're trying to accomplish that they prefer that. But I do think that's what makes this team so interesting. We'll talk about future moves and how they can upgrade their team as well. But just this idea that come a playoff series, if push does come to shove, he does have this kind of like extra card to play in just unleashing these two guys together that I think gives this team a higher ceiling than what they're going through regularly through this 82 game grind.

Well, I mean, it does. And I think that's really kind of the fascinating, complex thing about this team, Demetri, is you see. see the pieces and you look at it and you're like, okay, this is why Vegas thinks this team has the potential to go really far into Western Conference, maybe even make it to the Stanley Cup final, but again, there's still so many games. Right. No one knows what's going to happen. But I think the theme with this team has been questionably proven in the sense of there are aspects of it that were proven, but you still

want to see more. Because for as well as Calamacard did in 10 playoff games, I mean, he's yet to go through the full 82 because I mean playing at UMass. He's playing on weekends. he has the week to recover, lift, get stronger, practice, refine things. Whereas if now it's so much go, go, go. And then on optional skates, it's like, do you want to take that time to, you know, maybe work on a few things? Or do you want to use that time to rest and maybe get away from things? And so that's just it is like that's part of like what goes into it.

But just to know that they have all these different things they can do, that's what's so interesting. Because I mean, like you look at last year's roster versus this year's roster. This year's roster is much more deep, as much. It's deeper, but not only that, but it's a lot more dynamic and a lot more complete. And I will say McCar has, I mean, he came into the season with, like, unrealistic expectations, I think, just because of what he showed us in the post. Well, absolutely.

Everyone's like, all right, yeah, he's going to come in and he's going to be, like, amazing. And he certainly had flashes, but I think, like, you know, he started off a bit slower than I think people were expecting. and, you know, the abs are taking it slow with him as well. There's no need to just, like, be like, okay, this guy's going to play 25 minutes a night for us every night now. Like, they're kind of viewing the big picture with him and with his team. And so now with these injuries, it was like, okay, who's going to step up offensively?

And, you know, Eunice Donskoi certainly has playing with McKinna on top line. And he had Hattrick and he's definitely creating more offensively than I think even the biggest Eunice Donskoi fans expected him to early on, just kind of out of necessity. But McCar has really, I think, been the guy that kind of stepped up and is creating much more and sort of looks like he's finally like locked in in that like, you know, he's really feeling himself on some of these sequences where it's like, I think, especially that goal against Winnipeg where it's like, and this is what makes him so special, it's like he could shoot the puck,

but instead he waits to get to a better area on the ice to finally get rid of it, and he winds up scoring, as opposed to just firing it into the goalie's crest or potentially shooting it right into a shot block or shin pads. And we see that so much with, you know, less skilled, but maybe less empowered defensemen as well, too, where it's like they don't want to hold onto the puck for an extra second

because it might lead to a turnover, and all of a sudden they're skating back, trying to break up a two-on-one, odd man rush. For him, he's so comfortable in his own skin And then with his skill set that, like, he's holding it on. He's holding on the puck. He's walking the blue line. He's waiting until shooting lanes open up.

And it's been really fun to watch. Like, it's, it's such a rare thing from a young defenseman to do that. Although I guess in 2019, you know, we're seeing it more and more like Quinn Hughes, for example, in the Calgary race. Sure. There's younger defensemen at an earlier age or being given the opportunity to show off those skills. It used to be like, you have to, like, pay your dues and prove it before you can play this type of flashy, offensive game. Yeah, exactly. No, let's embrace what you do your best.

And so I guess, you know, for McCar, for other defensemen like him, and for us as fans, like, it's a great spot to be in because we can just appreciate these guys skill sets. Well, and hearing you say that makes me think about something Greg Carville said. He said it a few times where he's like, you know, with Cale, he's like, kale could have had more goals last year. But he's like, the thing is, is Cale would hold on for the perfect shot. And he's like, that's something he's not going to be able to do at the NHL level. And of course, he says that in like 24 hours later, he has this goal against Winnipeg. And it's like, okay, the reality is that's not going to have. happen all the time. But the thing is, it's just like you have to respect his speed because having this conversation with Peter McNabb in the playoffs, you know, we think back to his first

game and there's that sequence where he was in Colorado's in and he just started going in the San Jose zone and like San Jose just kind of sort of backed off. And I just remember asking Peter like, why not like, you know, why do you back off? And he's like, well, here's the thing. A guy like that has so much speed that the fear is if you try to be even the slightest, show the slightest bit of aggression, he's going to burn you. And so you have to give him that sort of respect. And I think that's just it. As the closer he gets on net, you know, if you just make one move, you're going to give him open space. And so, yes, he could shoot right there or he could decide maybe I try to take advantage of more and more and more. And maybe that leads to him getting the best shot,

or maybe it's him creating the best shot for someone else. And again, that's just the other thing is just we're saying that and we're also realizing he's not played a full season. Yeah. Yeah, that's the scary thing. I love that patience. I know sometimes, you know, hockey crowds, it can be like, shoot, like, they're just like, they want something to happen and they get frustrated. And then when, if you have a good look at the net and then you pass it up for something better and it doesn't wind up materializing, you're like, oh, you know, you need to put that puck on that. You need to make the goalie stop it. And it's like, I like, especially from defensemen, like, there's no need to force a low percentage shot. Like, wait for something better to happen, especially

like we talk so much, like, puck possession's important. You want to, you don't just want to just give the way of the puck willingly and it's like if you're just taking a low percentage shot that has no real shot of going in unless something miraculous happens you're basically that's what you're doing you're just giving the puck away for no reason so why not if you're confident yourself and you have the skills to actually back it up why not keep it and wait for something better to happen well especially when you look at the construct of colorado system because i mean their whole thing is using youth and speed and just this two-way ability to just make everything work and so if you're jared bednar you want keel mccar to do these things because you figure the longer you keep it in your zone

the more you're going to tire someone out, which I mean, that's every kind of coach's philosophy is to hold on the puck forever. Let's keep the puck as far away from our night as we can. But at the same time, when you have that sort of speed, so like let's say it's that combination where you have McCar-Gar, Gerard, you've got Ronton and Landisog and McKinnon, and they're able to hold the puck. You know those are five players that they're really good at puck possession. They're good at moving with the puck, more importantly. They're great at moving without the puck. But not only that, but like they can use their individual speed in certain ways and in certain areas that really puts the defense in a compromising position.

And that's just it. It's like if you can make that work for you and get that possession and just wear people out, I mean, it allows you to have this advantage. And given that right now, let's say those five guys are on the ice, and Landisgog's the oldest at 26. Right. Like that's telling because not only do you have that youth, but then you're giving them that experience.

So in a year or two, three years time, like they've become so natural at it, like they know what they're doing with it at greater amount of confidence. Yeah. I mean, it's really fun to watch. And, you know, as we spin this forward and we sort of, like I have a note here, I really want to get into this idea of, like, how this team is trending forward in terms of what are the areas for improvement? What are the means that they can get there?

And what I'm so fascinated about by them is, one, I assume right now they're viewing Ranton and Atlantis Scott coming back as sort of like acquisitions when they come back because they're like, oh, like, we're adding these guys to our team. And I know teams like to frame it like that. There's also the element of, I think, they're banking on a lot of these young guys getting better and getting more confident, getting more comfortable with the team as well. And there's the fact that, and this is why I want to start the conversation with Joe Sackick and we're sort of pulling a full circle now. Like this team has been put together in such a thoughtful kind of forward-thinking manner where they've kept flexibility both financially in terms of not sattling themselves with these sort of albatross anchor type contracts where it's like kind of really limits what you can do. but they also drafted really well.

I thought they won the draft last year when they got Alex New Hook and Bowen Byron. And so all of a sudden now they have a treasure chest full of like draft capital and young prospects they have established. They have the financial resources and they have a young team. So I guess the question is like what's the timeline for this team and how are they viewing it from the perspective of what's our window to really go all in? Because we see time and time again that while it's nice to say, okay, this is a young team, these guys are going to get better. They're in their early to mid-20s. Look at what just happened with Winnipeg, for example, where I think two years ago, you'd be like, let's be patient. This team is going to be a contender for the next five years. Can I stop you there with Winnipeg? And I know

this is kind of getting mixing metaphors, but like, you looked at how good Winnipeg was. And you were almost like, this feels like the kind of team. Like if you were playing NHL or 2K, right? Like you rigged the system to go get. Yeah, like, how do they get all this guy? Yeah, because you're just sitting there looking and you're like, okay, I remember when they drafted Shifling, and people thought, oh, like, they reached too high. And, you look at and it's like no they have a six foot three two-way center who like what the right cast can get that offensive production and then you have wheeler and you have line a and Connor and and and you add these other guys like you know Brian little and then you know bufflin and then

you look at what happens in that and hellabuck and you're just like and troubit too you're just sitting there going like where is this coming from and you look at them now and it's just like god that window open and it's shut and no one knows when it's going to open again yeah But what's interesting to me is I think first off, I think the easiest thing to do in the NHL is to tear it down. I think everyone can probably do that. When you realize it's like, okay, it's time to like think about the future tradeaway assets. You sort of rebuild.

Obviously, you need to nail those picks. But in terms of like that area of your franchise art, that's probably the easiest thing to do. I think when you start getting these young pieces in place and then you eventually need to start paying them as well, it certainly helps that they don't have to cross that bridge with McKinn for at least a couple more years. They got Ranton and signed this summer. They got Sam Jarrar's sign. So, you know, they have a lot of these guys, at least like foundational key pieces locked up for now. But we see time and time again that like things happen very quickly in terms of like you make one bad move.

You sign one guy to a bit more than he's worth or something that's injured. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, this room for us to maneuver with and get better all of a sudden shrunk right before our eyes. Exactly. And so I think just like with everything and lifetimeing is so key. And in this case, I do think that question of like, when do you push all in? When do you go for it? When do you swing for the fences? It's never too early to ask that question because whether it's Winnipeg, whether it's Toronto now,

like if you would have thought about it two years ago the first time in the playoffs, you'd be like, this team's going to win, cops, this team's going to be set for life. And now it's like, oh my God, what's wrong with this team? They don't have any more financial responsibility. You can argue to throw Nashville in that same discussion. Yeah, there's any number of teams like this, you know, for every Chicago, whatever that has this extended cup run. There's so many other examples of teams that look like they were going to get there.

They miss it by one year and then all of a sudden they're back to square one basically. So I guess that's what I'm interested with is Colorado where they have so much of that flexibility right now and they can sort of choose when to press those buttons. I guess it's a matter of like if the opportunity presents itself. I'm sure Joe Sackick has no issues with being aggressive, but they don't necessarily need to force it either unless something does materialize. Well, the thing is in terms of when their window is, their thought is the window starts now.

because when you look at what they did in the postseason, everybody goes, okay, if Gabe Landa Scott's skate isn't where it is, maybe this is a team in the final against the blues, and who's to say what happens in the Western Conference final? I mean, you look at the blues, and I think the thought was they were just so good with Bennington that, I mean, you just, you never know, but there's always going to be that thought. Now, as far as how long it goes, it's interesting because I had this conversation with Keith Jones a little bit ago, well, really, it's been several months now. And he was saying the way Colorado's

built, he's like, this reminds him of so much of Chicago and Pittsburgh in the sense of this is a seven to 10 year window. But of course, to make that happen, and you touched on it, is it's the financial component. And so people were talking about, you know, in the summer, like, why not go for the Panarans or the Andersly like these big fishes? It's like, but here's the thing. Like, this is a franchise that has to think about the long term because like, like you said, Nathan McKeonanon right now is making 6.3 million a year. We all know that when it comes time for him to hit the open market, he is going to get paid. And if you're them, you're already looking and going, Eric Johnson's contract is going to be off the books. That's $6 million you can throw

towards Nathan McKinnon. So right now, you've got like 12-3 that you can throw at him. Maybe that's not even a big enough number. Maybe the cap right. I mean, there's so many variables. But the thing is, it's like they have to think that far down the road. They have to think about how not this coming summer, but the summer after, Gabriel Landiscag's a UFA, Philip Gruberer's UFA, Kail McCarr, because again, he burned the first year of his ELC by playing in the postseason, like he's going to come up. Now, granted, you have more control because he's a group two with no Arbites,

but at the same time, you're looking at Sam Gerard and you're looking at Miko, Ronton, and saying, we need to get a similar deal done for a guy like this in the sense of keeping him under control and not only that, but doing it within the cap. And so when you look at what they're doing, what not only those cornerstone pieces, it's so supplementary pieces. Like it's signing J.T. Comfort to a four-year deal,

but it's also seeing what happens with Andrei Burakoffsky because right now, Andre, what was lost last night? He's Andre Berikovsky had two goals. And Andre Berikovsky is having a really, really strong start. Yeah. He's making, I think, what, three, five right now, I want to say? Right. In that neighborhood.

So it's like if he continues to do that, what does that look like? But then when you look at the future, not to get too far down the road, but like what happens with Byram? What happens with Connor Timmons? What happens with New Hook, Martin Cout? I mean, Eustace Annen. Like you're talking about some prospects, Nick Henry being another one that within three years could all be on this team. And it's kind of wild to think. But the thought is this defense someday could be Sam Gerard, Keel McCarr, Bowen, and Byron, and Connor Tim.

Right. Like that's how well this thing could go. But again, like, what if Joe Sackick has a chance to make a move? What will he do? Because, I mean, look, we've seen that whenever he gets involved with a trade, whether it's DeShane, whether it's the Cadre-Berry trade, like when he swings for the fences, I mean, he swings for it. Yeah.

And you mentioned some of those names and people wondering, I think they were, I think it was reported, right? They were in on Panera. And they put in a competitive offer. Same for Joe Pavell's can't know that for a fact. And I think both of them were ultimately the state. thinking point was the player wanted more term, right? It was.

Colorado, they're thinking ahead. They're like, we don't want to give you five years because we have so many more questions to answer in five years. Well, gladly, we have the room now. We'll give you as much money as you want for the next two, three years. We're not giving you more than that. Well, because, like, I mean, let's look at Ronton. Because one of the things that, you know, we were able to find out the athletic

was when Ronton and, you know, when this whole deal, when the whole thing was going for a new contract, they actually approached him and his representatives in the spring with getting a short-term deal. Because for them, they were willing to try to do. short term so they knew what money they had available to where they could throw at, you know, again, a Panarin for another short term deal. But once they realized they weren't going to be able to make it work with Panarin, then that focus return to getting a long-term deal. And like, that's just it. It's like they're sitting there and looking at it from a standpoint of, okay, you want to

win next year and a year after, but you want to win three years, five years, seven years. And you don't want to mortgage your future because, I mean, again, it's one of those things where it's like, it's like any great team. Like you keep winning and winning and winning. Right. But even when you look at those AF teams, when Sackack and Forsberg and Waugh and they were just murdering people, every year everyone was like,

how the hell did they swing Ray Bork? How did they swing Rob Blake? Right. And then you look five years later and it's like, why don't they have any first round picks? Why don't they have any high prospects? And that's why. Yeah, no, for sure.

But, you know, it's so funny that you mention how, you know, when McKinnons do, they're going to, like, they're basically viewing it as like, oh, we're going to allot, this Eric Johnson money. there. What I noticed looking at their cap was like, so Sam Jarre d'Gow was from being on an ELC to being $5 million per season next year. Basically that entire gap there of like $4.2 million or whatever

in the difference within those two salaries comes in Tyson Berry's money and Oerbic's money coming off the books at the exact time. And, you know, I'm sure there's a little bit of luck there involved in terms of timing, but that's not, that's not a coincidence. Like that's something where like you're planning ahead in terms of like we need to make all these pieces. fit and how is that all going to come together. And I love seeing stuff like that because sometimes with NHL team is my biggest issue. And trust me, I don't, I don't pretend that I know more than all these GMs. But it's like, sometimes it feels like you're very like fly by the seat of your pants. Or it's like, oh, there's something happening. We're just going to do this. And we're going to do that.

And then you're like, oh, crap, how did this problem happen? It's like, because you didn't think that it was going to happen two steps down the road. And with this, it's pretty clear. They're like mapping out the future of like how are all of these pieces going to fit together and how can we make that work financially. Well, and the thing is it's like getting a chance to talk to different people in the front office. The way, it works is, you know, there's Joe Sackick and there's as Lieutenant, Craig Billington, and Chris McFarlane. And the thing Craig Billington was telling me for a story was all three of them talk every day about everything. So if there's something going on in the H.L. Like

Sackick and McFarlane have input. If there's something going on with McFarland's side, like Billington and Sackick have input, it's all with the idea that Sackick has the final say. But like they sit there and they discuss and they talk. And it's not necessarily having meetings to have meetings, but it's like they want to get. all these different perspectives. And for them, they think when they're able to do that, they're able to have a greater understanding of this is what they look like with the cap. This is what they look like on the on ice product at the NHL.

Here's what they look like at the AHL. And in with their development as well, which for them, I'll say it's me quiet, but development has been such a key thing because everybody looks at them and goes, wow, these first rounders. But if you take away Tyson, Barry and Ryan O'Reilly, they've not really had players who've been successful beyond this first round in several years, which is what makes them hitting on these guys like Nick Henry, like Eustace Anunin, Daniela Geroloff, like that's what makes it so important.

And I mean, to your point earlier when you said, hey, look, you thought Colorado won the draft with New Hook and Byram. There is a scout I spoke to who he said, look, they could have gone home after Friday and been done. But they're like, you look at what they did in day two by getting Drew Hellison, by getting Matthew Steinberg, Alex Bokage, like making all these moves, Trent Minor, another guy. that's where Colorado's really going to have to make the difference is what they do from rounds two through seven,

especially as these ELCs really start to play a role as you're paying these guys more and more money. Well, let's stay on brand with the PDOCass here. Let's give some love when we're talking about the front office and putting this all together with the cranky sports analytics staff as well, who I know are doing some fine work with the avalanche as well. So I think all of this, like this is a smarter organization. They know. Are you trying to get Eric Parnas of love right now? I'm, I, I, I, I, Eric Parnas, you know, been on the podcast many times back in the day.

He is so damn brilliant. One of the best guys in the industry. I'm genuinely convinced he's not a human being. He is a computer that, that is suited as a human being, almost like Brainiac from Superman. Yeah, but really personal and nice too. Oh, great guy. Great guy. Yeah, I love Eric.

I know he's listening right now, so how's it going, Eric? So is there anything else with this team that we want to touch on? It's like I didn't really want to get too far into the weeds with like their underlying numbers or sort of anything just because it's like the basically half of the sample size they haven't had two of their best players. Right. Or and then they've had Zabra up out of the lineup. They were calling listen. Like this isn't a final finished product. Basically for this team, they need to keep their head above water, stay in the playoff race and get healthy and then potentially make some upgrades around the trade deadline.

And I think they're going to be this scary team that we all expect to be. So that's what I'm looking for much more so than like worrying about why they're sort of middle of the pack in terms of shot share or so on and so forth. Because really for them, like they're viewing it kind of down the line as opposed to like worrying about where they're at on game 19. Well, and that's just it is I think it's seeing once this team gets healthy what it looks like because I mean, when it's healthy, we saw 8-1 and 1. Not saying that's always going to be the case over a 10-game sequence. But it is to say that it gives you an idea of what this team can be because, I mean, last year it was a team that went through 36 fourth line. amalgamations this year with Calvert, Belmar, and Nyado, you're looking at that lineup

and you're sitting there going, this could be one of the better, if not one of the best fourth lines in the league. And so it's not only seeing what they do there, but it's also seeing what happens when they get to the trade deadline, just because, I mean, they really haven't been in contention

to make these sort of, you know, mega, like, you stop what you're doing, sort of moves. But this year, when you look at them and you look at the fact that they've got a lot of cap space and they've got the assets, I mean, what they do on the trade deadline is going to be really fascinating. Also, we enter the season being like, all right, or I guess we entered at the end of last

season, entered the off season being like, this team needs to get secondary scoring because they relied so much on their first line. And they bring in cadre, they bring in Don Skoy, they bring in Burkowski. And those guys have produced, but unfortunately, because the injuries now are like primary scorers instead of secondary scores. And so once they get land this call, once they get random back, all of a sudden, those guys can kind of slide into areas where they're better suited for their skill sets. and kind of like all of these chess pieces fall into place beyond just adding two great players.

Well, it's not only that, but it's also just seeing like what else you can get from certain people. Because like, I mean, before the injuries, I mean, J.T. Comfer was having a really strong season in the sense of his production. But like he's gone from center to wing back to center, you know, first line, second line, third line. I mean, it's kind of been hard for him to find a home when the thought was, you know, at the start of the season. Down the middle, you're going to be McKinnon, Cadry, Comfer, Belmar, Belmar. and he was finally going to take that Carl Soderberg role and run with it. So it's going to be interesting what happens there. It's going to be interesting to see what happens with Tyson Joseph, especially considering

he's in the final year of his ELC. But again, it's not even just the secondary scoring at this point. It's just about where they get offensive production from everyone as a whole. Because everybody knows this team can score. They can distribute. They have a bunch of players who can do a lot of different things and do it in different ways. But again, it's just seeing what happens when this team gets healthy. because, I mean, right now, I mean, you look at it.

Let's see, Landisog, Rontinen, Colin Wilson, Nikita Zadouroff, Philip Grubauer. You lost Belmar for a little bit as well. I mean, those are players who play, I mean, okay, let's put it like this. That's literally a five and a goalie. Yeah. Like, that's literally five and a goalie. Yeah. That's just, it's huge.

Yeah. No, and it adds up for sure. I mean, any team would be struggling with losing that much depth. But they're also like, when you look at it. looking ahead in terms of the playoffs and we'll see because it's clearly last year i think if you were thinking about their central version opponents and then they squeeze into the pacific division bracket and wind up playing calgary and san Jose but if you're thinking about like st louis um you know Dallas californ Dallas Nashville i think those are kind of three of their biggest threats in the

central and they're such different teams and they do such different things so well so like being deeper being more well-rounded being able to beat teams and more than one kind of just like we're going to jam a square peg into a round hole with nathan mickick and a full head of steam. Having different ways to beat those teams is going to become even more invaluable when kind of the game really tightens up and you're playing a team like Dallas that just gives up so little defensively. Well, not only just that, but a team like St. Louis that everybody hits

and they have this size. And like we saw a good example of that last night, Thursday in Edmonton, casking comes up with a couple big hits. And it's just like for as big as those McDavid's goals were, which they were big. I mean, to see Zach Cassie and lay that kind of hit on Nathan McKinnon, and then be able to control that fight with Matt Calvert. Like that's what people are going to be looking at with this team.

And so when you just think about Colorado, they do all these things well. But what's going to be fascinating is what happens when they play these teams that like to play a more physical brand? Sure, Zedorov, Calvert, Belmere can do that. But again, it's just going to be interesting to see how that works. Because, I mean, they did it against Calgary, but at the same time, they were able to use their brand really control. So in terms of just like to be a bit more physical. like a St. Louis, that's what's really going to be telling about kind of their growth and development. No, it will. It's funny you bring up Calgary because Calgary absolutely lost their minds

after losing that series where they're like, oh, we need to get tougher. It's like, I mean, I don't think adding Milan Lutridge is the answer because the series I watched was a team just completely controlling the pace and skating laps around you. And it's so interesting that you come away from that series with that as a takeaway, because I felt like as a viewer, I was watching a very different series. Well, it's interesting because, you know, when they play Calgary in a regular season. A lot of those games were decided by one goals. I think the most notable one being the abs being up four one going into, I think it was what the third period or the second period, and they lose like six four. And it was kind of this interesting thing where it's like,

you know how good Calgary is, but it wasn't like the gulf between Calgary and Colorado, even though one is the one seed, the other's the eight was really as large as people might have thought. But again, it's just you never know what's going on inside of an organization. Because I mean, yeah, you look at Calgary and everybody kind of thought maybe the priority should be to get faster, but maybe, you know, they see something different where they think this could be the answer against a team like Colorado. You never know. I feel pretty confident saying adding Milan Lucidtich was not the difference between that. Hey, I try to stay neutral.

Look, I try to stay neutral as best as I can. But to be serious, I mean, it will be interesting to see what certain teams do at the deadline. And with Calgary, that's a team that you look at them and you're like, you see a lot of talent. you see a lot of promise and a lot of ability. It's just a matter of, again, how do they kind of capitalize on it at a time where, I mean, I know you can say this about really any point, but when you look at the West right now, Colorado's a thing, St. Louis is a thing, Dallas is a thing, Nashville's still a thing. I look at where we're at right now, which is not saying the Canucks make the playoffs,

but the way they start. The way they've started, I mean, that's going to be a thing for several years. I mean, I've talked to scouts who were like, that team in Vancouver is legit. And I mean, like, I know every year people kind of joke, is this the year for, the coyotes but when you watch them play they've looked a lot better and so again it's just it's trying to make all this work in the landscape that's really difficult all right man well let's get out of here we'll uh we'll put a pin in the conversation here because i do think this is so far from a finished product and i think uh later on in the season we'll have more to talk about with with the avalanche

i'm looking forward to that plug some plug some self-work and people check out your work where they can find you don't want them to do that so if you're i've loved your work covering this team oh no i i appreciate that i just try to be self-deprecating um so if you want to make a melt your eyeballs and wonder why you even breathe oxygen in the morning. Go check out Theathletic.com. Go please read anybody else at The Athletic. I mean, read The Cat as far as I'm going to say. Are there? Like, there's several, like, writers.

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, no, but seriously. I mean, yeah, just go check out Theathletic.com and, you know, check out our avalanche page and it'll all be right there. And yeah, I guess that's really, I don't know. I'm like the worst at self-promotion. What's your Twitter handle? Oh, God.

It's Ryan underscore S underscore Clark, where you, you will find the worst ideas ever pinned on the face of the earth. All right, well, I enjoy following you. People go check out Ryan Clark. Thanks for taking the time to... Oh, God, thanks for having me. Let's do this again, too.

Yeah, you got it. The Hockey P.D.Ocast of Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovic and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockeypedocast.