The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 329: Hall and Yotes

Episode Date: December 19, 2019

1:30 New Jersey getting quantity over quality7:00 Comparing big defensemen to Colton Parayko 17:00 Overrating good but not great prospects 20:00 Where do the Devils go from here? 26:00 Where Hall can make a difference for the Coyotes40:00 Evaluating Hall's performance this season 49:00 Potential landing spots for Hall this summerSee acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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My name is Dimitra Filpovich. And joining me is my good buddy, Todd Cordell. Todd, what's going on, man? not too much the devils just won a game which was pretty rare occasion so that was fun i'm ready to do this yeah the devils did win a game we're gonna um we're gonna devote today's episode to the taylor hall trade we're going to try to really deep dive in and kind of hit it from all angles possible for all the parties involved for the devils for the coyotes for taylor hall for all the teams that um missed out on him and what we can expect from them moving forward so i don't know for you as the

I mean, we can take this so many different directions right off the bat. Which one of those sort of categories do you want to start off with? Let's start with like the trade itself and the return. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, all right. Well, so I mean, here's the thing. And, you know, you cover the devils and I'm sure you're also more of a prospects guy than I am. So you can kind of talk more a bit about the return here.

But at least from the outside and, you know, we can spend this sort of. of to other trades involving star players as well and how the NHL teams tend to operate. But it certainly seems like we can't really comment on what else was available, but I find it hard to believe that the devil's acknowledging that they didn't have very much leverage couldn't get better than this because it does feel like they were sort of prioritizing a package that involved a quantity of assets. It's reminiscent of what the Ottawa senators have done over the past couple years where they want to, you know, send out that press release for their fans where they can be like, oh, we have like six new things to show for this one player that's going out the door. And I think that's typically a mistake because while in theory you give yourself more kicks at the can in terms of lottery tickets, especially with draft picks, when you're kind of inheriting a lot of these prospects that have been around for a couple years and haven't panned out yet, it does feel like you're sort of limbering.

your upside or limiting your ceiling for your return because you're just settling for kind of the bottom of the barrel stuff as opposed to getting one sure thing. I don't know, does it feel like that for you in terms of this return for Hall? Yeah, that's what I thought on first glance and after digging deeper. It just, when you're trading a guy who won MVP just over a year ago, you want to get a surefire can't miss player or prospect. Like when Montreal traded Max Pacharetti who I, he's having a fantastic year, but I think we'd agree that Taylor Hall

is a little bit above him or can be when he's had his best. They still got a good player in Tatar, a can't miss prospect in Nick Suzuki, who looks really promising right now, and draft picks. Whereas the Devils, they got a first round pick, which is great, and they have another pick where if Arizona goes deep into the playoffs and or Hall resigns,

that could turn into a second and first, which is great as well. At the end of the day, if they don't hit on the picks, I don't think they're going to get a top six forward or four defensemen out of the deal for what I think we can agree as a top 10 winger in the league,

if not top five. Yeah, that's the thing that's puzzling to me here that, because I assume the devils, I mean, it was pretty clear they were open for business and as soon as they sat Taylor Hall out for those two road games, it was pretty clear that the writing was on the wall and a trade was imminent

and they couldn't really afford to come back to New Jersey didn't play these home games with this kind of circus still hanging over the franchise. And so with the entire league being aware of this and them essentially having a for a sale sign and Hall, you know, bidding a need for a lot of teams because even though scoring is up around the league, like pretty much every single team could use a top flight winger that drives possession and is a neutral zone monster such as he is when he's at top of his game. And so whether it was Colorado or even Edmonton, I mean, we've seen like St. Louis, Calgary, I mean, Montreal, the Islanders, so on and so forth, there was a whole

plethora of teams that had reported interest in Hall. And even though, you know, you can view him as a peer rental because it seems like he wasn't going to sign with anyone regardless, and he wants to take this thing and play out the string and see what happens this summer, if you are a playoff team or you consider yourself to be such and you have a puncher's chance come to postseason, like he could make such a difference for you so for you know it to ultimately be like the 20-something pick as the premium um asset in this trade like i find it hard to believe that other teams couldn't have matched that or even or even upped it so that's kind of the curious thing for me yeah i'd agree with that as well like i understand they don't want to risk him getting injured and

as you said once they scratched them and the writing was kind of on the wall you can't just kind of put him back in and pretend nothing happened but if you're trading a player like hall again you want i can't miss guaranteed surefire really good nchl player and the best prospect they got back in the deal is kevin ball who i know some people in hockey are pretty high on him but i've seen him quite a bit in the hl and to me i think the best case scenario is that he'd be a complimentary maybe number four defenseman who can play with somebody who can do more of the uh carry the mail more with the puck um he's big, he's strong, he's physical, and I know everyone likes to pigeonhole those kinds of players

as good defensively, even if sometimes they aren't, but I think he is legitimately good defender. I've tracked some of those games. I've talked to people who have tracked his games. He has very good neutral zone defense numbers. He can break the puck out of the defensive zone, but he has very limited offensive upside, I think, and again, him as the best prospect and deal is pretty disappointing to me. Well, it feels like the best thing that ever could have possibly happened for for guys like Kevin Ball and that sort of prototype is colton Pareko um sort of ascending to mainstream status and people especially last postseason recognizing that he's an insane defender because of that sort of size and skating combo but what I think people

lose sight of is that you know preco's scoring numbers aren't particularly high because he plays on this kind of more low event conservative defensively oriented blues team but whether it's his shot or whether it's um you know sometimes you see that kind of creativity in his dashes up the ice and when he really kind of lets it go like it feels like if he was in a different situation he could have uh much crazier offensive numbers and then we'd stop comparing guys who'd happen to be six six and good skaters to get golden brago because it does feel like he's much more of a unicorn than a sort of uh replicable uh prototype for for other big uh young defenseman yeah i would agree with that he's definitely uh an exception to the norm. Most guys

when they get those comparisons, they never really live up to it. And again, I think, I don't want to knock on ball here. He's a fine prospect, but a lot of people they're like, oh, well, if he's the best prospect in the Taylor Hall trade, he's got to be good. And he's on Team Canada, so he's got

to be good. He could be a good player, but to me, I think maybe third-paring defender and good penalty killer is probably like the most likely outcome. And again, that's not great, when you're talking about a guy you get as a key piece for Taylor Hall. And I saw Rayshiro did an interview with MSG during the intermission tonight.

And he was kind of talking about how he was really excited because the devils don't have many big, strong physical defenders. And that's kind of been a problem for them a little bit. And they've been worked over in the defense zone. But I don't think Ball is just like a guy who will develop into a player who just erases all those issues and then magically they're all set. well and it does feel like based on all the reports whether it was from you know pierre lebron or elliott friedman or so on and so forth it felt like the devils went into this process kind of

boxing themselves into a corner a little bit where they essentially decided like we need to get you know sort of your more traditional defensive prospect because we consider that a need in our pipeline and we want that to be the sort of driving force for the return in this trade and by doing So maybe that explains why they went this route because whether it was, you know, knocking on Edmonton's door and seeing if they could get, you know, Pooley-R-Vs, RFA rights and another prospect or, you know, on Oliver Wallstrom from the Islanders or so on and so forth. Like, it felt like a lot of these other teams had intriguing higher upside forward prospects, but maybe, you know, Ray Sherrill and the Devils just went into this with an idea of what they wanted. and when you do that, you kind of cut off a certain segment of your potential trade base because you really are kind of dealing for a specific thing and maybe only certain number of teams actually have what you're looking for.

Yeah, I would agree. I was thinking the same thing. Like a few days before the trade initially happened, I was thinking like no team is going to give their very best prospects for Hall if they don't think they can re-sign them. I get that. But I was thinking maybe Paul Yarvey from Edmonton or Klim Koston from St. Louis or Martin Cout from Colorado or somebody who's like a promising

prospect maybe has a little bit of flaws but like the ceiling's still there. I was thinking something along those lines and who knows maybe something like that was offered. Shiro said during the intermission as well that there were packages you know with centers or wingers involved and they kind of prioritized the defenseman Kevin Ball. So I don't know that it'll work out all that great for them but I guess we'll see down the road. Yeah, I think people sort of set themselves up for disappointment with trades like this because as soon as you start speculating, you kind of get into that, you know, for a mentality where people are posting outrageous, like, oh, boy, forget Bowen Byram or what if we get these other top defensive prospects? And it's like, that's kind of a non-starter. Like, you need to go into that expecting that that's not going to be the case for a rental.

But it felt even like in terms of defensemen, like maybe, I don't know if like a Vince Dunn or something from St. Louis, he's obviously not the bigger type of defenseman. but I just think more sort of offensive upside or even like a Romanov from Montreal and what we've seen from him in limited international viewings. Like I feel like there were different routes that I would have personally taken. But, you know, let's stick with the devil's theme here because it certainly seems like the urgency was there to move him. I don't know. I think that process was probably expedited by just how big of a mess this season's been and how much of a clown show it's been with the coach firing and with not just the losses. but the types of losses in terms of starting the year with all these blown leads and how

comically bad they looked in some of these games against the sabers and against the Rangers on home ice. And so, you know, you've factored that in with the combination of not wanting to risk injury with him, especially considering his recent track record. And, you know, you made a point of this online. There's also like a selfish aspect of this where not having Taylor Hall in your lineup if you're the devils, acknowledging that this is a loss season helps increase the likelihood that your draft pick's going to be higher. And, you know, in theory, you can maximize your return because the team that's dealing for them is acquiring them here in December where they're going to get him for

10, 15 extra games as opposed to if they acquired them at the deadline. So you factor all of that in and it does, I don't know if it's a good or bad thing for the devils ultimately because maybe if they had waited this thing out a little bit more and sort of let it organically play out, a team might have had some injuries or might have kind of talked themselves into being more desperate. and paying a larger premium, but it does feel like they internally had this sort of rough timeline of how they wanted to do business. And ultimately, I think that's a big reason for why they got the return that they did.

Yeah, it's kind of like a double-edged sword. Like if they held on to them now, they risked the injury or maybe some teams that were interested in all, but on the bubble of the playoffs mix, maybe they wouldn't be around and later down the road so that the asking price or the potential return would go down because there's less of a market. But at the same time, the return they did end up getting, I think, as you mentioned earlier,

it's a lot more quantity over quality. So maybe a team could have been desperate and given maybe one of those not grade A prospects, but maybe a B plus or something along those lines as opposed to somebody who's probably best case as second pairing defenseman as the key prospect back. That's just, that's not great. Well, here's what I will say.

I mean, we're kind of, I think we're both pretty lukewarm under return, but what I will say is that I think part of the logic might have been, honestly, that, you know, when you compare a potential first round pick coming back from Colorado, for example, versus this 20-20-first from Arizona, I do think there's a certain appeal to the fact that while, you know, we're going to talk more about the coyotes here in a second, but I still think even with Taylor Hall, it's no sort of slam-dunk certainty that they're going to make the playoffs. And acknowledging that it is a top three protected pick, I think there's a wide

range of outcomes where Arizona, for whatever reason, does miss the playoffs just barely. And that pick doesn't be in the top three. And you wind up getting a really nice asset there in the low teens as a draft pick. So I think there was probably some line of logic to that as opposed to getting the 2021st from Colorado, which would probably be in like the 25 range. And you sort of know what it's going to be. and the ceiling is pretty limited for that. So I think that sort of component of it has been a bit undersold. What I think has been oversold is this conditional third because let me tell you,

I'd say the odds of that becoming a first round pick are, you never want to say never in the NHL. I've certainly learned covering the league over the years that whenever you think something's going to happen, the most kind of outrageous, unpredictable stuff ultimately does wind up happening. But I'd say the odds of that happening are pretty, pretty unlikely, whether it's Arizona going deep or ultimately Taylor Hall winding up signing there this summer.

So I don't think it's fair to view that as a potential first. I think absolute best case scenario at the second round pick, which certainly has value. So it's kind of a mixed bag there where I think one of the assets is a bit overrated, but the other one is potentially underrated by kind of casual observers. Yeah, that's fair. The one caveat, though, that I would say is the Pacific Division kind of sucks. So I think Vegas is a really good team, but Edmonton, obviously, they're very, very top-heavy. Calgary is a mixed bag.

Vancouver is kind of falling off the face of the earth, and San Jose has the worst goaltending in the league. So, like, the odds of Arizona dropping out of the playoffs, I guess, like, you never know in hockey. They can run into some bad luck, but I just don't see too much competition for a playoff spot there. Well, that's fair. I think Vegas is pretty clearly the best team in the division, despite what the records say so far. and there's kind of a wide open spot there for second, and maybe that was John Traika's rationale where you sort of look at the landscape,

and it's like, oh, how often are we going to have a chance to potentially be the second best team in the division here? By the same time, it does feel like it's such a wonky division that it kind of leaves the door open for a bit of unpredictability because while we keep waiting for Edmonton to fall off and they've certainly come back down Earth a little bit, you know, when you have Connor McDavid and Leon Dreisaitle, you're going to win a bit.

a certain number of games. And San Jose, we kind of still keep waiting for them. And Calgary's been playing better of late. And I still think you could make the argument that they're a superior team. So there's a bunch of these kind of like fringe bubble teams that look bad now. But I do think people are just kind of getting into that sort of like superstar mentality when you see a team acquire a player like this. And it's like, oh, well, you know, there are no doubt about her to make the playoffs.

And while they've looked good so far and there's a lot to like there, I still think it isn't exactly a sure thing or an exact science to just like write the coyotes in with permanent marker like I do think there's the door is still open there for some weird shenanigans in the Pacific where they ultimately wind up just missing out yeah that's fair like they don't have a ton of high in talent and maybe if the goaltending dropped off or they ran into an injury or two you never know what could happen so here's my question for you as someone who covers and thinks about prospects a lot more than I do but every time we kind of approach trade season here and we start seeing these types of deals where a seller trades as a

star player for a combination of assets and people start sort of stacking up their favorite teams prospect pipeline versus the others and it does feel like you know your casual fans i'm not sure if i'd say that people in front offices feel this way but it does feel like uh hockey fans on Twitter, tend to overrate prospects, I think, especially these sort of not super high-end sure thing, ones that went high in the draft. Like, when you're talking about some of these guys, it feels like everyone kind of just pencils in their favorite team's sixth through 11th best prospects as guys who are going to make the NHL and contribute.

And we know through historical data that that's not the way it works with young players and there's so much uncertainty. And just for, you know, a guy who gets picked in the third or fourth round to even make make the NHL is ultimately viewed a success. I just feel like when it comes to not surefire prospects, I think people typically tend to overrate them a little bit just because they don't sort of acknowledge how big of a margin for error there is in terms of that guy for whatever reason,

whether it's injury or not just developing properly or something happening off the ice or what have you, never ultimately being a productive player for their NHL team. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of that. I see that on Twitter a lot. But even back to the Haltrade, Nate Schnar, like, I've gotten some tweets like, oh, you're too low on him. He had 100 points in junior a couple years ago.

But, like, at the same time, he was on a powerhouse team, and he was 19 or 20 years old. That's really not that uncommon. I think a lot of people just, you know, kind of pull up hockey DV or elite prospects, and they see some big numbers, and they just assume, like, wow, this guy is really good. And, like, sometimes that is the case. But a lot of times you're looking at an older player who was on a really good. team that was stacking up and that kind of inflates their totals and gives you the perception that the ceiling is a lot higher than it is. Yeah, I definitely. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of,

there's a laundry list of guys who, especially as overagers, in particular, I'd say in the queue, it feels like that league lends itself with some pretty crazy totals for older players. Like, it seems like, just because you've produced a lot in Major Junior, does it mean you're a sure thing by any means? So, you know, let's stick with the devils here and wrap it up from that perspective. I mean, I guess the natural question here is sort of where you go from here because I guess we can kind of put a close to this Taylor Hall era in New Jersey, this chapter in the franchise history. You know, Ray Shero's been there for five years. He was, and you don't want to take away a full credit for him because he did orchestrate the trade. So like he got gift wrapped

the league MEP. I'm ultimately putting that as more of a Peter Shirelli thing as opposed to some stroke of genius by Ray Shiro. I felt like it was a bit more of an opportunistic thing by him. but, you know, he gets get for out of the league MVP. He gets these two first overall picks in Jack Hughes and Eko Hishier. And to show for that, they have one playoff birth and one total playoff win for now. And it seems like it'll be a while before those totals get inflated. So I don't know. It feels like there is a bit of a, I'm not sure how Devils fans feel, but just from the outside,

it's kind of a sort of lukewarm or bitter taste in your mouth because it feels like there was so much promise and so much hoopla, especially after the trade and then the MEP season, and even this summer when they acquired all those assets with minimal risk. And there's just, at the end of the day, it's kind of just like left you hanging a little bit because there wasn't that much to ultimately show for it. Yeah, everyone was definitely very excited for the season. And the way things have gone has a lot of people upset and understandably so. But as doom and gloomous things are right now, like the Devils are 30th in the league,

they fired the coach, the trade of the best player, et cetera, et cetera. I still think they're in pretty good shape moving forward. They have Nico Hesier. They have Jack Hughes. Jasper Brokvus has shown flashes. Jasper Brad is definitely a steal on the six round a couple years ago. Ty Smith looks like he could be a really good player.

And they have potentially another top five pick coming this June, as well as another first round pick on top of that. So as disappointing as things are right now, they have some really good young players on the team already, and there's going to be several more coming very soon. So I think they're still in pretty good shape moving forward. Well, and as easy it is to sort of, you know, overlook or undervalue, you know,

overlooking Eishier, for example, or make fun of Jack Hughes's struggles early on. Like, they do have, I think we'd agree to building blocks down the middle there to start off with, so it's not like they're necessarily kind of, you know, starting back from square one. And what I would say is aside from those draft picks you mentioned and that, you know, their own potential top five pick is going to be a very valuable asset. They have a bunch of these other guys, whether it's Zajak or Palmieri or Simmons or, you know, even Blake Coleman, where this is kind of like older players in their late 20s that don't have a lot of term left on their deal and they could potentially swing them at some point between now and the deadline for even more assets.

And aside from the P.K. Suban contract, I really, when you know, when you look at their, uh, financial. financial books, they don't really have too much future money tied up in depreciating assets. And I'd say that's sort of the biggest saving grace here where you can get another kind of crack at this where you, I know this summer didn't work out and that maybe might scare people off from viewing a lot of cap space as a big selling point that they could improve their team via that route. But we've seen time and time again that, you know, just having that sort of financial flexibility to strike when the opportunity presents itself either via trade or via free agency, is a really valuable asset.

And so for the devil's moving forward, they have a lot of that where I think that's why people like you and I like their summer beyond just the players they added. It was like they were incurring pretty minimal risk because they weren't, you know, tacking on all of these later years for guys in their 30s. It felt like it was sort of this like short one to two year gamble that they could potentially strike hot.

And if not, they could pivot and act accordingly. Yeah, like they didn't trade any like core pieces or like mortgage. the future to try and, you know, take a step forward this year. It was kind of like seconds, thirds, maybe C, B level prospects. They didn't give up anything like they would have you be like, ooh, maybe they shouldn't have done that. So like as bad as things kind of blew up in their face a little bit right now, they still

are in a really good shape to, you know, kind of try and take another kick at the can, be it next summer or the year after. Like they have lots of cap space. Nico Hescher, I think is undisputed Topline Center already. Jack Hughes should be the top six guys soon or later. I know his point totals don't pop off the page just yet, but his underlying numbers are actually pretty decent. And if you watch him,

he seems to be getting more and more comfortable each passing game and week. So I think they're still in pretty good shape. Yeah, I think that's fair to say, man. All right, let's take a quick break here to hear from a sponsor, and then we're going to talk about the coyotes and haul and really kind of get into it from those runs. Sponsoring today's episode of the HockeyPedio guest is Seekek. Getting tickets to events can feel awfully difficult, but it doesn't need to be because

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So download the Seekicap today and use promo code PDO for $10 off your first purchase. That's promo code PDO for $10 off your first purchase. Now let's get back to the show. all right um let's do the coyotes here first before we talk more about the taylor hall angle of this i guess you kind of those two go hand in hand at this point but um you know from the coyote's perspective the way i view this and you can tell me what you think after it's i think the trade's important for a number of reasons i think on the ice the fit is very obvious um you know they're defensively great under rick tockit they've been one of the stingiest teams in the league they're right up there

with the islanders and the stars and the bruin's in terms of all of these defensive metrics They're 29th and 515 scoring this year. They're 25th overall. And I think for them to be taken seriously as a team that's beyond a cute story and can actually make some noise come to postseason, it was pretty imperative for them to improve their offense and actually become at least viable closer to league average there and pose some sort of a threat.

But I think the bigger story here for me is that this trade is important because it kind of signals this another step for the Coyote's franchise towards sort of legitimacy. are sort of showing that they're the real deal in terms of being willing to spend the type of money it takes to win under this new ownership they have. You know, they go out this summer. They trade for Phil Kessel. Now they trade for Taylor Hall. They've made these substantial investments in guys like OEL and Keller and Schmaltz and so on and so forth.

And, you know, you look at their books now. I think the casual fan wouldn't really appreciate the fact that they still have that Marian Hose, that kind of shell ghost contract. that's artificially inflating their cap number, but they're spending some real money. I think it's like 73 or 74 million in real dollars on their team this year. And I think that goes a long way towards changing the perception around the league because it was really easy to make fun of the coyotes and their attendance

and sort of how it's not this traditional hockey market and how it will never succeed. But I think as we've seen with teams like the hurricanes recently, I think the lightning for sure, you look at their attendance numbers and you look at just how people think and talk about them and winning games is huge also having uh exciting talent that gets gives people a reason to talk about their team gives people a reason to watch games buy jerseys fill up seats goes a long way and so you're going to have to win to keep the attention of those fans and keep their wallets open and paying and keeping them as paying customers but i think for the time being for the coyotes this is like a massive step just in terms of how

um people around the league view them from like oh okay hey, like, they're really serious about this and isn't just kind of a cute story. Yeah, like, when a lot of people think of the coyotes, they're like, oh, they have all these retired players on their books, and they have no fans, and they overpay all these guys that some common fans haven't even heard of, like, on long-term contracts. And they're just kind of, like, pointing and laughing at everything they do, even if, in reality, the moves actually makes sense.

So I think now that they actually have a competitive team, like, why not go for it and, you know, throw their hat in the ring. Like, Taylor Hall is, we saw what he could do a couple of years ago. He kind of dragged the devils. I think they scored 44 or 43% of the goals when he wasn't on the ice, and he still dragged them into a playoff spot, you know, even though they lost in five, a few of those games against Tampa Bay were competitive. Like, he's a, he's one of the few guys who, you know, can win games by himself.

So I think it makes sense, you know, if he's available to just go get him. It's crazy. you mentioned that stat. I did see that passed around online where this is Taylor Hall's 10th season and that was the the devil's had 44.9% of the

5-on-5 goal share with him off the ice that year in 2017, 18 when he won the MVP and they made the playoffs. That was the career high for him. So he's never been on a team that's had at least 45% of the 5-on-5 goal share without him doing the heavy lifting for them. And so as crazy as it

is to say, I really do think there's, I mean, it's almost not even an argument. Like this coyote's team he's coming on to is the best, or at least the most kind of well-rounded team he's ever been on in his 10-year career. Yeah, like I honestly feel bad for the guy because anytime something bad happens or gets traded or his team missed the playoffs, they'll be like, ha-ha, Taylor Hall, he never wins anything. He can't be that kid.

And he kind of just gets dragged through the mud because his team's always stuck when he's not on the ice. so I'm just really happy that he can finally be on a team that's at least fairly solid when he's not on the ice, clearly because the counties are doing well and they just got him. But I'm just happy that he can go to a place where he doesn't have to be relied upon to do absolutely everything or kind of just get made fun of because the team's not good enough.

Yes, I mean, 10 seasons, 9 coaches, 5 playoff games, five first overall picks for the teams he's been on. So it's a, you know, it's, it's funny, but at the same time for a player of his caliber, it's pretty clear that the reason those stats are the way they are, it's not his fault. It's sort of the situation he's been a part of. And I wouldn't call this coyote's team he's on a juggernaut by any means, but there's a certain level of like baseline competence to them that is a, you know, is a far cry from what he's been part of in the past.

And, you know, for this coyote's team, it's interesting because, um, they could easily be that two seed but they also as as we talked about earlier i think are hardly a sure thing to make the playoffs so all all taylor hall jokes aside about him being a sure thing for our first overall picks like that was also a pretty uh a pretty savvy little move for them to top three protect that just in case because as we've seen with uh the senators uh in the mat duches trade it ultimately didn't wind up coming back to hurt them too bad because it was a fourth overall pick and they didn't wind up winning the lottery but uh you never know what's going to happen and how quickly your fate could change. So it was pretty huge of them to at least the top three protect that

pick. Yeah, it makes sense to give themselves a little breathing room just in case things do blow up. But I think the coyotes will be okay. They have great goaltending. They have very good defense. As you mentioned earlier, the one issue, or the two issues, I guess, were five- or five-five goal scoring and possession. And even though Hall's shooting 5% or something at 5-5 this year, the lowest of his career. He's still very productive in that game state, and he's also an excellent possession driver. You can carry the puck through Neutral Zone,

possession entries, created for his teammates, all that stuff. So I think he's kind of like the perfect fit based off the Cowardy's weaknesses, and then where the coyotes are strong, they're very strong. So I think the team's in pretty good shape right now. Yeah, I mean, it kind of speaks volumes

about both Hall and how good he is and also the coyotes and how people they were offensive. before this that at the time of the trade he had played five fewer games than the coyotes he was shooting 5.5% and he's playing on the 29th ranked power play in new jersey and uh his 25 points still would have would have led the coyotes so he clearly becomes the guy that they can kind of funnel the offense through and um i think there's you know you can view it two ways first for the fit for him on this team rick talkett system is clearly defensively oriented and it's a low event and and I think his numbers might not ultimately,

scoring numbers might not look much better than they have been so far because, you know, it's not really conducive to this kind of high event, high volume offensive output, as I'm sure a guy like Phil Kessel would vouch for so far this season. But at the same time, what I've noticed is, you know, the coyotes do really like to turn defense into offense in terms of attacking off the rush. And once they do get the puck and they keep everything to the outside, but once they do finally retrieve it,

they really like to create in terms of that North South game. And that's going to kind of blend in nicely with the way Hall plays, where he's still, despite the decreased production from my money, right up there with Jack Eichol and clearly McKinnon and McDavid and so on and so forth, in terms of guys who just taking the puck from their zone and quickly making something happen on the other end of the ice, there's very few guys that can do what he can do even at this point of his career. So I think that's going to be a pretty nice little fit there stylistically from

how he likes to attack and what the coyotes like to do with their personnel. Yeah, I actually don't think it's going to be a massive adjustment for him because like when he played for the Devils, when they made the playoffs a couple years ago, they were a pretty low event team as well. They maybe weren't as strong defensively as the coyotes are right now, but they were kind of a team that would be hemmed in their end a little bit and kind of do some damage off the rush. And obviously Hall is very good at that.

So I think he's going to fit in nicely with the coyotes. Well, he's going to attract so much defensive attention. and I think, you know, so far he started off in game one playing with Christian Dvorak and Phil Kessel, but I think there's going to be a kind of trickle-down effect that we don't always consider in terms of making life easier for guys like Clayton Keller and Nick Schmaltz, where all of a sudden they're not, you know, I thought they were kind of in over their heads and being asked to do too much in terms of like being the number one scoring unit for a team that's good in trying to win games and compete for a playoff spot. And now, you know, when you get Holland there, he's clearly going to try. track the defensive game plan from opposing teams. He's going to get the other team's top pair and top defensive unit whenever they can get

them out there. And that opens a door for guys like Keller and Schmaltz to kind of feast on more inferior competitions. So I think the production hall is going to bring to the table is one thing. But the more kind of low key, but still equally important aspect to this is what he does for the other guys on the depth chart because he kind of bumps them down to spots that are probably more suited for their individual skill sets. Yeah, and one further addition to that point as well is the coyotes kind of like to balance their line.

They don't stack Keller Kessel and Hall, let's say, on the top line and have not much left throughout. They kind of try and balance it and put one or two quality pieces on each line. So having Hall and, like you said, pushing each guy down another notch and allow them to face off for competition and more favorable zone starts and that sort of thing, I think that'll really help them. I think they really need to get Phil Kessel going here. I mean, he's, his minus 7.5 goals above replacement is the worst amongst all qualified players on evolving wild. And it's funny enough because right there with him are some of the more notable names from this summer, including BKCoban and Tyler Myers and even Jake Gardner. So it was a real illustrious class of players being moved this summer. But, I mean, he's got the one 515 goal and 104, 515 shot attempts.

he had like 120 minutes there when I was looking at what was going on this year with him, where he was playing with Carl Soderberg and Lawson Krause at 5-1-5. So I think he certainly needs to be playing better, and I think we should maybe adjust our expectations now that he's not playing on that loaded Penguins power play. But at the same time, playing with a guy like Hall, and I think we already saw that in game one against San Jose, where there was some passing between them going east-west through the Royal Road, Rural was like, I just don't think they really had a player of Hall's capabilities and sort of

dynamic nature that could play off of Kessel that way, as he had with certain guys in Pittsburgh. So I think, like, this is going to do wonders beyond just the sort of psychological element of, like, actually having a guy who can sort of run with Kessel and make plays happen in the offensive zone. And clearly, if they can get him going and get more out of him, that's going to go a long way towards boosting that overall offense as well. Yeah, Hall should definitely help. He's a talented goal score himself, despite this early season struggles. But I would definitely say he's a better creator and facilitator for his teammates than

he is to score himself. So having somebody like Kessel on his line, he should definitely be able to boost him and get him back on track. Was there anything else on the coyotes or sort of their angle to this that we should get to before we kind of die? more in on on hall himself and where he goes from that from from this point um i would just say that i think they did really well not trading um soda storm or hayton for hall in the hall deal like i know you don't want to give up a player like that for a rental but we're talking about a player

who recently won an MVP so for them to you know give up kevin ball as the key prospect like uh i just i think they did really well there that was the funniest part during the weekend before the trade actually happened where Elliot Freeman reported that the two teams were really haggling over Kevin Ball. And it felt like, uh, it felt like John Jayca kind of Jedi mind tricked Ray Shera a little bit where like he diverted his attention away from Soderstrom and he was just making Kevin Ball seem like the prize asset here. And he's like, oh, I don't know if I can move him. And then Shero just completely forgot about the other guys and keyed in on trying to get Ball to like view it as kind of like a psychological victory that he got the guy that John Jacob didn't want to give him. Like,

the entire element of that playing out and how that was like sticking point for like 48 hours was one of the most puzzling parts of this for me. Yeah, I was almost joking on Twitter like about how I thought Kevin Ball might be included as a key piece, but I didn't think it would get to the point where, you know, they'd have to like hangle over him like he was like, like he was like a cornerstone franchise changer and like getting him involved just like makes everything perfect. Yeah, I love that. A team who hasn't made the playoffs since 2012 and is like bottom five in scoring. He's like, I don't know if we can trade this this 19-year-old

defensive defenseman for a guy who won league MVP two years ago. It's a pretty tough sell for us. So the fact that John Jacob pulled that off was pretty impressive. Yeah, he did well. All right, well, so from the hall element of this, I'd say that I guess it could have been worse for him. Like, listen, clearly we can't evaluate his numbers in isolation

without considering the circumstances. I thought you made a really good point when you were writing about the trade before it happened, kind of using the analogy of like just a person working in an office and it's like you know you're going into this better job and you have all this to look forward to,

but you're still kind of asked to work these menial hours for your current gig. And it's like any regular human being would be sort of just kind of playing out the string. And, you know, in professional sports, you can never really sort of fully check out while you're playing because then you leave yourself open to injury and all these guys are incredibly competitive and all that.

So not saying that Hall wasn't giving it as all by any means, but it was a pretty rough situation in terms of everything just kind of unraveling around him and this mess and then he's healthy and they're asking him to sit out. And it was all just kind of a whole ordeal. And so when you look at his production, beyond just the fact that he's like a guy who's like a 10 point whatever percent shooter throughout his career who's shooting 5.5 now. And if he just had been converting it as career rate, he'd have 12 goals and 31 points and 30 games, and no one would think twice about it. But just beyond that kind of natural regression, I do think there's like a psychological regression as well, where all of a sudden now he's in this competitive environment.

This team acquired him as kind of propping him up as similar to what New Jersey did when they got him as the face of the franchise, they're selling all these Kachina Hall jerseys. Everyone's excited about it. It's a new fresh story. He potentially has a chance to not only compete in a playoff series, but potentially even win a playoff series for the first time in his career. and so the system itself isn't great for like boosting his numbers and making him look even more attractive as a max free agent come this summer. But just in terms of going from a dire situation to a pretty competitive one, I do think it's a pretty good spot for Hall to be in.

Yeah, he's definitely got to be excited because as you mentioned, like the Devils were a disaster this year. They lost lots of games. Hall liked John Hines quite a bit. He was fired. So like losing your boss who helps you win MVP, like that has to some. suck too. As much as you want to be a professional, it's hard to, you know, give your all when you know you're going to be leaving and, like, the team might not even want your all. Like, the devil's losses help more than wins at this point. So him giving 110% to make plays and

try to help them win games doesn't even do them any good anyways. So going to a playoff team with lots of structure, good goal toning, good defense, some big names, some championship pedigree, like that's got to feel good for him, especially after. you know, winning one playoff game in I think 10 years now. Like he's, he's had no playoff success at all. He's never been on a good team or a very good team. So he's got to be thrilled. It might not be the best, the best landing spot, but it's still a good one.

Yeah, I mean, if he'd gone to Colorado, for example, just beyond the fact that I do think they have a better chance to compete for his talent cup, obviously there's like that kind of high octane offense and sort of a run-and-gun system that I'm sure would have done wonders for maximizing his talent and making his into offensive production look great. But I think for him, I don't know if you agree with this, but it does feel like for the most part, people generally allow in the league, you're going to have your critics online that are like, oh, this guy's never won anything. He's overrated, whatever, blah, blah, blah. But I think people running teams typically agree that he's an impact player and is going to be paid

accordingly this summer. I don't think there's anything in terms of score. and goals and producing points that he could have done the remainder of the season that would really tangibly affect his payday this summer. I think probably the biggest thing for him is going to be playing out the rest of the season and looking and staying healthy and showing that there's no reason for concern, beyond your typical concern, for signing him to a five, six, potentially even seven-year deal this summer at big money as he enters his late 20s. So I think just it doesn't really matter where he's playing, I think, more so for him in terms of the fallout moving forward for the rest of his career. It's just a matter of controlling his own business as opposed to worrying necessarily about what his counting stats look like.

Absolutely. I know teams are starting to be a little smarter in free agency with giving massive contract to players in the late 20s and early 30s. But at the end of the day, everyone wants to win. And if Tate Hall is sitting in free agency, you're going to make a push for him. So as long as he doesn't suffer a serious knee injury or something, I know that's something that he's done with in the past. I think he should have no problem getting a massive contract. What do you think he's going to age?

Like, I'm really curious about that. I mean, we don't really know for sure. I mean, if you're comparing him to players that have come before him, like I think he's a much better bet. You're right. Teams have sort of wised up to like, especially after that summer of 2016. And I think, like, you just cannot get away with signing guys like Millan Lou J. Chen. uh, Andrew Ladd and Kyleuk Pozo and so on and so forth with those body types to, uh, deals well into

their 30s, but, you know, Hall does rely quite a bit on his speed and his skating. And as he enters his 30s, I am curious to see sort of what's going to happen with his effectiveness. Because we haven't really seen a dip yet, both from the eye test and also from the production in terms of like shot generation and so on and so forth. He's been drawing fewer penalties than he did in the past. I'm not sure what to make of that. But I'm really curious to see, what his age 29 to 32 seasons actually wind up looking like. Yeah, he's a hard one to project because, as you said, he relies on his speed. That's a big, big thing for him.

But at the same time, he's extremely smart and he's so good at finding the open lanes and changing angles and all those sorts of things that I think he could still make plays, even if the speed does fall off a little bit. I'm pretty sure it was Jonathan Willis, who wrote a piece about 10.000. Taylor Hall and it more or less said that the team should be comfortable betting on him long term that he's one of the better bets as far as recent big big name free agents to continue being productive into their early and mid-30s

but I guess we'll just have to wait and see well yeah I guess the one positive about the and you can kind of it is a double-edged sword because it's like on the one hand his you know he had a couple really healthy years there where he was playing in the high 70s. Last year was a bit more of a recent aberration for him. But especially during his career, he was good for missing at least like 10, 15, 20 games. And so he does only have like around 600-ish NHL games on a Zodometer so far with very few

sort of physically taxing playoff games as well. So it's like he will be turning 29 early next season and he does have that injury history. But you're right. I think he, you don't really see him. take contact similar to our temi paderran i'd say you don't really see him to kind of take unnecessary contact or put extra miles on his body uh where he can avoid it and so you never know uh with health and uh lower body injuries how that's going to happen as he gets into his 30s but i i feel pretty confident about um you know biting the bullet on maybe not a seven year deal but like years i think years

one two three and four and maybe even five are going to be just fine and ultimately if you're a team that he's competing right now and you think, you know, he tangibly moves a needle for you to compete for a Stanley Cup, I think you're ultimately going to take that sort of trade off where you try to make the most of it for those handful of years and then deal with the repercussions after, especially acknowledging that, you know, there could be another compliance buyout clause or so on and so forth, or the entire kind of cap landscape could change by the time those years kick in. So I think we're, as much as teams have wised up to not giving those long-term deals, do think there's going to be teams lining up this summer to happily take on that risk.

For sure. A long-term deal for New Jersey, for example, might not make sense because by the time they're good, Hall would be 31, 32, like, kind of starting to decline. But if you're contending right now and you have the money to get Taylor Hall on your team without giving up any player off your roster or any high-end prospects or whatever, like you have to do it. Well, what are, okay, so what are the most logical, uh, we don't want to get to, ahead of ourselves here and who knows for all we know uh you could love it in arizona they can make a long run and he winds up staying there but what projecting forward and looking ahead to this summer what do you think are the most uh logical landing spots are any

that really intrigue you that are actually plausible and not just being like oh yeah like you know Tampa bay should just sign up to this mega deal like like let's actually think rationally here in terms of team that have the need um have the financial flexibility or the means to make it happen and for who it makes sense from a kind of contention competitiveness window yeah there are a couple that stand out to me um call that it was obviously the obvious one they have tons of lead talent play fast love the score they have they have some new contracts kicking in soon but they should still be in a pretty good shape financially where they could bring him on and the other team that i actually it's kind of a dark horse team i like is

Montreal, they play fast, they dominate possession, they're a very good team. The kind of one thing they're missing is high end offensive talent, someone who can finish, someone who can set up great eight chances for their teammates. And I think Hall would be a really nice fit there.

He kind of just fixes their weaknesses. And I think that's kind of like a sneaky team that I could see getting in the mix. Yeah, well, we don't know how involved they were, but I thought Montreal was a very logical trade destination form as well. They were kind of keeping this cap space open this season and keeping their roster space open as well. And it felt like they were up to something.

And who knows, between now and the trade deadline, they still might be. But yeah, they're one of those teams that's kind of like undersized and plays fast. And their five-on-five numbers are great. But when you think about it, especially as we approach the end of the season and the postseason, it's like, you know, as great as Brendan Gallagher is, for example, they don't have that kind of star that can really just drive the bus by themselves and can make

everything happen without a certain system or a certain complementary talent around them. And so they don't have that kind of superstar. So that would be an interesting fit. I do, you said Colorado is your first team? Yeah, yeah. I'm really curious because I think it would be a massive no-go for them to pay him the years he wants. and I'm sure he can get from some of these other teams. I'm really fascinated to see whether they could get creative.

I think for him he would probably given his injury history. I think he'd be smart to not risk a short-term deal and just take his massive payday and get as much job security as you can. But man, just like selfishly, it would be so fascinating to see, because we know this summer that they tried with both Panarin and with Pavelsky in terms of front-loading their deals and giving them a bunch of money over a short period of time. And I think they're pretty wary of tacking on too many future years with McCarra's contract coming, with McKinnon, with Landis College with Renton already being paid.

But for the time being in the short term, like, if they could get something done over a one, two or maybe even three year window, that would be like the highest upside. But I just can't really see that happening from, you know, I'm sure his agent would be like pulling his hair out being like, come on, man, you've got to sign that seven-year deal so he can get that nice commission. Yeah, sorry. I don't think he'd get a seven-year deal there. I know the apps are very analytically inclined, but if they could get them shorter term, I think they would definitely do it.

Well, speaking of analytically inclined, the Florida Panthers and Dale Tallinn, I mean, you know, we've already seen that they're certainly willing to back up the brinkstruck and throw caution to the wind with tacking out of future years and free agency with what day to the summer. And, you know, conveniently it works out that. Mike Kaufman and Hattanov are both UFAs, and that clears up about 9 million or so in capspace plus two top six wing spots. And by all accounts, they were really one of the last teams in on him for this trade before ultimately bowing out because they just didn't like the prospect of giving up

what it would take without getting him to extend. And so I imagine that in terms of teams, that would be willing to pay the absolute premium for him and throw all caution to the wind, it does feel like the Panthers are right up there at top of the list in terms of teams that would be willing to kind of pull out all the stops, all the stops, sorry, and make it happen. So I could really see that.

And I'm not sure how I feel about that fit, but it would certainly be interesting to see him thrown into the mix with that, you know, with that combination of Barkov and Huberto and everything they have going on in Sunrise. Yeah, when you gave me your homework, I actually wrote down Florida as one of the teams, but I decided to go to Colorado, Montreal and said.

They give $10 million a year to a goaltender in his 30s, so I definitely don't think they would have any problem paying hall if they have the chance. Yeah. Well, okay, here's another one. Here's Buffalo. So they have, they're in an interesting spot financially

where they have a ton of money coming off this summer, and especially with contracts that, you know, in terms of projecting future caps space a lot of the time, it's like, yeah, these guys are coming off of books, like Florida, for example, but I think that if they missed out on Taylor Hall, they'd be perfectly comfortable, especially bringing back a guy like Datternav,

whereas I think Hoffman's going to walk. But, you know, for sometimes for these teams, it's like, yeah, they have a lot of future cap space, but they have contracts coming off with guys that they're going to want to pay again. Whereas with Buffalo, whether it's like, I think it was like Sabotka, you know, some of these like Scandella,

they have a defense, certain defensemen coming off the books where they have a ton of cap space being clear this summer. And I'm not sure if you would, play him with Jack Eichol because both guys are such an aggressive puck carriers. I'm not sure statistically how that fits. But, you know, they need a second center. But Hall essentially, for all intensive purposes, is a center in terms of how he controls possession, how he plays down the middle of the ice.

So I think if you just brought him in and you had him driving his own second line along with Eichael, that would be really interesting because we've seen so far this season that Ikel has really taken his game to the point where I think he's in the mix with McKeddon to McDavid for the MVP and he's been just out of his mind the past 17 games during this point streak he's on but beyond him i mean they're they're like right i think they're the worst team in a league when jack i goes not on the ice and so uh those two things like it's tough to reconcile that and eventually they're going to have to take that next step and have something to show for um everything they've done over the past couple years so i'm not sure how interested it'd be or how interested

hall would be personally but that seems like a logical fit from both a need and a uh a compensation perspective. Yeah, if I'm Hall, I don't know how high Buffalo would be on the list personally, but the idea of having Eichael and Ryanhard as a duo on the top line with Oliveson and then Skinner and Hall on the second line, like that would be scary. Yeah, that'd be really fun. What would be the team like highest on the unintentional comedy scale? It would have to be Edmonton, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, go back to Edmonton. Oh, that'd be so funny to see all of the mainstream media. They're all. walk back their comments and just pretend like 2016 or 2017 or whatever never happened like that'd be

just that'd be classic but at the same time like selfishly for him it's i mean i guess you know if you actually similar to what we were just talking about with buffalo and ickel if you had him driving a second line like that top six would be uh pretty potent but at the same time uh you know we just spent so much time at the start of this podcast talking about uh how futile the situations he's been in have been and how little playoff success he's had. And I do like, that's why something like Colorado was just like, it'd be nice to see him be in a permanent spot with just consistency and competence and a team that has run the right way.

So I don't know. But, yeah, Edmonton certainly seems to be interested in him. I was actually kind of surprised they didn't make a stronger offer in the trade market with for him. Yeah, me as well. I thought they could have put together a good package for him. Like they have Poi Arvi, maybe someone like Caleb Jones. I don't think they have their first, but they could have put together something interesting.

Yeah. They do have their first, actually. Yeah, it seems like they didn't want to trade that first. But yeah, with Piliari's rights, I mean, obviously he couldn't come over this season, but he'd be a really interesting asset moving forward for a team. And, you know, they actually have suddenly, like, you know, there used to be a joke that they just couldn't have any defensemen, but all of a sudden, they've drafted all of these interesting guys who are either in the minors or playing for their team right now.

So, yeah, I thought they could have really gone for it. but it was pretty clear the fact that they didn't or they haven't yet that maybe they're more rational about where they stand in the league's hierarchy than maybe some of their fans are. Yeah, well, that makes sense, I guess, because at the end of the day, they have like Zach Cash and Alex Chesson and Sam Gawney and all these guys playing regular top six minutes for them. So got to be smarter about these things.

Yeah, Alex Jasson is still on the top hierarchy, but yeah, amazing stuff. All right, well, Todd, this was a blast, man. let's let's get out of here. I'm going to let you plug some stuff where can people check out what you're up to and all that good stuff. So plug that away. All right.

I do pretty much daily Devils and Flames stuff at HockeyBuzz. I do NHL Daily Fantasy at EliteFantasy.com. I think that's pretty much it for public. I do my cloned of rockets work, but I don't think that does anyone any good. Well, where can people check you out online like on terms of Twitter? Oh, just Todd Cordell, T-O-D-D-C-O-D-E-L, and if you hit me up, I'll be sure to get back to you.

All right, man, well, this was a blast. I'm glad we got to do this. The one good thing that came from the Hall of Trade is that we got to talk for like 25 minutes about the New Jersey Devil. So this is exciting, and yeah, let's make sure to do this again sometime soon. Yeah, it was fun. Hopefully next time we can talk about some better things going on in New Jersey. All right, Matt, chat soon. All right, sounds good.

The Hockey PEDEOCast of Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at Soundcloud.com slash hockeypediocast.