The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 340: Predators or Western Conference Prey

Episode Date: February 11, 2020

Chris Mason joins the show to discuss the Nashville Predators' rollercoaster season, how much things have and haven't changed since the coaching switch, their identity crisis, how much they use their forwards, and how much the craft of goaltending has changed since he was in the league.See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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It's the HockeyPedioCast. With your host, Dimitri... Welcome to the Hockeypedo guest. My name is Amitra Filipovich. And joining me somehow for the first time to... everyone on this broadcast. We've been trying to make this work for, I feel like, years now. But finally, the Predators are in town. Again, my good buddy, Chris Mason on the show.

Mace, what's going on, then? Not much. Just rolling in Vancouver the other day and just enjoying the grind last game of a road trip. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's quite a grind. And I think this Predator season especially feels like it's, it's probably taking some years off your life, it feels right, right? And just in terms of the stress and the ups and downs, it feels like, I don't know, this is fair to say. I'm sure every team's fan base feels this way, but like the highs and the lows of

this team like when you catch them on their best night how good they look versus how good how bad they can look at times you're like this can't be the same team no it's it's been really weird and uh you know especially the way the season starts starting the off season you know they get mat duchayne and really got that you know other player in the top six to try to get that one two punch up top and uh you know that's something they've been pursuing for years now under david boyle yeah they really have like they've had you know the joel fly with johans and forsberg and arvinson is that top line that's been really good. But after that, it was kind of, you know,

pretty offensively, evenly distributed up and down the lineup. And they get off to this great start to the season. They were just scoring a bunch of goals. Weren't really playing great defensively, but Pecorine got off to an amazing start. So he's covering up, I think, a lot of the defensive issues the team was having. And then reality kind of set in about 11, 12 games into the season and just didn't start going well.

And it kind of fell off the rails then. They went through a really tough stretch. and it's been up and down ever since. It's, you know, they haven't won more than two games in a row since November. Yeah. So it's been a really tough season, but it's starting to turn around. I think they're starting to play a lot better lately, more, you know, better in the defensive zone. And it feels like this team, like you said, is coming to what, you know, what we thought they would be.

Yeah, I mean, they came in with obviously high expectations, especially after the summer they had and sort of the adjustments to the roster. It felt like, I don't know, for whatever reason, I'm not, maybe this more so from the outside than how they felt internally, but it felt like, you know, they made the playoffs the past couple years, but ever since that Stanley Cup run in 2017, it feels like there's been a bit of, maybe it's just unfair to them, kind of like a malaise from the outside where they were kind of the talk of the league in that season, right? And everyone was like, oh, my God, like Nashville is such a great hockey city. This team's so exciting to watch. They have all these young, fast-paced players. And then, you know, especially last year, like, how they went out in a round one against Dallas when they just ran into this like brick wall defensively.

Yeah. Like, there was at least some sort of an impetus to like, let's try to, with this same core, try to move some pieces around to get the most out of these guys while we still can. Yeah, it felt like, you know, after that great run, they win the President's Trophy, and then they win the Central again. You know, this is a team that's talked about every year to be, you know, compete for the Stanley Cup, right? And like you said, they had those two, you know, the disappointing loss to Winnipeg the year before, and then Dallas, like you said, they ran into Dallas there and lost in six.

They've been that team that just ever since that run just has had trouble getting over the hump. And, you know, that's why this year it felt like, all right, You got Matt Dushain now, you know, some of the issues with the goal scoring. And, you know, it's a lot easier to shut down a team if you're just trying to, you know, shut down one line offensively. And the fact that now they have these two lines in theory should be a lot better. But it's just for whatever reason. And it's the trouble, the most of the trouble is when they play at home. Right.

You know, it's weird because they should have one of the best home advantages. Yeah. And it's been like traditionally every year they, you know, they have one of the best home records in the league. That's a tough place. But for whatever reason, I don't know if it's, you know, just the pressure at home. of teams are actually having trouble. Winnipeg's having trouble. All these teams that are tough buildings to play Calgary.

Same thing. I think it kind of speaks to a parody of the league where it seems like in any given night, like any team. I mean, we just saw last night or yesterday afternoon, Detroit beats Boston. I know. And you're just like, how does that happen? There's no way that should ever happen. Yeah, to pull within 48 points of them in the standings.

It's crazy. Do you think part of it though is, is, this might be kind of reading or psychoanalyzing too much, but it's kind of like trying to figure out the identity because I always thought that the team with the personnel they have, I mean, you know, when they're firing on all cylinders, there's the Oce and Ellis in the back end and then obviously with, you know, Forsberg and Arbetson, like, it is, it should be a high octane kind of running gun offensive team, but I don't know, part of it might be coaching, part of it might be just like how teams feel that in today's NHL you come playoffs, you do need to play a different way to be more successful and maybe seeing

Dallas firsthand and what they did to them, maybe part of it was like, we see the personnel, we know that we can be that, but we want to kind of play the long game and, and be more defensively sound. And sometimes we saw it with the Leafs, for example, or Mike Babcock where, like, if you have the horses, but you're trying to do something else, sometimes it can be kind of a clash of styles. Yeah, that's a great point.

And I always think that, too, and you look at the two teams last year, Boston and St. Louis, you know, yeah, they both have some offensive weapons, but they play really stingy defensively. And I think any of the teams that have a chance, you know, Dallas was a goal away or missed chance away from moving on as well. So they could have very easily been, you know, headed that way, too.

but I think all the teams that end up in the playoffs, you know, like Toronto for whatever, but they just, they don't play good defense. They have the guys and you just, you can't win like that in a playoff series, I think, especially when you go up against one of those other teams.

And I think now Nashville's, like you said, is starting to forge their identity in that mold. John Heinz has them playing really well. Defensively went to more of his own defense. The guys are in front of that, protecting the house. You know, they got running around, I think, a little bit, you know,

earlier in the air with a man on man. and it's just tough to keep up. Yeah, you don't see too many teams playing. I remember, like, the Patrick Wall Ave's, when he was coaching now when he was playing, we're doing that. And after a while, you see, like, the players are just, like, so disoriented by it

and it leads to a comedy of errors. Yeah, it's tough. It's because it's, you know, it's unpredictable. I feel teams started, you know, they know we're going man to man, everybody scouts everybody, obviously. So, you know, they'd come in and they would take our defensemen up high to the blue line.

Then you have forwards in front of the net. And I feel like in that system, if one guy loses, you know, there's just constant. motion. It's tough. If one guy loses their guy, you're giving up a great A scoring chance. And the other thing is, when you get the puck, it's, you know, it's tough to give it to someone and get out of your end, you know, efficiently all the time because everybody's all over the place. So I find now with the structure that they're playing with, they're able to get the puck and then

move it up and get out a lot cleaner. Well, what do you chalk that change up to though? Because it is weird to, you know, it's not like necessarily a new coach came out at the start of the season. It was like, we need to completely uproot everything and change it. Like you had period of lab, you had. I think. think he was like the third or fourth longest tenured coach in the league at that point. And they had past success clearly in terms of winning games, especially in the regular season. And so it's weird to see, and with the goaltending as all, we can get into kind of the changes and the adjustments they've made, but you see in today's game that if you're not getting the goaltending, the coach is usually the first

one to go. And that was first, like, just the, I think the bottom five teams and same percentage all basically changed their coaches at some point this season. And that's kind of a case study of that. And so it's weird to, you had the same goalies, you had the same system, you had the same personnel and the performance was just so drastically different. It's kind of weird. It is kind of weird and that's, you know, we've been trying to figure this out the entire season. It's a million dollar question. It's a million dollar.

Yeah, exactly. If we could figure out maybe you and me would have a coach job in the league. But it's, it's been tough. And like you said, that's the really mysterious part about it is, is they do have the same personnel. They have the same coach. They've got great goaltenders. They've got on paper, probably the best team that they've ever had.

But for whatever reason, that's, you know, you touched on the. parody of the league. It used to be, you know, whatever, five, ten years ago, you could pick probably four or five teams, and those would be the teams that one of them was going to win the Stanley Cup. Now it's, I mean, you could... Put the names in a hat and come out.

You get in, like, you know, anyone could win it. And it's awesome for hockey, but it really, you know, really, for teams that have that window of success, it's tough. It's not like you have a 10-year, you know, window. You've got these opportunities and you've got to win because every team, you know, the rebuilds are quicker because young players come in now and they're, you know, they're star players.

Yeah. And, like, right away and it can drastically change your team within two years. Well, that's what I say always. Whenever we hear, it feels like every year, there's kind of like one young upstart team that has, like, most of their main contributors are on ELCs. And there's a lot of like, oh, well, you know, let's draw this out and be patient. And maybe five years from now, we're going to really win the title. And it's like, you should really try to capitalize now, especially when your best players

are making money. I mean, look at the Predators now, for example, like having Roman Yosi and Ryan Ellis on these like amazing, they were making what, like seven million combined or eight million combined or something before. And now both guys, Ellis is on his new deal. Yosey next year kicks in a nine million. And it becomes a lot tougher. It's not impossible to win.

Certainly you can find creative ways. But when you have like star contributors making less than they're supposed to be making, that's your opportunity to strike as opposed to like playing this long game in the Yeah, exactly. Well, because then you can add and you've got a lot more flexibility. And it's great. And like you said, you don't have to, you know, move one of those guys because eventually that's, you know, that's dead to get rid of P.

Suban and bring him Matt Dushan, it gets a little trickier, you know, the longer you go with these guys. And Vancouver's in a very similar situation in terms of the- Yeah, with Patterson and Hughes. Yeah, like, I mean, and who expected Vancouver to be where they are compete for a Pacific Division title. Yeah. You know, and they got these young players.

And again, it's that turnaround. You know, everyone probably, I don't even know if anyone picked Vancouver to even make the playoffs. They were kind of like a trendy, like sleeper pick, but I certainly thought that, you know, they added a lot this summer and they certainly went for it the past a couple years. They haven't made it. it's kind of like this market they need to do something but yeah i think it's certainly surprising i think also speaks to like what you were talking about earlier that kind of parody and sort of like any

any given night like where the pacific i mean if they're all these teams are in the metro maybe be a different story but yeah the opportunity presents itself so it's up to someone to uh to capitalize and we should mention talking about the canucks we're like in the bowers of rodgrey yeah recording in some dingy little like room closet or something so yeah the predators are outside kicking a soccer ball around preparing for the game tonight so if uh if someone comes in we might have some cameos No, okay, so let's get into this more then. So I'm really intrigued, especially we have like 13 games or so now under John Hines. And I was looking at the numbers and it feels like, you know, the performance still leaves a lot to be desired.

I think there's seven and six, I believe. And it feels like they're, you know, they take two steps forward. They win a couple games. And all of a sudden they lose. Just take those steps back. And it feels like they're like stuck in mud for whatever reason and can seem to get out of it. What other changes beyond going back, changing the defensive system trying to make easier on goalies? like what are your early returns so far on Heinz

and sort of the adjustments that coaching staffs made? Well, I think the biggest one for me is his issue when he came in, kind of like what you were saying earlier is like, hey, these guys know how to play. You know, it's not, that's not, we've got the players to win. It's about the attitude and their mentality.

And I really felt like, you know, this year, it's just confidence, no matter what you think these guys are, NHL players, they're the best players, how do they're not confident? Well, you just tell in their game at times, they're fragile. Sometimes they'll give up a goal and then there'll be an eight minute stretch where they kind of fall apart and then they're chasing the game and, you know, they have to make a big push or are able to come back sometimes. But I feel the way that they look now, the last probably three,

four games, I really feel like they're starting to develop an identity. You talked about how important that is earlier and that's the thing. I don't think this team had an identity. I don't, I really couldn't tell you what kind of team they were, but now I can start to see that they're going to be that team that's, you know, of the harder working teams. That's kind of that's been there for today. That's, you know, Nashville Predators have always been considered a hard working team. And this year, it's kind of been in and out at times. And I think that the compete level from their top players is starting to get a lot better in the investment. You know, there's always the guys that are going to, you know, Bo Horvats and, you know, we got Nick Benino, Victor. Those guys are always going to work hard,

Rocco Grimaldi. They're always every single game, but you need, you know, Ryan Johansson to buy in. You need him to work hard and be emotionally invested. And he's starting to do that. And it just, it's really contagious. So I feel, although the seven and six, the first game was a throwaway because he just got there that day

and then I think it was Boston. Yeah, that's tough. But lately I just liked the way that it's, they played three solid. They lost Hamilton last game, but they played a good enough to win. They played a really solid game.

So it's, it's starting to turn around in my opinion. Like that Capitals game where they scored on themselves like two or three times a pinino goal. And then most recently in Edmonton, the big goal where McDavid shoots it on the power play

basically goes off to Harrison in and it feels like for whatever reason. it's not like the most analytical thing. I don't. It's just like, it's one of those things. You just raise your hands and you're like, what can you do? Exactly. It's a mess.

Yeah. The one grievance I do have is Philip Foresberg's usage. And, you know, I joke on Twitter. I call him Philipovich Forrestberg. And I love watching that guy. I think he's one of the most electric players in the league. And for whatever reason, he's never been the most like heavily relied upon a 5-1-5 guy. You know, they try to get him out on offensive situations, especially on the power play in high-leverage

scoring areas. But, you know, he's playing like, there's games where it's like 15 minutes and 15 minutes a night and I'm just like I just want them to fully unleash him like first there was Austin Matthews this year under Mike Babcock and I was like when you have a guy who can put the puck in the net like just play him 20 21 22 minutes especially if you're trailing and you need my recurring issue both with Lavial out of the start of the year and then now under Heinz where it's like they need to unleash this guy like as much as you can rave about Rocco Grimaldi and how hard he plays and it's like the talent level is just such a disparity and I get that you want as especially as a new coach you want players to earn their I'm I ice time and you want them to earn their opportunity and not just rest on their laurels and their god-given talent. But with Forsberg, it's like, man, I just want this guy to be up there in usage and be leading the league in scoring because he's that talented. Well, that, and that's the thing. And those players, they need those minutes. Yeah. You know, they're not used to playing the 1314. Yeah. It's in having success. They need to play, you know, the 17, 18, 19, 20. You know, you look at McDavid and

dry cell, they're, they're defensive minutes. I mean, they're 22 minutes. If you're going to go down, go down firing haymakers are their best players. Exactly, right? And it's, I think that's the thing, but it's, it's been a weird season in terms of that too, because there's always seems like there's one guy they, they're trying to get going. Like right now, it's Victor Arvinson. So he's playing with Forsberg. So then because Arvinson isn't going, then Forsberg, you know, gets punished a little bit. Early in the year, it was Kyle Turris. I want to try to get Kyle Turris going out. Now he's playing a lot better. He's playing those minutes. But, you know, but the guys on that line, they get punished because the coach doesn't want to put that guy out there at that certain time. But I agree with you. I think, you know, these guys, eventually the Murphy's law, it's going to come. They're going to score goals, but they need those extra three, four, five minutes a game. Well, and the strange thing is, they started off the year with it where they were just riding that Duchyne and Granland-Forsburg line and they were one of the most kind of dynamic offensive lines in the league. And then for whatever reason, they went away from it. And maybe it is as simple as like they're trying to

use Forsburg, kind of like that osmosis, it's like, quickly struggling, just play him with him and try to get that guy going because he's that good and he can make everyone around him better. But it is also, it's like a double-edged sword where, on the one hand, it's like maybe we should be using Forsberg in more advantageous situations for himself as opposed to worrying about the guys around him. Yeah, exactly. And that's, you know, it's, it's just, it's been just a weird year. And, you know, even, even Dushain's minutes, you know, a lot of those guys, too, they're

used to play in the 18, 19, you know, minutes a game. And for Phil right now, you can just, it almost feels like there's good stretches in a game. And then it, but it's hard for these guys to get into it, I think, because, you know, there's guys that are, you know, third, fourth line guys that they're used to, they're used to, you know, they've trained themselves to be able to take those breaks or if they're going to get their penalty kill minutes and not play on the power play, so be it. But the Foresbergs of the world, you got to get him out there all the time. And you know, you got to get, you know, you got to maybe put him in some situations. You're not normally going to put him for him to get his minutes. Well, that's kind of been a, yeah, I think that's a great point in terms of like finding as a coach, like, little moments here or there, whether it's like right after a penalty kill where like you load up the top. or just trying to squeeze in every single extra shift you can because the likelihood of him generating a goal is so much higher than some of these other lines. And I guess that's been my issue with both coaching staffs. If I was in John Hines's year, I'd be just preaching like, just go down swinging with your best guys. I think H.O. coaches sometimes, listen, they're a lot smarter than I. They know much. They've

forgotten much more about the game than I'll ever know. But just from the outside, it's like, I get that the game is so fast now that you want to be able to have that depth and rely on four lines and keep everyone fresh and keep everyone engaged in a particular game. But teams, I feel like, if there's one thing you can take from the NBA, it's like rely on your star players a bit more where just get your top guys out there. I think the Predators have had like the most tightly condensed usage of 5-1-5 in terms of like their fourth line plays almost as much as their first line at times. And it can be infuriating.

I know like the more analytical portions of the Predators fan base are pulling their hair out online every night where it's like, come on, let's get these tough guys out there. And I don't know what the answer is other than like you just got to trust those guys a bit more. Yeah, it's tough, you know, and you're right. And it's, the, the Preds do have a very deep four-line team. But, but again, you know, the disparity of ice time between the first and the fourth isn't that much compared to, you know, most other teams. Yeah, you look at the oilers and it's like, on any given night, it's like, Judge Adela and McDavid are out there for at least the third of the game, if not, like, almost half. Yeah, and they're playing on separate

lines now. It's used for that. But again, they always find the opportunities to get them out there. and they seem to handle. Obviously, they're both one, two, in the league and scoring, and those guys are just crazy. So I'm sure they're maybe calling the shots there in Emmington. But, yeah, I think, you know, as the season goes on, I think they're going to have to start doing that because, like you said, at the end of the day,

those are the guys that are going to get, the Preds are in the outside right now. Those are the guys that are going to get you to the promise land. Well, yeah, it's so tight. Like every point right now, I mean, if you look at it, it feels like those top three in the Central are probably going to be the top three in some order right now. But that wild card, I mean, whether it's Winnipe,

Arizona, Calgary, you know, Minnesota and Chicago are climbing into it. It's like, and every night it seems like it's really tricky because on the one hand, it's like, oh, it's only three or four points difference. But all of these teams seem to be playing each other every night. And there's so many three-point games that like making up at this point, like every single passing day makes each point like that much more difficult to overcome. Yeah. I mean, this is the best time of the year because like you said, and it just flip-flops every single night.

You know, and you got the three-point games. And I think, you know, for the Preds, they have a lot of, I think they have 13 games. against the Central Division. They've got a lot of Central Division matchups against those teams that are ahead of them and behind them. So it's crazy, but it's all these, I love when there's so many teams in the battle

because every game is just so huge and you're watching other games all the time and the outcome. And, you know, it's not a situation that Nashville figured that they'd be in. You know, this is a team that was supposed to be. Yeah, their pencil in is one of those three centuries. Yeah, you know, they're going to win the Central

or compete to win the Central Division. But, you know, you just got to embrace where you're at. And I think, you know, you've, we all seen this. The timing is so crucial when you're going down to the playoffs. And I feel like, you know, optimistic about the way that Nashville is playing right now. And I feel their best, they haven't hit their stride and played their best hockey. So this is a team that's more than capable of putting a pretty good stretch together.

Yeah, of all those teams I listed, I certainly believe that their best game is better than all those teams. But like being able to consistently reach that level is what separates the best teams from the wild card team. Yeah, that's been the story of the season. Yeah. And I think it was November. It might have been October, but where they haven't won more than two in a row. Yeah.

So it's been like that. It's been just an emotional grind for this team. But it could be something that's going to pay dividends. How do you feel, where do you stand on the, like, the current system with not only the seating, but like how the points are divvied out at? You know, it was certainly a bit different when you were playing in terms of obviously the divisional formats in the one through eight. Like, on the one hand, I think the league loves it because. it really kind of heightens that sort of the parody and the fact that, you know, as we approach the deadline now, like, there's like four or five teams that are sellers and every other team could conceivably talk itself into like, we're in the playoff hunt. Maybe we can add a piece or two here and our fans should keep coming to games and buying jerseys and being excited about this team. And so the league loves that because it's kind of more inclusive of everyone. But on the other hand, I think as a player would probably drive you nuts a little where like you don't necessarily control your destiny nearly as much because there is so much volatility and randomness. And if you, you you're just stuck in a really tough division one season.

You might be like looking, if you're a metro team right now and you're, let's say on the flyers, for example, and you're like, we would be leading the Pacific Division. I know. And you must just be like, every day, you just would be like, ah, this sucks so much, the fact that we have all these crazy good teams and head of us. I know, it is crazy.

I mean, there's, there's been a lot of good ideas thrown out there about, you know, restructuring playoff format. I find that, you know, for our situation in Nashville, the, you played, I think it was two years ago. we played Winnipeg in the second round. And that felt like it was like, I know that Winnipeg wound up losing to Vegas, but that felt like it was like at the time,

it was like this feels like this is the best team in the West representing. Yeah, well, they were the top two point total in that league, I think. So it was one and two and they played in the second round. I think that's what it was. But I just, I don't feel, I know it's, it gets those to be it. You get that matchup. You might get the Emmington Calgary, which everybody would love, those types of things. But I just think in terms of you're playing 82 games,

you should have, if you're the top team, like you should have the, advantage every round to play the lowest seed is how I think it should be because, you know, that series right there, you get the top two teams in the NHL playing each other in the second round. So that's, I feel like they could do the one to eight thing again. Oh, I would love to see the team start picking their opponents. I know they're never going to do that. People are going to get offended. I get it, but like, oh, imagine the storylines of like, especially the first team and you pick like what you think is the worst team. You're basically implying to do it like a draft style. Oh, yeah. And imagine how to post that on national.

Oh my God. That'd be hilarious. are you watching that. Oh, yeah, for sure. All right. So let's talk more about positive stuff. Then I feel like, you know, the tone's generally been optimistic because we do feel like this team can turn around. But, you know, I want to talk more about Roman Yosey because it felt like the way the season started, John Carlson built such a head start for himself in the Norris. And it feels like sometimes that's the key to winning individual awards because people just sort of check out from the conversation where it's like, I think there's still people now. They're just like, oh, yeah, John Carlson because of his hard start and leading and scoring and whatnot.

It's like it's his and we're just not even going to revisit it. But I think based on the impact and just it feels, Yosey's checking so many boxes this year. I mean, he's leading the team in scoring by I think like 16 points. You know, he's, I think he's four seconds behind Thomas Shabbat for most usage in the league. He's playing over 26 minutes. He's playing, I think, you know, as critical of how John Hines is using his forwards.

I think part of it is Ryan Ellis being out for most of that time. But he's been just leaning on Yosey in these games. where he's playing north of 20 minutes at 5-1-5 every single night. I think he's like fifth in shot attempts behind like Ovechkin, Pasternak-McKinnan. You just typically don't see defensemen other than Brent Burns in that discussion. And I know there's been some conversation in the past, though, like how much he gives away defensively versus offensively with his style

and whether his 5-1-5 impact was as big. But this year it's right up there with any of them. And I think both him and like Alex Petrangelo are right there in the conversation with John Carlson. But I think people sort of nationally just chalked. up to Carlson because of that hot start. Yeah, well, that's what happens. You get a guy and, hey, you know, tip of the cap to Carlson, he's having a fantastic year and he's doing good things,

but he did get off to such a start and everyone, you know, basically just given the award already, right? Right. But I do think, you know, Roman Yose, there's a lot of good defensemen. I don't think there's any defenseman that's like him in terms of the way that he's able to get the puck and skated up the ice. Yeah, his transitional impact. His transition.

And the way that he just, he, he's, skates through and he skates out of the zone, into the zone, and he creates offense almost all on his own. Like he's in a way, he's McDavid-esque, you know, as a defenseman. Obviously, he's not quite, you know, that speed burst, but he's really, he's so good on his edges, the way that he handles the puck and the way that he self-generates chances. He doesn't need, doesn't need any support really to generate a chance. And I don't think there's any defensemen that play like that.

A lot of, a lot of the, you know, John Carlson's of the world are, you know, they're joining the rush or, you know, they're handing it off to Alex Ovechkin. and he's a good playmaker, but I feel the way that Roman generates his offense is he's the best in the league at it. And defensively, like you said, he hasn't been compromised this year either.

Yeah, it's, I guess it's kind of like a strange football analogy, but if you're like, John Carlson feels much more like your traditional like quarterback defenseman, especially the power player where he's sitting back and he's, and he's passing it. Whereas if anything,

Roman Rose, he's like a quarter running back where it's like he just takes the block and then he just kind of goes first through the hole himself. And you're right. That just like sort of one man fast break. of his, it is sort of very Connor McDavid-like in terms of how much he can create from scratch. And even at the end of shifts, and I think what the most impressive thing is, you know, we still haven't nailed down like the optimal amount of minutes for number one defensemen

in terms of like, because you don't want these guys taking shifts off or preserving the energy. Like Ryan Suter is the best example where it's like there was times where he's playing north of 30 minutes. And if you know that every night you're going to be playing that in a second of a back-to-back, it's human nature to sort of pick your spots more and maybe not go full blast on every single shift. Whereas with a guy like Gryosi, he has to and he's managed to do it while still playing that crazy, crazy workload of minutes. Well, exactly. And you talk about the skating, I'd like to get a, you know, once they start doing the-distance covered or something.

Yeah, the distance covered and those types of things that are coming if they do, the player track, and which will be really cool, the speed and the amount of skating and the distance covered. And I feel like he covers more than almost anybody, especially a defenseman, because he's not a stationary guy. He's constantly moving, leading the rush. and when he does that, and he gets a puck and he's in the offensive zone, and he just, he handles it like,

you know, like a Connor McDavid or a dry saddle that really, you know, demands that the puck on his stick all the time and he makes plays and he's just such a smooth, graceful player, but,

you know, he's definitely got to be, I gotta get more into the analytics. I want to start making a push for his Norris candidacy, but there's so many, you know, deeper layers of analytics that I think he really excels in

if you're comparing him to the other top guys. Well, it is strange. it's funny how this stuff changes because, you know, I think in the past couple of years, and last year he had a bit of a down year in terms of his underlying numbers. And, you know, the eye test, he's always been, I think, one of the most impressive defensemen in terms of you just watch him. You're like, that guy, he can skate like anyone else.

He's good. But then for whatever reason, part of it might have been because of how often he was on the rush. And maybe he felt like he could do so because of who he plays with and how loaded their defense was. But it was giving back a bit defensively. And so it felt like the eye test favored him much more than analytics. Whereas this year, if anything, it's like... The more traditional counting stats, Carlson has the leg up in terms of the production and the power play he plays on. But if you just look at how much Yosi generates for his team and some of that underlying impact,

if anything, he has like the best case of the bunch, which is really fascinating to see how much that pendulum swung. Well, that's kind of cool, too. And that's, I'd like to find out more about that too, because obviously the team and the supporting cast around you has got a lot to do with, you know, Carlson as well. He's got some, you know, obviously some elite offensive weapons, someone the best in the world. Get him to get out of the way. Yeah, yeah. Seriously, right? But no, the way that Yose's, you know, he's the one leading the charge all the time.

And he's, it's not, you know, it's not a support where he's getting second assists and those types of thing. It's primary assists. It hasn't scored in a while, but he still, he's still. He shoots so much. He shoots so much. And I don't know if it's, it's been a while since he's had a goal. But again, and, you know, he's doing it with O'Reynalls for a big chunk of this time. Well, I think that's what's doubly impressive where Ellis was actually, you could argue in the start of the year,

having a more impressive season. I think he was actually like the number one player in the entire league and the goals above replacement metric and like his value in terms of like just he's so disciplined, doesn't take penalties but still draws them as a defenseman, defensive impact, moving the puck, everything. He's like checks all the boxes. And he goes down after that nasty hit from Corey Perry and Ellis, sorry, Yose's usage has gone up, but he's also playing with Yanuk Weber, Dante Fabro, clearly being asked to do more and not having that reliable guy behind him and Ellis to help out defensive.

as well. So like just everything that's been placed on his shoulders, the new contract. Yeah. You know, the captaincy, it's like, it feels like all these like sort of intangible things as well where you're like, oh man, the pressure could really get to you. And so I think the fact that his performance has gone up, if anything, is, you know, really impressive. Well, I, I agree with you. And I think you mentioned the contract. You're being the captain. And then, you know, you throw on top of that, your team's having a, you know, a stinker of a year in terms of, you know, where they were supposed to be. It's been, it's been a tough year for that, for this team. And, you know, when you're the captain, and you're the one, you're always in the meetings with the coaches

and you're always trying to, you know, find a way to get your team going and it can be really taxing. And, you know, that's a lot of weight and a lot of pressure on a player, but the fact that he's able to play at the level he's playing, I mean, it's just, it's incredible. And he's just been so consistent right from the start of the year on a team that's been completely. Anything but. Yeah, and that's why it's so impressive.

The fact that he's, you know, he's single-handedly at times, kept this team in the race just by the way that he's played. the way that he, you know, manages a game. And he's that kind of a player that can, you know, single-handedly decide outcomes of a hockey game. And he's done that. Yeah, his imprints are all over. It seems like every single night. Well, let's kind of spend this forward then, you know, last year the Predators were pretty aggressive in terms of buying at the deadline. You know, they made that swap of Fiala for Granland, which felt like clearly more of a win now move. They traded for Wayne Simmons. Like it felt like they were trying to shore up

their power play was a big issue. So they were trying to fix that as well. This year, they're in a much more precarious position where they're certainly in the, that bucket of teams that, you know, they're on the playoff bubble. They're competing for the wildcard based on their past standards. I feel like they'd be selling themselves in the fan base short if they kind of just like threw in the towel and traded some of these guys. But at the same time, you look at the rental market and there's very few impressive names available, I think. And, you know, you have Granlin as an expiring contract. You have Craig Smith. You have even, you know, we see depth defensemen like Matt Irwin or Yannick Weber occasionally at draft picks or prospects

back. And so I think for David Poil, it's going to be so fascinating to see how he balances that and whether how confident he feels in this team i think he's talked openly in past interviews about like he obviously liked this group and he's not going to like trash them but he's like they kind of need to show me something between now and the deadline for me to feel confident as a buyer or let alone just not to sell and so juggling all those things it's going to be really fascinating you see it's going to be very telling of how he feels about this group uh based on how he acts between now and i think the february 24th deadline yeah that's you know it's it's so funny too because they win a couple games like oh they're going to be

They're going to buy. They're going to buy. Everyone's searching up like Chris Kreider. How can you get on his groove? All these types of players, right? But it really, I honestly, I don't know what they're going to do. I don't think they're going to, regardless, even if they win, you know, five, six in a row, they're going to make a big splash and go for that big name.

Right. I could be wrong. But this next couple weeks is going to, we'll really tell the story in terms of which way he's probably going to be leaning. But I don't think, you know, it's tough. All these teams add, and I just don't feel that there's ever that one. that big superstar ad that really ends up paying off. It's sometimes the depth guy or if you need to, you know,

want to shore up your defense or maybe, you know, a penalty killer or whatever, the case may be or a third line guy. But, you know, the Preds are in a tough situation where if, you know, if you do decide that you're going to try to go for it with this team and they're, you know, you trust that they're getting in, you hang on to Granlin and you hang on to Smith and maybe try to re-sign one of them or you take your chance at losing them. at free agency or you think, well, I don't know if we have it this year. And, you know, you try to get some assets back for guys that you're probably not

going to be able to re-sign or one of them anyway. Yeah. And you'd think, I mean, especially, I mean, I think the price would be lower on Smith, but it feels like that. That's why, you know, there's probably like 15 GMs right now constantly calling it, but they're asking about those guys and he slot right in on your third line and instantly generate some offense for them. And so, yeah, it's tough.

If you feel like, you know, especially with the way they've used their players, you can make the argument that, like, because they have. The usage hasn't really been there where like how much would the team drop off as opposed to if you could get, you know, premium draft pick for those guys. It'd be interesting. But yeah, it does kind of send a tough message as well where if you're kind of throwing in the towel in a season when you're this close to the wild card. Yeah, that's, you know, David's, you know, obviously he thinks about his decisions at nauseam and he would be well thought out. And, you know, it'd be, you know, one like last year, I guess would be the Fiala Granlin. It was kind of a sideways trade.

Right. in terms of production, Kevin's, you know, nice young player that's got the potential and, and, you know, higher end, more point production, more established guy. So, but it was kind of a, you know, good trade for both kind of things. So there's those kinds of deals that are out there, too, I think. But it's, I'd like to be a fly on a wall for those conversations,

so to see how it goes down. But I bet there are teams calling just, you know, throwing out the feelers right now. Yeah. Yeah, I'd like to, man, it's tough because I get that, especially in John Hines, they want to be more defensively solid. They want to kind of throw their goalies a bone and make life easier for them. But like on the one hand, if I was running this team, I'd just fully commit on the speed end of it and just try it.

And not necessarily outscore all your problems, but like really double down on that type of part of the game. And so I don't know. We'll see what they do. But I wish they, like it felt like two years ago when they were at their absolute apex, like they were really like embracing that. And for whatever reason, they've kind of gone away from it over the past couple of years. Yeah, I think, you know, I don't know if it's, you know, that the way that they used to play that we were a fast team. team, but they've never really had a team that, you know, they've kind of scored by a committee. Yeah.

You know, I think they've only last point of game guy was Paul Korea. Yeah. Back in my day, a long time ago. So I feel like, but there are a team, though, that can really come out at yet waves and the skating ability, especially when they, they've got their top four, when Ryan Ellis is there. It's just a really tough team. They had that five-man attack where they'd get in the offensive zone and everybody's interchanging. You know, it was really exciting, fast-paced type of hockey. and, you know, you spend more time

and the other teams end, chances are. You probably go to win. You might give up a few chances here and there, but, you know, that's why you pay the goalies and they've, you know, this year's been tough for them, but in past, they've, you know, they've bailed the teams out when they're able to play that way and give up those types of chances,

but they, you know, they dictated the majority of the hockey games. Okay, well, let's talk about goaltending. I want to pick a brain about some stuff. Do you think when you look at the landscape, now of the league and the position and sort of demands of it and how much things have changed, to, you know, more and more teams are embracing. 1B, you're kind of getting away from the

65-70 starts per season goalie, but also, like, the demands in terms of the players are more talented, the skaters are more talented, where the shooting talent is with the equipment, but also like the training, you look at Forsberg up close every night, but, you know, Austin, Matthew, so on and so forth, these guys are shooting from all these crazy angles where, you know, most goalies can still, if you get set and you can see the shot

and you can prepare for it, you know what's coming, you're going to stop it. But these guys, now don't really give you an opportunity to do so. So do you, on the one hand, like, do you feel like you came into the league at the right time? Do you wish you came in a bit earlier, or do you wish you were coming in now where it's like, oh, maybe, you know, with just, it seems like it's more fun of playing or so on and so forth. Like, well, how do you feel about that? Looking back, like in hindsight and retrospect, and just thinking about where it is now versus where the league was at when you were playing. Yeah, you know what? It's really cool. And like you said, the talent level

at every position, it's just never been higher. You know, the one thing about goaltending, though, is I feel back when I played, and even more so before I played, I feel, which I really thought was awesome, is every goalie kind of had their distinctive style. So, you know, you would know who it was if you could be far away and you watch them play,

and you know, that's, you know, that's Grant Fear. That's Andy Moog. You know, they play together two of the most different goalies. Yeah. But, you know, they were very distinct. Now I think everybody looks kind of the same. Yeah, it's more cookie cutter. It's more cookie cutter.

it's because of the goal-tending coach as well. Right. You know, it's, it's just, it's analyzed and broken down, and these guys are so good, and they found formulas of what works. And, but, like,

you know, on the flip side of that, these, the way that the leagues doing the rules, you know, the stick on the hands to penalty, guys have more time to make, you know, plays, their skill levels through the roof. Everyone, every single guy in the league's got a bomb of a shot. Yeah. You know, like everyone.

And it's, uh, it's, I would have liked to, I like the way goalies play right now. I just think it's really, it is cookie cutter, but, you know, there's a few throwbacks. Mike Smith is still, you know, one of those kind of guys, Jonathan Quicker, a few guys. But I don't know, error to play, man, I don't know, it'd be tough facing, like, Connor McDadee. I don't know how this guy just makes it. Well, and you look at the moves he's been, his doing recently, he's doing that mover, like, because he blows by the defense so effortlessly through the neutral zone and into the zone,

but then when he approaches the goal, you're probably, you're seeing this kind of like comet coming that you a million miles per hour and you have to sort of pick and you're leaning one way. You have to move with them. He does this little like chip now where he sort of like lofted over the goalie in the opposite direction where he's leaning. Yeah. And it's like. Because he knows a goalie has to push to the other side.

Otherwise it'll go past you and go around you. It's unbelievable. Yeah. His hands, he tried that on Soros. Soros actually stopped the last game. But he scored the highlight. But he does it from both sides. He can do it on his forehand or backhand.

Yeah. But he's, you know, he's a unique guy though. There's not many, not many like him or dry saddle for that matter. Although it feels like, I mean, the goalies have kind of adapted as well. Not to say that goalies from your era were unethletic or anything, but like it feels like even now, I mean, Saros is such an anomaly in terms of the size, but he still has the athleticism. But like now you're seeing these guys, like when you watch Andre Basilev's getting a nightly basis. Like he seems almost like bored by how easy it is to stop. So he's like contorting his body and he's trying to like save it behind his back.

He's sick. He's doing all these crazy things. And it's like now the athletes are trickling. into the goalie position as well. And when teams are drafting, it's like if the guy's like not 6-2, they're probably not even looking his way, but he needs to still have the speed

and the agility of like a 5-10 guy. They're freaks. Like now, you know, it used to be the, you know, guys were big blockers, you know, a lot of the French Canadian goalies. That was a style for a while.

And you played the percentages. Now these guys, I remember when Peckett came in as a young kid and I saw him, he was 6-5 and the way that he moved. And, you know, you talk about the athleticism of the guys now.

Like he really changed, I feel, for the position as those big guys that are able to do that. Now they're all, Vasilevsky's a freak. Yeah. You know, they all are at that size. And I think, you know, for Soros, first year he came in the league, I felt the, you know, the second half of the season, he started getting exploited up top. Right. But he made, he's made the adjustments. And now he's, you know, the position, the specialized coaching, Ben Van der Klox is a goalie coach.

She's an incredible goalie coach, but the amount of time and hours that they put in on, you know, game tape and research and different goals being scored and just are the little intricate details of the position. It's crazy. These guys are, it's never been better. Just like, you know, the players, I think the goal tendings, it's never been better. It's a science. Well, you know what's interesting? It always bugs me when commentators during games talk about it all, it's like, oh, this goalie's weaknesses, like the high glove or something. It's like, well, yeah, like every shot that goes barred down and has perfectly picked a corner.

It's like, that's every goalie's looking is, right? And so, you know, with Saros, it is interesting because obviously as a smaller goalie, maybe he gives up more net up high, but goalies are so good these days that like shooters are pretty much almost always trying to go high, especially from distance because you're not going to be the goalie in the bottom half of the net. No, no, you can't. And it's the aerial angle and that's the thing, you know, that goalies are getting so good at, too, is they know that.

So if you move your glove, you know, three inches out, you're taking away that aerial angle. So it's pretty, you know, pretty cool when you have a visual of a puck and you get the iPad down there and you see, you know, your hand position is beside your body. But if you put it three inches forward, that takes away that top part of the net. And these guys, these guys know that. And Saros has done a really good job, um, with his hand positioning to help, you know, make, take away those high shots. Yeah. Well, and Soros is, you know, he's interesting from the perspective of he really fits into this. And I think you can speak to this obviously because, you know, you, you certainly, you paid your dues and you were bouncing around the miners. And you, I, well,

what was your first full season in the league? You were probably like 28 or 20. Like he was like, yeah, I was like, oh yeah, I was mid-20. I played six years in minors, right? Yeah.

And so, you know, the league has, we talk about all the changes, you know, skaters, especially whether it's forward, mostly forwards,

you know, teams are still kind of scared about throwing their defensemen into the deep end early on. But, you know, players are younger than ever trying to maximize when they got those fresh young legs, get them out there on those ELCs,

maximize their value. With goalies, still a bit slower, you know, you see like the flyers for example they kind of out of necessity put carter hard in there yeah but for the most part teams are still reluctant to they want their goalies to kind of develop and really sort of refine their games in the miners and then they bring them up and sorrows is a great example you know it helps when you have a legend like renne and and he sort of is going to get his these 50 starts no matter

what but you know sorrows has been in the league now for a couple years i think people like myself are like i want to see more of this guy because it's so intriguing as a talent but the predators other than like, weaning him on, like, really slowly where it's like every year he gets a couple more starts. And he's getting there now, especially under Heinz, you know, he's been a bit hot lately. So they've been kind of going like 1A, 1B more so. But the developmental curve for goalies is is such a unique thing as well where, and I wonder whether it's right or wrong. You know, I think of a guy like Corey Schneider where you wonder now he has all these injuries that have a career in his early 30s. But the Canucks were so slow with him because they had the Wonggo where like he wasn't a full-time player in the league.

until there was 25, 26. And, you know, if a team did that with a skater, everyone would be, like, it's insane. Yeah. And so I wonder whether teams would be better off throwing their goalies in sooner. But you're right, it's such like a mental game as well, where you also, like, if a guy's not ready, whether basically you're mentally, you don't at 22, want to, you know, Steve Mason style and submarine their career as well either.

Exactly. You don't want to, because I just feel if you go from a goalie position to defense to forward, that's probably, to me, into the most pressure, I think, on a position. And, you know, if you have that young goal to, and he is NHL ready in terms of his ability. You don't want him to be a backup goal. He wanted to play, you know, get 50, 60 starts in the minors and work on his game. And the pro game is different.

I find, you know, guys, you don't, like Carter Hart, I was kind of a little bit worried about him, you know, from a, you know, hockey fan perspective because he's a super talent and you're going to that team. But he came up and, you know, he's one of those special guys that I think has the mental strength to be able to deal with those types of situations. He's played a big international hockey games, high pressure, you know, all those types of things, been a top junior player.

But I feel like defensemen are the same. Like Quinn Hughes, Kyle McCar, these guys are, you know, there's not many defensemen that are going to come up as a young, young player and be successful in the league. Dante Fabro, he's a little older, but he's doing it. I feel it goes goalie than defense.

At Ford's, there's just, there's not as much responsibility. Yeah. I think you can go and attack the game. If you make a couple mistakes here and there, it's correctable. If you're a defenseman, it's tough to hide. You know, if you're a goal, it's saying there's no hiding and you don't want to crush a young kid, I think if he comes up and you're playing the NHL and all the spotlights and the reporters and the pressure and the highlights and everything.

And you can really, I think, like you mentioned, Steve Mason, he ended up having a, you know, a big career. Resurgence, yeah. Yeah, he had a resurgence. But I think, you know, it's tough for a young goaltender to. have a lot of success in the league. When I was talking to our mutual friend Kevin Woodley about this in the podcast recently, and we were talking about how like, you know, in terms of the tracking data and analytics, like he knows that individual goalies, especially in the off season, you're like,

you're really pouring or you're doing your homework because you can really learn both tendencies of shooters, but also of yourself in terms of where you're vulnerable and susceptible and what you need to work on and sort of your own habits. And so it feels like there's also like this like layer of off ice sort of work as well in terms of like the preparation that goes into it as well. Not that skaters are just like putting on their skates and just getting on the ice. Like there's certainly, you know, the nutrition, the workouts, the preparation, the watching tape. Like you're doing all that obviously.

But like the preparation for a goalie also feels like it's kind of like so intensified as well. Oh, it is. I mean, it's crazy. The off-ice training and conditioning these guys do. But the biggest thing though for a goaltender, I mean, talking about a young player is, is your mental strength or the way that you're able to deal with these situations. They're all super athletes. I know Pecoranis, you know, these guys, he's 37, or is he 38 now?

Yeah, he's in late 30s. Late 30s, yeah, but he's, you know, the off-ice stuff that he does to keep his fitness level high, even during the season, it's just incredible. Well, especially when like, well, it's been a couple years now, but he had an injury with his hip that potentially, like, it's derailed many goalies in the past, and the fact that he bounced back and had that Vezna Calibers, he's an after also. Yeah, exactly. And you know, it's so funny too

because when I was growing up, goalies barely worked out, you know, until, you know, I didn't really. Have a drink, smoke a cigarette. Yeah, you know, it was just just out, go, just stop the puck. You know, there wasn't any coaching. And now there's, like you said, everyone's got their own trainer. Everyone's got their own, you know, some guys have their summer goalie coach who they train with and, you know, summer programs. And then you have your

team goalie coach and programs and things like that. It's just every layer of the game and the preparation and the training is just, it's, it's like levels we've never seen before, but it's why they're the best in the world. That's why hockey's the best it's ever been. Yeah. I mean, it seems like a lot of work. Maybe, maybe you came in at the right time.

Maybe, maybe. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think, no, but I love it, though. I loved, like, because I ended up, I loved, you know, the evolution of that position and the training and the goaltending coach. I didn't have a, you know, I never had a goalie coach till I turned pro. Basically, Mitch Korn was my first goalie coach. Yeah. You know, on a full-time basis.

So, but now everyone's got, you got one for the NHL, you got one for the minors, you got one for, you know, your prospect. It's just crazy. And, you know, they've got all these programs and all these, you know, Kevin Woodley does a great job with his stuff, especially for the goaltending community. But all these new levels of training and just different resources to help improve that position. Well, Wudley's a big thing. And this is the last thing we'll talk about before we get out of here. But Wudley has like a whole thing that I've talked about on the show about when I'm fascinated by this. your play of defensive and goalies, right?

And we see, like, whether it's the islanders or the stars or the Bruins, like, not to diminish the exploits of the goalies there, but it feels like more interchangeable where you can put a guy in there and you can have a career season. Everything in front of it makes it a lot easier, whereas if you're playing on this run-and-gun style, you're exposed to all these chances off the rush

and just, you know, higher caliber saves. You know, you as a former goalie, I wonder, like, how much of it is that sort of, like, trust level with your defense as well, where, you know, one thing that really sticks out to me with a team like the Blue Jackets, for example, now and the success that Mr. Lickens is having is, we talk about how a goalie can make a save when they know where the shot's coming from. For him, he can be more aggressive and line up a shooter because he knows that whether it's David Savard or Seth Jones is going to be behind him to prevent that sort of east-west tap and pass behind him. So he can just focus on the shooter. And then he can adjust if the puck moves. Whereas for some of these other guys, if you don't trust the defense is behind you, and all of a sudden you're leaning, maybe. the shooter has more of an advantage. Like, what's that at your play like as well? Yeah, it's great.

You know what? You as a goaltender, whether you're the best, you're a product of your environment. You know, you can have, like you said, if you go in an Islander situation,

you know, there's solid defensively, they're committed to it. Shots become predictable. Right. And situations become predictable. You know where it's coming from, so you can prepare for just that show.

Yeah, you can focus in. There's no, two, three, four different options that this player might have. But somebody in L.A., like Jonathan Quicks has been having, you know, a tough couple years,

statistically, but the way that they play defensively, the guy coming in the zone's got four different things you could do. He could say it in his own. You know, it's just so not structurally. It's actually getting, they're getting a little bit better this year. But for a goalie, it's, you know, you could put the best goalie in the world on the worst team and he's not going to have good numbers. Oh, you're seeing that with a Barowski this season.

Yeah, exactly. You go down there and, you know, he puts up, he's a Vezna guy every year, and then he goes down there and it's just not, you can't do it. It doesn't matter how good you are. All right, Mace, this is a blast. I'm glad we finally got to do this. Yeah, thanks, man. Some people can check you out for all the Preds games on Fox Sports Tennessee, right?

Yeah, yeah. And do you have anything else you want to plug or where can people find you on? No, just Twitter at C-Mace 30 and like to have fun on there. So, yeah, follow along. Well, beautiful, man. This is a best. I'm glad we got to do this and let's definitely do it again. Thanks, brother.

Cheers. Appreciate it, man. The hockey PDEOcast with Dimitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at SoundCloud. slash Hockey PEOCast.