The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 367: Turning Defense into Content

Episode Date: October 29, 2020

Connor Carrick joins the show to discuss the intricacies of playing defense in the NHL, why it's a job that's dependant on so many variables, and how much the demands of the position have changed over the years. Topics include: 2:00 What does "good defense" look like exactly 5:00 The evolution of the position 11:00 The impact coaching has on decision making 18:00 Using patterns in data to gain an advantage 33:00 Toughest player to defend 39:00 Learning from success of other teams 44:00 Dealing with the forecheck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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With your host, Dimitri. Welcome to the Hockey Pediocast. My name is Demetri Filipovich. and joining me is a fellow hockey podcaster who also occasionally dabbles in playing hockey on the side. It's my buddy Connor, Karen. Connor, what's going on, man? Well, that's certainly the truth these days, isn't it? Yeah.

You know, right now as we're, you know, hanging out on quarantine, it's been fun. It's been fun. Thanks for having me. The podcast game is more fruitful than the playing professional hockey game. Yeah, right now, and you don't need 25,000 screaming fans in one area to, you know, do something with your audience. It's the power of the internet. It's the power to be more than, you can be in more in one place, you can be in more than one place at one time.

Exactly. I was looking for. Yes. All right. So here's the plan today. I've been wanting to do this one with you for a while. I've been sharing some messages. I kind of want to get into blending a bit of game theory and like theoretical data that,

you know, I would use more in terms of like coming up with concepts and ways to optimize performance and stuff. And then you as a player actually being able to speak to more of the sort of practical usage and utilization of it. I thought we could bounce some ideas off of each other and pick each other's brains, especially me picking your brain. And hopefully we'll have some fun talking about hockey. And hopefully people enjoy the two perspectives or the two sides coming together to talk about it.

Yeah, let's do it. I'm excited to learn. Well, the reason why I think you're especially an interesting guest, I mean, obviously, you know, you've got your own podcast and we can talk about that more later. And you've been speaking about a variety of topics. But the position you play, the defense, right? Like for me, it's something that it's alluded me for so long as an analyst. Like, goaltending, I can fully admit, like, I never played goalie or, you know, they're kind of their own separate animal.

And you just sort of like, you know, the old joke, goaltending is voodoo. You don't know what you're going to get year to year from a goalie's performance. It's all over the place. I kind of just can chalk that up with defensemen. Like, I'd like to think that we'd be able to analyze the performance of defensemen and defensive play more. but it's been such a, it's been like alluding analysts like myself because it's really tough with how much the games change to say like what, what is good defense? You know what I mean?

Like what does it look like? Because ultimately the best defensive play is probably one where you yourself read the play well, you're ahead of it five seconds in advance, you get into good position and the opposing team can't even get the puck to attack in a dangerous area because you're already there, right? So it's like this idea that you did your job by not allowing anything to happen. How do we quantify that? In your mind, as the game's kind of been evolving and you're playing the position yourself, like the requirements of it, what in your mind if you close your eyes and you're like,

I did my job really well here. What is good defense at the NHL level look like in 2020? So to me, when I'm trying to understand my own game and kind of give myself a star rating out of five maybe, you have to take into context, I think, the way the game went. So for example, if you're on a poor team where these games are consistently tough games, and you're just taking rush after rush and you're defending, you know, time and time again, it's a really hard game to justify where you're at because you're kind of at the mercy of the other nine guys on the ice. Like that is what good defense are.

Is are you in the right spot at the right time relative to what the other nine guys are trying to do and where the puck is? On a bad team, you know, sometimes that might be you're just, sit in your own slot all night trying to do box out after box out. And if no one's able to get a stick on it and, you know, there were a couple breakout plays we're able to exit through the middle and get clean entry on a tough night where you're just in your own end, like that might be a good game relative to the hand you were dealt. Ideally, your team's competitive every night.

And that's where you can really get a truer sense of for me, how often am I able to put the puck carrier or the other team? in a tough spot based on, you know, there's an element of smothering, right? Like, I have my guy, and because of that, the player is now under mortar rest for trying to beat someone on their own, you know, somewhere else up the rank where someone else's job is that much easier for us to do on the defensive side, harder for them to do on the offensive side. Gap is a huge one.

I would say how much time can you spend in your own end or how little time, how quickly and influential can you be in terms of breaking pucks out and breaking plays up where you can create transition and then after that is where you start to, those are all non-negotiables. Every coach is going to ask you to do those things and there's certain players that

are bigger, faster, stronger, smarter at doing that. And then once you get the puck back, that's where I think you kind of get the different tiers of defensemen where certain guys are just so dynamic offensively and they're able to create a whole plethora of office. You know, plethora of

options that the average team just isn't staring at it. I'm thinking of like a kale McCar, for example, like that type of explosion at our position just didn't exist, you know, five, ten years ago. It's funny. It's funny you bring that out. You can see you spoke, you played with Miro,

but it's funny you'd bring that up because, like when I was thinking about how much the position has evolved, when quarantine started back in the spring as a project that mine in the podcast, I was going back and watching old games, old classics. And like, it's not even going back that far. I went back to the 2009 Stanley Cup final when the Red Wings and the penguins were playing, and that was only a decade ago.

And just, like, what stuck out to me the most was, and with all due respect to the players involved, like, you've got, like, Mark Eden and Hal Gill and Rob Scudery and Brad Stewart, and they're treating the puck like a grenade almost sometimes where it's like, as soon as it gets on their stick, they're just dumping it off the glass and out. And it just looks like an entirely different sport almost compared to, you know, your typical regular season game that you'd watch in 2020, where every defenseman seemingly can, you know, get the puck and comfortably at least make some sort of an elusive, play where they evade a four checker and get it out of their zone or do something

constructive with it as opposed to just quickly kind of frantically getting rid of it it's almost you i almost consider like the rocking chair demon where when you talked about some of the demon of the old world you know what were some of the things that they did well all they're always positionally sound they're always in the right spot they have unbelievable poise with the puck they're super calm and wait for the option to present itself and then they're able to make that little slip play and you think of it like you think of sergey gonchar kind of of coming up to rank with two and and he was unbelievable offensively and i'm not taking anything away from surrogate but like you know there was a steadier pace to his game nick lidsstrom when you think

about nick lichstrom carrying the puck um you know he was uh you would say about lichram like he was always in the right spot position he was so sound well like someone like mero he's not only in the spot he's supposed to be in like he's able to cover spots that he has no business being able to with his ability to skate. And so I think that, like anything, that just the tools on display at our position now are, there's a challenge to have greater and greater tools year and year out, particularly with skating.

And I think that that's going to continue to be the case. You can just be more places more quickly when you're able to get there. You know, if your feet are doing what your, you know, head so wants you to be able to do, you know. It's a hard thing to put into words, but that's what I think of when I think of the next wave, like just a bunch of megatrons out there flying around and, you know, kill in place. Well, I guess part of what makes it difficult evaluating that as well.

You mentioned He's going to, he might be sort of the rare example here where, you know, he can be an offensive defenseman where he can lead the rush with the puck, but he can also then quickly turn around and be the first player back. And so you don't necessarily have to worry that much about pairing. you're kind of traditional stay-at-home defense and where then we see coaches kind of love that right if you have like a kale macar and you're jared badnar you love to play him with like a Ryan graves because you know he'll be like a bit steadier and he'll stay back and be a bit more conservative more defensively minded you know quid hughes and and chris tannett have like coaches really seem to love that sort of dynamic and that's part of what makes uh evaluating the defensive position so complicated to me it's where i think you can probably speak to this more but you probably are a bit reliant on the the circumstances as well where i imagine if you're playing

with a partner who can do certain things better than others like your strategy of the way you might attack the play might change right like if you feel comfortable with a guy where you know that your partner is going to lead the breakout you might focus on other stuff whereas if you're playing with a more sort of traditional stay-at-home defense and all of a sudden you might be pushing the envelope a bit more and being a bit more aggressive yourself yeah and it does and i think you see it kind of set up as like i don't know primary and complementary players on a pair right so and i think the idea is as simple as in football you only have you know one quarterback right like so you give the ball of the best decision maker every

time you can which is you know tom brady so a lot of times on these defense pairs like I think it just simplifies the game for both people when they have that complementary element where, okay, say you are, you know, maybe Chris Tanna, who I, you know, don't know and, you know, frankly don't watch a ton of Vancouver in my career just because I've always been closer to the east, even though they are fun to watch.

I'll catch them every time I can. He knows, you know, I imagine, when you're playing with a player with the puck play as good as Quinn Hughes, you know in your mind, like, you give it to the guy that's, You maximize his assets. You really have an interest in getting him the puck right away.

And if you're Quinn Hughes, you love that because now there's an extra element of predictability of the game. So now it's no longer like you're spending 0% of your brain space on anticipating the puck's coming your way. You already have that rhythm where you know it. So now instead of, you know, Quinn might be looking to his right, you know, because Tana plays the right side. Like now his gaze can turn up by us and he can start to evaluate, okay, what's coming on? not similar to, you know, certain, like, power plays where there's just brutal confidence that the player's going to get through. Similar to, like, the Washington Capitals, right?

So Nick Baxter's such an elite half-wall guy. You know, John Carlson, a lot of power plays will see that top deemann to get available. We'll go to the wall, right? We'll come out of the wall, get way out of the lane of the first forward, just to be extra available, extra safe, not have to go through any sticks and skates. Well, that lane isn't as good to pass to the weak, side one-timer or to present a shooting threat yourself. So he just has such trust that Nick Baxter's going to Rubik's cube that top forward

that he can just plant his ground. He's not going anywhere. Like back, he'll figure it out. And I think that's a little bit of what happens where both players are able to, you know, now Quinn Hughes knows exactly what he wants to do with the puck. And Chris Tannup knows exactly what he wants to do with the puck. And I think it creates a level of predictability. And it's sort of like a, it gets ingrained in the nervous.

almost like a football team running a play that they've run a gazillion times you know like there's both teams know they're going to try and go to you know gruncowski in the red zone and for whatever reason the guy always comes out with it like how is that you know well and the other other thing is and it's this is what makes it so tough from the outside when you're watching tape on someone where like i have my certain preferences on what my ideal defense would do in terms of how often they shoot or what if they have a certain play open to them whether they go for it but they might do something which I completely disagree with and they come back to their bench and the coach is giving him a pat on the back saying good job, you followed the game plan and you did exactly what we

wanted to do, especially if you're playing more of a complimentary second, third pair role and you're not out there every other shift. And so we see that time and time again, like the stars were a great example where, you know, Rick Bonas comes in, becomes the head coach and completely gives them a green light and all of a sudden you see Jamie Alexiak acting like Bobby Orr out there where he's flying up the rush and winding up behind the net all the time and trying to score goals. And it's because the mandate changed completely where all of a sudden they realized, oh, we want you actually to engage more offensively, whereas with the previous coaching staff,

it was much more of do sort of your job simplistically as a defenseman, avoid risks and get off the ice. And so in terms of sort of the job description, I think that also plays a huge role in sort of the performance. It's everything. I mean, when you go out, you can't really see it, but it's almost like one of those zap collars you'd put on a dog. Right.

And as players, like that, these conversations are had behind closed doors of this is our culture this is what we ask of our D-Men great play and the flip side of you know Jamie or Connor Carrick what do you do and join the rush there if you have an appetite to do that we can you know there's a nice spot you know with the American League team the lecture run up and down wherever you want that those conversations are had with just about you know every player you know up and down your lineup And, you know, it's the coaches, it's their rule of roost. It's, that's why they're the head coach.

They were hired for a reason. And it's, I guess what I'm always trying to identify in the teams that are most fun for me to watch is when you can tell there's total coherence from top to bottom. And, okay, the GM wanted to draft a certain player with a certain tenacity or style of decision making. he's armed the coach with, you know, the war chest of players and pieces to play this way. The coach is consistent in coaching it, and now the players have had time, you know, to be able to ingrain this in their DNA, and it just all works, you know. Similar to, you know, Washington, they've drafted high skill forever, and they've always been this elite team off the Russian on the power plate. You know, St. Louis just had, you know, size, and you were the other.

or big and strong when they won, or you had elite cutback ability where you were just kind of showering in grease to get away from a defenseman all the time, and they would just hold on to puck. They were not a rush team. They were going to pass up opportunities in the rush. They wanted, keep you in your own end for a minute and a half,

and you could tell that there was great clarity in that. And I think you see those moments all the time in games where, and I can think of it even in my own game, where I've taken shots, maybe I don't like you know I took a shot where the goalie was staring straight at me we know the odds on beating you know Freddie Anderson or Kerry Price whatever from the blue line on a wrist shot

it's slim to none if they're not doing it yeah but sometimes the conversation's been had of like hey our forwards aren't getting there shoot it anyway it's their job and that's kind of the building nature of a team hopefully towards a goal you know towards a playoff a certain identity come playoff time and that's just sometimes a growing pains yeah well I guess that's sort of that that mandate of what to do or sort of what

a defenseman's role is as has been evolving so much I mean you know by the time you came into the league at it already I think the dynamic had shifted but it's been like it seems like every year every other year it keeps moving to to more and more extremes where like a great example for me is a guy like Jared Spurgeon or Jacob Slavin like I I marvel at their ability to play that smothering brand of defense that you're talking about without kind of knowing exactly where that line they can't cross is and pulling back at the right instant or not getting their hand caught in the cookie jar to take a penalty and they're constantly able to play good smothering defense without penalizing themselves sitting up for two minutes putting

their team down a man and I like when I started in the industry and I think it still is pertinent in some circles but you you still hear low penalty minotivate. totals associated with soft play or not not being a strong defenseman and it's so like that dynamic to me is so funny to me of what um the n hl and and what i guess hockey in general sort of rewards or looks at as like good milestones to be hitting as like barometers for good defensive play yeah i mean my goal every year if i could have absolutely zero penalty minutes that would be ideal because there's not the worst and sitting in that box knowing you took a poor penalty and a guy is and have to, you know, throw his foot and break a foot or break a leg, you know, on a Shea Weber one-timer,

or, you know, you go down one on the road and you got to, you know, peel yourself out of the box and go back to the bench. And I do the opposite. I'm always marveling at the guys that are able to keep it down. You know, the guys are able to defend and have active sticks, but they are, they're just always in the play close enough where there isn't that reaching element. There isn't that, you know, horizontal stick where you see, you know, the hands get out away from the body and the ref's arm go up. You know, there's, there's hooking and slashing and cross-checking and interference on literally every single play all over the ice all night long. It's the outliers. It's the ones that that hook just irritated that guy enough. And it's an art, you know,

where you're able to, you're able to bother and enter the other guy's thought process enough so that they're not able to orchestrate the play that they want. You've started to enter into their mind. You've started to enter into their decision-making process. And as a D-Men, that's always your goal. Well, okay, so I wanted to talk to you about the idea of analytics and sort of data and information and as a player,

how you can use that to your advantage. Because I think, you know, it's really easy for reporters after a game to, to bait a player into being like, oh, you know, the shot attempts here say that you weren't very good tonight, but your team won anyways. What do you, what does that say about analytics? And then you have Tyler Sagan in the postseason being like, oh, well, I guess analytics are dumb because we're winning. So, you know, they must be wrong. And, and that's such a, you know, unfortunate sort of way to go about it because I think it misconstrues the value of it. And for yourself as a player, like I always viewed it as I'm a firm believer that,

controlling the supply chain of information is very important, right? So if you're an NHL team in an organization, you have someone in your staff that is able to synthesize all of this information, all this data, how you're breaking the puck out, how you're defending your zone, all the stuff you're doing, and then put that into digestible little packets and then gives that to either the GM or the coach. And then as a coach, it's your job to sort of, you know, bring that to the player's attention in terms of game planning or, you know, pre-scouting when you're about to play someone, especially in a playoff series, let's say, where you're going to be getting very familiar with the team playing

them four to seven times in a row. And that can give you a little bit of a leg up when the margin for error is so small. So that's where I think the value is. And for you as a player, you know, obviously you don't want to be bombarded because it is such a read and react sport and everything's happening so fast. You can't just be as a computer sitting back there and breaking everything down and then running the optimal play. but I do think in terms of knowing your opponent

and sort of knowing where they'd like to attack you or knowing how certain guys with their tendencies and how they'd like to play, you can't tell me that there isn't some sort of a functional value to that as a player. Whether it's in the off season during your training or preparation for the coming season, or whether it's before a playoff series

or before a home and home with a team or what have you. Like there's got to be some sort of a functional value just in terms of extra information being useful. Yeah, I think there's a great market for it Because as a player, you know, you've seen it in football, right, where they have such a study on the opponent because they only play one game a week. There's time for it.

And that's what as a player you're doing when you're watching someone's tendencies. You're just doing analytics in your head. You're just not writing down, you know, in charts and things like that, what the percentages are. But you're taking mental note. You're starting, oh, okay, this guy really likes to jab step this way. This guy really, you really can't ride them too close as you're getting in on a loose puck because he's really slippery and cuts back underneath. And I think as a player, I'm interested in patterns,

and I'm also interested in conversations around things that maybe would be unorthodox or we would consider risky where they're actually not. So, for example, I might want to know, you know, as a young D-Men, you're told a lot of times, keep the puck out of the middle. Well, I've played for certain coaches as young in my career where they really wanted exit through the middle of the ice. So now all of a sudden, I'm being asked to make a play that for a long time has been taken out of my DNA, has been taken out of my toolbox.

And, okay, it's maybe a different read. Well, if someone could say, hey, Connor, like, I know you feel this play is risky, but pound on the puck into a wall where we know the demon's going to pinch and this is the percentage of the time it stays in, like that's real risk. Go back and play with a free mind and see that play. don't force if you've got to flip it out off the glass, fine, defend the next rush. But what's really risky is being predictable, you're going to keep it on the wall. That's where you're able to mitigate, you know, fear or nerves or anxiousness out of a player.

And really what you're able to get is buy into the system. And I think it's really important just because the game, the schedule happens so fast that analytics, I would feel, are a great tool to identify. patterns and nip them in the butt instead of, you know, let's say there's a five to ten game period as a demon. I just don't feel like I'm getting, you know, shots through. You know, I just don't feel like I'm getting any scoring opportunities.

I haven't had any, you know, tips for goals. Like these are things that I, you know, take a lot of pride and a lot of value in and being able to do. And a coach is, and I've gone through this. A coach has shown me like, you're just fading outside the dots so much. Like, it's so safe. I know it feels comfortable out there, but you're really not as open as you feel. You're a mile from your D-Man when he gets to you.

Instead of, hey, why can't you stand a little bit more in the middle of the rank, have more tip options available to you so you're not as easy, you know, of a shot to block and come into the puck a little bit into the middle. And it's interesting. My first, I think it was one of my first, as a devil. I had just had a video session with a private coach that I use in Chicago. Brian Keen was his name. And this was the conversation.

Connor, I think, you know, at the end of your state, in Dallas or staying outside the dots like let's really try to do with a step or two as that puck's coming towards you d-to-d at the offensive blue line can you take a step into it and just sift it by that guy from a better angle I think you'll have more net to tip into and I think I had to assist my first intential game with the devil's doing that well I think I'd one and one one one was a fade away but one was the first one I think was coming towards it across the grand we'll give you the second assist there as well no it's interesting because like so when Darry parted ways with the Rockets recently.

There was someone, I forget who the Twitter user was, but they put together this sort of shot chart of how much NBA tendencies had changed where people were shooting the ball from when he started with the team in 2008 to how much it had changed in 2020. And it basically showed that like every team started adopting that model of threes and layups, right, where it's like the mid-range just completely got eradicated. And every team started either trying to optimize their possessions. and Michael McCurdy did something recently as well as showing from 2008 to 2020 in hockey how the heat maps show that the tendencies for teams have completely changed where that middle of the ice, whether it's strategically by the opposing defenses or whether it's trying to optimize your own offense, has completely gone out of the picture.

It's dark blue. And then the red dots are front of the net and then basically from the two points. And that's sort of give and take and that chess match of like, and we saw it in the Stanley Cup final, right, where Dallas was the best team at keeping the puck out of the middle of ice. And Tampa Bay was the best team at getting the puck into those high danger areas. And ultimately Tampa Bay and their talent wound up coming out on top and persevering. But that interplay of, you know, the opposing defense wanting to limit you to something

and then you having to tactically find a way around it is probably the most like appealing part to me as an analyst in hockey. And it's a shame because we see it's much easier to break down that way in football and in basketball because it's a bit more a bit less free flowing. Whereas in hockey it's a bit more random and there's more events with the puck just flying around. But I do still think there is a place for it in our game. Totally agree. And I mean, I think about it as a D-Man. And I've been able to play under some really high-profile, high-success coaches across the league and, you know, my still short career, I guess.

And it's interesting even to listen to them on the different verbiage they'll use, the different ways that they'll try to get to Middle Ice, the different ways, the different risks that they're willing to accept, you know, to get there the different breakout schemes that they want to use. Like I remember when we were in Toronto, like our conversation was go back on a puck and I want all guys to be available for it and calling for it. sounds super simple. But when you actually watch,

if you come back on a breakout and you watch a lot of NHL teams, like pause the clip when the demon first touches the puck and tell me which guy has the posture that actually is commanding. Because that, like, no one wants it actually.

You'll see these tells in play that to me is so wildly interesting. And I'll try and pick it apart in my own game where, all right, Connor, like you're standing outside the Delta and the neutral zone completely stationary. And like, how excited do you think you? How confident were you?

you that night. How excited were you to get that puck? And for me, I'm really interested in how can I get more consistent performance when my nervous system skates hands, their eyes, everything feels good? And what are some of the tells of when I'm not playing well? Can I just avoid those things like the plague no matter what? Like can I force myself to get going and believe and trust that, you know, my system that I've spent so much time training can automate, you know, when I am trying to take someone on one-on-one. Because, like, what I do know, for example, in the NHL, someone's always attacking and someone's always defending.

Someone's always playing offense, and someone's always playing defense. And that's not always in respect to who has the puck. Like, there's a lot of guys playing defense while they're carrying the puck. Like, they're thinking, I have the puck, but I'm trying to put this in a position to not create any harm. Yep. You know, they're really defending. And it's fascinating.

And you watch the different teams and you see the way that they are able to build a nervous system over the course of a season and really over the course of multiple. You know, really is what I've been able to see is it really does take years to develop a perennial contender. Like we've seen Tampa stick to its guns, draft and develop and acquire free agents around this ability to make plays through the middle of the rank for years. And good for them. They deserve to win. They had a stellar team. but it's interesting when you're able to see it beautifully, you know, orchestrated the way that they did. Well, that's why as fast and free-flowing of a sport as hockey as especially at the highest level being played in the NHL,

it's still, there's still a human element of like tendencies that you wind up resorting to or falling back on or stuff that, whether it's just the way you trained or the way you're wired, you're kind of more comfortable with. And that's why, like, knowing the tendencies of your opponents is such a valuable thing to me, because, and you see it, like here's a great example, with the Washington Capitol's power play, where a common sort of question you get or people pointing out or making light of it is like, oh, how come Alex Ovechkin is so wide open from that left circle?

He scored a million goals from there. Everyone in the building and watching at home knows where that capital's power play wants to get the puck. But if you see, you know, T.J. O'Shee there in the middle of the ice wide open by himself, as a defenseman, you like, in that split second, you find yourself kind of gravitating more towards him and sort of cheating because it is happening so fast that you just wind up sort of resorting to that and the next thing you know, the puck is over to Ovechkin and you kind of had that one lap. So

that's what's the interplay of sort of the human element of like waiting for someone to slip up and and sort of give in and make that sort of mistake is so interesting to me. And it happens countless times in any single game you watch. It is. And what I think is cool. I mean, you've got Nick Baxter, who's probably the best half-world guy in the national hockey.

Like the next pass that this guy makes that doesn't land flat will be his first. Like everything is perfectly saucered, lands flat. And you'll notice, too, even Ovi, he's not moving to get open. Like, he's never outside that dot line. Like the responsibility, and I've been in their power play meetings, like part of the conversation, is like, hey, guys, we've got four other really skilled players.

If they want to go over and sit on Ovi, they have, you know, plans that'll hurt, you know, to make it hurt and score on the power play else, you know, otherwise. And they do, they do do that consistently, just amongst those sports a little bit more distributed. So it's not as obvious as the amount of times that Ovi's able to pound it in the back of the net. But you'll notice there's a conversation around, hey, you four are, you know, good players,

elite players. It's your job to figure out this penalty kill. to draw them out of a position so that OVee can stay in a good lane. Because if he drifts outside that dot lane, you know, the fifth and most important guy to beat on the penalty kills is the goaltender. And the angle gets worse and worse and worse, the further out he gets,

and the more and more time that puck, the longer it travels, you know, the goalie doesn't have to go that far, you know, so OV can be wide open and hammer this perfect shot, but if the pass takes long enough for the goaltender to get over there, it's irrelevant.

I mean, maybe not with him. He's able to beat some goalies that are still in position. You know, he's a monster. Well, but with those two guys, it almost makes it more impressive because like Baxter to his core wants to pass the puck. And Ovechkin obviously wants to shoot it, right?

Like that's like, and that's why those guys have made such sweet music together for as long as they have because that synergy there is so perfect. Whereas you get to, you know, some more potential dual threats. Like when Tampa's humming on all cylinders with their power play,

especially with Kucharov, like he has that great shot, but he also wants to do that cross-seam pass. And if it's Stamco's standing there, and he can also similarly either shoot it as one of the best shooters of generation or pass it back to Kutrov. As a defender, you kind of,

it's basically pick your poison where you're at their mercy and you're just like, you're dictating how they're going to beat you. And so that presents its own sort of set of challenges. And I imagine that's kind of like, I guess you're sort of holding off for dear life and waiting and thinking,

man, if I'm killing a penalty against these guys, maybe I'm just trying to drain the clock or maybe I'm trying to force him to make that perfect pass and it bounces on the ice and we'll get a sort of bounce go our way that way because otherwise you're probably not stopping them. Well, it's a cat and mouse game that happens right at the moment of impact that they get that puck. And it's, you know, as players, all we are is old school goalies, right? Like we're trying to give something and then think that you have it so we can take it away and block it. And you see this massively done by the elite penalty kills of the game where they're trying to give, misinformation or they're trying to do a double cut.

The issue is at the end of the day, the power of decision-making really does come down to the player with the puck. So, you know, Kutrov decides to double-pump that one-timer as you were coming across, you know, and then fade back towards the middle where he's got this elite angle to find two sticks, one on the, you know, goalie's immediate backdoor and then sort of in that diamond slot, you know, in the hash. It's a fun part of the game The talent that these guys You know have and that I have

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Terms and conditions apply. Offer valid through December 31. All right, let's do some quick kind of rapid fire stuff here before we get out here. What's the, what's the toughest player to defend in your mind? Patrick Kane. Patrick Kane for sure. Yeah, just because of the puck skills. You just don't know where it's going to go.

Hammoor, him or McKinnon. Because I think, you know, McKinnon's such a bully. He likes to take off and he wants to go through people. And he just, he has a top speed threat that's just so strong. but Patrick Kane just I play against him a lot of times in the summer in Chicago he's in such unbelievable shape people don't realize like he's never tired he's always fresh especially when the puck's on his stick he will if there's something available he's going to execute it and it's one of those things where you're in a tough spot

you you can't over respect him because I'll pick apart the coverage on the back side and those guys got to work like dogs but if you really run at him he's under such control and with such poised that he's going to be able to try and shake you too and i don't know he's just he's a special talent see i'm not surprised by the mckinaninan answer because like it's clear especially when you watch what he did this postseason the sort of speed and power that he has is kind of on parallel in the league i would i would have thought you know the first answer for an nchl defense would be would be caught in macdavit just because of of the sheer speed and and well him too i i've yeah he those two mckinin and macdavit just

because they play at a certain pace. But even, like, I have had the challenge and the opportunity where, you know, we're on a West Coast swing with the Devils when I had first gotten traded there. And, you know, Conner's, you know, such an elite skater. He hasn't been a lot of the time my matchup, just where I'm at in the lineup and where he's at in the lineup. But the opportunities we have been on the ice. He does.

I just find that some of his tells, I think, are a little bit more obvious in terms of what assets he's going to want to use. He wants to outskate you, and he's so good at it. But a lot of times you're able to angle yourself to try to keep him to the outside and let him shoot, which is tough. McKinnon is just an interesting one, I think, because Colorado in particular comes wave after wave after wave.

So sometimes it is a track meet style game, like line 1 through 4 almost. And so there's going to be reads in a play where I remember there was a play similar in New Jersey where I was actually playing in the top half of the line up there. I was playing in the top four role. And I had joined a rush and someone tried to pass to me. And it was kind of an ugly play, hit a skate or something. and McKinnon, who was on the back check, like started, you know, pumping that crossover,

and there was, like, a moment, okay, do I lunge forward, or does he get this puck? And so I decided to retreat, knowing his top speed. And I turned around, he was, I was, you know, already at the red line far blue line, and he was still at his own blue line. Like, he decided to pump the brakes and hang out and survey the play. He has that type of, you have to have that type of respect with him.

You have to have that type of respect with Connor. similar to even a Patrick King like Leon Drysaddle is very difficult you know to deal with because he wants to bring it close he's so big and strong I see so good just different ways that they'll beat you for sure I you know when you were talking earlier

in this podcast about gaping up and sort of how you view that as like a sort of essential part of defending right and and it's especially become more prevalent as the game has opened up and and teams are attacking more off the rush, and players are, you know, skating so much faster than they used to that it becomes much more of a priority to be able to do that

as opposed to focusing on sort of your being a big, lumpering meat and potatoes defensemen who just breaks up in-zone cycles. There's like, there's very, the list of defensemen, I think, is very short who, I think everyone in theory in their mind loves the idea of gaping up. But then when you see, like when you're talking about that McKinnon example, where you have to make that split decision of, should I go for it or should I in a kind of self-preservation tactic, maybe take a few steps back here because I know how fast he can get.

You often see that a lot where even with smooth skating defensemen, I think sometimes you're taking one of those two or three precautionary steps back as opposed to aggressively defending the blue line. And I think that's what makes it so special. The few defensemen, I think, that can consistently do so because I imagine it's both physically but also mentally like a very, challenging thing to execute time and time again. Well, that's what we're doing, right?

We're doing in our head analytics, right? So if I give this guy time and space and let all five guys get back and give them a rush opportunity, what do the odds they score? What if I get in a foot race and lose? What do the odds this guy scores on a breakaway? So, you know, that's on ice analytics where we're trying to make a hedge decision. And really, to me, like the modern day defense. The word that I like to think of or try to use is you just want to be a part of the rush.

You want to be annoying. You want to be there like every step of the way. You want to be if the puck's in the left corner. So goalie, the team that we're shooting on, that goalie is right, you know, like my left, my far corner. I want to be as close up on that opposite winger, my winger, as I can be. Like I want to be sitting right on top. I want to be touching pants to pants. and just sitting there ready for whatever rush

so that every single way I'm a tattoo. Like I am so close to him at all times. Where it gets really difficult is when you have to gap up after like a rush and then, you know, this guy's already got so much time and speed. There's just really not an opportunity to do so or when they're able to reorganize the rush. You'll see this player like come up,

try and push a D-Men back and then come back again and re-loop. You'll see a lot of that like four-on-four. We're definitely three-on-three where there's a lot more ice five on five it's tough but the true it's always in our mind to gap up in match speed and try and get as close up as he can and then I love

it too where I've seen there's certain teams that have a certain level of I'm trying to remember who it's been so long well I guess not so long because we had the playoffs but since I was really in the fight really paying attention like I had to play but there is

like certain teams where they have no problem with a little bit neutral zone confrontation or ask their demon to okay maybe if you're in a scenario where you're not totally confident you could beat this guy if you had to race back to your own net but create a confrontation make this guy change direction right because we're going to have such great tracking over the you know through the middle that are forwards and it's going to they're going to get them just from uh you know especially when you see the the numbers in the defensive teams favor yeah you know what I mean um all right as a

I actually love that play. I think it's a cool play. Yeah. Although the sort of the neutral zone confrontation where you're just trying to slow down. Yeah. Where the D-Men have like a green light to either in a read they made or a conversation to sort of sacrifice themselves to become a problem for the other teams puck carrying forward. And then, you know, you just get that smother effect where, you know, F1 comes back, F2 comes back.

You know, this forward just felt like there were 10 guys on the ice. Well, the question. you have to ask yourself in this league all the time is sort of what are you willing to live with, right? And I think the reward system in NHL especially can be sometimes so conservative where I understand where a coach might want you to play back because you're sort of delaying the inevitable in a way, whereas if you're too aggressive, you can really wind up in trouble. And I think I'd much more prefer that aggressive approach of trying to nip the play in the bud at the point of origin as opposed to kind of waiting and letting them come in with speed. So it's interesting to hear you say that you agree with that as well. Well, so there was a question, you know, I think there was an experiment in the NHL a couple of years ago that fascinated everybody was the Las Vegas Golden Knights. I mean, we've been so spoiled here now with entertainment the last couple of years between, you know, COVID is maybe not a blessing by the NHL, but it definitely was entertaining to go through the whole experiment of how these guys are going to come back.

St. Louis going, you know, from last to what they're able to do, you know, in terms of the Stanley Cup final. Washington finally winning, but beating, you know, Vegas Golden Knights team, there was a player on their team of defensemen that I asked, because I had played with them and I called him up and said, hey, you know, the amount of guys that had career years on that club, like, what was in the, what was in the water? What was some of the secret sauce? You know, of course, he was only willing to share so much, but part of the conversation was avoiding risk or play that wasn't necessarily aggressive was scolded. Right.

Like as if you were, you were playing a, to play a safe game was dangerous for them and, and not allowed in their culture. And I think you saw a lot of guys pinned in roles where they had little leash. They weren't able to, you know, try and play their best self.

They were just trying to, you know, stay in a lineup kind of thing elsewhere, really flourished. And that's where you saw all those career years. And I think it was something that, You know, I definitely know at the time I was, I was fascinating. I couldn't watch enough of and try and steal something because I was in a similar spot. You know, still am.

Well, so this is, okay, so that's a great segue. This is why you're becoming a podcasting professional because you didn't even know it. But my next thing that I was going to get into with you was, especially the defense and sort of the different types of four checks you'd face and whether you'd prefer, you know, you're kind of traditional. Like, you know that when you go back to retrieve the puck, the guy coming in is probably going to finish his check. but you know that you'll have a play to make and you just take that hit as opposed to, you know, the more kind of modern day approach where it might be a little bit less sort of conventionally physical, but it's going to be a player who's going to use their speed and their smarts to kind of have an active stick and really kind of hound you that way and make you make a play with limited time and space.

And Vegas, that was their bread and butter, especially in their inaugural year, where they made that run to the cup final, where, like, especially that top line on Marsha So Carlson and Riley Smith, like, good luck getting the puck cleanly out of your defensive zone and through the neutral zone against those guys because they were just tenaciously as sort of a five-man unit really with whichever defensemen were out there, just sort of clogging everything up and causing so many quick turnovers and sort of using that frantic nature to their advantage to create chances. And so how do you feel about that as a defenseman in terms of whether you'd kind of prefer the physicality or whether you'd kind of like to shy away from the player who's going to make you work more with sort of a,

It might be a smaller player who skates a bit faster, but might make you work in different ways. I think I personally would invite the contact. I think when any time you can have a tell and know what a player is going to do, you're able to prepare for that play. If you're really going to put yourself in harm's way, you know,

maybe there's another way to solve that puzzle that is breaking out. And that is the conversation, like around Vegas that first year, I remember just how the pace at which they were going to come, very similar, Tampa for years, has had a, brutal defensive engagement. Like you knew one of the coaching points every time I've ever played against,

you know, Tampa was there's not a ton you can coach for against the rush because now it's going to happen so fast. And every single one guys are in different spots. And usually the mistake was already made up the ice. Like they've already got four guys and you've got two. There's only so much you can do. You know,

you can either hold the middle or kind of go at them and hope that they don't make enough plays in time for your other back checkers to get back. But one of the conversations we had was their defense are, extremely active down the wall. Like unless you're able to totally flip by those guys or exit throughout the middle, it's going to be tough to get out. You know, and especially if you think about, like,

I'm a right shot demon, like their left side, you know, with Sergachev, Coburn, Victor Headman. Like, you got to flick this puck 35 feet up in the air to get it over some of these guys, you know? So I think I would always rather know particularly what a player is going to do. do and I think that predictability helps me understand what my goal is going back when you kind of

don't know if a guy's going to play off you there's a little bit of a cat and mouse there it might be right you might be wrong and that's you know how skilled the game's got well and that's why i don't think it's any coincidence that they went out and specifically targeted this guy and why he had such success for them and it's your former teammate blake coleman where he fit really well into exactly what you're saying without to have a model of sort of that that functional physicality where he certainly lay the body and punish you that way but like his speed and his tenacity

and pairing him with Yanni Gord like that was like such a I imagine as opposing defense when that would be such an annoying combination to play against because you just never know what they're going to do but you know it's going to be kind of annoying for you trying to deal with them and getting the puck out of your zone well and certain teams have this DNA you saw Vegas go out in a quarter you know Mark Stone and

patch ready guys with elite sticks guys that are long you know big strong guys that yeah if they need to be physical they can but they're they're going to be smart and trying you know out poise or out out you know cat and mouse you uh boston you know their fourth line with wagner coralli and uh who else is my uh nordstrom who is there like that's a line they're not necessarily going to hit you but they're not going to not hit you like if if they have a great hit they'll take it you know wagner's a little bit more physical coralli but same thing where they just have this this buzzing nature where they're going to be able to get in and get into your hands your like your hands and your sticker of what's going to make the play.

Right. So if you can occupy a defenseman there, you've got an opportunity to stay in the zone. You know every second you stay there, you don't have to deal with a counterattack. You don't have to feel the rush against because everyone stopped and slow. And then ideally you're able to eventually tire these guys out

and change because no one's taking a, you know, no one's going for a change in the defensive zone. So you can guarantee you're going to play against the same five guys if you can just stay there. And you can almost guarantee that you can get guys on that are fresh coming from behind them if they'll commit to, changing the offensive zone. All right.

Last one. Favorite defense men to watch these days? Oh, God. I love Jared Spurgeon. He's someone I watch a lot, similar size, great skater. Ryan Ellis was a favorite all the way from, you know, his, his OHL days in Windsor. I wanted to play in Windsor, and then I almost did, and that was, you know, a story for another time.

I love, you know, Cal McCar. He's so explosive that, you know, there's just not a lot of team in that, you know, came in moving like him trying to think who else Drew Dowdy's still a classic like you can't forget the guys that have been you know in the top of their game for a long time Duncan Keith's a Chicago favorite

I just think he's so crafty and unorthodox in certain ways he does things all right well and Miro and Klinger I'll go with those two too yeah I play with those two guys and they were a treat too studs you play with a rookie Mero

I did and And, you know, that was, I was all excited for that one. I was playing pretty well and ended up, you know, getting hurt there. But we were playing, you know, 20 plus a night there by the end of it. And that was my goal. I recognized, you know, what a player he was. We'd go back to this primary, you know, complementary pairing thing.

And I knew, all right, if I can fit with this kid, like, and we can just be a good pair. Yeah. That's what the coach, you know, in his mind, that's what they're putting out there. If I can, you know, entrench myself and give the assistant coach some trust to put this pair out, we're golden. And it wasn't meant to be. Yeah. Well, he's, yeah, he's quite the player. I'm sure it makes life a lot easier for you as a defenseman when your partner can do all the stuff he can.

He's a stuff. He's a stud. He leads to. I don't think I've ever saw him, like, go down to his knees. Like, you know, a player is standing up and then we'll kind of throw their stick across their knees when they're tired. he's got such great glide and such good aerobic an aerobic system i don't think i saw him touch his knees once practice or game all right man um well we're gonna get out here i'll let you plug some stuff where can people check out your show what can they expect from that moving forward

i give them all the good stuff there i'm at the curious competitor podcast um on instagram at connor karek i'm on twitter at karek and i i love uh talking about the inertia of of getting on your own side. How can you, you know, use curiosity as a fuel to, you know, build the habits that eventually build you. That's what I talk about every day. So, awesome, man. If you're into that, come join us. You'll find a bunch of nerds like me. Well, keep at it. It's been really fun to see that journey blossom for you. I'm looking forward to seeing what's next. And thanks for taking the time to come chat, man. We'll have to do this again. Sent me. Dimitri, anytime. Glad we nailed it. Anytime. Anytime. Reach out. Appreciate it, man. All right, that's going to be

for today's episode of the Hockey Piedocast. Hopefully you enjoyed my chat with Connor Carrick. And if you did, I certainly recommend going and listening to his podcast, The Curious competitor with Connor Carrick, as he said. And if you did enjoy the show and you have been enjoying it, please consider taking a minute to go leave us a rating and review. It goes a long way. It's really easy to do.

You can just leave the five stars, but if you also got time and the energy and the appetite to do so, you can leave a little message there. letting us know what you like about the show, what it means to you. It's huge. It really helps the podcast out, but it also means a lot to me personally. I really appreciate everyone that's already done so and everyone that will do so after listening to this. So, yeah, that's going to be it for this week.

We're going to come back next week. We're going to keep doing some deep dives. We're going to do some more rebuildables. We're going to do, if you enjoy the one we did about the Detroit Red Wings with Prashon Dyer, we're going to do some of the other teams that, are requiring deep grand scale rebuilds and we're going to talk about what they should do. So we have that to look forward to and plenty of other offseason content, including the return of the watchables and other fun kind of random big picture philosophical stuff like we just did

with Connor. So hopefully you enjoyed that and hopefully you'll keep listening to the show as we work our way through this off season until games come back. which will hopefully be at some point down the road. So thanks for listening. Thanks for subscribing. Thanks for rating and reviewing. And we will be back soon.

Beocast with Dimitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovic and on SoundCloud at soundcloud. At soundcloud.com slash hockey p.ocast.