The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 37: The Kings Are Reclaiming Their Throne

Episode Date: December 16, 2015

We adopt the Los Angeles Kings, who are not only quickly distancing themselves from everyone else in the Pacific division but doing so by controlling 5-on-5 play at a historic rate. We also discuss the recent trade between the Blackhawks and Penguins, how no GM is immune from making bad decisions, and whether the Jets should aim to keep Dustin Byfuglien or Andrew Ladd (or potentially both). Every episode of this podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, and can also be streamed from our website. Make sure to not only subscribe so that you don’t miss out on any new shows as they’re released, but also take a minute to leave us a glowing review. If you’ve been enjoying the work we’ve been doing please also consider chipping in to help support the show (www.hockeypdocast.com/donate). There are a handful of housekeeping costs associated with producing the show that need to be covered, and every little bit helps. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Are you ready for the most ridiculous internet sports show you have ever seen? Welcome to React, home of the most outrageous and hilarious videos the web has to offer. So join me, Rocky Theos, and my co-host, Raiders Pro Bowl defensive end, Max Crosby, as we invite your favorite athletes, celebrities, influencers, entertainers in for an episode of games, laughs, and, of course, the funniest reactions to the wildest web clips out there. Catch React on YouTube, and that is React. R-E-A-X-X. Don't miss it. This podcast episode is brought to you by Coors Light.

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Welcome to the Hockey Pediocast. My name is the Nieter Filipovich. is a man who's grateful to still be alive. It's Travis Yost. Travis, he who survived his first coyote encounter, Yost. Almost became Travis Ghost. So we just found out in a three-minute free recording discussion that coyotes apparently exist in Vancouver, which I didn't know. They certainly exist in the city of Las Vegas because I'm here and I just got out of my car. and there were two coyotes surrounding my car. And at first I was like, they want us to record about the coyotes on the PEOC.

But I was like, we did them two weeks ago. It must be about my writing. No, we literally did the coyotes on the last podcast we did. They just want more. They just keep coming. They send their goons out, little hit squad just circling my car. They're just sending it. It's a little threat.

It's like when the mob used to put a fish in newspaper and send it to you or something like that, right? That's the same thing, right? Well, I mean, John Scott's at a level beyond, uh, carrying out tasks like this now, now that he might be an All-Star. So they're sending the guys even below John Scott. Oh, my God. So this is the AAA squad.

And then if we don't listen to them, then John Scott's going to be sitting backseat in my car. Yeah, basically. Before we get going, we should kind of acknowledge the feedback we got to the last show we did. I feel like for those that haven't listened to it, it was a marathon episode. That was definitely the longest we ever gone. Dude, I had laryngitis at the end of it. Yeah, it was like 70 minutes or something.

And it was just vitriol-fueled. and maybe we should just shelf angry Dimitri and Travis and just bring them out every once in a while when it's only like really warranted. But yeah, the people liked it. Apparently it was a crowd pleaser. And the funny thing is actually had more than one well-known media guy kind of reach out to me and just kind of clear his name

and make sure that he wasn't on our list, which I thought was pretty funny. Yeah, so I did not have that interaction. So I guess people are just either terrified of me or they like you more. I'm going to go with the latter probably. Wow. They don't want to upset the case.

I don't. No, no. All right. So let's talk about this daily Scuderia trade because we haven't really had any trades to discuss. We spend so much time on this podcast, just making up wild rumors that will probably never happen. And now we actually have a trade. So I feel like we should spend at least five minutes on it. So my five minutes on this trade are as follows.

Even really good teams can do really dumb things. and it's okay to say that. It's okay to admit that. I feel like when you get to the level of success, like the Blackhawks have had, the Kings have had, the Red Wings have had, especially those three fan bases, there is a, not a, not the majority,

just a segment of those fan bases where no matter what they do, it was the right move. And that's like I get how you get to that, you know, level, right? Your team is always in the playoffs. They're always competing for a championship. and it just feels like they're doing everything right.

And this gets back to my point that I've made on prior podcasts, and I am emphatic about it. You just, no one's going to be flawless as a GM. It's literally impossible. The only way you can be a very successful team is preserving a really good, good to bad deal, trade, free agent decision ratio, whatever you want to call it, whether it's three good moves to one bad one or four good moves to one bad one. Right. The thing is, you just.

You can admit that this was a catastrophic deal from the Blackhawks perspective. And I had people, I had Blackhawks fans reach out to me and like, you don't get it. It was about cap space. And I'm like, no, you don't get it. It's not about cap space. I get that the initial deal is because what I'm getting out of here is this thing got botched initially in the Patrick Sharp trade. So they acquire Trevor Daly. And everyone was like, that's not going to work out.

And I actually think he hasn't been awful for the Blackhawks. But like, I just don't think he's been very good. And I don't think Joe Klovo likes him very much. And so now you get to a point where they've already sold 80 cents on a dollar for Sharp, right? Okay, they were clearing cap space. They had to bite a bullet. But then now they're selling 80 cents on a dollar on a defenseman who's already not very good. And they get maybe the worst defenseman left in the entire national hockey league.

So, like, again, and it's like, okay, well, it's about cap space. correct me if I'm wrong, but after the trade, Rob Scudery, is he in the lineup or not? So it's, I mean, this isn't just a cap space clearing move if this guy's going to play, right? Right. Yeah, there's this appeal to authority where it's like, oh, well, you know, the Blackhawks have been crazy successful over the past couple years. So clearly, Stan Bowman knows what he's doing. Like, how dare you kind of question his moves? And it's like, yes, both those things can be true.

Like, they can have been successful in Stan Bowman is a smart GM. who's made a lot of really calculated moves that have looked good. But, like, you can still, he's not, like, you know, just, like, we're allowed to criticize when it's warranted. And this is one of those instances where definitely kind of backfired on them. And now, I mean, from Chicago's perspective, this trade, there's nothing really to analyze, right? Like, they clear just over a million in cap space. They're, I guess they might, like, buy out Scudery this summer.

Then maybe bury him in the H.L. like he's on the books for 2.25 million next year and the buyout's pretty reasonable for that but like if they actually intend on playing him like that's it's not a that's not a recipe for success like today in his debut they paired him with uh rooseval and that's a glacial pairing if i've ever seen one and i don't think that they should go back to that one too many more times so i don't like i ultimately don't think that the rob scudery angle of this is going to wind up mattering unless he continues to be used and then then we'll have a discussion again but i think the daily point is interesting because for pittsburgh like they had to do something they couldn't just keep like trotting out

ian cole and david warsovsky and being like yeah you guys play 20 something minutes and let's close our eyes and hope things get better and they don't have very many assets to work with to kind of try and write the ship in that regard so i kind of like this move for them i mean obviously you mentioned Trevor Daly, like, definitely has his shortcoming as a player. I mean, he's not a very good defensive guy. And I don't know, like this year, he sort of fell out of favor, I guess. I mean, his possession numbers are good, but that's mostly because Quenvo was just like sheltering him beyond any reasonable kind of expectations. And last year, he scored a lot of goals, but that was mostly like percentage driven. And, and his possession had really cratered that year. So, like,

I don't know. I don't think he's a great player by any means. But for Pittsburgh, I feel like it's just like literally anyone with a pulse would have been a massive upgrade. The most important thing, there's three things you touched on that I think are worth addressing. The first one actually isn't something you addressed, but in the middle of that very eloquent point, it sounds like someone else just died in Vancouver. It's a probably coyotea time. Literally the last recording, the local coroner had to pick up in the middle of our podcast and he had another body on the slab, and it sounds like there's another one coming.

That's point number one. Point number two is, from a Pittsburgh perspective, this deal makes obvious sense. The curious aspect of it is, and I guess we can't really speak to it with too much authority because we don't know. But I really wonder why they weren't this aggressive. And the reason why I bring it up is I don't really think that there's much that they're giving away here. They're giving away Rob Skadere, you literally the least valuable asset on the entire roster for a defenseman who can play in the NHL. I'm not going to hold up Trevor Daly to any real standard, but he's just a guy who can play here. That's something, right?

And it's curious that they waited until they fired their head coach to pull this off. That's one of the big takeaways that I noted from this. But again, the other one is I wonder from Chicago's perspective. So back to my, we kind of both touched on the Capspace perspective from the Chicago perspective. I wonder, why didn't, if Capspace was so critically important to the team, they either way overvalued Trevor Daly from the initial point of that trade. Right. Or they just targeted the wrong thing. And this is the other thing that I had brought up where it was, okay, so Trevor Daley. failed that's not really on them, you know, people miss all the time. And I'm like, that's fair.

But, you know, if they didn't love the player, why couldn't they acquire futures? And I'm not, I'm not equating Trevor Daly to getting another, like a first round pick from Dallas and that Patrick Sharp deal. But it's totally reasonable to me that they could have went and got futures in terms of picks or prospects or whatever you want to call them. And that doesn't cost any cap space. And that would have been even probably bigger incremental savings at the NHL level. So the first part of this miscalculation from Chicago's perspective was the initial trade. And it's not even so much about Patrick Sharp as it is you have a perceived value of a top six winger and you got back essentially nothing at this point, right? Because now they've taken Trevor Daly the core

piece of this return and they've turned him into Rob Skadari, who is horrific. Who is a million dollars in Caspers? Yeah. And Ryan Garbit, who's like, okay, Ryan Garbert's a fine player, but you can find Ryan Garbut on any NHL team right now. So it's a very, a very perplexing move by an organization who generally gets things right. And look, I'm not, I've sat on this podcast, I told you Chicago is a pretty sensible organization to me. I like what Tampa Bay does. I can't explain the Ryan Callahan deal.

Like, these things happen, but like, it's okay if Black Hawk fans embrace that this was pretty shitty from top to bottom. Well, my question is, like, why didn't they just bring back Johnny O'Dooie? Do you think they'd like kind of miscalculated the market for him and thought that he'd get either way more term or way more salary than he wound up getting? Because he basically got exactly like what Johnny O'Duya was on, what Trevor Daly was on the books for. It's a fair point. Two years, 3.75 million. I feel like they easily could have just like fit him back in and kept him and Jalmersen together.

Like I don't understand why they didn't. It's either that or they thought they were buying a player that had a rough. season in Dallas and they thought he was salvageable. So you could also get from the perspective of Chicago just miscalculated on Trevor Daly period. They said, okay, we're going to flip a valuable asset here in Patrick Sharper. He had a defenseman back coup. Yeah, he's whole. He's got holes. He's leaky from time to time, but we think he can fit in our system. And, you know, those moves happen in with every organization. You take a risk and it blows up in your face. And it just happens. But the thing that kills me is, so you have an initial trade. Really, this thing is an amazing deal if you think about it.

If you step outside the box for a minute, because you have an initial trade that kind of blows up in your face. And you're left to say, okay, we still need to clear some cash space, but we're also contending for Stanley Cup. So we need to keep the core roster at a very high point, a very high mark. And you flip him for Rob Skidari. I don't know that there aren't like, how, how? How many HL defensemen do you think we could name right now that are probably better today than Rob Skidari? And I'm not killing Rob Skidari. It's just the reality of where he is in his career. And it's like, he's not an NHL player anymore, realistically. But here's the thing. You're either, you're going to have to carry him on the roster this year. And I'm sure he's going to play minutes.

And that's the other part of this is that if it was a pure, okay, it's another cap space situation, fine, whatever, I get it. But Rob Skadari is not going to sit on the bench. He's not going to be in the press box. He's going to be playing minutes. He's not, maybe he's not, maybe he's not, I don't think he's going to get 25 minutes a night, but even if he's out there for 15, 16, 17 minutes, and your coach thinks he's a valuable penalty killer and whatever a limited understanding they have of Rob Skadari, he's probably 10 times less than that.

So that's going to be something very interesting to watch. Right. And we should mention one final thing to kind of put a ball on this. Someone fairly recently, I feel like in a past show, we were talking about the smartest front offices in the league and the best GMs, and someone sent over a note about Jims, Jim Nills trading history and it's pretty good.

Like I feel like at this point, if he calls you and offers you a trade of some sort or is like fishing around, you should just like hang up because like this is the second time now where he did it with Jason Spezza as well, right? Where he sort of like capitalized in a situation that wasn't going to really work itself out and everyone knew there needed to be some sort of resolution. And he put together this like package of assets which either the team receiving them overvalued or like I don't know what happened there. But I mean like if you look at if you look at the stuff he gave up for

Rezpeza. It's a joke, honestly. You said it. That's all I'm going to say, but I think you said it pretty well there. Yeah. All right. Let's talk a little bit about the Jets because I think that today, Elliot Freeman, in 30 Thoughts, kind of broke down the Bufflin, Truba, and Ladd components of it and their demands and sort of the market for them. And let's start with Bufflin, who I think is the most interesting one because, I mean, we've ranted and raved about him on this podcast. Everyone knows how we feel about him. He's one of the most unique players in the league. And he's one of the guys that, the few guys out there that might be available via trade that could like really move the needle

for a team. And I look at the landscape right now. And I just don't really see how the the jets can realistically give him what he's looking for. I mean, it's not that he's looking for an unrealistic offer. Apparently, he's looking for what Seabrook went for, which was eight years, 6.75 per. But I mean, he's already, he's turning 31 and you just wonder like what he's going to look like when he's in his mid-30s, honestly. Yeah, so I've, one of the things that kind of flies under the radar with this Jets organization is it's not like set in stone that they can spend to the cap. Like that's, that's still very much in the air.

I've heard the internal budget stuff kicked around in Winnipeg in the past. And I always kind of keep it in the back of my mind just like I do with teams like Anaheim and Ottawa and the Islanders where, you know, you can have a cap set it. And this is like that second group. So like we know Arizona and Florida are never going to spend to the cap. But like this is that group where they can go up and down, but they're never going to get near that threshold, even though they probably could.

They're probably in that group where they can probably spend $1,000, $4 million-ish off the cap. And like that's, that's an additional restraint. And I think that's something to be cognizant about when you're looking at this jet situation because they have a lot of money in all these deep potential deals tied up. and you've kind of got to be, you kind of have to recognize the fact that their salary cap expectations are different than a Toronto or a Montreal or whoever. It makes things a bit tighter for them and it's kind of unfortunate because for the most part, I really like this Winnipeg team and I love their system.

And when I say system, I mean really the horde of prospects they have coming along. Right. Which is an interesting counterpoint though, right? Because you talk a lot about Dustin Bufflin and how much money he's going to command, whether it's from Winnipeg or someone else, is just a dominant defenseman right now. And look, everyone knows that when he's 35, 36, he's not going to be the same caliber player. But you buy on him now and you're going to get a couple of very good years. And it's a tough spot for Winnipeg because they are good enough to be a playoff team. I think we saw that last year. But at the same time, they also have at least one point of leverage, which is they're pretty good back there on the blue line. They're one of those handful of teams that when you look at them, you don't say, oh, they need a defenseman. It's, you know, they can build out their roster elsewhere. I think they're actually pretty adequate back there.

And a lot of that is because they have Bufflin. But like, I think they could, I guess my point is this. I think they could realistically lose Bufflin, address his loss internally and through a combination of a cheaper UFA. and I think they would be okay. But at the same time, it's very much a, I am very 50-50 on this from the Winnipeg perspective

because I think he's super valuable. I think his contract is probably, is probably going to be dangerous on the back end because I don't know that his game lends itself well to where he's going to be in a few years and there's a lot of mileage on that body. But like, again, it's a tough decision for a GM in a league. I genuinely think this is the single point that gets glossed over way too much from what we do.

And I am as guilty of it as anyone. These GMs are working now, not four years from now. And yes, it's important to keep the future in mind. But if they don't get to the future, it doesn't really matter. Because if they're termed after two years of terrible play or terrible performance, it doesn't matter that they made a great cap saving move in 2015 when they're looking for a job in 2017. And that's kind of why in some ways when I think a lot of these coin flips, GMs veer towards let's sign this guy because they're playing for now.

And I recognize that. And in a super high turnover industry, like I think we all media especially needs to be cognizant of that because that drives a lot of what GMs do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when I had Craig Custin's on the podcast most recently, he kind of pointed out that like I was getting on his case about supporting the Abdel Cater deal somewhat. And he was like, listen, man, like, you talk to these guys. And no one's going to, you know, be congratulating a GM for walking away from the table and saving that caps aies. They're going to be like, well, what did you do with that money?

And how'd you replace that player? And it's easy to say, okay, well, don't pay this guy. But, like, what are you going to do with that money to end? Like, how are you going to replace that guy's impact to what your team's doing? And you're right. I think that the Jets are one of the few teams out there that could realistically stay afloat on the back end with Buffalo Bufflin there, but like, that's a pretty, pretty big loss for them. And from Bufflin's perspective, I mean, we mentioned he's 31 and he plays a ton of minutes for that. Yeah, he does. And

you know what? He has a lot of leverage because he hasn't made, like looking at his contract history, he hasn't made that much money, relatively speaking in his career. And this is obviously, like, the one last time he's going to get a, like a massive long-term deal. And I'll never I'm never going to blame a player for fully cashing in and looking after himself. And you look at the UFA market for a defenseman this year and there's Keith Yandel and there's Alex Goligowski and then there's a bunch of guys who are in their mid to late 30s who are shells of what they used to be. And Bufflin's one of the few guys that a team out there that is really desperate for a

defenseman and has money can target to move the needle. So like I have no doubt that he's going to get a massive, massive contract if he goes to free agency. Yeah. I mean, I don't really dispute that at all. He's going to get paid in a big way, whether it's from Winnipeg or someone else. Now, the question I think you were kind of alluding to is,

if you say no to Bufflin, you have to have a plan B. Because, again, it's not even like this GM, this front office is forward-looking in the sense that they even care about three or four years from now. The fact is that this team is already pretty competent. Like, I like this roster, the general build of it. I think they can replace some guys internally. but at the same time, there are expectations that this team should go to the postseason. And if Bufflin's out of the picture, great.

I guess that means other guys that we're going to speak to in a second are getting retained. But then you have to just find your answer on the back end. And like you said, not a ton of options out there, although I would say, and I can't emphasize this enough either. I don't know that defensemen are valued very well in this league. And that's why the trade market is always an interesting place. If you're a GM, if you can identify the right talent who is, uh, quote, underperforming quote, um, that's your, that's probably the route I would go.

Well, I think it would be a massive miscalculation on, on the Jets part. If, if they stick with Bufflin past the deadline and then he walks in free agency. Awful. You can't like that's, that, you know, that's a fireball offense, honestly, in my opinion. Like, you have to know, like, whether he's going to resign with you or not. And if he's not, like, he's going to get you a, a pretty. pretty nice little return at the trade deadline from one of a handful of teams out there. So do you feel the same way about Stephen Stamco's?

That those two teams should make that trade? Well, so I'm just, no, no, no, yeah, Stamco's from Bufflin. No. So my point, I 100% agree with you about Bufflin and Winnipeg. But how do you approach it from Tampa Bay's perspective when you have a player, the caliber of Stephen Stamco's, and a legitimate Stanley Cup talent? roster today. See, that's a, that's a tougher situation.

It's trickier, it's trickier. And I think they're much closer to winning the cup than the jetts are, right? Correct. And that's, and I think, and again, I still would say in an ideal universe, if you are pretty sure that Stamcoast is going to walk for, and we've heard interesting rumors that him and Cooper don't get along. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of curious stuff floating around the past couple weeks. And it coming from very credible places, too, which I find fascinating. But, um, from Tampa Base. perspective, that is a tougher question because there is no reason that team can't emerge from

the Eastern Conference. And even if you're pretty sure that Stephen Stamco is going to walk, that's a tough trade to make. If you're pretty much saying, yeah, we can compete, but we're going to trade away our best player and we're just going to flip coins in the playoffs and try and get maybe out of the first round. And that's a tough pill to swallow if you're a GM or a coach of a team who had legitimate Stanley Cup expectations coming into the year. Right. This is the thing that it's kind of worth pointing out. It's like it's really tough and it's an important GM skill to be able to like kind of take a step back and realistically and objectively and objectively and objectively evaluate where your team's at.

Right. Like for Kevin Shevold-Dayoff, he sort of needs to look at this landscape and like it's a tricky balance because last year was the first time they made made the playoffs since they returned. and obviously the city of Winnipeg was like really pumped up about that and kind of rallying behind the team and you want to keep that momentum going with the fans but like you have to look at the situation around you and be like well this central division is pretty crazy and like even if we make the playoffs chances are we're probably going to lose in the first round like i don't know i think that unless you decide listen we're going to pay off and keep him which is a totally reasonable decision to make you have to kind of just like get a couple of future assets and maybe not even like large long-term future assets, but assets that can step into your lineup right now and are under contract next year and the year after and kind of rebuild on the fly that way because like it would just be catastrophic, honestly, to let Buffalo and walk for nothing. Uh, yeah, um, should we do Andrew Ladd now? Yeah, let's do lad. Okay, so he's apparently asking for six years, roughly seven million per, which, I don't know, like, Friedman made it sound like they're really close. Like, they'd apparently

come to terms with the six, with the six years. And now it's just, the matter of the money. And I don't know, like, that's pretty pricey for me. Like, I completely understand that Andrew Ladd is sort of like the heart and soul of that team. And he's a really good player. But I don't know, he's also entering his 30s now. And I'm kind of like, I shudder at the, to think what he's going to look like when he's 34, 35 years old. Can I drop a, can I drop a sources say on this? Yeah, absolutely. Sources say, no, on a very serious note, I have heard the same thing. And I would definitely

trust Elliott Friedman over me any day of the week, but I have heard that Winnipeg and Andrew Ladd are not too far apart. I would say that the way you described it is how it's been described to me. If I was a betting man and I was getting even money on Ladd or Bufflin staying, I would dump the bank account on Ladd versus Bufflin. The one caveat would be this. They could still theoretically retain both and they could still theoretically retain neither. But to my point, if it was one or the other, I very much get the sense that it's going to be lad. I don't know if that's the right decision to be perfectly honest. And I am a, and I like Andrew Ladd quite a bit, but I don't know that they are, if I had to choose one or the other, call me crazy. I might go buffling.

No, I don't think that's crazy at all. I think I'm pretty, pretty firmly in that camp. Like, I don't know, I love Andrew Ladd as a player and he kind of brings, like, it's interesting, right? he brings all those intangibles that people love, but he's also good by everything, right? I have to say this. I have to say this. People say, this is another player where they say,

you can't measure this player because of intangibles. They show up in his numbers. He is Patrice Bergeron-Light. They show there. He is a good player. He's a very impactful player. Yeah, we talked about this last time where it's like, if this guy's intangibles and all these qualities that the guys like are,

are, you know, so, like, real and there, then we're going to see that translate to helping his team win. And that's definitely the case with Ladd. But like, I don't know. I think that he would be much easier to replace in my mind than Buflin. And the price tag is like, sounds like it's fairly similar for both guys.

And I don't know, I have similar concerns about how they're both going to age and they're sort of in a similar, like they're in a very equal part of their career. So, like, I don't know. I definitely am in the camp that I would keep Bufling. and try to trade lad, but that's obviously a tough thing to do. And I'm also curious, like, I feel like Bufflin would probably garner a way better package

in return and a trade at the deadline, wouldn't he? Yes. I will say this. They is my belief slash understanding that they is not an anti-Bufflin thing so much as it is a pro-lad thing. They very much feel like that core, that component. of the team, what's underpinning what they can do in the positive direction is driven by him, whether it's leadership or talent on ice or a combination of all of the above.

And like, I get it. He does check a lot of those boxes, but I just feel his contract has the possibility to be a bit more poisonous than Dustin Bufflins. And further to that point, I would also echo the fact that these types of defensemen, the type of impact defenseman that Dustin Bufflin is is much harder to find, at least on the first pairing talent level than a player like Andrew Ladd is.

So that's, I don't know, I guess, this is not a very clear-cut decision for Winnipeg. Like, this is a very difficult spot that they're in. Right. And I sympathize because I am sure that they are spending nights agonizing over what they're going. going to do here. And what really complicates the issue is one of the first

things you said, the division is a gaunt. They're okay, maybe even teetering towards good on some nights. But that's just not good enough in that division right now. St. Louis, Dallas is better. St. Louis is better.

Nashville is better. Those three for sure. Minnesota, most nights is better. Now, that puts them pretty behind the curve here because you've got to least four teams that are objectively better than you. And I don't know. It's a very tough spot for this organization.

And you don't want to see both go because then you're, you know, you're left doing the, okay, well, we're on the come up. Look at all these players coming through the system. And I get the sense also that there is a feeling that the fan base is just kind of, it's an expectation driver, right? Like there's not, they don't want to see this team circle back into, oh, you know, we're going to rebuild very quickly. And even though I don't think they would have to rebuild much at all,

I just think there's so much good young talent on this team. It's still a tricky spot because you shave Aladdin Bufflin off your roster. You're going to be worse, period. No, that's, that's very true. I think this is going to be one of those subjects that we're going to spend many more podcasts talking about. So I guess it's good for us because it provides us on material. But yeah, I don't know. I don't think there's any right answer.

I guess you kind of have to like, you can't really evaluate it until you know, like, all the, like, just like surveying the entire landscape and being like, all right, how likely are we to sign both these guys? And then inversely, like, what are, what are teams offering us for them via trade around the deadline? You kind of have to go from there, and it just might be a pure value play. So, I don't know, let's move on to the Kings. Let's talk about them because we did say we were going to adopt them. And conveniently enough, you wrote about them today in pretty good detail.

So, but the thing is, is, like, realistically, who reads anymore in 2015? So I feel like we should just, like, kind of repeat all that. We should just do like an audio recording of your article, honestly. So I've had a very good run of like, I'll write an article about a potential trade or a free agent signing or whatever. And then it happens like within the next 72 hours. I had a really good run this summer of that. And it makes me look smart, even though it's mostly by chance, almost certainly all by chance. Yet, however, however, caveat, I have had some unfortunate luck with writing,

this team is really good. And then they just fall on their face. literally that night or a player, I say, man, he is playing unbelievably, and then he just goes through this 12-game scoreless streak. I wrote about the Kings and basically how they very much feel like those Stanley Cup contending caliber teams that we saw in years past, and they were very much there. And there's a couple of drivers there. But, of course, I wrote about this in it.

Literally, as I submit, like four hours later, I'm watching Ottawa score one of every four I want a goal on every four shots. And John Quick is just John Quick and as usual. Right. So, no, but like, look, the reality is the Kings are probably the most dominant five-on-five team again this year. They are consistently, they're probably the most system-dedicated team in the league, I would think. And sometimes it is grading slash boring to watch. They will dump the puck in just mercilessly.

They will work to retrieve it. If they don't get it, they're recovering in the neutral zone. They're going to defend their asses off. And it's not sometimes super enjoyable to watch, but man, is it effective? And they just grind the hell out of teams. And I think that that gets into a better point about how, like, you do need the system and adherence to the system across the board from all your players. But at the same time, I think there's an interesting question about whether it's system-driven

their success or system-driven because the talent fits that system. And I think that's an interesting point because I don't know that that King's team could play like the Blackhawks or the Sharks in years past where they're super controlled entry heavy and very weak, let's say, on the forecheck and not as aggressive, you know, getting sending guys in deep. And like, I don't know. I just don't. I think they have the player personnel that fits that type of system. They beat the hell out of teams five on five. Yeah, they're going to keep shooting six and a quarter percent because I think that system lends itself to poor shooting percentages. but they win the differential so big and so consistently that they can pretty much smooth out

shakier than average shooting percentages because they're just, they're out shooting a two to one. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I mean, it's crazy. They're 57.3 score adjusted rate at 5-1-5 is the seventh best we've seen since 2005. Yeah, one point to that, I have to interject and make this point. I can't, I'm like 99% sure. I think I looked at last 15 earlier this morning, and I think they were teetering on 59% which is absurd yeah i mean there's those like late 2000s red wings teams which were like around

58 59 which is insane and we haven't really seen that in years so no they're they're remarkable and i like the point you made about kind of how they're like a death by a thousand cuts team and they just like sort of choke out any breathing room you have as an as an opposing team and eventually they're just going to wear you down and and make you play the game that they want to play and it's a fascinating point you make about the personnel and and the job and the job Darryl Sutter's done because, I mean, here in Vancouver, I've kind of lived it where people here look at the kings and they go, all right, this is like the brand of hockey that's played in the West. You have to have these like big bodies who can compete with them. And I think that's sort of like

a misguided evaluation of what makes the Kings as good as they are. Like, yeah, these guys are are big guys, but that's, that's sort of like a happy coincidence for them. Like, the fact of the matter is that guys like Anzee Kopitar and Jeff Carter, for example, are like, just like freaks of nature who are really, really good hockey players and they're all so big. But like, you shouldn't kind of look at, look at the size part and conflate that with the other stuff they do well. And I don't know, like, Daryl Sutter does a fantastic job. You sort of, uh, it's one thing to have the chess pieces, but it's another thing to like utilize them properly and this sort of dump and chase style they have

is is a type of thing that I think is like pretty unique to them honestly. Yeah, one of the points that when Eric Tolski, when he wrote that unbelievable research piece a couple years ago about the value of the controlled entry, I don't remember if this was a conversation I had with him directly or something that we flushed out subsequently. But one of the points I raised was that I thought his takeaways were so important in that controlled entries matter so much.

They generate more shots, generate more offense, generate more goals. But I think he, I believe he made the important distinction that this isn't going to be uniform across the board. So it's going to be, there will be changes in modifications based on player personnel and teams and whatever. So maybe optimally you have this super entry heavy team and they're flying all over the ice and they look like that Red Wings 07 team where you can never get the puck from them.

But maybe the Kings are just an exception to the rule because I just don't know that they'd be able to replicate that success. Like if they played the exact Red Wings slash Black Hawk system of six, seven, eight years ago, I don't think they would be as good at five on five. I truly don't. I just don't think they have the player personnel for it, especially their depth forwards, which I think are underrated, especially from a forechecking perspective.

But even their top line, like a guy like Anjikopatar, He can play any game you ask him. So he's on first team all yost for sure. He is my first team all yos center. But once you get past him and maybe a couple of others, there are a lot of guys that are just like two-way grinders. Like they're versatile. They can play in in basically any situation.

They're not great shooters. But there's not many weak defensive players on the weak defensive forwards on the roster either. They've got a really, really good first pairing. they've got competent blue liners beyond the first pairing. The way the roster is built out, one, is an important takeaway, but two, I just,

I think it's an interesting discussion to have if this team totally overhauled its system and played an entirely different way than what we've grown accustomed to. Would they be nearly as effective, better, or worse? I don't think they would be. And maybe that's partly because I just don't believe

you can get much better than what they're doing right now. So maybe I have a, a biased opinion for the sake of I just watch them and I'm like, man, it's going to be hard to improve on this. But doesn't it feel like that? Yeah. No, it definitely does. And I think it's a, it's a fool, like the league is a copycat league, right? And we hear that all the time. But it's like a fool's errand to try and replicate what the kings have done here. Like what you're going to wind up doing is just like overpaying and overspending on a bunch of lumbering guys who aren't nearly as good at hockey as the guys the kings have and you're going to wind up losing to them

if you try to play that that way against them. Like, I don't know, just one of those things where it's, it's the beauty of sports, where it's like the perfect chess pieces have come in hand with, like, the system and the coach. And I don't know, all you can do, I guess, is just like marvel at it. That's just the way it is, honestly.

But like, let's talk about Kopitar, honestly. Yeah, we need to. We need to. So he is, again, my only, so if I had a, my first team all yost, there's like two, there's two vote getters who've gotten all the votes for me. And one would be Eric Carlson and the other would be

Anj Coppatar. And the rest, it's like a split mixed vote. It's very close. But those two are on the roster. Right. And I feel like it's worth pointing out. Like, Anzee Copatar really is what Jonathan Tays' biggest fans think Jonathan Taze is. Like, he does everything well. And you have

to wonder, like, if he were Canadian, just like, what the sort of dialogue around him would be. But he's remarkable. And he's a, UFA this summer and I'm kind of curious that A, it's taken them this long to iron out a deal and B, I was looking at his numbers and there's no doubt that, you know, even if he takes a little bit of a step back over the next couple seasons, like there's so much room for him to fall and still be an amazingly useful player. But I'm like wondering what, he already has a lot of miles

on those legs and in that body. I'm wondering as he approaches his 30s, like we just talked about this with Bufflin and Lass. I don't know, like his rate stats have all been sort of dipping for a couple years now, and I'm kind of curious to see how he's going to age as a player. So this actually ties into the larger discussion we need to have about the Kings. So the rate stats is a very interesting point. So too is the fact that L.A. now for almost two and a half years shoots like 6% of five-on-five. So it is impossible to separate those two.

And so this could be a chicken and the egg situation, right? Maybe it's Copatar and their top line and their top pairing that are just poorer than average shooters. Or it could be the fact that the system they play does not lend itself well to shooting 7.8% at 5 on 5.5. I would suspect that it's the latter. But I think that is what you're seeing. Look, his underlying numbers are just so ridiculously good year over year. I kind of am. I have to be honest, I'm not concerned about his counting numbers.

I have to be perfectly honest. And I think it's almost exclusively system-driven. So, again, I am very much, really, I am genuinely open to the discussion of whether L.A., let's say this year it falls apart again or at some point, and they fall short of their goals or expectations. And people want to discuss about potential tweaks to the system and maybe becoming more of a Chicago-esque caliber-style team. I am more than open to having that discussion. I don't think that you can talk about points with this team in the same way that you can with most other teams, because I think the way they play just lends itself to very low-scoring games. Yeah, well, that's fair.

But this raises an interesting question from my perspective, which is, do you think, because this is always a very controversial subject, what estimating, if you could estimate, really's true shooting talent, based on what you know, what would you set it at? Like, I don't think they're a 6% team, but I don't know that I'd be willing to go more than 7% just based on the way they've played over the past couple of years. And that's, like, there's goals in there that they're losing. Right. Well, you have to factor in.

Like, we can't overdo it with the whole system thing just because, like, we've seen it for so long now. And it's just like anything we've seen anywhere else in the league where, like, you have to kind of recalibrate your expectations. But I don't, I've never, I haven't seen anything from any of like their main guys in particular that would lead me to believe that they're worse than average shooters for some reason. So like I definitely think there, there has to be some credence to what you're talking about with the system in this regard. So the other half of that is obviously what they do on the defensive end. So John Quick is just not a good starting goaltender.

I will debate this from at any time, anywhere with any king stand. and Lord knows they will debate this subject. But they managed to get by. Look, I'm not saying he's horrible. They manage, a lot of what they do, though, is managing to get by by the shot volume against is just absurdly low every single game. So John Quick is your prototypical,

gives not a ton of goals against per game, but his save percentages are consistently middling. And that's because he's not seeing nearly the same shot volume as basically any other goaltender in the league, but he's stopping it in the average or slightly. below average rate and I wonder how much their system is also paying dividends in that respect, right? Because part of what I think their system is is we're going to dump the puck in like maniacs and we're going to try and recover it. And if we do, God bless you because we're going to generate shots

like crazy. But if you guys can actually get the puck and break it out, we're going to already be set up in the neutral zone and we're going to defend like hell and harass puck carriers and squeeze them into those tight areas along the boards and try and force turnovers. And generally, do get into our zone. We're going to try and keep you as best we can to the outside. And I know that's a common refrain that basically everyone tries to think that their team does keep teams well, you know, to the outside. But that's, Colorado and Toronto, you're not doing that. I think L.A. might be able to do that. Again, I'm not talking very large level. I'm talking a sliver of what they're doing. But I think they are probably a better than average defensive team. And I think

where they lose in shooting percentage, they probably pick up in goals against, if that makes sense? Right. Well, okay, I was kind of hoping we wouldn't spend a lot of time on Jonathan Quick because, like, I was going to,

I was hoping we were going to escape by there and then I was going to commend us for growing as people and not falling into this debate. But, like, it's such a fascinating thing because you hear, like, a lot of people that are really, like, educated, intelligent hockey minds that just like can't seem to get on board with the fact that quick is sort of an average goalie. And I'm just like wondering why that is.

Like it's not it's not just like one or two people and you're like, oh, well, these people are being blinded by flashy saves and stuff. Like it's there's such a large sample of of really bright individuals that kind of can't get past that stuff. That like it just makes me wonder what's really going on there, honestly. Well, he got hit with Mark Andre Fleury syndrome, which is. You have just this ridiculous stretch of playoff goaltending, and you basically single-handedly carry your team in that run. And Mark Andre Fleury had it. He actually had it in the year prior to winning the Stanley Cup,

if I remember correctly. And then he had a solid Stanley Cup repeat. And now he's actually a really good goalie. Right, yeah, but it took four years to get there, right? And so he had that, like, he's had that, like, weird rebound. But if you remember, for years with Mark Andre Fleury, Penguins fans would come out and say, look, you're wrong about him.

He's just having a down year. or you're wrong about him, the system's killing him. It would just be a lot of post hoc explainers away. This is why he's struggling. And, you know, for years, basically for four or five years, we saw Mark Andre Fleary, very average, very average compared to your normal starting goaltender in the NHL. I think we're seeing that a lot with Jonathan Quick.

It's just a tad more recent, right? So he had this ridiculous run. He's actually won a couple of Stanley Cups now. And look, there's no one denying that first run he had through the Stanley Cup was as good of goaltending as I've ever seen. All season really honestly. Yeah, that's just the reality of the situation is he was unbelievable that year. But you can make that point and then still say, yeah, he hasn't been that great since.

And like, I don't understand what's debatable about that point, right? Like, you just, you can pick, run down the list of goaltenders around the league. It's a pretty long list of names of goalies who have objectively outplayed him over the past few years. And that's, like, no one's saying that Quick is absolutely killing them. He's clearly not. He actually has some really nice games. And when he's on, he looks great. But, like, he's a very average goaltender by NHL standards.

And that's the only point of concern I really have with this team because I don't see them losing. The way the Pacific Division is shaped up, like we were, I think we were both pretty high on L.A. Just, I think we had them either one or two in the division. I can't really remember. Maybe we had them two. Two after the box, I think. Yeah, that's right. I was really high in Anahim.

I think you were two, but not. maybe not as much as me. And they've been a, they've been a disappointment, Anaheim. That's just the reality of it. And even if they recover, as we, I think we both expect them to, I don't know that they're going to get to the point where they could beat the Kings. I mean, this Kings team is a machine from top to bottom. And to beat the Kings, you basically have to match them at five on five very close to it. And you got to have the goaltending advantage. And that's the other part where I struggle with the ducks is I don't necessarily know that they have a goaltending advantage over the Kings. And that's, That's the tricky part.

So if you were a team like, I don't know, let's go with Vancouver and you had Roberto Luongo in net a couple of years ago. I would say, yeah, I'm pretty sure you've got a goaltending advantage. But, you know, Vancouver traded away all their goaltending talent. And that division is basically dire. If you actually think about it, that division is dire of goaltending talent right now compared to some of the other divisions. I mean, look at the West in general, right?

Like there's no team. How did that happen, by the way? I don't know. Like, is Corey Crawford the best goalie in the West? Like, I'm honestly not even being, like, sarcastic or condescending right now. Like, I like Corey Crawford fine, but he's not even close to being in my top, like, five, six, seven guys. And he's, I'm looking at the list right now, right? It's like, Miami, Lettman, Jake Allen, Brian Elliott, Devin, Devin, Dukin, Darcy Kemper, like, I guess Peca René. Some people are really high on Peca René, so I guess he might be up there in conversation, right? But it's like, all these guys, Martin Jones, like, the guys in Calgary, like, there's just like, it's not really. Very good. See, I like Martin Jones. Again, I'm not putting him in that discussion at all. I think he has a very real future in the league. I like Varlamov. Beyond that, like, it's just a lot of guys who can just swing wildly, right? It's a lot of guys who can have a great stretch of 10 games and then a really bad stretch of 10 games. And that's, that's to me is the biggest reason. And if you go back into my piece, the biggest endorsement I have of the Kings is like a two-part endorsement. One is they just, they just. they just kill teams five and five. But the other part is, what team is going to have this advantage? Even the teams that can play with them,

if you can't play with a team, you've got to have the goaltending advantage. And if you can't play with a team and you have the goaltending advantage, then you're sitting pretty, right? But no team really has a goaltending advantage over L.A., which is strange because they have very average goaltending. So to me, the whole point of why I think the Kings are one of the very few group

of like certifiable contenders at this stage is, one, I think the division kind of sucks, to be perfectly honest. Two, I don't see any team that matches up quite well with them. I would have said Anaheim matches up well, but they do not look like the team we expected. And basically, because this dumb, horrible playoff format, only one team out of that ridiculous central is going to get a crack at an L.A. team in the Western Conference finals, which is so stupid, by the way, but it's going to be a one-shot deal for L.A. They could very well, assuming this season replicates itself over the second half,

and we kind of see what we've seen already. LA is going to walk to the Western Conference final, and they're going to have one really tough series before they get to the Stanley Cup. And that, to me, that's a pretty good scenario. They're not, though. Okay, here's the thing. This is what people need to keep in mind when they talk about the current playoff structure. Like, if the playoffs started right now, the Kings would play the Blackhawks in the first round.

Okay, so that's a fair point. So it's not a guarantee. No, you're right. That's probably their toughest matchup. It's not a guarantee. That's a fair point. I just don't understand how someone can look at that, for example. I understand this is like an extreme year and scenario, but it's like that's a pretty big

flying though. I mean, if you have Chicago, L.A. in the first round and one of those teams is going to be out after that point. And it very well may not wind up playing out that way. Like Minnesota or Nashville might wind up playing L.A. but like L.A. sort of would be incentivized not to win the Pacific because they'd be much better off playing the third team in their own division. Yeah, well, that's not happening. They've got like a 15 point lead on freaking Edmonton or which is by the way, hilarious. Edmonton is like legitimately in the playoff race.

Well, Edmonton, Calgary and Arizona are tied for third in the Pacific right now and the Canucks, but they've played way more games and have the worst winning percentage in the league. And yeah, the Pacific is amazing. So I semi, that's a really good thing. I'm glad you brought it up, though. I didn't have to hear it from 3,000 people that you can draw, I guess, out of the division in round one because of the way the wild cards work. But even still, that whole situation in general grates at me. And I should point out, though, that's not necessarily clear cut. We could theoretically, it's probably grading pretty well on the probability scale, but you could, I guess,

theoretically still get a four on four. That's probably not going to happen, though. So, yeah, I don't know. I still look at it from L.A.'s perspective, and they probably would have, is it fair to say they would have the easiest road of any team in the West? Yeah, I think so.

Okay. So I'm half okay. I'm half okay. Because they're going to play, they're going to play at least one. Yeah. Pacific Division team, at least one, if not too. Well, if they make it past the Blackhawks.

The Blackhawks are not finishing fifth. Yeah, well, yeah, I'll fourth right now. We'll see how it plays out. I mean, the central teams could very realistically beat up on themselves and who knows what's going to happen there. But, all right, one final thing on the Kings, and then we'll wrap this up. And we should talk a little bit about Drew Dowdy

because recently I noticed this kind of dialogue as they were making their way through the East, and there were people sort of insinuating that the reason Drew Dowdy hasn't want to Norris yet is because he plays out West, and they were kind of like making jokes about how people out East are going to finally realize you know, the player Drew Dowdy is. And I think that's like, it's a pretty silly way to view it,

just because, like, who out there doesn't realize that Drew Dowdy's one of the best players in the world and is remarkably good at hockey? Like, he's like the perfect defenseman. Pretty much everything he does is remarkably slick and effective and efficient. And like, the issue for him is that Eric Carlson isn't really a human. He's either brought here from a different planet or he's a robot and that's not an indictment against Dowdy. It's just the truth of the matter. Yeah. So I would, again, I hate to, I hate to say I completely agree, but I completely agree. I don't, I don't really have anything valuable to add because I watch more West Coast hockey than I do East Coast hockey. That's just, that is a fact. Maybe that's not true for everyone in the media,

and I get that. But again, I am very much in the camp that Drew Doughty is one of the three or four best defensemen in the world. My question is this. The discussion is not, is he one of the best defensemen in the world? The discussion from them is he deserves to have won a Norris or ratty and should win more going forward, especially this year. And I'm like, okay, hold on.

In what year should he have won, number one, and two, and more specifically really, number two. How is he going to win it this year from Eric Carl? Like, this is, this Norris trophy race is almost over, barring injury. I don't see how anyone is going to top Eric Carlson. And that's partly because his, the two players who are in his universe, P.K. Subon and Andrew Doughty, like, Dowdy's having a very nice year, but nothing absolutely extraordinary. Same thing for P.K. Subon. And it's like, how are either of those guys going to top someone? Like, Eric Carlson is legitimately in the point scoring race, period. as a defenseman.

We've never really seen that before in the modern NHL. So I don't, he's so, and that's the part I struggle with is it's not, if you want to claim West Coast bias, I'm willing to listen because I'm not going to present that West Coast bias isn't the thing. I just don't think it's applicable here at all. Yeah.

I mean, also it's Drew Dowdy who, you know, played on Team Canada and has made a couple of long playoff runs and I feel like even if people aren't spending every night watching him play, I think they're generally aware of what he's capable of and what he's not as a player. By the way, so the funny thing about this is I said I wrote an article praising the Kings and they go out and give up five goals against freaking Ottawa, who's not good. And then the funny thing about this though is, or the ironic thing I should say is the King's fans are clamoring. Like this is, you know, Drew Dowdy's East Coast tour. Everyone's going to get to see

him now and see how good he is. And Dowdy objectively had his worst game in the season and that Ottawa game. It's like, you can see the conversation, like the tweets per minute were just dropping off emphatically about Dowdy. And I'm like, and the thing is, though, the thing that kills me is like, you know, Ottawa fans are pushing back. Like, that's why no one talks about them. And I'm like, look, we've seen Eric Carlson have that exact game, half a dozen times

a year. We've seen P.K. Subon have that game half a dozen times a year. These defensemen aren't unbelievable every night. Like, I've seen Drew Doughty look really bad. I've seen Eric Carlson look really bad. but the thing is over 82 games they're really good outweighs they're really bad by like I don't know orders of magnitude times infinity so yeah I look true dowdy one of the three or four best defensemen in the world then he will be for the foreseeable future but I don't think he's

winning in Norris this year I hate to break it to everyone in LA yeah and and I love I mean I guess that this is applicable to like more than just this debate in hockey where it's like if you say that one player is really good and and he he's going to win an award. It's like, that doesn't mean that the other guy isn't good. Both guys can be very, very good. Just one guy might be playing a little bit better right now, and there's no shame in that. So I think just keeping that in mind is probably a smart thing to do moving forward. Yeah, I would, I still dream of a day. I can watch those two. Any two of Carlson, Subon, Dowdy, on a pairing in an NHL game. If I could see that once before I'd die,

be pretty happy. All right, man. Let's, uh, let's get out of here. We made it to an hour again. So I feel like the people who have been clamoring for for longer podcasts are pretty thrilled about the last two we've done. Yeah, I'm losing my voice. You can legitimately hear me losing my voice. I have a billable hour. It's like 375 an hour. So Dmitri always knows to cut me off after an hour. Yeah. All right. Before we get out of here, let's thank Karen, Barry and Derek Orr and all the other people who have, who we mentioned by name and past shows for their continued support. So thanks to all you guys. And we'll be back in a couple of couple days, so hopefully...

Who is the tentative adoption? We gotta have at least one team. Oh, man, I haven't thought about it at all. What do you think? I'm gonna give it to you right now. I'm gonna give you the team right now. Who is it? Have we done?

We have not done, St. Louis. We haven't. No, I feel like we haven't really talked about them at all this year, honestly. There's nothing to say. They're the most boring. No, we're talking blues Thursday. Okay, cool. So, yeah, you guys can look forward to that, and we'll be back soon.

All right. Hockey PDOCAST, online at HockeyPedocast.com. Subscribe on iTunes, SoundCloud, or follow on Twitter at Dim Filippovich and at Travis Yost.