The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 330: Holiday Scuttlebutt

Episode Date: December 27, 2019

2:00 The teams that were bidding on Taylor Hall6:00 This year's strange class of rental players 9:15 Trading stars in their 'pre-agent' season 13:30 How aggressive should the Avalanche be? 19:00 The wide open Western Conference 24:00 The Blackhawks as third party facilitators 34:00 Sharks have backed themselves into corner45:00 Teams most likely to make panic tradesSee acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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and joining me, making his triumphant return after many, many moons of not being on the show. It's my good buddy, Chris Johnston. Chris, Merry Christmas, happy holidays. What's going on, men? It's good to finish off this decade with you because we had lots of good shows over the time and enjoying getting back. Yeah, I'm excited about it. It's quite the time in this season, obviously.

We had a pretty hectic sort of end before the holiday break, and then now we've got the holiday trade freeze, obviously Christmas and all the goings on. world juniors and i i wanted to get you on the show now because it feels like um we're at an interesting crossroads in the season where we have enough of a sample for all these teams for them to know in their hierarchy where they stand how good they are where their flaws are what they need to address and improve but there's also enough time left where um there's not that they're not backs aren't completely up against the wall there's still whatever six weeks or so until the trade deadline and there's time for teams to send feelers out and let things percolate so i thought you and i could

kind of get into some of the goings-on behind-the-scenes or the behind-the-scenes scuttlebutt or whatever situation's worth monitoring and get into that. But I think the most logical starting point for us is the big domino that fell before the break and it was the Taylor Hall trade. Yeah, and that's a weird one. I mean, normally we don't have that significant trade at this point in the season.

And, you know, I had some ramifications, I guess, around the league just because he is such a notable player and the fact that New Jersey was willing to move them early. Yeah, whenever something like that happens, there's going to be reverberations felt around the league. And I think the most interesting fallout for me beyond the obvious effect on the coyotes, Taylor Hall is going to have and how this impacts his impending free agency is. It felt like there was a lot of teams in on him, and that's not surprising considering the caliber of player he is. But, you know, whether it was the Colorado Avalanche or will lump in the Panthers, the Islanders, maybe even the flames there. There was all sorts of rumblings or reports around teams that looked like they were.

definitely in the mix they were certainly interested in shaking things up and adding obviously a former MVP to their ranks and instantly improving their offense so i'm kind of curious where teams how close those teams really were because we never really kind of hear about that i think we heard that the panthers for example pulled themselves out of the race when they realized they couldn't talk extension with him and they didn't want to trade for a pure rental like that i given the price but just how close things were like why the devils ultimately went that route because certainly people like myself when they looked at the return thought, hmm, for a former MVP, it feels like you probably should get more than a bunch of kind of magic beans despite the intrigue of Kevin Ball

as a prospect and what that first rounder could be if the coyotes don't make the playoffs. But given the caliber of the player and all the teams that were interested, was it just the matter of like New Jersey had kind of an urgency, especially when they decided to pull him from the lineup that they just wanted to end a saga and they were happy with what they got? Or do you think this was ultimately the best thing that was out there for them considering his free agent status? Well, they were certainly betting on the fact that the return wasn't going to get better, no matter what you or I might think of it,

that had they waited until closer to February 24th, the fact that the market might shrink on him and that they wouldn't be able to get as many pieces as they ended up getting in the deal with the coyotes. And, you know, I think that there's even a practical aspect to it and that there's some risk in playing him if he gets injured, those types of things is pretty clear what direction. double season is going and they made minds up that before the holiday trade freeze kicked in,

you know, somewhere in early December they decided basically they were going to have, you know, almost three weeks to move them. You know, when it got down to that final week, of course, they scratched them from the two games and we're trying to create the market there. You know, I don't know how many teams at that point were left. You know, it sounded like Florida came in quickly and left around that period. I think Calgary was was in it pretty close to the end. you know, Edmonton was involved

prior to that. I think, you know, one of the interesting things the Devils did here is that, you know, often when a GM is going to move a player, you know, he lets his colleagues know what type of return it's going to take to get the player. You know, from my understanding in this case, you know, one of the things very sure is invited teams to make their best offer but didn't show his hand or didn't say it has to be a prospect deal

or, you know, I need another player that makes a similar salary back. I think that he was open to letting all those teams kind of dream up the package that they thought would work that might get things going. And it obviously took it from there and got serious with Arizona at the end. It kind of reminds me when you're doing like a fantasy football draft or a fantasy draft of any sorts, especially if it's an auction. And you're like, you know, a player comes up on the board. And then you're like, you see the bidding going for them and it's going. And it gets to a point where you realize that it might be a bit too rich for you.

and you see all the other players that are left on the board, and you're like, oh, I'm just going to kind of let this one go and kind of circle back later and see if I can get a similar player. But the issue for me with that line of thinking here, and certainly between now and the end of February, various situations can change, and a player that previously wasn't available can become available. But this year's rental class or trade market is really a different one

than ones we've seen in the past, because part of what makes it so strange is it really feels like a lot of these impending, UFAs that are legitimate needle movers that could come in and make an immediate impact on teams are already on teams that are going for it and will likely keep them, whether it's Nicholas Baxter or Alex Petrangelo or Tori Krug, Tyson Berry, so on and so forth. And so it limits the market quite a bit, I think. I wonder if teams do get desperate, whether we'll start seeing, you know, more exorbitant

prices paid for guys who have more years left on their deal and sort of untraditional trade deadline deals like that. because in terms of the pure rental class, beyond, I'd say, Chris Kreider, there really isn't a forward out there that I think can legitimately make any sort of type of impact that Mark Stone made last year for Vegas or Taylor Hall is going to make for the coyotes because as much as I love a guy like Mike Hoffman or, you know, I'm all respect to John Gabriel Pajel in the year he's having in Ottawa. I think those guys are clearly a step below in terms of their effectiveness, productivity,

especially offensively, and what they're actually going to bring to a team. the trades for them as a rental. Right. I mean, essentially you're talking about depth pieces. And, you know, those guys will have some utility for other teams. And, you know, I think Pajot in particular will have a lot of interest, but it's for teams looking to play them on their third or fourth line versus, you know, the Taylor Hall conversation.

I think that, you know, one of the reasons so many teams were involved is it allowed them to almost reimagine what they're doing, you know, with their team in season, which, again, doesn't really come along too much in the way the salary cap has sort of dictated the business of the league. the last few years. And, you know, a team like Edmonton recognized, for example, that they need secondary scoring beyond their top guns. I think we all see that.

And, you know, Hall offered them, at least in theory, the potential to totally remake a second line or create where they have a top six that looks, you know, pretty different than they have right now. That's only one player acquisition. You know, I went to you, Crider will now probably be the biggest player on the market that moves before the 24th, assuming that's what the Rangers elect to do with them. As we're talking now, they're kind of kicked around a little bit, maybe where they could talk themselves into a playoff run.

But, you know, basically if we project out where I think where this will probably end up is that he'll be really the only other player that I think can, that teams can at least think, all right, this really dramatically changes the top half of our roster. And so, you know, it kind of doesn't bode well for us in the rumor business, you know, leading up to the trade deadline. I don't think that this sets up, at least as we're talking right now, is a particularly sexy, you know, couple months of transactions ahead. And, you know, you're right. That kind of is part of, it's an important part or contextual point in the whole discussions is that I think most of these teams would have recognized this as well while they were having discussions with New Jersey. Yeah, well, there's one thing about us as media members.

We can make it work. We'll talk up Tyler Defoli as the next big thing. I'm sure that we'll have no issues with that. Yeah, it's... Well, no, and then you get in the number eight Ds. We'll be getting headlines and everything, too. Oh, yeah, definitely. Well, I think, you know, as an interesting thought exercise here,

I wonder whether we're going to see, like, a legitimate shift in how teams do business moving forward from the perspective of dealing with rentals and with, you know, if you're a team that is on the way up, let's say, or on the bubble, you're kind of realized that your competitive window is probably a couple of years down the line and you have a player who's not necessarily a disgruntled star by any means, but, you know, their timeline and when they're hitting free agency might not line up with yours as a franchise, whether you're better off being more proactive and actually looking ahead and dealing with this a year. year before the free agency comes. I know like, you know, Bill Simmons on his podcast has been

talking a lot about the NBA and sort of how there's this effect of pre-agency now where these star players are trying to force their, force their team's hand a year before and go to certain destinations. And, you know, for NHL teams, after you see what someone like Matt Duchain, for example, went for where the, where the Avalanche were able to get this ridiculous combination of assets because they dealt him while he still had a year plus. on his deal and so a team like the senators was able to talk themselves into it being more than just a rental and especially you know if you're a smart team and you're looking around and you can potentially take advantage of a situation like the avalanche did with ottawa where it's like you're

kind of skeptical of how good that team actually is and maybe a year or two from now their pick is going to wind up being really good i do wonder if it's more advantageous to do that especially after you see the underwhelming returns that mark stone went for last year where you get you know a fine prospect and eric brandstam and a second round pick but nothing that'll necessarily completely change your franchise and and now with what new jersey got for hall like considering the players involved in their caliber and and sort of their name brand around the league and then sizing it up with what they got in return it feels like there's an imbalance now where teams aren't getting nearly enough value so i know it's kind of a tough message to sell to your to your fans

and your teams that you're pulling the plug a year early but i do wonder like how much better off teams would be setting themselves up for the future if they were getting ahead of this as opposed to waiting until like the last possible minute well you know i i i do think to we're going to see a bit more of an evolution that way. But, you know, one of the issues, I think, with the NHL is that, you know, in any given year, it's hard to know who's going to be really good and not. I mean, we can usually identify that small handful of teams we can expect to be in lottery position. And, you know, I think it's harder for teams to know sometimes when the right moment to, you know,

to make those hard calls is going to be. And, you know, as long as the margins are a little bit thin in the league, I think. there's still going to be that temptation to hold on to guys for those seasons. But you're right. I think that there's clearly a benefit there if you're able to make those tough decisions. Because if you remember, the time the Avalanche made the Duchain deal, it felt a little bit like they were in nowhere. And it's been a couple tough years for that organization.

Obviously, in the case it was a guy that they picked on the draft that wanted out at that point in time. and then you only look, what are we, 18 months ahead of that now, and they appear to be a team that we might be talking about for the next five to 10 years as a perennial contender. And so, you know, there's clearly some benefit, I think, to ripping the Band-Aid off. I just don't get the sense that that many teams at this moment in time are inclined to do it.

But, you know, what we do find is that the other sports, you know, some of the trends there are borrowed. And I do think as organizations continue to get more analytically inclined, you know, that you're going to see a bit more of that because there's a big difference between trading a guy, it appears, with six months left on his deal, then, you know, a year in six months. And, you know, when you quantify the performance for that year,

especially if you feel, though, for whatever reason, you can't sign them, you know, the cap issue that you're anticipating or you feel the player might be inclined to test for agency. I mean, you know, it makes a lot of things. Yeah, well, okay, so let's, Let's keep with the theme there then and create the assets sooner than later. Yeah. Well, okay, let's keep the theme there and talk about the avalanche because they are,

you know, they were clearly rumored there to be in on Taylor Hall. And now I'm very curious to see how aggressive they get with, um, with their assets this season and how they view themselves against the rest of the league and whether they try to kind of have their cake and eat it to by prolonging their window and sort of just banking all these assets and making not a half-hardy, push but going in with the team they have now maybe some making some moves in the margins and then trying to you know add some of these defensemen they've drafted and some of these young picks that

they've had over the years into their system next year and moving forward and how to try to have you know like a 10 year window here or whether they really sort of realize that listen we are blessed with nathan mcken who is a top two player in the league for my money right now and whenever you have a player of that caliber you're sort of doing yourself a disservice if you're not doing everything you can to try to win a Stanley cup and you can and you can't can't take future success for granted in this league because as you mentioned from year to year, you never know really who's going to be good and who's not. And while your window can look open now for however many years to come, it can shut just as quickly. And so, you know, there's a lot

going on there, especially with having to potentially pay McCar and Landiscaa a couple of years and McKinnon's salary and this team-friendly deal he's on eventually getting doubled. Like, if you're the avalanche, how do you approach this now that you missed out on Taylor Halls, considering that there isn't sort of another big fish out there beyond, I guess, Chris Kreider. Are you still viewing this season as aggressively as you were before that? Or are you kind of taking a step back now and reevaluating? I think they're going to be a team that's really in on everybody, at least just from an exploratory angle. And, you know, obviously a lot of teams operate that way.

But I think that they are in such a privileged spot because they already have a good team and they have a number of future assets that could. be used to, you know, consummate all kinds of trades. And so, you know, I don't know if they yet know how aggressive they want to be. You know, ultimately with Hall, I think they deemed him to be a bit of a luxury, you know, given that they've scored, you know, a fair amount of goals this year. And, you know, when you're getting into first round picks and potentially, you know, some of the prospects they really like as part of the trade package that was going to be needed, I just think that, you know, that they didn't feel the push to, to, to,

to sacrifice the future in that way. And, you know, it is amazing because you're right to bring up McKinnon's contract there. You know, probably the best value deal in the league or certainly on any top five list that you're going to put together. But, you know, it's still not forever before you're negotiating his next extension. And obviously at that point in time, you know, he's probably doubling that salary or something close to that at that period. So, you know, I think that they're smart in a sense to want to keep developing players at a decent. rate because they're going to need to bring entry-level impact guys in the years ahead, you know, when their contention windows open. And, you know, I don't know that we're going to

see them make a big impact splash. You know, I think with Hall, you know, they wanted to see how far they could take it, you know, where, you know, New Jersey might, you know, what they might be willing to accept in return. You know, they appeared to be out of it, you know, probably a week before the deal was made or somewhere in that time frame, four or five days anyway. I don't, I don't, I don't get the sense that they were they were right down to the final whistle there. And that's just because it was clear that the Devils at least had a package that they weren't able to match or unwilling to. And so, you know, even though they have this window that I think is opening for them to

compete, I mean, reasonably that they're probably going to be better in the next couple of years just with the internal improvement of adding some of those, you know, whether it's a bow bar room to the lineup, but even just the, you know, the step you would expect Kail McCar to continue to take as he gets his feet under him even more at the NHO level. And so, you know, I don't know that they're going to be a big deadline buyer because there isn't really the pressure, in my opinion, on them to do that. I mean, if there's a price there that makes sense for them, I could see it. But, you know, I think that they're going to continue to be pretty calculated and not

be out there taking big risk because this isn't their only year that they think they have a chance to win the cup. I think that they can reasonably expect to be in that position for the next five or more. more. Yeah, well, especially, I mean, for these years they're paying McKinnon $6 million or whatever and have a car on his ELC. I think these next two years are a big opportunity for them to really kind of flex their financial might. The player that makes a lot of sense here, and we touched them a little bit before, is Jean-Gabriel Pajot for them just because if you look at them, you mentioned how Hall would be kind of a luxury because of the offense they already have and

how good they are on that top line. Like Pajos is a guy who sort of would slide, in to that third center role, which I think is still a bit of a kind of open-ended thing for them. And they don't have someone there, especially for this season, that makes a ton of sense. That would be an intriguing fit. Now, the issue is because of Pajos' ridiculous, you know, shooting like where he's got these 18 goals and he's plus 21. And he's at a remarkable season, but there's a lot of stuff that's conflating his value, that's kind of increasing his value artificially a little bit. So I wonder what the market is going to be like for him. And if it becomes to the point where our team's giving up, like, basically more than the devil just gave up

her haul, which I actually, crazy enough, could see happening closer to the deadline. That's probably going to take a smart team like Colorado out of it because as good as Pajou is, eventually reach a point of kind of diminishing returns. But I think for them, like you mentioned sort of the feeling the need to do something or the kind of impetus to do so, like, on the one hand, I agree on the other hand, I really think this year it seems like we say this every year but it's like such a wonky season from the perspective of especially out west the really i'm having a tough time looking at all those teams and sizing them up and trying to find a team that doesn't have at least one kind of pretty serious imperfection to it like i

would say that uh Vegas for example is kind of the most well-rounded team but they certainly with their blue line and how reliant they are and mark andrew flurry um aren't you know this kind of they aren't the 2007 Detroit Red Wings by any means. I think there's some, there's an opening there for a team like the avalanche. They themselves have some flaws, but whenever you have McKinnon and you have McCar playing as well as they are and you have kind of this treasure trust full of assets, like I struggle with, you know, we've seen what happened with the Leafs over the past couple years with Winnipeg, so on and so forth.

Like it's sometimes not as simple as we make it out to be of like, oh, just let this stuff organically happen. And three years from now you're going to finally be hoisting the Stanley Cup. Like sometimes you have to kind of make your own window. get a little aggressive even if you think it's ahead of your timeline. And so for them, that would be kind of the interesting thing for me. I certainly wouldn't be making any rash decisions or trading Bo and Byram just to try and, you know, marginally improve my chances this year.

But if it came to, you know, even a first round pick that's in the 20s or or some sort of a depth, depth asset, I would certainly be looking to improve my team just because I do think this year there's an interesting opportunity presenting itself for a team like the avalanche or anyone out west, quite frankly. Right, and I think that that's really the balancing act, that they're probably the tightrope, they're kind of walking at this point in time. And, you know, I just wonder, you know,

is how much value, though, at this point we place on rentals? And, you know, I've heard this talk a little bit from some front offices that, you know, they almost want to exclusively be out of that game, that they don't know that it's really worth it. And, you know, I think that that maybe as part of the discussion here is, you know, how much is, is 20 regular season games or so of J.G. Pajot worth to a team like the avalanche, plus whatever they can accomplish in the playoff time.

And even if he is having a great season, you know, what sort of, how big is that impact? Does it get you over the top? Does it win you one more round? And I don't know that we have a perfect answer to that. But that's part of what goes on at the deadline nowadays, too, because it does seem as though some of the good teams are a little bit gun-shy on, you know, giving up assets for for such a limited window of a player yeah what if a guy like uh it was throwing us out at the top of my head but i got like Kyle palmy area i know that he has like an extra

year left on his deal i know he's a winger and not a center necessarily but you know there's certain guys like that that uh would make sense for a team like the avalanche where you'd get two kicks at they can and i don't think the price would be uh so off-putting that you'd be running away from the table but um cj let's take a quick break here to hear from a sponsor and then you and i are going to uh talk about some teams that are feeling the heat and pressure and are most likely to make a move sometime between now and the deadline. Sponsoring today's episode of the HockeyPedioCast is Seek. Getting tickets to events can feel overly complicated, but it doesn't really need to be

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So something interesting happened, I think it was yesterday, actually, but with the Chicago Blackhawks moving Brent Seabrook and Calvin DeHan to LTIR, they cleared up a ton of cap space. And now I don't know how functional that is for them because there's still a pretty bad team that is going to have to be cap compliant by the end of the season and moving forward. And so they can't take on a bunch of future money to try and improve their team now. but the instant thought that I had that popped in my head when I saw that was whether they could help facilitate some trades where they would potentially take on bad money that's expiring from teams to allow them to open up financial cap space for them to then turn around and make an actual hockey trade with the third team where they improve their roster. So I don't know.

What do you think about that? Do you think it's a bit too risque or do you think there's some legs to that? my sense is they're open to that and you know what's interesting about the concept in theory is I've heard a number of teams over the years kind of posit that that's how they might use their extra cap space and and in my opinion anyway very few have ever really been able to leverage it to you know accomplish much doing that you know and it makes me feel a little you know intrigued by you know where we are now because you know you just need to go to cap friendly or whichever of your favorite cap site there is and see that

there really aren't that many teams. I mean, even some surprising teams are basically capped out or are very close to the ceiling at this point in the season. And so, you know, it does appear that there's more teams that could probably use that help. And, you know, at minimum, Chicago is positioned to do it. Certainly with any expiring money,

as you as your reference, it gets a little complicated if you're talking about dealing a contract to them that has, you know, years beyond this one just because they're still going to have the same problem next year that they've had because they've been a team that's been right up at the ceiling for many seasons now. And so, you know, I like the idea. I think that it's something they're open to exploring, but I don't know if it's actually going to come to fruition.

Just because, you know, even Montreal, for example, the last couple seasons has had cap space, and I think that they've been willing to use it. But it just has, it's never really made a lot of sense for them or, you know, in terms of what they can get in addition, you know, to swallow that poison pill. I mean, look, Carolina got a first round pick of the Leafs, you know, in the off season for taking Patrick Marlowe's deal and then subsequently buying it out. So, you know, that that cap space does have, can have some significant value.

But, you know, I think the conditions have to be right in the marketplace for that to come to fruition. And, you know, I guess we'll have to wait and see if those conditions exist right now in the league. Yeah. Well, Chicago's in an interesting spot because I think I'm very curious, you know, if you gave Stan Bowman some truth serum and you, or you talked to him behind the scenes, like how he would size up his current roster and where they stand because, you know, they still put on a brave face publicly, I think, and they went into this season. I mean, it was pretty clear by the trades they made for both DeHan and Olimata and how they approached their season and getting Andrew Shawback that they thought they were a couple, you know,

tinkering pieces away and potentially improving a bit defensively from not necessarily getting back to their Stanley Cup Heights, but getting back into the playoff mix. And, you know, what's happened is they're still just as horrific defensive as they were last runner, Jeremy Cullin. I think that just the brilliance of Robin Leonard and Corey Crawford-Rennett has really massed a lot of those flaws. But I think anyone watching this team knows they're still pretty far away from getting back to any sort of competitive window. And so for them, especially with the clear, defined timeline of we basically can only

take on expirings for this cap space because of all the money that's coming back next season, they're in an interesting spot. There's a couple teams. I was doing a bit of a scan on cap-friendly in terms of, You need to find the right fit of a team that is, you know, competitive now and would, in theory, be looking to improve their roster and has an expiring deal that is actually of some sort of substantial value, but as a player that isn't a key contributor to them right now, right? And there's very few instances of that.

I think that the ones that come to mind right now are, you know, Vegas has an interesting spot where if they were to, for example, deal, let's say, Cody Eak and Nick Holden, who, you both certainly aren't key contributors to that roster. They could free up north of $6 million and it could certainly improve their roster through that. And the other one for me that was really interesting was the Leafs. And I'm not sure where they currently stand with the Cody CCC experiment. I know that his minutes are down about an a minute and a half under Sheldon Keith compared

to where they were with Babcock when he was playing north of 22. But, you know, his 4.5 million and the, you know, clear flaws that team still has, despite how well they've been playing under Keith. I think that would be an interesting thing, but obviously it would depend on how they actually view him and whether they think that he's someone that you would get rid of to improve your roster, or whether you wouldn't be able to actually improve that spot. Well, I can say with confidence they view him more highly than you and I probably do in terms of his impact on the team. You know, it is notable, though, that, you know, since Shelton Keith has taken over and obviously

in Keith-Felief now have a coach that we know is, you know, on the same page as management, and is working as part of an organizational decisions, you know, a little more clearly than Mike Babcock was that, you know, his minutes have dropped. He's been, you know, bumped down to the third pairing where he was playing, you know, on what was for a time their shutdown pair earlier in the earth, Morgan Riley. So, you know, he's the only deal that I can see from Toronto where they could trade him

and they're not cutting into bone or cutting into part of what they like about their team. You know, obviously, if they ever wanted, I don't think it could be hard to say move, Casbury Capinen and his contract, Andreas Johnson, you know, those type of players. But, you know, I don't think the team is inclined to do so. And so C.C. really sets up as the only guy that I think reasonably that they could move that creates a cap space they would need to make some other corresponding move, you know, prior to the deadline. And, you know, if they don't do that, you know, really what you're looking at now is the Leafs as currently constructed are more or less probably going to be, you know, what they are even

post-trade deadline. And so, you know, I wouldn't put anything past their front office. I think, you know, they've tried to be as creative as you can be within the parameters at the CBA, probably more than any other team. I mean, they've been incentivized to do that because, obviously, they have the financial wherewithal as an organization to say pay signing bonuses on July 1st and trade players July 2nd, you know, as they did with a couple different guys this last summer, which, you know, helped get the CC for Zytev deal done in part. And same with the deal with Nazim Cadre. I believe they paid a bonus to him prior to dealing in the Colorado.

So, you know, they do exploit the margins or try to find the gray in the system as much as anyone. And so, you know, I don't think it can be ruled out. The problem is Cody C.C. still is a right-hand shot defenseman that plays in the NHL and the Leafs organizationally just don't have, they don't have a lot of guys that do that. And so, you know, maybe if it says part of a deal to get another right shot D, I could see it happening. but if not I wouldn't be surprised quite honestly if we don't see them really make any transactions or no but at the end of the season yeah well it's yeah the market certainly isn't flush with those types of players I always viewed when they made that swap I think people

misunderstood it because I think it was a lot about just getting out from under that Nikita zites have money but I think I also viewed it as like you know that Cody cc4.5 million as a bit of a placeholder where they can eventually use that money to either rebuild him as an asset and potentially flip him and get a gain or somehow move out that money to improve their roster when the opportunity presented itself. And it looked like a really, you know, good plan at the start of the year because he was playing a lot under Mike Babcock and he fit more so with what they were trying to do. Now under Shelton Keith, I do think that there's been a lot of instances where his skill set or let's say lack thereof has stuck out like a bit of a sort of.

in terms of how they want to play and how they want to move the puck. But you're right. I mean, ultimately it comes down to not just getting rid of them for the sake of getting rid of them, but what you're going to do with that $4.5 million or however much room you create for yourself and whether you can improve it. And as I mentioned before, you know, they have one of the rentals in terms of Tyson-Berry. And then guys like Petrangelo and crew clearly aren't going anywhere where their team's trying to win cups right now.

And so the market for guys you could bring on at a relatively low-expe. is pretty limited, especially considering, you know, the assets they've already traded when they traded for Jake Mazen last year and then trading their first, future first to get rid of Patrick Marlow's deal. So the room to, as creative as I'm sure they'd like to get the room to actually tangibly improve your roster through that route is probably a tighter fit than we'd like to make it to believe. Yeah, and, you know, we might never get to walk through this sliding door, but, you know, when we're struggling early in the year, under Mike Babcock, you know, I was kind of wondering if it got to February

and they hadn't sort of pulled out of that nose dive would they become a seller? Would they be a team that tries to trade some of those assets on the blue line? But, you know, alas, they've gone 11 and 4 since Sheldon Keith took over, at least as we're talking right now. And, you know, it does appear that they're

pretty firmly back in the playoff hunt. And, you know, that probably won't be a reality that they have to face. But, you know, it would have been interesting, you know, had they kind of just skid it along if they would have turned into a seller, you know, at the deadline. I think it probably would have been a tough, tough thing to sell in the marketplace. It would have been tough given, you know, how much they're paying their forwards.

But they might have found themselves in that position, as Tampa did, remember, a couple seasons ago when they were trading Brian Boyle and Philpola at the deadline of, you know, what was a pretty good team at that time. Yep, yep, that's right. Okay, enough above the Leafs. Let's do the sharks here for a second. I think they are the most fascinating spot of any of these teams because I think appetite for we were talking about the appetite for the avalanche to do something and whether it's there

i think for the sharks uh if we know anything about Doug wilson is he's certainly not scared to rock the boat and make a big move and they've missed the playoffs once in the past 15 years and so i think uh you know this is a very unusual spot for them to be and now they're in a bind here because they don't have their first this year and it's quite the turn of events for the senators where they're looking like they could potentially have a top five pick that wasn't their own after giving theirs away recently. And they have, and I'm going to, I wrote this down here just for an added effect. They have 47.5 million combined for 2023, 2024 already in 38-year-old Redburns, 34-year-old

Edgar Churl, 33-year-old Eric Carlson, 32-year-old Evander Kane, and 36-year-old Vlasic, 34-year-old Barn Jones. And so that's quite the predicament to be in now, between now and 2023, who, knows what's going to happen as we've seen with teams like the Leafs and the Blackhawks, there's certainly ways to stay cap compliant and move some money around, especially with aging players. And so it's never as bleak as it looks, especially with that far down the road being your lens you're looking through.

But at the same time for this team, it's pretty clear that they've boxed themselves into a corner where they can't really afford to, you know, slow play this and be like, all right, two years from now we're going to sort of get this back, get this operation going back, and we're going to achieve the heights that we were at before. And, you know, not too recently, not too long ago, they were, you know, a couple of bounces away from potentially competing in the Stanley Cup final. And now all of a sudden they are, I think they're like 29th or something in point percentage this season. And so I'm kind of curious to see what they're going to do. I mean, their hands are kind of tied in terms of how much money they invested in

aging players on kind of anchor type contracts that most teams wouldn't trade for and I'm not sure even sure if Doug Wilson would want to trade those players to begin with but you know the there's very few avenues for them to improve their team but it's pretty clear that they can't just stay status quo because they as I said they don't have their first so you know just kind of chugging along at this pace clearly isn't acceptable I don't know is there anything that they conceivably could do whether they would pursue like like what's the what's the vibe right now with San Jose you've painted the perfectly bleak picture here because I think it I don't think you've exaggerated anything you know about the situation they're in and you know I found it interesting that they at

least were inquiring on Hall because I don't know what universe they could even make that deal you know as it is I mean what they would have to be clearing out in terms of cap space even just to bring them in for the rest of the season you know what they could be offering and in terms of the picks and prospects because they've kind of been down that road and making a few impact trades the last few seasons and, you know, realistically where they stand and it's heading the wrong way. And, you know, there's no saying that there isn't a version of this team that can be more competitive next year, even with a lot of the guys you mentioned in their contracts and their

ages. I mean, I'm not certainly pronouncing all those players done as impactful NHLers, but, you know, they're in a really difficult spot. And, you know, I do know that they'll be in on everything that, that, They would feel they could use some more help at Ford in particular and scoring help. But, you know, they're really not dealing from a position of strength in any way here. And I wish I could conjure up a solution or, you know, a way that they can, you know, make this happen. But I think ultimately it wouldn't surprise me if they go through these next few months

and just can't really make the kind of deals that are made for those players, either because of their cap position or, you know, the lack of assets that, you know, they have to really have a debate. Do we want to keep moving second round picks, for example, if we don't have our first? Or is that that going to ultimately be, you know, another death by thousand cuts? Just another, you know, net loss for a team that, let's face it, is already in a really difficult spot as we're talking now to get back into the playoff picture. I mean, they're going to have to play at a level that they haven't sustained it, you know, at any point during the season, you know, for how. half a year basically probably to get in. I mean, I guess where it might work is the West is pretty bunched up.

And, you know, as we spoke about earlier, it's, there's not, there's not a lot of powerhouse teams or clear powerhouse teams. And so maybe there's, there's a world where they can still get in the playoffs this year. But, you know, I just see that them being stuck between a rock and a hard place. And, you know, I don't know that they're going to be able really to acquire anyone impactful between now and the deadline to try to reverse fortunes immediately. Yeah, I mean, they're 1-8 and 1 in December, and I think, you know, it was pretty clear what was going on there with the, when they changed coaches. I mean, it was similar to New Jersey from the perspective of, like, you know, you're so bad defensively and you can't make a save and someone's kind of got to pay for it. And it's easier to pin that blame on the coach than it is to basically completely change your roster. And especially for them, I mean, with how much money they have tied up in these guys.

And I guess this serves as a as a reminder to what we were talking about with the Avalanche where, like, you can't really take stuff. moving forward for granted in this league because while i think everyone would have looked at their situation and would have been like yish you know Doug wilson's really betting on the fact that they can win a stanley cup here and he doesn't really care what's going to happen three or four years down the line i don't think any of us went into this season expecting this would happen and and especially considering they've been for the most part healthy you know like tomash hurtle missed a couple games here or there but these guys have been in the lineup and for all i know they've been, you know, good to go from a competition perspective. It just, for whatever reason, I mean,

they basically are as bad as they were defensively last year and hanging out their goalies to drive, but they offensively have completely fallen off the map and just aren't playing the type of possession hockey they were last year. And so it's really one of the league's bigger puzzles because there isn't an obvious, you know, piece to put in place there to fix it. And I'm not sure what they do. But just knowing Doug Wilson, I do think that there is something coming here because I don't think that just kind of playing the rest of the season out, given the way it's gone, is very palatable. Well, and it's not his MO, which you're correctly saying. And look, there's seven months removed from being in the Western Conference final. I mean, I don't know, even with the loss of Bevelski and some of the things that happened in the off season, I don't know that there would have been a way for, at least for conventional thinking to be that they could find themselves,

potentially in a lottery pick position with Ottawa owning that first round pick. I mean, I wouldn't have saw this either. You know, you just think that blue line alone would be enough just, you know, being such a good pub moving group that they would still be scoring goals at some kind of rate. And, you know, it hasn't been there for them. You know, I don't know what your big move is, though. I mean, I guess it's going to maybe be trading sort of a foundational type of player or someone who's been there a long time.

I mean, maybe that's the option to either shake things up, but also create cap room to bring in someone different. But as I look at them, I just, I don't see an obvious play at this point in time. And, you know, frankly, if they had their first round pick, I'd probably say, why not take a knee on the rest of this year, essentially, and just try to reload with, you know, hopefully the first overall pick next year, plus the guys you already have. But that's an option for them. What a turn of events for the Ottawa Senators organization. I mean, they're still owned by Eugene Melnick, but, you know, DJ Smith's got them playing at least, like, respectable hockey where they're not just a complete right-off on every given night. And now all of a sudden, they're blessed with potentially two really high first-round picks this summer.

It's quite a 180 from where they were at this time last season. Yeah, they might end up with one, too. You know, it would be improbable. It would take some serious lottery luck, but, you know, it's not out of the realm of possibility, which who would have predicted? You know, I'm curious to see how they approach the deadline. You know, we were talking about Pajot earlier, and I really do believe, in fact, I know there are teams already scouting him pretty heavily

and that are interested in him, you know, should he move? But, you know, at this point in time, I don't think anyone knows for sure that he's going to be traded, that they're going to treat him as most rentals are treated. You know, I think that there's a lot of incentives to do that. But they've also taken a number of hits, obviously trading away guys like Dushain after acquiring him, Mark Stone, Eric Carlson,

within the last year and a half. And, you know, Pajot, you know, it might just be that he's having such almost a ridiculous season. You know, when you look at his career, that it doesn't make sense for either him or them to sign an extension before the deadline. But, you know, he is a local guy. And the senators are keeping their cards very close to the vest.

I'd say even more than usual with this particular situation. And so, you know, I don't have a read on the fact that he'll definitely be moved. And I don't think a lot of teams, though, for sure, either, honestly that the rival teams know how odd was going to handle that was now less than two months of the trade deadline well i think a lot of these teams right now i was thinking of this when we're talking with the black hawks and and kind of where they're going to go for the rest of this season but i think a lot of these teams are are watching the world juniors and after that uh debut performance by alexi lafrenier i mean man uh i think a lot of these teams are all of a sudden like even if they

uh you know they were competitive winning games and and and whatnot but not going to make the playoffs all of a sudden i think you're watching this and you're like all right let's uh let's see how we can casually lose a few more games just in case because this guy looks like he could you know just be the type of franchise changing player that only comes around every handful of years exactly and you don't want to overreact to one game at that one tournament but you know it was pretty dominant you know in Canada's opener against the US from lafreniere and look he's had a great season in the Quebec league too I think he was winning scoring title by 10 or 11 points at the time he left to join the Canadian junior team.

And so, you know, he's earned the hype that frankly has been building around him for a couple years now, you know, even as an NHL prospect going back. And, you know, I think if he was in the center, I mean, everyone would be all in. I mean, I guess if there's any concern and it's probably only small concern, but the fact he's a, you know, he plays the wing, you know, is maybe, you know, the difference between him and say, you know, in Austin Matthews when he came up or obviously Connor McDavid the year before that, but, you know,

I think that anyone watching that tournament now, if you're a fan of a team that's in the bottom 10 in the league, you probably don't mind seeing a few more losses come up on this side of the holidays. Okay, before we get out of here, there are a couple other teams that are ahead of here, and I think the flames and then the Canucks, I'm going to put into this bin of, you know,

whereas on all the teams that feeling the heat or the pressure, you know, they've, had up and down seasons they're in that Pacific that's completely wide open and there's like what six teams within like eight to ten points of each other and um you know they're in different spots clearly that the flames came in you know last year they were so dominant in the regular season and then fell apart in the playoffs whereas the Canucks haven't made the playoffs in four years but i think in both those situations uh i think there's there's some pressure here to make the playoffs and and to do something now for the Canucks um i wonder whether they're sort of handcuffed in their ability to

to do that even if Jim Benny would like to because they've already dealt the future conditional first and they're sort of as amazing as it is to say about a team that's as mediocre as they are kind of financially limited in terms of how they've already spent their money so I'm not sure what they could do but man for both those teams it feels like especially with the Pacific being as wide open and Arizona who was a team I think they were stacking themselves up against going out and improving their team in such a tangible way it feels like if anyone's going to make a panic trade, they'd be near the top of my list. Yeah, I think that that's all fair.

And look, you know, ownership in Vancouver has been clear that, you know, I think that the playoffs would be a real nice bonus. I mean, obviously, every owner wants to make the playoffs, but I think, you know, some teams more than others understand maybe where they're at their cycle or there's a certain plan that's been put in place with the hockey operations department. You know, I think in Vancouver, you know, it's pretty clear that they want to give, you know, the Quinn Hughes's and Elias Pedersons and the like, the experience of being in a playoff race,

you know, down to the end of the season, to have them being playing meaningful games and creating a buzz in the marketplace, but also getting those players at that degree of experience. And it looks like at least now that they're positioned to achieve that aim, but you're right. I think that any potential room for improvement there, they're going to explore it.

And, you know, I think that they might end up paying a price, frankly, that we think's crazy for, player just because, you know, they are feeling that level of heat. You know, Calgary, Calgary's interesting. I mean, let's face it, their young players aren't so young anymore. And, you know, they had such a fantastic regular season last year. I'm with you. I think that they're under tremendous pressure.

I mean, it wasn't for performance reasons, but, you know, they've changed the coach this year and seen a little bit of a bump under Jeff Ords since he took over on an interim basis. But, you know, I do think that that's a team. that was probably in the Taylor Hall thing a little bit more meaningfully than was at least known in the media at the time when that deal was going down. And, you know, I just, I just sense that they will be involved in something big potentially, you know, as we get to the second part of the year. I mean, the problem, of course, goes right back to our original one is I don't know how many impactful players are going to even be moved. But, you know, I can say with some confidence that they're going to be banging on the door if it's clear that one of those type of guys is available. because, you know, I think that they look at that division the way we all do.

It's a bit of a bit of a stew. There's not, you know, there's an opportunity there, even if, you know, we don't view them as a high, high-end team at this point in time to put things together and have a great playoff run. And so, you know, it's going to be a pretty intriguing battle, I think, to see how that playoff race starts to crystallize as we get deeper into the season. And, you know, I think you're right that those two teams will be aggressive. Edmonton would like to be, but, you know, the advantage Ken Holland has is, you know, he's only been on a job less than a year. I think, you know, it's easier for him in his position being brought in on a five-year contract to preach some degree of patience to say that we shouldn't be trading a first-rounder, you know, but, you know, they're also capped out, so they're in a similar kind

of quandary, but, you know, I wouldn't rule them out as a potential team that could make a big move, too, just because I think there's pressure in that marketplace to get back in the playoffs. you know, while they have Connor McDavid playing at the level he is. Yeah, wasting another McDavid season like this would be a complete travesty. I think for the flame is the one saving grace for them is like, it's been encouraging under Jeff Ward that their offense has come alive. I think some of that

was just like a natural regression like Johnny Goodrow wasn't going to keep shooting whatever single digit percentage he was the entire season. And he's certainly kind of shown signs of life here. But they, I think they could certainly benefit from another scoring winger, whether it was a Mike Hoffman or a Tyler Topoli or so on and so forth. And so that's kind of

typically we see around this time of year, if you have one need, that's probably a good one to have because those are the types of players that usually are kicking around for not too crazy prices, whereas like defensemen and centers are harder to come by. But yeah, as much improved as they've been in the standings under Jeff Ward with an 83 and 1 record, it's still a lot of smoke and mirrors for me in terms of the underlying play and not being that improved. And surprisingly, like the backbone of that team this year has been the amazing play of David Ridge and the goaltending and that's kind of been carrying them. So I think, you know, it will be curious to see. I know that,

Bradshaw-Living has been pretty reluctant to spend on pure rentals in the past, but just considering the way last year ended and now how they've come out of the gate this season, I think there's going to be a bit of an added emphasis for that. So, yeah, I mean, hopefully some of these teams do feel it. Like, it's weird because this time of season, we get into that thing where, you know, with a loser point, one of the added benefits is that there's a ton of parity and all these teams can hang around the race and talk themselves into potentially competing for a playoff spot.

and they get into these races down the stretch where they're still within earshot of a playoff spot and so they can kind of sell that to their fan base. But what that also leads us with is like a lot of teams that aren't really willing to pull the plug on their season and trade guys because they are in that spot. And so we don't have a very crystallized market of buyers and sellers. It's a lot of kind of teams in this gray area in the middle. And so maybe that provides an advantage for teams that are willing to and are able to critically assess where they stand.

And the Rangers were a good example for me. where even though they're kind of hanging around, I think they've been pretty smart in the past of realizing they need to play for the long game and accumulate as many assets as they can. And I wouldn't be surprised if despite the fact that they're hanging around in the metro, they would trade a guy like Chris Kreider just because the potential return they could get for him, especially with haul off the market now, is just too tasty to kind of sit by and overlook. So I'm really curious to see which teams do assert themselves as sellers

and which teams really go for it as buyers, and hopefully we get that and not just a bunch of teams kind of sitting on the fence. Right, and that's where the pressure comes in. And it's probably a good thing that there's a few markets where that pressure exists because that's likely to push front offices out of their comfort zones a little bit. And, you know, this is a wide open year. I mean, I think that we've kind of touched on that a little bit, but, you know, I don't know.

I think there's a lot of teams that could at least talk themselves into the idea of things breaking their way and if they have a strong second half, and get things rolling and make an addition or two. And, you know, that usually creates a little bit more, you know, excitement in the trade market as well. All right, CJ. Well, I know you're a busy man. I'm going to let you go.

You're an absolute champ. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the show and chat. And this was a blast. And happy holidays. Happy New Year. And let's do this again sometime in 2020 and I'll wait as long as we did last time. Yeah, we're not waiting until 2021. You can mark that down as one of my resolutions.

All right, man. Chat soon. Beocast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovic and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockey p-diocast.