The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 348: Quarantine Rewatch, Penguins vs. Red Wings 2009

Episode Date: March 26, 2020

With the NHL season on hold, we're going to fill the void by going back and rewatching classic playoff games and moments from the past. In the first instalment of the series, Craig Custance helps deep dive the 2009 Stanley Cup Finals featuring the Penguins and Red Wings. The categories covered include:3:30 Where were you when..8:00 The lasting legacy of the game12:00 Setting the scene22:40 What aged the best34:40 What aged the worst49:00 TSN Turning Point and Most Rewatchable Sequence53:00 Biggest heat check performance56:45 Most unanswerable questions1:04:40 The 'That Guy' award1:06:00 Twitter take you wish you had in the moment1:08:00 Who won the game?Stay safe, get comfortable at home, kick back with a beverage of your choice, and watch along with us here: bit.ly/2WPA2EFSee acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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My name is Demetri Phil Poich. And joining me as my good buddy, Craig Cussons. What's going on, man? It's been so long since I've had you in the show. I know. I just, I can't believe you waited three years to invite me back. What was the, what did I do wrong in the last episode? That's not. I don't know. I think it was like, remember we had that drill guy or something? We had a bunch of, we have a bunch of incidents whenever we've had cousins on the PTOCast. You know, we decided to explore the market, look around, and we came back to you during the years of times. Yeah. Well, it's good to be back.

Oh, I, you're the perfect guess for this. All jokes aside, I, um, this and you, um, and what, Sean Gentile and Max, Boltman did the rewatch of the 2009 Stanley Cup final game seven on the athletic, and I highly recommend everyone goes to check that out. So I thought that I'd been planning on doing this game as the first edition of my PDO guest rewatchables as well during this quarantine period. And so it was a nice little mix where the game was fresh in your mind, and we could dive into it here in an audio format as well.

Yeah, it was such a fun exercise. And, you know, it's great minds, I guess in this case, Steel, like, because we're both, I'm sure, our fans of what Bill Simmons is doing with the Watchables podcast. And Gentile and I had been kicking around the concept of doing that on a full 60. And then when all of a sudden it's like, oh, we don't have any games to write about, maybe this is better off as, you know, for the athletic in print. And it made for, the format was interesting. It made for a good read.

I thought it was like fun and also kind of, I would say, nostalgic, like a lot of moments that we've forgotten. I'm sure you and I'll get into here. but I'm excited to do it this way too because I think this will be a lot of fun. Yeah, so yeah, we're, as people will notice, the rewatchable is one of my favorite podcasts and we're shame,

I'd like to think of shamelessly borrowing some categories here from them to help guide us. As long as they're fine with it. We were laughing because it's like one of the categories in that is, what is it? You know, who's at their apex mountain? And I'm like, we'll call it, who's at their peak?

Peak Mountain. Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, listen, if the ringer were ever to acknowledge the existence of the NHL, maybe they'd be upset. But I think they'll be fine in this case. But listen, we're, I mean, I want to have kind of like an open casting call as well to listeners

because this is the first of many I'm hoping to do on the show. And so if there's any suggestions for different categories or different games, I'm kind of leaving that out for people to decide upon. But in the meantime, you know, two pieces of homework. One, I want everyone to go and watch this game. It's on YouTube. We're going to provide a link along, with this podcast and I highly recommend it's a good two-hour sort of distraction and the other is um

you know that means you're hopefully staying inside staying safe uh enjoying this game with an adult beverage or any beverage of your choice uh from the comfort of your home and you're keeping yourself and those around you safe so uh those are the two pieces of homework from from us here the PDO cast and with that said let's uh let's get into the categories here's the first one i've got is where were you when um okay good at you during this game i was at this game so that That was, yeah. So I'm trying to think, this is 09. I think I was still at, this is pre-E-SPN even, maybe.

So either ESPN or the sporting news, or there was the national writer there. And in this case, so Joe Lewis Arena, where this game was at, the press box kind of famously was an afterthought. Like they built the arena and then they were like, oh, man, we need a press box. So they basically had this tiny, skinny press box. that, you know, even when you're sitting, if anybody walked by, you got, you got elbowed in the head constantly, or maybe that was just me, but you just were constantly being bumped. It was tiny. And in this case, in a game like this, you had the auxiliary press box, because there certainly wasn't room for national media and all that at this. So we were, they basically put boards down

over seats, and we were trying to balance laptops on our laps, mixed in, essentially with the crowd, which made for a pretty unbelievable experience. Like this, it was, you know, watching it again and seeing just how loud that crowd was. And, you know, especially kind of when you contrast it against how things are now in Detroit, where it's a half empty building and the fans are just patiently waiting for the product to be good again, it was just a reminder, oh my gosh, really just how, I don't say how far are they fallen, but really that's really, you know, just how different things are now for that market. Yeah, I had that actually as one of my things on what age the best was the Detroit crowd for Game 7.

Oh my gosh. I guess I've been so kind of desensitized over the past couple of years and watching the Red Wings games at Little Seasers Arena. And, you know, in the fans of the fans, like it's not like the product itself has given them much to cheer for, especially this season. But, yeah, the fans were just crazy. I mean, it was, every time the Red Wings would score, I know they only scored the one time in this game seven, but throughout that series, it was just, it was hectic. You could just, from watching it on YouTube, you could feel like you were in the building. I'm going to make you feel old here with my where was I win. This was, this game happened.

It conflicted with my high school graduation ceremony. Yeah, that's pretty, that's good. That's a good one. And so I remember, like, I missed the start of it walking across the stage, shaking hands with the principal, blah, blah, blah. And then afterwards, I remember going with family and some friends to a restaurant nearby. And I just remember, like, I wasn't as into hockey, obviously, as I am now. Like, I was aware of what was going on.

and we wanted to kind of see, check out what was going on with the game, because we knew the game was happening. I just remember people huddled around the TV by the bar, and it felt like something big was happening. So it was such a different time, right? Because I still wasn't on Twitter. I think I got on Twitter around late 2010, early 2011. And so, you know, I wasn't like going on there to see the reactions of people or sort of kind of

feel like I was part of this community. And it just made me think of how different the viewing experience is now where, like, I have basically, I remember last year watching Bruin's Blues game. seven and I'm like I have like a picture and picture experience where I've got the game up and I've got my tweak deck open and I'm when I'm like monitoring both just as closely to to kind of see what's going on and whatever else is thinking and so it's just like it's such a different experience now obviously 12 years later with all the technology we have it's crazy um so that I mean high school grader you are making me feel old max baltman might have won this category because he's he's a red

wing speed writer for the athletic and I think he said he was 13 and like he maybe was watching with like his youth hockey team or something like whatever it's at I'm like oh my gosh max my goodness I so I definitely feel old but it's it it did it did seem like a long time ago when you and I don't want to jump into other categories too soon but when you're when you're watching it and it's like oh there's bill garren that's right bill garren was on that team and you know is now the GM of the wild and all you know all these former players that have gone on to do other things it was a reminder of how much time has passed I feel like Bill garren looks better now in 20-20 than he did in this during this 2009 period he's got this like gray wispy beard i don't know what's going on i felt like uh he was definitely on

his last legs as a player i think the time off from from the game is probably done to get some good for him i would say everybody on the playing side like those those montages of people's beards and stuff by this point nobody looks good if you're a player and rossi sent happened to send a photo uh someone got of me and him at this game like interviewing people on the ice and i looked like i i was like bloated and gross And, you know, it's, it's, it's a long time on the road. A lot of bad, if you're in the media, a lot of bad food, late nights because you cover a game and go out a few beers. And it's not good for anybody involved. All right.

The lasting legacy of this game, or as I like to determine just why are we covering this? I think this one is more obvious than any other. I mean, it's got this perfect sort of storytelling clash of, it's a young penguins team in the sense that you've got this core that is still carrying the franchise in, Crosby, Malkin, and Latang. But you've also, like, they made such a considered effort of surrounding those guys with, like, Ruslan Fetatanko, Miro Jutan, Bill Gitton, you know, the defense with Ganscher and so on and so forth. Like, they do have a lot of veterans.

It's not necessarily a super young group, but just because that team hadn't broken through yet, it felt like it was a perfect foil for this Red Wings team that felt like it was on his last legs at a time. And certainly, as history is born out, prove that this was kind of their last stand. so to speak and so is that perfect marriage of those two and it was obviously the rematch as well of the previous summer when the Red Wings won in a six game series which was close in scoreline but when I went back and looked at it and watched some of the tape I was like wow that was that probably pretty easily could have been a sweep because I think the Red Wings had like a hundred shot

differential through those six games or something like that it was like it was a pretty one-sided affair so it felt like the penguins came into this looking slightly differently but felt like now that they'd gotten that under their belt. They had a better chance at actually knocking the Red Wings out once and for all. Yeah, to me, what made this such a rewatchable or a classic was, A, it was the start of kind of the Crosby narrative as this guy who, you know, achieves great things with his team, right? He wins a cup, and, you know, a year later, whatever, wins a gold medal.

So it's kind of the start of the Crosby legacy. I think that, you know, the fact that it's a game seven and it's still very much in the balance until the last second of the game to me. And, you know, I talked to all the players on the ice that were in, in that moment. And it's like, that to me makes it great. And I still think, I still think there was, it was a bit of an upset, right? Like, maybe to you, the Red Wings were on their way out. But, like at the time, the Red Wings seemed like they were so much better than everybody

else in the league. Even this young kind of on the rise penguins team. Because you had Nicholas Liddstrom, you know, Hall of Famers and Datsu, Kincetterberg, and Marion Hoso, which I'd even forgotten about, you know, Johann Franzon, if you watch the first, and if people listen and go and watch it, if you watch the first five, ten minutes of this game, he's just a, he's just trucking people and it's just absolute machine out there.

And you're like, oh yeah, I forgot when the mule was engaged, how absolutely dominant he was. And he was always a guy that was so good in the playoffs for this Red Wings team. And wasn't, you know, we're not even talking about probably a top five player on that team or whatever. So I think, the fact that it was kind of the start of the Crosby era and the end of this this great dynasty, the Red Wings era. And it maybe happened sooner than we thought made it so memorable.

No, you're right. I was kind of overselling that, I think, especially, it's easy to say in hindsight, but you kind of need to see it for us to believe it. It's one of those things. It's like, with like Roger Federer and tennis or something, right? It's like, if they keep winning and keep winning, you just kind of assume that they're going to keep winning. And then after the fact, you can go like, oh, well, obviously, you know, they get a lot old, they lost for these reasons. Yeah, let's see the seat now. Yeah. Exactly. In the moment. And I also think, I mean, we haven't mentioned it yet. Like, you basically go from the Red Wings winning that series the year before pretty decidedly. I know the two teams look quite different, but you're also taking, what,

the third best player off the Penguins in Marion Hosa and just dropping them into this Red Wings team in 2008, nine. And so you had that storyline as well of him switching sides and free agency on this one-year deal and looking to finally get over the hump and win a ring as well. And so there was so much going on there. I think, you know, we're setting the scene for this leading up to the game seven, because I think the game seven itself isn't the most well-played game, I think, as I think games typically aren't. I mean, it's understandable. There's so many nerves. It feels like everyone's gripping their sticks a bit tighter and not want to make any mistakes. But I went back and rewatched, most of the highlights of the games leading up to this.

And there were certainly some stinkers, I think, game five in Detroit, now Palo Dattatat, who comes back into the lineup and they just completely blow the penguins out, five nothing, and Marcondria Flery gets pulled. But I think especially the games in Pittsburgh, it felt like games three, four, and even six were probably the most, like, highly, highest level of play, I think, and the most competitive in terms of it felt like there was so much happening. And maybe that's a testament to how good this Red Wings team was that it felt like they were taking care of business at home pretty routinely and kind of making it just look like

another day at the office, whereas when it went to Pittsburgh, it felt like the penguins had to really throw like pretty much everything at the Red Wings just to get those victories. Yeah. And that was just in kind of overall thoughts on this game was even it wasn't a great game in terms of how it was played because the Penguins score early and then really, I don't even know if they had a shot on goal for the first 15 minutes of the third and we're just basically holding on for dear life against this Red Wings team. And you watch, like, every memorable moment, aside from those goals, I felt like it was the Red Wings doing something.

You know what I mean? Like, you just, you felt like it was so tilted in terms of the way the game was played. And the other thing I remember is, is Flurry was so much better in this game than I remember. Like, I mean, we'll get to the save he makes at the end. But, like, that's the memorable moment. But he was, he was the reason this game was even close. He made a couple huge saves early on. Well, Flurry gets pulled in Game 5 in Detroit.

they go down 5-0-0 late and the commentators are talking about how they're going to need Flurry for game 6 if they're going to get back in this series. And so, you know, they don't want to get this out of hand. I want to preserve his confidence as they put Matthew Garron in there. And right off the bat in game 6, I think like three or four minutes in, and Henrik Zetterberg has basically like a point blank, like one timer. And Flurry makes this amazing save and the Penguins go down and score quickly thereafter. And, you know, the fact that he only gave up that one goal in game six and one goal in game seven, like this was a big thing for him and and and and flurry is i mean we could probably do a full podcast just on like what this game meant for his legacy and then what happened thereafter like it felt like in terms of

just uh pure like twist and turns for a career no one's had more than that guy no absolutely because i mean it bought him so much rope right especially with like the penguins fans like he's so beloved there and then he he just had that stretch where he wasn't particularly good for the penguins right and and and but you couldn't like penguins fans are really defensive of him and And like that love affair with Flurry and the Penguins fan base, basically, this is where it was locked in. And now, now when you pan out of this career, I think that, you know, there was people that were critical of them. Like, there was a time where it was like, you're not even sure this guy should be, you know, a top 10 goalie. And it's turned out Flurry's been probably, it's been really, really good.

Like, he's a Hall of Famer. And there was a time maybe midway through his career where you started to doubt that. I think the other interesting thing for me here, like, like in just in terms of capturing what this series meant or what we had going into the game seven was if you look at the year-long numbers, the Red Winks clearly look like the superior team. They were still the class of the league. And I think the Penguins, you know, notably early in February were a couple points out of a playoff spot.

They fire Michelle Therian. They bring in Dan Baosma, who was running their AHA team. They rattle off this 18, 3, and 4 stretch where they just start. playing significantly better too for whatever reason. Whether there was a system change, whether it was a motivational thing, whether they just needed a different voice for whatever reason. They basically went from being this like bottom of the barrel. I think they were like 26 or 27th in the league in every single underlying shot metric,

which at the time no one was really looking at, but just to look back in hindsight where they were legitimately not a good team for the first whatever four or five months of the season. And then all of a sudden, Bilesmo comes in and they start being this like 54 or 55% shot share team that's rivaling the Red Wings. And so when you look at it from that segment of the final 25 games, which funny enough, over time, we've sort of adopted as a good predictor of playoff success and how good teams are heading into it.

And like the Blues last year, for example, were tops in the league in that. It's funny to look back at it now and be like, oh, no one was really talking about this at the time, but there's Penguins team beyond just more wins and losses who started playing significantly better as well. Right. It's funny. I don't know when. to me, the kind of analytics national conversation shifted.

I don't know what year it was, but it was. I don't remember that one year. With the Kings, I think. Was it the Kings? Well, there was the one year where the Minnesota Wild were like house of fire for the first half of the year. And all, I think this was the big PDO stat. And all the, you know, analytics guys were like, this is not sustainable.

And, you know, and everyone else is writing about, hey, this is, what is a surprise, great team? And then it was like, then they collapsed. And so that was to me the moment. of where analytics kind of came to the forefront. This was probably right before that, like a couple years right before that. So there weren't, there wasn't kind of this other conversation going on that, hey, this Penguins team, this isn't the same team that you saw the first half of the season.

Like, this is a completely different team that should be Detroit's rival and should make it a long run. And, you know, I think that they made those changes. They also had some players at the deadline. Like, there was some pretty significant moves made there by Ray Chiro to, you know, to, to, get this team where it was and you know all that's been forgotten the other thing I'd forgotten kind of leading into this game was Malkin

there was something I want to say there was a suspension rescinded or a game is called something happened with Malkin where he was allowed to play and Red Wings fans quickly reminded us in our in our comment section that like they felt like Walkin shouldn't have been in this game and he ends up I think

it's the first goal that he makes a play that leads to it so it's I mean there's so much kind of forgotten history that goes into this. Oh, there's going to be a big genome all-con section coming up here. I'm excited about that. Yeah. Well, you mentioned just to put a bow on those moves. I mean, the Penguins sort of reloaded in the summer where they added some of that, you know, veteran experience or toughness that you think of when teams fall short in the playoffs, they add Mirrojatan, they add Matt Cook, they add Ruslan Fedetenko. But it was at the, around the deadline

right after they made the coaching change where, you know, in hindsight, I forget what my take was on the trade at the time. But I remember thinking that Ryan, Whitney just because of his point totals was a top player and he was playing sure enough I think he was second on the team in 5-15 usage and second overall behind just Sergei Gonchar on the penguins and they basically just flip him they get back um Chris Kunitz and he all of a sudden um you know jumps in and starts playing first line of wing with city crosbie it's very rare that you see that type of a a trade like it was it was a natural flip in terms of positions but also like that significance where a guy just jumps in and all of a sudden starts playing with

with Kunitz it was funny to look back actually at the wingers that were playing on the top six with Malkin and Crosby where it's like not necessarily a real who's who of of town but it's funny it's funny to look back at I mean it speaks to the greatness of those two guys that they basically had these grinders who were just able to win puck battles and be in the right spots and they clearly helped get those guys to ascend to to higher levels than they had previously in their career. Yeah, I always, one of the things I'm always, you know, fascinated by, like there was that you had the group of young penguin stars that came up together, the Malkins, Flurry Crosby. And then there was also the, the young kind of next wave

that was part of that core for a while. So you had, you know, Ryan Whitney, you had a guy like Colby Armstrong and Eric Christensen and these other young players that probably thought, boy, we're going to be part of this great core of players for the penguins for the next 10 years and win a bunch of Stanley Cups and all of a sudden, obviously history changes. And Ray shared that a couple of times. I remember talking to him. I think this was a conversation we had just about drafting best player available or building up organizational depth.

It was just kind of a draft philosophy. And he's like one of the things they just felt like at the time, I don't know if it was undervalued in the draft, but they're like, they kept looking for defensemen. And they're like, we always feel like you can get the winger you need or whatever by spinning a defenseman. And they did it in this case, and they did it with Alex Gologoski and the James Neal trade. Like this was part of the playbook for the, they also drafted Jake Muzzen right around this time. Unfortunately, I think he didn't sign and end up signing with the Kings as a free agent.

But I mean, this is what this is part of the game plan. Like let's draft and develop these young defensemen. And then if we have the opportunity, spin them. Well, it was a ballsy decision to make too because, you know, at the time I don't think people were so necessarily looking at this. I think we were much more preoccupied with points for a defenseman. But like, speaking of that... You were preoccupied with like the senior prom or whatever was going on. Well, yeah, I was.

Obviously, yeah. I mean, it was a big decision of who else could take. But for, like, I was just looking at Ryan Whitney. It was so funny. I was pulled up his natural statics page. And I think part of that five-on-five sort of essential for this team was he was one of their worst shot share players. And he was like at like 40% or something ridiculous while playing an insanely heavy workload

on their top pair. And it was a palsy decision for, for race, or do that just from the perspective of in season they were sending him out and I don't think they were necessarily ready to fully trust you know Gagoski wasn't playing in the playoffs for them at that point letang was still like 19 minutes per game in game seven he only played 16 so it's not like they really felt fully confident and completely unleashing those young guys

instead they were like we're just going to double down and go insanely heavy on 35 year old sergey gonshire and they just like leaned on him to play like 24 25 minutes a night and and and I mean I mean, it worked out for them, but it certainly wasn't, you know, in hindsight, it looks like a great decision. But I think at the time, it must have been, you know, a particularly sort of risky or perilous one because if Gontr goes down there, they would have been pretty screwed. I want to see that my, if I was doing trade grades at the time. Now, I want to just go back and look at everything I wrote leading up to this or I was. You mentioned whether or not you were on Twitter.

I was on Twitter. I signed up. I'm just looking now January 2009. So somewhere, and I don't even know how to access any of this, I'm sure I have either reaction to these. deals or or at least some pictures of Joe Lewis Arena in the moment, which would be fun. All right. What age the best? I'm going to say this game.

Because the game itself isn't bad, but I haven't watched the hockey game in two weeks. Just watching hockey aged well? I just couldn't live with myself knowing that King Sends was the last game I'd watched before the quarantine. And so just having a full hockey game to dive into and just hearing familiar voices and just seeing the faces. I felt much more comfortable. So I highly recommend people just go and just watch some some hockey on YouTube. It's a very, very comforting feeling. I can say that. So we were watching it and we're slacking Max and Sean and I. And it just was, it was so much fun.

And like my son came in and watched. And it was just, it was fun to be talking hockey and watching hockey and having this two hour block of ignoring everything else going on around us. So that definitely aged really well to me. I mean, a couple of things to me. To me, you know, the idea of Mark Andre Fleury being a clutch goalie age as well, right? Like that's kind of this narrative in the world of hockey. And this is a guy you want out there and all this stuff. And he's had some huge moments.

And if you really believe that and then you go back and watch it, it certainly, I think that concept age as well. I thought the broadcast aged well. Like Doc's call. I know people, not everybody loved. Doc Emrick and, you know, Pierre McGuire certainly has his critics, but I thought Doc's call was really good in this game. I have a Doc at Eddie's commentary corner here as a category. Okay, all right. Let's get into it right now.

So, because I have just a couple of quick thoughts. It's kind of a flyby category. I think it's funny that it sounds very similar to what you would hear in 2020, which we were talking about how like very few, very few things feel not familiar, but similar, I guess. to what it would be like now with technology and how much stuff's changed. But like, you really, just from purely listening to this broadcast, would not be able to tell that it was from 2009. And I think in theory, you're right, that does make it age the best just because so often we listen to or see stuff like movies or TV shows from 10, 15 years ago. And it like seems from this entirely different era where it just doesn't hold up over time. And in this case,

like it really does sound very similar to what you'd hear right now. It was. Like that, like that's, even the music and everything, it just struck me as like, oh, this could be showing right now. And I don't know what that says about the evolution of the coverage of the game or not, you know, that we're sitting there going with this. Yeah, you know, you'd want. And not to like, you know, pile on that we're missing hockey in the potential playoffs, but like this was the playoffs we're supposed to get player tracking and really see, you know, I think we're about to start. We're on this precipice of the game looking very different from a broadcast perspective because of the player tracking that's coming. And games like this are going to be like, oh, my gosh, we don't know, hey, how can we don't know who's on the ice, you know, with little arrows. And, you know, there's going to be all these different, how, how do I know, you know, how fast paddle datsuk skating or whatever they're going to have.

So I think, I think right now it looks like it hasn't changed and we're kind of, that's going to adjust. We, one of our categories with Sean and Max was peak Doc I'm, I reckon we're talking about the broadcast. And Sean pointed out this moment where Muhammad Ali is in the stands. Right. And Doc launches into this, this, you know, the quick story that, you know, we didn't know existed. And then he cuts himself off, goes right back into the action and says, we'll save the rest for another time.

It was so doc. It was so perfect. Well, speaking of that, Pierre McGuire, I think actually, and I think it's a good thing, played a smaller role in this operation compared to 2020. You hear. I think, like, there was fewer sort of interjections and comments from where he was sitting between the benches. I think he let Doc and Eddie control the flow of the game and then sort of tell that story much better. I think it served the broadcast well. But during the timeout

with 117 left in the game, the game's on the line, the Stanley Cup's about to be handed out, they show Ray Shiro in the press box. And Pierre McGuire goes on this just perfectly vintage monologue about how Ray Shiro's dad coached the All-Star Game in Joe Lewis in 1970, and he lost that game. And Ray Sherro told him that he was going to come back to Joe Lewis and win this game. I guarantee that interaction never happened. That's just an insane thing to that. Like, 1979, what the hell?

It was amazing. So that was Gentile, he told that story in Peak Pierre moment. And he said, I'm going to read just two sets. He goes, it was an absolute tour to Forrest from our guy. After Babcock used his timeout with 117 left, he told the Frenchero story in the 1979 or 80 All-Star Game, followed by calling Biosma Danny. It was a four-bagger Grand Slam. And he said it all in like 11 seconds, which was amazing.

Edzo and Doc, that's Ray Shiro, the general manager of the Pittsburgh Penguins. With this building open, the All-Star game was here in 1979-80. His father was a coach of the Philadelphia Flyers. He coached in the All-Star game here. His dad lost. Ray Shiro said, I want to come back here tonight and win this thing right here in Detroit. He had an amazing bit too where he's talking about how Sidney Crosby's sitting beside him, and that's bad for the penguins because that means he's not on the ice.

And like, the camera perfectly zooms in slowly while he's saying it. And Cindy Crosby is legitimately sitting beside him on the bench just like so upset, just not. But you can tell he can hear what Pierre is saying, and he's just like so unhappy with the situation. That's pretty great. That's pretty great. So yeah. Okay. So what else I'll say age the best?

I think the Red Wings dynasty. So, you know, dating. back to the Russian 5 and the dock coming out and sort of reliving that, the 25-year playoff streak, I think our appreciation, we've talked a bit about analytics and sort of looking at stuff that we weren't probably factoring in in 2009. You just go back and sort of these Red Wings teams, the 0809 team wasn't quite as dominant as the 0708 team, but they really were sort of the goat five-on-five teams in terms of just maintaining puck possessions, stringing together passing plays, just feeling like they just grind opposing teams into the ground. I

It's ridiculous. That 08 team had like a 59% shot share for the full season. And it's just obscene. It's stuff you don't see. I think they literally those two teams, 07 to 09, were the top two shot share teams we had so far in the analytics era going back to 07. So it's just we haven't really seen anything like it. And part of it was this accumulation of talent and them having a leg up on the competition

with drafting and getting some of these guys later in the draft from Europe that no one else was taking. part of it was some sort of shenanigans with financials and making all the money work, but they just had this ridiculous core. And it was on its last legs and it was not fading on its way out, but it was still so dominant in the season. Yeah. So to me, another one would be Nicholas Littstrom, or if you wanted to say, like the concept of him being the best defenseman of his generation, just watching him at that age.

And he played, I'm sure, over 30 minutes. I haven't looked at the box score. but it's at one point after the second period he played more than 10 minutes just in the second alone and he was just like he was perfect and he's you're just watching him and he's like it really in an alternate universe if he scores it would have been so fitting for him to score that that goal at the end because I thought he played so well and it was just a reminder um I mean he he is this soon as he left Detroit like that's when the fall began right and you're like how important was this guy yeah all these they have all the other other other great players, but this was a guy just controlling the game at that age, which was amazing.

Yeah, and he played like 27 or 20 minutes in this game. And especially as the game went on and it felt like he wasn't leaving the ice and he was still so good. And he still had a couple of really, really dominant seasons after that. But yeah, the Red Wings depth here too. I mean, it was funny to look back at. I mean, it was entirely, entirely different salary cap world. But, like, Henrik Zetterberg, not on his ELC, is making 2.65 million per season right now on a four-year deal when this game's happening. Is that what he was odd? Oh my God.

You'll hand friends and making under a million. Both guys signed a mega double-digit year contracts for the following season. So this was their last year of having that luxury. But yeah, just the sort of machinations of how the Red Wings were able to have this type of depth, you know, you look at whether it's Yuri Hooler or Michael Samuelson or Valterio football, like they just have all these. These guys that did age so well because whether it was for the Red Wings or for other teams with Samuelson going and playing with Cedines in Vancouver or Philpilla, you know, his best years

were in Detroit, but he goes to Tampa Bay and still has the shelf life. I mean, he's still in the league. It's, it's, it's, they had all these guys that were kind of bit parts for them at this point, because they still did have those top dogs that were older than them. But, um, they just had so many pieces. Then you look at like, Darren Helm is on the fourth line and he's just completely, wrecking havoc with his speed and physicality. Justin Ablocator makes a cameo here and scores a couple goals. Jonathan Erickson, they have all these guys that were around for so long after. So, yeah, I think the Red Wings depth did age the best.

Yeah, that's a great one. And I was going to say something similar, and that's probably to Red Wings fans a little more controversial, but I would say the contracts that Ken Holland gave to guys like Erickson and Helm actually aged, they haven't aged well. So there's no debating that. But understanding the thought process, I guess if I could put it that way, age just really well, because when you watch this game, Erickson was good.

Darren Helm, like you said, there was points he was the best player at their, at least the most noticeable player on the ice. Just flying around. And you're like, oh, okay, you forget, oh, yeah, these guys were really good. And they were really good, complimentary players on a good team. And it just became problematic when you're asking them to be more than that. And, I mean, that's what we saw towards the end there. By final, what age the best?

I mean, I think the stars in general in this game, did just I mean the star power is just insane I think the player that age is the best and I highly recommend people just go and just go on a YouTube deep dive fall into a rabbit hole and just watch as much as you want but my god young of Genie Malkin I don't think like our hockey parlance doesn't have a term to describe how good he was I think we need to go to like the British football scene and use the word sublime here he's just he's just a hockey playing robot like it's insane I kind I kind of forgot because it's been so long now. And, you know, he's had a ton of miles put on him, but also, like, his body just because

of how big he is. And he's put on some weight as well in terms of just balking up as you naturally do when you get into your late 20s. He's slowed down a little bit and is more methodical now and picks his spots and still has those flashes of greatness. When Crosby was out this year, he was remarkable carrying the Penguins team. But just going back and watching, like, he was so lean, he was so fluid, just watching him kind of command the game and just move up and down the ice.

Like there were sequences where he just, it doesn't resemble anything unlike, I've never really seen anything like it. Like, it's crazy to watch it. And I just had a whole newfound appreciation for just watching him at this time because he was just so dominant. Yeah.

I mean, he'll go down as probably the greatest underappreciated player. And we appreciate him. Like, we love Malkin. But of this era, we're going to look back and be like, oh yeah, this guy was unbelievable.

And like along those lines, my last one would be, just to support what you're saying, the star power, there's a stretch early on where it goes into four on four. And I'm sitting there watching and you're just rolling out, you know, Malkin, Crosby, the Tang, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Datsuk, Hosa.

Like, this is, I mean, it's, I mean, these are Hall of Famers and during this stretch. And, I mean, it happened the whole game, but when you, like, distilled it down to that moment in time where we're going best on best in four on four. It was pretty great. All right. What age is the worst?

How about, so the one thing I noticed, like we, in this era, you look at the coaching staff and of these teams and you're like, okay, for the next stretch, like Dan Balsma is considered the best coach in the U.S.S. You know, he wins this game and has the stretch and coaches the U.S. Olympic team in Sochi. Mike Babcock is the best coach in the game. And now here we are in 2020. And Dan Bilesma is, you know, is an assistant coach in Detroit and Mike. is is going to have to go into some sort of transition here or you know whatever he's just waiting for his shot after what happened in Toronto and so I guess what age is the worst is this concept that those two are the best you know coaches for their countries in the game yeah yeah I think

the Mike Babcock thing we don't have to sort of get into that or really get it but it's yeah the way the broadcast is speaking about him it just it feels like it's like Mike Babcock and then everyone else when it comes to the hockey coaching greatness at this point and and it's amazing how how much that's that has changed Um, you know, the, I have a bunch of stuff here. Uh, I think Chris Osgood's, uh, style. Oh my gosh. What about his mask? Well, the mask. I think his like stand up style of like, there's times where he like, someone like kind of just puts a weak shot on it and he's like full stance, just kicking it away. Like similar to like you like, you'd see that a lot in like the, the Gretzky clips where like he's

scoring on these goalies where they just like, they're like fumbling around and kind of like tripping over themselves and it's like oh yeah i think alex eventually gonna probably score a million goals if you played at this point just watching like osgood was one of the last ones and it felt like it was on the way out where it's like you just made it look so dangerous every time it's like i felt like every single shot could have and he was good in this series he had like a 930s 8 percentage he had the shout out

but um he's the con smite winner if they win that game he wins the can smith and i don't know if we're going to go down any alternate realities but he probably is in a hall of fame if they win that game because he wins a cons might he wins his fourth Stanley Cup and you know he was really good in the playoffs so I think I think he probably like who who loses the most or whatever if that's a category Chris Oz could probably is the leading candidate in terms of legacy okay so do you want to know the the top five goals saved above expected leaders in this season for the regular season for 2008 9 goals save above okay yes let's hear it Henrik Lundquist was plus 41 so you see 41 more goals than you'd expect based on his shot profile, played 70 games. It was a stretch where he played 70 plus in four straight years. We're not going to see that again. Tim Thomas was second plus 25.5. So that's, that's quite a, quite, quite, quite, quite, a cliff, 932 save percentage in only 53 games. Cam Ward, one of his best seasons, sneakily on a hurricanes team, plus 13, Roberto Luongo, plus 13 in Vancouver,

and Jonas Hiller, who just recently retired, plus 12. Oh, Yonis Miller. So I wanted to get a bit of shut out. Sixty fifth overall, Mark Andre Fleury, minus nine. 70 second overall Ty Conklin minus 13 86th and the worst goalie in the league Chris Osgood with a cool minus 30.8 Wow, so you're not putting him in the hall regardless of what happens in this game.

He had an 885 save percentage this season in 46 games and we're going to get into most unanswerable questions but for me it was like, what if the Red Wings had just given Jimmy Howard a shot? you know he had a 924 save percentage in 63 games for them literally the next season he was already 25 at this point so i'm not really buying like he was unproven in the nchel but i'm not buying the argument that he wasn't ready from like a mental maturity perspective right it just feels weird that they would trust him to play 63 games literally the next season and he would do amazingly in

them but at this point and that's acknowledging that osgood had a 930 save percentage in this postseason and it was really good in this series all that aside, I just think, like, from a big picture perspective, just the timing of all that seems kind of bizarre to me. Yeah, I know. You're right. So, I mean, if you remember the kind of the philosophy with Detroit was, you know, in terms of balancing the cap, it was to not spend in goal, right?

And at the, you know, and you saw Arisman bring that down to Tampa on some level, at least early on. And so that, like, there was, there was some methodology. And then the other, so you're talking about a couple philosophies. And the other philosophy, of course, kind of historically in Detroit. and that era was so the young kids basically had to beat down the door and overripe or whatever phrase we want to use. And Jimmy Howard was kind of experiencing that in that moment.

But that's really fascinating. The other thing that I like got a kick out of in terms of what's age the worst, you could tell NBC and the NHL was still kind of working through their digital strategy, right? This must have been right before smartphones came out because you had these, all these promos for like Vcast and NBC to go and these flip phones that they were to show. going and like just to see all that old technology that really seemed dated now and really not that long ago over time. Yep. Yeah.

To your point, I did have how the Red Wings handled young players as a whole. Maybe we can, I don't know if we could attribute that to Mike Babcock. I mean, you know, certainly in Toronto it felt like there was some of that leftover as well in terms of philosophy of making young guys earn it. But it felt like, and for years after as well, right? Like you'd have like, like how long did it take until Gustav Nykwe? and Thomas Tatar were playing big roles on the Red Wings. They were like already in their mid-20s at that point, and considering what we know about aging curves

and how maybe start players peak when they're like 22, 23, 24, maybe you should be playing them earlier as opposed to having them season in the HL for years and years. Now, when this team was so deep and had so many veteran players that were still really good, it makes it easier to do that. But as the Red Wings started to thin out, it felt like they were still kind of operating that way.

And maybe that was part of their, they're undoing as well when the margin for error kind of shrunk so i think i think you know there's certainly that as well and then i think the red wings you have to kind of put them here just like i mean all jokes aside about this season um like they haven't made it past the second round since this series yeah what's the worst the entire franchise yeah i mean they're heading towards their fourth straight miss after 25 years of making in a row and and that happens that's kind of the cyclical nature of the sport but yeah like i think what 2012 13 when they push the the black hawks to seven was like their last sort of legitimately really competitive really strong season and that was like a lifetime ago yeah no i i think that's fair i so that i i probably miscalculated or i i didn't anticipate how much this loss still hurt redwings fans like i felt like in doing this exercise at the athletic we were far enough removed where even red wings fans could could go and get a laugh or whatever or just kind of take a nostalgic look at this game that would that just from a

outside perspective was such a great game and a cool moment in time. And man, you know, the anger from Red Wings fans when we posted this and it was in their feed to like, they're like, okay, we're all, you know, quarantined and we had the worst season ever. And this is this is what we're getting to relive one of the biggest daggers. Because you're right. Like, this was it. And if they win this, you know, they're back to back cups and it's a whole different thing. And they're celebrating.

And it's a nice cap on that era. instead it's still a huge painful loss for these fans clearly based on the reaction and and you're right like this was it and there was that little blip against the blackhawks where they probably should have won that series and and then kind of it went downhill I have got also just a few more they've got a defenseman breakout passes in this in this era of hockey like I think that is you know people talk about how like physicality has changed the most and like hitting and fighting and stuff. Like, I mean, the defense went in this game, you've got, well, you've got Hal Gill, Rob Skudery,

Brooks Orpick, Mark Eden for the penguins. You've got, you know, young Jonathan Erickson, but like, you've got a bunch of guys playing defense position that would probably not be playing or definitely not be playing big roles in today's game just because they don't have the ability to get the puck from point A to point B with speed and efficiency. Like, they're just treating the puck like it's a grenade here, whether it's going off the boards or just rifling these passes up the ice that are

going to get their players killed. Like it's crazy. Well, the exhibit A of that was Brad Stewart. Like this was not a good game. Brad Stewart. Yeah. Like what's age is the worst was, you know,

his performance. And like, you know, so Brad was that that prototypical, you know, physical stay at home defensemen that you could coaches liked and they could trust. And man,

this was a pretty forgettable game for him. Well, and if you look at it like, just comparing it to today's game and i think this ties into we're talking about the actual quality of this game it's like for goals to be scored it felt like so many of them were just wild sad it kind of scrambles around the net where like the goalies are literally being pushed into the net and then just forcibly somehow goes through them and in like it's so many things had to happen like there's there's so few just clean like rush plays it felt like if there ever was a rush shows because of like a block shot and kind of a loose puck recovery or a defenseman making a bad

pinch like Brad Stewart, David when Max Talbot scores a second goal here. It was very few sort of effort things we take for granted in today's game were just like beautiful passing that leads to two on ones. And so I think that certainly should go into what age to worse. It's we talk about the broadcast looks very similar 2020 just from like a stylistic perspective. You can definitely tell that this was from a different era of the NHL. Like are we that are we far enough for moved where you could just place like the Tampa Bay Lightning and even though this is like a Hall of Fame laden team or the start of the Crosby era like that they're blowing the doors off them just because of style of play like the defenseman couldn't keep up I think so like I think people

like would be like oh my God like Mikkel Sergachev like what is he how is he like did you see that crossover he did at the blue line like people would just be blown away it would be like he came from outer space to do these moves so I think there'd be an element of that for sure um okay my final wet age the worst and this is like this is supposed to be a fun podcast but we have to if we're kind of capturing this game johan franzin um man like it was just it's sad because he was so good in this game and he was doing stuff around the net just causing havoc just with like screens rebounds deflections just he was such a handful it felt like the penguins needed to have like two guys on him just to contain him and um it's kind of chilling to go

back and watch and with what we know now as well. And unfortunately, in preparation for this podcast, I was trying to get a better sense of timeline and figure everything out. And I watched some videos of him taking hits on YouTube. And it was just, it was, it was really like it was haunting. And it kind of sucks. And it's unfortunately sort of a reality that we have to reconcile with when we kind of fetishize some of these older games because there was a price to be paid for the, for the style of play. Yeah. It was. It was shocking both just as in a reminder of how good he was. I'd just forgotten how good Frenzen was.

And yeah, you're right. Like when you sit there and go, okay, then the things he had to suffer through. And it's funny. We know now, like he came out and had those comments about playing for Mike Babcock and how hard that was for him. I did find myself, there was that time out late in the game. And Mike is addressing the team. And I'm just, I was watching Fonzon just to see, hey, is there any detection of him, like,

tuning it out or anything? to see, hey, were there hints of what was to come or already happening there? And yeah, I think that's a very valid point. And even along those lines, we were talking about, you know, there was a hit from Cronwall on Talbot, like the puck has got gone, and it's way after the play, and he leaves his feet, and there's no call. And it's like, this would have been a debate for two days on Twitter. And it's like, you know, we're 10 years removed.

And it was like, oh, just keep on playing, boys. Matt Cook was an absolute maniac in this series. He was taking some liberties. Late hits. Game 6. I think no one made a big deal about it because Dadu skated off okay. But he like, the fuck's gone for like three seconds and he just completely launches himself into him. And it would probably be like a fine or like a 10 game suspension in today's game.

I don't know. I'm not sure. But yeah, it's it's kind of crazy. And man, it's really tough because it made me so sad just. kind of thinking about Franson and what he's gone through since then and watching that. And just we've, I think what, what's aged the worst or maybe what, what's aged the most is the way we think about this stuff. And also like, or I guess how we thought about it back then, because I remember myself,

like, I was kind of callous thinking about this stuff. I was like, I want these guys to play. I think they should keep playing if they can. And the argument would be, oh, well, the player wants to stay out there. So let them go. And it's like, now we know that maybe, especially if you've taken a big hit, you're probably not in the right frame of mind to be making those decisions, but also you should kind of give the car keys to someone else because this is like a really big deal. And, you know,

the year before, Franson gets completely cold clock by Gary Roberts at one point, you know, in 2010, Douglas Murray just like elbows him in the face for no reason. And like fans are just like booing Franzen and he's like getting peeled off the ice by the trainer. And then he just stays on the bench and then goes out there on the next shift and everyone is congratulating him for being tough and playing through it. Right. And with what we know now, I think that's age the worst because. Yeah, that's...

And thankfully, we've really come around on this topic. Yeah. No, I think that's a... That's good. That's a positive. And, you know, we're... I guess what's age the best, like our understanding of it. Our understanding of...

And a big part of that is, I mean, this is a Crosby game. And it's... He has that, the Winter Classic moment, whatever it is, a year later, year... Whenever that he, that Capp's game was. And that became the big turning point in all this. Okay. So I'm going to lump these two together.

I've got like the TSN turning point, which is like the defining moment. And then the most rewatchable sequence, I think, for future episodes of this concept, hopefully be two different things to point out. This game was so low event. The shots were 2418 that there's not very many rewatchable sequences. And I think in particular, you mentioned the penguin shots in the third period. NBC runs this graphic with seven minutes left in three seconds. And the shots on goal in that period are five, nothing for the Red Wings with seven

minutes left in that period. The penguin's only shot in the third is like this, if you any Molligan slapper from the point with four minutes left, and that's pretty much it. They're like, they play the sort of consummate, like block a shot, dump the puck out, the center, change, do it all over again, like 50 times. And so it doesn't make for like the greatest viewing. I think if you watch the game as a whole, the intensity of it really sucks you in, and so you kind of need to view it from that perspective. But I think, you know, it's got to be the flurry save here in terms of the sort of the most rewatchable sequence. right like the final what five seconds of the game yeah that in terms of sequence or moment like

that that is like if you want to just catch one thing that that captures the intensity it's it's that final stretch um of time i the part i'd forgotten about or just in terms of uh another rewatchable moment or turning point was maybe the last 90 seconds of the second period where detroit is just pouring it on and you're sitting there going there's no way they don't score here and they were dominant and flurries guys are blocking shots and i think malcon blocks a shot at one point flurry makes great save and somehow they just hang on which essentially they did the whole game after they went up to nothing but that that just in terms of moments and rewatchable like it was it was intense and and um you just forgotten how how close this came to being a different game well it's

crazy that um like crosbie gets tangled up with friends and he kind of gets like stapled up against the boards. Yeah. And so there's 1433 left in the second. He struggles off the ice. His next shift is with 1021 left in the third. He goes out for like 30 seconds. Yeah, it takes a face off.

They're talking about how he's laboring and how much he's struggling. And he's basically just glued on the bench for the rest of the game, I think. And, you know, the Penguins hold on. They had the luxury of a two-nothing lead already at that point. But, man, like for such a classic game to involve all these star players and, you know, arguably the sort of the name and the face of this entire upcoming generation. We're talking about how like Crosby's Penguins finally make that leap and win their cup.

And for him, you know, he played a role in getting him there. But just in terms of this game purely alone, like he really doesn't do anything. No. And I'd forgotten in terms of things that we'd forgotten how early that injury was. Like for some reason, I knew Sid got hurt. And I knew, you know, I remember that being a thing and him kind of coming out and taking a world to test it out and trying to play. I didn't know what happened when it did midway through the second.

Like I felt like it was a third period thing or whatever. And, you know, and there's this interview at one point with Dan Baisman. Dan's like, no, he'll be back. You know, he'll be back out there. And we never really understood the severity of it because you kept thinking, oh, he's going to get back out there. He's going to get back out there. And he really, he does that one shift.

And I think he even wins a face off. But he's clearly laboring. And, you know, then then he goes to that shot of him and Pierre and he's miserable. And, yeah. So like that, you know, we do write this. Okay, this is Sidney Crosby's first cup and this is it. But really, this was, you know, in terms of who played the best, I mean, this is Max Talbot's moment.

This is Malkin being dominant. This is Mark Andre Fleury being clutch. And it was truly, it was, you know, the guys around him that got it there. Okay. So let's, that's a good segue then. What the biggest heat check performance? The biggest heat check. I'll let you start.

So I had, and then we're going like the player, this is, we're going to use this as like the player who was most start up. unsung, I think, where you wouldn't expect, like, I'm not going to go, like, if Gany Malkin, he had a good game. He had a great series, but you expect that for him of Ganyi Malkin. It's funny enough because my two candidates here for it are his two linemates. You know, Ruslan Fedatenko, if you go back in 2003-4 when Tampa Bay Lightning won their cup, he tied Brad Richards with 12 goals for the team lead during that run.

And in this series, he's got another seven power playoff goals for the Penguins, playing with Malkin, but it's got to be Talbot here, right? The two goals. He's playing like, he plays 1947 in game six, 1908 in game seven. Like he's like legitimately being used as a top line guy. They have him out there at the end of the game with Jordan Stahl trying to kill the clock. Like he's doing everything. The two goals, like the first one is sort of a fluky bounce where Brad Stewart coughs up the puck to our point of defensemen not being able to move it during this era and it goes off Malkin and right to Talbot in. he kind of squeezes it under osgood and similarly i think osgood was like kind of trying to stand up

and kick the puck away and it just went through his legs and then uh on the second one it's just a beautiful shot coming down on a two-on-one after brad stewart pinch so um he had eight goals that postseason it's funny because he scored more than 13 once in his career and he didn't even top eight goals in seven of his 11 in hl season so this was just like a magical playoff run for max talbot so that yeah so for sure he's he's he's the heat check he he's he you know I didn't realize he had had eight goals until they showed it on the screen like I was like I remember max how being great in this game and having a good series but he was like you said like he's playing with with Malk and he was he was good that whole playoffs like this was this was

this was the beginning of the kind of max Talbot love affair with everybody and and so he wins it I would say if I'm giving a runner up um in terms of if we're going to eliminate the big stars it's jordan stall I thought jordan stall was great in this game and to the point where I was like, how do they trade him? Like, you know, I understood why in the economics of it, and he got that $10 million a year deal, and they probably couldn't afford all three of those centers. But I'm watching him going, boy, there had to be a way to make this work long term because he was so good.

And what a mismatch opportunity that was when you can roll him out on your third line. And he was dominant at times in this game, I thought. Well, the biggest he check performance isn't Max Talbot in this game. It's the Max Talbot series of commercials for. and L. Motors, where he's, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's calling himself a superstar and chik, chik, oh my gosh. And then, uh, and then, uh, it's, it's the most like unintentional comedy ever where he's like him, Kobe Armstrong, Sergey Gontzarin, and it's like the stiffest acting I've ever seen in my life. It's so, so good. Like the legend of Max Tobit, so he does

this, he has this moment and then, you know, he's, he's just, he's the star of the 24-7, you know, Winter Classic HBO series with, you know, the Santa's helper. Like,

he was just so funny, like, watching Max. Like, this, you got a set to his personality. There's even,

there was even a point where I think they had a miced up in this game or at something where you got to see him, like, he's clearly enjoying himself.

And, like, a guy that, that here's this biggest game of his life, and he's just out there, like, living his best life.

And so that's, he wins this category for me. Okay, most unanswerable question. So you, you were talking, with Jordan Stahl, he was actually really good in this series. Like he had a game in Pittsburgh where he has this short-handed goal where he puts,

he like puts together this one highlight where it would be everything you need to see to think that he's going to be the next big thing in the league, right? Like he's got this like defensive ability. He wins this race for the puck. Then he uses his body to box out the defender and he finishes it off over the goalie's shoulder. And you're just like, oh my God. Like he just was able to do all of this in one sequence.

Like, this guy's amazing and he's still, whatever, 20, 21 years old at this point. My unanswerable question is, what if the penguins had not drafted Jordan Stahl? Oh. And said, I thought you were going to say, what if they didn't trade him? So what if they hadn't drafted him? What does his draft year look? I have to go back and look now. So they took him over Jonathan Taves and Nicholas Baxter.

And, you know, it wasn't a reach because there was a lot of, I was trying to find definitive pre-draft rankings. I couldn't find Bob McKenzie's. Some had Taves at second behind Eric Johnson. others had Jordan Stahl at second and then Tave's third and then I think like Baxter was a bit down. It was kind of tough because he was obviously in the European rankings and Kessel was next to the North American ones.

But there was an interview where Jonathan Taves basically like professes that he thought he was going to the penguins at second overall. And, you know, he was obviously happy to go to Chicago and he's had an amazing career for himself. And you get into this kind of like hindsight thing of like would Taves or Baxter had been the same player if they were playing third line center? behind Malkin and Crosby, behind under shadows, less minutes, playing with worse players.

There's certainly an argument to be made for that. You know, Stahl has had a really good productive career. He's never, I think, reached the heights that we thought he could just because I think he ultimately lacks that kind of finishing ability or pure highest and offensive touch to be an elite offensive player. He's amazing defensively, and he shows that in this series. And that's why he was perfect in this role for the Penguins.

And I think, you know, trading him six years. later is disappointing when you do that for a second overall pick. But they got back the eighth pick. Now they didn't get anything for it because they drafted Derek Pugliot and he never wound up panning out for them. But you know, you get Sutter,

you get Duman, who obviously turned out as the best player for them there. And you don't have to pay him that $60 million deal that the Keynes wound up paying him to and he's still playing under. So it kind of wound up working out, but it is one of those great kind of crossroad moments to go to go back and wonder, like what if you just toss Taves or Baxter

into this Penguins team? Or, I mean, Phil Kessel was in that conversation. is the best player in that draft. So, I mean, obviously we got to see that happened later on. But what if Phil Kessel's on that team for the whole dynasty in rather than later on in his career. And he doesn't go to, because now you're, if they take Kessel and we're going to assume he flourishes with Malkin

and Krosby on the wing there. Now you remove that trade with Toronto in Boston, which, you know, turns Toronto upside down and changes their rebuild. They probably don't get Austin Matthews. So, I mean, we're changing a lot of history there. So I love that idea of if that draft looked different. My unanswerable question was, what if the Red Wings win and Marion Hosa stays in Detroit that year? And now, so if they win and they all figure out a way to make it work and he's happy and wants to stay,

now it doesn't go to Chicago who wins three cups with Marion Hosa playing a major role in those Stanley Cups. you know, how do the next 5, 6, 7, 10 years look differently if Marian Hosa stays? So the cap that season was 56.7 million and making a big deal about how it rose like 6 million or something from the previous year. So Hosa signs this one year 7.45 million. He's basically like a gun for hire, right? He's trying to win a cup. But he was also maximizing his earnings.

He signs that 12 years, $63 million deal the following summer with Chicago and ultimately winds up winning. But it also. Also, I don't know what category to put it in, but like a player of his caliber signing this type of a one-year deal is also so fascinating to me. We don't really see it, especially with, and maybe going back and reflecting on this series with friends and with injuries and how sort of how brutal the sport can be. I can see why players would be unwilling to do that and would want to prioritize financial security. But yeah, just the idea of a player signing that kind of one-year deal where he makes a ton of money in that one year and tries to win a cup. and then go somewhere else.

Like, I'd love to see more of that. And it wasn't even like he max, like sometimes you say, okay, I'm going to do a one year deal and maybe get a little bit more money. He left money on the table.

Like, I remember those negotiations. His agent Rich Winter tells a great story where he calls Ken Holland and Ken's like pumping gas. And it's like, hey, would you do this at this number?

And I think at the time, I forget what Nick Lidstrom was making, but there was kind of basically a Nick Lidstrom cap with the Red Wings. And it was, and Marion was like, well, I don't want to,

you know, I don't want to come in. and make more than that. So, like, took a discount essentially at a one-year deal to go play in Detroit. Now, they, now, you know, we all sit there and go, okay, he was trying to pick a Stanley Cup winner. Marion would argue, like, yes, he wanted to play for a winner. But there was also, this is a guy that came up, you know, with Ottawa, went to Atlanta on some not necessarily great teams.

Yep. Had that run in Pittsburgh. And he, like, there was part of him, he says, you know, he wanted to learn from guys like Lidstrom and all these veterans. He had never been part of that culture in his career of this historically great team and to learn how to win. And then, you know, in theory, the Blackhawks were the benefactor there. Well, tying that into it, another question is, what if Datzuk doesn't miss the first four games here?

I mean, he makes his impact felt immediately in game five with two assists and he's just dominant. You know, he was fourth in scoring this year. It was the second of three straight Selkees. The Red Wings were like just unheard of good with him on the. the ice at 5-1-5, and with him and Hosa playing at 5-15 together this year, they had a 38 to 14 goal differential. So just like the idea of those two guys playing together and completely terrorizing opponents and just never giving them the puck, like obviously looks entirely differently in this series.

And yeah, I would have liked to see more of that. All right, how about this? So I looked it up because I mentioned it earlier. So Malkin draws an instigator penalty in the final 19 seconds of game two. so should have been suspended, right, for the next game, but the NHL obviously has flexibility, and they don't suspend them. So I wonder how things look differently

if Malkin is actually forced to sit that game out. Okay, here's my final one, and we can move on to a next topic after this. I just want you to mull it over for the future. Okay. In our analysis of like pre-drafts and prospects and looking for tools, you know, in NBA, a big buzz term is wingspan.

Right. Why don't we make a bigger deal of that in NHL? circles. Like you watch what Colton Pereko did in the 2019-Sat in the Cup. You watch in this series, like what Malkin and Jordan Stahl are doing in terms of just like, and even Marian Hosa, for example, like what they're doing to the opposition in terms of just limiting their time and space and making it difficult for them. We, we factor all of these things like speed, work ethic, size for some reason, more so than just, I guess it's kind of like correlated with being taller. You have probably longer arms and more reach. Yeah. I mean, Colton Prico is gigantic.

It feels like we should be prioritizing wing span more or just as like a pure skill than we do in NHL circles. Yeah, like just reach, right? Like how much ground can this player cover? I feel like you just wanted to get that off your chest. Like, I don't know how that does it. I think that was not an unanswerable question. All right. Most of that guy, like just watching this game being like, oh, my God, that guy.

It's got to be, for me, it's Tyler Kennedy. Oh, God, yeah, yeah. In the deep recesses of the internet. There were like wars about him where like, how good was he? He was this analytics darling, great underlying numbers, huge shot rates. Wasn't he at the time? I don't remember that. There were like Wins Above Replacement models that had him as the best player on the Penguins.

And people would freak out about it. And it was like classic bottom six winger. People are having these crazy online debates on forums about them. But man, this is a nod to all of my nerds listening to this podcast. But Tyler Kennedy watching this was like, oh, yeah, there's, there's Tyler Kennedy. that guy that's a that's a great one um i mean there's so many in this game go ahead let me because yeah i wasn't prepared for this one i you know there was just names i'd forgotten like brett lebda you know out there you're going i mean rouslan fedetenko i mean even rousand venetco yeah oh my gosh and in like

you know um you know peter sacora has you know plays in this game and and i like i'd even forgotten. For some reason, I had had Kirk Malpy and Chris Draper attached to another time, right? Like, I didn't, you know, Chris Draper only plays seven or eight minutes in this game, but you know, and same with Kirk Malpe, but you do notice them and you're like, oh yeah, yeah,

there was still a piece of the grindland left in this and still kind of making an impact. Twitter take, you wish you had in the moment. Twitter take, I wish I had in the moment. Yeah, I want to hear yours. Don't take, and this is one I've been doing a lot lately, but don't take playoffs as for granted regardless of promising the future looks.

So I think if, you know, if you were like, oh man, this Penguins team like Crosby Malkin, they're going to win the next seven cups. Yeah. Well, you know, they lose in the second round to the halves next year, surprisingly. Then Crosby starts having injury concerns. His first concussions crop up. They have two straight first round exits. They don't win a single conference final game for six years.

Obviously, they win their back-to-backs in 15, 16 and 16-17. So we look at it differently. And it's obviously an overwhelming success for this run with those two guys. but for a while there it looked like this might be their only cup. Yeah, that's a great one. And so one of the things I did a story in November on Sidney Crosby and just we were doing a lot of end of decade stuff. And it was just a look at his decade. And I talked to Max Talbot for that.

And he said after this series, there was a time, I think it was him Malkin and Sid or a couple of teammates were just, they're on vacation at a pool in Mexico. And they're all just talking about how many cups they were going to win. right like he just had this he's like we just thought we were going to win four or five cups right you win you go to the cup final you lose you then you break through and you win you're still really really young as a core and they thought it i think we all thought it we're like okay this is this is it and um that would have been a great take like enjoy this penguins fans you don't know don't take it for granted and you know the flip side would be hey a great take would be like we might this might we might be watching the end of an arrow with the red wings right yeah

It would have been like, wow, we need more defensemen who can pass the puck. Right, right, right. Hey, let's work in some mobility on the D. Yeah. Okay, so the final one. And we're not going to do apex slash peak mountain because I don't think anyone involved in this game was necessarily at their apex. Oh, I disagree.

Really? Who do you have? It's Max Talbot. Max, like, this is Max Talbot's apex mountain game. Right. Yeah. I just meant in terms of like the stars. Yeah, of course, Max Talbot.

Yeah. So, like, if I'm, like, who is at their peak power? You could argue, like, Mark Andre Fleur. It's funny because he was better in the postseason the year before, but just in terms of, like, game 6-7, like it's probably what he'll go down remembered for, right? Trondson might be at his peak in this moment. Well, Datzuk probably was.

He wasn't in this series because he missed his first four games, but, like, that 07-09 range where, like, it felt like he maximized his defensive abilities with a Selke, but also, like, he was, like, a top five score in the league as well. Yeah. I would say Dan Bilesma. Or Mike Babcock, you could argue. No, I would say Apex for Mike is the Olympics.

So Malkin, 2011-12 was probably his best individual regular season. But this two-year run he had was just like insane, right? So 0-7-08, 102 games, 57 goals, 128 points, including regular season and playoffs. The following year during this cup run, 106 games, 49 goals, 149 points. He wins the Art Ross. he wins the Kahn Smythe. He is the best player in this series. He is so good.

I mean, we talk about Fetitanko and Talbot. Like, he could have had 20 assists in this series. Like, there were so many times he just served the puck up to them on a silver platter for a scoring chance. It was just insane to watch them play. Jordan Stahl? You could argue this is a big. Probably. Yeah.

Well, a lot of these guys were talking about it's like, oh, they're early 20s. It's like, hmm, yeah, maybe this is when guys peak. Possibly. All right, not bad for a category we're not going to do. All right. Last one. Well, who won the game? I think it's got to be a Veni Malga, right?

So we debated, I mean, Talbot, again, could win every category. I think Mark Andre Fleury wins a game. Or Talbot or Flurry. Okay, but in the- Flurry makes one of the greatest saves you'll ever see in the final moments. And he kept the team in it for the first half. Like, from a big picture perspective, Malkin hilariously does not get named as one of the 100 best players in NHL history. You go back and watch this.

He's the best player in a series with Sydney Crosby, Henrik Zetterberg, Pavel Datsu, Kumary and Hosa, Nicholas Lidsstrom, all still not necessarily at their prime, but close enough to it that it's like an argument. And he's clearly the best most physically dominant player in that in that series. All right. Well, you said the game, not serious. Yeah, yeah, I just meant from a big picture perspective, yeah. I would still argue in this game, it's got to be Talbot or Flurry. All right, Craig. We're going to put a pin in this.

I think we covered this game justice. I think we covered it all. So go check out the article we talked about that Craig wrote if you want to get more physical, visible anecdotes. Hopefully you enjoy this. We'll do many more of these, Craig. Thanks for doing this. Do you want to plug some stuff quickly before we get out of here? No, well, I would just definitely see if you enjoyed this.

this, well, no, but yes. Do the, the athletic has a 90-day free trial. So really low entry, Barry, if you're not a subscriber to the athletics. So go check out the story. Go to the athletic.com and check that out. Check out my podcast, the full 60, that I just stole the idea, Dimitri's format and did it myself. Nice.

I wish I would call it like PDO something to even be more brazen about it. P.D.O. 60, yeah. of the PDO 60. And that's it. All right. Actually, no, one more. Might as well go buy the book behind the bench because I watched this game with Dan Baosma.

That's one of the chapters. And it was fascinating to watch it from his perspective. And go back in the archives of the Piedocast and listen to me and Craig deep dive that book. That was one of my favorite. Oh, yeah. That's right. Definitely do that. This is a blast, man.

I'm glad we got to talk about hockey again. Hopefully we gave people a nice little reprieve from the real world. And it was good to have you back on the show. So thanks, man. It's good to check in. hopefully we'll be able to chat soon. It was awesome. Thanks for having me, Dimitri. Before we get out of here, I just wanted to thank everyone for listening to today's episode of the Hockey P.D.O. Hopefully you enjoyed the walkdown memory lane with Craig and I as much as we did. It was a blast to

go back and watch this game and put together this podcast. And I'm hoping that we're going to do many more of these. I think we're going to have some time here in our hands to fill. And since there's no current games going on, I figured this would be the best way to kind of make do with what we have and and fill in as an alternative. So hopefully you guys enjoy the format. I want this to be a collaborative thing. So please, if you have any ideas for future categories or games you'd like to see, we're taking suggestions and we're going to try to get to it all.

And I appreciate the patience while we iron out the format. It was the first time we're doing something like this. And I think as we go along, we'll get better and better in sort of the transitions and the actual categories themselves will get neater and tighter. And so I'm looking forward to that. And one final thing, if you want to show the podcast some love and help support us during this time, that would really go a long way and we really appreciate it for myself. Go leave a rating, review, share the show on social media, tell people about it.

If you think there's someone out there in your life that needs some entertainment, enjoys hockey, but it doesn't listen to a show yet. We'd love to get some new listeners And we're going to be keep doing the show At least once a week for this entire break So looking forward to coming back and doing Lees Bruins, 2013, game 7. It was 4-1 as it's known

With Chris Johnson, he was at the game cover. And so we're really going to dive into that And have a blast with that. And then we've got a bunch of other games planned for the features. So look out for that. So yeah, go rate, review, subscribe, download, listen, tell people about it. and keep checking back in.

And in the meantime, I highly recommend going on YouTube and watching this game. It wasn't particularly entertaining in terms of being the best played game, as Craig and I talked about. But just diving back into that atmosphere and reliving it all over again was such a good distraction for what's going on right now. And I think we could all use that. So hopefully the game can provide that distraction.

Hopefully this podcast was a nice little reprieve from the sad reality we're currently living in. hopefully all of you out there are staying safe, washing your hands, not taking needless risks and going out and endangering yourself and those around you. And we're going to get through this. And there's going to be a lot more new hockey on the horizon. But for now, we're going to go back and enjoy the classics. So thanks for listening and we'll be back next week. The hockey PDOCAST with Dim Philipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockey PDOCast.