The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 366: Rebuilding the Red Wings

Episode Date: October 27, 2020

Prashanth Iyer joins the show to deep dive the Detroit Red Wings rebuild. We discuss how they got to where they are, what they've been doing this offseason, and how they can improve their outlook moving forward. Topics include: 3:30 Last year's historically bad results 8:00 How did they get to this point? 12:00 The turning point for the franchise 18:00 The various forms of tanking 24:00 The agenda being their moves this offseason 29:00 Identifying who's part of the core 35:00 Finding creative ways to add assets 42:00 Injecting elite talent in future years 49:00 Allowing goalies to do the tanking for you Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Are you ready for the most ridiculous internet sports show you have ever seen? Welcome to React, home of the most outrageous and hilarious videos the web has to offer. So join me, Rocky Theos, and my co-host, Raiders Pro Bowl defensive end, Max Crosby, as we invite your favorite athletes, celebrities, influencers, entertainers in for an episode of games, laughs, and of course the funniest reactions to the wildest web clips out there. Catch React on YouTube, and that is React, R-E-A-X-X. Don't miss it. This podcast episode is brought to you by Coors Light.

These days, everything is go, go, go. It's nonstop hustle all the time. Work, friends, family, expect you to be on 24-7? Well, sometimes you just need to reach for a Coors Light because it's made to chill. Coors Light is cold-loggered, cold-filtered, and cold-packaged. It's as crisp and refreshing as the Colorado Rockies. It is literally made to chill. Coors Light is the one I choose when I need to unwind.

So when you want to hit reset, reach for the beer that's made to chill. Get Coors Light and the new look delivered straight to your door with Drizzly or Instacart. Celebrate responsibly. Coors Brewing Company, Golden Colorado. I'm Chenay Ogummike. I'm Lisa Leslie. And we're very excited to tell you about our new podcast with Blue Wire, front and center. Lisa and I are breaking down what's going on in our lives.

and the world and keeping it 100. We're also learning from amazing guests as well, like Emmanuel Acho. People that show love to me, I forever got their back. Vivica A. Fox. If the foundation isn't right, then the rest of it's going to go wrong from there. And more.

Subscribe to front and center today. Progressing to the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey Pediocast. With your host, Dimitri Fitt... Welcome to the HockeyPedioCast. My name is Dimitri Vilipovic, and joining us my good buddy, Sean Thier, Prashan, what's going on, man?

Not a whole lot. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me. This is an exciting time. We're talking about the Detroit Red Wings. It's a sense of it. I know. I mean, it's everybody's favorite topic, right?

Well, we were trading messages about this. I actually think it is a pretty interesting topic. It's definitely much more interesting than it was, say, if we were doing this during the last regular season. Like, since... Yeah, I mean, I'll definitely give you that. Since they stopped playing hockey, the Detroit Red Wings have gotten significantly more interesting. I mean, honestly, them stopping... hockey was probably the best thing for the fan base because I really do think the sludge of the

season was was just getting to them and basically being able to stop and move forward towards the draft and free agency. That's what really everyone was looking forward to. I think, you know, funnily enough, the first podcast I did with Max back, you know, when we were doing Wings for Breakfast in October, was talking, almost previewing the draft, you know, that was going to come the following season. So it's, it got a lot of the mess out of the way and we could focus on the good stuff. Well, we're going to focus on all that good stuff. So I'm going to tee us up here for the listeners. We're going to do a series here on the PDOCastus soft season now that we're kind of getting

into the depths of it and the most of the free agents have signed and most of the big moves that are going to happen have happened. And I thought this would be a good time, kind of useful exercise for us to devote some attention and some time on the PDAQaS of teams that we wouldn't have been talking about much otherwise. And so we're going to do this series called the Rebuildables. We're going to deep dive each of the seven teams that failed to qualify for the bubble playoffs and we're going to get into a how they got to this point be what they've been doing in the

meantime and see how they fix things moving forward and so um the natural starting point for us with this series was detroit wedd wings considering they were the worst team and they're probably the most um i guess kind of fertile ground in the sense that when you're as bad as they were and sort of have as much of a clean slate as they did moving forward it presents us with all sorts of opportunities to get creative and kind of explore different avenues and different paths and routes for improving the team moving forward. And certainly I think we both agree with Steve Iserman there. It actually gives some more viability to them actually doing that as opposed to with some other bad teams where you look at the ownership and you look at the management group in place and you're like, well,

there's probably a reason they're bad and they're probably going to stay that way moving forward. So at least in this case with the Red Wings, like the section of what they do moving forward, I think, is going to be a really fascinating for us to get into. Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, you know, as a Red Wings fan and someone who's watched the team for, you know, the better part of 20 plus years, you know, over the last decade, just like you were talking about, Demetri, you could see this coming for the wings. You know, you could see the way that they were trying to sustain this 25-year playoff

streak, the moves they were making, the free agents they were chasing. And really, you know, this moment was inevitable. but I think with Steve Eisenman at the helm and he's kind of come in, he's preached patience, he's preached the importance of building through the draft, not taking any shortcuts, not really trying to, you know, accelerate this rebuild faster than it really can happen. I think it's finally given the wings some hope that they'll be able to come out of this valley that they're in right now and it is quite a deep valley that they've been dug in, and that they'll be able to come out on the other side and potentially build that sustainable contender,

which is what I think every team's looking for right now. Well, I think it's pretty clear that part of why it's so intriguing to talk about them is they also, I would hope, reached their nadir this past year. Like, I think when you speak about that valley, it's hard to imagine that they could dig deeper when you talk about a team that went to 17, 49, and 5 with a minus 123 goal differential. And to put that into perspective. When I was prepping for the show, I was kind of looking at it, I'm sure you're all too familiar with this, but no team in the 2000s had a lower,

point percentage, the only team with less goals per game than theirs, where there were two, and they were the 2013-14 and 2014-15, Tim Murray Sabers. And so I think the craziest part for me is I remember it seems like another lifetime ago now, but they actually started out the season in like an exciting manner, right? Like they had the Anthony Mantha explosion offensively. They won three of their first four games, I believe.

And I remember heading into the year, I was like when I was prepping, ESPN had me do their watchability rankings and I had the Red Wings at 29th. I actually considered even having them at 30th or 31st and I only had the Kings and the Sends worst. But my thinking was like with this blue line, like other than Philipponic, I just don't see anyone here that can get the puck to Larkin and Manta and my least appealing thing to watch. And that HL is teams that just like dump it off the glass or just have these constant turnovers in the neutral zone. And so I envisioned that. And so when they got off to this hot start, it was. a lot of like, oh my God, like what's going on here?

And then quickly things sort of reversed course. But I don't know, like, is it, is it fair to say like that? This is probably, I think, as bad as it's going to get. If anything, it was like mercifully cut short where they didn't have to play the final 10 or so games in the regular season because it was that bad. Yeah, I mean, you have to hope that this is as bad as it gets. I mean, because, you know, when you're talking about the Red Wing season, I mean, you brought up the goal different.

which is just incredible and impressive. It's just they weren't even in games. They were getting consistently blown out. I mean, they have a minus 122 goal differential and only 71 games. It was just they were on historic pace, arguably the worst season in franchise history. And the 39 points they managed to muster. I mean, you're talking about a points percentage that really is up there with only expansion teams. Like there are only expansion teams that have put point percentages in that ballpark.

And so, you know, I think natural variance is going to lend itself to the Red Wings being better, even if they had done nothing, being a little bit better next season. I don't think it's going to be a similar situation to, you know, what the Buffalo Sabres saw when they had their kind of really big bottoming out. And then the following season, they had kind of another bad year. I think that was a little bit abnormal when you look at teams like this. So I think it's safe to say the Wings are probably as bad as they're going to look, at least measurably, from a points in goal differential standpoint. point. But I think the important thing is to kind of temper that and say, well, that doesn't mean they're going to be a playoff team next year, right? I think a lot of people are, you know, on the flip side, getting excited about some of Iserman's moves, the draft. You know, you have to recognize

that even if you added 13 wins to the Red Wings this year, which is almost doubling their total, you're still putting them at squarely 28th in the league. So they've got a long way to go, but I do think this is about as bad as it's going to get. I can't decide what my most, like, just, the stat that captures the outrageousness of their season, whether it's them going four and oh against the Montreal Canadians, or the fact that there was a time where like five or six, I remember I had a tweet and it went viral, but five or six NHL coaches were fired in between Detroit Red Wings wins. Like there was just a stretch there where they went so long without a win and it was just like flurry of NHL coaches being fired and it was it was amazing. I guess, you know,

in terms of practicality, it ultimately doesn't matter because they are what they are and or they are where they are and they eventually got there. But I think for the interest of this conversation and kind of taking this in the next direction and sort of getting into the thought process of how we analyze where they're currently at, it's like it's this question of how intentional was this? Like was this just part of sort of the natural life cycle of an organization where, you know, you talk about they had that 25 year postseason streak and certainly towards the end of it they're making really short-sighted trades to get kind of rental players to try and squeeze into the playoffs just to keep that street going, especially, you know, with their ownership group at the time, they wanted to maximize that while

they still could while Illich were still alive. But then part of it is also like when they entered this year, everyone thought they were going to be bad, but no one thought they were going to be historically bad per se. And it's not like they necessarily were, you know, actively holding these blue chip prospects back and sort of intentionally, away good contributors to get even worse. Like it felt like they were almost, they were bad. And then you're right, kind of the natural variance of it just resulted in a bunch of accumulation of losses.

But then they also like didn't really, they just accepted it at a certain point where like, all right, well, let's just embrace this because this is where things are going as opposed to trying any sort of quick stop gaps to stop the bleeding. Yeah, I mean, if you look back and you want to figure out, all right, let's do a post-mortem and let's figure out how Detroit got to where they did. I think really the year that was problematic for them was the 2015-2016 season. At this point in time, they were still a competitive hockey team.

They just made the playoffs. They were still in their playoff streak. You know, Mike Eledge is still alive. This is the team that's thinking we can still contend. And so November of 2015, the Wings hand a seven-year extension to Justin Abdel Cater. I think that's kind of the first deal that really signified a problem. because, you know, at that time, you had players like Gustav Nyquish. You had your Thomas Tatars, you had your Thomas Jerkos, your Riley Shahans.

You had a wave of young players that was, you know, still fighting to be established at the NHL level. I mean, you know, fighting for more of that ice time. And a guy like Justin Ablocator who benefited a lot from playing with Henrik Zetterberg and was able to put up a 20-goal season. I mean, he goes out and he gets rewarded with a big seven-year deal when you had guys in the system. You probably, you know, could have pushed up. And then the following offseason, you come to the 2016 off season,

and that's where Franz Nielsen gets a five-year deal from Detroit, or six-year deal from Detroit. You know, Darren Helm gets a multi-year from Detroit deal from Detroit. You get Thomas Vannick getting a deal. You get Steve Ott getting a deal. I mean, they literally went out and threw a ton of money at guys that you just don't do that. And then they followed it up, you know, with a handful of poor drafts. And I think the thing with the Red Wings was, you know,

for a while they've had this reputation as being an excellent. drafting team. But really, they haven't been that good. They haven't really been that good in quite some time. And they've just gotten lucky with a couple of hits randomly. You know, it'll be the guys from the late 90s is what sustained them in getting Zetterberg and Datsu and subsequent drafts. You know, I think that's what really carried them forward. It's being able to pick up a guy like Nick Cronwall. You know, it's being able to pick up, you know, on Andreas Athanasia and Anthony Manta in a late first round. Those are the guys that got them there. But really, if you look at their draft history as a whole for the better part of the 2010s, it's pretty poor. And so they followed up that

2016 offseason with an atrocious 2017 draft that, you know, is really going to see them not put any sort of high caliber NHL player there. And so kind of putting all that in there, then you have Datsuk's departure, Zetterberg's kind of pseudo retirement right now on LTIR. And, you know, Nick Cronwell has now left. And you're still burdened with a lot of those lengthy contracts. And so, you know, this past season, you still got Luke Glendon, he was finishing out a four-year deal. You know, you've got your Darren Holmes on his multi-year deal, Jimmy Howard, you know, finishing out on, I mean, that's probably my favorite stack going back to your thing. He finished his Red Wings career on a 20-game losing streak. His last one was Halloween.

You know, you have that, you have Franz Nielsen barely being able to be in the lineup. And so it was that culmination of a lot of bad decisions made about five or six years ago with retirements that happened and you were left with just a terrible. team. So I don't know that it was really intentional to be as bad as it was, because I don't really think the wings really embraced that tank until really 2018. So I think, you know, 2017-2018 is maybe the first time that they really embraced it. So they didn't mean to be where they got. And it's kind of a culmination of five or six years of deals. Yeah, when I was trying to think of the sort of turning point, because obviously, you know, you have this era where the 25-year postseason streak, they

have six finals appearances in that time. They win four cups. I think. you know you have the rush in five but you also just ahead of the game in terms of what you were alluding to with the drafting there just dipping into the european market and being like oh we can just like in the sixth and seventh round get these guys and stash them in a couple years they're going to come in and and be household names and embracing skill throughout the lineup i think also you know once the cap did come in to play they were sort of i don't think they get enough credit for the utilization of it in terms of pushing the boundaries and sort of um using little avenues they could to improve their team in the short term with like just throwing a bunch of money

at marian hosa for that one-year deal for example or and promising them like oh we all have a chance to win a cup and that's something you really want to do or um you know at the time before they were outlawed giving hennig zetterberg that 12 year deal to keep his cap hit manageable johann friends in 11 year deal to keep his cap it manageable and keep the team together and so you know obviously once the league on the fly changed it and prohibited those it winds up looking bad but at the time it allowed this great team to stay together and so you kind of can't fault it. But so in terms of the turning point for when it went south, I was trying to think back that I think, you know, one obvious answer is just Pavel Datsuk deciding he's going to go

back to Russia and leaving and it's pretty clear that, you know, the team was, I think he saw the writing on the wall and the trajectory was already in play and I'm not sure how much of a difference he would have made, but I don't think it's a coincidence that he leaves and they haven't made the playoff since. but the other one that I was thinking of, and I kind of almost didn't remember this one just because it was 2013, it was forever ago, but they were up 3-1 against the Blackcocks in round two,

and I almost didn't remember that just because I just think of Chicago as winning that title. And we remember, I think they started the year 210 and 3 that year Chicago did, and they were just this dominant regular season team in that shortened 48-game sprint. And then Detroit just randomly blitzed them. And I was looking back at the team and I was like, oh, Jimmy Howard had an awesome year that year.

And they had Datsuk in Zetterberg. But, you know, Damien Brunner was their leading goal score that postseason. You know, the blue line, there was a lot of Jonathan Erickson. There was just like Carlo Coliacobo was randomly playing for them. Like, it wasn't a great team. And so they were really close to beating the Stanley Cup champs that year. And I think that sort of emboldened them a little bit to moving forward than, you know, March 2014. they're trading Patrick Eves, Yarn Croke, and a second for David Legwand.

The following trade deadline in 2015, they're trading Matthias Yamark in a second, which turns out to be Rupa Hintz for Eric Cole. And they ultimately made the playoffs those years and extended it and got to that 25-year milestone that we'll be talking about until the end of time. But it's pretty clear to kind of point back to that and be like, all right, 2013, or maybe they sort of exceeded expectations and gave people the illusion that they were a better team than they were at that point of their franchise life cycle, definitely kind of steered them in the wrong direction in a couple years to come

as they tried to squeeze every last drop they cut out of that core. Yeah, I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head. I think for me, I also look back at that 2013 playoffs and really even predating the Black Hawk series where they had the lead, they were up three games to one. I mean, that was just an incredible series for those that remember it. I mean, there was a one of those games where Jonathan Taze just completely lost as cool. He took three consecutive penalties. I mean, the NBC cuts to him in the penalty box, and he's just slamming his stick, completely frustrated screaming.

You know, I've never seen him like that, and he had to really be calmed down by his teammates there. I mean, in Chicago was a dominant team in the regular season that year. But really, even before that, I mean, Detroit was the seven seed walking into the playoffs. They played a really good Ducks team. and they were actually down 3-2 in the series of the Ducks, and Hendricks Zetterberg scores an overtime of game six to actually send that to a seventh game. You know, on this weird slap shot,

I still remember it's just this weird slapchat from the top of the left circle off of a face-off that just seems to beat Jonas Hiller and you're just like, huh, I don't know how that got in. And that, they shouldn't have beat the Ducks. And if they lose that series there, you just have to wonder, do all of those moves that you just laid out happen,

do, you know, does Detroit? finally say, all right, this is the time to do this, because remember that the season prior, Nick Littstrom had just retired. That was your moment to do it. You had lost Nick Littstrom. You had lost Brian Rofalski, you know, in back-to-back years. And now this was the time to say, okay, we can tear this down and make, try and get one last rush, you know, run out of Datsk, and Zetterberg and Cronwell, that, you know, trio by targeting a couple years down the road. But instead, I think going up three one on on Chicago, nearly beating them. I mean, I mean, everyone remembers game seven in that series went to overtime,

and it was a Brent Seabrook shot that deflects off of Cronwall skate that goes into the net. That's how Chicago beats Detroit, and that was their toughest test that year. And so, again, if that doesn't happen, if Detroit doesn't get within millimeters of beating the Blackhawks, I don't think you are where you are right now, even with kind of the thought that Mike Yulich really wanted to push this team to get as much out as the much out as possible, he was still alive. I think at that point, maybe cooler heads prevail, and you say, no, I mean, I think we're not really in position right now.

Well, and you see, I believe they haven't won a playoff series since. They made the playoffs in a couple of years after that, I think in three in a row, and they lost in the first round each of those years, and then they haven't made it since. But yeah, it does feel like that was kind of the last hurrah, and maybe, it was a great story, obviously, and I think you'd take that chance at almost beating Chicago. But, you know, we know sometimes that those, the lasting image in your mind from a given playoff run can ultimately dictate all lot of decisions to come in the in the following year. And I think that certainly played into it as well.

You know, the reason I was bringing up, uh, you know, the tank and in terms of like whether they stumbled into it or whether it was, uh, you know, whether they were actively tanking or whether they just realized on the fly they were going to be bad and they just didn't do anything to address it. It's like when I was prepping for the show, I was putting together a list of the most recent kind of like truly bad teams and how they got there. because I do think it's like it's a good starting point for discussion in terms of the autopsy to figure out what led to that right and you got the very extreme examples of the 2013 and 2015

sabres we talked about where Tim Murray comes in and he's like you know the NBA model we need we need to get really bad get a couple of top picks and hopefully turn it around that way you got the I think this is my favorite stealthy one was the 2015-16 Leafs in Babcock's first season where you know they trade Phil Kessel that previous summer and then they just bring in these like kind of rag tag group of like Brad Boys and PA Parento and Sean Matthias and it's like they're not pretending they're going to be good but they just have these like one year stop caps and that similarly reminds me kind of to what Detroit is doing right now how they approach this off season where they bring in you know Vladom Mesnikov they bring in John Merrill they absorb Mark Stahl's contract and it's a lot of like really low

low-term commitment deals where they're just kind of filling in active roster spots and hopefully trying to pump their value and flip them at some point next year while giving room for their young guys to develop at the lower level so they're not feeling the pressure to come in and contribute right away on a nightly basis and so that would kind of be the most reason to me because I don't think it is as abundantly clear that they're just tearing everything down like the buffalo sabers did. I don't think it's, you know, the 2016-17-Colaro avalanche get lumped in a lot in this conversation because of their horrible goal differential in one percentage that year but like that team already had a bunch of like

big-name players in place and that was just like the goaltending completely submarine in that year and it was just the season from hell I don't think this is what's happening in Detroit and then you've got like the 2017-18 Ottawa senators that just didn't understand regression and actually were bad and trade for matthew-shade and then just completely fall apart so it's just interesting to kind of think about all of those tanks and how they got there comparing them to the Red Wings and sort of how they stumbled into this truly historically bad season that they just had. Yeah, it's a great point to bring up. And I think the tanking conversation is one that is just a very interesting conversation to have with people who follow the wings closely because, you know,

tanking has such a negative connotation for a lot of people. You know, they say, well, you know, we didn't want to intentionally be bad and we didn't, we're not trying to subvert the system. We're not trying to work, you know, to do that here, even though it's very clear that a lot of those teams previously. I mean, the race for McDavid was about as abundantly clear as possible. And so, you know, when you look at Detroit and you talk about the concept of tanking, I think what it exactly is is kind of what you described, Dimitri, and that they brought in a lot of just stop gaps and pieces that they're really ever going to be a part of the long-term future here. They're not fooling themselves, but they're just bringing in things and they're trying things.

And I think the credit I'll give Steve Eisenman is he's always willing to try things. You know, if you look at this past season, you know, he's a guy who goes out. He trades for Alex Beigo who's not getting time in Vancouver. Maybe that's going to do something. He goes and gets Brendan Perlini from Chicago. Maybe that's going to do something. He gets Robbie Fabri for Jacob de La Rose from St. Louis. And, hey, maybe we can, you know, resurrect Fabry's career here.

You know, being able to pick up Adam Ernie from Tampa as another guy who was probably not going to play a lot. So he went out. He looked for guys. There was never anybody who was going to move the needle substantially. And that's fine. because that's ultimately what you wanted. You needed Detroit to end up towards the bottom. You didn't want to necessarily call it tanking,

even though it's effectively what it is to a certain extent. You weren't trying to push yourself all the way up, but that's fine because that was the right strategy. And now I think what you're saying this off season is, again, more of the same. You know, bringing in guys like Stetcher and Merrill and, you know, Nemesnikov and Bobby Ryan, you look at the Red Wings Cap Friendly page, and it's just vastly different from what it looked like three years ago.

there is one guy on a deal beyond two years and that's Dylan Larkin. You know, granted, we still have the Anthony Manta contract to come and, you know, unless Dimitro Timmishoff gets more than a couple years. I expect really only Anthony Manta and Dylan Larkin are going to be the only two guys with deals beyond two years. And that's the way it should be in the modern day NHL being able to preserve that kind of salary cap flexibility. No, that's a really good point.

Yeah, and even Larkin himself, he's expiring in the summer of 2023. that's where you want to be. Like that, I think the most hopeless places where they were a year or two ago, right, when, like, you look at it and you'd be like, oh my God, like,

so Jonathan Erickson's still on the books, Darren Helm, friends, Nielsen, you just go on and on and, and you think about how crazy it is. And, you know,

you spin it forward and they basically have roughly $30 million in cap commitments coming off the books in the next year or two, I believe, and that includes, obviously Zetterberg's buried money, but you know you've got like Stephen Weiss's buyout still which is 1.67 million and and so you've got all of these Open room now obviously how they use it is a lot different because I think it's really easy to just tear it down

It's much more difficult to build something of substance but at least they have that flexibility which is I think Where you want to be in terms of the starting point so we're gonna talk more about what they've been doing since you alluded to a lot of those moves already We're gonna take a quick break here to hear from a sponsor and then we're gonna going to dive right into that. Sponsoring today's episode of the Hockey Pedyo guest is Bet Online. You might not be going to a game this year as we wait for the world to sort itself out and for this pandemic to end and for it to be safe to go back to live sporting events. But in the meantime, you can still be in on the action at Bet Online.

Bet Online is going the extra mile to make sure you can get in on every possible chance to win this season. From game spreads and totals to team, player and coaching props, Bet Online gives you more options to wager than anywhere else. Obviously, there's no hockey or basketball on right now anymore with their season's over, but football's still on. And down the road, when we know when the NHL season is going to be getting back, you're going to be able to go on there and start wagering on futures,

like championship, who do you think is going to win next season, Stanley Cup, wagering on wins, you know, player props. There's going to be a lot of good stuff there. So I recommend going there now and familiarizing yourself with it and trying it out and taking for a spin and then getting ready in advance of the next season. So just head to BetOnline today and take advantage of all the great sign of bonuses they've got there. Don't forget to use the promo code BlueWire at betonline.ag to let them know that we sent you. That's Blue Wire, all one word.

BetOnline, your online sportsbook experts. The NHL may be on a break, but your business isn't. And similar to teams who are looking for new players in free agency and looking for bargain deals and players they're going to be able to help them out moving forward, you similarly have to keep moving, and that makes hiring more important than ever. and that's where Indeed.com's the number one job site in the world because Indeed gets you the best people fast. Unlike other sites, Indeed gives you full control and payment flexibility over your hiring and you only pay for what you need. You can pause your account at any time and there's

no long-term contracts. Plus Indeed provides powerful tools to make your search that much easier. With 73% of online job seekers visiting Indeed each month, Indeed's going to help you get the important hire you need, just like they have for over 3 million businesses. So right now, Indeed's offering our listeners, a free $75 credit to boost your job post, which means more quality candidates will see it fast. Try and eat out with a free $75 credit at Indeed.com slash Blue Wire. This is their best offer available anywhere. Go right now to Indeed.com slash Blue Wire. Terms and conditions apply, offer valid through December 31st. Okay, so according to our pal, Domest Chishin, no team added more wins via GSVA.

than the wings this off season now. No team also added more salary than they did. So that makes sense. But the other team that added the most salary was the Ottawa senators, and they got worse in theory. So it's all relative, right? Like it's a lot easier to go from what are basically,

roughly replacement level like HL players to actual NHL players that can step right in and you know at least won't embarrass you. And so going from historically bad to competent is a lot easier. than going from good to great or even from great to one of the biggest contenders in the league. But in terms of what they did, you know, they said goodbye to Jimmy Howard, who, as you said, has not won a game for Detroit Red Wings in basically a calendar year now as Halloween's approaching.

They signed Thomas Grice to two years, 3.6 per to tandem with Jonathan Bernier next season. They get the 2021 second for taking on one year of Mark Stahl. And, you know, it's a 5.7 cap hit, but it's only at. actually, I believe, 3.2 million in actual base salary. They signed Vlad and Messnikov to two years, Troy Stedcher to two years, John Merrill to a year, Bobby Ryan to a year. And what really sticks out to me when you look at that

in terms of that long-term flexibility we were just talking about was they weren't going that third year for anyone because they're trying to keep that window open and trying to figure out over the next two years what that next version of the Red Wings is going to look like three years from now. And so that's really interesting because recently we saw Gini Dadov sign a relatively reasonable deal with Ottawa Senators, and he's certainly a good

player that's going to help them and give them some of that respectability moving forward and is a nice guy to have to play with Brady Kachuk. But I think, you know, it's pretty clear from the Red Wings perspective. They just weren't going to go that third year, and I imagine that's ultimately why a guy like Dadanov just chose Ottawa instead, whereas, you know, you'd wonder with all this cap space, why wouldn't Detroit be trying to add a player like that and potentially flip them a year from now? and it's pretty clear because they weren't going to give them that third year.

Yeah, I think that's exactly it. I think the moves that Izerman made this offseason were very calculated and kind of all had a singular purpose. I'm going to make my team better, and I'm going to make sure that I preserve cap flexibility, and I'm going to make sure that I use every dollar kind of in a meaningful fashion. You know, I'm not here to just throw money at a guy like Dadoff, Mike Hoffman, things like that, bring talent in simply to do it,

because that's not really Detroit's goal. I think what Eisenman knew from the end of last season was this team had to be better on the ice. And so he had to go out and spend some money because, you know, as much as we say, yeah, tank, tank, be the first, you know, give yourself the best odds in the lottery. You know, the way the current system set up, I don't know that you do a lot of good with having a season like Detroit just had, you know, a 39-point season. I think he'd much rather be in a position like Los Angeles, Ottawa. You know, you're still in that mix for the first overall,

but you had a competent hockey season. And so I think Eisenman went out. He knew he had to do that. And that's what a lot of those players were. These were guys who were going to be, you know, marginal to somewhat more reasonable upgrades in the case of Stetcher, I think is actually an outstanding player that Vancouver let get away. I think he was able to bring in guys like that that can fill in certain positions,

but kept everything to that two-year term because I think, historically one of the problems for the Red Wings is when they've had prospects who need an ice time or they've had guys, you know, who were ready, they didn't have a spot. And so now Detroit's starting to stock up that prospect candidate. They've done a good job in the last three drafts and adding guys like, you know, from Philip Zedina to Joe Valeno to Jonathan Bergren, you know, most recently with Lucas Raymond, Theodore Niedabach. You're starting to add a lot of talent that is going to need to see the NHL level probably in the next one to three years depending on who you're talking about and so with those guys with that cap flexibility I think that's a key thing that Isman's really keyed on

and then I think the other principle that I'm kind of taken away from here is I think he understands the concept of you pay your star's term and those are the only guys who get term you're more you're maybe more willing to give dollars in other areas you know I think even taking Tyler Bertuzzi to arbitration is a great example of this you know I don't think Bertuzi's in the same tier as your Anthony Mantha and your Dale Larkin, and he's going to arbitration when, you know, maybe the smarter move to a lot of people would have been given four or five years. So I think those principles are really starting to come out in Eisenman's plan and watching him for a second year.

I think he's really looking to preserve that cap flexibility and roster spot and he's trying to be intentional with every dollar he has. Yeah, no, intentional is the good word there, just like in terms of thinking about Eisenberg and, you know, what he did in Tampa Bay and sort of. what he's presumably going to do here in Detroit. Like the best thing you can say about him is that sort of intentional nature or kind of like decisiveness or being able to critically evaluate what you have yourself as opposed to just kind of focusing on what other talent is out there in the league

and sort of realizing and kind of ruthlessly sometimes like detaching yourself from a player you might think has value around the league but isn't a core player of yours. I mean, we saw, you know, in Tampa Bay when he's like moving guys like, you know, Corey Conacher, who's this great story, he's producing numbers for Ben Bishop, or flipping Jonathan Druand for Michael Sergacheb, or, you know, being able to sort of make decisions like that. And so when you're evaluating, like, who's really bolted down here in Detroit and who's a core member, the list is pretty short in terms of actual NHL players right now that are producing for the Detroit Red Wings. And everyone else is going to take,

and with the cap flexibility they do have, I mean, they still have at this point, $19 million dollars in cap space moving forward for this coming season and as they said they're going to have 30 more for the following off season it provides them the ability to give players more money up front to avoid giving that term on the back end and maintaining that flexibility so sort of wielding that as an actual utilizing that cap space as a weapon not to mention what they did with the mark stall deal where they just absorb that one-year contract for a future second round pick which is a valuable asset. That's the stuff that rebuilding GMs and rebuilding teams should be striving to be doing on a regular basis. Yeah, I completely agree. And to add to all of that, I mean, in addition to

being able to give more money and more term, you know, oftentimes you'll see GMs want to hand out no trade clauses, no move clauses, things like that to kind of incentivize where's to come. He didn't hand out a single one of those to anybody he signed this offseason. And that was another big issue for the Red Wings was they had so many guys. that had, you know, no trade clauses, no move clauses. You know, the Frons, Nielsen won in particular, you know, he had a no move clause for the first couple years of his deal, and now he's still got a modified no trade clause as you're getting towards the end. I mean, you look at all the deals that he signed, Eismund has signed in the last two years, really only Philpola has a modified no trade

clause, and that's it. None of the guys he added this offseason do. And so I think that's a really important aspect of Iserman is, again, he's not having to go and really hamstringing. his ability to be flexible with this roster. And, you know, again, to your point to meet you, the list of guys who belong in Detroit, who are going to be Detroit Red Wings is small right now. It's Dylan Larkin, and maybe you can throw Anthony Mantha in there. But everybody else is kind of an expendable player.

I think, you know, we'll certainly see what Philip Zedina does this year, what Philip Hironic does this year, you know, in bigger roles. Maybe Hironic needs a little bit more sheltering from, you know, some of the guys that Eisman brought in. But right now, your list of core essential. players is Dylan Larkin and Anthony Mantha and those are the guys that should get that term and everybody else needs to be flexible and I think he's done just really a masterful job this offseason in maintaining that and allowing this team to really take shape in a lot of different directions moving

forward. I would add Hronick into that list of guys who should be key pieces moving forward. I know his overall numbers don't look that pretty, but I was kind of looking at it. It's like when he was playing with an actual NHL partner and Patrick. him it like it was pretty good like you know they only played around 400 or so minutes together but weren't getting sheltered and the overall numbers were fine they were keeping their head above water but then you look at who he shared the ice with a five-on-five and there's like little sprinkles of daly bowie de kaiser beaiga like you know gustav linstrum bian lashoff dylan mackleath like the list is just a huge who of a defenseman and that ultimately i think is a pretty rough spot to put a

young player in and and you know you talked about something earlier as well where I think it's easy for us from the outside to just embrace, you know, the tanking and the losing. And it's like every loss is a step in the right direction. But when you're historically bad, I can imagine that's like a pretty negative work environment for you to be coming to the rank every night and going like, oh, we're just going to get embarrassed tonight. And it's going to be very upsetting. And this is not going to be a fun time. And so I think there's something to be said for maintaining a certain level of a modicum of kind of like professionalism and respect to. just so you're not a complete laughing stock.

And so I don't know necessarily how much the moves they made this off season are going to help push the needle in that regard. I think what you talk about at the start where just pure variance and how this stuff works, they're going to just win more games just because even if you're that bad, you're not going to lose as many times as they did last year. So I think they've got that working in their favor. But I do think there's something to be said for, you know, like a Thomas Grice, for example, I don't think he's like the sexiest name or he's not going to make a big difference.

and I think it's going to be a pretty jarring change for him to go from Barry Trots' Islanders to this defensive environment. But at this point of his career, like he's kind of seen it all and done it all. And, you know, he's been on some bad defensive teams as well with those Doug Wade Islanders before Trots came over. So I think just having someone in place like that is certainly going to kind of help steady things a little bit. So, and I think the other thing that with the limited term and the no move, not handing out any of those sort of restrictions for trades, you know in 2018 they had 10 draft picks in 2019 they had 11 picks this past year or like last month in the draft they had 12 picks they've already got nine so far for the 2021 draft including three in the second round and when you look at that list of players and all the expiring deals it's not necessarily anyone that's going to move the needle but just considering how we know how nchl trade deadlines or reckon the fact that the randwings have the ability to retain up to three contracts at 50% in the following trade deadlines. deadline. You can certainly see some of these names getting moved for a third round pick here,

a fourth round pick here. And so I imagine that come the 21 draft, they're going to be stocked with, you know, closer to maybe 12 or 13 picks at that point. Yeah. And I think that's going to be a move for Eisenman to look for the next couple of years, really, because the 2021 draft is going to be a little bit of a down draft, you know, in terms of elite talent at the top, I think relative to this past year. I think this past year is kind of one of the stronger drafts we've seen. But you come back to 2022 and 2023. And some of the next. names you're looking at at the top of the draft, particularly in 2022. I mean, you have some outstanding talent there. So I think a lot of Eisenman's work moving forward should be in the name

of acquiring elite talent. And in my opinion, right now, the best way to do that is trying to find a way to get multiple picks in 2022's first round or 2023's first round. I think that's going to be the way forward for them. And so my estimation is a lot of these guys having those two-year deals is going to be potentially I can flip them, you know, at the 2022 deadline to try and get another pick in the 2022 first round or second round. And same thing, you know, potentially using some of the picks they have in 2021 to trade back into the 2022 draft in a higher round if there's a guy that another team is looking at. So I think that's kind of the strategy moving forward where I see kind of irsmen looking at is what's my best shot at elite talent. I think right now it's the first round in 2022 and 2023, and how does he maximize that value there?

He's already done quite a good job of accumulating picks, you know, throughout, you know, the last couple of years. I mean, you know, we've talked about Andreas Athenshappen to see you at length, I think on previous PDOCAS. Unfortunately, it didn't work out for him in Detroit. It also didn't work out for him in Edmonton, but they got two picks out of Edmonton for it, and Edmonton's not even going to, you know, keep them around.

And so being able to do those kinds of moves is going to be key. I think moving forward, particularly the next couple of years. I mean, just having the cap flexibility. I was looking at this past trade deadline and just to see some of the stuff because it was such a blur and there were so many trades coming that it was kind of tough to retain all of that information at once. And it's like the Leafs somehow got involved in that Robin Leonard trade to Vegas and they basically just absorbed $1.1 million in cap space as like a third party

and they afforded themselves a free fifth round pick in doing so. It's like, you know Steve Eisenman. going to be involved in all sorts of that stuff where he's like he shouldn't be even at calling all of the GMs and saying do you want something from our team he should be like just keep me apprised of if you're planning on making any moves and allow us to kind of help facilitate that for you like for you know a small little sweetener in return you know but mostly out of the goodness of our heart i mean especially with the way the salary cap is seems like it's going to be parked for the next couple of years i think you're going to have teams that are going to have to face consequences

I mean, we're already seeing it with what Vegas had to do with Nate Schmidt. We're seeing it with Tampa having to try and wave Tyler Johnson to get someone to bite on it. I think you're going to find teams that as they get closer to the trade deadline, they want to get better. They don't have the space. And so Detroit's going to be sitting right there. And Steve Eisen is going to be saying, hey, I've got 10 million in cap space that I didn't bother to use. You know, just let me know. And I'm happy to retain some salary for you so that you can.

add this piece, but oh, by the way, just throw me a pick over here and let's see how that goes. So, you know, I think that's a move. I think a lot of people in the past are accustomed to Ken Holland taking that space and really spending it to the cap. My suspicion is after you get the Bertuzi deal, which I'm expecting to come in a little under $4 million, and you get the Manta deal and you get the Timoshov deal, you're still going to likely have around $8 million or so would be my guess. And that's money I think Eisenman just takes forward, you know, for exactly that purpose is, hey, let me be that third wheel here and see what I can help you out with. Were you surprised that they decided to buy out just an applicator as opposed to just sort of biting

the bullet and just kind of letting, because what, it was a 4.25 for like three more years and then you'd be done with it as opposed to spreading it out over six years. I know it's like a much more manageable $1 million cap hitter or so over those six years, or I guess over the final three years of that at the back end. But it was just, that seemed like a kind of, maybe it was just, purely like let's just get him out of here because it doesn't really fit with what we're currently moving with going forward. But just in terms of like the finances, considering they do have the cap room over the next couple years, it would have struck me that you'd prefer to have that money off the books now as opposed to kind of lingering in years four or five and six.

Yeah, I think that's exactly it. I think really the decision to buy out abdokator was a bit surprising for me just because, you know, I haven't really seen the wings, demonstrate that in the past, like the ability to recognize the need to buy out. I mean, yes, they bought out Stephen Weiss. Yes, they did it with Xavier Roulette to a certain extent. But Justin Alpsgator was a guy who had an A on his chest. And so that's not something the wings have typically done. That being said, you know, like we just talked about, that salary cap, the next three years is likely not moving a whole lot. Every dollar matters. And having $4.25 million dollars tied up in a player that as recently as last season was demonstrating difficulty staying in

your lineup you know yes he's been a good red ring yes he's been around for a period of time but that's 4.25 million dollars you can't allocate elsewhere you know if you don't make that move you can't make a mark stall type move where you go out and take salary in exchange for a pick so yeah i mean the ability to lower his cost from 4.25 to 1.8 million this year is key And then that's still $2.3 million in 2021 and another $2.3 million in 2022. So, you know, you've essentially bought yourself about $6.3 million over the course of three seasons to utilize in a fashion where you can acquire picks, be able to retain salary for teams, you know, and use that money more, you know, effectively. Or, you know, in the case of, you know, some organizations, if you're just struggling financially, that's money that you're saving, you know, at that point, you know, when you think about how. the cap is calculated on a daily basis.

So ultimately, I think that's a shrewd move for Eisenman to buy himself some extra space. And again, that deal coming off the books is the reason why you only have Larkin as the only one with the contract beyond two years. Otherwise, it would have been Larkin and Abdel Cater. And again, that doesn't just fit with the Red Wings philosophy. So I think it was a really smart move. Definitely caught me by surprise, but it makes a lot of sense when you see what the wings want to do.

all right well let's spin this forward then in terms of you know how they fix things or sort of what the next couple years are going to look like we've already talked about some sort of avenues for them to explore in terms of helping teams facilitate deals in exchange for picks or future assets taking on contracts as they did with mark stalls you know the one thing that i that i noticed you didn't mention there was and for a team that has all of their picks moving forward and a surplus of second round picks and third round picks is the opportunity for an offer show you know the one thing that i that i noticed you didn't mention there was and for a team that i sheet, which is an interesting avenue. I think certainly if there's someone who wouldn't be afraid of the ramifications of that, it would be Steve Eisenberg. And, you know, it was, I remember at the start of the offseason, like he was linked to, you know, especially like Eric Ternak, for example, or he's familiar with him. He was the one that went out and acquired him and brought him to Tampa Bay in the first place. Seems like that's a player that could be had for whatever the 4.1 million or whatever limit is,

where you're not even giving up premium. you're basically giving up just a second round pick. And with Tampa Bay's position, they wouldn't be able to do so. But like I sort of accepted or presume what happened, all talk of offer sheets has quieted down and dwindled down as it would just be too exotic and too fun for the NHL. Yeah, I mean, you know, we can't have fun in the NHL. I mean, everyone knows how much we were out of control

when Montreal offer sheeted Sebastian Ajo last year. So they know we can't handle it again, especially if you actually get a competent offer sheet kind of hand it out. You know, and so I think if you're Steve Eisenman, which you have to sit back and think about is, what's the best way for me to inject elite talent onto this roster? Because that's the key, and that's the key for any GM looking to rebuild is, it's not, you know, how do I do this, you know,

how do I add these good players, how do I add these quality players, what do I make that trade? The end of the game is, how do I get elite talent onto my roster? If you're looking for how some of these bad teams have dug themselves out, it's with finding a way to have elite talent. It's Tampa getting lucky with Kutrov and Point in the draft. It's, you know, you're looking at Colorado getting more and more production out of Nathan McKinnon and then being able to add Kilm McCar, and that's the push forward.

You know, Vancouver's getting excited with the addition to Quinn Hughes and Elias Pedersen, right? That's the way forward. So you've got to find a way to do it. I think most commonly we think of that being through the draft. as that's how a lot of those guys were added in that situation. That being said, if you have teams that are in really hamstrung positions, you know, you look at a team like Tampa, you look at a team like St. Louis that is struggling, and they have guys that are going to be restricted free agents.

You know, this offseason, we're talking about Anthony Sorrelli and Mikhail Sergachev, you know, two guys again who are outstanding. I think, you know, you may have a question about whether or not they're elite enough to make that offer sheet that Tampa ultimately has to refuse. I think that's going to be the question for Isman at the end of the game is can he make that offer sheet to a player that is elite that is going to move him, you know, in the next direction? I mean, the interesting one for me is, you know, if you look at the end of the 2020 or you look at I think the 2022 off season, that's where you guys like Matthew Kachuk, Braden Point, you know,

Zach Werenski, those are the guys who are going to be your RFA's in that time frame. And maybe that's your opportunity to capitalize. I don't necessarily see any of the guys this offseason as being totally noteworthy to jump after from that Eisenman standpoint, given the cost of draft picks that go there. And instead, I think Eisenman's maybe better suited to retain his picks. But, you know, that being said, down the line, I could see that possibility, particularly if the cap's not going up. Yeah, it's funny. We think of the NHL as, you know, it is the ultimate kind of team game and you need to make smart moves on the margins. and you and I just spent like 20 minutes talking about how important it is to

acquire future third round picks and like buying out just an applicator so you have an extra two million to use to facilitate a trade and then you have a team like the Canucks where they basically like I've been coming on this podcast and lamenting every move on the margins they've made over the past four years but they get Quinn Hughes they get Elias Pedersen at the top of the draft and ultimately it doesn't matter because they have an amazingly rosy outlook. Certainly this offseason it hurts that they lose Tyler to Foley and Troy Stetcher and Markstrom to the fact that they have Brandon Sutter and Jay Beagle and Louis Erickson taking up that money and so it hurts their ability to improve their team. But there's 22 to 25 teams

in the league that would love to trade places with the Canucks because they have those two cornerstones in place and you can figure everything else around around them. And so if your eyes are men, you're probably looking at Lucas Raymond and Mord Sider and hoping that they're going to have that kind of an effect where they can come in and all of a sudden they give you not only the hope but the ability to just add lesser players around them and they're going to make them better just because they're star players and that's what star players do yeah that's exactly it and i think you know going back to some of the other stuff you were just talking about there what you really want is you know when you get into vancouver's position you want the house to be clean so that when you're ready to roll when you

to get that elite talent, you can really hit, you know, go at all cylinders. I think that's the key. You know, where you see problems is when you're Edmonton and you add Connor McDavid and Leon Drey-South, but your house isn't clean. You've got Zach Cassie and you still got, you know, Milan Luchich, you've got a lot of bad contracts in there. You've got Chris Russell. You haven't found a goaltender. You're still paying Mike Smith, things like that. That's when you're holding back your elite talent. The situation you really want to be in is like Carolina who continued to clean house, continued to wait, continued to bide time, kept their finances clean, Andre Svetnikov drops in their lap, then they go out, they get Dougie Hamilton,

Jacob Slavin ascends, Sebastian Ajo ascends, they have Table Terrevinen who they got as a, you know, almost a cap casualty from Chicago. And now Carolina's building a sustainable contender. So Iserman, to me, is basically keeping the house. clean, keeping the books free and flexible so that when you do get that infusion of elite talent, whether that's Lucas Raymond coming over and dominating. I mean, right now we're seeing Jonathan Bergrand absolutely lighting up the SHL. I don't know that he's in that tier, but maybe that's there. You know, more at Sider is off to an outstanding start in the SHL. If you're getting those guys coming over and they really demonstrate that propensity to be elite, that's the

right time to then start using that money. So I think he's doing a good guy. good job of keeping those books clean so that when you have that infusion of elite talent, whether that's the guys they've got now, that's the 2022 draft, the 2023 draft, whatever it may be, he is ready to go. And I think that's the thing that a lot of GMs miss is both things are important, but ultimately the elite talent's what's going to get you the wins, but you're not going to be able to maximize that unless you have the house clean. And so I think he's doing that house cleaning and house tidying now in hopes that he gets somebody elite in the near future. Well, and I don't think there's any necessarily one right way to do it, but I remember, like, I don't know if I did it on the podcast or if I was talking about it off the air with Tyler Delo before he went and started working with the New Jersey Devils, but he was of the belief that when you're a rebuilding team and you're kind of like stealthily tanking or you don't really want to make the playoffs because you want to increase your lottery odds of getting a higher pick, it's really tough when you just fully kind of tear everything down and just have a really bad team because,

It's really tough to go around and turn around then and get like 15 good players while also not making any mistakes contractually and limiting yourself moving forward. He was of the belief that, you know, you want to keep kind of accumulating and adding talent to your skater group while having really bad goaltending almost intentionally to submarine the results, but actually kind of under the hood being pretty decent. And then all of a sudden you get better goaltending and the results start to come. And it's tough because you can't necessarily flip that switch in terms of guaranteeing that any goal you add is suddenly going to have good results for you. But it was interesting kind of to watch how they navigated last year with Jimmy Howard and Jonathan Bernier, where Bernier was actually, I think, playing pretty well.

You know, his raw save percentage wasn't anything amazing. But just in terms of goals saved above expected and basically what you'd expect from him given the defensive environment, he was basically like a net neutral. and gave them a very reasonable performance, whereas Howard was minus 27 goals above expected and didn't win, as you mentioned, in basically a year. And so, you know, they go out and they add Thomas Grice. And I think part of the thinking there for them was he's a good player and he was willing to take that two-year deal

and at that kind of contract structure of 3.6 or whatever he took, it was just a reasonable deal for them to take and just see where it goes and maybe they flip Bernier at some point this season and then they have Grice and a young goalie as a tandem for another year or so. But it was a it was kind of a curious move for me from the perspective of like going out and adding another goalie because it kind of just flies in the face of what I just said in terms of intentionally having bad cold ending. Maybe it was purely what we were talking about earlier where it's like you want to be

at least competent and you don't want to be historically bad. I'm not sure sort of what the thinking there was. Maybe it was just the value was too good to pass up for them. Yeah, I think you raise an excellent point. I've had a similar conversation with Chris Watkins, you know, on Twitter where, you know, when you talk to him about some of the wings moves and get his perspective, he thinks the single most damaging move of the wings made was signing Thomas Grace. Because exactly to your point, goaltender is that X factor where you just don't know always what you're going to get. But, you know, you could end up in a scenario where your goaltenders are actually just night in and night out.

bailing you out. And I mean, to a certain extent, Jonathan Bernier from December on was arguably one of the top 10 goalies in the NHL. I think his October and November were quite rough, but you look at December really into March before the play stopped. And, you know, by goalie goals above replacement, he was, I believe, 10th or 9th in the NHL from remembering correctly. So, you know, that can really undo you here. And now having, you know, Thomas Grace and Bernier, you could be looking at a scenario where your goalies are just kind of bailing. out your defense and they're stealing games for you. And it's almost a little bit of what happened to the Buffalo Sabres when they were trying

to intentionally tank. And they actually had to start trading goalies out. Michael Neubert was playing too well. Michael Neuverer, they're like, we've got to get this guy out of here. So, you know, you have to move them out. And so you almost wonder if Detroit's going to run into a scenario like that. But, you know, that being said, my personal belief was the Red Wings were so bad last year that I don't think there's a chance they're too good this year.

And I think a lot of, if you watched the team last year, you know, you just saw how much this weighed on, you know, guys like Dylan Larkin. You mentioned Philip Horonick last year. That really weighed on them as young players. You know, I think at the end of the day, you want to be just somewhat more competitive. I think it's a risk. I think it's by far the riskiest deal. You know, Eiserman handed out was to Grice. But that being said, I think they were so bad. I think this is. merely going to just keep them competitive. And again, even if you're talking about a net, you know, 26 points, they increase their point value by 26 points. You're still the fourth worst team in the NHL. So I don't think there's that jeopardy there. But who knows, this is the variable that everyone is really uncertain on how to project. Yeah.

Yeah, it's tough. Like I was looking at it. Thomas Grice has basically been 9-15 goalie for his career. the one outlier was 2017-18, where it was just a clown show with Doug Wade's defensive system in front of him, and he had an 892 that year. And so maybe if you're kind of projecting ahead, it won't ultimately matter because as sort of average or reliable as Thomas Grice is

with the team in front of him probably won't do a high-15 say percentage again, regardless of how well he plays. So it might not matter. But yeah, it's an interesting sort of just thought exercise to think about, like, that Neubert situation was so comical where they were just like freaking out that he was stealing them kind of in spite of the performance in front of a movie stealing and then you've got the fans cheering for the coyotes to win in Buffalo. And so yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of sort of kind of tangential stuff that goes along with it. I'm sure

Steve Eisenman's looking and he's like, oh man, Joker's like at Dim Philopovich are tweeting these stark snarky stats about how Jimmy Howard has lost like 25 games in a row. We can't have that. And so, like, yeah, I get it. It makes sense. I don't think it ultimately changes that much I think it's all relatively speaking like with all these deals like I I like I like Vlad and Messnikov as a player I think the way his career arc has yo-yoed from playing with Stamcos and Kutrov and being on Tampa base top power play unit to getting buried on the rangers to go in Ottawa and then to playing with Nathan McKinnon and literally scoring two goals in game seven against the stars and being four minutes away from being like a playoff hero to now being on

the red wings like that's kind of one of the most fascinating career paths for me but as much as I like him and as much as I like Troy Stetcher, you're right. When you're as far away as the Red Wings displayed they were last year, ultimately, I won't matter for the results of 2020, 2021. But it will help in terms of the process of what the team looks like in the years to come just based on helping the other young players and also potentially getting flipped for future picks down the road. Yeah, I think that's exactly it. And you know, to the point you were making about your conversation with Tyler, I think this is a little bit of that adding guys who are somewhat young. to basically see could they be a part of this team moving forward as that kind of quote

unquote supporting cast. I mean, you know, Stetcher's 26. Merrill's 28. I mean, these are guys who could potentially play for the team, you know, five, six years depending on, you know, their performance here. And I think this is a lot of Eisenman's moves last season going out for Fabry, who's 24, you know, Timoshoff, who's 24, you know, going after, you know, Adam Ernie, who is 25. Perlini who's kind of on the younger side.

So I think he was doing that and fishing for those guys. But, you know, we'll certainly see how this plays out moving forward. Yes, we will. Well, I think we both covered it. Was there anything else with the Red Wings and the rebuild that we failed to touch on? I feel like we kind of achieved our task of discussing how they got here, what they've been doing, and how they fix things moving forward. I think we've got it.

So, you know, I think keep an eye on the next couple of years and say all this plays out. Well, we'll certainly look back at that. This is a blast, man. I'm glad we got to do this. Hopefully, it wasn't too depressing for Detroit fans that were listening, and hopefully fans of other teams could be able to take note and kind of get some instruction in terms of, you know, roster building and sort of theory in terms of construction and what you do with your team if you're in a rebuilding position. So, Sean, this is a blast. Plug some stuff. Where can people check you out online and where can people listen to your podcast? Yeah, so you can. You can always find me on Twitter at Iyer underscore Purshant. You'll find basically 100% of my own filtered

thoughts there at this point as I don't get around to a lot of writing. But, you know, I also have a podcast through The Athletic with Max Bultman. It's called Wings for Breakfast. We, you know, try to record about once a week or so. So give us a listen, you know, if you like what you heard. Awesome, man. This is a blast and we'll definitely, like you said, check back in, hopefully sooner than a couple years, but we'll get to chat sometime down the road. So have a good, and enjoy the all season. Thanks, man, you too. So that's going to be it for today's episode of the Hockey PEOCast.

As always, I'd like to thank everyone for listening to today's show. And I'd like to thank those of you who have gone and left the PEDEOCast a rating and review. If you are one of the few that's still holding out and hasn't done so, it's never too late to express some love and help us out. It goes a long way to where it's helping the show. I personally appreciate it a lot. and it really is super simple to do. Only takes a minute of your time. You can just leave the five-star review

or if you actually want to drop us a line there as well. You can tell us about what you enjoy about the show or what it means to you. You can write whatever you want there. But it's all really appreciated. So thank you for doing so. And yeah, we'll be back later this week with another episode of the PDOCest.

I hope we've got a special show and guest planned and it'll hopefully drop in the next couple days. And then we'll continue as we get into the offseason here with more shows. We've got some fun stuff planned with more of these rebuild episodes where we deep dive bad teams and talk about how they got to where they are and what we can learn from them and how they can improve. And we're going to get back into doing the rewatchables. So if you miss them during the early days of the quarantine of the spring, we did about eight of them or so, I believe, or maybe even nine or ten.

but it was a lot of the, you know, instant classics from the past handful of years that were really notable and we had a blast doing those. So go check those out. And if there's any we haven't done yet that you'd really like for us to cover in the coming weeks and months of this off season, we'll be doing those with some fun guests. So certainly feel free to let us know which games you'd like for us to rewatch and devote individual episodes to.

So thanks for listening to the show. We're going to play the outro music here now and we'll be back soon. The Hockey PEDEOCast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovic and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockeypedeocast.