The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 374: Canada vs. Russia, World Juniors 2011 Rewatch

Episode Date: December 22, 2020

Cam Robinson joins the show to help rewatch the Gold Medal Game from the 2011 World Juniors. We discuss Canada's epic collapse, Russia's thrilling comeback, everything that played into it, and what we've learned from it ten years later. Topics include: The legacy of this game What aged the best What aged the worst The TSN turning point The biggest heat check performance The questions that still remain unanswered The pros and cons of the broadcast Who won the game Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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and joining me is my good buddy Cam Robinson, Cam. What's going on, man? Not too much, Tim. How are you doing? I'm good. I'm excited. It's the holidays. We, uh, hockey's back on the horizon. We've got the World Juniors coming up this week. We've got the NHL season announced after that. And we're going to be doing a, we recently rewatched the game of our own. We watched the 2011 World Junior's gold medal game between Team Canada and Team Russia. And it was quite the game. And I gave you some homework. You watched it yourself. We made a bunch of notes. And we're going to, we're going to go through all the categories and rewatch this one together.

Yeah, it was a nice little amuse-bush for a starved hockey community, and especially for you and I anyways, is kind of a nice little amp up for the world juniors that are taken off here in just a couple days. And then, like you said, the NHL firing up a couple weeks after that. So, yeah, it's been a bit of a struggle here with everything going on, but the normalcy of the world juniors and getting to watch Canada collapse in 2011, that gets the fire burning a little bit too. All right.

Let's just get right into it because you and I are notorious for running really long when we do shows together. So we may as well start. And the first category we're going to do is the legacy of the game or basically how I think about it is kind of like why we chose to do this one, why it's so rewatchable, why it's important in the context of kind of hockey history and what we can learn from it. And so for me, the reason why I picked this one is because I thought it was sort of the perfect kind of appetizer for the world juniors coming up this week because it kind of has, it really captures everything that makes the world juniors so special for me. Right. It has all these like wild swings.

The actual quality of play might not necessarily be the best, especially when you compare it to like even a regular season NHL game. But it has this emotion, this energy, this electric atmosphere and kind of volatile swings in the game. And, you know, it's a gold medal game between Canada and Russia. It's got the epic comeback, which we're going to get into. And it also prominently features some pretty incredible names, both both good and bad. And this is the 10-year anniversary, I believe, of this game coming up. year. And so we've also had the benefit of kind of seeing how a lot of these players actually wound up developing as pros. So we can kind of talk about where we got it wrong, where we got it right in

our evaluations all these years later. So I think we put that all together and it kind of makes it a really interesting thought experiment just because there's so many different angles you can kind of poke and pride with. Yeah, without a doubt. So you know, you mentioned the collapse or the comeback or however we want to look at it. Pardon me. I think it's also the legacy of the game. is just, and we can talk about it a little bit later on, I have some notes on too, is that just kind of the height of the Russian fear, you know, where, where skilled Russian players were falling down draft boards, you know, the KHL was rolling, the MHL was just getting fired up. And it was just this kind of almost Cold War Soviet era fear that we had going across the Atlantic

there too. So I think that this was really prototypical of it as what we saw through the 60, 70s, 80s, and then we had a little microcosm of it in 2011 where it was the Canadians against the Russians and they come back and the defeat and all that going on too. So obviously the legacy of this game is one that holds a lot of emotions for Canadians and for Russians and probably everyone outside of Canada enjoyed watching them get knocked off their pedestal too. Well, and I believe at some point during the game, during the broadcast, they're talking, I forget about which player, but they're talking about sort of that fear for NHL teams of

investing eye draft picks in Russian players just because they're not sure of when they're going to come over without any sort of transfer. even in place. And we're going to save it for the commentary corner section, but certainly I think Pierre Maguire only adds fuel to the fire in terms of that Russian fear element that you were talking about. But yeah, I think it's interesting. Maybe I think it's part of it because it's like the broadcast we watch is, you know, TSN hosts it and they kind of control the coverage of it or sort of the framing of it. And so I remember at the time thinking of this game as what a what a cataclysmic collapsed by Canada. I can't believe they blew that game. Watching it back all these years later and just

seeing the talent Russia had, I think, if anything, it's amazing that Canada had that 3-0 lead in the first place because, you know, you could argue that Russia has the three best players in this game, and they certainly flex their muscles in the third period. But yeah, so for me, it's just the framing of it is so amazing with the benefit of hindsight because it's a total 180 in terms of viewing it initially as a collapse and now as more so of like kind of like natural course running and also just Russia just eventually their talent winning out and then making a special comeback. Yeah, yeah, without a doubt, like you said, it's looking back at those rosters, it's how did Canada even have a three nothing lead, right?

Like that, when you look at them on paper now, it's if you stack those two teams up against each other, it would be, you'd expect a massive blowout for the Russians and it wouldn't, it wouldn't be funny any other way. So, no, it is, I think it's really nice to look back 10 years later. Usually you say for a draft or for assessing players that you want to wait until they're in their mid-20s or getting towards their late 20s to really make those concrete assessments on where you were right and where you were wrong. And so for us, here 10 years out, these guys, you know, a whole host of them are either retired or playing Tier 2 in Europe or something like that. And then, you know, a whole bunch of them are superstars in the NHL.

And the majority of those are playing on the Russian side. I guess another legacy of this game is I didn't know, put this in what age the best or the word. but, you know, the story that came out after Team Russia celebrating so hard after the game that they got kicked off of their team play and had to fly home the next day. And listen, as someone who may have enjoyed a couple adult beverages before I was the legal drinking age myself, I'm not going to, you know, comment on that. They certainly deserved it based on a special game that I'm sure they hold near and dear to their hearts. But I remember that was kind of a funny story at the time. And it certainly kind of looped into the legacy of this game. And also kind

just like the allure of this tournament, right? It's that, it's that energy, it's that emotion that's if channeled correctly leads to this like special. It's kind of like it's its own separate entity, right? Like you can't really compare this tournament to anything else. It kind of has its own sort of special place in sort of the hockey, hockey world. Yeah, it does. And, and, you know, I've spoken to former players who have played in this event too, and they, they echo those sentiments, is that it's unique in itself because, you know, these guys get together, usually it's just for like a quick blip for a training camp and some scrimmages and pre-tournament games. And then when the tournament's over, like everyone's usually getting on flights and heading

back to wherever they're playing and maybe playing the next night or two nights later. And so it's a quick turnaround. But afterwards, especially the teams that win is that that bond is there forever. And, you know, they might end up playing against each other for 10, 15 years in the NHL, never playing on the same teams, but they have that moment where they were together and they took home gold for their nation. And so I forgot about that, that this was the year that the kids got a little too. saucy on the plane and got kicked out. That was hilarious though when that came out because

yeah, you know, we're not going to pass judgment here on some 18, 19 year olds and enjoying some beverages. But yeah, it's, I think that a lot of people, especially Canadians probably, I feel like this is, this is their event and that, you know, the pressures on them and when they win, that's the explosion. But, you know, for a nation like Russia, too, this is a, they, they take their hockey very, very seriously. And so for them to to win that tournament, it's, you could see, right, the Russians screaming into the camera after the game. and just, you know, you can understand what they're saying in Russian, but they were fired up. And I think that's natural.

Well, I believe in this broadcast, they also say that Canada had beaten them during the three previous meetings in the gold medal game, including 2005 when that All-Star team that Canada had basically just steamrolled them and embarrassed them. And so, yeah, there's that element to it as well. Let's get into what age the best then, because actually, I think what age is the worst in this section is going to have more content, but, you know, in the order of, they were going through here, let's do what age is the best. So what kind of stuck out to you as aging the best after all these years?

Yeah, I got a couple, just for fun here, is Eric Good Branson almost ripping Ashton's head off when he scored that two-nothing goal. He jumped on him and gave him the neck wrench and maybe just a little foreshadowing for Good Branson's career, you know, big guy, glue guy, neck wrencher type of player out there. But you could see Ashton get up and his helmet is literally ripped off of off of his head and he just has his look of disbelief like what just happened. I might have just gotten cussed by my teammate. Right.

And then he grabs them again and pulls him back in right by the neck. But I thought that was comical. But I think another one too is kind of Zach Cassian's game, that insane mix of physicality and those buttery soft hands that he have that we saw so much in junior. And you know, he looked like he was going to be the next Todd Bertuzi. And so in this game, I think he showcased that a lot. You know, he didn't get, he wasn't all over the map. He was all over the map early there and kind of fizzled out towards later a game.

But I think it's really awesome to see that he's cleaned up his life and he's found that combination again in Edmonton in recent years. So I think that part of his game is that age best here. Well, and you actually see a lot of those very valuable skills that he puts on display in this game. It's what made, has made him sort of an effective NHL and have this second shelf life where he was like this post hype prospect, right, where like he obviously didn't develop into the just dominant power forward that we thought he was. might have been based on how he looked in junior and when he was drafted, but especially playing

in Edmonton with McDavid where he just earned himself a nice little contract. Like, it's easy to be like, oh, well, if you're going to play with McDavid, you're going to put up points and you're going to make some money and you're going to look better than you actually are. But just in terms of kind of going after the puck, throwing the body around, also filling space. I thought Pierre McGuire did a great job of illustrating. I believe on the first goal, Ryan Ellis scores where Cassian kind of occupies the middle of the ice, which sucks in the defense and allows that cross-seem pass from Shen to Ellis, which is basically like the hockey equivalent of an Alleyoop. And Cassian doesn't even get an assist on the play, I believe, but just his presence on the

ice there. And the defense having to account for him makes him valuable. And he's sort of found a way to kind of replicate that at the NHL level all these years later. Yeah, I had that written down here too, kind of that gravitational pull that he had on the ice for that team is that because he's so big and he did have those soft hands in that skill package that I love that breakdown of that play too because it looks like it's Shen doing a nice kind of pause head fake and selling it to the defenders and then leaving Ellis wide open. But, you know, Pierre was right on that is that it was Cassian driving down the middle there and pulling that coverage and opening up.

And like you said, Alioop, it was just a basically a tap in from the top of the circles for Ellis. And those two, Shen and Ellis were just so amazing in that whole tournament. And, you know, Shen going for the record breaking point totals and everything. So yeah, that was, I think. that was a good story with Cassian. I would say, well, let's take with Ellis then because, you know, he obviously had a remarkable year, a remarkable career, I should say, junior career playing for Team Canada, one of a handful of players, they ran this graphic to medal in three different years. He also, you know, put up these crazy point totals, but you sort of saw his value in this

game in terms of how much they were relying on him and how sort of shook up everyone was where He got hurt there for a little bit in the second period, I believe, and everyone was like, oh, my God. Like, this could change the game here if he's going to miss any significant time. And I remember as this transition happened where he went from this crazy point getter in Major Junior with his size, wondering kind of what his NHL career was going to look like, whether he'd be able to replicate that success, whether he would just be too small to be effective in the league. And obviously now, all these years later, he's a remarkable defenseman. And, you know, he isn't putting up the crazy point totals that he did as a younger player, but is still wildly effective, always has through the roof underlying numbers. He's, I think, often overlooked just because of his kind of stature and also the fact that he's not putting up jaw-dropping totals and playing next to Roman Yossi,

he's going to kind of garner a lot of the attention. But Ellis has been wildly effective. And so all these years he's jades your best just because, especially the sort of stark contrast where you've got like Jared Cow and Eric Goodbrantz. even Dylan Olson and all these guys that represent this past era of hockey where hockey Canada was so slow to adjust and adapt the modern game. And then you've got on the complete polar opposite, you've got Ryan Ellis, which just looks so wildly different to all these other guys, but wound up having such a significantly better career and was on this team an even more valuable player.

Yeah, I think that only adds more credence to just how valuable and how impressive he was as a U-20 player because like he said is that Canada was so slow to get on board with these puck moving skilled defensive men that can play on both sides of the puck versus the big brawny guys that are going to clear the front of the net but but Ellis was so good at that even early on is that he just rose right to the top right a three-year player and then he was the captain and he literally did everything he was stepping up and laying the boom as you know as a small guy he you see players when they're wearing their national jerseys uh they changed their game and i thought it was interesting. They talked about Tyson Barry, too, is that, you know, he didn't play that way in junior,

but he was out there playing defensive, blocking shots, diving to make plays. And we saw it from Ellis, too. And like you said, now we're 10 years out from this event. And now we're just starting to see kind of of Ryan Ellis push the needle offensively in a similar mold that he did in that game and at that age level, too, is, you know, he was on pace for whatever 60 plus points this past year. I think he, you know, was on pace for 60 a couple years before that. And so he still has that gear. It's just he's in a system now that doesn't really allow him to do it on a regular basis. But as far as when you look back at top defensemen for Canada at that event all time, like he's got to be one of the top.

Well, it's interesting that you bring up that system of his in Nashville because that really stuck out to me the way he was used in this game on that power play where he's essentially occupying the Alvetchkin spot where he kind of creeps in and he gets into that shooting position. And for whatever reason, he's always kind of been overlooked in Nashville, right? like they initially had Shea Weber, and then they brought in P.K. Suben, and then now everything kind of funnels through Roman Yosi. And meanwhile, Ryan Ellis's entire time has this absolute weapon of a shot from the point and like kind of this offensive instinct to step in strategically and kind of pick his spots. But he's kind of had to play a different type of game, maybe a more sort of defensively

sound or defensively oriented game to kind of as a chameleon work his way around the players that have been on the blue line with him. And so I wonder if we've kind of seen him fully unleashed or fully used. And you know, at this point, it might never happen. But you kind of watch this and you think, oh, man, like maybe in a different situation, he could have been even more effective as an offensive threat just because he clearly had those elements to his game. No, I'm with you 100% too. And, you know, if you went one pick earlier to Edmonton, like what kind of numbers would we be seeing out of him for his career here too, right? So it is kind of a, and that's what. what you got to look at it with players too is that it's not just what they can bring it's where they're

going how they're going to be developed what kind of systems are going to be put into um it's going to play a major role and and you know at the same time maybe he wouldn't have been as as strong a defender if he did go to a different organization too so his on ice impact is is very very high even if he doesn't get all the glory with with those big minutes those big numbers um what age the best the crowd i mean where it feels like it's been ages since we've seen a live raucous hockey crowd obviously and uh you know hopefully one day we'll be able to see it again when it's safe to do so. But this was a particularly electric atmosphere. And it's in Buffalo, but it may as well have been in Canada because the crowd is pretty

much entirely Team Canada sort of allegiances. And they're losing their minds and they're early going after the goals. Like when Ryan Ellis scores, he's just slamming up against the boards and, you know, the fans are just going crazy. But then when Russia starts scoring, and especially I think theatrically, you've got that goal siren of theirs and the crowd, the combination of that and also in the background, the crowd just being completely sort of stunned and speechless as they're scoring goals and goals and goals and tying it up and then digging the lead. And all of that kind of adds

to that drama from the storytelling perspective of like how much this game shifted on a dive in terms of like just going one way and then all of a sudden it's just an entirely different feel to it. And so I thought what age of the best was just that kind of combination is that Russian goal siren was just like, it was kind of deafening in a way, right? Because it just completely drowned out everything else. Yeah. And like you said,

it just started to chip away at the belief of the crowd that was so amped up early. And they get that 3-0 lead and they're going nuts. And you're right. It's always fun to see when another nation kind of invades the northern U.S. and takes it over. And that was cool to see in Buffalo. And, you know, talking about hopefully we get to see

a situation like that again soon. But this coming World Juniors, it's going to be really interesting because no one's going to have that home waste advantage to get all that energy just racing, coursing through your blood, whether you're playing. But at the same time, you're also not going to have that big deflation that happens. So maybe if the crowd doesn't get taken out of that game because there is no crowd, maybe the Canadians are able to weather the storm a little bit better, but it starts to pile on. You can see it happening. As each goal goes in, the bench starts to get their head start to hang a little bit lower the fans start to lose it the energy starts to get sucked out of the canadian bench too and yeah you're you're absolutely right i think that that aged best because

we we crave seeing a game with with some raucous fans here too but i think it also impacted maybe a little bit of what occurred in that later in that game that's very true um i guess the the final what age the best i have is just that trio of kuznetsov teresanko and panerran you know arguably like the most talented sort of trio they were weren't really necessarily on the ice for large trunks. It felt like they were kind of spreading them out and trying to have at least one of them on the ice at all times. But in the third period, especially with Kuznetsov, it felt like he literally just did not leave the ice at all times. And, you know, I guess in 2005, you've got like a line with Bergeron, Crosby and Corey Perry. And

that's pretty good. I've heard of all three of those guys too. But just in terms of like pure sort of talent that just got channeled at the right time, it was just overwhelming. And Canada really. I mean, they were under-equipped to handle it because, as you see, like, Evgenikos Netsov with a full head of steam out of the rush versus Dylan Olson, that's not great. But it doesn't matter who Canada had, like, even if they had those 2005 guys, like, it still would have been very difficult based on how these guys were playing. And so for me, just those three, like, the stock they had at this time as kind of relative unknowns, even though, you know, obviously Teres-Sanko-Nakos netsov were first-round picks, they still weren't

necessarily consider these like all world can't miss you know top three guys like there's still a certain level of will they pan out will they come over it took a couple of years for for each of these guys to actually come over to the NHL and play and make an impact and so at this time just seeing them dominate like that and then now with a benefit knowing that they turn into NHL superstars um it's pretty crazy that like you know just how far we've come with them in these 10 years yeah without it out especially, you know, looking at Teresanko and Kuznetsov is that they were kind of bit players on the 2010 team for the Russians. And that goes with how Russia usually does things. It's a 19-year-old tournament.

It's a 19-year-old team that they bring. And those are the guys that they play. You know, Teresanko played a little bit more than Kuznetsov the year before. But then, so, you know, we hear about them. Teresanko goes whatever 15, 16 that he went in the NHL draft. But for a lot of people in North America, they'd never really seen them play, right? They're not watching Sibir in the KHL on their weekday morning, you back in 2011, 2010.

So, yeah, to see them up close and personal and to see them, you know, some of those goals like that, that 3-3 goal that Kuznet's off set up. Or maybe that was a 4-3 goal. I can't remember. But whatever was that spinning dish over to Teresanko, he gets. Yeah, yeah, he gets down and buries it. Like, that's literally, like, that's a goal in any league in the world. And you're not going to be able to defend it. And so I think you're absolutely right.

And that kind of leads me into what age worst. Okay. And that is, you know, who was watching this game? What GMs were watching this game or this tournament and thought to themselves like, nah, we don't want to take a flyer on our Tammy Panarin in the sixth or the seventh round. Or, you know, how about after he goes a PPG in the KHL for a couple of years? Like, let's just toss him a UFA deal.

You know, Teresankle begging his coaches and management to sign this kid. It's like, you know, fuck Pro Scouts. Like, listen to your star when he's talking about this. Like, you can go watch the highlights too. It's just that, to me, age the worst. is that how you miss that level of talent assessment on on Jeremy Panarin. Yeah, I don't know if that's what age is the worst. I mean, it's clearly what age the worst,

but I kind of thought it might be an unanswerable question just because I don't really have an answer. Like, I guess, you know, an undersized Russian player at this time, people were still unsold, I guess they weren't sold on him when he was going to come over. But, I mean, think about it this way. So as an 18-year-old, he's got nine points in 20 KHL games, which is top 10 for an 18-year-old in that lead. league. In this season, in the 2010-2011 season, he's got 21 points in 40 games in the KHL. He's playing,

and they've mentioned this on this just dreadful team that went like 13 and 40 or something in the KHL. And like one of their leading scores is Chris Simon and it's a mess of a team. But he's like playing against grown men in a professional league and producing, especially relative to his age bracket. And then goes on and just keeps kind of getting better and better and veteran eventually we see him come over to Chicago in 2015 but it's crazy that it took that long and it's like the combination of him producing in a pro league but also as you said in this tournament and in this game on the biggest stage on a national level against his peers just sticking out and dominating it's crazy to me that there wasn't some director of amateur scouting somewhere that was like

yeah we're going to spend a fourth round pick on this guy like I just don't understand how that happened and how it was so wildly overlooked. And I don't know, I don't know what could have happened there to account for it, but just purely based on his on ice performance at pretty much every level, he certainly warranted at least like taking a long shot fly around him at some point in one of those years. Right. It's almost like they were saying is that they're like, unless these guys are elite, clear elite talent, we're not interested in them.

But, you know, you look at that 2010 draft and, you know, guy like Kirill Kabanoff goes in the third or Maxim Kitsyn in the six. It's like who? I don't know these, you know, like Maxim Chudinoff goes in the seventh of Boston. It's like there's got to be somebody out there like you said who watched, they could have watched just this one game and been like, that's interesting. He can obviously play with high level talent. Oh, look, he put up points as an 18 year old in the KHL.

Like if we look at a draft class right now and there's an 18 year old playing on a terrible team in the KHL and putting up decent points, half point a game or something like that, he's getting drafted. Like, that's, there's just no two ways about it. So it kind of just leads back to that, that peak of that Russian fear where I think a lot of organizations probably just had it right on their board, you know, do not draft Russians. We're not going to waste a pick on them if they're not going to come over. And, you know, we all had to wait forever for Kuznetsoff.

It felt like when that hype and that, that anticipation just growing year after year. Like, when's he going to come? How good is he going to be? But, you know, as we see, he, he, they come. They came over. It's like, it's just a wasted opportunity. Well, think about, I guess there's a, in that kind of natural progression, right?

Like you had, Kiro Kuprizav was a fifth round pick, I believe, in 2015, and now he's finally coming over, and I think Minnesota Wild fans, I think NHL fans in general, should be very excited because I think he's going to just explode

at the NHL level. But then, like, this year, for example, you see him at Kuznetinov, Minnesota takes a chance on him at 37th overall, and I believe trade it up to get that pick to take him because they thought he wouldn't fall further.

And that is that progression. I think once you see it a handful of times in the league, maybe it makes you feel more comfortable and you know clearly nchl teams have for the most part come around on it and it's not as big of an issue anymore but we have sort of seen that progression so you know hopefully that'll continue because we love to see talent in the game regardless of where the players are coming from i think with panarin in this game what stuck out to me though was maybe it was a product of just sort of who he was playing with and his role in the team but he's not even dominating the way he dominates

today in the nchel where he just has the puck on a string and he's carrying it all around the ice and sort of creating. He was kind of more of a bit player in this regard, right, where he was just sort of going to the open spaces and then capitalizing on great passes. And so, if anything, how would you not watch that and be like, oh, this guy can clearly, as you said, play with good players. So let's just see if he can produce, once we bring him up to play with even better players in the NHL. Like, it seems like a very logical opinion to have. Exactly, right? That speaks to a player's intelligence when they can, if they're not as skilled as the ones around them, and at that time, Panarin wasn't as skilled as Teresanko or Kuznet's off, but he was able to find those

soft areas of the ice. He was able to give and go with them and to play with them and read off of them. And that's just an IQ thing. And then just going back just a half second there is too, is that you're right. I think that there still is some fear with Russian players. You know, we heard the rumor that Vassili Pod Colson was offered a five-year extension on his KHL deal moments before the draft. Recognized employees with Customink. Show customer appreciation with Customink. Outfit your teams with Customers. Easily add your logo to your favorite products and brands at customink.com. Make custom ink your custom gear partner with great customer service, quality products,

and all in pricing, along with personalized help when you need it, and an easy-to-use website when you don't. All backed by a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Do it all today at custom ink.com. In 2019, and he rejected it. And consequently, his ice time, I think, has been impacted by that. And then now we're looking at a kid, Matt V. Michkoff, who's going to be top two anyways in in 2023.

He just signed an extension that's going to keep him with Scott in the KHL until he's 21. So in a couple of years, there's going to be a team that's going to have a big decision to make is that, you know, are we going to draft this kid who should be in the NHL tomorrow and wait three years on them right now? Are we going to take someone who's in North America, Sweden or Finland, who we're going to be able to plug and play next season or the year after? So I think that's still going to play a bit of a role here. but like you're saying, we're slowly coming out of it.

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All right, what age the worst? So I had Panarin going on drafted on my list. Just guess, like, Jared Cowan and Eric had Brom Branson. So Cowan goes ninth overall in 2009. Good Branson goes third overall in 2010. You see it in this game where the red flags of what their NHL careers will wind up looking like, right? So on the first goal, Jared Cowan is just completely lost in terms of where the puck is.

He just has no sort of positional, situational awareness in his own zone. And he's kind of looking around, tries puck chasing, kind of doesn't know where to stand. and all of a sudden the puck's in the back of his net after a weird bounce. On the fourth goal, I believe, where Russia goes up, Good Branson gets the puck in his own end up against the boards and, like, just completely butchers. It misplays that the puck bounces on him. Russia winds up retrieving it, they do a cycle,

and then eventually Panarin scores, and it all could have been avoided if he had just had any sort of ability to do anything with a puck. And those are sort of the red flags of, like, the trademarks of these sort of, quote-unquote, defensive defensemen from a past era where it's just, like, treating the puck like a grenade, basically being big. I think Branson takes like a dumb boarding penalty in this game that was just

so unnecessary. The puck was already kind of gone and it's like I'm all for for physicality and for toughness and I do think it has a place and even in today's game. But it needs to be functional. I mean, if the puck is gone and you're just because you're big and strong, you're going to be like, oh, I'm going to be a bully right now. It's like that stuff's not effective. Like players aren't going to be like, oh, no, he hit me last time. So now I'm going to stay away. It's like, that's not how this works. And people thought it was at the time. And so that That's why these two guys were both top 10 picks and were prominently featured on Team Canada. And yeah, it did not work out well for either guy at that HL level.

It did not. And that style of play really hasn't been effective in decades and decades before this event even, too. It's like you said, is that cross-checking a guy outside of the play and, you know, sure, yeah, he might have himself a bruise on his lower back, but he's still going to go at you next play. And he's going to hope you do it again because they're going to get two minutes on the power play too. and then that's where they're going to cash in. And so watching Good Branson, his whole NHL career has been about that is that this misplaced aggression is that when you need him to step up and lay an open ice hit or to clean up something on the boards there,

is that's when he goes soft. And then all of a sudden he throws this, you know, a stiff right or a cheap shot cross check in front of the net and it leads to a penalty against. And so I think you're right is that, again, we talked about peak of the Russian fear is like, I don't think this was peak of the giant slow moving defensemen in the modern era. it's it is a nice kind of snapshot of the disparity between the talent that they could have brought and that the you know the world was producing at the time and the still what was in demand and that is you know are you six foot three 200 plus pounds and you can clear that front of the net okay you've you know you're going to have a home on this on this Canadian blue line and obviously

you're going to have your name called early in NHL drafts too and now we're starting to see that go kind of go away the dinosaur which is which is good to see is that skill trumps all. And again, this game is kind of just part and parcel of that exact lesson that the world has had to learn is that skill will prevail on most nights. Skill will prevail. Yeah, I had a couple notes on terms of their NHL resume, Saccow, and in his final pro year in 1516 with the Sends, 42.1 on ice shot share at 515, 43.2, expected goals. Eric Good Branson, the only year he had a positive on ice goal differential at 515 was 2015-16, where the Panthers outscore teams 30.

26 to 35. And funny enough, that was the year that, you know, Jim Benning saw that. And I was like, well, this is a great player. So I'm going to flip Jared McCann a second and a fourth for him. So, yeah, it's, you know, very cautionary tales. Another cautionary tale I've got here, Mark Vizantine. Oh my. So in the lead into this game, the flash a graphic that says he stopped 74 of 77 shots leading into this game in the tournament. I believe he stops the first like 17 or 18 shots of this game. They're like flashing to little kids holding signs that say Vizant time. It got me thinking how, you know, if he had, if his career had panned out, we could have called it the Vizna trophy instead. I mean, there's, there's so many great plays on words here that we could have gone with Mark Vizantine.

2010, 27th overall pick had strong numbers for like a loaded O HL team and for Team Canada and the juniors, plays one NHL game. He spent the majority of 2016-17 in the ECHL. Then in 2017, 18, he plays one game for a league in Austria that's now called the Bet at Home Ice Hockey League. And then he's retired. In his mid to late 20s, not playing hockey anymore. And yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy because, you know, goalies obviously are very unpredictable, especially I feel like with Team Canada goalies,

it's very all over the place in terms of who's going to play that role for them and how their careers are going to wind up turning out. It's usually a goalie from a really good OHL team or something like. that. But yeah, it was a Byzantine's career, certainly, I think when we're doing Apex Mountain, like, this was where he was professionally at an all-time Apex, and it was basically downhill after this tournament. Yeah, he's, he's, we're going to talk about him at the Apex Mountain for sure, as I'm with you there, too. Yeah, a lot of things went wrong for that to fall apart. And I'm sure that wasn't what led to his career ending, you know, such a short time later or not having any

success at the NHL level, but, but this was definitely a peak performance by him. all right here's a great one um so Tyson berry makes a great defensive play to knock the puck off because net's off stick in the first period and it was like he doesn't take a penalty he kind of dives and and knocks it off it was a very like Jacob's slaven type play and um gordon miller points out Tyson barry hasn't been on the ice for a goal against in this tournament in the second period ryan rishog does one of those kind of cutaway promos where he's standing in the stands and he's talking about how the coaches have been raving about Tyson barry how he's completely changed the style of play, how he's so defensively responsible.

And, you know, they're kind of joking like, ha ha, he doesn't usually play this way with his club team. We'll see if that carries over. And all these years, I can definitely say with certain more that it did not carry over. It did not. And that's, I was, you know, lending to it earlier when guys put on the national jersey is that they go all out on both sides of the puck if they can. And so that, that Tyson-Berry play, that's what kind of brought that up for me,

is that we've, I don't know if we've ever seen him make a play like that again. And he could, he could do it, right? He's got the speed and you just got to have the desire. I've always thought that for players to play strong defense is that you need to be smart, you need to be hardworking. And then if you can, if you have those two things, that anyone can play strong defense. So it's kind of a knock on players who don't because it's either you're not smart or you're not working hard. And so for Tyson-Berry, I think it's the latter of those two elements too.

And it is kind of fun to see when these guys do lay out and you, look back and then you see where their careers went and you know compared to a Ryan Ellis who everybody kind of labeled as a as an all offense guy too in junior but you see him play just everything and be you know skating like he's six foot six and 240 but also bringing that offensive game and then Tyson Barry trying to back that up to but where their careers went after that point just drastically different do you have any other what age the worst uh no that's all I got for age the worst all right let's go to the TSN turning point here then for a game that was on TSN so um I mean, clearly, I think the, you know, the two goals, 13 seconds apart or whatever in the third period, you could point to that.

I'll actually go a bit before that because halfway through the second period or so, I guess Canada goes up 3-0 on Braden Chen's goal. Russia makes the goalie switch, right? They bring in Igor Bobkov. And literally in the next shift, he makes this ridiculous save on Marcus Flino, who has a wide open tap-in on the side of the net. And then the puck kind of goes around to the point. there's a point shot. Zach Cassian tips it. It goes off the post.

The goal light goes on. People think Canada went up for nothing. They have this sustained pressure. And then it kind of like, the puck goes out of player or something. It goes to a TV timeout. And that was basically the last like sustained, kind of bout of puck possession

and actual offense that Canada had for essentially this entire game after that point. And it felt like, you know, if they go up there for nothing, you could certainly make the case. Like this game just kind of gets out of hand and the lead. becomes insurmountable.

But instead, it stays at 3-0, and eventually we know how it winds up turning out. So I would argue that the turning point actually came even before that third period, because there was certainly like a moment of, where it was kind of in the balance of potentially just getting completely out of hand for Russia, and they kind of stayed in it and kept it at least at a manageable three-goal deficit. Yeah, I have that written down as one of them, too. I wrote down, the easy thing to say would be, you know, Panera breaking the shut out and kind of getting that ball rolling.

I have Igor Bob Koff and I think, you know, we can talk about him a little bit here at the biggest heat check performance too. But another one, and you alluded to it earlier, was, you know, that boarding penalty that Good Branson took in the middle of the second period, you know, until that point, Russia, they had basically no sustained offense or creativity. They looked stale. They looked a little overwhelmed by the Canadians and the pressure and the crowd and everything going on. And that power play, while they didn't score on it, it seemed to invigorate them. It woke them up and their next five on five shift, they had some pop. And, you know, you'd see Panarin and Teresanko out there and they're moving and they're making some craftier plays. And you could just start to see the tide was not maybe turning against the Canadians, but it was starting to even out. And that was that misguided aggression by Good Brancing, opening the door for that too.

I don't think that there's in a game, you know, you can really, you can often look back and be like, that was a moment that changed everything. and the goals, the three goals, the quick ones, that obviously was clear to everyone, but sometimes it's little things. It's a missed breakout pass that all of a sudden you're pinched in your zone. And again, maybe the other team doesn't score, but it feeds them life. It gives the bench hope in it.

And I think that that power play that they got off that dumb boarding penalty, I think that really invigorated them. Well, there was another kind of crossroads moment with four minutes left in the second. Teresenko is kind of falling. Marcus Felino awkwardly crashes into him. And Teresanko is just completely like late. flat on the ice and as to get kind of helped off with, you know, he can't have really skate off on his own. And you're like wondering, like, I was at the last we're going to see

of Teresenko in this game. Like, you know, it looked very bleak. And then obviously he comes back and he scores a big goal in the third period and looks like Vlad Teresenko. And certainly, you know, if he hadn't been around for that, if he had been too hurt to continue, you wonder if Russia would have been able to mount that comeback. So yeah, that was another sort of moment there where it kind of looked like this, you know, it's still 3-0. We don't know what's about to happen, but it could have gone in an entirely different direction. Yeah, without a doubt.

And then I think one more final one is that, I don't know if it was a turning point, but I mentioned it earlier too. Is that that setup, like, who's net's off to Teresanko for the 3-3 goal? Like, just holding the puck so calm, the body control and body positioning. It, he reminded me of it throughout the whole game, but that play in particular, that was Yer-Jager stuff where it just, you couldn't take the puck off of us. him and then he makes that gorgeous play. That was kind of, I think, the dagger, even though it was 3-3 at that point, that was kind

of curtains for the Canadians, is that they could see everything is going against them now. And what it signified to, right? Because I think the first goal was kind of this weird balance off the backboards. Then the second one was because that's off just kind of bull rushing the puck to the net and then a rebound goes in. But that one was sort of the encapsulation of like, okay, like, yeah, we're more talented and better than you, and this is me flexing what I can do, and you can't do anything to stop it.

And it felt like that really. And then after that, you see, like, there's certainly much more creativity in their game. They're passing it around. The fourth goal is, like, this kind of giving go from behind the net. And they just, like, the entire sort of tenor of the game shifted, and Russia started playing a much more skill-based game. So, yeah, I think that's a good call.

The biggest heat check. Yeah, I'm going Bobcough. You know, you were talking about there, is that those huge saves that he made coming in cold in a 3-0 game where all the adrenaline is for the other team and the fans and going on there. And he made several big stops on the PK, you know, ice water and the veins type of things. He made another big, big save right after Russia made it 3-2 that, you know, all of a sudden if Canada goes back up 4-2, you know, it might be looking at something, something completely different.

But, you know, he was a wall that that entire time that he was in there. No big rebounds, really calm. And I think that that calming presence also helped change. You know, got the Russians being like, okay, okay. we can do this. Let's just keep him at three and we can come back. And so for me, Bob Koff, he was a beast for them in that one. Well, and you know, we were talking about Ellis and sort of so much of this depends on where you go, right? He goes to the Ducks organization and is kind of, you know, blocked a little bit in net, especially, you know, they have all these goalies ahead of them and eventually like Freddie Anderson and John Gibson.

And he never really gets a sustained look. He's kind of bounced around the HL and ECHO, putting up reasonable numbers along the way. was a third round pick. And, you know, he's been spent the past six years, I believe, in the KHL, the past couple years he's been putting up just ridiculous numbers. And I wouldn't be surprised if we hear from him again, similar to like Miko Koskin or something, for example, it feels like it's kind of that career arc where like as a 31 or 32 year old, maybe Powell Francis sort of like he comes over, some team signs him to a one or two year deal and he becomes like a very interesting name that all of a sudden is on the NHL

radar again. No, I think you're right too. It was, it is interesting to go back and kind of look at his career arc because, you know, I have seen him there playing for Evgangard in Olmsk. And he's been, he's been tremendous now for a few years like you were saying, too. And so Miko Koskin, and he was the one that kind of jumped out to me too, is that that type of player, you know, he's six foot six. He's driving a really good team there for Evangard too.

So it would be fun to see him get another opportunity and come over and maybe, you know, come on with a team that's really lacking in goaltender depth and be, a quick 1A starter for a team. Maybe it would be the new peak performance for a player. Yeah. I got Cody Eakin here. I guess it's a bit of a cheat just because he's on the first line, I guess. He's playing with Brady Shennifer, uh,

Brain Chenna 515. And he doesn't really produce much offensively in this game, but I just thought he was awesome in terms of creating chances. You could argue he was sort of one of the most effective players on the ice out there. And his career arc is fascinating too, right? Like they're talking in this game about how he won the Calder. Cup playing with Hershey in the Capitol's organization the year before as a teenager. He's putting up huge numbers in the WHL. He makes the caps the following years of 20-year-old, and then he kind of

gets caught in the shuffle of that peak like George McPhee freaking out and panic trading. Philip Forsberg, we always think about that as the disastrous trade, but he traded Cody Eakin for 48 games of Mike Ribeiro during that lockout shorten season in 2012-13, and he goes to the stars and then eventually bounces around, plays a role in Vegas. And so Cody, Eakin as well. He was heavily featured in this game and played really well. So I kind of wanted to give him some love. You know who else really stuck out? Dmitri Orlov. It was amazing in this game, I thought, especially creating off the rush. He was, he had the green light in this game. He was allowed to do whatever he wanted and he was creating. Yeah, no, for sure. I think I had Eakin written down there

too, but I didn't know if it was cheating because he was playing on that top line. But he was great, right? He he was the player that he became in the NHL more of a complimentary guy that was getting in there on the forecheck and causing havoc and could play with skilled players and I think that that's what we've seen him from him in the NHL too is when he elevated up the lineup

he can still hang too but Dimitri Orloff like he was their D for the Russians like he was everywhere he was so so good he put up over a point of game in that tournament I believe playing defensively he was there Ryan Ellis basically so yeah I think I think a shout out to Orloff too

again that someone who played very, very prominently, so I'm not sure if it was a depth player stepping up, but just an impressive showing from him anyway. I'm going to give the Bobkov call there. I think that was the right choice. The biggest that guy, I think on Team Canada, there's certainly no shortage of them. Yeah, yeah, there was a few, you know, like I've got a couple written down here, but, you know, Louis LeBlanc, you know, I'm pretty sure he played in the show that next year and then never, never got back there again. And so a classic Habs pick who, you know, they got to get their French Canadians. But the guy I'm going with is Curtis Hamilton. So I think he's that prototypical

20-year-old kid who can play a heavy game, who fills a role for Team Canada. There seems to be one every year except for when there's these all-star teams. And then he basically, we didn't hear from him ever again after that, after that tournament, right? The Brett Leeson Memorial. Exactly. Yes. It's one every season. When I saw Hamilton, I was like, is that Freddie Hamilton? Like, I was like, who the hell is Curtis Hamilton? Like he was playing on the 4-5, I believe, so he wasn't playing a huge role for them, but it was like, what?

Like, so random. Yeah, Louis LeBlanc, Carter Ashton. Carter, yeah, sure is a sweet goal in this game. scores a sweet goal in this game, gets mauled by Eric McCranson after. Yeah, no, he was, I think he was a Tampa pick, and then he went to Toronto, and then now he's kicking around the KHL.

But yeah, I know, Canada certainly has no shortage of them. Was there anyone on the Russian team that, you know, you were in, by, then never wound up either just coming over to the NHL or just kind of just stayed in the KHL and has had a good career, but you're always like, oh, like, man, if only that guy came over. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I don't know if anyone really jumped off the page for me.

You know, what's his name, Goldbev, had a good tournament. But he was someone who I don't think was ever really on the NHL radar. He spent his entire career in Russia, too. So, yeah, I mean, Sergey Kalinin, he, you know, he's got some speed and stuff who played some stuff. But no, I don't think anybody really Bobcough would probably be the guy who I, at 6'4'6 and he had that strong showing there. He actually seemed like a guy. I'm pretty sure I had him on my radar for fantasy after that too. I was like, oh, this guy's big and he can play. Like, that could be something down the line. Yep. How about you?

No, I think you're right. I think, well, actually, I was, I totally forgot that Nikita Zaitsev was on this team. Like, I just never thought about him until he came over to the Leafs all those years later, right? And I was like, oh, this guy kind of just came out of nowhere. He was playing in the KHL, but he was, I guess he was, like, injured for a lot of this tournament. So maybe that's why I didn't remember. And they were talking this game about how he basically didn't play for a large chunk of it and then just stepped up in this game because he kind of had to. But yeah, he was kind of a biggest that guy, even though he obviously now is playing

ridiculous minutes for an Ottawa setterer's team that for some reason is playing him that much. But the most unanswerable questions, we've actually kind of already gotten to a couple of them for me. But in the broadcast, they're talking about, you know, Zytesev and they say, he's used to not playing much because he's playing eight minutes a night for his khl team and i guess it's an answerable question but like when you brought up potkoles in for example and it's still a thing all these years later are a question of like are these prospects

being developed properly because of all the behind-the-scenes politics where maybe they're playing on a loaded team maybe they're playing on a team that just values their veterans more and maybe they like want to make them prove it to know that they're you know going to be loyal for the long haul and actually stay and not bold for the NHL. But it's all it's these young players that are just, it's great to see them playing in a professional league and, and playing against grown men. But when you're playing like six to eight minutes a night, when you're getting yo-yoed around, it's tough to know whether that is the optimal route for a young player to be going

into kind of peak development years. I think that's a terrific question too. And that at this point, I don't know if it is answerable. It's, it's really challenging because like you said, you want to see them playing in a league that gives them competition and will force them to elevate their game to play up to it. But, you know, if you're being healthy scratched, if you're sitting on the bench for entire games like Podkoulson and Rodion Amaroff and some of these guys are doing in the KHL, is that really what you want from them in these formative developmental seasons.

And so that's, I think, it lends credence to that fear of Russia too, right? Is that it is not a developmental league. And you could say the same thing about the Finnish League or the SHL, but when, you know, the cream rises over there. to and they aren't shy to loan players out to the Ols-Vanskin or to move them to a lesser team where they're going to have a bigger role. It seems like in Russia is that they're going to hold on to these players just in case they want to come back at 27 and they still own those rights. Even if they're going to kind of spoil the relationship a little bit by holding them back is that

how much is that going to impact them? And I took note to that too when they're talking about Zytezav is I kind of laughed as that yes, that still happens today is that he's not used to playing these minutes because he doesn't. And then, you know, this year for Pod Colson, it's going to feel like he's playing every minute of every game because he's just so used to sitting on the bench or seeing fourth line action. It's going to be interesting to see this kind of these, these stallions unleashed and pulled off to hitchpost and kind of let to run free. Well, okay, on a related note, another unanswerable question for me is how do we use tournaments like this to evaluate young players, right? Because such a bright light is on them. It's on a national stage. They're playing

against in theory the best players in their age brackets their peers and so you want to see how they respond to that pressure how they respond against tougher competition especially for players that are playing in you know major junior in Canada and it's like all right they're putting up crazy points against very kind of lackluster competition let's see how they do against players who are playing in in pro leagues overseas and so that's certainly interesting but then at the same time, it's like, these are a handful of games. Ultimately, it's probably unfair because a player's performance may very well not be representative of their actual capabilities. They may be changing their game to fill a role on this team, and it might not actually be who they are as a player.

Also, it's tough to know, like, the opportunity, is it actually being handed out as a meritocracy, or are there behind the scenes politics of certain players being favored more than others, not just for Russia, for every team? and so you don't want to put too much stock in a guy who's just getting the jetback placed on his back and he's playing all these minutes on the top line but he might not actually be deserving whereas a very talented player is stuck on the fourth line or as the seventh defenseman and so you can't properly gauge how good they are so i understand why we put a lot of stock into this tournament but in terms of like developing in terms of developing opinions on these players

and sort of using it as a puzzle piece for all of the other samples of games and data we have on them how do we sort of weigh that and value that compared to everything else? Yeah, that's a terrific question, one that's very, very layered. And, you know, there's, it's a perfect litmus test, I think, for talent evaluators is this event every year. Is that, you know, I was just chirping 31 GMs for not, for not taking note of Artemianian, but at the same time is that if you put too much stock into this event, you're likely to lead yourself down a rabbit hole that you don't want to go to. So, you know, here in Vancouver in the market, Oll U. Levy, right?

tremendous 17-year-old tournament for the Finns. He was so good, but, you know, that was the team with Puli Arvi and Aho and Linae, and they were all kids and they were just running rough shot, right? And so Jim Benning went to that tournament and he saw Yulev and he said, hey, there's my top pairing defenseman. You need to take the whole picture. It's like you said, we're looking at five to seven games in the middle of the season where you could get hot, you could be cold, you could be, you know, not getting the deployment

needed, you could be battling an injury, any number of things can happen that will impact your play there. So there's this old adage from, from smart people anyways is that a world juniors or an Ivan Holinker or U-18s, it shouldn't bring a player stock down, but it can raise a player's stock. So when you get this, this information from it, it's like, yeah, like look at what a kid like Braden Shen did at that event. Like that's, that's telling you something that this guy's going to be good or,

you know, Alexis Lafranier in his draft year, right? Like we, he didn't put up as the year before. He didn't put up the big numbers. and then you see, you know, the rolls elevated, the points are there. This is what we have. The same thing you can look at it, Quentin Byfield, in his draft year, he's playing as the 13th forward. He's not put up the points. That's not telling the whole story, right? So I think that it is that you can glean some information.

You can take some information from this event because, like you said, it's high pressure. You want to know how kids and players are going to react when they're under that type of limelight. But at the same time is that if you're going to write things, chisel things in stone afterwards, is that when I think you're going to paint yourself into a corner. All right. On a related note, another unanswerable question is, you know, we were talking how Russia usually views this tournament as kind of like 19-year-old players. I think they noted that Kuznetsov was the only one who was eligible to play the following year for this team. For Canada, did they actually bring and use their best players? Like, I think, like, the selection process for Team Canada has always been a hot topic, right? Like, we debate it. And you often see, like, very, very talented players sometimes or kind of like ostracized or just like not. included for whatever reason you're like huh that's kind of weird and you know with this team like there's good players obviously throughout the lineup but at the same time you look at it and it's like

wow was this was this really the best Canada had to offer in this given year like that seems dubious but at the same time we do have the benefit of knowing how their careers wind up turning out right so you kind of have to evaluate it as like what were the conversations back in 2010 like in terms of players that were being left offers players are being included yeah It's a really good question too. As I quickly scroll through some CHL stats to see who didn't make the team that year. And, you know, a kid like Mark Stone jumps out there who played on it for the next year and scored all those big, big goals for the Canadians. But he was left off after putting up over 100 points in 2010, 2011.

So it's going to be debated every year, especially with a team like Canada, right? Is that where they could put together two teams and you could do an A team, B team. And that B team could probably challenge for a medal. or you could split them up and go even Stephen and both teams could go for gold sort of thing. And so there's always going to be guys that are going to be left behind. There's always going to be the arguments to debates over it too is that I think that when you're building a team, you're not always taking the most skilled players, right? And so at this time, they were looking for building that rule where you have your heavy

fourth line. You have your shutdown third line. You've got your two scoring lines. And then on the blue line, you want big, you want strong. And maybe you slide in a Ryan Ellis to move the puck. And I think that's changed a little bit now where, the team building process is three scoring lines and a shutdown line. Or, you know, your shutdown line can still score. And you want puck movers on the back end. Maybe you're going to have one one monster

that you're going to slide out there to clear the front of the net on a PK sort of thing. But I think the creation, the chemistry of a team has, has, is always evolving. And that's what you want to see too. But I think at this point in time, you could definitely argue that the best players weren't necessarily there. Well, I think they did themselves a disservice too, because you look at it and it's like their one strength was kind of talent down the middle, right? They had Braden Chen as their one C. They had Ryan Johansson as their two C. They had Casey Sazicus as their fourth center.

And then I think in that pursuit of building a team, they're like, all right, Sean Couturey is our third line center. In theory, how many forwards did they actually have that were better than Sean Couturee even at the time based on his profile and how he was producing in the queue? Like, you could argue that he would have been better suited, just getting him more minutes and playing them in the top six on the wing and trying to front load your lines, especially against a Russian team that wasn't particularly deep and just basically had three offensive talents up top and they were just kind of rolling those guys. So stuff like that.

And it's a kind of a good debate to have in terms of, you know, you want everyone to sort of fill into that natural spot positionally. But sometimes if you're, you know, flush with talent at a certain position, maybe asking guys to play a different role just to get them more usage and more exposure might be the better way to go. Yeah, and I think that speaks to how highly regarded Sean Couture was at the time. You know, he was their only draft eligible player, 17, maybe he just turned 18 for that tournament.

But he was playing in Drummondville there, and he was pegged to be, you know, the first overall pick in 2011. And he was talked about that going back a few years too. So I think that's why he was even on that team. But I think you're absolutely right, is that when you start loading up these squads that are basically, you know, future all-star teams

or you hope they are anyway, is that you need to ask players to move around the lineup. You know, Joe Sackick played in the wing during the Olympics. Kirby Doc's going to do it this year, captain in Canada. Like, he's not even going to play the middle of the ice. He's the center in the NHL right now. So I think that hopefully we're learning from that and that you, like you said, it's the chemistry of a team.

You need to build and find the blocks that fit together well enough that you can catch heat and ride to glory in a quick two-week tournament. Doc at Eddie's commentary corner. Gordon Miller is like iconic on these games right like I personally just grew up listening to Gordon Miller at call Big World Junior's games and so like I associate those two so closely I was disappointed that it's not Ray Ferraro doing the color commentary on this game like he is these years and it's instead Pierre McGuire who um wow um let's let's get into it I mean I went back and rewatch during this time off I'm like just

so desperate for hockey content and watching games. I went back and watched the full 2005 final recently, and Pierre McGuire is on that call as well. And he had takes about Ovechkin that would make Don Cherry Blush. Like, it was just crazy. He was, you know, at one point he's like, he's going to need to change his act if he wants to have a long career in the league. And it's like, I think it wound up, you know, doing it his way wound up quite fine for Ovechkin. I don't think you needed to change. And so, you know, he just had these crazy comments. And I think in the second period in this game, Panarin goes down and Gordon Miller says, oh, Artemian panarin fell there. And Pierre Maguire, you can just hear to disgust in his voice. He's like, he dope. There's a difference.

And it's that tone that I think has been such a disservice to the hockey community, right? Like with Don Cherries and with the Pierre McGuire's on these national broadcasts where you're perpetuating that thinly veiled xenophobia. And, you know, you spoke about the Russian fear. I think contractually, it was very fair to wonder whether players would come over. And as an asset, if you're investing in them, you need to know that you're going to get something from them down the road. I think evaluating them as actual players and talents is where I have such a massive issue with stuff like that, where you can just kind of tell that there is that complete sort of, oh, this player looks and plays different. And so that's bad. And that's not the Canadian way.

That's not the North American way. And I just hate stuff like that. I have no time for it. I've been fighting against it for years and years, and I will continue to do so. And just watching this game, it's very sort of eye-opening how Pierre McGuire is speaking about some of the Russian players. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it would be cool to have seen, because I think they mentioned this was the first year that in Russia, it was the game was played on their number one network. And it was the overnight game.

So how that game would have been the framing of it would have been from the Russian side of things, right? to get a look through those, a lens like that versus the TSN all Canadian network sort of thing where we get a Peter McGuire who is going to be so slanted in one direction. I picked up on that too. I had a little quick note about that. But Aaron did dive, you know, in the middle of second three. I know. If a Canadian player falls, there's no way he's going to be calling him out for that.

Exactly. And that's what I was going to say is that if it was the other way around, you know, he probably would have had no comment. It would just wouldn't have been anything. Oh, that's a crafty, crafty play drawing a penalty. Like, look, yeah, that's gamesmanship. It's like, come, come, right. Exactly. So, yeah, I think we've come, unfortunately, we've, we've come to, we've just become accustomed to that from, from guys like Milbury and from Cherry and from Pierre McGuire, is that, that, that xenophobia is,

it's been around for a long time and it's unacceptable. And it's, you know, just because a player looks different or plays differently is that, that doesn't make one better than the other. And that's, it's almost like an insecurity that Canada, the Canadian way, it's the only way, and it's the best way. And that's, I picked up on that a little bit too, which is, which is disappointing for sure. Ray Ferraro is far superior in my regard. Yeah. And it's a shame because I think he has elements in this broadcast where, like I said, he's talking about Zyte's usage with his KHL team.

And I was like, oh, that was a, that was a, we joke about how Pierre McGuire shouts out where this player played when he was a 13-year-old. But that's actually relevant information for this example, right? he breaks down Canada's tactics on that first goal, how Cassian's filling space and how they get the puck set up cross-ice for the Ellis goal. And it's like, oh, this is actual like useful X's and O's breakdown stuff that I want to hear from my commentator. He's in the second period, he's warning. He's like, Canada's changed the way they're playing. They're not aggressive enough.

Like, this is dangerous for them. And the entire time, he's saying that. And it winds up being correct. And it was like, yeah, that was a good piece of relevant information that he shared with the viewer back at home. and I'd love to see a lot more of that and a lot less of this player's Russian, therefore, I don't like the way he's playing. Yeah, you're absolutely right because it's true. McGuire gets a lot of hate for all his silly anecdotes and just the information that is needless

when he talks about some kid's roommate when they were playing at prep school when they were 15. But he does have that just encyclopedia brain where he has all those tidbits and knowledge in there. And like you said, he's obviously got a good mind for the game where he can break down plays and he can see what happened and why they happen. And that's useful information. But it's just how the whole thing is packaged and produced to the audience is that's where we get into trouble. He did have another one where he called it too is that, you know, at the end there, this is the greatest collapse in the history of the world juniors. And, you know, I'm old enough to remember Canada losing to Kazakhstan in 1998 and getting an eighth place finish, mostly because a local kid from where that where I grew up in Comox there, Brett McLean, he was on that team.

And he used to come skate with us. and he was like our hero when we were kids, and he was on that team, unfortunately. But, you know, McGuire nailed that one. That was the greatest collapse in the history of the world juniors. Yeah, yes, it was. And it should be framed that way, not, although I also framed as a great comeback by Russia,

because it certainly was. Apex Mountain, this is a tricky one because it's a game involving a bunch of teenagers, so it's kind of sad to be like, all right, this was as good as it got for them. But it is a harsh reality, and especially with the way this. team Canada. Team was constructed.

There's a number of players that you could very fairly argue. It was all downhill professionally after this point. You know, we talked about, I think Vizantine is like the peak example because he never even really made it to the NHL as a first round pick. I would lump in, you know, Cowan, at least Goodbranson has had an extended career and has stayed in the league and teams for whatever reason seem to keep acquiring him. But, yeah, with guys like Cowan and Dylan Olson, they were just like out of the league so quickly, and very quickly it was apparent like we're not NHL caliber players.

It's, uh, you could, you could argue their stock as kind of hockey assets was as an all time high at this point because they were representing their country and they were first round picks and they were producing at the lower levels. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, we talked about that at length already too. And it's the same. We've hit on basically all I had to say about that is Byzantine for me. I think that this tournament was the high watermark, you know, higher than going 27th overall,

which is a great kind of feather in your cap. But to steal the starters gig and then to come into the gold medal game, riding high with like a 960 say percentage. And like you said, to up three nothing, stop and everything. And then to lose like that, you know, that's Apex Mountain. And maybe the lowest low in his career too, right, all in all in one game. Yes. Yeah, it was.

Well, at least he did bounce back in the sense that like I think he was good in the OHL the following year and was good for Canada again at the World Junior. So it's not like you could kind of point this and be like, okay, after this, he just completely fell apart. certainly in terms of becoming a professional hockey player, it did not work out. Who won the game? I'm very curious to see. Yeah.

Yeah, I got a few things here. I think that fans outside of Canada were probably the big winners of that game. Because like I mentioned earlier, I think that the way that Canada dominates this event is that nobody outside with a Canadian citizenship passport, everyone's rooting against Canada. So the Russians obviously were the big winners and their fans getting to see that game on that number one network watching it overnight. I'm sure the Americans

were all rooting against Canada even though they couldn't get tickets to go to the game and watch it and cheer against them. You know, I think that those were the big winners of it and I also think that maybe we could look at and this one might be a little outside the box is that Team Canada

were the winners of this in that maybe they start to change their approach to team building. So hockey Canada, yeah. Hockey Canada, I should say, yeah, hockey Canada, is that you see what skill can do for you versus those big lumbering players and that, you know, a player like Ryan Ellis who isn't your prototypical top pairing defender for Team Canada has just done over the years now.

And then that was kind of the peak performance was in that tournament and in that game too was playing, look like you was banged up and that you don't need to be six foot three and 220 pounds to play it for this team and to make an impact too. I think that's a really good submission. Mine was Evgenyka's nets off because in the quarterfinals, so if we're just like stretch it back for this tournament, right? In the quarterfinals, they're down 3-1 to Finland with like four minutes left. He basically just like wails the puck into the net twice and then snipes the overtime winner

to get them to the semis. They also wind up coming back to beat Sweden. And then in this game, he just takes over, right? Like in the third period, it felt like the puck was on his stick for 99% of the ice time. like he was just getting it into the offensive zone retrieving it creating flexing his muscles with that spin around pass he had three assists in this period um was the best player on the ice you know i think we talked about how the spin move for that third goal was like creatively and skill-wise like such a embodied what was happening this game but after they score that first goal to make a three-one

literally the next shift he hops over the boards he gets the puck and he just right away just goes full speed at Dylan Olson and overwhelms him and they score just like that and that was that kind of turning point. So just his ability to control this game and be the best player. And ironically enough, you know, like he's never been the biggest burner by any means. But in this game, I think it was aesthetically because of like the skates he was wearing, he just looked so like bulky and lumbering, but he was getting to wherever he wanted on the ice because he kind of had that level of like deception and art art, artful tactic with the puck where defenders just couldn't like, aggressively stay on him.

So they had to kind of be on their heels just to kind of keep up with him. And he was getting to wherever he wanted on the ice and controlling the play. And, you know, you're just, just awesome. I thought he was the best player. And so I thought he won this game. But, you know, that line as a whole, obviously,

it's kind of tough to just isolate him. You kind of have to look at all three of them. Yeah. No, I have Cuisnets off as one of those guys, too, is that, you know, like we mentioned, he's the only 18-year-old on that team, barely able to come back the next year just by a couple of weeks.

I think his birthday. But, you know, that's where I saw that yager, that Mario kind of comparison is that you're right. He wasn't flying around out there. He was just getting anywhere he wanted and then protecting the puck and you just couldn't get away from him. And that's what we saw from those guys in, you know, the early 90s in the clutch and grab era, even when people are hanging off of them, you still couldn't stop him.

And that's kind of the level that Kuznetsoff was playing. I had a note at the very top here to, you know, legacy of the game. What I remember is, you know, I remember Kuznetsoff just swooping and doodling all over the ice and just scaring the shit out of me every time he had the puck, which was basically every time he was on the ice. And he was doing it mostly from the second line too, right? Where the three of them were tossed out there together for chunks of it, especially when the game started to get closer. But you know, for a lot of the time there, he was, he was out there kind of doing it by himself and making things happen and controlling the play and gaining the zone. And so, you know, I think that really kind of

elevated the hype around how good could this player be and how long do we have to wait before he can come to the NHL and start showcasing that. You know, I don't think he's living. up to that, to that hype. And that's probably just because it rose so, so much over those three, four years that we had to wait for him. And because we got to see him just dominate at the world junior sort of thing is that, you know, we had visions of, you know, is this guy going to be a hundred and 120 point player sort of thing. And he's obviously had a terrific career. Great players still. But, you know, we had almost a apex mountain for him. I'm not going to go that far, though. Yeah. Well, I would say his apex mountain is probably, I guess, what, in

2018 when the caps won the cup, like the overtime winner to find. finally beat the penguins and all that. But yeah, you're right. I mean, think about it. Like, after this, he's the only player from this team that comes back. He leads the tournament in scoring the following year. I think he has 13 points in seven games. He takes Rush all the way to the final.

And then we don't really see him for like three years. Like, you hear about him. You see the stats. You watch the highlight videos. We were like, when is this guy going to come over? And then finally, three years later, he comes over and he's playing for the caps. And it's such like an odyssey, like, especially now in 2020, when with top prospects, you're just like, waiting three years.

it's like, I got to see this guy on my NHL team immediately. So it's quite a mind-mendor, especially when you think about a 20-23 class, as you alluded to earlier, and seeing where Winchikov's going to go and how that's going to work out. Yeah, for sure. And nowadays, too, with, I think social media and just how many people are tracking overseas games and stuff, maybe a little more pandemic related to. But you would have just been inundated with Kuznetsov clips if he was doing that in 2020 over in the KHL.

But like he said, we just didn't see him. We just heard. No, he's still doing really well and get excited for when he does eventually come. All right, Ken. Well, we did it. We got through this game. The full ones on YouTube. It's actually like the quality of the broadcast is fantastic.

And I would highly recommend if you're bored out there, go and go and go watch the game or at least watch the highlights. It was a really fun one. There's a lot. Hopefully we got to a lot of the kind of interesting topics, but there's a lot to dissect in this game and we could only get to so much of it. Plug some stuff. Where can people check you out? what are you up to these days and all that good stuff. Yeah, yeah.

So obviously hockey underscore Robinson on Twitter. We've got just a ton of world junior content coming out this week. At Dober Prospects and at E.B. Rinkside. I've been ticking away working on my player point projections for this year, which I've done the last few years, and I'll pick a nice charity organization and split up the money halfway there. So that's always fun. We raised like 600 bucks to save the Amazon rainforest last year, which was amazing.

Yeah, that's what's going on here. I've just been watching a lot of game film, a lot of overseas stuff, and then doing my thing. Awesome, man. Well, enjoy the media cast. It's really easy to do. It only takes a minute of your time. And, yeah, you can just leave the five-star rating. You can actually leave a little.

Yeah, sounds good, but it always a good time. Drop a line. Tell people why you enjoy the show or why you recommend they check it out. And, yeah, it goes a long way towards helping us out. I personally really appreciate it. and it's just a nice thing to do this holiday season. So to all of you out there, happy holidays, stay safe, enjoy the start of the world juniors coming up here. And we're going to be back next week with a couple shows.

We're still going to do a couple more episodes here to round out 2020. And then once we get into the new year and the start of January, we're going to have a lot of preview content to look forward to. So already lining up some great guests and got some great ideas that I, I, can't wait to execute. So thanks for sticking with us. Thanks for listening to the show and business is about to pick up here. We were kind of scrounging around trying to create some content and have some fun without knowing when hockey was going to be back, but hockey is back now. We have a date. We have a plan and so looking forward to it. So happy holidays to everyone out there listening and here's the outro music.

Eocast, Dim Filippovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud. at soundcloud.com slash hockeypedocast.