The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 346: Process over Results

Episode Date: March 11, 2020

Patrick Johnston joins the show to discuss the Vancouver Canucks, the flaws with teams that are overly reliant on their goaltending, building rosters with the ambition of making the Stanley Cup instead of just making the playoffs, GMs needing to appease meddling owners, Mike Gillis popping back up on the scene, and the NHL dealing with COVID-19 complications.See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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My name is Dimitri Philpovich. I've been sitting across from me in my living rooms. my good buddy, Patrick Johnson. Patrick, what's going on, then? Hey, buddy. Nice living room. Good to be here. I'm excited.

I'm excited to do this with you. You're, you're one of my, uh, we talked about this last time I had you on, but you're one of my longest, uh, friends in the industry. You're not the longest in like physical stature. Thank God. I just mean in terms of being our friendship has. It's been a while. Yeah.

It's been blossoming for years and years. When were you, uh, we were eating, we were eating donuts in the, uh, in the Vancouver Giants. Wow, that is a long time ago. Is that 2012? Yeah. It's been a while. That's offside?

No. That's Reese. Who are you? No, I was, so you're an expert. We would go to, we would go to the H.L games during the 2012 lockout.

That's correct. We'd watch Zach Kassian and the Chicago Wolves. Was Cassian on the wolves? He was, that's right. They set him down. He was like their only good player. And then it was like,

what was his name? Markman Carey? No, no. He was, I mean, HL legend. No, they had a couple other guys. They had the, Bill Sweat. Billy Sweat.

Yep. Eddie Locke. Eddie was playing on the team. Yeah, Jordan Schrader might have been on the team. They had Schrader. It was a lot of failed. A lot of not great.

I think, I've said this before. I think Schrader, I think Schrader, ahead of his time. I think Schrader was okay. Maybe ahead of his time. I mean,

anyway, he played a couple hundred inch old game. Kevin Conotton. Yeah. Well, they had traded him. It was really funny because like, you know,

most of those teams were trying to get their young players some action during the lockout, right? And then there was that like, Oklahoma team where it was like, all the Oilers first overall picks came to town and the building was packed and it was like nudge nudge planned for them or was he too old no i think nudge was there actually it was like even like

hall and ever really were there i feel like it was crazy yeah justin shaltz that was the first justin shaltz cameo we'd gotten and everyone was like this guy's gonna be the next big thing you turned out okay yeah no stanley cup winner justin shultz yeah um so patrick today here's what we're going to do you cover the canucks full time so they say so i don't necessarily think because I've done a Canucks Deep Doe on this show. Yeah. I don't want to sort of relitigate that or get into it,

but I do think there's a couple things sort of tangentially related to the team that we can use as launch points for discussions that a fan of the Blue Jackets, a fan of the wild, a fan of Team X is going to sort of be able to apply. The Seattle X is? Is that what you're calling you?

Yeah, exactly. So here's the first thing. So the Canucks find themselves right now in the middle of this heated wildcar race. There's six teams. We're recording this. on a Tuesday afternoon. There's six teams between 74 and 79 points.

Right. For a while there, it looked like the Canucks were, you know, they were sitting atop the Pacific and there was, you know, you could kind of squint and be like, I mean, they could pull us off. The rest of this division is clearly the weakest one in the league. Vegas was kind of inexplicably sputtering. Yeah. You know, the Alberta teams weren't winning a lot.

And now they've gone on this three, six and one stretch where they've kind of squandered any hope of that. And I think unfortunately squandered it from the sense that, you know, now that they're not going to get a top two seat in. the Pacific, they're not going to get home ice in round one. It's challenging for sure. And they, I think they're right up there in terms of like the biggest home road splits. Yes.

Which makes sense given the composition of the team. And I think they really do feed off of the energy. And so. And matchups. I mean, they are a matchups team. They are realistically. But so what coincides with that. And so the backdrop of this is Jacob Marksson's injury.

Mm-hmm. I think, you know. Skated today, though, by the way. He skated today. But so he, I think it only played like one or two of those 10 games in that three, six and one stretch that I mentioned. Yeah, thereabouts. And anyway, so, you know, I think we can talk about Markstrom from the perspective of his performance,

from the perspective of building a team around a goalie and being that dependent on one and sort of this upcoming UFA class, how much he's going to get paid, how teams. Right. Because we are at this cross-rolls point, I feel like, both in terms of mine and your job of evaluating goalies, how teams are using them, how teams are paying them, you know, Bobrovsky contract class of her aside. And so that's going to kind of stir this up. And, you know, this year's Vesna race is going to be fascinating

because there's a couple goalies with insane traditional stats in terms of safe percentage and wins. And then there's a couple goalies on worst teams that have amazing goals saved above average, goal save above expected metrics, but don't have the traditional accounting stats that goalies typically get rewarded on. And so I think we're going to see how GMs value that. We're going to see how they get paid this summer accordingly. So I don't know.

Let's get into Markstrom. and just everything about it. I think here's my question for you. If you're so reliant on upon one goalie, and the goal, the goaltending is the most important position in the league, right? Like you need a good goalie to win. They can cover all your flaws. But if it turns out, like in the case of the Canucks,

that you're so reliant upon this one goalie to cover for your other flaws, doesn't that, in theory, kind of tell us about how the initial design in the first place was maybe a flawed one? Yeah, absolutely. I think it says everything. It's a team that, you know, if we look at the trend of their struggles, I should say, since they last made the playoffs, even perhaps going back to that 2015 season when they did make the playoffs, you know, it's a team that has struggled with moving the puck up the ice, inherently playing too much defense, having defensemen who really weren't that good in their own end, you know, a series of essentially downgrades. in the defensive end, a conception of of defense that

wasn't sort of keeping with the modern time. You know, I'm thinking of sort of the force field mentality that, you know, once populated the league 15 years ago. And the way, you know, Lucas Spisa, for instance, was presented, Eric Good Branson was presented as these guys that were sort of defend the crease. Clear the crease, yeah. Right? And it just doesn't, it doesn't even work anymore.

It's just not how the games played. And so there was a sort of a conception of how defense worked that was just inaccurate. And so what we've seen this year was a direction that changed. Obviously getting Quinn Hughes is a huge part of that story and his ability to move the puck up the ice and play more on offense and just simply play less defense. And when the Canucks were having success in the first month of the season, now they were playing lesser opponents, but they were playing very well. especially in transition. They turned a lot of pucks over in the neutral zone. They were getting back in the offense.

And it was working. They weren't playing a lot in their own end. You could just see it by the simple shot metrics. And that was great. And as the schedule got harder and as teams got more video to figure what they were doing, you know, that tide has changed. And as you said, thank goodness for them they've had Jacob Markstrom. Because he's been so on point and just hasn't given up any bad goals this year.

I mean, we can look at the contrast. That's your Demko on the whole has been fine as a backup. He's essentially posted league average numbers. That's what you want. You know, they had that disastrous road trip where they right after Marksham got hurt, they were in Eastern Canada and then into Columbus. And in every one of those games, essentially, there was a bad goal against, whether it was Louis DeMang who played against Columbus or those three games with Demko.

And that was a difference maker. And that right there told us, you know, this is a team that can more often than not outscore their problems than they have. but that depends on the goalie being good. How much of that do you think is, you know, obviously it's not by design because no team would want to have, be that relying upon the goalie, right? They want to make life easier for them in an ideal world. But we do see, and I just had Arthur Staple on the show

when we were talking about the Islanders, and like they're a classic example of a team that just completely went the other way when they went from Doug Waite to Barry Trots, where they just became like the Sting's defensive team. And we see that, whether it's with Arizona or whatever. other with Dallas, like when you have that defensive system where you pride yourself on, chances are you're playing a lower event game and that's going to, you're going to give away stuff on the other end of dice offensively because maybe you're not as aggressive

pinching. Maybe you're not pushing the pace as much. You're sort of more comfortable sitting back, right? And with this Canucks team, they play one of the highest-paced bases in the league. You know, it suits them well, especially with their younger players and a lot of the talent they do have. But then I wonder how much of it is like they want to play that way to accentuate that. And this is kind of the drawback of that defensively. And how much of it is the fact that they sort of miscalculated the situation from not realizing the league was heading this way when they traded and signed for Brendan Sutter, when they signed J. Beagle. Because these are guys that are conventional sort of defensive players that they use in matchups. But as the game shifting,

those guys just aren't really effective anymore. You need to be good offensive. to be good defensively in a way. I think there's two things to think about that help tell us that story. First of all, the first coach under Jim Benning was Willie Dejard. And Willie, I think, as we all know, was massively under-equipped in terms of tactical awareness, any kind of systems design, anything like that. Just not a good coach from that standpoint. Maybe he's fine at a lower level, but at the NHL level just couldn't do it.

Yep. And the Kinex struggled because of that. And I think that was some of what went on there was that, you know, you kind of find yourself wondering, you know, as you suggest, you look at a team like, you look at like Rick Talkett in Arizona. Yeah. Great example of a guy who I wonder how much, how much success is about the system he has designed and how much is it that they have the right players to fit that system.

Do you know what I mean? Right. Like, I think fit is more important than system. because you can't do the system if you don't have the right players. And I would say that which then brings us to Travis Green. And you know, you look at some of the frustrations I, you know, he, I think, had about his team last year.

When you look at some of the struggles they had and as things I've already suggested, this was a team he wanted to be able to break the puck out, to disrupt in the neutral zone, to play this kind of counterattacking game. But acknowledge the fact that you, yeah, you're going to play a high tempo, high event hockey. Because that's a stylistic choice. and you need to have a goalie behind that that works.

And, of course, their second half was better than their first half, partly because the changes that Ian Clark, the goalie coach, put in halfway through, or, well, was putting in through the season, but really kind of clicked it halfway through last year. Jacob Marksman figured it out, and that ball started rolling. And I have to admit, I was skeptical heading into this season because it seemed like a very neat narrative after like a 25-game run of. I think most people did.

I think most people, but at the same time, this was a guy that was highly thought of. Of course, yeah. You know, I have a story coming soon, and we're going to talk about the guy that the other guys I talked about Mike Gillis. I mean, I talked to Mike Gillis about this. And, you know, I think he said, listen, when we traded for Jacob Markstrom, there was a reason. I don't think they thought it would take him seven years or six years.

But, you know, the pedigree was there. This was a goalie who was the best goalie outside the NHL. But what I was going to say, the other thing about Travis Green, though, is the same time is, okay, look, he's designed this system with a particular view. And as you said, they've had some players in there. You look at a Jay Beagle who has a clear role, clear purpose. But one of the things I find interesting about green, especially this year, is you can see there is a desire. He's constantly looking for players to fill out his lineup. And more and more, you know, they've finally gotten back to the smart approach.

And I don't know how much this is green and how much this is bending evolving or it's just the way it kind of worked out because they actually have some prospects. But they're filling, you fill from the top down at certain level. So it's like, you know, I mean, you. you can discuss about the price that they paid for J.T. Miller, but adding J.T. Miller was about putting a player that they believed could play in the top two lines and pushing a guy who had been on the top two lines, a guy like Antoine Rousel, down the lineup, Jake Fertan, down the lineup.

Adding Tyler to Foley, again, there was an impetus to that, which was that they had to make the playoffs for internal kind of organizational reasons. Yes. And they had a hole to fill because they didn't know how long Brock Bester was going to be out. And Tyler To Foley was available. And Tyler Toffoli was available. and Tyler Foley's been a great addition has made this team better in the short term. Now, the long-term consequences of the decisions, of course, are obvious.

But in doing so, Green has been able to sort of create a third line in the more modern way of thinking. Adam Goddette is in his second season, has still has things to be improved on defensively, but has shown lots of flash offensively and has proven to be sort of that third scoring center that every team wants to have now. at least he's and is trending i would say in the right direction we'll see where he ends up but he's certainly a player that they're happy with and that shows you that at the end of the day green also recognizes on the whole the team has to be better and they found a way at least in the forward ranks to make it better and they're playing in a system that he wants to plan

that i think that they still believe they're going to have success and even if they are having some struggles defensively well that's the thing i struggle with and and we were talking about this before we went on the air but you know if you just viewed it from, like, in a vacuum, I think there's so much to like about this Canucks team. They've been remarkably fun to watch this year. They play super fast. They have Hughes and Pedersen still on their ELCs where Hughes has been, I think, pretty clearly for me, the most impactful rookie skater in the league.

Pedersen, I think, like, the evolving wild monom has, like, a plus 20 goals above replacement. He's one of the most impactful players in the league, regardless. And so they have, like, all these young pieces where, I think, in theory, they should be, sort of positioned as this young upstart team built around those guys that is going to be better and better for years to come and has championship aspirations and all this stuff. And playoffs this year should be irrelevant because this, you know, they went from sucking to being competitive now. Yeah. But instead, and I don't know how much of this is just having a sort of behind the scenes

view of how this stuff works, but a lot of it is so, it's like so transparent how much they've sort of box themselves with the contracts they've signed with some of the transactions they made where for them the most important thing right now is making the playoffs like they desperately need to make the playoffs this year for jim benning to preserve his job for the owners to make some money yeah and so it goes from being that kind of fun little story to all of a sudden being like kind of like a get rich quick scheme sort of thing right like and that's just like that's what irritates me as uh as someone who follows the league where i do think they're there they're they're there is that kind of imbalance from me.

It is a very much a question of sort of how you orient yourself towards sports. As an observer, which is what we do, you know, as fans, which is the people we talk to. What's more important? Feeling really good right now and not worrying about what comes next? Or sort of that sitting back and being like, okay, it's good now and it's going to be even better next. And I think the former kind of position believes that they think the same way as the second, or should, or that the second person should be thinking the same way as them. Yeah.

But there's inherently a difference, as you've highlighted, which is that, you know, in the end, what is the process that got you to your current position and how does that project forward? And yes, absolutely. I mean, this is one of the things we've been discussing in Canucksland, but it's true for many teams around the league. you know, what does your cap situation look like? And how much are you hoping that the cap goes up as much as it might go up next year? Yeah.

You know, five and a half million dollars over what it is this year. I'm not sure that's going to happen. That sort of requires the players. Well, we'll get more into that one. But we can get more into that. But I think when it comes to the Canucks in their particular instance,

I mean, I've made this case before. The reality is that, yeah, they do have some real obstacles that they've, in some cases, impose on themselves in how they, they've built their cap. Yep.

And I essentially had made a case before, I made two cases. I made one case, which was that, you know, maybe you should consider trading Jacob Markstrom, because this is where he's at. Maybe you can't keep him in the long run. Just go for it. Look at the Columbus example, two younger goleys. Just roll with them. Trust your coach.

Trust your goalie coach. And see what you can get. I don't know if anybody was trading for a goalie at the deadline, but that was one idea. Trade Jake for Tannen and Trey Chris Tanna, both players who have value, who have been very good for this team, but you're not sure there are going to be anything more than they are right now. And you do that because you're pushing all. Those are the chips you have to push in because going forward,

you're not going to be able to maintain the things you may like about this roster because of your cap constraints. And so that is very much, go for it right now. You have your two guys on their ELCs already. Instead of waiting, get it done. now for the patient methodical approach, which is, you know, I think what you were suggesting, which is the thing you like you, you know,

I think when you sit back and you'd like to see it, I mean, I get it. I totally understand. And in the big picture, that is the smarter way to go, which is to don't rush it, right? Don't go out and sign veteran players who already have a three at the beginning of their age

to four-year deals to be your checking line center. Like, it's just not a rational thing. There's no, that's not how you plan for this. but at the end of the day you know it's all very human what I was going to say was it's all very human

at the end of the day right like that's that's the kind of that's that's the reality of is that is that you know the the owners haven't had playoffs they make money in the playoffs so they want to get the playoffs

so it's inherently get in the playoffs is this going to get us the playoffs is this move going to put us in the playoffs and that's been the pattern here for seven years That's what I keep coming back to.

That's like that existential question when you're building a team of, are you trying to make the playoffs? Yeah. Playoffs. Or are you trying to win a Stanley Cup? Yes. I get that you have to make the playoffs to win a Stanley Cup. And there's this idea that teams can't just have playoff success in their first try with this young core where you have to go through those growing pains and lose in the round one, losing around two, make it get to a conference finals, kind of this like stepwise evolution, right?

Yeah. And I think when a team like the Blues last year wins a cup kind of improbably going from worse to first, it gets kind of, it makes, it empowers struggling franchises to be like, that could be us. Totally losing side of the fact that a stat that I keep coming back to is the Blues were literally the best team in the league from January 1st on. Like in terms of every single predictive 515 metric, they were the most dominant team in the league. And so all these teams that are in the bottom 10 right now that are. hovering around a playoff spot to think they're going to be the next blues. Like I have a rude awakening for them.

But the thing I've really been dialing in on is sort of how do we tell the story? And it's what you just sort of hinted on. How, you know, what do we believe evolution looks like? How, of a hockey team to be clear. So, you know, there is that notion, well, you know, you got to, you know, that school of hard knocks, you got to kind of, you got to find out how tough it is to win. and then you'll know how much sweeter it is to tell that story of this team has been through the hardships now they're on top and there's plenty of examples of teams who um you know made the you could see

okay this is maybe a team for the future and they made the playoffs and they had some sort of disappointment and then a year or two later they're in the final now how much of that is actually learning or is that development of skill or is it actually combination of two. And I have some time for the notion of, quote, learning how to win, but I think it gets articulated wrong. And I think what it really is about, and it's something I was talking to J.T. Miller about, which is the idea of how much athletes have to understand that every moment does matter and that you

can't slack off at this level anymore. It's not so much about learning how to make the right decision in a moment, but it's learning about how to be consistently positive in your efforts. In that way, everything you do, every time you step on the ice, there's no wasted energy. There's no wasted moments. There's no wasted movements. Right. And that's something I think, I think that's true in almost any sport.

That is something you do have to learn. But that's not, but that's not, but that's not, that at the end of the day, still is relying on you having good enough players. Yes. Right. And so sometimes players aren't quite ready because they're 20. and they need to get a little more strength than next year they're 21.

And you look at the Lovolution of Pedersen. Ideally, I think most people say, well, Hughes in a couple years, once he's actually, you know, not a teenager. Yep. You know, that's when you want to have your team optimal. And that, I think, to come back to your earlier question, is the kind of baffling thing

when you sit back about it because that's what you should be designing about and it's sort of been in a case that's been presented quite smartly by a lot of smart people in hockey for 10 years now. I mean, I can think of when Tyler Delo first started writing about how to optimize your ELC, sees on his old website.

And it's still only now something that I think teams are sort of backing into because overall you see the market. I mean, it goes back to your question about Markstrom and his free agency and the kind of process on that and like what's the value of your goalie. But he's a 30 year old goalie, you know? So you go back to it and you're just like, how do you design this team?

And the truth is you should focus in on when are my players going to be optimal. Yeah. And in terms of understanding development, not worrying necessarily so much about the idea of learning to win because they're going to figure that out anyway. But you also need to make sure you're picking players that understand that the consistency of effort, the consistency of every shift mattering. There's never an off shift. Every night is what got to be your best night going forward.

That sort of thing. But that matters. I think how much of it is just like probability in the sense that. Well, that's it. Losing in the playoffs early the first couple years and then winning the cup, like most years, I think the lightning were like an overwhelming cup favorite and by most models running into the postseason last year and obviously, you know,

right, didn't work out for them. But that was an anomaly, I think most years I would say, um, every sort of projectable model would have the cup favorite at like less than 20% to win the cup. Yeah.

And what you're trying to, and that's what I mean is that at the end of the day, the quote, learning to win thing. Yeah. It's really just understanding when you should be optimizing your players. Yes. And if you look at, I mean, we've talked about them endlessly here,

but you look at like the 2011 Canucks, who were far and away, the best team the league, but at the end of the day, got hurt, you know, the Bruins were just pull it out a little bit better, whatever have you. You know, did any of us think that that team would actually crash out of the playoffs in the first round next year? I'm not, none of us did.

I mean, I know Thomas Dranswell. Well, they won the President's trophy next year. Right? I mean, I know Thomas Dransel, wave his flag and say, I was the guy that called, but you know what, at the end of the day, if you had sat back and said, is this team going to lose in the first round?

No, they aren't. But that's how it works, as you said. It also matters on who you match up with. And that's why at the end of the day, you would think that the 2011 Canucks realized if you're going with the narrative, well, they need to learn how to win. Well, they just needed to win one more game.

But here's the thing that nagzmy. Because in theory, like, these are the years for them to optimize. The cues and Pedersen are already such elite players. And they have this year or next year on their ELCs, where it makes sense. But because of the past contract, they signed where the justification was, well,

we need to establish a winning culture. We need to have NHL veterans on this team. So they pay Jay Beagle. They pay Antoine Rousel. They pay all these guys, which now they're coming to regret. The other thing is... To be clear, I wouldn't put Roussel.

I think Roussel's been fine. But they were spending money for the sake of having contracts. I think if you're signing Rousel without having signed Beagle, I don't think you're as annoyed as with that contract. But it's the debt by a thousand cuts aspect. Well, yeah, it's...

giving Sam Gagne extra years than having to trade him for Spooner and then having an extra million on his buyout, right?

It's like just a combination. It's like a lack of business acumen, I would say. But the thing that bugs me is like every move is so thinly veiled with this idea that they had to go all in now

with this group where they're signing Tyler Myers, they're signing Michael Furlin, like, you know, they're making all these moves. They're trading future assets to make this team.

And that's what I keep going back to is what, what the end. game is here. And I don't know, here's a thought exercise for you. I don't want to get you in trouble with the Aqualini's. But if you give them truth serum or any most owners in the league, let's say. So let's not name names. And you gave them two options. Option A, you make the playoffs for five straight years, but you're, like, you're losing it around one. Maybe you make it's round two one year. Or you make a deep run to a conference final or even a Stanley Cup final. But you don't win it, but you still get a bunch of home playoff games stacked into that one year. And you're, you're, you're still get a bunch of home playoff games stacked into that one year. Or you. And you're. You make. You make a deep run. but then you don't make the playoffs the other years, which one you'd choose. I think most owners would probably choose, not most. There's certain owners in the league that would choose that consistent every year. Let's get between three and five home playoff games.

I think they're totally choosing that. Yeah, because there's a consistent. So isn't that insane? From a trying to win the cup perspective? Yeah, absolutely. I think it is one of those ones that ends up clouding your judgment too, right? Because it is a bit of, you're like, okay, what do I want here? I want to be able to sell Stanley Cup final tickets because the price is, I don't know,

five times what I can charge in the first round. I don't know. But I'm just saying. Well, it's getting that excitement every year heading into April. Right. And I think, I think you can say, well, if we can just get playoffs every year, at least we know there's money rolling in. And at the end of the day, I mean, that is the thing that's happened in sports is that because,

I mean, once upon a time, the argument was you should never go into sports to make money. It's just never going to happen. Now, everyone's going to spend it. But now you make money, right? They wouldn't be doing it. I mean, there are exceptions to the rule where they're just like, I want to see what happens and I'm going to do this, that, and the other. Pretty much every franchise is profitable.

You might not be making money in the moment, but just having that as an asset in your portfolio, you can sell it for more money than you pay for it. And you just said it right there. What increases your value? I think home playoff dates increases your value. What do we in the end want to see? I think, you would like, I mean, selfishly, right?

This is the part. It's not, we're not cheering for, we're not cheering for what's for our story. And a better story is writing the story about the team that goes to the Stanley final. But that's harder to do because that means being patient and that means not having sort of dead spots on your roster. Right? It's a gratification.

You know, and I think I would say this though at the same time in all this debate, I do consistently go back to the question of, and you kind of said it yourself with the challenge of probabilities that the best chance team still. doesn't have a dominant chance to win. And because of that, it always is a reminder to me is how how tight so many things are. The flip side of the death by 1000s cuts

is making sure you're making smart moves along the way to optimize. And it's not so much one decision that hurts you. It's the accumulation of decisions. And so no one thing is extreme. No one player necessarily, I mean, unless it's like Connor McDavid or I suppose still maybe said, right?

But even then those guys, they really get you a long way towards winning. But as we know with the Oilers, it's almost, it is, what the bigger impact on your chances is that you've built a good team. Yeah. Right.

And so when, when a move gets criticized, I'm like, okay, but I do try to sit back and say, what's the trend? Is this one move we're criticizing or is it a series of moves we're criticizing? And that has been the interesting, challenging dynamic with a,

assessing this current Kinnock's team because Tyler Chifoli makes your team better. The price you paid is a lot. Same with Miller. And the same with Miller, right? And so you add those two up together and like combined the team's better, but you've sacrificed potentially quite a bit. And you need, and in many ways,

that's kind of the worst shot to take because the shot you want to take is the one that causes the minimal damage to recognize that, You know what? We're not going to have a first round pick this year, but who cares because we were picking 29th? Well, and we were talking about this, like, whether this idea of, like, why does your general manager, I get needing to have people who understand hockey, who are talent evaluators, who have been in the game and understand how it works and the process in your organization. But as in terms of like the head of the operation that makes the decisions that gets players

to sign contracts, that treats draft picks, contracts as assets. Wouldn't you be better off having some sort of a business acumen as opposed to your main credential being I played an NHL 20 years ago? Because that's the issue we bump into where a lot of it is you just get this tunnel vision of did this trade make our team better? And you're like, yeah, we got the best player. So yeah, our team is better today than it was yesterday. But because of how the league works with a tight salary cap, with everything taken into account, with the margin for error being so small between franchises, you can't view that stuff in isolation. There's so much opportunity cost for every transaction you make in terms of,

especially, and we saw it, we've seen it recently where like the Canucks wanted to make more moves of the deadline, but they couldn't be in on any of it after they made it to Foley trade because they just didn't have the rule to soak up contracts. I mean, as we said, Markstrom's back besters playing tonight.

Like they had two contracts that potentially they were like, okay, they do open up space, but we don't know how for how long. So they couldn't make any more moves. I was going to go back to your, Have you read Range? Are you right?

Yeah. So as Epstein notes, there's how decisions get made. This is a great book. If you haven't read, I suggest reading David Epstein's book, Range. And one of the things he highlights is how decisions get made, basically. The book focuses on why it was a generalist thrive in a specialist world of specialists or whatever. It made the argument that you should have different skills and that people who think they're experts at something but actually aren't anymore are like the most dangerous. Yeah, and I think, but one of the things that really sticks with me is talking about essentially how decisions get made in groups.

Yeah. And one of the conclusions is that the idea of the outside view versus the inside view, the inside view is basically sitting there yourself saying, what do I think about this? What do I see in front of me and then making the decision? Whereas the outside view is where you sit back and you look and you try to find comparable scenarios and find out how other people made their decisions. And then assess those and see if you can find a better fit to your situation and say, okay, that's the way to solve the problem. It's not saying, I know everything. It's saying, I don't know a lot.

Yep. And that consistently is a problem. I think we still see in hockey. There's no doubt about it. And a lot of it just comes down to a lot of its life experience. And as you said, you know, there are cases to be made around where you, you bring people in from the outside and they have advice for the team and you understand how a decision gets made.

It's not, you know, the fallacy is to think that. Napoleon was great because Napoleon himself, right? Napoleon wasn't great because of Napoleon himself. Napoleon was great for a whole bunch of reasons. You know, the best trained army in the world, an incredible officer staff, like just understanding who his generals were, understanding. I mean, there was a great, I think it's actually, it's in range as well where he talks about one of the things that Napoleon recognized was the challenge of supplying your army on a long

campaign. Right. And one of the things, basically, he sat back, said, I don't know how. to solve this problem. And basically they put it out to the French public and a chocolate maker figured out that basically how to preserve food in tin cans. And that changed everything. They could supply themselves. They could bring their supplies with them. They didn't have to scrounge for food. You kept your army happy and healthy and carrying on. And that was an outside solution to an inside problem. And then also, he was a general who understood how to manage his staff. And as a result,

you know, you look at the way modern, especially I think modern hockey still thinks, it's that, well, I have to know everything. I must make this decision as opposed to sitting back saying, guys, what decision are we going to make? And then working together with your staff. I wasn't expecting a Napoleon deep dive on this podcast. But I love, I'm very fast. I mean, I need to read more about him. But he really, I mean, he's fascinating. It's such an importance. sort of element of history. And, you know, I think that's that there's so much to be learned from outside what you know. Well, okay.

And it's, I mean, it's instinctual to me. Maybe it's instinctual to you. But it is, it's clear how not, how it's not instinctual for a lot of people. Yeah. And, and no matter who you are, where you're at in life, it would, it would be very good for any manager, no matter what they're in, no matter where you're at to start thinking, to set yourself saying and start with yourself saying i don't know i actually don't know did you see that your gonna clap interview where he was asked about his thoughts on the coronavirus or or something and then

he was like the problem with our society is that you know you ask people who aren't experts or don't know about something and they feel the need to weigh in on it and it's like that's what i feel all the time and you know you get asked and if you're covering the league or you're quote unquote a hockey analyst you get asked all the time by like you know go to a dinner party or something and someone's like oh, who's going to win the cup this year? Or what do you think about this? And if you come back with, I don't know because of A, A, B, and C, that that's such an unsatisfying answer to people, you know?

Like, everyone just expects you to know because you work in that field. And so I think we often kind of go about it that way. And similarly, how many transactions or how many decisions hockey teams make are because this is the way we've always done it. Yeah. And it's because you keep kind of this endless cycle or endless train of, people with similar backgrounds, similar, you know, life experiences, similar ways of training and coming into it. And so you just keep doing the same stuff. And if you brought in someone from

the outside, whether it was from a different sport, a different business, different whatever, they'd probably have a million ideas of like ways you could do different things to optimize, performance to optimize, to get kind of cutting edge advantages. And I think one of those would certainly be like offer sheets like if if you if you brought in a stranger to the game and then they were like looking at the list of free agents they were like oh that guy's good you're telling me we can sign him no no no we can't why not he's young and he's really good he's going to get better like we should pay him now no we don't want to hurt the feelings of the other guys oh like that's literally how the transaction we're like trying to explain the logic of why offer sheets don't

happen i understand the player needs to be willing to sign it yeah But let's say the player is willing to sign it. You are running a team in a good market, a big, healthy burgeoning market where the player wants to come. Why wouldn't you do that? And it's just like people want to improve their teams, but under their own terms, it feels like. Yeah. You know, I go back to last summer. I remember when we were talking about, you know, we were looking at sort of the variables around the Canucks in the first round.

They ended up picking facility with Colson, who everyone says it was a great. pick, yeah. High upside, yeah. But in the moment, you know, they were also, you know, the conox for interest in Tyson Berry. And I still haven't figured out quite what the, how that deal would have looked.

But, you know, were they thinking about dropping a couple spots down? And I remember you pointed out like, well, what's the opportunity cost? What's the difference between the player getting at 10 versus 12? Right. And, you know, I think in that moment,

I think if that were on the table, and I'm not saying I knew there was a chance to drop down, but if that were on the table, and they have done it before, They've investigated before anyway. Well, they try to get into the deadline. Yeah, but I'm just capacity here. Yeah, but I'm, but I'm just saying, you know, the idea of, you know, being willing to drop down in a pick is a creative way.

And, you know, there are, there are opportunities there. That is an opportunity cost question. Well, the biggest opportunity is dropping down from late first to early second. Yeah. Because everyone just wants to make that sexy pick on day one. Yes. And at the end of the day, they made the decision that no, I think, I think at the, behind all that at the end of the day,

they made the decision, no, Put Colson is the opportunity and we're not giving up on that. And I think they, well, I mean, he has to play at NHL,

but he's had a great finish to his KHL season. And I think in hindsight, that was a moment where they did actually make that calculation. Well, the funny thing is they probably should have taken a new hook who the avalanche did wind up taking.

Yeah. I don't know how. The calculus that were interesting. But, you know, the calculation is there. And I think it is a bit of, you know,

I think, I do think, slowly but surely there is more and more of that kind of thinking and creeping it. I do think, I do think, and it's partly because, you know, there is turnover now in general matters.

There are, you know, there are guys that haven't always been in the game. There are still a lot of guys that always have been in the game, and I think some of them are struggling quite a bit. But more and more, we're seeing, we're seeing a turnover, and some of that's from within hockey, inside sort of hockey circles,

some of that's because they're understanding, there are other guys to bring in. You look at, you know, like in New Jersey, they're being really methodical in how they approach their GM position. We're going to talk more about Gilson. Yeah, but I'm just saying, but I'm just saying you're bringing, you do have people around the edges that are coming into it.

And then also just the straight reality that, you know, the guys that are coming up internally, they're older than you and me, but they're not that much more older. And they are more and more going to be products of the shift in education than happened, you know, going on when we were,

when we were younger, that people just were taught to think more critically. And that, that I think is going to be the big change, you know, five, ten years from now. That we are just, it is just inherent. There's just this wave coming of thinking that's internal to society. And that's leaching into all sport, part of sports. You know what the most, I'm not sure how much of this you've experienced. Obviously, you know, covering the team, you interact with people in the organization at all various levels.

Yeah. And especially when a transaction happens, you kind of, especially as you build relationships, you get the opportunity to sort of, even if it's off the record, sort of, why'd you do this? Or like, sort of, what was the rationale here? And they'll tell you, right?

Trying to learn about the thinking. For sure. Yeah. And the interesting thing to me is, is when I first started in the industry, it was a lot of, you know, reactionary stuff to like, this team's stupid,

this GM's an idiot, like why they do this. And the more you learn is that, and a lot of the logic can be flawed, so it's like not the right decision they came to. But regardless of the move, I guarantee you, every team has like a thought out reason of like why they did it.

Yeah. And it's always funny to see to me when I am critical of a move to hear from someone in the organization kind of defensively like, well, have you thought about yeah, this, this, this and this. And a lot of times it's it, you know, it's it's kind of reassuring in the sense that people aren't just making moves just for the sake of making you. But at the same time, it's like they're approaching it from a, um, maybe the wrong angle. at times.

Yeah, and I think I would say to that, like, there's, there's no Mike Milbury's anymore. You know what I mean? There's no Mike Keenan's. I mean, Mike Keenan, I think, had a bit of an approach. But I would say, but I mean, but I mean. But, you know, and I think just to your point, you know, that if in life, not every decision, even you or I make is going to be the right decision, you know, we all have our processes.

And as you just indicated, you know, at least people are pushing back and saying, well, this was our reason. Well, and a lot of it is everyone has to answer to a boss in life. Well, that's it. And, you know, we've talked about this kind of, you've danced around the issue with Benning and that way and all that. But it's like, and we were talking about this before we went on there. Especially with the Miller trade, for example. Right.

You know, I was very critical at the time because it reeked of, I don't care if we're giving up a future first because if we don't make the playoffs, I'm not going to be here to make that pick anyways. And I do think, oh, I think, I don't think you're wrong. I still don't think you're wrong. I mean, I think that's a realistic motivation. and I think for for most people in this business because because that's what keeps you employed. Yeah. Right. It's, it's, I don't know if it's a word cynical.

It's reality. Yeah. It's twisted. But, you know, you look at, I don't know, to go way back, you look at Dave Nona's signing, signing David Clarkson, right? Part of that, my understanding was Nonis looking, basically saying, I have. have to keep my job, the people that pay the bills saying, Dave noticed who's the biggest free agent, or who are the biggest free agents on the market this summer, and him having to say, well, there's this guy and this guy and this guy. And they're like, wait, he's from here. We've got to sign him.

Yeah, it's like a marketing. You know what I mean? And it was a terrible contract and a terrible signing and never was going to work out. But if the option was between keeping your job and not having your job in that moment, you know, it's ridiculous. But it is the twisted logic that I think you still get a lot of in the NHL. I mean, I know we're trying to suggest that there is a lot more, I think, smart decision being made. But at the end of the day, it is also about who pays the bills and who and what they want, and they what they want to hear.

You have to appease the boss. And, you know, there's the example I use. Like, I'm still convinced that no one was offering a first and a third for J.T. Miller. Right. I think the Connors were kind of bidding it themselves because the lightning really had no leverage. They had to shed that money. Yeah.

And if it's, if it comes down to going to your boss and saying we improved our team noticeably by adding J.T. Miller or coming to him and saying, yeah, we actually, the deal fell through because I drew a hard line where I only offered a second and a third and I didn't want to bump it up. That's going to be a very difficult conversation to have. Now, I will say I was critical of that move as well. J.T. Miller has blown me away with how good he's been. Helps playing with Pedersen certainly. You hear all these stories. You reference him sort of taking like Jake or Tannen and all these guys under his wing. That's one thing. Just watching him on the ice. Like, I don't think I've seen him lose a puck battle this year. He's incredible.

scene and I'd watch them closely in New York and in Tampa. I thought he was a good player. I thought he was much more of a supporting cast player than a leader like that. So, you know, the Canucks, whether rightly or wrongly, identified that and it's worked out great for them. I still think you can quibble with the process, especially since it is opportunity cost. But anyways, let's move on. Let's talk about Gillis and stuff because, you know.

Enough about the Canucks. Well, I think we're both, like, pretty optimistic about them. We love some of the talent they have where, you know, there's certain things. They're better than they were, right? Absolutely. they're more fun. I think the entertainment value is through the roof. You go back a couple of years ago, going to that ring, it was sad.

It was. You could have a conversation with a person on the other end of the ring. It was, yeah. And I mean, the irony in all of this was that they, I mean, they took the weirdest path getting there, but because they signed a bunch of players that didn't really tangibly help get to where they're at now. Right.

Right. and refused in many ways to acknowledge the word rebuild, to acknowledge... It was a retool. It wasn't a re-were. But at the end of the day, okay, they've got there. They've got there. At least it's a new team.

It's a different team. There's lots of interesting stuff. There's still lots of flaws to it. And next year's going to be a real challenge. And they have a couple contracts. They still need to get out from under. And I'm not sure they'll be able to. But, yeah, you're right.

I mean, at least, at least, you know, the process has been great to get where they're at, but they're not in a terrible spot. The hardest thing to do in this league is to get young star players and they have two of them. So that's a great building block. Now how they work around that, we'll see. But, you know, and whether Jim Benning will be the guy to do that.

And this is a great segue for us. I want to talk about Mike Gillis because, you know, he ran the Connox before that. Yeah. He recently popped up in news where Elliot Freeman reported that he had interviewed with the devils about their opening because Tom, Tom Fitzgerald is an interim tag, even though he was like one of the busiest GMs.

around the trade deadline with all the moves he made. You know, you've struck up more of a personal relationship with Mike Gillis, or a professional relationship, I guess in terms of chatting with it, picking his brain, seeing where he's at. And it is,

he's such an interesting and also polarizing name, both in league circles privately, with people in the league and with fans because of how his tenure in Vancouver ended where, and I do think he is to blame a little bit. I do feel like the playoff failure and falling short of the end. goal kind of stirred them in the wrong direction, maybe a little bit, maybe kind of like

psychologically broke them in terms of how they were building the team and sort of sticking with that one process as opposed to like it happens. Teams, we see it all time. I think that's the most commendable thing about the lightning right now where they didn't allow what happened last year to make them freak out and make all these crazy trades just so they got tough. Right. Like they added on the margins, but they didn't actively subtract from their core. But you know, with Gillis, he hasn't gotten, and I think part of it, is self-imposed where I think it's such a mentally draining job that he did want to take some time off. He was like he was teaching in law school.

Like he was working in Switzerland a little bit like definitely managing his schedule more, more tightly or more freely. Well, he spent time with other sports. He wanted to find out what other people do. He sort of follows his nose. But he also has and I mean, it speaks to how he rub people the wrong way and how he operated in a different way than those GMs that there has not been a ton of traction. No. And I think some of it is that, you know, I mean, he said this to many people. I'm not the only person he said this to, but, you know, as I said in a tweet. Or you're reporting this. But, yeah, and I mean, I said in a tweet, but, you know, he's not a guy that wants to be a GM again.

He's not interested in that particular role. He does, yeah, of course he wants to work for a team. You know, he's a guy that he likes winning, you know. He's been very successful in his life. He has been very successful in his life and also as along the way has not had to worry, you know, about robbing people the wrong way. That's his nature. You know, there was a, you know, you look at the successes they had on ice when he was in charge of the Canucks. You, of course, also look at the things that didn't do very well.

I mean, there were some not great trades in there. There were some very good free agent signings. There were some pretty poor work at the draft. You know, I think it would be interesting now. It would be interesting now to see him in charge because I think, one of the things that, you know, I think has become clear is that he was very interested in trying new things and we saw that. But a lot of the data they had and a lot of the sports science, to be honest, wasn't quite there yet. Right. And so a lot of things they were trying

then we know partly because they tried it themselves, but also partly because in general, everybody's trying new stuff. So I think it would be interesting from that standpoint, but from that standpoint just to see him involved with a team that thinks in those ways, that is interested in pushing in the envelope that is interested in studying things like sleep cycles and when they really should be traveling and things like that. But yeah, I mean, he's a guy that, you know, he's done very well in his life. Let's not, let's not ignore the fact that he's done very well. And as a result, he's able to pick his spots.

And so, you know, I think he, he certainly is willing to talk. I think if the right offer came along, he would absolutely say yes. I'm sure there are elements about the New Jersey, for instance, group, the owners there who are, you know, all in on data, have found a fair bit of success with their other team, the 76ers. You know, obviously the Sixers haven't won anything, but they're a very interesting team, and that's a reflection of who owns them.

And I think there is certainly interest in New Jersey, And, you know, obviously you can see it. I mean, they hired Tyler Delo. I mean, that was Matt Kane, right? Like, they hired two guys who think in different ways, who are very big on data. You know, Tom Fitzgerald clearly has been handed a fair bit of responsibility. But I have every reason to think that, you know,

there's a much more kind of a collective decision-making process happening there. It's not just, you know, Fitzgerald's this brilliant guy who should be the GM. I think it, what they, I really do think there is an interesting fit there because Gillis is a guy that clearly is interested in changing. He's interested in doing things in new ways, partly because he's fully convinced that most of what had been done in the past was wrong. And I think he would be interested in being involved with a group that we're trying to push the limits in terms of how their structure looks, how they make their decisions.

So yeah, when I saw that that had actually happened, I wasn't surprised to hear that at all. Yeah, I mean, I'm biased. I'm coming at it from the perspective of, and I've been open about this, that that Gilman-Gillis regime was like, what got me into this industry, what got me hooked just because that team was, you know,

now it's funny to look back and be like, view it as cutting edge because it's so commonplace now with a lot of the thinking and like, even like, you know, sheltering the crap out of Cody Hodgson and Henning the city while playing Mani Malhotra for all the defensive shifts. At the time, people were like, whoa.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. These teams optimizing their usage and their matchups and all this stuff. But in many ways... But in many ways now, actually, the sheltering using a defensive-only player, we're actually like, why would you do that? Because, I mean, I'm actually doing that with Jay Beagle. I'm not, you know, but you know what I mean?

Like, for the time, though, it was like, whoa, nobody's ever thought about that. Right, they were coming at it from a different angle. And it was like very, like, it hooked me in terms of interest of what was capable, right? And I think, you know, most hockey people do not want to be told that what they've been doing was wrong. Well, he gets human, too. though, right? Of course. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

but I don't think it needs to be viewed, like, in a confrontational way. I think, if anything, I'd view it as, like, a healthy appetite for, uh, experimentation. Yeah. Or, uh, you know, trying new stuff and, and, and, you know, a team like the devil's now is, you know, position, especially after last summer went so well for them and then they had nothing to show for it and just completely flamed out at the start of this year. Uh, they have all these, all this, like, financial flexibility, but draft capital as well, have hues, yeah.

Yeah. year and into the young players. And so, you know, it's a, it's a high leverage moment for them in their franchise to, you know, get creative in terms of what they're going to do. And so I think he'd be a good fit from a sort of more modern front office what we were talking about, like, instead of your traditional GM, be kind of like a figurehead liaison where he can kind of keep the owner at bay and not allow financial decisions to completely dictate your roster moves, while also embracing the people below him.

and allowing them to, you know, enable them, like, why you brought in creative thinkers and actually listen to them and use their findings as opposed to just being able to have a press release saying that you hire Tiredello and Matt Kane, but not actually listening to them. I think, yeah. I think, I think the things were remembering all this at the same time, and it was something I was going to touch on earlier, was, we've talked. I mean, the owner, the owner is always a factor in any of these places. And you look at Dundon in Carolina, and there's an owner who is very involved.

You know, and I think... Maybe too involved. Maybe too involved. And I think partly, but I think what I was going to say is I think because you can kind of understand it. Yeah. Because these guys have made a lot of money one way or another. And it's kind of fun to own a sports team.

You know, and you look at the process and the way things work. And in a way they are buying their... way into the club. Of course. And of course they want to be involved. I think the challenge is, or sorry, not the challenge, the thing that bears watching going forward, and I think that is the interesting thing in New Jersey, is how much, you know, the owners are going to want to be involved, but how much are they really stepping back at the

end of the day? And, you know, or are you creating a James Dolan or Jerry Jones situation where there literally making all the decisions in the end. Right. And making bad ones at that. You know, I think, I think that that is the kind of, that is forever the challenge. Because in the end, these guys have made a lot of money. They haven't made it in sports.

Owning a sports seems fun. This is their money that they're, this is the, this is the sort of big decision in their life to spend money. And, you know, they're not just going to pour it down the drain. And, you know what? Most, you know, you get to that level of success. You are going to often trick yourself into thinking it was entirely because of your own making.

Of course. Well, you want to be smart, but you also just as importantly, you want people to know that you're smart. Yes. All right, let's quickly wrap up this conversation then and talk about whatever in the league is talking about,

the coronavirus and how that's impacting. You know, your coverage of the team, the league's approach, you know, there's a couple of caveats I want to say here. First, um,

wash your hands. Wash, definitely wash your hands. Well, you should be doing that regardless. this. Watch your hands more. News is changing by the day.

Yeah. You know, we're at a very sort of a critical point here where it seems like every day like more news is trickling out, right? And both in terms of our understanding, like how people are impacted, how leagues and companies are treating it proactively. Right. The other thing is with the social media era, we're in this age of misinformation where everyone's got to take.

People are saying crazy stuff. I'm going to be open and say. that, you know, my, I've been reading up on it a bit, but I think still think my, understanding of it is pretty superficial. Right. And the other thing is, and I don't want to be adding to that misinformation, so I don't want to be coming on here, spewing hot takes about. But to be clear, it's not just the flu.

The other thing is, that's me anyway. I want to add some perspective here. And, you know, preface this conversation. This is ultimately sports. Yes. It's a game. Yes. And I understand.

And the reason why I don't talk about topics like this on this podcast much is because this is an escape for a lot of people, right? Like people want to just watch hockey. They work on 9 to 5. They want to come to watch it. And then if they will listen to this podcast, they're probably, you know, more geeky about it and want to know more stuff. But at the end of the day, like, you tune into this to the hero.

Obama takes of which hockey player is better, not some sort of big, you know, remarks on society. But this really isn't an inescapable storyline now, especially. you know, the sharks now coming out and we still don't know what they're going to do with their upcoming home games. They have like 10 days or sort of decide. Yeah. But like it'd be foolish to sort of bury our head in the sand here and just be like, oh, it'll be fine. The league isn't going to be affected because like this is happening faster than we even thought it would, right? And so I wanted to get into into that while acknowledging that there's so many more important

things than sports. And I think I'm not sure I don't follow the other leagues as closely, but you see a lot of the pushback with hockey fans is like, oh, my God, like, this is just, you know, hysteria. Like, this is so over the top and unnecessary. Yeah. And it might be. But I think it's certainly in this case, it's a lot better to be proactive than reactive about it. I believe you've talked about opportunity costs. Yeah.

And another thing is like is, you know, it's, it really goes against, I mean, think about, like, how much pushback there is this idea of load management in hockey where it's like, our players are going to play all 82 games because. they're tough hockey players. So now this idea of changing the way we cover hockey and the way we watch hockey because someone might get sick is people like, oh my God, this is crazy. Yeah. Let's, you know, health is first and foremost here. So let's let's say that. But, you know, you've had an up close view of it now because you actually go to all

the sort of press conferences, media availability. You cover the team on a day-to-day basis. So let's kind of get into, from that perspective, acknowledging all of those caveats. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's interesting, obviously, here because we are one of the busier media groups, I think, in the league. You know, there are, let's be honest. It's a traveling band.

Well, there's, yeah, we, I mean, for starters, yeah, we have reporters that travel to every game, you know, and that's not multiple from different. Multiple, yeah, I should say multiple. So, I mean, you know, that's not true of every team. Most teams do have reporters that follow the team from, from, you know, outside outlets. But there's a couple that don't. And so, you know, I think. The challenges that are, excuse me, that are faced by, ironically, at Coff.

Yeah. The challenges that are faced by the Canucks as an organization are bigger than most. And so, you know, they were, you know, I mean, it was a very quickly evolving situation over the weekend. You know, we first heard, I think, on Saturday, essentially that the team, were going to be closing off, certainly their rooms and their team spaces. And then they were going to have to come up with some alternative plan.

And, you know, that was a, you know, I think once they finally kind of came to the conclusion they were at, you know, the Knoch's PR, like I am the local head of the PHWA, which is, you know, not everybody that covers the team is in our group, but a good portion of the local reporter core. is involved with our group. And so, you know, they gave me a shout. Just said, here's what's happening tonight after the Sunday night game.

Here's our plan for now. We are going to, you know, evaluate and move forward with how it goes. And so today, Tuesday was the first day because they took it yesterday off. And this is the other interesting challenge because we're now at that point of the season where teams just aren't practicing as much. They're much more conscious of the idea. I mean, they don't want to talk about load management in terms of games, but they're very conscious of it.

Literally every player is hurt. Right. They're very conscious of. the idea of, well, we shouldn't skate as much as we would like to because we just need to give guys rest. And the, the, um, you know, so Sunday, sorry, Tuesday, you know, so we, the, the connects are playing the Islanders. Canucks basically do a morning skate every game, unless it's a back to back and then

they don't, but a lot of teams don't necessarily do that anymore, but the Canucks do. And instead of opening up the room, which, you know, we usually go in as a crowd and there's usually a few players there and it's sort of usually there's certain guys that know they're going to be asked for or talk to and there's certain guys that are happy to just hang out and talk you know, on the cameras. And this is the thing that I think is important to understand

is that I think most people kind of imagine the coverage as well, everyone's just standing around in Scrum. That's the only time the players talk. And this was the challenge and I think we all accepted it. We all recognize, yes, there is a clear health purpose to all this

and we're all very accepting of that. The advantage of in that scenario, especially on our practice day, when you go in there and there's sort of guys hanging around because just to be clear, the room they're in that all the cameras come into now, that's where they take their hockey gear off. They're all their stuff,

they're getting changed, they're having showers all elsewhere. They leave that room, they go to some other room that we're never in. And that's where, but this is where we interact with them. And, you know, the best chats,

the best information happens with those guys that are just chilling and you'll sit down next to Quinn Hughes or Antoine Roussel and, you know, most of the time you have your recorder out and you're doing a little interview. But sometimes it's just chit-chat. And it helps you add colors and context to the story. And that's what makes the best stories. And so our concern was how do we actually, and I think the Cox is concerned too, in credit to them was that they recognize that too.

They know how it works. They've been around. They've been doing this forever. Yeah. And so on Tuesday, it was good. They actually said, okay, first of all, they had to set up a separate space for the Islanders to use after their skate, which was in one of the extra dressing rooms just down the hall from the main media room and the main team rooms. And then they basically repurposed it for us to do one on once.

And so while the main kind of interviews were happening in the media room on a podium, which is, you know, I think a venue that we're used to seeing certainly with the coach. later on in the playoffs and I think in other sports, you know, the players were doing that. You know, basically if you could ask for a guy, you know,

I asked for Quinn Hughes and I went and talked to Quinn Hughes. And I had to stand behind sort of the before, it was a roped off area. Yeah. And there was, you know, six feet between us and Quinn was standing on a mic and I was there. And I had my little recorder running on the,

on the, um, they had a, you know, a monitor that was, right. Yeah, we were talking normally,

but, you know, we kind of like, this is kind of fun, you know, and it was good. It was essentially the same. conversation that I would have had with Quinn had I walked up to him in the dressing room.

And so that was appreciated. And that was, I think, a good compromise, all things considered. I think if we're able to continue with that, you know, I think everyone is, everyone benefits. The reader's benefit. Obviously, you know, it makes our job a lot easier. I think the alternatives when maybe getting on the phone, things like that. It's good. I think people have been proactive.

They've been responsible. You know, the reality is, is that, you know, the reason why there's six feet difference because that's how far you sneeze or cough. Right. And I think they're asking people to be responsible. And if you're dealing with some kind of illness, they want you to stay home. And, you know, because I think it's not just about worries about infecting the players and limiting their ability to perform. It's all the secondary contacts.

And so reality that these guys are traveling and could conceivably be transmitting things around North America. And think about the mumps. Yeah. Well, no, exactly. They're just getting passed around the league. Exactly. And that's, that is the concern. And it is, it is the broader public health approach is that, like, the reality is

is that a lot of people are going to get sick. And that's just how it is. But if they can, if they can, if they can smooth down the infection curve so that the people who really do need to go to hospital, you know, can be treated. And it's not everybody showing up the same time. Yeah. you know, that's the reality and that's part of what this is an effort in and is, is trying to mitigate the worst case scenario.

And, yeah, so I think, you know, in the end, I think the teams are handling this correctly. I think the leads handle this correctly. You know, it's like anything in life. If you can be proactive about something, things are probably going to work out better in the long run. This is a time definitely to be precautionary, I think. I think people would be surprised, though, you're about how much things have changed, like behind the scenes, people would be surprised that,

don't experience it, how much just general loitering there is? Oh, there's a lot of loitering. I mean, there's no doubt about it, right? I mean, I think, like I said, I thought it was important, an important dialogue to have, as I said, credit to the Canucks PR for being, you know, they get it, they get, you know, they want their stories told and they want their players. And, you know, there's some players that really do enjoy the experience. They really do like talking with us.

I think they like, they like that. I mean, it's part of the job. It's part of the job. I think they get it. You know, some guys are less inclined, and that's fun. It's, you know, everyone makes their choice. I mean, it's funny. I think about, I had, you know,

Trace Detcher's one of great chatters in that room. And last year, you know, I remember talking to him and it said, you know, what would you be if you hadn't made it as a hockey player? I'd be one of you guys. You know, and I think there's a, there's a, there's a, they like that. They like talking about issues. Well, you know, it's a cell, you know, I think it's, it is. I mean, generally hockey players are a type people and it's an A type thing to want to do

to talk, let's talk hockey. But it is, it's also, if you. spirit like it's like it's free marketing or or PR program right like if you have a story to tell and someone will tell it for you like like it makes yourself more marketable yeah I think it's just I think they also like I mean I do think off the whole I think for the most part I think they don't mind talking to us yeah you know there's certain there's always people you're not going to want to talk to and more close us for sure well and there's going to be like there's I mean we'll see where this goes but you know it directly ties into uh who were mentioning earlier the potential

of salary cap and there was like an excitement for a while I was like oh it could be 80 4 to 88 million and then now it's like I don't know about that so yeah we'll see all this I think the idea of playing games in uh in an empty rank is it's gonna be pretty eerie to watch that but i mean it's weird when you watch you know there's there have been examples there's always examples in soccer of course because teams you know i think there's you know teams are often getting punished for racist incidents and stuff like that and they still play the games but they have a close stadium and it's just two teams and it's huge state i mean there was uh i think it was uh I think it was Inter Milan played a game recently where there was nobody in the stands.

And it was for, for I think, uh, that was for other reasons, but it was just, yeah, you're like the, the voices just echo around the building.

It's, it's bizarre. Well, yeah. And I mean, now they, you know, we're recording this day,

they, they cancel the rest of the German league season and, and one of like the top three to five prospects in Temstutzel was the season is just over. Yeah. That's it. It's not going to affect this draft. You know, there's more things.

I'm just saying it's like, that's the, yeah. And I think that's the thing. It's such an unprecedented, especially a social media era for us to deal with all this and the news coming out. That's why we're both kind of like don't really know how to approach. Well, and I think the leagues, you know, it is a self-interest one. The leagues don't want to play in closed arenas.

Yeah. You know, in a place like Germany, the reason why they've canceled the season. And I think someone's telling me, watch for Switzerland to be next. You know, because what's happened in Italy is partly because it came on so fast that they literally have had to, like, shut down all other public services. because they literally are trying to like stop the spread. And what's happening now is they know it's coming. And they're saying, are there ways for us to at least in the long run mitigate having a initially huge spike?

And I, and you know, and they know that it's in their, I mean, leagues know that that's in their interest because if they can mitigate, if they can say this is going to be a long tail kind of situation, well, it's easier to justify keeping buildings open if it's not contributing to,

a big huge spike. But there's, I mean, we're already seeing it. San Jose, yeah, like you said, San Jose has decisions to make because they're not going to be able

to play in a rink with people in it right now. But so here's the thing. In that case, not to diminish the importance of it. Yeah. But for them, that's going to be a couple, I think it's like three games or whatever.

It's three games, yeah. In a lost season. Yeah. I mean, it's, but, you know, I mean, it's an interesting challenge. What I'm saying,

though, is if we spend this forward to the playoffs, Right. You know, we just, we spend the first 40 minutes of the show talking about how the Canucks have basically sold their soul to get a couple home playoff games. Yeah. What's going to happen to that revenue? Yeah. And I think that, I mean, it is, there is a list beyond.

It's also, yeah, you're right. I mean, there is inherently a self-interested business case for taking these precautionary measures because they want to keep their business running. Yeah. It's not just, I mean, yeah, there is a social responsibility aspect to it. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. And there's a certain.

laws being passed in certain areas where it's like you also can't operate around but yeah of course I mean at the end of the day of course all right they want to stay in business well wow that was a somber note to end the show on but otherwise a great chat you're great I had so much fun the napoleon deep dive yeah no problem come for the hockey stay for that um PJ plug some stuff where can people check you out what are you working on these things people like to yell at me on twitter I'm at rising action when you're breaking injury news and breaking injury news and whatever um I also, I've got a very, I think people like it, a funny Instagram at Patty Jay on the road.

Yeah, which, you know, I try to sort of. Look at you plugging your Instagram. Yeah, and at Provinsports.com. That's where my writing shows up. Beautiful. Occasionally we have our own podcast. Can I plug that? Yeah, go for it.

White towel. You can find it on all your favorite podcast players. It's not always me. It's often my colleagues, but maybe we have some fun. All right, man. Well, this is a blast. I'm glad we got to do this and we'll chat, I'm sure, sometime down the road. Thanks, we guys.

The Hockey P.DOCAST with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockeypediocast.