The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 325: Emergency Bab-Pod

Episode Date: November 22, 2019

Justin Cuthbert joins the show to discuss the Leafs coaching change, where things went wrong, who's to blame, and how they can salvage the season.Topics include:1:30 - The decision to bring Mike Babcock back this season 4:00 - Sense of urgency to win, and summer of 201713:00 - Philosophical differences between coach and management 17:00 - Adjustments, style of play, and the offense drying up 21:00 - Mike Babcock's lasting legacy 27:30 - Auston Matthews' usage 39:00 - The 2016 Penguins comparison43:00 - Getting the most out of Tyson Barrie49:00 - The landscape in the Atlantic54:30 - Organizational unity See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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And considering the amount of Nick Shore versus Jason Spets of content you provide, I'd say even obsessively at times. Justin, what's going on then? Yes, it is obsessive over time. But that might be over because after 18 straight games, Nick Shore taken out of the lineup by Sheldon Keith. So I'm looking forward to not having to beat this dead horse any further. So let's get right to it then. I mean, you know, the Mike Babcock news comes out on what was it? like Wednesday afternoon or something like that?

Yeah, Wednesday afternoon. Yeah, and you know, whenever news like that comes out, especially regarding the leaves, it really captures the attention of Twitter and everyone's talking about it. And I think people are still talking about it and we're going to release this podcast on Friday afternoon. So hopefully people can consume it sometime during their hopefully lovely,

busy weekends and it'll still be relevant. But, you know, I guess for me, the surprising part for this was we can get into what went, wrong and all the flaws of both Mike Babcock and of what Caldubas did and who should take all the blame. But it feels like both parties knew each other and knew kind of who they were in bed with heading into this season after how last year had ended in that defeat in round one against the Bruins. And they decided to roll it back and kind of bring back the same group once again. And then now we reached kind of a boiling point where it became so unpalatable that they

had to do something to try and salvage the season. But I feel like we can't be surprised that it went this way, maybe that it went this badly this quickly, but I mean, all of this stuff was like the writing walls in the wall heading into this season even before it started. Yeah, I certainly agree with you. I mean, I do believe they sort of got into the, or at least the state of mind that they could sort of tread water here and give it one more chance in the playoffs and that really wouldn't be an issue. Obviously, when we go through the first 23 games and they have nine wins and only six in regulation, they came against six of the worst teams in the league, that it just wasn't viable anymore.

but but I mean it is a significant issue I think we could be looking back at this year come April middle of April and if they are in or not in I think we could be looking at that decision as really what sort of potentially wasted this season and I'm I'm more interested in sort of Brendan Shanahan's role in all this because he was the one that delivered that initial statement that Babcock was let go and I think he was also very involved this is speculative, but very involved in keeping him around for maybe one more season. I think if it was all up to Kyle Dubus, that decision might have been made earlier. So his role in all this is certainly interesting and something to watch. But you're right, this is not an ideal situation for Sheldon

Keith. It obviously worked out pretty well in his first game. But without that training camp, without time to practice, and with pressured games immediately, he's in a really difficult spot here and it certainly could have been avoided. Yeah, it could have. I guess, yeah, the sort of respect that Mike Babcock carries in the hockey world because of his resume that he has and obviously his salary with the Leafs as well, I imagine afforded him a bit more wiggle room than your typical coach. But I think for the Leafs right now, there is a unique sense of urgency, right? There's the fact that they've clearly fallen short of playoff expectations losing in the first round for three street years with this core that we all think should have Stanley Cup aspirations.

There's the fact that they don't have a playoff series win since 2004. So you put those two things together. But I think, I don't know, do you think it's fair to say that especially this Caldubis regime, maybe not Brandon Shanahan so much, has an extra sense of urgency to sort of prove to the hockey world that this way of team building and this sort of new modernized approach of how to put together a core of players can actually work. It feels like there's, and I think it's completely unfair because I think he's done a great job and you look at where this franchise was before he came in versus where it is now. It's it's night and day, but it feels like there's these unfair expectations or this sort of he's always having to prove himself to everyone that it can't work.

And so you kind of throw that on top of all of the Toronto media hype and the fact that they haven't had any playoff success in over a decade now. Yeah, I think you're right to a certain extent. I do think he's feeling that pressure for sure. but I think the pressure really starts now. I mean, I think to this point he's had sort of that built-in excuse where he hasn't had the coach that he believes is going to implement the style and use the parts that he's provided to its best ability.

So I think the attention does turn to him now, but I think the attention was exclusively, for the most part, on Mike Babcock before then. Another interesting, Brandon Shanahan note is that he said that Dubus has not used his single bullet, that he's going to have a lot, the leash is not tightening and that he still has full backing and his general manager. I think that's important.

But that doesn't change the fact that people outside the organization are going to be looking at him now. It's not the coach first. It's not the players first. It's probably going to fall on Kyle Dubus because he had to lay waste one of the greatest coaches in terms of at least accolades in history to get this team to play the way that he wants. So it is a full all in bed on this new sort of progressive approach. I think a lot is made about how different he is, but I think there are some elements that are certainly taken and borrowed and just built upon. I don't think this is him completely swimming in the wrong direction while everybody's going the other way.

But they are gambling on the beliefs and the methods of Kyle Dubus, and I think it really falls on him now. See, it's funny. I wish they had this sense of urgency back in the summer of 2017, and this isn't revisionist history or kind of the benefit of hindsight, because if you go back and listen to my podcast back then, I was hammering the Leafs for sort of half-measure approaches with how they approached that summer, where I get what they were trying to do by bringing in guys like Patty Marlow and Ron Hainsey because of their veteran leadership experience and how they jelled with helping this young core kind of grow and reach their full potential. but at the same time the luxury they were afforded with Marner, Neelander, and Matthews all still on their rookie deals at that time. I thought they really had the sort of financial flexibility

to take massive home run cuts and try to win. But, you know, in hockey, we know that teams generally feel like they have to take some of these lumps and some of these losses in the playoffs before they can get over the hump. And so I think they were biding their time and everyone was excusing it because it's like, oh, you know, these young, fun, upstart leaves still have their moment.

but as we're seeing with Winnipeg, as we've seen with many teams time and time again, you kind of can't take that future success for granted. And so now you look at their sort of cap situation and, you know, they'll always have some sort of wiggle room because of their financial might where they can make certain mistakes disappear and they can just cover for certain mistakes they've made by just paying it out. But at the same time, in terms of tangibly improving this roster, without moving one of those core members and really making some sort of a massive swing and shake up there.

I don't see many tangible ways where they can, you know, just dramatically improve this roster by bringing in players beyond sort of what they did with the Tyson Berry trade where they get the avalanche to cover for some of the salary and make it fit under their books. But they're going to have to really get creative in terms of actually adding impactful pieces, both if they want to do it this season or down the road, acknowledging they do have some money coming over. coming off the books and the cap will be going up. Yeah, 100% as much as the focus is on Dubus right now. I mean, it's going to just, the spotlight is just going to get writer because, as you mentioned, you know, four players taking up pretty much 50% of the cap, $40 million. One defenseman signed beyond this season, Frederick Anderson and Morgan Riley are going to be unrestricted free agents before we really know it here.

And as much tension is on the here and now and how important the season is because this is probably the best collection of talent that this team has had in a very long time. And writing the ship right now is so imperative, but the task is only going to get more difficult. So that makes the pressure even greater on this season, turning things around, getting into the playoffs and seeing what happens because there's no promise that this team will be as powerful or as strong as they were this year. And we've seen to this point that that's just not enough to have a pretty impressively

constructed roster. Yeah. And it makes it even more difficult. they trade their first rounder last year for Jake Muzin. They trade their first rounder this year to make up for that Patty Marlowe mistake. And then all of a sudden, you're wiggle room there in terms of having assets that you can move to bring in players that help you right now also kind of diminishes. But, all right, let's pop the hood here and really kind of do a bit of an autopsy of sorts

of the Mike Babcock era and sort of where things went wrong this year with this team. And I'm going to run through a bit of the numbers here just so people don't think that, you know, were kind of being hyperbolic in terms of this team's struggles because, you know, you look at that slightly sub-500, now a 500 record that they had under Mike Babcock. And it's the thing that worries me is they were really beating up this year on inferior competition. I think they were 6-2 and 2 with a plus 7 goal differential against teams that didn't make the playoffs last year against teams that did make the playoffs last year.

They were 4-8 and 2, only two regulation wins, which came against San Jose when they were at the peak of their struggles. and Columbus, which isn't really a playoff team anymore and has lost all those players. And they have a minus 12 goal differential in that time. Only the Red Wings have led this season less often than the Leafs at 21% of their games. And so all of that stuff, you put it together and it's not just the 500 record. It's the fact that especially against teams that they should be kind of flexing their muscles against and kind of using it as barometers or litmus tests, they've really fallen short this year.

Oh, for sure. I mean, it was an absolutely horrific start and something that, I mean, it warranted a coaching change flat out. I mean, it's sort of hard to, it's hard right now to look back and really identify all the problems because we've seen one and really abbreviated sort of Sheldon Keith impact. But the fact the matter is there was just a massive disconnect between what management was trying to do and what the coaching staff was trying to do. I think Babcock was trying to coach a team that could dominate through puck possessing. just through sheer skill when really that's not the that's really not a possibility in the NHL nowadays. I mean these teams are too sort of talented all across the league but also very equal in a lot of ways. So playing not to win or not to make mistakes was really was really

backwards thinking I think to a certain point and I think it's I think it caught up to them in that aspect but it also caught up to them in terms of the players just growing frustrated. I think there was a really difficult sort of atmosphere around that team as the loss is starting to mount up and it just didn't seem like there was an answer and I think when every when the only thing that you talk about is like oh we got we just got to be more

show more effort and just be a little bit more aggressive I mean you've sort of running out of answers right you don't have anything significant or uh identifiable right you can appoint to to sort of make that impact so I think there was a it was a serious underperformance from at all levels. I think there's there's problems at every layer and we're going to see if they can turn that around. But again, we've talked about how talented this roster is. I mean, it just needs to be manipulated the right way and it just wasn't

being manipulated the right way. Well, seeing the narrative spun from this is always fascinating to me because people can take it so many different ways and we've already seen this idea that, you know, in their first appearance against the coyotes when they win 3-1 under Shelton Keith, the guys are having fun. You know, they're finally playing hard. They finally look like they want to be there and they want to play for each other. And I'm sure there's a certain element of that. I mean, beyond just the fact that they can probably relate to a younger coach and there's some sort of enthusiasm that something is fundamentally changing this season. We constantly see the teams kind of have that new coach balance wherever they bring in a new coach and suddenly the playup takes a

little bit, helps having a new voice. We've also seen people say that, you know, Mike Babcock kind of knew what he was getting into when he was publicly picking fights with Kyle Dubus about the backup goalies and about Jason Spetsa and all these little kind of minor things. But I think what I like to look at more here is kind of more tangible stuff that we can point to. And I do think there was ultimately a philosophical difference between the coach and the management when it came to the management providing him with a series of like a collection of toys and they had a plan for how they want them used. And then Mike Babcock had an entirely different vision for it.

And so ultimately it came down to, well, if you're not going to use the toys that we give you the way we intended to, we're going to find someone else who will be more amenable to that. And I think that's ultimately where we come down to with this beyond all the fluff about him losing the room or, you know, the player is not being kind of excited to play under him or Calduba's taking it personally that he's calling him out in the media. I think if the results were there and if he was doing or enacting the plan that they had in mind for this team, I think all of that stuff could easily be. swept under the rug, but you put it all together and all of a sudden you have some major issues. Yeah, and you really wonder if Babcock was capable of that, though. I mean, I do think this is obviously an immensely talented coach, but I think the stubbornness is ultimately what was his undoing. But again, I just think there's, there was just such a strong philosophical divide that I don't think they ever would have got to that point, even if, you know, Babcock wasn't, you know,

guaranteed $50 million and already had his sort of hockey legend cemented for him and was already headed to the Hall of Fame, I'm not sure he could adjust the specific way that they wanted him to do. Because even in just a short morning skate, we saw so many differences between how they played. And I don't want to make too much of it because, again, it was just one game and that first coaching night bump that we usually see seemed to be apparent. But it was all about puck support. It was puck support in the defensive end, through the breakout in the office, offensive end, and it looked like this team was just playing rather than thinking, which is interesting because if anything, you would be thinking about, oh, what is this new coach

want me to do? But that wasn't the case. And I think that's what happened with Babcock. They just stagnated. They were, they were sort of put in a position where they were thinking about where they had to be on the ice rather than reacting. And it was, it was, it just worked against them throughout the first few months of the season. And as they got out to, the other team got out to leads just routinely against them. They just started playing and they just fell down the same hill every single night. So when they got that early lead, obviously, it was somewhat ironic that it was Tyson Barry who sort of represents the divide between coach and GM maybe better than anyone on this team.

It was finally, it was going in the right direction. Momentum was going in the right direction. They were just free to play. And I think when they're free to play, they're playing exactly as Dubus intended. and they can do that under Sheldon Key. So we're going to see if they can continue to build on this. But the fact of the matter is they look like they were playing rather than thinking, and that's really important for this team, I think.

Yeah, he's definitely seemed like he was much more willing to sort of stubbornly go down with his ship than actually adjust and adapt and sort of win under someone else's plan or vision. And, you know, what's interesting to me is everyone talks about their defense. And, you know, that's been the sort of running theme with his team. can they win having so many assets devoted to their forward group can they win with this skilled outscorer use style and their defense is 24th rank this year so i'm certainly not going to say that they've been great by any means although i think the goaltending can be a little bit better and that would

make the goals against numbers certainly look better but i think the big issue has been the fundamental change offensively this year and that's been the striking thing watching this team where they used to be so kind of quick and dynamic and lethal with their ability to counterattack and make up for any mistakes they made in their own zone but coming right back and scoring and atoning for it and this team i think was a bit of a classic example of sort of playoffs breaking a team fundamentally where it's like okay we can't win this way come the playoffs so let's completely go the other way and try to over correct for it and we saw them try to transition from being more of a rush team to a cycle team and i just think this team isn't suited with the personnel to

pull that off. And so the fact that their offensive numbers dipped and their scoring chances dipped and I don't know how much of this is Dave Haxstall because you don't want to give too much credit to an assistant coach, but we saw this under his flyers teams. So much of their offense trend like kind of gravitated out towards the point where they were just shooting so much with their defensemen from low danger areas. And so the overall shot metrics and the overall shot numbers look perfectly fine. But when you kind of peel back a layer and you look at the quality of it, it really deteriorates. And so that's kind of what stuck out to me with this team where they basically had the same

defensive issues as last year. But offensively, that was the fundamental shift. And I think that's what when you look at it kind of perfectly represents that divide between a management and coach and the philosophical difference that we mentioned. And also why it ultimately went so south this year because basically the one thing they did really, really well, stop being the case this season. Yeah, I think you nailed it right on that. head. I think they were they with that over correcting

statement it seemed like they wanted to play that heavy low game cycle the puck up to the point and just create chances but they're not equipped to do that. I mean this is a fast skilled transition team that was trying to play heavy when that wasn't really you know it's not within their capabilities to be perfectly honest. I do think the biggest difference from an offensive perspective is the fact that the John Tavares second line just has not been what it was. I mean every iteration

Obviously, there's been injuries, so there's been different combinations. But every iteration has been outscored pretty significantly. John Tavares himself has been a non-factor at even strength. The goal scoring after scoring 47 goals is obviously not there. And that's why I was interested to see Ilya McKeiv and Zach Hyman be his wingers under this new regime, at least to start. Obviously, Mitch Martner is going to go back to that spot, we would probably think. But I think that's really been the difference.

They had two dominant lines last year. One of them was actually, you know, one of the best lines from a two-way perspective as well. being John Tavares and Mitch Marner. And this year, they just haven't had that. They've had really good contributions from that first line who's been able to sort of find some success in transition, but also in that down low puck possession style. But really, they've had nothing else.

And a lot has to do with that transition game with Tavares. I think it just hasn't been the same without having consistency with him and Marner. And obviously, Hyman sort of digging pucks out for them, low in the offensive zone. but the injuries have hurt the bottom two lines as well, and they just haven't been a threat at all. So they've been really reduced in some ways, especially when they were dealing with all the injuries,

to a one-line team, and that's really affected their offensive. Yeah, it's tough because on the one hand, losing John Tvers for an extended period of time there, I believe he missed eight games, losing Mitch Marner then. And even while Marner was healthy and in the lineup, he just had the four five-on-five points, zero-five-on-five goals, and he was pretty ineffective without Tavares in the lineup.

And, you know, Morgan Riley and Tyson-Berry have supremely struggled as well. And so you can kind of point to that and the backup goaltending issues and go, okay, well, Mike Babcock only could have done so much with all these struggles. I mean, if your best players aren't going to produce, there's only so much you can do. But then the counterpoint is you look at teams like the Colorado Avalanche who don't have Landiscag and Ranton and all these other guys. You know, you look at the penguins who I can't even list all their injuries this season

because it seems like pretty much everyone, on that roster other than Jake Gensel has missed at least a handful of games and Mike Sullivan still has them as this kind of well-old machine that finds new contributors and finds ways to cover for those gaps. And so I think on the one hand, you feel for Babcock in that sense, but on the other hand, it is the coach's job, especially when you're making as much as he was to make the stuff work and move the pieces around. And that lack of adjustment, which we spoke to, was, I think, apparent. And so before we get to the adjustments for Sheldon Keith and how this team's going to look differently and how they can sort of fix this season. I want to finish off

this conversation about Babcock and I'm going to get a little hot takey here, but I'm curious for your take. Do you think that the way we talk about Mike Babcock, first of all, has changed over the past couple years as a coach and sort of his ability he's doing that? Do you think it should change and do you think that maybe he's been overrated this entire time or do you think he's properly rated or do you think now the hate's gone too far and he's actually underrated? I think this sort of dark chapter in his career just being the last, I guess, maybe 18 months, sort of maybe knocks him down into the correct peg. I mean, you can't really, you can't argue with the Stanley Cup, the Olympic gold medals, all the success he's had. But what we saw at the end

of his tenure in Toronto was him making excuses, not finding solutions. And I think that's ultimately why he finds himself in the place that he's in. And I don't think this was, this isn't something that just happened in Toronto. I think that was a big issue. Detroit at the end as well. He was just, he was unhappy all the time with what was there. And I think that seeped in a little bit into sort of how Toronto handled him. I think he got what he wanted, wanted in his first couple of years where, yeah, they wanted Patrick Marlow. They went out and got him and they spent the extra year, which is proving to be very costly, because he wanted that player. And then when Kyle Dubas took over, that was, that was done. He wasn't not, he was not only

going to provide Babcock with more toys, but he was going to start taking them away. And has, Dubus's influence heightened and expanded, his influence, Babcock's influence diminished. And I think when he wasn't having his, when he wasn't having his way all the time, he was not able to adapt. So I think that's just a reality to his career. But fortunately for him,

he's been in the position more often than not where he hasn't had to worry about that. It was great Detroit Red Wing teams and obviously Team Canada where he had the very best at his disposal all the time. So I think when he came here, he was probably the perfect guy for the job, sort of implementing some structure

and allowing this team to play sort of the right way in that moment, which was, you know, we can make up a little bit for our lack of talent by playing this certain way. But as this team evolved into a skill-first, creative bunch that Kyle Dubus wants to see do more than just sort of the baseline,

he just wasn't the right person for the job. And that's going to be, that's always going to live with him in his coaching career. I'm sure he'll have a chance to sort of atone for that. there's going to be opportunities for him, but that's the reality right now. Yeah, he certainly both him and I'd say Lou Amarillo brought a certain level of kind of respectability and gravitas to this franchise, which they desperately needed because they were such a, to put a lightly clown show before those guys came around. And so it really helped kind of reinvigorate and turn this franchise around.

But I think we're going to ultimately remember this lasting image right now of him getting fired and him not being able to get them over the hump. and I do give him a lot of blame for that because of those lack of adjustments, because I think a coach's strongest attribute should be their willingness to adapt to the players they have and work with what they're given as opposed to trying to jam a square peg into a round hole. And I guess when you're as sort of established and successful as he is with all that winning, with the Stanley Cups, with the Olympic Golds, it's a lot easier to kind of draw a hard line and be like, well, this is who I am, this is what I stand for, this is what you're getting into, And a lot of teams will gravitate towards that and will like that.

And I have no doubt in my mind that he's going to have plenty of suitors lining up, whether it's someone who has a coach right now and will eventually fire them or whether it's Seattle down the line. So I'm sure he's going to be back. And I don't feel bad for him because he's perfectly finally compensated in the meantime and he can enjoy his time off. And I'm sure he will do so. But I think a part of it is also you see how sometimes the media speaks about him.

And I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that, sort of what he does stand for in terms of that kind of working hard no nonsense sort of old school style really resonates with people and i think he treats people really well as well and kind of exudes this air of confidence and strength and so people gravitate towards that i guess like mike commodore is the only person who has famously been uh kind of zinging when other people are zagging but otherwise it seems like everyone does really like mike babcock and so that's why i think uh the narrative was spun this way in terms of like uh people instantly think thinking of his next job or sort of, you know, kind of making excuses for him as opposed to

maybe a less tenure, less successful coach that gets fired. And so no one actually really kind of thinks twice about it. Yeah, there's a certain level of charisma. I mean, it's sort of different in a sense because he's not, you know, he's not necessarily a wordsmith or this guy who's sort of, you know, too, I guess, you know, motivational or whatever in those certain moments in front of the media. But he does capture your attention. And I think that has a lot to do with it. And I think the media, to a certain extent, will miss a lot of what Mike Babcock offered and the fans as well, because he was no nonsense. I mean, he told you how he felt sometimes indirectly, but you knew exactly where he stood on players, on situations, on opposing teams.

He pretty much gave it to you straight up. And he would tell you, he would have an agenda when he came into those press conferences. He would tell you exactly what he wanted to say and what he wanted everybody else to know. within usually his first few answers. So in that sense, yeah, I mean, I think that's part of his sort of, part of his resume, his legacy is, is a lot to do with sort of how he sort of approached the position, treated people. Obviously, there's guys like Commodore and certain probably members of Leifes that

are, I don't feel like he was, you know, he treated people too well. But he was, he was sort of, he was different in that respect for sure. and that's definitely a part of his history for sure. I like how we're speaking about him as if he's dead. It's like, oh, yeah, remembering Mike Babcock. He's been gone for 48 hours. No, okay, let's spin this forward. Enough about Babcock, enough about what went wrong.

Let's kind of try to figure out how Sheldon Keith and the Leaves can fix this, what they can do. And I think the first thing that sticks out to me, and I guess it was a big battleground and kind of a line in the sand or a big point of contention for Leaves fans over the past, however money months under Mike Babcock was the usage of the top players and particularly how heavily they rode Austin Matthews and you look at some of the um usage for guys like Nathan McKinnon especially now with the injuries they have had you look at Carter McDavid and

Leandro Cytle and you look at some of these teams that uh aren't as deep and all of a sudden need to rely on their top guys to play 20 21 22 23 sometimes even 24 minutes in a game if they need to win it and the Leafs have really been gun shy and and resistant to do that and fully unleash Matthews, it feels like they're much more comfortable having them in that sort of 19 minutes per game range. And, you know, with as much as this team invests in their sports, science research,

and how heavily they look into optimizing player performance and all that, I'm sure that maybe even management, maybe it's a management-driven thing where they don't want to play Matthews too much. Maybe they see something in his playing styler's biometrics that makes them concerned about fully unleashed you gum and thinking that he can handle that type of workload. But it was interesting to me seeing in game one under Sheldon Keith,

where he played 1742 at 515, I believe, which was the 10th most he's played in his career, and he's played whatever, 235 games just under Mike Babcock. Now, they didn't have any power plays in that game, so it was much easier to just play him for the full brunt of the 515 minutes. But I do, I'm very curious, and I think that can go a long way for this new coaching staff, if they do just fully unleash Matthews and play him a lot,

think just in terms of winning over fans and making them feel like the team's trending in the right direction. Like it's such a simple thing, but I feel like it would go a long way, at least in terms of the perception. Yeah, it's interesting not to go right back to Babcock, but that seemed like the easy adjustment for him, right? All you had to do is play your top players a little bit more, and he probably would have appeased a lot of people, but he was very reluctant to do that. Guys like Nick Shore taking as much ice as John Tamar's is simply, it's just silly. And this was the easiest way for Keith to sort of settle in, which just ride the big guys, right?

And you're right, situational factors sort of led to Matthews logging so many even straight minutes because the Maple Leafs didn't see a powerplay. I don't think until late in that game. But that's what you want to see. I mean, you're a top heavy roster in terms of construction. So there should be more onus on those big guys to sort of carry the load, right? And again, it's going to, I think the one thing with Keith, at least that we what we saw was a fluidity to it. I think the situation is going to determine, determine what he was doing. And that was a tight game last night for a little while.

And he had every reason to sort of ride Matthews and make sure that they got the result needed. And sort of near the end, when it was a little bit more obvious how the game was going to go. I think they backed off that a little bit. But again, it's the interchangeable parts is what I'm expecting from Keith. And that is, yeah, there's going to be a lot more fluidity to the game. And there's going to be offensive zone possession. There's going to be times where the blender just naturally happens because there's going to be an opportunity to make changes on the fly

and keep offensive shifts going through a line change. So I think we're going to see a lot of different combinations, but I think it's going to center around those big guys who are going to be unleashed a little bit more. And I don't know an extra minute or two a game, that's pretty significant, right? But I think the more freedom, and that's what they talked about, the freedom is going to come with playing the way they want.

to play. I think a lot of it is, you know, Matthew's not having to, you know, check back immediately and to just go chase and hunt down the puck and go get it. And I think that's going to maybe increase the shift length a little bit, but also probably the amount of shifts as well is going to be something that Sheldon Keith looks for. So I just think that more positive energy is going to be spent under this new regime in both a logging a lot of more ice time, but doing it in a way that's more productive. And I think that's definitely what fans have been clamoring for, and I think that's what they're going to get.

Yeah, I mean, and if there has been one bright spot on this team this year, it has been sort of, you know, Austin Matthews clearly, but also in his goal scoring, but Willie Nealander, you know, with a full sort of regular preseason training camp, not being snake-bitten with the percentages anymore. And I think he's looked really dangerous on the puck and kind of been a puck-hound in the offensive zone. And that line with Yonson and Matthews, you know,

have 58.6 shot share. They're outscoring teams, 1611. They have 65% high dangerous chances. So they've been the one saving grace for this team. And so that's why it's like, it makes it even more imperative, I think, to give them as much as they can handle. And then if the results and the efficiency deteriorates, then you can dial it back a little bit.

But it just feels like they haven't really even tried to push those outer boundaries. And if they were, you know, when the Bruins do it, for example, you see games where Marshan and Pashternag and Bergeron play like 16 minutes, right? And they're routing a team 5-1 and they don't feel the need to really kind of push the pedal to the medal because they know that at the end of the season they're going to be a contender, they're going to be competing for a Stanley Cup. They have enough around them to sort of with the style and system they play to make up for those minutes and they don't need to ride those guys full bore.

The Leafs haven't had any of that real success, right? Like they haven't gotten out of the first round. They haven't won the Atlantic Division. and they haven't done any of that stuff. So it's weird to me that they've gone about it as if they're this kind of perennial contender that has all these accolades and can afford to do this with these veteran players.

But in reality, it's a bunch of young guys who haven't necessarily proven anything who haven't gotten to those later stages of the season. And so I'd like to see them really kind of test those outer boundaries and see how far those guys can take them. Yeah, and you definitely want to see when the playoffs come around. I mean, a lot of the frustration, when they were winning games in the regular season

and, you know, locked in that third seed, with a couple months to play, I don't think it mattered that much. Right. But when you saw it not change in the playoffs and you see Patrick Marlow out there when they need a goal to tie it up in game seven or whatever game that was, like that those are when the issues pop up when there's that inflexibility in the moments that are so critical, I get it. I get sort of, you know, load managing to a certain extent during the regular season and not riding them too hard because, yes, there are more important games to play.

There were important games to play in November here for Mike Backcock, and it didn't change, but it didn't change when it mattered most when that was with the playoffs. There was a small uptick maybe, but the certain things just still applied for him, whether it's, you know, bringing the fourth line out after a goal to just not build the momentum, but just try and hold the opposition off for one more shift. I mean, I think those are the big differences. There's an aggressiveness. And I think that goes back to the backup goaltender situation as well.

If you're a really great team, go get those wins. I mean, try to align yourself so that you can get four points, not get the two, and then hope for the best on the second half of the back-to-back. I think it's a philosophical thing where it's you think you're that team, they'll be that team. And I think that's the instruction so far. Yeah, it was weird that the way that they were handled the goalies over these years was the one area that Babcock actually did kind of show that aggression and that sense of urgency in terms of how much they played Frederick Anderson and I think to a false. but I guess the mismatch for me was weird between. We talked about the sense of urgency for management now and how they really need to finally get over the hump

and have something to show for this core, and then you'd look at the actual on-ice utilization, and it would be like, oh, well, they're falling completely short in that area. I remember that game 7 against the Bruins last year and not to completely open up those wounds again, but I remember being in the office in Toronto watching with you guys and just being stunned watching the fourth line come out for regular shifts and on the power play, the first unit, get pulled after a minute so the second unit can come on.

And they were just treating it like it was another game in November when their season was on the line and they were trailing. And that was just such a stunning development for me. But maybe we shouldn't have been stunned based on the way they had approached the regular season. And clearly that's what Babcock wanted to do with the team. And that's another adjustment here for me for Keefe and how they can really get more out of Matthews. you look at it the first unit for the Leafs by my measures uses their first, so the Leafs use their first unit the 23rd most often in the league. And around 54% of all power play opportunities, I believe last time I checked.

And I think that is clearly not nearly enough when you look at the talent discrepancy between who's playing on the first unit and who's playing on the second unit and considering how little energy you really relatively are using on the power play. I do think you see with Ovechkin, he's clearly a special animal in terms of his ability to just stand at the left circle and not really expend any energy. But I think there's a happy medium there where you could probably get away with playing your top unit a minute and a half out of the two minutes as opposed to this like clean 50-50 split, which the leaves have seemed to be doing.

So I think 5-15 usage aside, I think you could draw a lot more out of Matthews and the top players by simply giving them all of those high leverage, high-danger, scoring opportunities when they have a man up and their power play has shown in the past. to be as lethal as it is. Yeah, I think in a perfect world, Austin Matthews sort of even strength, ice time sort of stays the same, but you get him out there in those special situations

and let him ride the full two minutes. I see no reason why he can't play the majority of most power plays. And it's interesting because I think the one thing that was maybe the best made plans were sort of spoiled a little bit with having two number one quarterbacks in terms of defensemen on the power play and they're experimenting obviously now with Morgan Riley and Tyson Barry playing together

but it really limited Tyson Barry to what he was able to do and I think it also limits William Nealander who was maybe not anymore but was the guy who was sort of relegated to that second unit so you have these five guys that are unbelievably talented and should be lighting it up but are underperforming and then you kind of have two players that should be that are good enough for a first power play

but are limited to scraps and guys that are just not going to be able to help them or facilitate them in that regard. So I think the power play was a big issue under the Babcock regime because of that. But what I'd like to see now is maybe have Matthews and maybe Riley or Barry sort of play the entire thing and then maybe switch out the other three guys

where you're just loading up with the guys who are going to give you the best chance to score and playing them for the full two minutes and then bringing out different pieces instead of that full line shift after the first time it's cleared down the ice after 45 seconds the next unit's coming on and more often than not with all the injuries it's been guys like Alex Kerfoot and Nick Patan and Jason Spessa and you just can't rely on those guys to regularly put up offense and it's it just seems silly when

you're sending a guy like Austin Matthews to the bench in favor of them well you know I've seen the 2019 Blues example is going to be the one that always gets cited now after a team, a talented team with high expectations, makes an end-season coaching change because of how their year went last year clearly and then being the sort of prime example of a team that was literally last in the league, changing their coach and winding up winning the Stanley Cup. But I think that was much more, I mean, the team certainly wound up playing better and their underlying numbers skyrocketed under Craig Barubei, but for me, that was much more like, all right, we're just going to find a new goalie and this goalie is going to get hot and carry

us. I think the much more apt example here is the 2016 Penguins where it was a talented skill team that was really being bogged down by sort of a more old school traditional coach and Mike Johnson where he wanted them to play this type of hockey that they just weren't suited for with their personnel and they bring in Mike Sullivan from their HL affiliate and he just fully empowers and unleashes these guys to play the type of hockey they've played over the past handful of years and they went to Stanley Cups and they have all the success and you watch it and you're like oh wow I can't believe they weren't playing this way the entire time and I think

for Lee's fans that would be what I would be clinging on to for hope where we already saw it in game one a little bit I think with Tyson Barry you know on the one hand um the players do need to execute better and play better and there's no excuses for that on the other hand it's a coach's job to put the players into position to succeed and I think we heard on the broadcast time and time again in that first game on the show and Keith where it was like the defensemen are going to be emboldened or empowered to be much more aggressive to jump up and the play to really get involved.

And that's when Tyson Barry's at his best. I think, you know, the night and day example of him is the last game under Babcock. He has that one turnover that leads to the goal, I believe, by Thomas Nosek, where he strips him and it's a breakaway and it's a backbreaker for the Leafs. And he looked in that moment kind of carrying the puck out of the defensive zone. Like, he wanted to be that Tyson Barry of the past where he wants to aggressively do something and jump up in the play. But then in the back of the head, he's like, he can hear Mike Babcock yelling at him to kind

to make a safe play off the boards or not really try to do anything. And so he gets kind of caught in this no man's land and you can't play hockey that way. And then against Arizona, we see him aggressively jump up in the offensive zone, take the puck from the blue line all the way in. And he gets a nice goal there. And it does feel like there was, it's just one game, but it does feel like that really sort of embodied this difference or this philosophical difference of like, you're skilled, you can skate, you have puck skills.

so utilize those and be aggressive and we can live with the mistakes when they happen. What we can't live with is you playing a type of game that you just aren't suited for with your skill set. Yeah, I agree. I think what really suffered with under Babcock was their play in neutral ice. I mean, getting it from the defensive zone to the offensive zone, I think it was a big issue. And a lot of times, I think that Tyson-Berry play was a big, was an easy example where you just had defensemen sort of with possession of the puck skating up and not really having any options. And I think that was maybe, I mean, it was a little bit different. I think he wanted to make, you know, wanted to make that play, that individual play,

but maybe second-guessed it or whatever, and it obviously backfired on him. But what we saw under Keith was a far different approach to breaking the puck out, which was there's not players standing around waiting for passes. The forwards are coming back and going to get it and supporting that defenseman. And I think with that, if there is a mistake made, then they're more likely to be able to, cover for it because there's a lot more movement and a lot of more guys involved. With Barry, I think there was a lot of just standing, waiting for the pass, especially on the power play zone entries, just horrific.

We're seeing the same thing over and over again with the drop pass, a lot of standing around. It's on one guy to make the move that gets them into the zone. And as talented as they are, maybe they didn't have the perfect guy to do that. I mean, I look like Matt Barzal who just, you know, is such an expert in that regard. I don't think they had a guy who could do it all himself. So yeah, I think one of the biggest things that Keith can do is change the way they get from point A to point B. And Tyson Barry is probably going to be one of the guys who benefits most from that.

Yeah, I mean, if they're going to kind of remove some of those system constraints or really give the green light to players to be aggressive and active when they see opportunities, Barry is going to be the big beneficiary. And, you know, heading into this season with the success he had, piling up the points and sort of in a more sheltered role, thriving off. offensively for the avalanche over the years. It's been really jarring to watch him this year where they tried to turn him paired with Jake Muzin into this like more sort of traditional shutdown matchup defensemen. And you saw his offensive zone starts came all the way down. You saw him look completely kind of clueless and lost out there at times.

And I'm very curious to see how he looks under Sheldon Keefe. I'm very curious what to see what they do with him because in game one, we already see them try many different looks. We saw him paired with Muslim, but we also saw him paired with Dermit. We saw him playing with Morgan Riley at times. We saw him on the top power play unit. And so if they're going to use him the way that he should be utilized or he was utilized in the past, I think there's certainly an ability to salvage him here.

And the logic was pretty clear when they went out and acquired him. One was to replace what they were missing with Jake Gardner walking in free agency. But it was like, this guy excels at moving the puck at stretch passes, at being aggressive. kind of going north-south and the Leafs were one of the heaviest teams reliant upon those stretch passes on that kind of quick run and gun off the rush attack. And so for them to completely pivot and become this cycle team that really grinds games out seemed so counterintuitive with acquiring Bury. And so he does have a new lease on life here.

And I wonder if you can salvage his stock because, you know, you looked at the upcoming free agent class and he certainly, based on his production last year, it looked like he was going to get paid. wonder how many millions of dollars he's cost himself so far this season. Now, thankfully, there's whatever 55, 60 games left and potentially a playoff run. And so if he can get back to being that type of guy that he was, I think people will be willing to forgive these 20 games and chalk it up to being a Babcock thing and a bad stylistic fit because it doesn't look like his skills like, you know, deteriorated or he's washed up or declined.

It just looks like it was a horrible sort of pairing between the two. So I'm really curious, just like as a thought exercise, how much money he cost himself and how much of it he can recapture here over these next however many months. Yeah, I think he's going to have a chance to recoup some of that value, though, because it looks like the plan is to weaponize him. You mentioned that he moved up and down sort of the defensive pairing, starting with Morgan Riley, which almost seemed like a demonstration for Mike Babcock, just sort of putting it out there that, yes, he can do other things. But yeah, moving around with Dermit, moving around with Jake Muzon. Again, I think a lot of what he wants to see is that these players aren't going to be married to their specific pairings. We want Travis Dermott to be able to play with Morgan Riley and Morgan Riley to be able to play with Jake Muz. And all the pieces just work because we're doing things a certain way.

But it's interesting. I think one of the most tweets that I put out there that got the most traction was Mike Babcock sort of suggesting that Tyson Berry had to reinvent his game. And I think that's the most obvious sort of divide between what was happening and what needed to happen. This is a guy who is a specialist. He is an offensive player who can, you know, as you mentioned, put stretch passes right on the tape, but also finish in the offensive zone as much as he's a quarterback. We saw early in training camp that this is one of the most dangerous shooters just in practice. Like he's got a really nice release and we obviously saw that in Arizona.

So I think the plan is to unleash him. I think that was the plan all along, but it wasn't. it wasn't done the way that Kyle Dubus anticipated. And now I think he's going to be one of those guys that looked at to just make an impact when you're on the ice, not try to be something that he wasn't. Well, I'm excited. I think he's the perfect representation of sort of this new lease on life or new optimism for this team because I remember sitting in that fine Yahoo studio that you're sitting in right now

recording this podcast and you and I before the season heavily debating whether the lightning or the Leaf should be the first team and the watchability rank. And I guess neither team should have even been under consideration based on how it's looked so far. But, you know, I think the Leafs have been pretty clearly the biggest disappointment in terms of an aesthetic perspective where they just haven't resembled a team that we thought they were going at all regardless of the results. And so if they are going to open it up, if they are going to start looking more like that team that they look like over the past couple seasons, that would go a long way towards

at least like making them fun to watch because that's been the really kind of biggest point of frustration for me. It's like, they used to be appointment viewing and the past however many weeks have just been such a slog watching this team. And I guess based on the first game, it's just one game, but there is a reason for hope that they're going to start resembling more of that team, especially as they get healthy and Mitch Marner gets back in the lineup. Certainly. There's obviously a lot of work to do in terms of implementing the system, getting bodies back and finding the right formula. But you can tell that even before they hit the ice that there was an eagerness to play this to play this way to play for keef obviously there is a lot of

familiarity coach 14 of the guys that are on the team right now so they they kind of know what to expect a lot of it's made obviously about the adjustment here but a lot of guys knew what to expect and I think that was pretty apparent but um that's that's the one thing like they might not they still have a lot long way to go to even make the playoffs um but they can be that team that's very entertaining because that's just how it's just how it's going to be now it looks like they might you know there's going to be some problems that happen with activating the defense all the time and I think we saw a little bit of it even though it really didn't hurt them in any way but so I think that entertainment value even if you know the wins don't are you know don't come immediately and maybe there's not enough for

them to even get to the point where they were last year but I think they should be a lot more entertaining to watch for sure well especially with the developments in the Atlantic where you know we can put Boston aside for now, and I think thankfully for the Leafs fans, I mean, I guess they're at the point now where you can't take the playoffs as a foregone conclusion because of how much they've struggled and they're still on the outside looking in, although there's a lot of season left, but I think at this point they have to kind of focus on themselves and they can't project ahead to the playoffs, but it seems pretty clear that the Bruins are going to win the Atlantic and at least they won't have to worry about them in round one.

And so if that's the case, I mean, Tampa Bay is still scary because of the names, but now they have their own injuries and they've certainly underwhelmed themselves. And then beyond that, it's a lot of like, you know, Florida has the similar issues where they have a ton of talent, great power play, can score a lot. But even with the addition of Bobrovsky, they still have defensive woes. And I feel like you feel confident beating them in a 5-4 game. You know, the Sabres have completely fallen off the map, the Red Wings and the Senators always aren't concerned. And so the most interesting team for me is actually Montreal, where they've like pretty clearly been the second best team in Atlantic based on their play. And they are such a fascinating matchup for the Leafs as well.

well beyond all of the sort of vitriol and hatred between the fan bases it's like it seems like those two teams always play these fun back and forth games and Montreal wants to certainly get into a a five-on-five track meet and has a ton of speed and skill as well so just kind of looking ahead it really has opened up beyond the number one seat in boston and so i think that should provide some hope as well where if Tampa bay was living up to their full potential and then florida had you know solved all their their issues with sergey bobrowski you'd be like oh well now now the Leafs are really in trouble and they're really fighting for a wildcard. But we're still so early in the season that I think that's why the team did feel imperative,

bringing you back to the Babcock firing and kind of pulling full circle on this. There is that opening and they didn't want to waste any more time because the season can quickly get away from you. But for the time being, despite how rough the first 22, 23 games have been, there's still so much room left for them to realize that potential and get right back into this thing. Yeah, you're right. I think one of the keys is that expectations do have to change a little bit. I think how are we going to avoid Boston? I think that conversation was, well, we got to win the division title, right? And obviously, I don't think that's really realistic anymore. I mean, it's still going to be a battle to make the playoffs. I mean, you mentioned Florida, Montreal, Tampa Bay. We've probably seen the best out of one of those teams.

And still, the Maple Leafs will be chasing the other two, right? So, yeah, I mean, going back to Montreal, Tampa Bay, we've probably seen the best out of one of those teams. And still, I mean, going back to Montreal, I mean, we wanted something to change, obviously, with Toronto and Boston meeting each other. Just from a fan perspective, obviously, it's sort of the same old thing. Covering the same old storylines is a little bit stale. But just seeing something new, Montreal seems like it would be just awesome to see. Because every time those teams meet, even with Babcock, trying to dumb things down from a sort of overall perspective with the Maple Leafs, it's always fun when those teams meet. just two teams that right now should be playing sort of the same way with that with that pressure,

that tempo and just trying to get the best at everything that they have on the ice. So I'm obviously as someone covering the Leafs, you sort of want to see a chapter, a playoff chapter. That's pretty important, obviously, to see them get to that point. But to see a new story, a new chapter written will be really exciting. And there's nothing better than Montreal. But again, that is not that is not guaranteed right now. now and I guess beggars can't be choosers because the leaps are going to have to play really, really solid to get themselves in that position.

And who knows, they might end up in the wild card and they could be looking up at Boston. That is actually very true. I didn't even think of that. Yeah, man, well, I think we kind of covered all the bases here. Is there anything else we discussed? We kind of, we didn't really, I mean, we started off. We obviously talked about back-clock lock. We talked about the adjustments and what the new coaching staff can do.

I think we talked about Dubus a little bit at the start in terms of, you know, I think when a situation goes this, horribly and you fail to live up to expectations to the degree that they have, uh, no one is blameless. And I think the players certainly need to play better. I think some of the decision making maybe do bus and whether it was, uh,

Shanahan motivated, but the decision to bring Babcock back in the first place to start the season, uh, we can kind of revisit that. But I don't know. Like is there, is there anything else that we haven't discussed in terms of X factors or people who should take some of the blame or,

or sort of reasons for optimism or, or, or what have you here? I think we touched a lot on the reasons for optimism. It's tough though because I think we were given a lot last night in terms of actual things to break down and changes that were made because I wasn't expecting really much to be different, but it was clearly different.

So obviously doing a deeper evaluation on Sheldon Keith and what he's going to be able to do is something that is going to have to happen down the line a little bit. But the early returns, obviously, it's immensely positive and there's a huge test coming up against a team that that sort of plays that style in Colorado on the weekend. But I think this, it was, it really was a new era, something drastic changing with the end of Mike Babcock

and now this, where it's full Kyle Dubus and Sheldon Keith and exactly what he wanted from the very beginning. I think from a very long time, this is what, this is what he's wanted. That's why he turned down interest from Colorado. It's why they paid Sheldon Keith a ton of money to stay in the organization. because this was the end point we were always going to get to. I think we got there earlier than we anticipated. But this Dubis-Keefe combination was,

it's been written in the stars for a while in Toronto, and now we're going to finally see it unfold. Yeah, I mean, Dubus, when, boy, he went on radio or whatever, or he was talking to media, he said he's willing to bet his career on this, and, you know, he finally has his coach. You know, I think you and I would both agree that the Leafs are certainly an imperfect team, but this idea that the way they're built or that you can't win with skill in today's game is so silly when you look at some of the teams that have had success from the Blackhawks,

to the Penguins, to the Lightning. I mean, there's many different ways to win in NHL, but this idea that, oh, you score too many goals, so you're fatally flawed come the postseason is such a silly one. And so they have this vision in mind. They finally have everyone seemingly pulling in the right direction where I think the best organizations have a vision from the top down and everyone sticks to it and everyone's enacting it. And so I think now with Sheldon Keith in place, he's clearly based on his history with Dubes and the fact that he's handpicked him, going to be willing to follow through with that and

use the personnel the way that was intended. And so I think that's encouraging. And I think also the connection with the players. I mean, you don't want to talk. We're not in the room, so you don't want to buy in too much this idea that the team was checked out or the team wasn't, you know, fully embracing. Babcock or what have you, but I mean, NHL's taught us that eventually a coach's message rings hollow. I mean, you look at the shelf life of coaches, the fact that I think there's only like seven

or eight guys who have been with their team since before 2016. I mean, usually goes like three, four year windows and all of a sudden the carousel spins. And so, you know, a younger coach that's already has some history with some of these guys in the lower levels, I think it's going to go a long way. And so, I don't know, just because, you know, you cover the Leafs and it's a Canadian team and that Eastern bias, like I think people are going to be like, oh, these two guys are way too optimistic about this team that is still 500 and still has a lot of awards. But I think the pieces are in place, especially relatively speaking, considering how bad they've

been early on, to at least get back to what that team that we had preseason expectations for and the team that we saw over the past couple regular seasons. And at this point, even though that doesn't come with, you know, playoff success, that would be a massive win. and I think a massive step into the right direction for the team. Yeah, the optimism is there for the same reason that it was before. And that was, yes, this is a supremely talented team, but it was sort of being undone by a certain way of looking at the game.

And now there's what makes it even more intriguing, and it might not just be optimism, but more intrigue in what's going to happen is that they finally have everything flowing in the right direction. We think with this coach, who, again, it's been proven over years that he sees the game the way Dubus wants to seize it as well. So the optimism is what's to come. It's this challenge that an underperforming but immensely talented team has

under a new coach who we don't know that much about and we don't know how he's going to handle the situation of being in Toronto. But it was obviously a dream start for him. But I think it's more of the, this is very interesting. And I can't wait personally to see what happens to this team down the stretch. And obviously I'm pretty fortunate to be there for most of it. All right, man. Well, I think we had it all here for now.

We can revisit this and re-litigate it later down the road, which I'm sure we will. Plug some stuff. What are you working on? How are you keeping busy? Where can people check out your work? Yeah, taking a while it wasn't a break this week because obviously Mike Babcock happened. But, yeah, a little road trip this week. But I've got coverage after every game.

We try to do some fun video content. And Yahoo Sports try to do things a little bit differently, explore the digital space. We're going to be launching some more fun things upcoming. this, I guess, maybe even before the new year. But yeah, just writing about beliefs and no longer writing about Mike Babka. Well, I'm glad we did this. It was a blast. I'm looking forward to seeing what's to come.

And I'm looking forward to catching up with you down the road. I'll be back in Toronto, I think, probably. Trade deadline for sure. But I'm sure I'll see you maybe at the All-Star Break or something like that. And hopefully we'll get to do some more podcast and more videos together because it's always a blast. Absolutely. The full Keefe breakdown. Appreciate it, man.

I'm looking for ever. Talk to you, man. The Hockey P.DOCAST with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockeypediocast.