The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 336: Elvis Is In The Building

Episode Date: January 21, 2020

Alison Lukan joins the show to discuss the surprisingly feisty Columbus Blue Jackets, the perfect marriage between their defensive system and their goaltending, the organization's usage of analytics and John Tortorella coming around on it over time, and how they'll be able to create offense without the luxury of an Artemi Panarin caliber of playmaker doing it all himself.See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Are you ready for the most ridiculous internet sports show you have ever seen? Welcome to React, home of the most outrageous and hilarious videos the web has to offer. So join me, Rocky Theos, and my co-host, Raiders Pro Bowl defensive end, Max Crosby, as we invite your favorite athletes, celebrities, influencers, entertainers in for an episode of games, laughs, and of course the funniest reactions to the wildest web clips out there. Catch React on YouTube, and that is React, R-E-A-X-X. Don't miss it. This podcast episode is brought to you by Coors Light.

These days, everything is go, go, go. It's non-stop hustle all the time. Work, friends, family. Expect you to be on 24-7? Well, sometimes you just need to reach for a Coors Light because it's made to chill. Coors Light is cold-loggered, cold-filtered, and cold-packaged. It's as crisp and refreshing as the Colorado Rockies. It is literally made to chill.

Coors Light is the one I choose when I need to unwind. So when you want to hit reset, reach for the beer that's made to chill. Get Coors Light and the new look delivered straight to your door with Drizzly or Instacart. Celebrate responsibly. Coors Brewing Company, Golden Colorado. To the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey P.D.O.cast with your host, Dmitri Filipovich. Welcome to the Hockey Pediocast. My name is Dimitra Filipovich.

and joining me is my good buddy Allison Lucan. Allison, what's going on? Oh, my gosh, I'm great. How are you? I'm so happy to be here. I'm great, too. I feel like, I think this is your third time on the show, I want to say. I think it's the third part of the trilogy.

Like, the first time I had you on was during the summer when we were trying to figure out what the Blue Jackets were going to do with Artemie Panarin and Sergey Bobrovsky and their impending free agency and how the season would play out. Then I had you on at the deadline last year after they kind of pushed all their chips in and we were breaking down the trades and their decision to do so. And then now we're kind of the fallout and how this Bluejackets team all of a sudden is sort of the talk of the league. I mean, a 15-2 and 4 stretch is going to do that.

But I think there's so many just delicious layers to kind of peel back and get into here. And before we started recording, you and I were, I asked you about what's going on right now. And then you're just like, I'm trying to make sense of it, but I have no idea how to do so. And I guess that's not the most compelling podcasting, if that's the route we go. but I feel like, you know, in the next hour or so you and I'll be able to work through this. For sure. I mean, I certainly can see what's happening and have thoughts. It's just incredible that they've been able to do this.

I mean, not only because of the lack of expectations, but just how this season started out. So rough for this group. Then they get demolished by injuries. And now to do what they're doing, it's every night it's just kind of a different story. of random weird pieces they put together to keep this wind street going and now hold on to a wild card spot it's insane yeah no and i think i'm of two minds of it because on the one hand i certainly uh can't pat myself on the back by any means of great credit because when i was doing my preseason projections i like many others in our industry got sucked into the allure of what the devils did

this summer and so i even pick them ahead of the blue jackets the same time though i was uh i would consider myself in the camp of sort of optimists about the blue jackets because I think that it was the idea was a bit overblown that you know with paneran bobravsky do Shane even do zingle walking out the door and them not really having any assets in return to show for that as uh free agents that walked away I thought it was overblown from the perspective of it wasn't like this team was necessary or this franchise was you know starting from square one I mean you've got a 21 year old number one center you've got a 25 and 22 year old first pairing defenseman you've got an infirm infrastructure in a place and I think a good system of players in their early to mid-20s on the way up

of varying degrees that they've drafted and kind of internally developed. And so factored that in with the financial flexibility of, you know, all these players with big capits leaving that gives you more room to play around with in the future. I thought the team was certainly going to take a step back from a standings perspective and I didn't see them competing for a playoff spot as the way they are. But I didn't think it was fully doom and gloom and like, okay, well, they went all in and now they're completely starting from. score one because the seeds of this were certainly in place. Yeah, for sure.

And I was actually a little bit more optimistic. I thought that they would, going into this season, I thought that they would keep it interesting. I think what I was concerned about early is, you know, I'm with you. The defense is obviously, in my opinion, one of the tops in the league. I mean, if you have Seth Jones and Zach Werenski, come on. I mean, they're just elite. But I thought the offense wouldn't take as much of a hit. as it did early on.

So that concerned me. It felt like this team just could not get a bounce. I mean, I wrote on this earlier in the season. They had, I think going back, they had the third worst shooting percentage ever since the last lockout ever. Like, that's insane. So they had bad luck.

And then, you know, the one thing I had thought would start stronger than it did was the play of Elvis and Merleekins, Eunice Corpusala was strong, but we all thought Elvis was going to come over and be quite good, and his start was quite rough. So my expectations took a hit, and now here we are. They're kind of where I said they were going to be before the season started, and now I have to wrap my head around that once again. I wonder, you know, not, I'm not trying to galaxy brain this by any means and make the argument

that a coach like John Torrella would not want a coach at Tammy Panera, because certainly whenever you can have playmakers and game breakers and skis, skill of that level you want it. But I just think from like a sort of storytelling perspective, but sort of a narrative perspective of like being able to relish the opportunity of kind of being this sort of underdog where it's like, all right, I don't necessarily have the firepower or the personnel to play this kind of run and gun fun back and forth style like we're seeing the Colorado Avalanche and Toronto Maple Leafs play. Instead, we're really going to hone in and tightly craft this defensively responsible kind of, you know,

chain of events where it's like every player is linked and you just have this depth and and it feels like there isn't even really like a top line. I know that basically whoever Pier Luke Dubois playing, you can kind of consider that the top line, but it does feel like this is like an 18 player unit as opposed to, you know, your traditional first line, first parents on and so forth. And so I think from like getting that kind of buy in and you even heard on the broadcast recently how they're talking about how you know, with the goalies, with Elvis, starting to play. And then most recently against the Rangers, it's like, I think there's a certain accountability or a certain level of the players, not trying harder, but it's like, all right, where we kind of realize what the perception

is of us around the league and how people think this season's going to go. And instead, we're going to double down on this defensive identity and do what we do well and focus on that and let everything else play out. Yeah, I totally agree. You know, and I, like you said, this is not to say that John Tortorella didn't love and appreciate every second. of Artemi Panarin, but we can go back to that video of his pregame speech before game one against Tampa. And what was his whole message? His whole message was nobody is talking about you. Everybody's talking about Tampa. No one's giving you a chance. I think that that style is what he connects with the most. That's a motivator for him, I think, individually. So it's easy for him

to narrate that to his team. And I think this is a group of players that connect with it too. I mean, some of these guys went Nick Folino, Cam Atkinson, David Savard, they were in Columbus when this team was not good at all. They know what it's like to hear, you're going to Columbus, and they're like, ugh, you know. I mean, Nick Folino talks about that.

He was like, well, I was ready for a fresh start, but also Columbus, question mark. I don't even know where that is. So I think it connects with this group, too. and then you look at the elite talent. What's cool about this defense, like you said, this defensive identity that they've connected with, is that they're just not locking down old school,

old New Jersey left wing lock style. They're preventing and then pushing the other way. And they have the horses to do that defensively. And that's what I think is really cool about. When they're on their game, watching them play, it's really fun to watch. Well, and I think there's a bit of a chicken and egg situation here I want to get into because, you know, the goaltending itself, especially since Elvis got some of

those early season jitters or just a sort of transition to a different league and a different rank size and different shooting talent out of the way. And Tick took over as the number one when the nuris score Pissolo went down. I mean, all of his numbers are through the roof. I don't need to recite them here. Pretty much he saved everything humanly imaginable and has been the best goalie in the league since then. And he's right up there for the season now, which is remarkable, considering the slow start and the seven goal against debut, that he's right up there with the Tristan juries and Darcy Kemper is in pretty much every single metric.

And on the one hand, I think he's certainly played well, and he's been every bit as advertised from the sort of fun, infectious energy, the celebrations, the excitement, and that's something you don't often say, especially about a goalie. But on the other hand, when you dive deeper into the numbers, it really does feel like, and it's very fitting for this Columbus Blue Jackets team,

where it's tough to sort of separate one from the other when it comes to the goal tending and the defense in front of them. And I know people are going to roll their eyes when we talk about shot blocking and for good reason. And you know, you understand that if you're constantly just having to fully rely on shot blocking, and that's all you do. It typically means you don't have the puck and that's not a good thing. And I think we all know that by now.

But what is interesting about this Blue Jacket's team and their sort of 5-on-5 resume and portfolio is, in terms of course, you just pure shot attempts, they're like 48% or so, I think, and they don't look like a very good team. Then you go to Fenwick and you remove those block shots and they're suddenly better. Then you go on to what's actually going towards a net and they're better. And then you go into high danger. It's very reminiscent of these Barry Trots Islanders teams, I think, of the stars now over the past year and a half or so.

And these kind of grade A defensive teams in the league where there's a pretty clear, considered effort of limiting what the opposition does and making life easier on your goal. And so I think those two kind of go hand in hand where the goaltending has certainly been good and especially for how much they're paying as opposed to what example went out of the door this summer with the Brodsky. It's a clear net win for them. But on the other hand, it does feel like what the blue jackets have built here under John Chorogel is like a top five-ish environment in terms of making goalies look good, I think. Oh, yeah. And I think, you know, and with all respect to Matisse Kivleniak's who played last the other night in New York, you know, that's a perfect example. This is a kid who hasn't even really been able to hold on to a spot in the AHL.

You know, he was going back and forth between the A and the ECHL last season. And when he started, I think we all kind of, those of us who've been following the team, we're all kind of like, oh boy, oh boy, here we go. But I think you're absolutely right is that this defense has to clamp down. And, you know, even when we look at the expected goal numbers for this team, and when I talk about this team to people, I say, don't get fooled. like just like you said, don't get fooled by the quantity. Don't look at those measures.

Look at the quality. And like, and they have hovered right around top three to top five, um, this entire season. Now, what's really interesting to me, to your point of chicken and egg,

is that in this last little stretch, and this is what Tortorella has been kind of warning about in some of his comments that defense has loosened up a little bit. Um, in Brasleekins has faced quite a high degree of quality against, compared to what this team usually gives up. So there are, and it's hard, right, because with what we do, when we're trying to analyze the game, take the 5-0 win over New Jersey.

Fans are ecstatic, 5-0. That's insane, right? But the team played terribly and lost the volume battle and the quality battle. And that's a game where Merzleekins really did truly shine and take that game for them. So I think you're right. I think that this is the perfect environment for a young. young, more green goaltender to get their footing and perform well. But it's also a hard way to play, and this team can't forget it.

And they have to keep playing that way. They can't, as John Torrella would say, they can't let it get too good to them and not focus. Because the goaltenders do need that long term, I think. Yeah, no, there's been games there. I think even the game against the hurricanes that they won at home recently. Oh, yeah. They're clearly the second and best team on the ice, but we know that when you have the better goal tenor, the goaltender that stands on his head a little bit, it can make the big difference.

But yeah, I mean, we were just diving into the numbers. I was a little bit surprised to see that, you know, just to throw some metrics at you, like at 5-1-5, just 52.4% of the attempts, they surrender, actually make it on net, and that's the second best behind the Islanders. So that kind of shows what they're actually giving up in terms of letting it go through compared to what they're blocking. Just 15.5% of the attempts they give up are high danger trances, and that's the second best. And so it certainly lends itself into that.

And I guess, you know, when you're pivoting from that into a bigger picture discussion or something that fans of different teams that are listening can take from this, I do think it is kind of instructive because, you know, let's take Bobrovsky here, for example, where he's clearly in a much inferior environment in terms of what he has to face and what the Panthers kind of give up in terms of their system, where their bottom 10 in terms of how much they give up in terms of high danger and expected goals. And it's like, yeah, no goalie's probably going to look their best there. But I guess it kind of gets into this sort of philosophical discussion of, you know, we know that goalie is similar to running backs in football. It's like you don't want to invest long term in them or premium resources because the position is so volatile and we're not sure what the performance is going to look like in future years. But I just think from even like a shorter term perspective when you're looking at one, two, three year deals, it's kind of tricky to just pay a goalie like Bobrovsky.

for example and say we're going to be an offensive team or take it freddie anderson right now and his struggles in toronto and say you know we're going to hope you're going to be the ultimate equalizer and it'll kind of bail us out when you can and we're going to try to score as many goals and kind of overlook the defensive side of things and we often see that that's it's great and it's exciting and it's fun to watch but we just know that goleys typically cannot shoulder that load or make up that big of a difference whereas if you have a system in front of them you can really get away with paying ELCs and under a million dollars for Elvis and Reslikens and, you know, 1.25 or whatever for, you know, Scorposolo and make it work because of the structure in front of

them. So I know there's a given take from like clearly the way Columbus plays might limit how much they generate offensively because they are so dialed in on their own zone. But at the same time, it feels like if you're constructing a team, having that system is much more important than actually just kind of hoping that you're going to pay a goalie. And just because he's a star, he'll be able to make up for everything that's lacking in front of them. Absolutely. And I actually just did a piece on Bobrovsky last week looking at this and, you know, all these metrics that we just threw about to with Columbus.

You're right. Florida's on, I mean, this is the worst defense in terms of shots against, quality against, that Bobrovsky has ever played behind in his career. So you couple that with adjusting to a new system. It's not just that they're not performing. They play a different style. They play a different style. set up. So it, it, that affects, you know, I talked to some goaltending analysts because I don't think

any of us understand goaltending enough unless we've really studied or played the position. You know, they said that that really affects your ability to trust the play in front of you, which then causes you to cheat. And now you really aren't your true capacity is the last line of defense, right? You're, you're trying to over anticipate. You over commit. You get a lot of backdoor tap-ins, things like that. So I totally agree. You've got to be careful here. in terms of what you expect a goaltender to do because we all watch the game. We all watch and go, oh my gosh, look at that wide open net. I mean, it's an incredibly hard job.

And they can't make up for the lack of five players play in front of them. Yeah, no, they certainly can. I guess from Columbus' perspective, I'm sure they're sort of relishing this season they're having right now. And they're all in on it from this perspective. But one of the questions they are going to have moving forward is, especially with such a small sample, with Elvis as an RFA and looking for a new deal this summer. Same with Corpus Sallo, where what route they're going to go with those contracts,

considering that I think they're quietly building this amazing goalie factory pipeline where I think any sort of evaluator or goalie purist you talk to would look at a guy like Dan El Tarasov, for example, who they drafted 86th in 2017 and they view him as the goalie of the future just purely on like raw tools. and then even the Finnish goalie, vainy, Vanilinen, or however he pronounced his name that they drafted in 2018, like he's doing well in the HL now in his first year overseas.

And so he looks like he could be promising as well. And so, you know, it's a different dilemma because I don't think regardless of how well out of his place, he's not going to get himself into the same tax bracket as Sergey Borewski in where it was much easier for them to make that decision. But it will be fascinating. And it also, it's like, just we're talking about copycat leagues beyond all the jokes about just loading up on Latvian goals,

please. It's like clearly Columbus is doing something here where you can just rattle off four or five guys that pretty much every team in the league would love to have in their system and they've gotten all of them in the third or fourth round of drafts. Yeah. I mean, you know, and I think it's funny. I look like I got something right for once. You know, I've been touting this goaltending pipeline for a while as the strongest part of their prospect system. And, you know, like you say, people are going to go, oh, we're going to do this, but this pipeline is years in the making, going back to Ian Clark, connections to even find De Niel Teresoff. I mean, for those who follow that deep in the draft and follow goaltending,

you know that this kid was literally injured his entire draft year. So no one was even looking at him. And Ian Clark, who was with Columbus at the time, had the connections to have known how this kid played in this small town in Russia and was able to really keep tabs on his recovery, really get a good read on his current health and ability to recover. and they were able to steal him away. And Vivalina, you know, another one just knowing the game, knowing when to pick the player, you can't build a pipeline, just like you can't build a pipeline of forwards or defensemen

overnight either. You know, this takes some time. What I'm really curious about, too, you know, everyone's like, well, what are you going to do? This is a controversy for me, unless there's an incredible trade offer on the table for one of these two goaltenders at the end of this season. I doubt this is going to be a trade deadline move, because we all know that's a really difficult thing to put into your team at the deadline as a goaltender. Unless there's an incredible offer for these guys, why not just take load management strategy by the horns and keep these two around? You can trade them next year, take some time

to figure it out. Corpusalo earned the starting net, but Merzleekins has certainly made a case for himself now, too. I think as long as you're up front and honest with these two, you're to when Corpus Hollow comes back. And that's a hallmark of John Tortarillo's coaching to say, we're going to go two games, two games, two games, back and forth between the two of you, or whatever they decide. So there's not a lot of concern and worry about when am I going to play next. Why not keep these two guys healthy and just let them be at their best?

If they can keep playing like this, this is a team that's going to have postseason games. And we know how much it can hurt to have a tired goaltender. So I would love to see this club explore some. of the possible advantages of load management because they can afford to keep these two around unless there's just like I said some incredible trade deal on the table come this summer. Well, yeah, especially with a system you have in front of them where you can feel comfortable, not necessarily saying that goalies don't matter that anyone you put in there is going to have the exact same performance, but it increases your floor, I guess, you could say.

And both guys are are a phase, as we mentioned. And so it's different from last year, for example, where even if you think that they're playing themselves into a payday that you might think is too pricey or or you think just because of that pipeline we mentioned you don't want to fully commit long term this summer you still have them and they're right and so you can get creative with that and make it work as well the summer so it's a great position to be in and i think uh you know there's so much that goes in there was funny i tweeted last night after the rangers game about sort of that performance and that tweet went a little viral and it got a lot of feedback in terms of people giving credit to many legacy to yarmouckelein to john

to Artorella, to the defense, to the goalies. And I guess that is what is so ultimately fascinating about the goaltending position and what can be kind of blessing and occurs a double-edged sword for analysts of you and I, where it's like it's tough to know how to strip all of those individual parts and isolate the factors and go, okay, this is the reason why it does feel like in a lot of these cases. It can, based on your perspective, you could attribute it to one thing or another and be equally right. And so I guess in Columbus's case, it doesn't really matter because they,

do have that humming and they clearly are do something right. But in terms of other teams that are looking at it, it's, it's an interesting problem to try to kind of figure out of like, how do we replicate this and how do we have this in our system as well where we can draft, develop like this and make the goalies look as good as they are with the system in front of them. Yeah. I mean, and you know, we all laugh too because particularly with these blue jackets when they were struggling, everyone was touting out the, well, you know, St. Louis was in life. last place. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How many times has that happened? You know, it's almost too easy to copycat. I think it really comes down to defining your identity and building to that,

which is why I think we don't necessarily take enough time to pause and understand the ripple effects of when there are front office changes, when there are significant overhauls in terms of the coaching staff. Because you're right, Columbus can win this way because they have all. all the right parts in all the right places. You take Elvis Mers-Leakins, you put him in half of the other NHL teams' nets, you're not going to get the same results. Same with Sergei Bobrovsky.

If you bring Sergei Bobrovsky back to Columbus right now, what's he doing? Right? So you're spot on and that you can't just say, go get young goaltenders and have a strong defense. You have to look at this holistically. And even like you said, the game last night,

you know, Matisse Kivlennox kept that team in the game the first two periods, And then the team in front of him kept them in the game and won the game in the third period. So there's even those nuances too. And when we see teams start to copycat, I almost feel like that's a little lazy because it's so much bigger than that. It's looking at every aspect of play, deciding who you want to be, and then building, drafting, developing, recruiting all of that to that identity so that it works. Otherwise, the concept doesn't work in and of itself being a concept. right yeah it's a whole kind of there's a lot of moving parts i guess if you if you pull out one of them

it's kind of like a jenga thing where it can all fall apart but you know let's talk a bit about tortarella here and i think it's such a fascinating topic because i've kind of done a full 180 here on him where when i started this podcast when and it kind of coincided with him taking over from todd richards and there was this sort of stigma of him being kind of like uh you know ra ra and your face old school hockey guy, you know, is known for the fiery tantrums and especially coming off the Vancouver gig where pretty much everything that could have gone wrong could have. And I think even he'd admit that he would do that significantly differently if he could kind of go back in time. It was fair, I think, to evaluate him off of that. But now that we have this tenure, this sample

under the Blue Jackets where he's clearly done, I think, a masterful job of squeezing the most out of what he's been given, especially when you look at this season, for example, acknowledging that when you lose that much offensive talent, it's going to be tough to keep playing that way. And so you have to make adjustments that fit your personnel. And I think whether he's always wanted to do it this way or not, it's kind of lined up where now this team can play that kind of depth, speed, structured game that goes well with their forecheck and creating offense from defense and really focusing on the play in your own end. And, you know, it was kind of crazy to look at the fact that, and this is a testament to the success he's had, is that he's currently standing as the fourth longest tenured coach behind just John Cooper, Paul Maurice, and Jeff Blaschland.

It feels like yesterday, really, that he took over for this job. But I guess I'm kind of curious to get into that with you of like this sort of journey we've been on with Tororella in our lives and how much has changed. And I think, you know, you obviously interacting with them more and covering the team more closely can speak. to this better, but it does feel like there is, I'm not sure how much of it is reality and how much of it is just like a nice narrative for someone like myself to latch on you, but it does feel like for whatever

reason, and he would certainly, I think, never in blatant terms, admit this publicly, but it does feel like behind the scenes, there has been kind of an acceptance of how the game has changed or his own evolution as a coach in terms of communication, in terms of, you know,

pushing different buttons and sort of adjusting from the coach he was back in the day. I'm not sure how much of that is just a neat narrative because the team is successful or how much of it is reality in and testament to his own evolution as a coach. Yeah, and it is funny. He has actually talked about it. He, you know, my personal opinion was always that when he came to Columbus, he was on a little bit of a redemption tour himself. He would have done Vancouver differently. I completely agree with you. I don't think as fiery and as devil may care as he is, I don't think he's thrilled with how that went down and the YouTube videos that are out there and that exist. But I think he was on a redemption tour to begin with. And since he's come to Columbus, he has said

things like, this game is changing and I need to change with it. And this game isn't like it used to be anymore. And for a long time, my position on him was that he was, that he was actually quite a progressive coach. He just didn't say the things that people like you and I say. You know, he, he would tease about analytics, but he wanted an active defense. He wanted a five-man unit. He created as close as we get to positionless hockey with Zach Wrenski and Seth Jones, calling them rovers and asking them to just do whatever they want to do. So I think, you know, he was the first coach, I'll never forget, going back to his first series against Pittsburgh, he was the first coach, and then Mike Sullivan followed suit because it came off of a project those two had actually done that started talking about the value of scoring chances over shot volume.

This is John Tortorella. And so it was crazy. And what's been interesting to me this year specifically is that more so than any other year, he has talked about how, you know, there are so many rookies on this team. He has talked about specifically how he went into this year knowing that he had to keep himself. in check, that he couldn't be even as fiery as Tortorilla 2.0 has been in the past. And the players have said, for the most part, he has done that. He knows he can't push these young guys and players of today's age like he did in the past. And he's really focused on it. He brings it up of his own volition quite a few times. And what's been intriguing to me, while he's always, like I said,

always talked about progressive hockey concepts, and he's talked about measures and metrics that he either creates or tracks on his own that are different than the quote-unquote traditional box score type stats. He's finally starting to openly talk about how he's learning more and using the specific word, analytics. And, you know, someday before he leaves Columbus, I need to ask him what his first experience with quote-unquote analytics was, because I have this impression that, like, someone came in with this like two inch stack of paper, you know, with just all numbers and was like, here, this explains everything. And that certainly wouldn't go over well with many people. So I think he had a really bad perception of what they were. But I really like how he talks about

them now. He talks about finding numbers that he can understand that relate to how he wants his team to play and applying them. He's talking, he's openly saying, I'm trying to learn them more. I'm trying to use them more. And again, he'll couch it and say intelligently. But he, you know, I think the peak moment for me this year has been when he said on the record pregame in Vegas that plus minus is the most useless stat. So we're getting there, people. We're getting there.

But yeah, he's really, he's so much more interesting and normal than the outside perceptions suggests. And I get how he got that. He comes by it honestly. but he's really one of the most fascinating individuals I've had the opportunity to cover. Yeah, it does feel like a lot of these quotes that you see from him are he's basically describing concepts that we are talking about online. But he says them in hockey speak or like kind of layman's terms. And then I guess this is the tantalizing part because I get it.

Like, listen, he's been around the game for a long time and he comes from a different era. And so you're never going to get that full buy. And I think it's a healthy skepticism. and sort of asking questions and wondering whether there's different ways to accomplish the same result. And I think that's great. But then, you know, it does feel like it kind of sometimes gets couched with like a random throwaway comment that also gives a lot of ammunition to the anti-analytic crowd as well. And it feels like it's like kind of on both sides of the fence where it's like if it is a real like Rorschach test really, right? It's like if you come into it and you are pro-analytics, you can read a John Turtorella quote and be like, oh, this guy gets it.

Or if you are an old-school, you know, physicality trumps all plus minus is the greatest measure of a player's performance. You can also find like little nuggets in there from Tortoella press conferences as well. And so I guess he's doing a good job of increasing his approval rating just by really kind of, you know, saying stuff. They're both sides, both sides of the argument or I guess conversation with like. Yeah, and I think that that's that exact kind of lever, if you will, that measure is finally starting to shift. Because I totally agree with you on like the couching and the slight little digs, particularly in the past couple weeks, that has stopped from him. And I think, you know, he even earlier this year, it was right around Thanksgiving. I'll never forget because I remember what I was eating as we were talking about it when we were sitting in the room.

He was talking about reading studies on the right time to pull a goaltender. Right? So, you know, this is, he's, he's becoming more and more open about these ideas. And I think now his, his couching and his critiques are becoming more about make sure this stuff is understandable and relevant, which, look, I have a hundred percent time for. I totally agree with him. And it's, the digs are gone. The, well, you know how I feel about analytics. Those were still around at the start of the season, but they have really fallen off. And I think part of what's helped him, is like I said, when he brought in this active defense methodology, he wanted to track how frequently the first play out of the defensive zone was north-south versus east-west. He basically didn't want the defense relying on the D-to-D pass overly more so than they should. So he had the team start tracking the percentage of first plays that were north-south versus east-west.

And he gets that every game. And I think that when he can see that and he can see the effectiveness of this, he has Brad Shaw, who's a very intelligent coach as his assistant, who brings in a lot of tracking ideas and measurability ideas. And then he sees that the concepts can be measured and the concepts are working on the ice. I think he's not an idiot. I think it's important for him to see that what they want the team to do is happening and working. and that's cemented for him. And what I commend him on, it's funny, the athletic player poll came out. And, you know, of course, one of the questions was, do you care about analytics?

And a lot of the players said no. And I was like, I don't care if players care about analytics. And I think John Tortorella is spot on in that. There are a couple key things that he puts up in the room, and he puts them up primarily for discussion, not as like a report card type idea, but an education and a discussion with his players. but he's very careful not to overload his team with information. He talks about that all the time. And I think also that is one of the benefits of how he's entered into this new age of hockey,

if you will, is that he's not saying, ooh, this is so cool. Here, let's all look at 300 things together. And here, players, let's look at this too. He's very cautious on that end of it. And I really respect that in how he's coaching this team as well. Yeah, I think framing goes a long way. There was a player that was sourced. as a player from the Atlantic Division.

I wonder who that was. But they made a good joke about how it's like, you know, he just like, it's kind of like his accountant where he just leaves it for other people. They get it better than they do. And it's like, that's perfectly fair, I think, you know, and it's always weird to me when people run to ask players about their shot shirt and stuff like that.

And then clearly the player as a jock who has so a million different things on their agenda and prioritizing in terms of getting ready for games and training and so on and so forth is like, you know, quickly dismisses it. And then you point to that as an excuse that analytics doesn't actually matter. And it's so silly to me. But, you know, I think like a great example of that would be, and, you know, not to say that Torrella has done this, but in terms of sort of that message or illustrating points that could potentially be of utility to players or kind of show progress is, you know, if you go on like Michael McCurdy's website, for example, on HockeyWays, and you just kind of look at the heat maps of this Blue Jackets team and what they're giving up and generating them. themselves at 5-15 last year versus this year, for example.

It was amazing to me when I was preparing for this podcast, looking at it from the perspective of like basically both in terms of for and against, they've eliminated everything in front of the net. And it's like, it went from this like red blob to just completely dark blue and it's like nothing's happening there. And that really, I mean, you could see that from, you know, the chances and the expected goals and so on and so forth. But that's like a picture, which is very clearly easy to identify and take the, you know,

the takeaway message from it for a player. And so stuff like that, I feel like could go a long way in terms of having a succinct point that could go a long way in terms of either hammering a point home where the team needs to change their performance or sort of showing them like, yeah, you know, the things we're doing are leading to these positive results and we need to keep playing this way. And so I think that's the important stuff, not like looking at whether a player is a 49% or a 51.5% shot share guy.

Right. And, you know, it's funny, I just did a piece with Brad Shaw developed, actually going back to his days with the blues and Hitch, had developed. He calls it a puck touch sheet. But really what it's measuring is, is transition game, the transition game up the ice, not defensive play, but offensively transitioning the puck. And he's worked through it. They're just going to start introducing that sheet to the team. I'm not sure if they're going to do it before the break or after the break, but they're about to introduce it to the team. but not only because, and again, we speak about how this team has to play.

And this is what Bradshaw brought it to John Tortorella. John Tortorella kind of took it in, made some tweaks to it and said, okay, this is good, let's use this. You know, he saw that it matched how this team needed to play. Again, that active defense, minimal time in your own zone, moving the puck with control to create offense going north, as he likes to say. And what Bradshaw did to it too, and both of the. coaches have talked about this. They're like, what we like about this is that it gives each player

a score. Again, it's not some crazy random percentage. It's a score. They basically gamified it for the players, because as we know, these guys are all super competitive. So they've gamified it for them. And at the same time, even as I was talking to Brad Shaw about it, they are both, both he and John Tortorella are keenly, keenly aware that this is still not the end all be all. This is not the, this is now how we evaluate you. This is how we evaluate this part of the game. And Bradshaw said, this is the kind of thing where Seth Jones and Zach Wrenzky

are always going to be top of the list. But players like, and other players who aren't, and they're not supposed to be big pieces of that transition game aren't. And that's why we look at them in other ways and talk to them about other things. So I think it's really interesting to watch how they're tying what they measure

to what they want this team to do on the ice. Yeah, that's a great point. I think sometimes we can get lost in like everything gets the internet. Everything gets taken to the extreme, obviously. But it's like, you know, speaking in absolutes where it's like. And I think that's where players, there is a lot of pushback. I think there'd be a lot more receptive if you, you know, were a player and you weren't worried.

I know, I forget where it was. I think it was on the point hockey where they had an interview with David Perron recently and they were kind of talking about this stuff and pran was actually citing that he's like seen metrics in the past and made him look bad and and that's why he was upset about it and certainly if you care you know if it's going to be used against you an arbitration or in terms of contract negotiations i can see why you'd be upset with it whereas it's going to be tough to with most teams to leverage uh good underlying numbers into a massive payday with a with a team right for the most part so it kind of feels like it's taking more off the table than adding for individual players but i think

if you view it from that perspective of, you know, it's just one piece of the puzzle, but there's value in it in terms of if you make adjustments here or there, or you're doing this, well, keep doing that, or this is a kind of part of your game you're lacking, and maybe if you do a little tweak here or there, it's going to lead to much better results, I think there'd be a much bigger buy. And I think we're eventually going to get there, especially with, you know, when the conversation shifts a bit more when public tracking data becomes more readily available. And we can start discussing that because I'm not sure if you've given a much thought, but I know like you do a lot of manually tracking yourself and you're writing about what the blue jackets do, but what I'm really growing fascinated

by and you know when you watch a team like Columbus, I think it has a lot of credence to it is like I think the next one of the next big market inefficiencies is going to be like better quantifying events that don't necessarily show up in final end product goals, for example, because there's so many little plays that happen that might not lead to a goal that might not ultimately get accredited to that player but in terms of like loose puck recoveries you know neutral zone or even defensive zone you know contact with your stick on the puck stuff like that like i think um that's going to go a long way in terms of um making players look better and then players in turn buying into it from that perspective so i'm really curious to see how that discussion is going to shift as more data becomes

available. Oh yeah, and it's funny. I was talking to one of the Blue Jackets actually about another player that he knows well, and we were just, you know, talking. And ironically, he and I always joke about, you know, oh, the analytics. And again, it doesn't bother me. But he was saying how he had read something about this other player that he's really close with, who's more of a defensively skilled player. And he said, hey, I read this thing in it, you know, it was really cool to see, basically he said, it was really cool to see that there are measures that make a quote-unquote non-offensive player look good, right? And I think that's right to your point is that, and I get this again, it is not these guys' jobs to sit and pour over data day in and day out. That is not what makes them better players.

And so I think it's easy for them to come to a conclusion that these are just more numbers that tie to goals and to purely offense. And to your point, don't measure all the things that they believe and all. often know, contribute ultimately to success. And when they can start to see, and we know how much hockey data is still even in its infancy, but when they can start to see that, no, we are interested in other areas of the game, we are trying to look at value in realistic and holistic ways, not just offensive ways. I agree with you. I think that, again, they don't have to accept it, but I think they'll see that it's quote unquote not out to get them, if you will. And it's not, it's not so a bad thing. And again, if they still think it's a bad thing, I don't care. But

I think that they are starting to see some of them are that we're at least trying to look at, like you said, like even when I'm tracking stuff, I'm like, gosh, it reveals things to me, even though I already know the questions I want to answer. It reveals even more to me. So much more value I see in certain players. And I just think opening those doors is just going to be fantastic to really understand what makes teams work. Well, yeah, think about, like, you know, to my puck retrieval's example, let's say we get that data. And first off, you can identify who's good at it and who's not and actually quantify it with numbers. But then you also have a sample to prove that it's actually like a repeatable skill, which I think it is for the most part.

Like it would make sense that certain player types would be better at kind of not necessarily being gritty or so on. But like kind of having that motor, I think of like a Zach Hyman type, for example, with Toronto, know who does a lot of the dirty work or even say like a Boone Jenner, for example, with Columbus, I think, and you can prove that that's actually a legitimate skill. Like, that's something that, you know, if you're not playing in a prime spot, like if you're Zach Hyman and you're playing full-time like he is now with Mitch Martin and Austin Matthews, you're probably going to get a lot of secondary assists just from tracking the puck down on the forecheck. And so I think that's going to lead to offensive production. But if you're playing on Columbus's third line and you necessarily

aren't playing with finishers, that might not, that skill might not be reflected in your point total, but it still might be a valuable for like just keeping the puck away from your own net, basically. And so I think in that case, there's going to be a lot of value to identifying those players and actually being able to put a number to the face. Absolutely. It's, it's so exciting to see, to think, like I said, you know, even little things like one of the penalty kill goals that the Blue Jackets have this year is, is the amount of time the power play spends in the, the zone. And they're actually overachieving in terms of their goal. They don't want the power play in the zone for more than 10 seconds at a time. And the majority of the possessions is happening in that

way. Now, of course, it took me measuring every time the puck crosses a blue line, which if you want to lose your sanity, please join me. But there's so much to see puck retrievals, pressuring as a simplification of measuring a forecheck. There's so many cool things that I'm just dying to be able to look at quickly. Because what I hate to is that when we're trying to show these messages, is that it takes so long to get the data right now, often the event or the moment has passed and it loses its impact, if that makes sense. Yes.

No, absolutely. It's a time is of the essence in that regard. But, okay, we can talk enough a lot about defense. I kind of want to shift to the other end of it. Because, you know, while it's great that the Blue Jackets are seconding goals against and actually in expect the goals against, which leads greatance to this is legit, it. They're 25th and expected goals for. They're 24th in terms of both power play and 5-1-5 scoring per minute. And so if we want to sort of transition this from like, this is a cool story and a fun

subplot to, okay, this is a legitimately dangerous team that beyond a goalie, just being remarkably hot, can actually make a lot of noise in the playoffs. We need to start looking at how this team's going to extract more offense out of the team and more goals. And so I guess from your perspective, I'm really interested, and we kind of touched on it at the start in terms of like, you know, the shockingly low shooting percentages and how that has started to regress a little bit. But, you know, this team also doesn't generate a lot of chances either. I think they're near the bottom as well in terms of the high danger chances they accumulate themselves. And so, you know, part of it is certainly when you lose a guy of Parnarans caliber beyond just the fact that, you know, he leads the league in five on five points and whatnot, like just his playmaking in terms of making other players better and getting the puck in space.

to them. We've seen that effect on Kemmackinson. But I'm curious, like, how much of this is the personnel where it's like, you can only fake it for so long. And if you don't have the horses, you're not going to be able to generate enough offense. And how much of it is truly that chicken and egg sort of thing where it's like for a team to be so good defensively, there's going to be a natural equilibrium by sacrificing a bit of offense because you're going to be not necessarily fully unloading your team on the rush. Maybe you're going to be coming back a a bit more sagging back. And so maybe that's going to lead to the lower offensive numbers.

How much of it is one and how much of it is the other do you think? Yeah. I mean, I think it's a little bit of both. I think as far as the focus on defensive play, I mean, we saw, there was a moment this season where John Tortorella told us that he went to Seth Jones and Zach Wrenski and said, I know I've said we need to be responsible defensively. If you guys want to go, go, jump. Right.

And that's when Zach just started scoring goals like a monster. So we know that that is part of it. I do think that now look, there is no replacing Artemey Panarin. He is an elite talent. But, you know, one of the things I'm watching this year is how close our guys to last season's totals. You know, a guy like Boone Jenner, he's at 50% of his goals and 40% of his assists last year.

But where they're hurting is, you know, a Cam Akinson. And I think that here, first of all, he has been injured. He just got back from injury and he looks a lot more like himself. I think this team did get kind of caught up a little bit too much mentally in the trying to prove something. We talked about that being a bonus at the start of this, but I think some of these guys got two in their heads about, we've got to stick it to everyone who doesn't believe in us. And it just got to, they were gripping their sticks. They weren't playing their normal way.

Cam Atkinson finally came out and said, he's like, and again, I, I had faith Cam could at least get close to 30, if not exceed 30 this year, because he's done it without Panarin as well. And he said, you know, I have to basically relearn how I was playing before I played with Panarin. And since he's come back in three games, he's got three goals and two assists. Maybe that break helped him. But he's way off. Josh Anderson, who is just such a talented, talented player, has been hurt, came into camp, not fully recovered from the shoulder injury he took in the playoffs against Boston.

And he's been out now for over a month. So he's got literally just two goals when he put up 27 last year. That's a big blow. So I think they have talent. I think that the talent that they have, the higher end of that talent has been underperforming. There have been some pleasant surprises in the talent coming up. Emil Bemstrom is kind of starting to find his footing.

Alexander Texier is doing all. all right, but he's now, of course, injured because everyone who's on the blue jackets has to be injured at some point. Eric Robinson has been a nice surprise. You've even got, you know, Nathan Kirby putting up three goals and five assists. So I think that the system is impacting it. I think some of the higher end talents have underperformed. Maybe they're rediscovering their game. And again, they're just going to have to let that defense play because a lot of times, you know, and again, I talk about, you know, the fans get so

excited. Oh, we won. I'm like, yeah, but all of the goals came from your defense. So, you know, it's, um, but again, if this is how they want to win, that's great. And I think this is what's going to be really interesting to watch is this team at the deadline now, because all signs point to that if Yarmo tries to make a move, it's going to be on the offensive side of the ice. This is a team that does not have a lot of assets for a trade. I mean, they spent a lot last year. And how much of an impact can you even get for a moderate price. So I'm really curious to see how that goes down. Yeah, the Atkinson point is so fascinating because, you know, he clearly scores 40 goals last year playing with Panarin and has a career season. And I think expecting that again was not

going to happen clearly. I think there's a middle ground there. You know, his first five one four, five goal this year came on December 5th. And now he's got six and 11 games since then with a injury, kind of sandwiching those two runs. But I think the point of like when you play with a guy like Panarin who handles the puck so much through the neutral zone and getting it into the offensive zone, it's a lot of like just get out of

the way and be in the right spot and when the puck comes to you shoot and for a natural shooter like Atkinson, that's I'm sure like a lovely spot to be in. Now when he's playing with different players who do less in terms of creating that way and attracting attention, it's like part of it is the defensive attention that's additional

that he's going to have to deal with now and part of it is like, I guess you're right, just kind of rewiring yourself to play a different way and maybe carry the puck more yourself. And so that's going to be fascinating to follow. What I do like now is it does feel like, and this kind of goes into that sort of like player type perspective where you're matching, matching passers with shooters and trying to create a symbiotic relationship where both guys can thrive. And, you know, right now they've got Nyquist playing with Bjorksrand, for example. They've got Bemstrom and Wenberg. And so it feels like I like that from like the goal. haven't come necessarily yet, but pairing those types of player types together is, I think,

a recipe for success because it's very easy to track it from like, this guy loves to pass and this guy loves to shoot. So let's just put those two guys together. And sometimes hockey can be that simplistic. Yeah, I agree. And I've liked seeing, I've really liked Gus Nyquist game. I didn't know a ton about him before he came to Columbus, but he is a guy who, and again, he's not going to, you know, light your hair on fire, but he is a guy who every game, if you watch him isolation. He's going to do something really creative and really, really smart to create a chance. And, you know, what I've been intrigued by, too, you know, we talk about on the good side offensively. At some point, I'll write this, but Pierre-Luc Dubois was my case study, right? Because this is the

only player in the entire NHL who had only ever played with Artemite Panarin. And so when you talk about the impact of losing that player, this was the guide. watch. And he's had a little bit of a lull in his overall play and to the eye test, in my opinion, of late. But this guy has only upped his game this year. And I think that's just a fascinating thing, first of all, just to watch and experience. And I think it's a great sign for this club, because while everyone has acknowledged, and there's some relearning on the Atkinson side of the impact of losing Panarin to see Dubois adjust at his age as the future number one center for this club, that is a hugely positive sign for this group. Yeah, well, he leads the team. I think he's

paced and part of this is Bjork Strand, Atkinson, and Wrenzki all missing time, but he's pacing them with like, he's on pace for 25 goals and 60 points or something. And it's like, on the one hand, it's, it's crazy that a team is in a playoff spot with those figures when there's, like a handful players that already have 30 goals and 70 points. And so, you know, it's, I guess it's all relative. But certainly, I mean, especially without like the benefit of, you know, cushier power play production, for example, like his 5-15 goal scoring is still there, I think, and it's important to remember he's 21 years old.

And so I think not that this was ever in question or a dilemma where he had to prove it this year, but it is a different scenario playing without Panarin and the fact that he has looked as good as he is, I think should alleviate any, like, even if it was a 0.1% concern about fully committing to them this summer because that is, like, beyond the goalies that we talked about earlier, like signing Pierre-Luc Dubois to Omega,

long-term deal this summer as an RFA is like the only sort of big crossroads moment for the Blue Jackets front office this summer. Totally. And, you know, a good sign there, too, is I don't know that talks have officially begun, but both sides have said they're willing to talk. There's none of this. No, we have to wait till the off-season type thing. You know, and I think this is an important negotiation for the Blue Jackets. They tend to be strong-handed. As Yarm O'Kek-Lykechalina has said, you know, we know that the player is going to leverage everything they can when they're UFAs, so we're going to leverage everything we can when we have control. I'd love to see this get done quickly and smoothly and just cement things because, again,

he's just proven to really, and I think it's fun for him too because this is a kid who even saved tweets from when he was drafted over Jesse Pooie Harvey. He takes a little bit from motivation. So I think to keep him connected and engrossed in the core of this team, is important. And I think, again, it's great that he's been able to prove that he belongs here. Now, the trickier one's going to be Josh Anderson, because after this year, and again, I think he is a special, special player.

He hates this comparison. He gets mad whenever we say it, but he's Tom Wilson-esque without maybe some of the questionable, more questionable hits that have happened in the past. But this season really hurts him, and he's got just one more RFA year. I can certainly appreciate from the player's perspective that he's going to want to go as short of term as possible because he wants to prove it year. This isn't going to be it for him. But the club is, of course, going to want some of those UFA years. And this was a negotiation that went, it struggled a bit the last time these two sides came together.

So, again, just a special player. And I'm really interested to see how that one shakes out. Well, and the funny thing is, I think when you look at a player that has, done what he's done over the past couple years, and then the year he's having this year shooting like 1.7% or whatever he is. You know, normally as an analyst, you'd look at that and you'd go, all right, other teams should be identifying this as a bylaw and see if they can steal him, but just based on the way, not only that he played last year, but I think the way the Blue Jackets approached the expansion draft, for example, where they, like, made a point of going out and

protecting them and how they clearly feel about him internally. It feels like that's not even really like as bad as this has been i don't think this is a scenario where he can be had and so it's like uh it's a fun little kind of pipe dream for other teams to be like oh let's go and steal his guy and he's going to score 30 goals for us next year but i just i think they they realize what's going on here and that um you know the injuries are one thing and and just kind of it seems like it's a season from hell from him and i guess you know when you're spinning it forward and thinking about uh the trade deadline and offensive boosts you know both him and texiate potentially coming back and and scoring the way we think they can based on our

talent level is big. I think the other thing is, um, you know, the draft capital is certainly concerning because they didn't pick till the fourth round last year. And I think, you know, when you don't have your second and third to begin with, like they did this do this summer, you probably don't want to be giving away your first unless you really feel like it's going to be a deal that moves a needle. But whether it's, you know, guys like to Foley or even guys with term on their deals like Zucker or Palmieri, like there's, if you need scoring help, especially on the wing, and that's like the one thing you want as a need come the deadline because that seems like that's sort of the most readily available player prototype. Yeah, for sure. And a couple people have said that too, that if some

of these guys can come back, it's almost like a deadline move without having to spend anything. And it would be nice. And particularly Anderson, of course, will come back motivated to reaffirm the kind of player that he is. Yeah, I just hope that it, again, it got contentious last time. I just hope that it's going to be interesting is all I can say. Yeah. No, I certainly can see how both sides would probably draw a hard line from like, especially with the way this year is gone where I think Anderson's camp would be like, let's throw this year out the window and Columbus would be like,

well, we can't because it's the most recent sample. And so it's going to be fascinating. But, you know, from Columbus perspective in terms of, you know, last year, I don't think we're going to see that again from like a crossroads perspective of having all these big questions. and figuring out how you want to approach the deadline. It's clearly a different scenario this year, but I do think if things keep going this way, and I think their schedule coming up here is pretty cake, and they can keep this run going,

how aggressive they get is going to be really fascinating, because on the one hand, I think there is, there's a formula here where, you know, we've seen it with Islanders most recently, where you can win this way and you don't necessarily need an offensive infusion. But at the same time, you know, they're in the Metro Division, and I don't know, if you know this, but it's pretty good this year. I've heard this. So, you know, it's crazy. Like, they're the fifth team in the metro right now, and they'd be leading the Pacific.

And I know, six of the top 13 or teams or whatever in the league are all in that division. So it's going to be tough because as good as, I'm sure as, like, high they feel about themselves. And, you know, this 15, 15, 2 and 4 stretch they're on was certainly, like, lead you to believe that they view themselves as not only, like, playoff bubble team, but it's, you know, team that can make some noise. It's, it's tough to, like, also move, uh, premium assets, especially what you did last, last trade deadline, uh, considering how it's like much, it's not, it's not, it's not foregone conclusion by any means that they would actually make it just because of how good the teams around them are as well. Yeah, totally. And I think,

you know, it, it made, as it was highly entertaining and wonderful to cover, um, but it made sense that if that was, if there was going to be a year to risk a lot, last year was the year. I mean, that was an apex of talent for Columbus, even before the acquisitions. So I agree. I don't think this year is that year. And I think Yarmo is smart enough to know the degree to which he should spend. And maybe he doesn't spend at all. But with no disrespect to this club, I think that the core is there, but there's still,

there are a couple years from the next time that it's time to say, should we really go all in? Because I just don't think it's here yet. Now watch them like do something insane here and I'll be proven wrong. Well, that's why I think a player like Palmieri makes a lot of sense because he's got that extra year on his deal. And I think, you know, stylistically he would fit a lot from that scoring punch, but also not just necessarily being like a pure empty calorie score either. But I said the same thing about the Islanders. And it's funny because both those teams are a very similar boat where like they're not in the most sure footed position right now. But they do a lot of things well and should make the playoffs.

and they have similar needs. And they also both have a ton of cap space. And so if they do really feel like they're an opportunity to presents itself, they can get creative. So it'll be able to make for a fascinating trade deadline because there are so many teams that are in it. And I'm curious to see how that goes.

But for the Blue Jackets, and I think this is to put a bow in a kind of full circle, after all the players, they lost in summer, I think the reason why there was reason for optimism beyond all the players that are already in place was this team's cap situation right now is so financially flexible.

I think if you look after the summer of 2021, so after next season, Cam Atkinson and Gustav Nyquist are the only two players they'll have under contract that are over 30 years old. And so this is a team that is either in its prime or heading towards it. And they don't, when you get contracts

like Dubinski's off the books and so on and so forth, you're not going to have anything where you're wondering, oh, this is money that we're not getting value for. And so it's a great spot to be. And now you've got to make the most of it, obviously. but I think like you're right in terms of evaluating where they currently stand in the league's hierarchy. I'm sure Yarmal is kind of looking at like that range of summer of 2021 where they're going to have so much money.

And a lot of these young players are going to be either as good as they are now or even better. And that's probably going to be the more optimal opportunity and sort of time frame to strike in. Yeah. I mean, you know, some of the names we mentioned just quickly, but Bemstrom and Texier, you know, when they're when they're really comfortable, Andrew Peake has been a revelation on the back end, just how quickly his game has elevated to an NHL level. A lot of, you know, that's been the silver lining of this whole thing, too. I mean, at one point, this team had 11 players that were on the opening night roster out due to injury.

And that's what's been incredible is that this run has continued with sometimes close to 10 guys out of the lineup, including a starting goaltender. And I think that I'm certainly not sitting here saying, well, they're fine. They don't need any talent. Look, they're perfect. But it's been nice to see some of these guys step up. I think of Vladislav Gavnikov, who's been on the roster all year. But, you know, I don't think he came touted highly enough for what he's turning into defensively also.

And I mentioned Eric Robinson, you know, Kevin Stenland showed a much more of an upside than I had seen from him in the past. So again, to all of that point, these guys are going to be at their peak in that window you mentioned. And that's going to be, I think, the next time to really, to go all in. Yeah. Well, summer 2021, we're going to be celebrating Elvis Merzincolns' second straight Vesna trophy. And Columbus Blue Jackets will be making some big moves. You heard it here first on the PDA guest. Allison, this was a blast.

I'm really glad we got to do this and deep-dye of this team because, you know, I hope we did it justice. There's so many layers to this. and, you know, things could certainly go off the rails. I think the PEOCast hasn't, has jinxed teams in the past, and, you know, they could go to 4 and 15 and really convert that. But for now, it's fun in Columbus, and I think both the fans and the players are sort of relishing, not necessarily proving people wrong,

but just kind of showing that just because players left this summer, they shouldn't have been ridden off. And so you're doing a great job covering this. I'm really enjoying your work this year, and let people know now where they can check that out from where they can follow you online. Yeah, for sure. You can find me at The Athletic.

You can search under Columbus or the Blue Jackets or my name. And I'm also on Twitter at Allison L. Beautiful. Well, Allison, this was a blast, and we'll make sure to do this again soon, okay? I always love it. These are some of my favorite conversations is bringing the nerddom and the real life perspective together

perfectly and beautifully like you always do. This is a blast. Talk soon. Take care. The Hockey Piediocat. with Dimitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com

slash hockey p-diocast.