The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 328: But What About Blueger

Episode Date: December 12, 2019

Thomas Drance joins the show to sort through the awards ballot at the 30 game mark of the season. Topics include:3:00 Quinn Hughes vs. Cale Makar for the Calder11:30 Young defensemen taking over the game18:00 Which coach has had the biggest impact?31:00 Can anyone catch John Carlson for the Norris?42:00 How our definition of good defense is changing47:45 Sean Couturier locking down teams and the Selke54:00 System vs. Individual in the Vezina race1:00:00 Can Pastrnak take the Rocket from Ovechkin?1:06:00 The Most Outstandingly Valuable PlayerSee acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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My name is Dimitri Philopovich. And joining is my good buddy Thomas Dr. Yeah, it's Thomas. What's gone, man. Hey, Dimitri, how are you? Nice to be on again and, and nice to be here to discuss awards. Yeah, that's what we're going to do today. You know what? I think the first time I had you on the show was like maybe three or four years ago before you work with the Panthers. Oh, yeah. Because I didn't, I was going to helping you, like, fill out your ballet. It was right before awards. I remember we were, like, kind of discussing some of the names and tossing it out. It's funny because I remember the

time we were like, man, like, we were kind of on an island with our Sean Cotcherier for Selki. It was during the heyday of like Bergeron, Copa Tar and Tears. And it was like, no one could break into that show. remember it and now, you know, spoiler alert, we're going to have our day, our vindication. Well, you know, it's funny to be, you know, speaking about those times before I worked for the Panthers because I was the only guy, for example, the first year that I had a vote, which was after the 2014-15 season, and I had Brian Campbell fourth on my Norris ballot. Right. Because his defensive impact was through the roof. Right. And I was the only person in

the PHWA who gave a vote to Brian Campbell of any kind. And I remember looking, you know, this was before the PHWA unveiled who had made the votes. And I remember looking through it. And there was like a bunch of Panthers fans excited. They were like, someone voted for Brian Campbell. Like, yay. Like, good for them. They are paying attention. And, and I was, and I was like, oh, that's the exact amount of points that you get for a fourth round, a fourth place vote. I'm the only guy who voted for Brian. I remember a couple years ago during the awards when they released them. I noticed like Josh Manson had like a fourth place vote or something for the Norris. And I was like, who the hell did this? And then all of a sudden I get a DM from our buddy Charlie O'Connor. He's like, hey, man, leave John

Metson. I think we got our answer. But no, it's always, it's always fun to look through it. And obviously there's a lot of like team based homer nods where it's like, hmm, this like broadcaster for this one team gave their hometown guy a third place bid. Like, where did that come from? But so today we're going to do awards talk. I don't want people to get too bogged down, bogged down with like, we have a guy second, we have a guy fourth or whatever.

Like we're going to go through all the awards. I'm using it much more as like a sort of launching pad for us to just discuss some of the best players in the game, the seasons they're having, go through it, talk about different positions. So I'm viewing it from that lens. We'll get to like our like one, two, three, whatever.

But I don't want people to be too worried about that. It's more so about the players. Sounds good. I'm ready to go. Let's go with a Calder. Let's do it. You have some... I just wrote it. You have some takes about it. I have some Calder takes. So I think it's pretty clear like one two.

It's like one A, one B between McCar and Hughes right now. But is it? Because I think the consensus is McCar by a lot. And I think that consensus is wrong, which is why I wrote a column about it. Now, why do you think that is? Is it because of last year's playoff showing and then some of the highlight real like goals and moves we've seen from us over? because Hughes certainly has that same amount of like when you watch him that wow factor. Yeah.

But it does feel like maybe like I think it's subtle though. Much more subtle. Yeah. I think with Hughes it's things that don't always necessarily result in goals. It's like, oh, he's, Quinn Hughes. Quinn Hughes, right, of course. When we're talking about the call there. The right, Quinn Hughes.

The thing with Hughes is a lot of the plays are like, oh, wow, I can't believe he escaped that guy and key to breakout. You know, unfortunately it just resulted in a one and done shift or wow, the way that he walks the line. I've never seen anything like that, but, you know, they don't always sort of lead to these highlight real goals. Whereas with McCar, you know, that wrist shot is such a ridiculous weapon. And when he scores, those highlights get shared widely. And, you know, he seems to be like our hockey's favorite player. You know, I think he's got a lot of that buzz from his days in college. And then obviously the fact that he garnered some national attention during the playoffs last year with

how well he played. And then, you know, I think his counting stats, were absolutely through the roof, especially earlier in the season. Hughes is kind of caught up a bit, but Hughes didn't start the season on PP1 in Vancouver. And so there was a while there where the gap in their production was perhaps a little bit wider than it will be by season's end, especially because, you know, the point of the column that I wrote anyway was McCar's been on a you know, pretty significant shooting percentage bender, right? He's scoring on a ludicrous number of the shots that he takes. It was like 17%. at even strength before he got hurt.

And I mean, that's better than Stephen Stamco's shoots over the course of a full season. And, you know, you can't convert any more efficiently than Stephen Stamco's, especially if you're a defenseman. And, you know, power play too, right? Like tons of favorable bounces. And I just figured that it would get closer than that, especially because Hughes's five-on-five impact and especially his defensive impact to come back to Brian Campbell, right? Is Brian Campbell like?

Which is pretty insane for a 20-year-old defenseman. Yeah. Okay, well, let's get into some of those numbers then. So, McCar is shooting 13.8 individual. Yeah, overall. He's got a 12.9 on ice shooting percentage. And then 922. 105.3 PDO for the PDO cast.

Is that right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So clearly, I think if anyone's making an argument that he is a true talent, 13.8% shooter personally, like the defensemen do not do that, especially at a volume. What I will say about him is it does seem like he's a bit more, similar to Quinn Hughes, actually, I'd say, like, a bit more selective in his shots. Like, he's not, like, Brent Burnsing it, where he's just taking shots from the point,

low percentage ones and just trying to get it on net. Like, it does seem like he's much more, like, selective in terms of working the angles and holding on to the puck an extra second. So if he winds up coming back down to, like, I think he'll be an above average. Oh, he's definitely a special marksman from the back end. So there's a regression coming there. I think the most, where he's going to regress the most is probably on that plus minus he has, I think he's like plus 10 or whatever.

I know people are going to cite that. I think the same percentage, especially with the way the avalanche play, I like Grubao and Francius a lot, but they're like so much off the rush. And that's why I think both McCar, McKinnon, and the abs in general are going to have this shooting percentage that is going to be above what people expect all year. And it's going to throw people off a bit because they're going to keep expecting regression. But that leads to obviously more coming back the other way. So I think there's like a middle ground there where he and,

the rest of the Aves players are probably going to enjoy some favorable shooting percentages all year, but clearly this is not going to continue. Yeah. And, you know, I think McCar's abilities offensively are through the roof. I think at this point in his career, he's more developed than Hughes is in that sort of part of the rink. I think he's got an extra year on him too, right? He's got an extra year on him. And he's also, but he's less developed, I think, defensively.

I mean, obviously we've seen what McCar can do with his feet on the breakouts. And he's a very bright player. by no means is he not a good, like he's a really advanced defensive player too for his age. But I think Hughes is already like a through the roof high end defensive piece in terms of the impact that he has defensively. And obviously that's not his in zone play, but it is sort of the way that teams just don't generate at nearly as much against the Canucks when Hughes is on the ice as they do in all other situations. Yeah. So he has got that 5-1-5 impact. He also, as soon as he went on the top power play, you basically had a great.

like a league best unit and what i like is um you know it's been just a couple games but with edler out it feels like you know greens relying upon him a bit more he he has 24 24 24 24 minutes and 25 22 in three of the four games edlers missed so i love to see that like i want to see i understand why you kind of want to baby steps and you don't want to just like expose a 20 year old defenseman to 25 minutes a night but well think about too how the connects have performed with edler out the lineup the last two years right like the the club's midseason swoons the 11 in a row that they lose happen annually when Edler is injured, right?

Hughes sort of has provided some insurance against that and I think that by the second part of this season you're going to see him genuinely playing more than Edler five on five even when they're both in the lineup. Obviously he's played over 20 minutes just at five on five the last two games. Like the Canucks haven't been drawing a ton of penalties recently but he's still playing huge minutes and, you know,

I think McCarr with Graves on that Ave second pair I don't suspect that, you know, unless there's sort of further injuries once Macar is back in the lineup, you know, I know he's not playing again early this week, but, you know, once he is back in the lineup, I do suspect the aves will be a little bit more reluctant to, like, I just couldn't see them, even if Eric Johnson got hurt, rolling out Gerard and, you know, McCar as a first pair. Yeah. Right? Whereas I think Hughes genuinely will end the season having played more minutes and a larger role.

Then McCar, I think he'll be a bigger part of Vancouver's success. And as McCar sort of begins to regress a little bit, you know, I think their counting stats will end up being a lot closer than they were early in the season, which is why I just think by, you know, the time people are having this conversation, maybe not at the midpoint, but 60 games in, I just think that it's going to feel very different and that Hughes may yet be the frontrunner in this race. Yeah. Well, is there even a third guy that's like knocking at a door? There is right? It's a pretty clear two-person race, I think. I think it's a two-horse race personally. And then, you know, there's a lot of rookies who are obviously having an impact. I mean, you know, Olifson was a player I just saw live in Vancouver when the Sabres and the Canucks played a scintillating 6-5 afternoon game. And Olives had two points. And, you know, I thought he played pretty well. But he also sort of looked like Steve Buscemi in that movie, right? Like, what's going on, kids? Right? He's kind of the old dude crashing the high school party, right? maybe 25 to something.

Yeah. So, you know, I mean, not that that, look, the Selke rules are, or sorry, the Calder rules are what they are. Yeah. No, he's eligible. He's eligible. But I think from a degree of difficulty perspective being a 20-year-old defenseman versus a 25-year-old forward who's strapped to Jack Eichol is like, like,

like apples and oranges. Totally. Well, and the history of it, right, is the Makarov, you know, won it and he was like 30, right? And they were like, well, that's, but, you know, I do, I do kind of think like, you know, not that 25 is a ridiculous sort of. of age to cut it off. But I mean, we saw it with Panarin and you see it with some of these European players who come over a little bit later. And they are NHL rookies, but they're four or five year pros, right? Like, there are guys who have played six years in the NHL who are

the same age as Oliveson. Like, it's not the same as a guy jumping from college to the NHL the way that, you know, Hughes, McCarr or an Adam Fox, for example, have done this season. I think it is cool, though. Like, um, You know, if you're just looking at evolving wilds, goals above replacement model, I think McCar's first right now tied with Marshall, Marshaun, Hughes's fifth, and then you've got like Heiskenen in the top 10. You've got Marino high. And so you just have like all these young defensemen,

I think more so than getting too worked up about that ranking and thinking that means that he's been the most valuable player in the league. I think it does kind of show the changing of the times where, I mean, we saw it last year with Heiskenen and Dahlin, but it's like it's cool than now teenage and 20. and 21-year-old defenseman can actually be, like, trusted to play top four minutes, and it's not like this crazy thing. Like, it feels like every team has at least one of these guys now that's, like, playing big minutes.

You mean you don't need 200 games to determine what an NHL defenseman is? No, it's a pay your dues. You've got to ride some buses in the H.L. Before you get out here, like... No, well, you know what, though? It also reflects the changing game that we watch every night. Like, how many times do you see a team on the rush where the defenseman, neither defenseman on the pair takes fourth man's ice, right?

Like, it only happens when you are leading... under five minutes, right? Like in all other situations, you're coming true for defensemen, whether they're amic offensive producers or not. There was some, there was a goal the other night. I saw, I think it was last week,

the abs were playing the haves. And Colorado scored a goal where McCar took it from his end of the ice. It was like a one-man rush. He took it to the net. And then Ryan Graves put it in, his defense partner. And both guys were like inside the crease

at 5-on-5 scoring this goal. And I was like, what just happened there? Well, and I bet you if, I bet you if they were asked postgame, one of them made a misread. Like, Graves probably did think it was a winger. And fair enough, I mean, Macarres looks that skilled, but it could be a forward out there. But, you know, I bet you that that was not something that Bednar wanted them to do necessarily. But, you know, it still sort of does reflect that, yeah, there's an increased emphasis on this kind of positionless hockey.

And, you know, you'll see defensemen lurking increasingly, like, even on in-zone play, like, switching with forwards, playing the half-wall. like, you know, you're seeing that more and more. And, you know, used to like just be Dan Boyle. And now, and now every team has someone who can do it. And, you know, it's sort of resetting how we think about young defensemen. And then I think it's going to reset how the NHL pays young defensemen. Like you look at Werenzky and McAvoy this past summer. And, you know, I mean, Werenzky scored more goals than God and ends up with $5 million over three years.

And we've obviously seen with Eichel. and Marner and Matthews, like what's happened to the forward market for second contract, you know, elite players. And, you know, I think we are going to see something like that happen with defensemen. And we're going to see it happen precisely when Hughes and McCar, right? And Heskin and Ann Dallin all expire at the exact same time in the summer of 2021. Like that class, the way that we talked about forwards for four months at the end of last season, up until the last of them signed in early October. Like we're going to be doing that with the defensive class of 2021.

And I suspect at least a couple of them are going to break through that like Drew Doughty, Thomas Shabbat, $7.5,8 million wall. Like I think with how good Heskinin is, how productive McCar is going to be. You know, how dynamic Hughes has been already in Vancouver. Like surely we're going to find our first $10 million second contract defenseman here in the next couple years. Well, it's changing a lot because there was that. brief period of time where it felt like teams were sort of using their leverage to make calculated bets on this stuff. Like the Roman Yosey contract, Oscar Clefbaum,

I guess the Preds did it also with Ryan Ellis, but it was a lot of these, like, before these guys explode, you kind of like get them for six years or whatever at this below market cap hit. But now, since the defensemer coming in at such a young age and making such an immediate impact, you kind of lose that a bit because they're already accumulating the impact and the counting stats that you don't have like you can't really take that educated bet anymore because they've already proven that they're that guy that you would have

paid for otherwise yeah no it's true and and i think you know like the the part of the reason though that you're able to do this is like yosie was a 25 point guy like with weber on the preds they didn't sort of give him prime power play minutes right now mccar hughes like these guys are all quarterbacking power plays from day one or at least within the first month of them being NHL regulars and that kind of changes the dynamics and I think that's why those kinds of deals are going to be harder and harder to find for NHL teams though you know I think about a guy like Dermott in Toronto might be a good sort of prospect to do that with or or a guy like Ethan Bear who I think is probably probably deserves you know if I was placing my ballot today I think

Bear would be among my top five just because John Marino? I think so just because Bears playing the most minutes and he's had a pretty significant, like not that the Oilers have controlled play, you know, to any great degree, but they have way better results all told in terms of their sort of two-way play with Bear on the ice. Have you seen Marino quarterbacking that second unit power? I mean, Marino is unbelievable, right? Like, I, you know, look, you can't be a good pro sports.

League until you have a Marino playing quarterback. But the, no, look, Marino's a special player, and I've been wildly impressed with him. I mean, the Pittsburgh Penguins and their ability to, you know, we'll get into Bluger a little bit later, but, you know, their ability to just maximize the talent of every young man who seems to come through that organization blows my mind. And, but, you know, for me anyway, I think Bear would get, Bear and Fox would get the nod for me just by a hair over Marino just because Fox has had

that pretty significant defensive impact again, similar to Hughes on a team that gives up an awful lot, which the Rangers do. And on a team that really has one scoring line and kind of plays a ton of shut down otherwise, I think Bear's been a crucial part of Edmonton's success.

Okay, so there's two natural segues we can make it. We could talk Jack Adams. Or we could do Norris and stick with the defenseman theme. Why don't we run through Jack Adams quick because we were just talking about the Edmonton Oilers. And for me, I think if the votes were placed by broadcasters today, you know, I think that Dave Tippett would win and I don't know that it would be particularly close. Like I don't think there's any other coach in hockey who could

have the Oilers in the place they are other than, other than Tip. And, you know, I'm not sure that it's sustainable. Like, I don't think they're going to win the Pacific personally. But the level success they're having to this point, the way that he's finally figured out how to run a power play that maximizes Connor McDavid's strengths. I know it sounds ludicrous that that's something that no one else has managed yet, but no one else has managed that yet. I think those are sort of signs of high-end competence. And, you know, I've always thought Tippett probably was among the NHL's better coaches just based on what he'd accomplished in Arizona over sort of those few years that he spent there. And, you know, now, now that he's, you know, maximizing some elite talent and still

sort of icing a discipline team that's just a pain in the neck, game in, game out, you know, for me, I think he's got to be considered the frontrunner at this juncture. I mean, the way I view this award, though, is like, I could break it up into different categories. I could do, like, who do you think is going to win? Because I agree with you. I mean, Tippett has this sort of the narrative of he inherited this team that was underperforming, underwhelming, had the best player in the world and wasn't making the playoffs. And now, even if he doesn't win the Pacific, but they make the playoffs, you can very easily point to the impact he's at and be like, well, look,

he turned this team around. Another guy lump into that is like L.N. Vigno, for example, just because I think we both agree the Flyers are pretty good and they're probably going to make the playoffs. And if they're one of the three Metro teams, that's a massive step up from where they were at last year. But then there's that. Then there's who I think should win. And then there's who I think is the best.

coach, but it's just not a sexy pick. And the best coach is clearly Barry Trott's. Right. I mean, but it's like at this point, I mean, especially the success they had last year. It's like, I mean, I guess maybe we should be a bit surprised because they were like a very obvious regression candidate and they haven't at all. In fact, they've gotten better. But it just in terms of like a guy coming in and basically it doesn't matter who he has, what he has to work with, like he's going to get the most out of them and they're going to be a successful team. And so I think that's like the best thing you could say about a coach and that's exactly what Barry Trots does. Well, what about Joel Quimple?

Because the Florida Panthers as we chat today are second in the Atlantic, which is for my money, the toughest division in hockey. And they have a save percentage that if it's above 900, it's not by much. Right. And that's outstanding. Like that's insane. Like how do you win games with goaltending as, you know, I mean, Panthers goaltenders have been hard to hit this season.

Yeah. Like straight up. And they're still managing to grind out games. Like you look at the sort of scores mid in mid evening and it's panthers are down for nothing and then they somehow win in a shootout. And it's like almost every night like that sort of never, never quite out of it dynamic that the Blackhawks sort of rode to three Stanley Cups seems to have traveled with Quenville. I mean, that's a talented team too.

Like that's how they're scoring their problems. I don't think it's the coaching. as much as like when you have, and especially that power play, like that cures a lot of your But their power play is not even as good as it was last year. It's not. I mean, I'm just, it's the mentality that they're, right, that they're sort of managing and they are a better five-on-five team too. Like, he's had an instant impact on that side of the game. I mean, it would have been tough not to be better from last year. Sure, sure. But I mean, and their defense is still a problem. Like, there's still issues getting organized there and, and that's, you know, unfortunate. But,

but the, but clearly personnel based and not necessarily, um, something that, you know, past Panthers coaches might have fixed. But yeah, I mean, look, I think, I think Joel Quenville and if the Panthers can sort of sustain it, I think he belongs in the conversation. And then if we're talking about teams that are just like smart systems teams that maybe don't have the horses, but play disciplined within it and seem to, you know, consistently overperform. I think, you know, there's three guys that I'd kind of mention.

there and only one of them kind of fits the newcomer bill, but I mean, I think they're doing, they're all doing a bang up job. And one would be Ralph Kruger in Buffalo. I mean, that team has no right to be as, you know, solid throughout as, as they are. And then I would give the, I would point out the Montreal Canadiens. Like, how are the Montreal Canadiens so good at controlling play? It doesn't make sense. No, it really doesn't. I mean, Claudealian is a good coach. Yeah, they clearly don't have the horses. But, but. but they execute a system to a T, and they outperform their true talent to a significant degree, in my opinion.

And then, you know, and I don't want to be called a Homer, but I think Travis Green and the Kinex have a pretty similar MO there. You know, I look at the Kinex as a team with four top six forwards based on true talent. And certainly... Well, they're paying a lot of guys as top six forwards, but... Yeah, yeah. The three energy lines, one scoring line is a new way of team building. Yeah.

But, but, you know, they, I mean, this is a team with Tanner Pearson, who's probably best suited to a third line role. Josh Levo probably best suited to a third line role in their top six, a team with probably no true talent top pair defensemen other than, you know, maybe Quinn Hughes, who is 20 years old and five foot 10. And, you know, I think considering that and considering that they haven't had bounces, really, right? Like they're a middle of the road team by save percentage, by shooting percentage. Like they have, in my view anyway, punched well above their weight in terms of the, you know, caliber of that roster. And I think a lot of that, a lot of credit goes to, you know, a coach who's made sure that they have, you know, good special teams and that they play a pretty basic kind of five-on-five structure

and execute it well. Okay. So I'll run you through my ballot because we actually haven't discussed any of the guys. is my top three. Okay, let's go. So I've got Mike Sullivan and number one. Yeah, I like that pick. And listen, having like no team really beyond, I guess, the least with Tavares and Matthews has the luxury of like Malkin's out at the start of the year. Crosby just carries the team.

And then Crosby goes out and Malkin just steps up and just does exactly what Crosby was doing before that. And like having, that's an amazing luxury, clearly. But if you just look at that roster and you look at their underlying performance and just how dominant they've been despite some of these like calling them not household names is is really underselling some of the names they're trotting out there and getting the most out of and I give sullivan credit for that because it clearly seems like they have sort of this like plug-in-play system where they can just call guys up from the hl slot them in there and get the most out of them and I think all the juggling they've had to do because of injuries it feels like they have like four

or five key contributors on iR at all times and they really haven't missed a beat and so I think that's really impressive. So I have Sullivan there. I have Jared Bednar just because similarly so many injuries and, you know, having McKinnon there through it all makes it a lot easier in terms of carrying guys like Don Skoy and, you know, Calvert's played on the top line and so on and so forth. But I really, I love what Bednar is done from acknowledging the personnel they have, which is this like young skating electric team and just empowering them to play that way where it's like they pretty clearly make a concerted effort to play off the rush. That example, as I said with the Graves and McCargo, you're right, that was probably

not an ideal thing for them to be constantly doing. But it does seem like that's like, I think the Aves players are just like told, like you can just go and just drive the net and try to score off the rush. And if it winds up coming back to bite us, we'll just outscore the team and come back and make up for it. So I really like when coaches use their personnel correctly. And that seems like a very sort of overly obvious thing to say, but there's so many coaches in today's game that basically have a style,

and then they just force their players to play that way. And even if it's not getting the most out of them, it doesn't matter. And in this case, it really feels like the abs of targeted certain players, whether it's getting Don Square and Brokowski this summer, and some of the players they drafted, and then just making the most out of that person. Valerie Nachuchkin, too. Can't stop scoring. Can't stop scoring now.

It's crazy. And then, you know, you mentioned a couple of things. Civic Division coaches. I think Rick Tocke deserves a bit of love. I mean, I know he got through love last year because like that coyote's team was so injured and they almost made the playoffs. But they're their Islanders West, right? Yeah. I mean, just look at what he does for his goalies. I think we're going to talk about Kemper when we talk about the Vesna goalies. But man, like, it really feels like in that system you could basically just put anyone in there and get a 920% out of them. And I think that speaks to what they're doing because I know they've invested a lot of

resources in their defensemen, but I don't think you'd necessarily look at that depth chart and be like, this is the most, these are like the 90s devils. Like it's like, you know what I mean? Like this is a, this is a team that shouldn't in theory be this dominant defensively, but they are and I think that's because of the coach. I like all of your picks. I think, I think at the end of the day, there's a lot of quality coaches in the NHL. Like we've now talked about eight plus guys. And, you know, I think there's a lot of them who are deserving candidates. And there's probably, and there's probably a few others too. You know, I do think Sheldon Keefe could be in the conversation if the Leafs put it together, right? And, uh, and I do think Paul Maurice, too, should probably be

mentioned here because that team has no right to be as formidable as they've been, uh, to this juncture. So, you know, and then obviously Bruce Cassidy always belongs in this conversation, especially considering some of the injuries that they've dealt with while continuing to be for my money, the NHL's best team. So look, my ballot, if I was to put three guys on it, I'd probably go tip at number one. I love your Sullivan pick. You talked to me into it. Sullivan's going two for me.

And my number three would be Joel Quimble. Man, the Keefe thing is funny to me because by all accounts, great young mind. It's going to be an awesome coach in the NHL. But just like from what the talent he's inheriting and his adjustments being, just play my best players more and like don't have Austin Matthews dumping the fucking empower him to just carry it in. It's like, wow, these are some. some really groundbreaking strategies here. Tyson Barry,

you're going to play a little bit more now. Yeah, we're going to put Tyson Barry on the power play. Yeah. I'm patting it. This is I'm the first one I think of doing this. Oh my God. So,

yeah. But listen, I mean, they're a joke, but they're positive adjustments. So I make credit to him for doing that because their previous coach was not doing that. Well,

and look, this team, that Leif's team, they need to be playing track meet style or they, you know, just aren't getting the most out of it. And I can understand why,

you know, a coach would feel like they're not controlling the game in those situations and and on and on. But, but yeah, I mean, look, points well taken. How much credit do you get for doing the obvious? You know, no, but I think that kind of goes to what I was saying about Jared Bednar, though, when you were talking about how the Leafs need to play a track meet style. It's like, that's clearly the avs you themselves that way, and that's how they are playing. And so that's the right way to do it. So I guess getting a coach that does that goes a long way. Absolutely. All right, let's take a quick break here. We're going to hear from a sponsor, and then we're going to keep the conversation going.

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Let's do the Norris now since we, that was our other option for the segue after the Calder. Here's my question. Are we overthinking it by like trying to find guys other than John Carlson to win this award? and do you think anyone can, because it seems like he's built himself up a pretty nice little cushion here. Can anyone catch him between now and end of the season? Not if he maintains something like this scoring rate, right? Like if John Carlson's a 90-point defenseman and no one else is above 65, I mean, I think that gaps hard to, you know, sort of overcome, especially because he is also their matchup guy at five-on-five, and that is a formidable five-on-five team.

I mean, I think so long as that's the resume, you know, I think this is John Carlson's year. And, you know, kind of an interesting story there, right? Like, it's not like John Carlson's been an elite elite defenseman for years and years. Or maybe he has, but he hasn't had that reputation, right? It's not like he's the guy who's just winning it because he's John Carlson. He's kind of gotten himself there and built himself into being something, you know, a little bit more than certainly I think anyone would have expected from the vantage point of five years. ago. But I mean, look, if he keeps this up, you know, or something approximating it, if he's an 80-point defenseman, the next closest guy is 65 points, the capitals remain an elite

team, five-on-five. You know, I think that he'll have a runaway case, and it'll be sort of a race to see who the other two finalists are. Yeah, I mean, the Norris is the ultimate. I guess the Selke is a bit too, but the Norris is the ultimate, like, narrative award, where it's like, whose turn is it? Right. You know, let's reward this guy for being... And that's what I'm saying with Carlson. It's not like anyone would have looked at this and been like, you know, John Carlson, it's his turn, right? Like, he's kind of made himself into be this, made himself and put himself into this extra class, you know, along with the likes of, you know, Doughty Carlson, Pietrangelo, like guys who've kind of had those names and those reputations.

And Carlson's the guy who's having the best season and not by a little bit. But here's what I'll say, like, you know, so he's got the 43 points in 32 games. and I think the most common way to poke holes in his resume or his value for this award would be like, oh, well, yeah, of course he gets to play on the top power play unit with Ovechkin and Kuznetsov and Baxter. Of course, he's going to accumulate the points. And that's fair to an extent. What I will say, though, is he's seventh and five on five scoring amongst all players. Right.

And only McDavid and Dreis had a more primary assist than him. So, like, he's in a great spot, but he's also, like, contributing. It's not like a guy who's just, like, riding the bus with these guys and just kind of, like, touching the puck occasionally and getting a bunch of second assist, like he's clearly a big factor for why they are successful. Right. Or a guy who's got like eight four on four game winners. Like Mike Green did that one year, right? Like this is a different sort of thing. And look, it's not like they could plug and play someone into that spot. You know what I'm saying? Like he means a ton to that team. He's durable as anything, right? He hasn't missed a ton of time over the past few years. Obviously he's,

crushes it in the playoffs. And, you know, the other thing is that power play unit, right? Therefore, familiarity. Like, I wouldn't say that John Carlson stirs the drink by any means on that Capp's power play. But I do think that the reason they're so potent, like the reason that they're the template that literally everyone else has copied across the entire league is those guys have played with each other for so long. They are almost like five Cedine twins out there. Like, they just have a different type of understanding of where they all are. And, you know, I don't think you could remove any of them and have it continue to click the way that it does. And look, full credit to him, he's a genuinely imposing defensive piece too.

I mean, I think he's full value for the Norris. Should he maintain the form that he's shown to this point and sort of win it? Yeah, I'd really encourage people to watch sort of the nuances of that power play because clearly Ovechkin gets a lot of the attention and deservedly so. But like when you see those screenshots and I'm guilty of this where, like, you kind of capture a moment. And it's like, how is Ovechkin that open, having scored nearly 700 goals? And how is the opposing penalty kill leaving him there? And it's like, just watch what Carlson does in terms of, like, creating the angles and the head fakes and how he gets him the puck there from the point.

Because he's a master at that. And I don't think it's as simple as you could just put anyone in there. Like, you could put Demetrior-R-Lov in there and they have the same success. I do think he does a lot of sort of little stuff there to contribute to that success. Real quick on this. If you get a chance to see the Caps live too, watch their power play unit talk before draws and stuff. They also do weird things. Like, they'll drop three guys on neutral zone, on neutral zone entries and breakouts.

Like, it's crazy. The sort of complexity that they're able to bring to their five-on-forward play. So I have Dougie Hamilton second. I have Miro Heskinin. Okay. Let's talk about both. Sure. Let's see your guy first.

You want to do Heskinen first? Heskinen is having some of the biggest two-way impact of any defenseman in the sport in terms of the sort of relative performance of the team with and without him. And he's not doing it because he's crushing it in one end. He's doing it because he crushes it in both. And he's so smooth. He's 21 and he's playing 25 minutes on average per game. You know, he's got 20 points and 30. like he contributes at both ends.

He's as skilled as any defenseman there is. And that Dallas stars team is an elite defensive group, like a truly elite defensive team through and through. And, you know, Bishop's obviously part of that, but Bishop also benefits from circumstances like that Dallas team shuts it down. Yeah. And they shut it down, you know, with a tactical noose that's maybe unmatched around the NHL.

So, you know, if you're having that kind of impact, if you're that great in all ends over 200 feet, and you're the sort of main piece leaned on to do the matchup role for one of the league's stingiest defensive teams. I mean, for me, you're you're in sort of no-brainer. And, you know, he may have 10 fewer points than Dougie Hamilton, but I think his two-way impact is greater. And I think his overall sort of crucial impact on an elite defensive team is, you know, a level above what the Cains require out of, out of Dougie. Yeah, that's fair. He certainly has to do more.

It's funny because, like, last year when he came on the scene, he was just, like, so fun to watch him skate. And everyone was talking about him. And then now you've got Macar, and he's coming in. He's, like, not the shiny Utoe anymore. So it's very easy to kind of slip through the cracks. And he's the most, like, Hughes and McCar do things that are a little bit more. Like, if Macar is a little bit more spectacular than Hughes and what Hughes does is a little more subtle than McCar, then you take another step down and you get to Hesskin. Yeah.

Like, what makes Heskinon special is he does it. everything right all the time, you know, and that's kind of not as sports center worthy anyway. Right, yeah, very positionally sound. Look at all. Use that stick. No, you're right. I mean, I just had to give some Dougie Hamilton some love. Like, the scoring is, um, is obvious. I mean, that goal he's scoring against Edmonton where he faked, the dump pass and then, shot it in. The Keith Yandel special. Yeah, then goes into the penalty box and tells the fan look at the scoreboard. I mean, Dougie, Dougie's on one right now. He's, uh, he's having fun out there. And, you know, that career games team is so dominant in 5-15 and him playing with Slavin.

Like, he's clearly not asked to do too much. But I do like the fact that they're finally using him properly, it feels like, with Justin Falk out of the picture, basically just playing him full-time on special teams and giving him 23 minutes a night. And he's awesome. And all of his numbers check out whether it is the scoring, whether it is how good the canes are when he's on the ice of 5-15. And now that he's playing special teams, like, I, it's weird because, You can never really have like just a fair down the middle opinion on Dougie Hamilton, I feel like.

Like people unfairly bash him for all of these ridiculous personality things. And then he goes to museums. And then feel the need to like overcompensate for it. Right. But I really do think he has been one of the best most impactful defensemen in the league. Yeah. He'd be, you know, among the, like for me, it's Carlson and Heskin and one, two. And then there's a few guys that I'd kind of look at to fill out my ballot of five.

and sort of two of them that come to mind off the top of my head. One is Roman Yossi and the other would be, you know, and I know this might not be a popular pick because if Heskinin gets some benefit of the doubt for me because of his central importance on one of the league's best defensive teams, then, you know, this guy's central importance on one of the league's worst sort of should probably count against him a bit. But I think if you look at it and you look at some of the underlying numbers,

like the impact that Aaron Eckblad's having, despite having an 890 on ice save percentage is pretty unique. And I think he's improved subtly an awful lot over the past couple years. He bounced back big time last year. Bounce back big time last year and has taken another step this year. Like the impact that, and he's playing with a right-handed partner on his left side, a guy in McKenzie Wigger who on true talent is a four or a three maybe, right? Like a second pair guy on true talent playing a matchup role.

pretty impressive what he's doing considering the support. You know, and while the Florida Panthers have significant defensive issues, those issues are much less magnified whenever Eckblad's on the ice. I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I think Shea Weber deserves to be in the conversation here. And I will say this is through 30 games. Like he's 34, he's missed a significant amount of time. The past two years, if he keeps playing 24 minutes tonight, I'm pretty worried about him holding up over 82.

sure but his impact so far this season has been insane and something i did not really see coming like when he's on the ice the Canadians are one of the best teams in the league they generate a lot more they're just insanely good and he's got the scoring as well i think he's got 10 goals already um so he kind of checks off a lot of those boxes now if we're having this discussion three months from now and he's missed 15 games right um we might need to recalibrate but right now i just wanted to give him some love because, you know, he's just been around for so long and it's had a couple rough years, and it's very easy to knock him because of the contract and everything. But he's been, like, legitimately great this year. I suspect we're going to have a lot more, like, odd picks as we go,

where we're giving Canadians players, like, some unexpected love. But I agree with you. Shea Weber's been full value. And considering the size of that contract, that's a, that's a high compliment. And it might be a weird timing to sort of bring this up because I just talked about She Weber, who's 34. But I do think we're in a, we're like in a bit of, a bridge year right now with with defensemen right because it feels like we're transitioning from that Eric Carlson, Drew Dowdy, you know, that that group of defensemen that have been sort of mainstays and locks for the top of the Norris discussion for almost a decade now. Yeah. To this next era of Heiskenen, you know, Dalin, hopefully when he comes back healthy and balances

back, McCar, Hughes, so on and so forth. Like, so I wonder how quick that turnaround is going to be. And I guess the next logical question is we were talking about how McCar and Hughes have been amazing. I feel like there's an opening here for one of those guys to jump in into the Norris discussion legitimately, especially like filling out the ballot towards the sort of third place. Because I don't think beyond Carlson's crazy scoring season, I don't think there's like any very obvious picks in terms of guys that have to be inside of this top. Well, so my thing, though, is I don't typically vote for a Norris candidate who plays second pair of minutes. Right. Right. kind of my thing. And look, that's just my feeling toward it. I just think you have to be the guy

or one of the main guys, you know, at even strength for your club to be seriously considered as a Norris candidate for me. And that's just my personal criteria. Now, one thing that I also do kind of think about is I do think increasingly like, you know, Heskinen, for example, versus Carlson, right? Like, Carlson's an excellent defense player, taking nothing away from him. But, But the reason that he is the frontrunner to win this award is his scoring, right? And the Norris itself is supposed to be for the best all-around defensemen. And I do think we should probably, or the league should probably split up and have, especially with how the game is changing in that new class of defensemen that are coming in

and the way that they play. I mean, I think it would be cool if the NHL split off and had the Norris for the best all-around defensemen. things and an offensive defenseman award like first of all you should have an award named after bobby or anyway right and um you know you should recognize more players anyway and i think if you had a bobby award um sort of offensive defenseman award right then first of all carlson maybe would win both which would be cool but also then i'd be saying macar and hughes both probably should be considered for this right and uh and i think that's you know just a just a good thing for the league and and just a good thing all around. I think it makes sense to have an award that recognizes defensive play from defensemen.

And right now, the Norris is essentially the art Ross for D-Men. And that's not ideal. Yeah, but we're going to get into the Selke here in a second. And what I would say to that is I really do not trust people's abilities to evaluate defensive play. No, nor do I. But that's kind of the elephant in the room here, which is why I think people do gravitate towards scoring for this, for the Norris, because it's like much easier to point to that offensive impact. Whereas it feels like this defensive impact discussion is much more sort of like nebulous and subjective in terms of like, oh, like this guy. But people are getting better at it, right? Like people are genuinely getting better at sort of the defensive side of it, you know, to the point where, you know, I think the,

the, yeah, I think people are getting better at it to the point where a guy like Heskin and will get serious consideration, you know, whereas that would have seemed like a name out of a left field five years ago, right? So, I mean, look, I agree with you. I'm not saying that they should split it up because then they'd get it right. I'm saying they should split it up because I'd like to be able to reward dynamic offensive play from sort of blue liners, but with the way that the Norris is currently sort of said to reward the best all around defensemen, like I do feel a need to only vote for first bear guys, right? Yeah, no, that's fair. I do think, I mean, like, if you think back to like the peak of Eric Carlson, I think there was this massive misconception that he was like a liability

defensively just because you'd see these occasional highlights where like a guy would be going around him. He'd miss all the times where he'd use his insane speed and stickwork to like just nip a scoring chance off the rush in the bud completely, whereas an inferior skating defenseman would allow that guy to come towards a net, right? So with guys like Hughes and McCar in this next wave, they're not being relied upon to that degree yet in their career. But I do think that just because there's gift.

it offensively doesn't prevent them from being able to use those skills they make them special to also be awesome defensively in different ways. No, for sure. I just, you know, I would like to see, I would like to see it sort of separated. And I'd also like to see it separated in part because, you know, you think about a guy like Matias Atcombe, right? Like, I don't think you could trade Nashville anything for Atcombe. And one of the reasons for that is there are like five Matias Ekombs around the entire NHL, like the shutdown defenseman who's also fast enough to really play and check the forwards these days, like how many of those exist even, right? There's just, it's so rare.

But I'd like to see the value of a player like that sort of be potentially recognized anyway, not that it necessarily would be. I mean, I still think you'd find the ballot being Carlson and, you know, on and on. But like what, Carlson, Heskin and Dougie Hamilton, right? It would probably be the same ballot. So I understand why it might be redundant, but I also do think that I'd like to see them try and figure out a way to, you know, recognize the contributions that a unique piece like an Acombe sort of has. Or we were going to retroactively go back and give Nicholas Jalmersen and Mark Edward Vlasic a bunch of a lot. There you go.

That's exactly what I'm hoping for. Okay, well, let's keep the conversation going with defensive play then. Let's talk about the Selke. And I think this is going to be a quick one because I really do feel strongly that it's like Sean Cachari. and then like everybody else. Yeah, I agree with you. Chunketturier is a monster. He's insane.

He's an alien. He glides around the ice and just like perfectly arrives at exactly the moment he needs to to just completely destroy your breakout attempt. Like it is mean. It's actually, you watch it and you imagine being a player on the other team. And you can imagine feeling like he's being cruel to you. Yeah. in a totally different way than like being tough, just like, oh, what are we going to do?

Like, he's not, he's cutting our head off at the stem every time. Like, it's ridiculous. Yeah, he's the perfect marriage of like physical tools because he's got that reach and, and get around the ice effortlessly, it seemingly, but also like the smarts in terms of like just knowing like where to go and where to be. And he like reads the play three steps ahead. He's so fun to watch. And he's a 60% face off guy and he crushes on the penalty kill, you know.

and that Philadelphia Flyers team is one of the NHL's most annoying two-way clubs to play in terms of the caliber of their team defense. So, you know, I mean, look, I think Couturier's case is going to be pretty open shot, especially if Philadelphia continues to be as stingy as they've been to this point. Yeah, I'm just curious to see, like, how many people just give Patrice Bergeron votes here without actually having watched hockey this year. Or even looked at his games played. Yeah.

I mean, I assume it's still Taves Copatar Bergeron with Kessler for. If it's Dave's Copatara. Get a little Jordan Stahl in there and we're done. Well, Jordan Stahl could be a dark horse candidate this year. You don't think so? A very dark horse, yeah. Very dark. I mean, he's been solid, right?

I mean, beyond Coutheria, I think it's so wide open that like, sure. Bluger? Can we speak, talk about a blueger? Yeah. The Bluger, Ashton Reese and Brandon Tanev, league best checking line. and I'm pretty confident that two of those three people are made up or generated by the GM mode like 2023 draft class creative player.

Yeah. It's crazy. They are ridiculous. Yeah. The HABS too have. Yes. Do you want to do your, uh, because you wanted to give Brennan Gallagher and then I talked to you out of it.

I think Brendan Gallagher. If Mark Stone cannot win this award. Look, Brendan Gallagher and Brad Marchand are my two wingers this year, right? Like the two-winger is that I think deserve a shot. But because I don't think Brandon Gallagher has any hope, I'm going to start to stump for Dineau because I think Deneau has been a tremendous part of Montreal's success. And, you know, we talked a little bit about Claude Julian earlier. But like Deneau and Max Domey, right?

Like Max Domey wasn't even a center two years ago. And Deneau was like a fringe, a guy on the fringes of an NHL roster. And now those are two centers. on a top five, top six forward group in the NHL, like that blows my mind. That is incredible work by the Canadians. But look, Deneau has been imposing the way that the Canadians control play when he's on the ice is through the roof. I think he's extremely annoying when he's checking you and full marks to him for that.

But look, Brad Marchand, I think deserves some genuine consideration here. And I think Philip Deneau does as well. Yeah, Brad Mershan, man. Like, when you watch those Bruins game, especially on like the penalty kill, so disruptive. Like it feels like just like so many like deflections and and chasing down pucks and and that must just be so annoying to play against. So it's weird to say that like Patrice Bergeron isn't even the best defensive player

on his own line. But I really do think like Marchand's impact out there just in terms of activity and what he does to opposing teams like has to be considered. I think Brad Marchand should probably come up again too once we get to the heart conversation. I know Past is getting sort of more of the headlines but Brad Marchan's outscored him five on five. And, and, you know, I mean, there isn't much that Brad Marshon doesn't do an elite level these days, right? Like, this is not a second line passed anymore. Like, this is a truly elite NHL player and probably deserves to be recognized as such. I think he is increasingly, but, you know,

I think the extent to which he is a truly dominant, you know, like probably a top five forward in the league, you know, I don't know that that's sort of recognized. And it probably should be. Yeah. Keep an eye on Anthony Sorrelli for this award. I don't think he's going to win it, but I think there's going to be, maybe not this year, but sometime down the road you're going to be like, oh, Anthony's Rayleigh. I like him up there. I like Sorrelli. I've got time for that. He's definitely doing some heavy lifting for them defensively. And, you know, at the end of the day, Braden points their main matchup guy, right? So that's sort of the knock against him, but he's definitely starting the

most shifts for them in the defensive end and on and on. So, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't ignore Sorrelli for this award by any means, but I do think that, you know, when I sort of look at... He's no Bluger. He's no Bluger. Like, Bluger's going to be on my ballot. I don't know. I don't know what else to say about this. Could you pick Bluger out of Alina?

No. No chance. Zero percent chance. I, uh, but I can pick him out when he's dominating play on the ice. Like, I think that's the league's best checking line, right? Like, I think, I think, especially if, you know, when Crosby comes back and on and on, like, could Bluger, Ashton, Reese, and take him? Hannev be like, you know, some 12 years later version of the Paulson-Niedermeyer Moen

checking line? Like, could they be a dominant checking line that fuels a club's surprising playoff success? Like, for me, I think so. Yeah. They're that good. And that's something that, you know, I honestly think if I was filling out my ballot today, I think Bluger would be on it. This has to be the most bluegar talk on any hockey budget. Ever. Long, long, long time. Okay, let's rattle through the rest of these, Vezna. I really do think... We're going to differ here, I'm pretty sure. I think Connor Hallibuck has to be the run.

He's number one for me. Okay, we're not going to differ. It has to be. I mean, listen, acknowledging that it's 30 games, I think the most could change in this award in the final 50 games because a goalie can just randomly fall off for 10 straight games. Yeah, but where are the Jets without Hellebuck?

I mean, that's the thing. Lottery. They're in the lottery. He's, his numbers are amazing this year. Like, he has a 9-33 save percentage. He's first in goals saved above average. He's played in 25 of his team's 31 games. You look at the blue line in front of them.

And we thought, especially after Hellibuck's down season last year in the first year of that of a mega dealy sign, like, you're like, oh, man, this is going to be a mess. And then they lose all of these defensemen. And you start the year thinking, like, wow, the Jets are going to be just the worst defensive team. And their, their, like, shot profile isn't good. But they're just not giving up goals because. Connor Conahelabuck has been amazing. So as long as he can keep playing at this level,

the Jets are going to be fine. Now, whether it's smart to be relying on a goalie to do that for full 82 games is an entirely different discussion. But just if we're talking best goalie, most impactful for the 30, it's got to be him. I agree with you. So who do you have two? Well, so this is where we're going to disagree because I've got Darcy Kemper. Yeah. And I look at Darcy Kemper and T. Ranta and they're both above average goalies. and, you know, I like to look at the guys who, like, I like to give a bunch of additional credit to the goalies who I think couldn't be replaced simply. Yeah. And so for me, number two on my ballot, Toronto Maple Leafs MVP, Freddie Anderson.

Yeah, I've got him at third, so I'm right there with you. Okay, cool. I just thought, like, Kemper's resume is just, like, so undeniably insane right now. It is. It's nuts. And I think it's going to continue. Like, I think it's very viable because of that defense runoff. I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth because I'm talking up Rick Talk is defensive

system and then I'm also saying the bully. But it's just like, if you look at it, it's just like at some point you just have to, I mean, and listen, it's crazy because Darcy Kempir went from like six years of being a league average backup to the past year and a half having like a 930 save percentage of being the best goal in the league in terms of goal saved. It's just like, what? Yeah. No.

Oh, I remember watching him for Team Canada a few years ago in the world and being like, oh, boy. But he was on like some stingy like Minnesota Wild Team too, right? and like you'd watch me, he'd be like, I think this guy's best attribute is that he's really tall. Right.

And now, and now he's like, just good? For sure. He's not on my ballot at all, but I completely understand the pick. I mean, the case for Freddie Anderson is clearly,

like, look at what every other goalie that's played for them has done, and then look at him and the fact that he's like right there with all these guys in terms of his stats behind that defense. Yeah, and I'm a little biased

because I just watched him stop eight breakaways in the game games of the Vancouver Canucks yesterday, and he didn't even look, the thing I like about Freddie Andrews, the most. And this is like complete and tangible nonsense. But the thing I like about Freddie Anderson the most is when he's on his game, he like doesn't let the opposition see him sweat. Like some goalies sell the glove save. Yeah. Right. Freddie Anderson gloves it and his gloves

always high anyway. And he just takes it down and he's like, oh, you thought that was a dangerous chance? Like that was easy for me. Like the way that Freddie Anderson composes himself in game is kind of unlike I've, unlike much you that you see around the NHL and I kind of am here for it. He's the most consistent goalie in the league, too. Like, I think he has a 9-21 percentage this year. But like he basically, since he came to the leaves, he's just like between 9-17 and 9-19 or something, like every year. Repeatable, right?

At the most unpredictable wall of the help position, which is so impressive. No, for me, Freddie Anderson's too. If that team gets back on track, he could, he could sort of edge out Hella-Buck. Not that I'll have a ballot as I'm not in NHLGM. But, you know, for me, Anderson would be the guy that I'm stumping for. For three, I guarantee you we, well, you have, I know you have Freddie, so I have Mark Andre Fleury. Yeah, I have Flurry and Bennington as like my just missed the cut.

Yeah. Could potentially get in there. Bennington's unbelievable, but Jake Allen performs well behind that defense too. And that's kind of amazing because he sucks. Yeah. So those are kind of the things that I, that I, uh, that I look at. Like Malcolm Suban has not been as good. I don't, I don't particularly rate that Vegas defense, right?

Like I like Shea Theodore a ton, but I don't think that's as good a defensive group as maybe reputation would have it or as good as they are up front, right? And as good as they are controlling play and just sort of being disciplined about playing pucks into space and playing a symbol game. You know, I think that Mark Andre Fleury's been essential for them sort of keeping pace in the Pacific to this point. And, you know, for me, he's a pretty special player. I think, you know, I'd like to see him get some love. You know, he's also one of those guys who I don't think is going to drop off, right? Like, this is who he is. He's an unbelievable goaltender.

It's still hilarious that the Pittsburgh Penguins gave up a second round pick in order to give up on him. Yeah. Pretty funny. Yeah. I mean, he went from being wildly overrated to wildly underrated to, I guess now. I was like, appreciated. Yeah, just appreciate it.

No, he's awesome. And he's similar to Anderson. And if you just look at the splits of like him versus every other goalie Vegas has ever tried in their short franchise history, like his impact is is pretty clear there. So I like the flurry pick. So we got the Art Ross. Two horse, two oilers race, right? Yeah. I mean, it's McDavid.

I'm not going to make a case for anyone else here. I'll make a case for Leon Dreisdell because he plays with McDavid. Right. And he's got more he's got more five and five points, I think. and more primary points. But he's shooting 20%, but he shot 20% last year. Yeah. He might just be a guy who shoots at 20%.

Yeah. No, he's a, I don't think he is, but he's a, holy cow, he's good. No, he's insane. Do you remember coming into this season though and being like, well, he's gonna regress and be maybe like a 35 goal guy? And then it's like, oh no, he bends space and time.

Like, that's fine, fair enough. Way to go, Leon Dresa. Yeah. I still think you, like, it's a sucker's bet to take anyone other than McDave. I agree with you. But if there was anyone I was going to take, it would be dry-sidal and that's because of Connor McDavid.

Well, I was going to talk about McKinnon here, but let's, let's loop in the rocket Richard here as well. Sure. So Pasternak has, you know, jumped out to his lead. He's still got whatever, the 25 goals. I do think, like, it's a great story. And just based on how ridiculous his shot is and also the fact that, like, he's the main trigger man on that power play and he plays with Marshaun and Bergeron.

who also require their own attention. I think it's tough to... Opposing defenses can't just limit his time and space and key in on him because the Bruins can beat you in so many different ways. So I think it's possible that he's going to have a crazy shooting percentage because he's actually been getting better and better every year

and he's not going to be like over 20%, but he could be in the high teens and at his volume he could score a ton of goals. I just think like we're getting too cute here with forgetting the fact that Ovechkin is the greatest goal score ever and he's quietly on pace again for like 53 or 54 goals while shooting at his career norms and there's like it's insane that all year this guy can be just on pace for 50 goals and there's like nothing unsustainable about his his his statistical resume he's probably going to do a

little bit better than he's done to this point yeah right like he's only shooting 10% at evens I know right like he's it's crazy he's probably due for some bounces yeah which is nuts because he's 21 goals already It's and and what I feel like if I was placing a bed here, I'd go with him also because I feel so confident about his like durability too, right? You just know he's going to be on the ice and he's not going to have any down periods. Like he was going to score every other night. Yeah. Russian machine never breaks.

It's crazy, man. He, uh, yeah. And you know what? I think it is important that like it doesn't matter that he gets to Gretzky. He's the greatest goal scorer of all time. Like go watch Gretzky highlights. Gretzky scored against Gretzky. goalies who didn't drop down to their knees regularly, right?

Like, it's a different world, a different sport. It literally looks like a different sport. Ovechkin is, I don't care where his career totals end up. Ovechkin's the best goal score I've ever seen. I think he's the best goal score of all time. And, you know, he's not going to need to be first all time in NHL goals for that to be true. Like, we should all just agree that that's true now.

Yeah. I just want to go out there. I don't have an argument. Yeah. I mean, that's it's, anyone thinks other. Otherwise, like, get out of here with this Mike Bossy. It's in business, okay? Like, when people are, like, telling me that Ovechkin's not the greatest goal score ever, it's like, come on.

Yeah, I mean, look, Mike Bossy is a tremendous, was a tremendous goal score too. But just go watch the goal. It's like, oh, just go watch the highlights. It's crazy what Ovechkin has to do to score versus what those guys had to do to score. Yeah. Like, it's just a different sport. No, 100%. The Dark Horse candidates here, I think, are McKinnon just because of his volume.

Like, it's insane. and he's actually like keeping pace of Levechkin in terms of the shot totals. And he's also got a relatively low shooting percentage on the power play, which I think, you know, he'll probably get a few more bounces there at five on four going forward. So, you know, I agree with you. Nathan McKinnon's kind of the one guy that I'm side-eyeing as having a shot. So here's an honorable mention I'm going to give as a Dark Horse candidate. I do think there is going to be a year where Connor McDavid decides to just win this award.

like there's going to be a year Crosby had that one year where he just scored an insane amount of goals right like where it's like it feels like McDavid doesn't want to because like that's not his nature it's kind of like the like LeBron James thing or like he wants to get his teammates involved and he's like much more comfortable as a playmaker but he basically

is she shooting more this year and he's still maintaining his efficiency and he's just so insane off the rush that like I do believe that he is a 17% shooter as crazy as that sounds and so if he gets that when everything's a breakaway So if he gets that volume to like, he's been in like the mid 200s in terms of shots, it seems like he could conceivably just get it up to like 300.

And if he maintains that efficiency, that's just 50 goals in the bank right there. And I understand it's kind of, you know, loose math and easier said than done. But when you watch him, it does feel like it's a matter of like him wanting to play that type of, or wanting to beat you that way as opposed to getting someone else involved. So I don't know if he'll ever have that year where he does want to. But I mean, he's already got what, the 19 goals in like 30-something games or something this year? like he could score 50 pretty easily this year. Yeah, I'll pick OV to win it personally.

Until he retires, I'm going to pick OVee. Yeah, me too, pretty much. Or until he falls off and like reinvents himself as a third line checker and something ridiculous. I still scoring 30 goals. You know, I also, I also like, Ovechkin signed that deal that he's on now prior to the, you know, sort of onset of the eight year limit, right? And I can't remember exactly how many years it was, but I think it was like 12. and I actually think it expires the year after this one, summer of 2021. And he's now underpaid.

Like, how ridiculous is that? I mean, I don't think you'd have to look very hard to find articles that are like, well, you had to do it, but it'll probably be a, you know, a tough deal toward the end. Which is probably a pretty fair take. Super accurate. Super fair. Like the fact that he's not missing games and hasn't dropped in efficiency at this point is the fact that he's underpaid by $6 million per year is like, like literally.

the savings on Ovechkin's contract are an additional top line forward for the cap. Like there's a big reason they won the cap and the fact that, or the cap, the cup. And part of it is that OV is underpaid by $6 million a year. Yeah. It's crazy. Okay. Let's do the heart. What's your list looking like?

McDavid's one for me. You know, I just think he's definitely the best player in the world. He's the best player in the world. and he's the best player in the world for a team that, you know, I say, I give Vancouver credit because they're winning with four top six forwards on true talent. Like the Edmonton Oilers have two mind-bendingly good forwards and, you know, Zach Cassian's top 10 in the league and even strength goals scored. And, you know, James Neal has 10 on the power play and guess how many goals they'd have

if they didn't play with Dry Seidel and McDavid, right? Like, it's not, they're not that good like that. thing for ESPN this week where it's like I tried to look at how players are performing this year in terms of like the shots they're taking. Right. And then how many goals we'd expect them to have based on their career norms or over the past three years how they've shot. And like the two of the guys in the top five that are just shattering their expectations are Cassian and Neal because Cassian's playing with them at 515 and Neil on the power play. It's like, yeah, when those two guys are passing the buck to you, you're probably going to shoot significantly higher than you did at other days. Yeah.

No, look, they, I mean, for me, McDavid's just the best in the world. And, and, you know, I come back to, I come back to that game three weeks ago, right? Where McDavid was on that unholy tear. And, you know, they roll in Edmonton. And I remember showing up at the rank and people are like, well, you know, I never thought that I'd say McDavid's got any competition for being the best player in the world. But with what McKinnon's doing, like, it's becoming a conversation. And then McDavid goes out and just tears the abs of place. part, right? Like, destroys them. And to me, that was like some, I can swear, right? Yeah. Because that was some alpha shit, right? Like, that was straight up, you know, don't get ahead of yourself. Yeah, you're reminding us who the king is. And for me, the only other, right, exactly. The only other candidate for me would be McKinnon. Yeah. At least, like, serious candidate. And, and, you know, I think we've seen that McDavid has no time for that. And, you know, what McKinnon did with Alabama's Goggin'And imagine. Unreal. Crazy, though.

Crazy. I mean, McKinn's the second best player in the world, right? But he is the second best player in the world. I love how, I agree with that. I do,

like, both guys are insanely fast, but I love how, like, the contrasting styles of, like, McKinnon is so, like, violent in terms of, like, his movements.

It's, like, so much, like, jittery, like, stop and start. Like, it seems like you just, like, can't, like, it's crazy what he does, whereas McKin is just this more,

like, there's just more, like, more, like, like, light, like, kind of glides at full speed up and down the ice.

Would you remember Event Horizon, the movie? Sam Neal rips his eyes out. It's like a spaceship that basically finds the devil in a black hole. Anyway, there's this idea that, like, at one point in the thing, they're like, what's the fastest way to point from point A to point B? And someone draws like a line across the paper, and they're like, no. And they fold the paper. And it's like, that's what McDavid does.

So true. Yeah, I think it is McKinnon v. McDavid. And then I wanted to give Jack, some love here. I don't think he's like a viable candidate to win this award, but like just in terms of doing the most with the least and putting the team on his back and these past 14 games, um, of his, he has this like points to be going where he's basically two points a game. And, and he's nuts, like watching him through the neutral zone. And, um, he's also an interesting guy because he has always been a volume shooter with low efficiency. And now he's maintaining the volume while shooting more efficiently. suit between 17%. And I think the answer is probably somewhere in the middle. But it does remind me a bit of what happened in McKinnon's career where he started off his career as his guy who was like shooting 9% and then all of a sudden in year four or five he figured it out. And I wonder if a little bit of that is happening with Eichl and how much that changes his sort of career trajectory

because he's never been a huge goal scorer despite the fact that he's been one of the most dominant players in the league since he entered. Jack Eichle would be on my ballot. If I was like if I was filling out my ballot, I'd have McDavid one, McKinnon two. I'd have Jack. Jack Eichel, and then, you know, no specific order, but three through five, I'd have in some order, Brad Marchand, Connor Hallibuck, and Jack Eichle. All right. Plug some stuff. Let's get out of here. Sounds good.

Subscribe to The Athletic. Use one of those good promo codes or just make sure to click on my articles before you subscribe. Also, the Vancast with J-Pat and Drancer. We dropped that twice a week once on any podcatcher you use to listen to podcasts like this one. and once behind the paywall at the athletic. I also contribute to TSN 1040, so tune in to Halford and Brough in the mornings, especially if you're in Vancouver

or use the TSN 1040 Listen Live link online. Quick Google search, we'll get you there. Thanks for having me, Dimitri. Always good fun. This was a blast, man. This is the 30 game mark. We'll check back in later in the season and see where we went right and where we went wrong.

Check out all Adrenza's work, and it was a pleasure, man. We'll chat soon. Videocast with Dimitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovic and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockey pdiocast.