The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 349: Quarantine Rewatch, Bruins vs. Leafs 2013

Episode Date: March 30, 2020

Chris Johnston helps deep dive the 2013 first round series between the Bruins and Leafs that's still remembered to this day as "It was 4-1". The categories we cover include:4:30 Hockey in 201314:30 What aged the best27:30 Bruins beating aging curves and their non-replicable formula35:00 What aged the worst41:00 The Leafs roster decision making in this era59:30 Revisiting the Tyler Seguin trade1:06:15 TSN Turning Point1:10:00 Biggest heat check performance1:12:00 Most unanswerable questions1:15:00 Twitter take you wish you had in the moment1:20:20 Who won the game?Stay safe, get comfortable at home, kick back with a beverage of your choice, and watch along with us here. You can also go back into the archives and catch up on the previous Quarantine Rewatchables we've done:Penguins vs. Red Wings 2009See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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and joining me for the second installment of the quarantine rewatchables here on the Hockey PDO cast. It's my good friend, Chris Johnston. Chris, what's going on, man? I'm doing well, Dimitri. Thanks for giving me a chance to go down memory lane. I don't usually watch any games back that I was at or that I covered, and this was kind of interesting for me to do. Yeah, it was fun. It's, I mean, we're going to do the Bruinsleafs 2013 game seven.

We're going to talk about the whole series. I thought it was a fun exercise to do. sort of poking at a wound, which I think still hasn't healed for Leafs fans, considering that they haven't really gotten any closure because of how 2018 and 2019 post seasons went for them. So they kind of just had to relive the horrors of this series. Beyond just sort of poke and fun at that, I think it's a really insightful or telling series because it was kind of this like crossroads of where we were at with hockey with the analytics movement. And it felt like, you know, this was such a fertile battleground for that because you had this Leafs team that they talked.

about on this broadcast led the league that season and hits block shots fights and they sort of of has randy carlyle like toughness were going to be in your face mentality overcoming the shot clock and then you had the bruin which were one of the best five-on-five teams in the league and everyone picked them to pretty handily win this series and so when you get into game seven and when you get to the leifs coming so close to winning this um i think there's a lot of kind of interesting uh subtext to parse and kind of nuggets to pull from and that's why i wanted to do it and you having been at this game and covered it, I thought you could provide some interesting behind-the-scenes stuff as well. So I think it's going to be a really fun exercise for us to do.

Yeah, it'll be good. One of, I think, five or six game sevens I've covered in Boston, it just seems like every series there, you know, there was one with Montreal, I think 2014, last year the Cup final. Obviously, the two more Leaf Series. I mean, it's a crazy place. They've had a lot of big games in that building. And as always, I just recommend the listeners before we start to go back and listen. to the first episode I did with Craig Custins. We did the 2009 Cup Final with the wings and the pens. And I highly recommend just, you know,

maybe Leafs fans might not want to go watch this game again. But whether it's this game or something else, I highly recommend just going on YouTube and immersing yourself in a full game. It feels really good. I know there's so much else going on in the world right now, but it feels like a nice little distraction and kind of therapeutic for myself.

I'm not sure how you felt about it. To just like rewatch a full game and hear familiar voices and see familiar faces and get back into that world. and, you know, it also means you're spending time at home, hopefully, and staying safe. So it's kind of a win-win. So whether it's this game or something else, I just, I highly recommend the listeners go back and watch some hockey these days. Yeah, and it's funny because, you know, right off the start, it started hitting me.

I mean, because you forget, if you're not thinking consciously, but how much the teams change, you know, we're watching the start of this game in the warm-up part, and there's like young Dougie Hamilton and Tyler Sagan and Yarmir Yager. And, you know, I just, I'd forgotten the exact makeups of the, you know, the warm up. the two teams at the moment. I mean, obviously we know some of the central characters, but there's a lot of little rewards there if you're a hockey nerd and going back and remembering who was on some of the fourth lines and stuff like that because it's hard to believe some of those guys were part of this game. Yeah, it's only been, it's been less than seven years now. And

it feels like there's certain things that like Zedin O'Chara kind of like physically looks the same. He doesn't like skate quite as well anymore. But, you know, him like Patrice Berseron, Like physically, if you watch them now compared to them, like, they haven't really aged that much. But then there's certain things in this game and we're going to get into what age the best and worse where it's like it feels like it's kind of this like time capsule from an entirely different era of hockey, even though it was only like six and a half or seven short years ago. Yeah, you had Colton-Nor dressing in a game seven. And you had some other players too.

Yeah, you had some other players that unfortunately had some things happen in their career. They didn't play many games after this, that were good players. I mean, I guess any moment in time in sports, because so much changes in such a short, relatively short amount of time, any time capsule, I'm sure you're going to find Demetri as you do more of these. It's just kind of interesting to walk down memory lane that way. So, okay, so let's get into the categories then, and we did this last time as well, and I think it kind of serves as a good template. So the first one is, where were you when? And I think mine's going to be a lot less interesting than yours, obviously. but I just think, you know, this entire season as a whole, not just this series, was, you know, most notably it starts with a work stoppage.

There's no hockey on until, I think the first day of the regular season is January 19th that season. And, you know, looking at it compared to now, obviously, it's under very different circumstances and there's so many bigger things going on in the world that makes an NHL CBA impasse look like small potatoes. those, but I've never personally experienced a work stoppage like this during a season. Like I'm used to the natural flow working in hockey now for the past five, six years, or whatever. You have the regular season. It ramps up towards the playoffs. Then you have the draft and free agency, and that's probably the most hectic part.

And then you have this nice little window there where everyone seems to log off. People go to their cottages. Everyone relaxes. And then we reconvene in the fall. And for it to just abruptly stop like this and there's no hockey on, I've never really experiences like this because I wasn't working full time. in the NHL during this 2012-13 season. I was still a university student.

I was still sort of part-timey at Canucks Army and really getting my feet or dipping my toes into the industry. But for yourself, I mean, what was it like covering this season just from like the work stoppage and, you know, I'm sure there were nuggets coming out here and there with meetings and progress and whatnot,

but there was also large periods where there was probably just nothing going on in the NHL. Yeah, it was a little unusual. And for me personally, I started this, what would have been the start of this season working for the Canadian press. It was early in my career, you know, for the newswire. And I was covering the lockout basically almost every day.

And, you know, standing on the sidewalks in New York for endless amounts of time, trying to find somewhere to charge your cell phone because we didn't really have an ability to work. And then all of a sudden, you know, during this time period, I actually took a job with Sportsnet that began, you know, once the lockout ended. And so everything moved pretty quick from December to January. that year when they finish the lockout, I switch jobs, and, you know, you launch into this season. And I think, you know, if we look at where we are now, you know, there's some reminders in this season about what things might look like when the current season that we're talking

about gets going again, or if it's next year, you know, some of the things are talking about doing because, you know, this game seven was held on May 13th of the first round. You know, it was a very late playoffs. Game six and seven in this series were played on back-to-back nights, which is not something you typically see. But, you know, if we get a playoffs at the end of this 2019-20 season on the other side of COVID-19, you know, we might see some of these types of things again, just because, you know, we haven't had a schedule compressed quite like this one since then. And we might, again, in the future.

So it was a really weird year, 48 games in, what, three months, I guess, starting mid-January or towards late January. You know, the Blackhawks, I remember, what, they went 25 in a row. or they went 25 games, I think, without losing in this season. You never knew really what to make of the teams, and the Leaves were one of those teams. They seemed to be a little bit better than they should be in terms of where they were in the standings.

There wasn't a lot expected of them. At that point in time, they had made the playoffs as an organization for a number of years. And it was just this strange season that culminated with this series, you know, from a Leifes Bruins perspective. and, you know, it just had a different feeling. And I think that we're going to encounter that again on the other side of the coronavirus here, no matter what it looks like.

I think it's going to feel weird to jump back into something after this much of a delay. Yeah, you're right. I mean, they basically jammed the 48 games from January 19th to April 28th, which is like a three-month window there. It led to really wonky results. And that's why you get a team like the Leafs here where I think maybe if you stretch it out over full 82 games eventually regression probably would have come back to bite them and they might not have even made the playoffs to begin with and it would have an entirely different story but in a 48 game

sample you have such wonky results and it's sort of everything's jammed in there and you're right the feeling that this game six seven was played back to back and during the game seven broadcaster talking about how I think the Bruins had some difficulties with like their their team flight and they couldn't even get into Boston on time after game six and so the Leafs were already in Boston. and waiting for them, but the Bruins got in late and they're playing that day. And it's, it's all of it. It was just kind of surreal to go back and live through. I think, you know, I was thinking about this and trying to get back in the headspace of where I was at this time of what was going on. I remember, it's funny enough now. I was doing a podcast semi-regularly with my good

friend Cam Shron, who now works for the Leafs. And I remember, yeah, I was working at Canucks Army. I think I had like a thousand followers on Twitter at the time. I remember it was a pretty different era where people like myself are just like trying to get into fights with people with more followers on Twitter to push the analytics movement and to kind of to get people to think about it more. And it's just, yeah, in these seven years, I guess a lot's transpired. And it's entirely different world we're living in when you just think about where hockey's at now. For sure.

And it's funny when you mentioned that Bruin story that when I flew down the morning at game seven, I came through the airport with them at the same time. I mean, what a strange idea that a team would be flying home the morning of the game seven, a team that, as you mentioned earlier, was meant to win that series and was clearly the better team. If you stack the lineups up on paper, when you watch what was happening on the ice, they dominated so much of that series, and yet they were in a position potentially to lose it with tough travel, not much rest between that big game seven. And you're right, it was totally different.

It's amazing. Good reminder, even if we try to think what's the next seven years going to bring in the sport, because, you know, you were pushing it, that analytics move. And I kind of remember it as, you know, again, earlier in my career, but an established media person, there's certainly some talk about it. But, you know, on the ground, it wasn't something to say that players are really being asked about quite yet. I think that came in the wake of this, you know, 2014, 2015. It became, you know, way more part of just the regular dial.

something GMs were commenting on and question coaches were getting. And now, you know, if we want to call that a war back then, I mean, that's not even a question. I mean, players routinely and teams talk about all the kinds of things that were being fought at that time, whether they mattered or not, or just accepted wisdom at this point in time. And, you know, that's all unfolded within this career of Zadano Char, Patrice Bergeron, and all the other guys. Yeah, and it's funny to think back that the Leafs were like the poster child of the anti-analytic movement at this time. and then you look at it now, and they're, I think,

considered to be the front runner in terms of having the most resources devoted to it, kind of either GM is obviously part of it. So it's funny how much that has changed as well. And one thing I didn't remember when thinking about this season again was, you know, because of that 48 game schedule, teams only played within their own conference.

And that was also kind of interesting to think about as well because I think at this point, you know, the penguins were really good this year. You know, I think the cap, I think the capital is kind of a weird scene. season, but the East felt like much flimsyro, whereas the West, you had the Blackhawks on that, on that terror you were talking about earlier, you had the Kings still who were defending champions. So I wonder how much of, you know, when you look at this playoff bracket for the East this

season, like the Bruins win this series, and then they just smashed through what the Rangers and the Penguins and the Penguins. Yeah, and I think the Penguins in that series had like three or four goals combined and Dukkarask just won all those games with shutouts. And so it's a really interesting game of sort of what if and trying to remember that. So that kind of leads us into what the lasting legacy of this game was. And I think it'll be remembered as it was for one game, obviously, and it still gets talked about to this day. I think about it as, as I mentioned earlier, sort of this two opposing forces here with how the Leafs were playing and sort of how they were this underdog compared to this Bruins team.

What do you think is the lasting legacy of this game? Well, for me, I kind of feel like both organizations are better off for the way it worked out, looking back, because it did propel, while this game combined with some of the decisions made immediately after it, propelled the Leafs towards the team and the franchise that they're trending on now, which I think anyone looking at it with a clear mind would say they're in a better position now, even though they've yet to win a playoff series, you know, including this one that they had a great chance to win. I kind of wonder a little bit what might have happened in Boston, you know, if they lost this game. This is probably what keeps GMs and coaches up at night when you think about hockey because there's just no world that these teams should have found themselves in this position in the third period of the game seven that they were, you know,

before things started to flip them back in Boston's favor, that a team as good as the Bruins almost lost to the Leafs team, you know, shouldn't happen, but, you know, weird stuff can go on, of course in this sport. And you know, you're right. The legacy will be that this specific instance has never happened in terms of a team blowing this kind of lead in a game seven. It was the first time and nearly a hundred-year history of the league at that point

that that had ever occurred. And, you know, I do think both organizations are better off for it, the least for the changes they made and the Bruins for the changes they weren't forced to make because they were able to win the game and go on and almost win another Stanley Cup. So what, in your opinion, age the best from rewatching? we can stretch it out to this series as well, not just necessarily being so focused on the game seven, but just going back and rewatching this and putting yourself in that situation. What age the best from the series?

The Bruins core for me, you know, it's kind of insane that these guys are still, you know, among the best teams in the league, you know, with these guys like Char and Bergeron playing such meaningful roles. You know, Brad Marchand in this 2013 game wasn't what he is today in terms of the role he had. I noticed when they had the six on five at the end of the game, he wasn't even among their six on the ice at that point in time. Obviously, if they were in a similar situation now, that wouldn't be the case. But just what the Bruins have been.

I mean, as an organization, they haven't always made some good decisions, and there's a couple obvious choices we can touch on from this game, but they've managed to keep finding away with this specific group that won a cup in 2011, nearly one in 2013, could have won a cup. again in 2019 last year getting to game seven against St. Louis. And I think that they've aged well. And, you know, you've hit on it a few times. I think analytics probably looks even better nowadays.

But certainly at that point in time, these were teams built in different ways. I mean, look, the Bruins cared about the physical stuff and the hits and all that, too. They had Sean Thornton dressed in the game. But, you know, clearly they prized what they still do really well at, and controlling the buck in the offensive zone, getting their cycle game going. creating opportunities out of not having to defend as much as the other team. And I think that we've seen way, way, way more teams go in their direction in those seven years. And whatever analytics argument was having before is over now.

Yeah, I think back to that, I think that 2011-12 Minnesota Wild were the first team, where I remember they were like the best team in the league in terms of point percentage and wins through the first half of the season, but they were like the worst shot share team, and they just had this ridiculous PDO, and I think it was like Josh Harding was having a remarkable season for them, where he had like a 950 save percentage or something, and everyone kept pointing to that,

and then in the second half of the season, they completely fell apart, they missed the playoffs. We had this Leafs team, and then in 2013-14, we had the Patrick Wall-Havs where they were a very polarizing team because I think they finished second in the West that season. Patrick Wall wins the Jack Adams, Semyon of Rlamov is right up there in top five and Vezna and hard voting.

And they lose in round one to Minnesota in a hard fought seven game series, but then they completely crater after that and it missed the playoffs, two straight seasons, fire Patrick Wall have this rebuild to get there where they are now. But it is with the Leafs as well, lumping them. I think those are sort of the three most highest leverage situations I can remember of teams that sort of outplayed their underlying numbers for an extended period of time. And everyone kept pointing to regression and waiting. for it to happen. And back then, I remember it was much more of a touchier subject. I think now when a

team comes out of the gate and does, has a mismatch like this between their underlying numbers and their wins, people point to small samples eyes, people point to inevitable regression. I think we're much more likely to sort of acknowledge that. I think back then, everyone was kind of much more myopically looking at just like a game-to-game sample and we weren't thinking about the big picture as much. So it was like a very hotly contested topic at the time, I remember. It was. And, you know, it just seems so obvious now. It's funny how I guess things become accepted wisdom because, you know, people really fought, you know, that the Leafs were fine. And then certainly Randy Carlisle, the coach, you know, I spent a lot of time with around in those years was, he really pushed back against this because there were some people, you know, James Murdo was a young member of the Leafs Media Court at that point. I remember he was writing some of this stuff again in the mainstream media. And so that, you know, something I was noted. and Randy, they didn't really like the idea that the shots mattered to the degree they did and stuff like that. But, you know, what I've always found about what we call analytics is a lot of it is

kind of common sense when you remove emotion from it, when you're just looking at, you know, what is the best way to try to attempt to win a game or to tilt the odds the most in your favor? It shouldn't be so complicated, but it was a battlefield back in 2013. Well, it's funny. I was actually looked this up. So the Leafs were, I think there's still, one of the bottom, like 10 or so, 5-1-5 shot-shared teams going back to 2007 that we have record of. And they made the playoffs, and they're the only team, well, there's two teams in the bottom 30 since 2007 to make the playoffs with that bad of a shot share. At 2010-11, Anaheim Ducks, 45.9% shot-shared 5-1-5, also coached by Randolph Robert Carlisle.

And they lost in round one to the Preds then as well. So it's a bit of a recurring theme here. This leaves team, there's like, I think there's a misconception in today's game where you can, you look at the buried shots Islanders, for example, where they clearly strategically don't have a great shot share overall, but they typically look much better in terms of chances. And they're sort of systematically trying to push the opposition and giving them and conceding shots from far out. With this Leafs team, there was no real sort of thing to point to as, oh, this,

this is what they're trying to do because they were just bad across the board in terms of chances, quality, quantity, so on and so forth. But I remember at the time, it was, um, it was just kind of talked about that the elites were playing this way on purpose because they were kind of like suckering the opposition into it and it didn't really matter. And so it's really funny to look back at it now because there's no real. I was looking to look for some sort of a, uh, a shining light or proof that that was the case, but it really wasn't. They were just kind of bad, but getting away with it. And it was a lot of hindsight where people were just like, like, oh, the Leafs are doing this on purpose.

And I guess they were. They couldn't do any better. Otherwise, I'm sure they would have tried. Well, and what was helping them is they had a guy like Phil Kessel, you know, in the early part of his prime who could help you make up for playing this way because he would only need one little bit of real estate, a little bit of an opening. And he could score, you know, on the rush off the wing, the way he so often did in his Leaf days.

You know, there was ways they could survive it. I mean, James Reimer had a great year. And, you know, I think one of the things Leaves Management was wrong on and probably put too much stock in is, you know, they, I think, to some degree, blamed Rimer for this 401 loss, as insane as that is, if you really look at, you know, what he did in that series and even the way that game played out.

But, you know, they got by with great goaltending and they had some decent scores. And that was enough in a 48 game season to so far outperform what would have been expected of them based on that shot share. So what I have that also aged the best, and I had the Bruins as well as you, I think the fact that they made the Cup finals in 2011 or 13, and then they had that two years sort of dip there where they missed the playoffs. They get David Pasternak late in the first round. They wind up drafting Charlie McAvoy, and they sort of with that group and now with some of these young contributors surrounding them and playing bigger roles, come back to make the Stanley Cup final last year.

at the pause due to the virus they were the number one team in the league and so that's sort of a shelf life is pretty remarkable when you look at some of the other teams that were dominant from this era whether it was the kings or the blackhawks who haven't been able to sort of reinvigorate their franchise and find that second breadth of fresh air with that current core like especially the blackhawks I feel like for the past two or three years now we've been having this same conversation with them where it's like well they have so much money committed to Taves, Cain, Keith, that they want to make it work with those guys while they still can. And the thought process has been there, but they haven't been able to actually execute it.

And I think because of the Bruin's success, it's sort of been, I think, misleading or misguided a bunch of teams where you look at them and it's very easy to talk yourself into that being a sort of replicable formula where we can quickly retool on the fly here and make it work. Whereas we see for a lot of teams, those half measures don't typically work. And in a lot of cases, you really have to fully embrace that rebuild and fully tear it down before you can get back to those heights again. Well, and it helps funding David Pashenac with a 25th overall pick or, you know, even Charlie McAvoy wasn't right at the top of the draft year they drafted him. I mean, you got to really hit on some players, I think, to do that retool. You're right.

And the truth is, you're more likely to play out probably what Chicago's had to do than what Boston's been able to do. you know, it also helps that the Bruins' aging curve hasn't hit them that hard. I mean, Charra's obviously not the player he once was, but he's into his 40s. And if they had a game 7 to play this spring, you can bet he would be playing pretty big minutes and that, at least 20. I mean, back in this day, he was playing 30-odd. But, you know, these guys, and even Bergeron has managed to get better at an age you don't necessarily expect to historically players to get better, certainly the way we see in the NHL now. And so, you know, there really are a pretty interesting special group that I don't think anybody should be saying, well, we'll just do what Boston did because I don't know that it's all that replicable, you know, easily to replicate.

You know, it's funny, you go back and look at this now. Charle was on the ice for 202 of 439 total minutes in this series. Wow. And no one else in this. So the next highest was Deanna Funoff at 177 and then Johnny Boychuk 156. So Charles was on the ice for pretty much 30 minutes a game. He averaged 229-31 for this entire postseason. Now there's some overtime games sprinkled in there as well.

So that kind of boosts those totals and artificially inflates them. But he plays 35-46 in this game seven. On the second half of a back-to-back. On the second of the half of back-to-back, I think at this point, he already must be in his mid-30s, right? Like mid-to-late 30s because he's 40 now. I think he'd be 35. I think he's 42 right now. Yeah, so it's funny because he's already, you know,

we're going to talk later about sort of apex malintner players who were at their peak in this game. I'd even consider Charra because you look back. He's probably already like four, five, six years away from his individual peak at this point in time. And he's still playing 35 minutes on a back-to-back in this game seven. And I think as the game on on, he really like doesn't leave the ice. There's a couple sprinkles here of Johnny Boychuk or of Matt Bartkowski randomly. But it's pretty much Charra. And he's so active too, right? Like he's pinching a ton he's getting into the play on the burseron tying goal with less than a minute left he's the net front and he's screening james rimer while burseron is taking the shot from the point he's just like all over

the place and he still shows sort of flashes of the way he's been able to be exposed most recently i think there's a couple plays throughout the series and even in this game where the leaps basically just dump the puck over his head and make him turn and retrieve the puck and skate backwards and and they go and sort of beat him with their speed out wide and recover it and kind of make him chase in the defensive zone. But his ability to still sort of dictate the play with his reach and his size and his physicality. And like the leads are trying to like throw Coltonor out there in this game to like rough it up with him a bit and try to maybe, you know, sucker him into a fight or get him off the ice any way they can.

And he doesn't really fall for any of those traps and he winds up just pretty much playing the entirety of this game. He does. And, you know, this game and it was one thing I might. you know, get into a bit when we talk about age the worst. But I found that there was still like some wrestling aspects to this game seven at points. Like there were still like maybe a bit more of a focus on the physical nature. And obviously the playoffs is more physical.

But, you know, there is that sort of comical like Cortnor, Coltonor getting shifts to try to knock Char off as though that's going to actually work in a meaningful way. And Char is even in the middle of all that physical stuff. I mean, he's, he was a beast in that game. and was still so good at 35. And think of all the players, Deon Finoff, I don't think he even got to 35. He had a career where he played a thousand NHL games and is out of the league before that age.

And still at that point, Charra's not quite mid-career, but still very, had a lot of runway left and was just a dominant force that I think was one of the main reasons that Boston was able to get through this one. Chara behind the play with Band Reimsdike,

throws him down. Greco-Roman wrestling. Yeah, he's got a history if it is dead with one in the Olympics. There was a little bit of it right there. Van Riemstike is not a small guy, but Charin is gigantic. Well, the Bruins are such a fascinating.

You mentioned this in terms of how they've sort of been able to undo the aging curves or sort of buck the trends. I think the Boston Bruins have probably the most out of any team over the past decade or so done the rest of the league, the biggest disservice, in terms of sort of throwing teams off of their scent or tricking teams into thinking they can replicate what they've done. Like if you look back to 2011, to 2010-11,

I think if the Canucks wind up winning that Stanley Cup final, this sort of movement of skill and what it takes to be successful in the NHL comes much more quickly, but instead because everyone thinks of them as sort of these big bad bruin that physically dominated the Canucks, you have teams kind of doubling down on that, and I think we see some of that with his leafs. team in 2012-13 in terms of how they're trying to play and how they're trying to win.

And then with, you mentioned Bergeron, Marcian, like, they have these guys that well into their late 20s and now early 30s have basically continued to get better and better offensively, playing bigger roles, scoring more goals, producing more offense without necessarily giving it back on the other end of the ice and still maintaining their defensive dominance. And I think that's how people typically think still in the NHL that players age. They think that, you know, you have to have sort of pay your dues and take baby steps in your early to mid-20s. And then when you're 27, 28 and you're hitting the UFA market, that's why teams pay for guys because they think that they're entering their prime from 28 to 32. And in fact,

it's probably not the case. In fact, guys have probably already passed their prime because it was in their early 20s and we just don't know it. But with guys like Marchand and Bergeron, they've done such a good job of continuing to get better and better into their early 30s, particularly with goal scoring that I think it sort of misleads people into thinking that's actually how your typical NHLer develops. Good point. And look, the lease management that watched this game went and signed David Clarkson at age 28 to a seven-year deal, you know, right after this.

They thought that that's what they needed. You know, the Bruins, you're right. There's just no way to copy what they've done. I don't think in a meaningful way. It's just it's not something that should be expected. and, you know, it's funny too. Like David Craichy was kind of the number one center at this point, at least the way it looked like he was being used in that game.

I didn't double check with the ice time. But they've, that the fact that it's the same team. I mean, to me that's probably what's aged the best, that they've managed to somehow keep that together because not many groups will be like that in today's game. Yeah. Yeah, Bergeron's goal scoring in particular stuck out to me where at this point of his career, he was like a low 20s goal scorer.

He constantly was like 22 goals a season or so this year. He scores only 10 goals in 43 games in the regular season. He scores 9 and 22 in this postseason. He scores the tying goal and the winning goal in this series. And then basically after this point, he just becomes a routine 30 plus goal scorer to the point where now the past three years on a per 82 game basis, he's been 38, 40, and 42 as he's like in his 30s. And it's just, it's just 80s.

aging like fine wine. It's just if there's nothing to really learn from that beyond the fact that he's just great. And whatever the Bruins are doing, they, they seem to have one up on the rest of the league. I think the other thing that age really well for me here was Yarmar Yager. He's 41 at this point. In this game seven in particular, because the line with Segan on it hadn't been scoring, Claude Julien goes to put Yager on with Marshaen and Bergeron. And They dominate in what you'd exactly expect. They're, like, cycling behind the net. The Leafs can't seem to get the puck whenever they're on the ice.

And I remember this season because it was that lockout, and so Yager was playing for his hometown team. And then he starts off with Dallas. He gets traded at the deadline. You're not sure what to expect. And he's a key contributor for them, and you think, okay, well, I'm glad we got this one final sort of Swan Song with him. He has during the Stanley Cup final against the Blackhawks,

they run that graphic where Krati says his favorite players, was Yarmar Yager and then Yarmory Yager says his favorite player is Yarmar Yager. And we're like, oh, like, I'm so glad we got to enjoy one more run with him. And then, like, he goes on and he has, what, four more really productive seasons than HL into his mid-40s with a couple different teams. And so obviously he's not in the league anymore now, but he's still doing his thing. He's still playing for his hometown team as one of their top scorers. And it's just remarkable to look back and think that he had another sort of couple chapters to his career even after this one. Yeah, and it's funny watching in this game, like it was a bit jarring visually

because he still looks so slow when he's controlling the puck and obviously Marshan really buzzes around and not the Bergeron's at the fleet of skater, but it looked like it was a mismatch, but it just worked and obviously they just do such a good job as all three of those guys

of protecting the puck and you know playing in the offensive zone which is what they did most of this game and you know I'm pretty sure Yager I don't have my computer in front of me. I don't know if he scored in his playoffs. I remember covering that Cup final, he was agonizing but not having a goal. And I don't think he ended up getting one. But I think he was still a pretty useful member of the team and making the money he was making

and what they had to give up to get him. I think it was like a mid-round draft pick at that deadline. It was a good pickup for them. The last, what age the best that I have here? And it's sort of a part A, part B, but it's the Bruins defensive system and Tukharask. You know, I think heading into this season there was, because obviously they'd made the decision to move away from Tim Thomas for various reasons and give the crease fully to Rask. And he finally starts playing the lion's share of the games. He's remarkable for, I think, this season and the next one where he wins the Vesna, he's right there near the top.

And then for like a four or five years stretch there, the Bruins are still really good defensively. I think they're top 10 in terms of team's eight percentage and goals against. But Rask's numbers are much more hovering around league average than they are a sort of star player. And then, you know, you look back to what he did last year. where he just turns it turns back the clock, has this dominant postseason. He stretches it into this year where I think if we don't play any more games, he'll probably win the Vesna for this season.

So I know I think Matt Porter reported recently that he could very well wind up walking away from the game after his next contract is done here in a couple of years, but it's pretty remarkable to think back to sort of that saga of him splitting the crease with Tim Thomas, the heights Tim Thomas had achieved, and then how Rask basically comes in and matches it for a couple of seasons there. Well, and incredibly, I still think that there's people in Boston that haven't warmed to them.

I don't mean in management per se, but it seems like the fan base still believes he can't win the big one or what have you, and that it persists even after last year's playoffs. You know, I know that game seven didn't go great for the Bruins, but I mean, he was phenomenal last fall, or last spring, rather, and, you know, you're right. I think he's had a tremendous career, and I've heard him hint a few times. You're right. Matt Porter had it reported, but I remember speaking to him at the NHL media tour before the 2019-20 season. And he was pretty clear, I think, that he sees the end at this point.

I don't think he's looking to stretch his career too long. But you're right. He's aged pretty well, you know, having the run he has in Boston. Do you have any other what age the best, or should we move on to what's age of the worst? I'm in a negative frame of mind, so I've got to let's get into the worst. Okay, I'll start us off. Phil Kessel Slander, right? It has to.

Like, at this point in time, there was still this conversation, obviously, about how much the lead paid to get him. His game, it felt like we'd always sort of highlight or nitpick or focus on the negatives in terms of his skating sometimes without the puck, his defensive play, his energy. You know, you've got the hot dog story a couple years after this, I think. And then he gets shipped out of town. and we think about it now, he's not only a two-time

cup winner, it certainly helps playing with Sidney Crosby and Vigney Malkin, but you can make the case that I think in that one season, right, it was the first cup run. If I had a ballot, I would have had him as my cons might pick that year, and so it's funny how much the consensus changed with him and sort of how far

he's come as both a player, but also someone that we sort of talk about. I think generally hockey Twitter and the internet now seems to really sort of just love Phil Kessel and everything he represents and all the jokes and everything about him. Whereas at this time, I felt like people still weren't in on the joke and were just kind of critical and quite frankly mean about him. And honestly, so much of it was tied to like the way he did interviews or how reluctantly he was to speak to the media. I mean, I do think this is one of those things that if it was today's, the exact same circumstances with a player like

this, I just don't think he would have got the amount of negative attention that Phil did, because people with powerful voices were putting a lot of stock into stuff like that, and I think, you know, that's happening way, way less and less. People are much savvier as fans. I think that the outside public has a better idea of what goes on with the media and players. It's, you know, it's far less sort of secretive that way. And you're right. It was, it was insane some of the heat that he got. And this was a big series for him. You know, I remember he scored. a big goal in game two for the Leafs to

even that series up one-one coming home and then he'd had so little success against Boston I mean that was a real thing he played 20 odd regular season games against him as a member of the Leafs since the trade at the time that this happened and only had three goals I believe

and so to come into a playoff series like this end up scoring four in those seven games including a couple ones that were game winners big goals that help the Leafs. I think that this was this was kind of a bit of a crossing point for him to put some of that nonsense behind him but um you know certainly anyone who was dogging on phil had uh had a poor concern and i kind of feel like the next argument we're eventually going to have involving kessel

is will he be a hall of fame or not because he's he's on the cusp of it i've you know i've looked at this with david amber my colleague at hockey night in kana and sports net who loves having these hypothetical arguments and and you know phil phil probably will go go from the guy having that hot dog story written about him, I think at one point to being a member of the Hockeal of Fame. Turns. Shoots up high. Reba!

Hit the point. It's got! Kessel on the Rekessel makes it three to one. Hanging around to right place, right on the edge of the crease. Bill Kessel has finally come out from that shadow that's been over him ever since he got traded to Toronto. I had that on my, not the teaser, but most unanswerable questions if he's going to be a hall of him.

You know, it's interesting because, like, he's going to smash. match pass, what, 400 plus goals, a thousand points, he's got the two cups. He's still only 32. I think the fact that his efficiency has declined and now playing on this Arizona team, just the compilation of those numbers might slow down. But at the same time, what he does have working for him is that sort of durability where he hasn't missed the game since 2010, I believe. And so if he can stay on the ice and he can kind of keep compiling those numbers similar to what Patrick Marlowe's done, for example, I think that would, the combination of the team success is going to be a really interesting debate.

Yeah, it is. And, you know, he's, he didn't miss a game from the time he first suited up for the Leafs. So he missed, I think, 12 games or something to start his first year in Toronto after off-season surgery, and he hasn't missed a game since. I mean, that's insane. He took all this heat while playing through every single game, too. I mean, it was, he's one of those guys.

And other athletes get put in this category. I think that people always want to focus on what he isn't, you know, more than what he is. And, you know, what he is was more than enough. certainly in his best years. So tying into that, do you remember back then, do you remember the Hope Spoke Twitter account? I do, yep. So he would transcribe all of the,

all the Leafs media on TSN and Sports Center, all the radio hits and everything. And I had that on my What Age the Worst, not that account, but just I remember at this time when we talk about this analytics debate, whether it was Dave Poulin or Claudeauzele or any number of media members going on

and sort of basically kind of towing that Leafs company line in terms of they were playing this way on purpose and analytics were stupid. And I remember them talking up like Mark Fraser, for example, he only plays a couple games in the series. But I remember it was a very divisive topic because he was like plus 18 this season. And everyone was like, you know, that type of style just leads to the on ice goal results. And this is why him and the Leafs are so good when he's out there. And then you look and it's like he has like a 107 PDO and it just everything seems to be going his way when he's on the ice. And then the next year, he's minus 15 and 42 games, and then he's basically out of the league the following season.

And so it's funny to sort of look back at that era now and tie that all together. And I remember part of why it was so divisive was because there was this sort of propaganda coming from the Leafs that that was actually the way hockey was supposed to be played. And I think for a lot of people that weren't sort of educated on the topic, they were just sort of going with that company line. And that's why it was so polarizing. Yeah. And this one that I had written down is a little bit similar, but I think maybe degrees different in terms of aging the worst was the way the Leaf's front office operated or thought.

And what's so interesting to me is that the following November after this series, so the start of the 13, 14th season, there's a conference every year on the Hall of Fame here, a sports media conference where lots of interesting speakers are always talking. It's called the Primetime Sports Media Conference. they've known as Salif's GM was part of that and he did a little scrum afterwards with reporters and he acknowledged that there was money in the team's budget at that point for analytics to be spent on analytics but they couldn't decide what to spend it on that they weren't convinced that they'd seen different presentations from different groups but that they weren't convinced anyone really

knew what they were talking about at that point in time and so you know even if it wasn't propaganda on purpose what was clear is that they truly didn't believe it mattered and to the point where literally in a public setting like that, they're acknowledging that they have money and their budget for it, that they're not spending because they don't know where to spend it. And so much of it comes through in the series, I mean, even watching this game seven, you know, I thought Mikhail Grabowski was one of the least better players.

I know he was on for a few goals. I think part of why what happens next, he gets bought out inexplicably in the off season after this game seven that says actually the last game he played for the Leafs. and I think he's minus 10 or something in the series, but if you look at all the underlying numbers, I mean, he was probably Toronto's most effective forward. He had really low zone starts.

He had one of the better shot shares on the team. He had, I think, 55 or 56% high-dangered chances when his lines out there. I mean, he was doing things that weren't resulting in the goals at that point in time, probably some bad luck. And so the management comes out of this series. They let his linemate, Clark MacArthur, walkway for no raise and free agents. and Clark had a good series too, and they buy Krabowski out. And it just, to me, it's totally indicative.

I think if you have a more process-driven front office, if you're looking at more than just the box card numbers, I don't think any reasonable person comes out of this game seven and makes those sort of decisions. And, you know, so that's why I think that the front office thinking at the time is probably what's aged really, really poorly. Well, okay, so on that line, I think in this particular game,

it was one of the few instances where the, Leafs actually had the right deployment or the right usage of their forward lines. And it's funny to look back at what had to happen for that to take place. Right, Tyler Bozak, I think, gets injured at some point in game five. And so he misses game six and seven. And that forces Randy Carlisle to basically promote Nazim Kadri to play with JVR and Kessel. And those three are just so impressive together watching this tape from game six and seven, both, where they're just, every time they're on the ice,

it feels like they're creating a chance or a goal. And Cadre's usage in particular, I know he was only, what, 22 or 23 at this point, but he's playing under 14 minutes a night for this series. He's playing less than guys like Jay McCleman. I think he's 10th on the Leafs in usage amongst forwards in this series. And that MacArthur-Culam and Grabowski line, for whatever reason, you look back at 2010-11,

they play like 800 minutes together, 43 to 24-goal differential 5-15, 2011-12, they were the Leafs' best line, undoubtedly. And then for whatever reason in this regular season, they only play like 58 minutes together. And they still have good numbers, but they had this, they were getting outscored 5 to 1 in that time.

And I think because of that, Randy Carlisle was like, this isn't working, so you went away from it. And he only starts going back to it later on in this series. They only wind up playing 24 minutes together, but have just crazy underlying numbers together. And it's kind of hard not to look back and think, this Leafs team was clearly very flawed and had a lot of spots throughout their lineup that

weren't being optimized. But if they just rolled with their actual best unit, which was that top six with those two lines together full time, like they could have made some serious noise. I know they were close to winning the series, but just from like a process perspective, you could do a lot worse than those six being your top six forwards. Well, and it's crazy in an alternate universe, let's say they find a way to squeak out this game. They keep rolling with that top six.

Maybe they have some of the. that success. Maybe they can beat the Rangers. We'll never know, of course, but I don't think it's crazy to at least imagine that possibility. And Clark McArthur was scratch at the start of this series. It was crazy that that was a decision that was made. I think

Fraser McLaren might have played over him at one point at the start of this series and he came into it and scored two or three goals and a couple big ones. So, you know, the coaching staff was not making great decisions. And, you know, even if you look at the

blue line. I mean, the Leaves Blue Line, they were overmatched in that area. I mean, I don't know. They were dealing, they were dealing down a card or two there to really be able to do this right. There was a lot of Ryan O'Burn. But there was a lot of Ryan O'Burn, and they played a lot of Deon Funf in this game, and maybe they did no other choice. But, you know, it just felt as though they weren't maybe running as efficiently as they might have to give themselves the best chance to get through this. So you brought this up in terms of, you brought it up earlier. I had as an unanswerable question, but let's get to it now because it's sort of an organic point of this discussion. I think a lot of people view this as sort of a silver lining for this game where

because the Leafs lost, it eventually leads to them going in a different direction and, you know, all the changes they make in their front office, bringing in Shanahan, bringing in Lou, bringing in Mike Babcock, Caldubus, and then eventually getting the young stars they have now in Matthews, Tavaris, Marner, and Elander, so on and so forth. But the reason why I don't know if that's necessarily true is because I think if anything, the fact that they came this close to being the Bruins without getting over the top sort of empowered them to double down on it because you just look at their decision making. I mean, this summer, what, they sign as Tyler Bozac to a five-year, $21 million deal.

They gave 29-year-old Dave Clarkson seven years, $36.75 million. And then they've also given... Trade for Dave Bowlin. They trade for Dave Boland, give three draftics, I believe, for him. He's an expiring deal. But they also, at this point in time, and yeah, right, they brought out Mikhail Grabowski one year into his five-year deal just to make that happen. But then they're also committing what they gives Dionnev a seven-year deal around this time.

I think that following December, they've already given five years to 29-year-old Joffrey Lupal. They've given four years to J.M. Lyles, who's already in his 30s. So I kind of push back on the idea that, It was a blessing in disguise because it eventually led to the changes. I think certainly if they had made a long playoff run, maybe it would be a different conversation. But I think if anything, though, the way the Leafs viewed it was, oh, we're so close

to being on the right track. We just need a little bit more for whatever to get there. And that led to a bunch of horrible decisions that summer. That's a fair argument. But I'm going back one more year because the next season after they made those decisions that summer, it was so evident that. they had screwed up, that they were not being run very well at the top, that it led to bringing in Shanahan, which led to completely gutting this front office and coaching staff and even the

scouting department at the time, and then rebuilding where they are now. And I guess what we can't know is if, you know, what they've got there anyway, if they, if they were lucked their way past Boston, no matter what happened in that, this 13 playoffs, you know, maybe 13, 14 would have been in a disaster either way. and they might not have done, you know, some of the things they did, and they would have maybe ended up in this place anyway. But, you know, I just feel like Dave Nones in particular and that front office would have had a degree of, I don't think the ownership would have been as likely to bring in Shanahan.

You know, if they went on a playoff run this year, you know, within another 12 months of that happening. I do think it would have bought him some internal currency that he didn't get to have. Instead, they're sort of viewed as, you know, you look at. like a flawed team, even if whether that's fair or not, if you blow a 4-1 lead in a game seven with 12 minutes to play. And, you know, I think that this started to undermine the way the front office was viewed. They made further decisions that summer. Many of them you've just highlighted that are indefensible. But by the time that you saw another year ago by, I think it was pretty clear you had to make changes in that front office. And, you know, that that brings around

the Shanahan era. The Leafs have probably gotten a bit fortunate with some of the things that have happen in terms of being able to bring on as many top-level young players as they did so quickly under Shanahan. But clearly his arrival in the organization represented a shift in philosophy, a shift towards analytics, towards skill, towards hiring a young Kyle Dubus and creating the path they're on now. So I just wonder if they won this game. I don't know if they would have got there so quickly. I really think that that would have given management more power to keep making these same mistakes and you know they might not end up with the team they are today that's fair yeah in terms of a line of decisions or sort of relics from a time capsule the least fourth line now in their

defense i think fraser mcclaren plays only one game in this series mike brown doesn't suit up at all but for this regular season just looking back at some of the stats it's it's truly remarkable i think we need a full ESPN 30 for 30 done about this colton or fraser mclaren mike brown line where Coldnor is leading the pack there with 623 per game, Ice Time, Fraser McLaren 5.09, Mike Brown, four minutes and 39 seconds per game. Those three combined that season for five goals, 38 fights, and 13 misconducts. Just amazing, just an all-time line. Right, and they mentioned on the broadcast, actually,

the Leif's led the league in fights that year. So, you know, that was part of that grit character block shots, spend the whole game in your own end kind of philosophy they were deploying at the time. Yeah, the Leafs had. eight fights this year before the break as a team. And those guys had 38 that season. Pretty remarkable. What age is the worst for me?

The Leif's core of players in their mid to late 20s here, we've sort of touched on it. But it is remarkable to look back at, and I guess it kind of just speaks to the attrition of the game. But, you know, whether it's Frans and Cody Frans and whether it's Clark MacArthur, whether it's Dionnev, Grabrovsky, Nikolai Kulam, and Joffrey Lupal, even Leo Comer, of who's still playing for the islanders. But at this time, all those guys were sort of in that mid to late 20s window.

And we just talked about how the Bruins, clearly a different caliber of players, but how gracefully they'd sort of age into their early 30s. And a lot of these guys were, by the time they were 32, they were just out of the league. You know, it was a very unfortunate sort of just genuinely sad stories like Clark MacArthur's post-concussion syndrome and stuff like that.

But it's for those guys to still be such effective players at that point, And then within like three or four windows, three or four years in a snap of a finger, just be out of the NHL entirely is pretty jarring to look back at now. Yeah, a lot of those guys unfortunately got paid not to play at the end of their career because they got contracts that they weren't able to be healthy enough to perform on. And, you know, some of that's the sport, but I think some of it's the guys that the Leafs were compiling and betting on with those contracts. And, you know, it's a shame because Geoffrey Lupal actually played some pretty good hockey

when he was healthy for the Leafs. He just wasn't healthy enough, and they gave him one more five-year deal at the end, which was the one, obviously, where Lou Lamarillo ended up telling him he was done. You know, basically put him to Robida Island, as it was called in Toronto, to finish out that deal. But you're right. It was a flawed core. You know, I think it was to a point, actually, where when Brett and Chanan took over, you know, one of the reasons that they traded Kessels because he was very tradable, but they were worried that something was left over from that court. core that that wasn't the hardest working group that they might have had a pension for the party lifestyle you know there's a lot of rumors around the team at that time off ice too so you know it

really didn't age well and and you're right even with better coaching and some better decisions around them i don't think it was going to be good enough to to consistently you know challenge a team like the bruns anyway yeah i mean less than i guess six plus years later seven of the 27 players the Leafs used that season are still in NHL and only 10 of the 30 that the Bruins used. So it's remarkable that, you know, it is such a sort of game of attrition where there's so few guys that, like, six or seven years isn't that long of a period of time. It's like, even when I was doing the 2009 show with Custins about the Red Wings and the penguins, there's still like a bunch of guys over a decade later that are still kicking

around the league at various spots, obviously at different stages of their career. but for so many of these guys to just be like completely out of the league is just it's just pretty crazy to think about um the other one that i've got here is the touch icing did you notice watching this game like how weird it was um to actually have to wait for the defenseman to physically touch the puck before the referees in a delayed manner blew the whistle like there thankfully there was no sort of closely contested potential looming injuries because of that in this game but it was kind of jarring for me to watch that because I've been so trained to as soon as the guy is passing a certain

point of the ice, just you're all of a sudden getting ready for the face off of the under other than ice. Very weird. And it's funny as you do more of these, if you're doing more old games, like, it's just funny how much the sport looks different in general. I mean, part of it was probably what the least we're doing deployment wise, but

they had a few power plays in this game and I'm like, what is that set up? Like, what are they even trying to accomplish, let alone what they're not accomplishing? And the rules change and the way I think the games coach has changed a fair bit and it shows up even seven years later just some of those things to your eye it doesn't make sense to see that because you've become used to what we see so often now in today's NHL well it's great you bet you mentioned that I actually had a note about how um

I think for the full season but especially in this series like the least were exclusively using a top pairing with Cody friends and and the unfunf on it right and um in lieu of you know I think Joffrey Lupel would have been an interesting player to have out there. Nazim Kadri as a shooter, as we've seen him develop later on in his career. Even Jake Gardner as a puck mover. You know, I know he's the defenseman, but Grabowski. Like, there's so many other interesting weapons and skill sets that they could have incorporated there. But I guess teams were just like, yeah, we're just using three forwards to defensemen.

And so it felt like most of their operation was centered around that big shot from Pernuf on the top of the point. But the interesting thing about that is like, I think, his first couple years in Calgary, he had like 39 power play goals or something in those three years, some crazy number. And then he had like 30 the rest of his career. And I think because of those first three seasons, it just stuck as like, he has a huge shot. He's a power play weapon. So we're just going to have him on the top unit and revolve around that. Similar to what we see teams doing with Shea Weber. And there was just no data to actually suggest that that was the right strategy, but they just kept going with it. And you're right, that was something that age the words is going back and thinking

about the Leafs powerplay now where they just got like the puck moving side to side between Marner and Matthews and it's just like it's just an entirely different sport being played out there. Well, and what they have now is some control generally even when it's not good you can sort of see what they're trying to do.

I mean in this game and I didn't watch the previous games in the series back but like they were brutal and they actually get a cheesy powerplay goal early in the game from Branson but you know it's not as a result of any sort of system or anything they were running. I mean, it just kind of a shit happens kind of goal. You know, they didn't get set up once that I could really see.

There was like one little time where Kessel was kind of working it off the half wall that I remember. But like power play wise, they were like they were lost in this game. And frankly, because the Bruins were a bit undisciplined early on in game seven, they could have probably capitalized on a couple of those power plays they had and maybe even been up five one instead of four one. And maybe this is a different kind of podcast. So Claude Julianne's tough of podcast. approach with young players. I have at what age the worst.

They're talking about how in, you know, in the previous years, they'd benched or scratched Tyler Sagan in big games in this series. Dougie Hamilton only plays three games. And I think he plays like 10 minutes in one of them. You know, and tying into that, the Sagan and Hamilton, obviously, they're ensuing trades a couple years apart. It was pretty crazy to look back at now. I think there was one point in the end of the second period, they have a power play.

and they actually have Sagan, Hamilton, Marsha, and Creachy and Brasheron out there as a five. And you're just like, oh my goodness. Like, can you imagine this just running a rough shot on the league for the next however many years? And it's like, nope, those guys do not play another single regular season game together again after this. Yeah, crazy.

And it's funny because it got so little, essentially, now that we have the benefit of hindsight out of those trades. I mean, how much better would the Bruins be just for those two players still today? You know, it's hard to argue that there's no way that that wouldn't have worked out better for them than even where they're at. And, you know, maybe one thing I'm thinking after watching a game like this seven years later from both sides is sometimes leaving is not overreacting to anything. Like leaving well enough alone. The Leafs probably would have been better the next season even without the changes they made that offseason. and the Bruins certainly long term as a franchise.

You know, they've squandered some pretty good players. You know, at least with Kessel, they turned them into those two guys with the drop picks they got. But it's amazing how many great players have been traded out of Boston in addition to the ones that we've been talking about how they've aged so well together. So the winner of this category is the Tyler Sagan trade, and I did a full deep dive on this in preparation for this show. So I'm going to give you some stats here just to sort of,

because everyone knows, like, oh, like, I was a great player. They traded them for a bunch of magic beans. But just think about it this way. So this regular season, Sagan, Marsha, and Bergeron is their de facto top line. Those guys play 435-1-5 minutes together. The Bruins are outscoring teams 26 to 4 in that time. They have a 64% shot share.

They're like, they're not the Bruins best line. They're the best line in NHL, arguably. And then you get to the series, Sagan has zero goals on 29 shots and I actually went back and watched parts of the other games in this series and particularly early in the series. He hits the post a couple of times. He's all around the net. In this game, in the overtime, they actually commentators mention how he's like the best player on the ice. He's constantly just around the puck and around the net creating stuff.

But he has zero goals on 29 shots for the series. He has one goal on 70 shots for the postseason. And then you watch that behind the B. YouTube video, which, and my unanswerable question is, how have the Bruins not taken that video down yet? It's just honestly the best video I think I've ever watched.

So you have this room, let me paint the picture of people, you have this room of Bruins executives. And basically the big theme there is they're waiting to hear from Nathan Horne's agent on what he's going to do. And so they hear that Nathan Horan's going to walk away and he's eventually going to sign in Columbus, right? And Peter Sherley breaks that to the room,

Jim Benning, like full on, looks like he's about to cry and starts face palming. You have people going like, oh, my God, how could this happen? And then Shrelli goes into the soliloquy talking about how now they need to find a player comparable to Nathan Horton because they're missing out on him. And so he goes, now we can, to do that, a player I've been shopping is Sagan. And like within a minute, he makes a trade with who we now know is Jim Nill. But it's just startling to think about that process and the fact that, he was right about to start a six-year deal, making less than $6 million per season,

that he didn't even get to start with the Bruins. So he signs that in September 2012. And in year one, he's already playing for the stars. He scores 37 goals that following year. He's basically had 33 or more in five of the six seasons with the stars. And so just looking back at that chain of events and the fact that they basically viewed one goal on 70 shots as a sign that he wasn't able to get it done. And one of the scouts, who I think is the Bruins assistant GMs,

God Bradley or like a special advisor to the GM. So far it goes to say if Sagan could only give us half of what Kane gives Chicago, we're winning the Cup. And they sort of hold that against Sagan as a reason why they need to move them. All of it is just truly baffling. And they're making that series of decisions probably within two weeks of losing in the cup final. Yeah.

I mean, instead of looking at it like Tyler Sagan will never have a run of luck like that again in any future playoffs and we still almost won the Cup without him being able to to produce offensively the way you'd expect them to. It's insane. And you're right. I guess probably the reason that video is still up is because all the important people in that video have basically since left the organization. So they're not embarrassing any current members of the front office.

And all of them went on to prominent positions with other teams. And some of them still hold prominent positions with other teams. I mean, Shirelli at one point even says, I've been looking at the Twitterverse. And then he says something about what's going on with a contract. So like he's aware of what's happening. He even references Twitter. It's right. I mean, yeah, it is, you can tell that I haven't spoken to any of those guys, but you can just tell from the way they're interacting that they, it's within two weeks of losing. It's still very raw to them.

And I think they like genuinely are upset about if Sagan could have given them a bit more offense. They genuinely feel like he cost them a cup and that's why they're trading them. Just like to trade a 21 year old at that time, who's already been nearly a 30 goal score is just, I mean, I'm out of words for it, but I felt like we really needed to talk about that here because in terms of what's age the worst, you really can't find anything that's age worse than that. No, and it's funny, I was thinking about Sagan's career. I mean, he hasn't really had a chance to go on much of a playoff run since that,

and so it's kind of strange how it's turned out. He's such a great player, but Dallas hasn't been able to really mount too much of a charge of the cup with him down there, but I'm certainly not blaming him. that. The Dougie Hamilton trade. So they keep him for a couple years and he actually starts playing quite a bit of minutes for them. But that in June 2015, they move him for 15, 45, and 52.

He signs a six-year deal with the flames. And the reason I bring that up is because the Bruins infamously have 13, 14, and 15. Bob McKenzie's draft rankings have Matt Barzala at 9 and Kyle Connor at 13. And

the Bruins still go off the board and take Zach Sennishin and Jacob's Borrell and Jake Debrusk, who's turned into a nice player for them. But it's funny because I think a lot of when we talk about this and sort of how each team has aged, people still go, oh, well, for as much better as the Leafs are, they still haven't gotten a better result than they got this season. And we can talk about all of these horrible decisions the Bruins made and people still go, well, they still made a cup final after and are one of the best teams in the league.

But there's just so many little intricacies and details of like squandered opportunities where the Bruins could conceivably have. In a very realistic world, like four other just young star forwards, they'd obviously have to find a way to pay them eventually. But it's just like just thinking about all of the machinations of what they could have had is really considering we have nothing else to do these days. Like in terms of fantasy booking, it's a really fun exercise. Well, and it's crazy because obviously no front office hits on every decision or anything

like that. But I mean, it's not hard to imagine a reality here where they're a lot better. set up than they even are currently. I mean, they're probably, I don't know, were they the best team in the league this year, 1920 or? Yeah, they had the best record, I think. Probably at anyone's top three, no matter how you're going to, you know, look at the top. And they could have all those guys still just on the cusp. I mean, you know, you'd be shuffling out, I guess,

the crachies and stuff to probably make that work financially. But, you know, Don Sweeney, I think has done a nice job. That was his first draft when he had 13, 14, and 15 back in 2015. And a lot of people doubted him after that. I think he's made a lot of good decisions since that time. But, you know, that one is going to age poorly, just like the Say Again and Hamilton deals. Okay.

That's enough negativity from us. Let's go to the defining moment or the turning point. Where does this game really flip the script for you? For me, it has to be the Horton goal to get them back to 4-2. Because, you know, even if you're, you're the Bruins and you know you're better in the other team or you believe you're better in the other team, if that game gets 4-1 much later in the third, it's just hard to imagine what kind of push they would have had or if some belief had to come off their bench.

But I think, you know, for me, them seeing him score that goal, I think with 12 minutes, give or take left in regulation, it just makes it feel doable or certainly 11 minutes, something like that. And, you know, I think that's where it comes back. Because from that point, point on, I mean, the Leafs, other than a Matt fratten breakaway that didn't even become a shot on net, the Leafs didn't really have much at all. And obviously, any team up 4-1 is going to go into some sort of defensive positioning. But, you know, Boston completely took over from that point on. And, you know, you can just see what happened. It's almost like you felt it happening before they even tied it. It just, you know, it just seemed so inevitable from that point. So I think

that getting out that one, that second goal in the game, putting a little doubt in the Leafs' mind and still having enough time left to make a good push and tie it up was probably where it turned. Yeah, so I think Horton scores with like 11 minutes or whatever left or just under 12 to make it 4-2. And the Leafs at that point, you can kind of tell they make the decision of like, let's just park the bus here and hold on for dear life. And I think they basically cross the center ice with possession like twice the rest of the way.

And they're two, Matt Fren has the one. clear breakaway with a couple minutes left, which he doesn't get a shot on net. But then he has one where, like, he recovers a loose puck and he's basically in alone against Rask, and he misses the net on that as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of Matt Fratt in this game. It's funny because I'd forgotten about the second chance. I remembered the breakaway, but that was something I noticed, too.

The set another, like, really good one, and he just kind of missed wide. What a weird thing. Yeah. And he's like, I mean, he gets traded a couple times after this, but he's another one and add him to that core where, like, he played a big role. role for the Leafs this season. I think he plays 17 minutes in this game and he's out of the league like a year and a half later. Do you have a serious knee injury, I think maybe? I think he might have been one of those guys that had an injury that probably contributed to his abrupt end of his career.

So the most rewatchable sequence for me, there isn't particularly one. I'd say from like two minutes left in regulation onwards, like when Claude Julian pulls Rask and the Bruins really start the press, I think maybe for Lee's fans. it's not the most rewatchable sequence, but I'd say like those two minutes and then obviously the first whatever, five plus in overtime. Like if you have a 10 minute window to watch,

it would be that because there's just, there's just so much action and just how aggressively the Bruins push is really interesting to look back at. It is. And it's funny. There's another one that didn't age well. I mean, the fact he only pulled to Rask with about two minutes to go down two is not something we'd see

probably any coach do nowadays. Great point. Um, is there anyone in this game with, like, the biggest heat check performance, which I typically would give to a player that was kind of an unsung hero? So in that game seven of Penguins, Red Wings, we gave it the max Talbot, scores the two goals, wins the series for them. In this one, like the Bruins top six and then, uh, Zadino-Chara basically do everything. Like, there's a lot of Matt Bartkowski. I think Sidenberg gets injured in this game, like one shift or two shifts in. So Bartkowski plays like 24 minutes or something. And he actually, he actually, creates quite a bit with his skating, but there isn't, like, it's kind of the names that you'd expect are the ones that really do the heavy lifting for the Bruins. Yeah, it's like one of those ones that the challenges sometimes, you know, the idea is that it's the unsung heroes at winning a game seven, like Talibah did no nine for the Penguins, but in this game, it was all the main characters, I thought that drove the bus that were making the key plays. You know,

Barkowski's probably your best one to nominate just because he was surprised to even play, scored the first goal, and, you know, he had to play. He had to play. place of minutes because they were on a short bench. Actually, Cody Franzen, I know it's in a losing effort, but he scores the two goals. He also makes some mistakes, but it's the perfect Cody Franzen game because at that time, he was such a divisive player as well, right? Because he couldn't really skate very well, kind of looked awkward on the ice. And so I think for a lot of people that just used purely the eye test, they didn't really

like him as a contributor, whereas his underlying numbers are always pretty good, so that Alex community defended him. And so I remember there were a lot of, there were a lot of Cody friends and debates online. And he actually has a pretty good game in this one, and he scores the two goals to make it one-one and two-one. But yeah, I guess that would be a heat check because clearly whenever you get two goals from a defenseman like that, you're not expecting it. He had a pretty good celebration after the second goal, too, so give him some bonus points there. Carthard. Nice feet out to the right point.

Prantzum on the grabies goal. Cody Branson will have his second goal of this game seven. And the Maple Leafs have a two to one lead. Talk about the guy with the magic touch. Cody Franson with this shot from the point. The puck flips up a little bit. Most unanswerable questions. So we've already done a bunch of them.

For me, an interesting one is, and we've kind of hinted at it, but how do the Bruins Jedi mind trick all of their players into taking less money? You know, like David Crachie right now is currently their highest paid player at 7.25. It'll be really fascinating to see what happens this offseason with Tori Krug and whether he falls in line as well and takes less money than he can probably get elsewhere to stay on this team. I'm not sure that he will, but...

I wouldn't bet on it. Yeah, I wouldn't bet on it either. But, I mean, if any organization could pull it off somehow, it would be them. And I think that was part of their logic behind trading their first to get. get rid of David Bacchus's contract as well. But you just look at all the money. And part of it is sort of smart decision-making where we're going to sign these guys to long-term deals and suppress the cap hit with Pastor Nack and Marchand and Bergeron.

But, yeah, when David Creach is your highest-paid player at $7 million and you have as good of a team as they do, like you're clearly doing something that's, whether it's culture, whether it's once you set that high bar, everyone else just falls in under it. I don't know what it is, but whatever they're doing, they're doing it well. Yeah. And what about this? How is Dano Chara doing it? I mean, that's probably the second part to what we were talking about earlier is, you know, at his age, how has it been possible he could still play and contribute?

You know, I don't know. I mean, we know about his freakish workouts. And obviously he's got a unique body size, you know, for an NHL player. But, you know, that for me is unanswerable. I would also love to know what Peter Shirelli and those guys on behind the B would have done if they lost. maybe it's only still just trading say again maybe that would have been their play but you know just wonder what other changes might happen if they went down on this game yeah i'm sure they would have done something if peter shirley's career is any uh any indication um was

luke shanifer jvr the original the trade is one for one should be it should be jvr so good in this series like it felt like uh the brulins really needed like two or three guys around the net corral. And even at times, they were like illegally in this game, just hooking and holding for dear life. And he was still just getting free and was just unstoppable physically in the series, really. Right. And he's a big guy. I mean, obviously he's not a physical player per se, but he's, he's hard to move and he's got such great hands around the net. It's funny. I was having a debate with one of my colleagues here who's doing a best 25 Leafs players the last 25 years. And he was, we were arguing about JVR spot. And I was like, man, that guy scored a ton of goals as a Leaf. Like,

you know, he could have stayed in Toronto other than they were, you know, facing the cap cruncher in now and still been, you know, I think a useful member of the team today. And you're right, in this series, he and Kessel both had pretty big series. And I think it helped getting Cadre up there. You know, he probably should have been there all along. But, you know, Cadry played pretty well in that game seven as well. I think that's it for Annswer, we've done a lot of them.

Is there any Twitter takes you wish you had in the moment in hindsight said after watching this game? This game isn't over yet, maybe when it went to 4-1 or something like that. Yeah, I thought actually the broadcasters did a pretty good job of they didn't, they didn't go too far. I mean, I watched the NBCSN broadcast. I didn't rewatch the CBC one, so I'm not sure what the more Canadian-centric take would have been, but certainly NBCSN didn't go too hard on like, you know, these miracle leaves are about

to pull something off. I mean, they, they were pretty, I thought, level-headed about. where the Bruins were at and that they still had a chance and, you know, they were pretty good on Boston's push there. But, you know, I was booking flights up in the press box at that point or booking hotels anyway in New York thinking that I was going to be covering our Leaves Rangers series next. And certainly I didn't at the time see that comeback coming, even though it makes sense seven years later, watching it on a Saturday morning in my apartment. It makes more sense watching the game that way. But at the time, I thought the Bruins were cooked. Yeah.

Yeah, I was on Twitter at this time. I mean, I was making a lot of things. I'm proud of myself that in hindsight I would have probably made as well, I think. Did you go look up what you were tweeting? No, I didn't, but I think, like, I remember people were pretty critical. Like, I'd be reading, like, Camperon's work, and he would constantly be hammering home how, you know, MacArthur, Cullerman, McArthur Culeman and Grabowski are their best line, how Bozac probably shouldn't be playing as much as he is on the top line with Kessel. And that's what we talked about, whereas I think as this series went along, and particularly in this game, that top six for the league, looks so good that it makes you wonder why it took for them so long to get there.

I think certainly would have been hammering home the point of like Tyler Zagan looks really good and they shouldn't be demoting him and he should be playing more. Certainly never in my wildest dreams would I have thought that they would trade him that summer. But I guess you could see sort of the frustration with how they were handling him. And the other one is the Leafs game plan where you really could tell after Horton makes it four or two that they had a mandate of like we're not crossing center ice. don't even, don't even try. Like the two times Fratton Godfrey are really the only times they ever create anything.

And it's no one's really been able to sort of find that curator score effects yet in hockey. I don't know if we ever will. It's kind of like a deeper psychological thing where it's human nature to try not to screw up as you hold on to that lead. But yeah, it's kind of tough to rewatch because they're so clearly so conservative. And it's funny, when Horton scores 4-2, the shift before that, the Berger Online has like a 90-second shift in the offensive zone. where they're just firing so many pucks on net and then the lease ice it and then where they get they kind of meekly clear it and get a change and then the Bruins come out with the Craachie line and Horton scores and that would have been a good take where it's like oh my

god when that lion really got cooking and that shift happened even though it was still 401 you could tell that the momentum was really swinging do you know what's funny and there's not a natural place in our conversation to put this but watching this game back with one thing that occurred to me that I thought is that I totally forgotten is the Leafs kind of had earned a lead at the point they had a lead like you know Boston had a really strong start to the game and

then they didn't have much until that third period and you know it's just interesting and as I mentioned earlier they were pretty undisciplined and took some penalties and put themselves in a spot to lose that game and that's that's the funny part if you're it was almost kinder to Toronto for me watching it again up to the

point where they built that lead because I thought it was reasonably justified but maybe not certainly 4-1, but I thought the Leafs had played a pretty decent road game to that point. And you just wonder, I guess maybe they had no gas left playing back to back or being so overmatched, but why they went into the shell they did. Because they were having some success, especially in the second period, with some of their speed and using those things. And they completely abandoned it the minute the Boston started to push. Yeah, yeah.

Well, I mean, it was a flawed team, but when they played their best players, they were good. I just think they had a misunderstanding of maybe who their best players were or what the most effective way to win was at that point. So I think that's kind of the issue. But yeah, I mean, when you had Franz and a Gardner out there with either those top two lines, like they were creating stuff and it was fun to watch. So I have Doc and Eddie's commentary corner here. Obviously, that team didn't call this game on NBC. It was Brian Engblum between the benches and the late Dave Strader on play-by-play.

I thought they did a really good job. I kind of enjoyed it actually. It was nice because for a lot of these big games, you go back, and especially if it's the NBC, it's the same old voices every single time. I enjoy the fact that Strader at some point. In the first period, he's calling him Franzen or like Franson or something. And then he basically says, well, I'd like to thank Twitter for correcting me. And then he basically starts calling Cody Franzen correctly in the second period onwards.

So I kind of like that sort of acknowledgement in the fact that he was on Twitter, seeing what people were saying during intermission. Brian Engelman at one point goes, Jake Gardner is a wild Mustang out there. He'll create for his own team. He'll create for his own team. And then he takes a little break. And David Strader lets it marinate.

And then he goes, and the opposition as well. And they both chuckle. And considering Gardner's reputation and what happens in this game, what happens in the other game sevens in Boston, it's a pretty bang on description. Well, and it goes without saying, I think, that that was Jake Garder's best ever game seven in Boston. Yeah, I thought he actually played pretty well in this one.

I obviously remember the last two a little more clearly, and he had some tough nights in those ones. Okay, so Apex Mountain, who was at their peak? I think a lot of the players were either young enough where they weren't there yet or were past it already. I would say the Bruin's second line here of Kreichi, Horton, and Luchich, to watch that back and sort of look back at the numbers, they were so good.

And I guess one of my unansweral questions, too, was, like, have we just woefully underrated Kreechie this entire time? Because he's just sort of lost in the shadows behind Bergeron and kind of doesn't do anything super flashy. But he's been around for so long and been so productive. And if you look back at those two cup runs in 2011 and 2013, they were their most effective players.

I think Crayche and this one has 26 points that postseason and no one else even has 20. They were just, they were remarkable to watch. And especially in this game and we kind of segues into who won the game, I think the best, and I can't believe I'm saying this, and people who listen to the PDO guys will not believe this. I think the best player on the ice in this entire game was Milan Luchich. They did last to get to him in one.

And this sets up a very interesting minute at 22 seconds. Milan Luchich again, the most dominant guy, just gets in good body position and refuses to give it up. I'm with you. And for me, he was my number one Apex guy. I mean, he was a beast. His skating was remarkable compared to what he is now, right? Getting in on the forecheck and forcing turnovers and, you know, it's not just the hits and obviously scores the one goal, the goal to get it back to four three.

But you could just, he looked like he was in command out there. even his body language, kind of the way he was with the team. This has to be right near the apex of his career. I don't think I should have looked a little closer. I don't think it got much better after this point in time. And certainly in this particular game, I think he's probably the number one reason

that they found a way to win that game seven. Yeah, I think he was 25 at this point, and his production does sort of progressively decrease from year to year after this. He plays a couple more areas. He goes to L.A. and then he signs a big contract with Edmonton. But he plays the biggest roles in both the 4-2 and the 4-3 goals.

You know, he scores the one in front of the net, and it's sort of what you'd expect from Luchitch 4-3, where they just can't box him out, and he's basically just physically manhandling people until he gets the rebound in scores. But on the 4-2 goal, it's sort of the most illustrative of what he was at this point, where he, like, transitions the puck into the zone,

takes it out wide around the net, and then flings a cross-ice pass to Horton, who taps it in. And it's just like, compared to what we've seen over the past couple years from him, as the game's gotten faster and he's physically gotten slower, it's tough to sort of reconcile those two things. I mean, it happens, obviously. He's in his 30s now, and with that body type, you're going to physically decline.

But, man, his skating was next level in this, and I think he was the best player for sure. Do you know what's funny? Total aside, but I actually went this year during the season, and I was at a game in Calgary in the stands. I got a couple good buddies out there and I went and visited them, we went to a game and every time he touched the puck,

I'm not joking, everyone was yelling, Looch. Like, he was really popular in Calgary this year and he's a really good guy. I find him easy to cheer for. I know he's been maligned. Obviously, he's wildly overpaid and he's, you know, at a point where he can't produce.

But it was cool to watch him and be reminded of what he was in his prime because, especially in the playoffs. I mean, he was the very definition of a power forward. he was and nathan horden as well i mean there were so many instances with that chemistry with those three where either horden or luchitch would always be around the net where they'd stick down in the right place just waiting for the puck to come to them and they would tap it in and you know horton in this postseason he's got 19 points in 22 games um and then he signs that summer we talked about how the bruin's front office was just distraught when he decided to leave

and as everyone knows he signs a seven year 37 million dollar deal plays 35 more games and is out of the league by his 20s by the time he's 28. And yeah, it's just watching this. Like, it's him and Luchich are just such fluid skaters for their size and they're so effective. But it is also the perfect sort of reminder of why Power Forward's age and how once you get into your late 20s, you should probably not be committing big money to them. So if any GM out there is rewatching this and formulating their offseason plans,

maybe this would be a good reminder to go back and watch this game and consider. or how you're spending your money moving forward. Yeah, and what a shame for Gordon. I mean, this wasn't the apex. This was kind of the final moments other than the press conference in Columbus and half a season there. And, you know, you're right.

That line I thought was awesome with Demand Grachi in this game. And I didn't remember that. I mean, Marshan was certainly not bad and we talked about earlier how they controlled the ice. But I was kind of struck by how he wasn't so much a part of the central part of the story quite at that point.

it didn't feel like to the degree these guys were in that game seven. No, particularly when it came to scoring, that line was their number one offensive line. So, yeah, it's kind of interesting to look back at. Anyways, CJ, I think that was it. Was there any other takeaways or things you had in your nose from watching this? I think we covered pretty much all of it. Yeah, but it really was fun. Like, it's cool to go back.

I mean, obviously, most people don't have the time. It would worry the time these days, I think. But right now we have the time. I mean, it's either this or the F1. Doc, I've been watching on Netflix, or I've got to get into that Tiger King at some point, but I might as well be watching some of this stuff, because it does actually give you some thoughts about, you know, what the decisions teams make. And, you know, this was such a huge moment for both of these teams, these organizations.

And, you know, a little bit of what could have been feeling if the least somehow get through that game. It would have been a miracle. Yeah. Hopefully the least fans that are still listening aren't too distrable. but I think things ultimately took a while. There was some rough patches for sure, but it wound up working itself out. I'm glad you mentioned that F1 doc.

That's actually been my favorite thing that I've discovered during this break here. I think maybe we should just quit the NHL and start covering F1 when the world resumes because the personalities on that show are just remarkable. It's insane. I mean, it makes me wonder how long it's going to be because inevitably I feel like all sports will go in this direction. I mean, fans want it, you know, but to where, where, how long will it take hockey to get to the point where we can see some of these conversations, you know, I'm thinking of, you know, you have Richardi, Richardo negotiating his contract in the middle of the season. You got him and his agent talking privately about it. Like, I think fans want to see that stuff.

And hockey so far is more conservative, but I hope in time we get more all-access type of content because I do think it helps sell the story of the games. no more than just who wins and who loses. Yeah, you've got the Red Bull guy, basically just telling the Renault guy, they're going in a different direction, and he's like sitting there in the press conference, just watching it happen and unfold before his very eyes. You've got the teammates just, like I can't tell if the rivalries are better between the different teams or between the teammates themselves at times. It's, if anyone hasn't watched it, I highly recommend it.

So that's our Netflix recommendation of the day. CJ, this was a blast. I'm glad we got to do this. Stay safe. Watch your hands. do everything you can to help out and hopefully there's going to be brighter times for us to talk about hockey with on the PDOCAS together. For sure. Be well,

Dimitri. And let me know what the next rewatchable game you're doing ahead of time so I can watch it before listening to the podcast. Absolutely. Love it, man. Take care. Bye. Bye. Hockey P.D.O.cast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dimm Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockey p.docast. You know,