The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 376: Rebuilding the Senators

Episode Date: December 29, 2020

Hailey Salvian joins the show to deep dive the Ottawa Senators rebuild. We discuss the issues that have plagued them in the past, what they've been up to this offseason, and the questions that need to be answered before they really turn things around. Topics include: The fanbase's Melnyk Fatigue Whether they made the most of their offseason The financial motives for their moves Creating environment to help young players transition Brady Tkachuk's next contract The pursuit of a number 1 center Patiently seeing rebuild all the way through How expensive being a contender can be The recent trades they've made If you're interested in the Blue Wire Hustle program discussed at the top of the show, you can submit your application here: http://bwhustle.com/join Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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haley salvean haley what's going on not a whole lot i'm excited to join you after uh what's been months in months of planning uh that's my bad it's probably both it's probably both i'm excited that we finally got to do this if our dm conversation got leaked it would be be like me saying, you want to do the podcast, then you two weeks later being like, I'm good to do it today. Then me two weeks later being like, what about next week and just doing that for like six months? Yeah, yeah. The gift that I sent you, I think, was pretty accurate.

The Titanic, it's been 84 years. Yeah, yeah. So, okay, today, so we're going to deep dive the senators. You cover the team. Awesome. Here's my intro. We'll get to the actual on-ice play because I do think there's really interesting stuff to parse through even for a team that lost as much as they did last year. But I think this conversation has

to start in one place and it's addressing the elephant in the room and it's the ownership and Eugene Melnick. And here's how I wanted to frame it because I don't want to work through all the individual scandals or stories because I think we could be here all day. I just want to say like I think the senators have from the outside reached this sort of rarefied air occupied by like the Knicks and maybe the Browns before this season where you'd like really believe any story that comes out about them like something gets leaked and you're like all right yeah that checks out i mean it's it's the senators and uh i feel like you know for anyone involved with organization whether it's a fan or a player or someone working for them i imagine there's a certain level of like existential dread almost on a daily basis because you're like

what's the next thing that's going to leak like you're just waiting for the other shoe to drop so as someone who covers the team on a daily basis what's it been like kind of being on that roller coaster ride where i imagine sometimes you go to bed and you're like tomorrow morning might be the day where i wake up then there's a crazy story I've got to cover. I feel like it's kind of keeping you on your toes every single day. Yeah, you know what? I would say that, and because this was my first season,

I guess slash because how long of an all season it's been, it's been about 16 months since I joined the Sun's Beat, but it's really only been one season. And, you know, this was probably one of the more tame years. You know, I wasn't here for, you know, some of the stuff that happened in the 2017 winter class. And, you know, I wasn't here for the big, you know, wholesale of the Sends roster.

So, you know, a lot of the stuff that's happened, I have been able to pick up on from the fan base. Because, you know, there is a lot of fans who, you know, they have a, and I don't even know how to explain it. I've called it a complicated relationship before. And fans are like, it's not complicated. Like, we don't like our owner. And so, you know, I try to keep that, you know, the fans are the ones who can speak on that. You know, we did a fan survey and, you know, I think it was, you know, well over 95% of the fan base said that they didn't have confidence in the ownership of the team. You know, I think that obviously speaks volumes to the trust level.

But, you know, I think this year was a year where there's been a little bit more optimism in the sense that the sense starts. started off the season with, you know, this huge, um, 8 by 8 contract extension for Thomas Shabbat. Um, and that was something that fans were always saying like, you know, yeah, we can draft really great players, but are you going to sign them? And that was the first kind of concrete example of, you know, the senators and Eugene Melnick and Pierre Dorian, you know, saying, we're going to, we're going to spend when it's time. When this rebuild's done, we're not going to spend. We're going to sell everything. And then when it comes time, we're going to start spending. And fans were obviously like, okay, yeah, sure, we'll believe it when we see it.

And so the Shabbat signing, the Colin White signing to a lesser extent was kind of, you know, proof that, okay, you know what, maybe they will. But, you know, it's just fans are lacking a lot of trust in the ownership. I don't think there's a question about that, you know, and I think it's the bigger question to me is, you know, will winning cure all? if this rebuild works, all the past indistgressions, are they gone? Our fans just excited to win a Stanley Cup.

So it's this really weird time where, you know, it's not as bad as it once was. And I think there's some optimism on one side, and there's some fans who I think would forgive and forget if the rebuild kind of works. But I think there's always going to be a side of the fan base, who no matter what happens, it's going to be, you know what, no. Like, I still don't like this.

I think they just kind of crave, like, some normalcy, right? Like, I think recently he, like, Melnick from his personal Twitter account shared this NBC story. And, like, the headline was, like, Senator's owner, like, feels optimism, right? And so I imagine he didn't even read the story. He was just like, all right, this is a good thing for me to share to show people I'm in touch. And then you actually open the story and it's like all of these editorial, like, paragraphs that are just like kind of making fun of the senators in Melnick.

And it's like, why did he share this? And the comments are all, like, sense fans are just. being like, Eugene, please, just shut up. Just go away, stop. And so I think it's just like they just want to cheer for a hockey team that makes them feel like nothing bad is going to happen on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, I think that's probably, you know, a good way to put it. And, you know, I think that's not every single fan.

I mean, I did say that our fan survey showed that most fans didn't really have that much trust in the ownership group. But, you know, I think if you just take a look on Twitter, I think that's probably going to be the most accurate way to take a look at how senators, fans feel about ownership. You know, it's a really, it's not a good relationship. That's an understanding. But, yeah, you know what?

I think fans, like, have a reason to be, you know, it's not jaded, but I think sense fans, you know, have a reason to have, you know, trust issues. Yeah, there's a cynicism for sure, yeah. Yeah, no, and I think, you know, they're allowed to feel that way. Like, it's your hockey team. And if you feel like you've been, you know, treated poorly as a fan, or you feel like the promises that you think you've had,

you know, for the hockey team you've loved since you were growing up, like, you know, you're a sports fan. Like, you're allowed to have those feelings towards the organization that you've loved your whole life. So, you know, I personally, you know, you know with the athletic and trying to do the kind of reporting that we do like i just it's not for me to say um but i totally understand you know why senators fans feel the way that they do um okay so to kind of deep dive this team and get into this conversation um i thought a good

place to start would be i'm gonna i have like a series of kind of bigger picture questions that i think need to be answered um before this team's good and before we figure out how good they can beat. And so we're going to kind of work through them. I think the first one is, do we feel like the team made the most of their offseason? Because clearly, they added a lot of players, right? And especially in the draft, they added a lot of young talent that I think fans have a reason to be excited about. But at the same time, you know, you could argue they enter this offseason, a very unprecedented off season, but one with, you know, a ton of assets. You could argue they had the most sort of assets at their disposal of anyone with the high draft picks, also with the amount

of cap flexibility they had in a league where, you know, that was probably the most important asset you could have at this point where teams are so desperately trying. You can just basically like go to a contender and be like, we want this good player of yours that you can't afford anymore and we're just going to take them now. And add in a first round pick. Exactly. Yeah. For our efforts. And so when you look at it that way, I am left feeling a little bit lukewarm because, you know, they clearly had an agenda of like, let's add NHL players. that are kind of placeholders that they can be in our regular lineup. They won't necessarily embarrass us on day one,

but they're not so good that they're going to block young players down to road. If our young players in camp or to start the season at lower levels prove that they're NH already, we can kind of cast these guys to decide and either relegate them to lower roles or take them out of the lineup or potentially trade them or cut them. And so that's why you have moves like trading a fourth for Austin, and a fifth for Eric at Brants and, you know, a second for Matt Murray, a fourth for Josh Brown. Like they made all of these moves that were like very sort of similar, similar agendas. And so how do we feel about that in terms of the way they approached it?

Because they got better, but I feel like it could have been maybe a little bit more ambitious in terms of the players they were targeting. Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, everything that you just said kind of summarizes it quite nicely. I think that, you know, the Sends wanted to go into this offseason and fill some holes with some veteran players to kind of insulate their young players. But like you said, at the same time, not add someone who's going to block their young players who are going to be, if they're not ready this year, they're going to be ready next year or the year after that, etc. So, you know, and Eric and Branson, he only has one year left on his deal. and that one, there was, you know, one million less than they actually had to pay in real cash.

So it helped them get to the cat floor, but then it also saved them a million dollars in real money spent. And, you know, Matt Murray was one that, you know, they needed to go out and get because of the health issues with Anders Nelson. I believe that he's, last I saw was he, there's no update to his health. You know, he was still having concussion symptoms from the concussion he sustained. back in December. So it's been a year now. And last I saw, I think he might still be in Sweden. So, you know, Matt Murray was a deal that they had to make. And realistically, considering the original asking price for Matt Murray was a first rounder,

they gave up a late second. And Jonathan Gruden, who would have been a fine prospect, but nothing that they weren't going to recoup in the draft where they had 13 picks. Obviously, they traded some of them. but, you know, they kind of recouped, you know, what they lost in terms of the prospect. And now they got what they believe can be a number one goaltender in the National Hockey League again. And, you know, I think what version of Matt Murray the Sends are getting remains to be seen. But I personally really liked the Matt Murray deal.

But in terms of, you know, their offseason as a whole, I really do, and this was something that I was pushing from, you know, the start of the off season was like the senators need to weaponize their cats. Like right when we heard that there was going to be this flat cap and the Sends were at the time, I think they were $22 million under the cap. It was like, you need to leverage this. Like never has there been a time where cap space is so valuable and you have the most of it. Like you are in a position of power in the NHL for probably one of the first times in a while. Like you have all of the leverage to say, Tampa, you need to shed $10 million off the book.

I'll take Tyler Johnson off your hands if you give me second round pick. I know Tyler Johnson had pretty high cap hit and a few extra years left on his deal, which probably wasn't desirable to the senators, considering how many prospects they have coming up in the forward group. But that's just one example. Like there was very, there was a ton of options they could have done. I think, you know, you see what the Detroit Red Wings did with the stall deal. You know, they added a capable defenseman who like,

He's not going to go out and embarrass them. He's not going to win any awards for his defensive efforts. But he's going to go out there. He's going to play. And they got, I believe, a second round pick in return as well. And all they gave was future considerations to help out the team. So that deal to me was like this is what the senator should be doing. But instead they used their assets to bring in capable NHL players.

And, you know, I think they were maybe planning for a bit of, okay, this is a going to be a really long off season. Maybe our prospects actually aren't good. There's not going to be as many prospects ready. So they had to go out and get more capable kind of bottom six pieces. You know, I was pleasantly, like all that being said, you know, I didn't mind the Sends off season. I think, you know, Austin Watson has the potential to be pretty good on the Sends fourth line,

especially if you have, you know, Nick Paul and then you have a, a big center. When you're just thinking of roster configuration, I think, you know, that could be a pretty good, like, high energy checking fourth line for DJ Smith and the Sends. Evgeny Dadanov was a great move. But again, I do wish that the Sends would have weaponized their cap space a little bit better. But at the same time, you know, I was talking to Eric Tashik about this. We did a piece with Alver. We had four. our NHL writers and it was like how we'd run the Sends and DeHashik kind of said you know I would have preferred if the Sends took the money from DADNAV and took somebody from Tampa or Vegas and got

an asset back instead of spending five mil on daddanov spend five mil on Tyler Johnson and get something else in return but at the same time like how much money do you really want to take on in that cap space when you don't know how much Brady Kach is going to cost at the end of the summer. Yeah. I would have loved to see them and be a bit more aggressive. I think the Dadanob one is a good example

of weaponizing the cap space because in like a normal year, you'd think that a player with his offensive resume would have garnered a lot more than five times three, right, or five million for three seasons. And so they were in a position where they're like, even though they probably would have preferred like a two-year deal, for example,

like they could afford to give him that extra third year or five million just because they're one of a few teams they can. And so he's like, all right, yeah, come play for that money. And with the Matt Murray thing, I think there was some, some sticker shock, right? When you see like $25 million for memory, you're like, whoa.

But then you look at the way it's structured and it's like, he's only making $4 million in real dollars next year. There's like no signing bonus money there. Like it's understandable. I think, yeah, they're trying to. It's very backloaded. Yeah, it is. It's very, very backloaded that deal because of the escrow payments and such.

I think they were kind of, you know, another question I have here is like, how do you create an environment for these young players to make that transition into the league, right? As smoothly as possible at least, because I think they're trying to juggle that and tow that fine line where you acknowledge you're going to be bad. You're going to have a lot of young players and have their growing pains. But I think they saw with someone like Colin White, for example, like if you just throw him into the deep end automatically and you're like, hey, we don't have any other centers. So you're just going to play against the best centers in the league on a

nightly basis. That's going to just like crush a young player like that that's probably not ready for that responsibility in that role. And so you don't want to add a bunch of guys like Tyler Johnson and with years on their deal down the road that are going to block other players, but you also do need to give Brady Kachuk a center to play with or a winger like Datenov that can kind of go with him. And so you want to add good players that can help your young players, but you don't want to block them. So it's kind of this very tricky situation of balance to navigate.

Yeah, it's a funny little dance that the Sends have to play. And, you know, at the same time, too, is, you know, while you want your prospects, you want to see what your prospects can do at the NHL level, But at the same time, you're not just handing this guy job. You're not just going to say, okay, you know, Josh Norris, Logan Brown, Alex Formington, here you go, like you're on the roster. Like these players still have to go in in training camp in whatever stint they get and prove that they're capable NHL players and that they're not just drowning on a nightly

basis and getting caved in because that's not good for their development. A lot of this stuff with player development, so much of it comes down to confidence. And, you know, I think we've seen that so many times, specifically with the Sends, too. Nick Paul took about five years. And when he finally got this one-way deal this summer, you know, I spoke to him at the beginning of the season. And, you know, he's technically not a prospect anymore. But, you know, for him, he was like, it was all mental. Like, Nick Paul was always taught, he was in the best shape. He won all the fitness tests. Like, he was, you know, the Iron Man in terms of his fitness. And his. And his. skill level was always there. But in terms of confidence, he just couldn't put it together. And when you're throwing a player in to a difficult situation in the National Hockey League, and they're getting caved in on a nightly basis, that confidence is just gone. So they're gripping the stick too tight.

For a skilled player like Drake Batherson, and this was something that Drake went through too, was, you know, instead of being the offensively gifted player that you are in making plays and reading the ice, you're just thinking, like, don't screw up, don't screw up, just chip it in, just dump it in, like, don't mess up. And that's not a good environment to have your prospects playing, and it's not a good mental headspace.

So there has to be the balance of giving them their NHL time, but not just throwing them in and letting them just sink. And, you know, Drake Batherson was an example of that. You know, last season he was penciled in because he had a really great American Hockey League year. They said, you know what, He's got nothing left to prove in the American League. We're going to pencil him in.

He made the team. Was drowning in his first two games and got sent back to the American Hockey League. And some fans were kind of mad about it. Like, just give him a chance. It's like when you see the look on his face on the ice and you see what he's doing, like that's not the Drake Batherson that the sentence drafted. So it's a really funny little dance of, you know, giving them the shot, but not, you know, stalling their development.

And again, it's having players there who can fill those holes, but not blocking them down the road. And as these players start to get into this second and third year, their entry-level contract, some of those conversations maybe get a little bit more tense. You know, Drake Batherson and Logan Brown are going to be in their third year, their ELC, third-year pro. It's kind of a make-or-break year for these guys. But at the same time, if they're not quite ready, like you don't just give up on someone like Logan Brown. because he took three years.

Like you just, it's patience. It's all patience, but it's a really, it's easier said than done for sure. Well, and it's kind of a unique situation because I think in most cases, you know, you've got your top tier prospects and they're kind of going to make it regardless of the situation or at least have a chance to just based on their talent. But then when you have these kind of secondary guys like a Batherson or like a Foremanton or Logan Brown or or what have you, like you want to surround them with talent that help make that transition easier for them. So for this Senators team, they don't really have a lot of

those kind of established like rock solid cornerstones already. Those guys are actually young players in Kachuk and Shabbat for them, right? So it's a very, the volume of young talent that's coming in and the lack of kind of already established infrastructure makes it really, I think, a bit more challenging. And it'll be interesting to see how they navigate that and also like contractually as well, how they navigate. Because I imagine they don't want all of these guys coming up on their second at the exact same time because that puts you in a bit of a bind as well. So whether they stagger that, how that plays into their decisions on who comes up and who plays, there's going to be a lot of sort of mixing and matching there, I think, in the next couple years.

Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, especially when you have guys who haven't fully cracked the NHL until the third year of their deal, like you're not really going to, like, Drake Batherson's not cashing a huge check. Like, we're not going to have a Mitch Marner, William Neelander. Drake Bathurst in a watch. Yeah. You know, Drake Batherson's not signing a deal on the very last day that it can be done to cash in $7 million because he hasn't had a full season in the National Hockey League yet.

And that's just, you know, it's completely different. So I don't see the Sends having, you know, I think that's, you know, been a conversation with some people in, you know, Sends land is like, oh, all these guys are coming up. Like, how could you give Matt Murray so much money when Drake and Logan have deals and Brady? it's like, well, how much do you think Drake and Logan are going to be making this year? Because they're probably not signing, you know, an eight times date. Not right now. Like, I'm not saying they don't have the potential to really cash it and be important pieces to this team. But it's not happening this offseason.

But in terms of what you were saying with, you know, not having established NHL players there, I think Colin White's a great example of what can happen to a young player when they're with an established NHL player because I think it's a grand nichols he always says like the best thing that Mark Stone ever did was cash that check for Colin White because the Colin White that was on the first line with Brady Kachuk and Mark Stone looked a lot different than the Colin White that we kind of saw last season and mind you he did have some injuries and you know he was being put out there as a centerman with you know a rotating cast of bottom six players and That's not a great situation for a young up-and-coming center to be in,

but you can just see how great he looked when he was playing with Mark Stone. Yeah, it's a bit of a difference. Yeah. When they're playing with Mark Stone, like he's an incredible, incredible hockey player. And you could see, you know, Paul and White made a, he got a really big deal. Yeah, he's going to be living off of that Mark Stone money for a while. Yeah.

So having guys like that to make your players best. better that gives them the confidence. It insulates them. It's just that's what they need to strike. And I think that's obviously what the Sends are going to be trying to do. The Sends are trying to do with bringing a dad-knob. Eric. Champions aren't born. They're made. And the secret to make your business reign supreme, Shopify, the all-in-one commerce platform to start, run, and grow your business. Forget the off-season work. Shopify makes it. simple to sell to anyone from anywhere. Whether you're selling warmups or wall hangers, it's time to start selling with Shopify and join the platform simplifying commerce for millions

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steady veteran. He's a hometown guy. He's going to really fill that leadership void on the blue line. But in terms of the forwards, I mean, I think Brady Kachuk's probably going to take. Brady Kachuk, Connor Brown, and Chris Tierney are probably going to be some of the leaders in that forward group. The new NHL season starts on January 13th, which gives us a couple weeks now to get ready for it and make our predictions. If you're looking for a place to wager on things like who you think makes the playoffs this year or who you think is going to win the college, and go to betonline.ag. They're sponsoring today's show, and they're also going the extra mile to make sure you can get in on every possible chance to win this season. From game spreads and totals to team, player, and coaching props, bet online gives you more options to wager than anywhere

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Because I feel like the team, you mentioned with Shabbat and sort of this pressure to prove to the fans that they actually are going to commit to the young players that they draft and develop that eight-by-eight deal they gave Shabbat was a big step in the right direction. I think they're going to feel the pressure and desire to do similarly with Kachuk. I think from Kachuk's perspective, if I were his agent, and if I'm looking at the situation, I go,

So Matthew, his brother, took a bridge deal, right? A three-year deal for $7 million per. Yeah. You know, for Brady, his counting stats for a variety of reasons haven't necessarily reflected how dominant he's actually been as an NHL in his first two years. He's only got like 21 or 22 goals, I believe, per season and under 50 points. And so at the end of the day, that's the stuff that kind of gives you the leverage when you're

bargaining for a new contract in terms of how much you can make. And so if I were him, I'd go, I'm going to play this third year out and assuming he does and just absolutely explode offensively to a whole new level. If he takes a marginal improvement, I'd wait, and I'd probably bet on myself and take a bridge deal and see in three years when I'm like 25 years old,

and I've had a couple 30 goal seasons under my belt what I can get. But I imagine there's going to be a pretty tense battle there. I'm really curious to see how it plays out and how public it gets because, like, the two sides, I think. I mean, at the end of the day, Brady Kachuk also wants to make money and he wants to set himself up.

but at the same time, in terms of like, you know, managing your leverage and sort of getting what you're actually worth, I'm not sure if you can get that next year, especially in this financial climate compared to what he could get three, four years down to line on a new deal. And so the senators, I imagine, won't really love that because it'll be a bit of a PR hit if they announced that they've only signed them for three years. They're going to have to do this dance again in 2024 or whatever. Yeah, well, I mean, I think, and I wrote about this, I think back in March, no, it was September.

I can't even keep track. All the months are the same. I don't know what day it is. Yeah, it's all kind of blended. I wrote about this what feels like a year ago now. But, you know, I think looking at Matthew and what his brother did with his contract is actually

a really good exercise in trying to predict what could happen with Brady and you kind of touched on it all there. But, you know, I think you know, Matthew took a bet on himself and Matthew actually, his first two years, in the league was fairly similar to what Brady did. They were very comparable offensive production

in their first two years of their ELC. I don't know if I have it off the top of my head, but Matthew, I think, scored around 13 goals just under 50 points as a rookie. Then he scored around 25 and 50 in his second year. And Brady's actually quite comparable to that with 22 goals in his first two seasons and 45 points in each year.

but then obviously Matthew took that bet on himself and said no I'm going to play through my third year of my ELC and Matthew had this really you know huge offensive season in the third year of this deal and obviously I think he scored like 35 goals and 75 points I'm just trying to go off by memory from when I wrote this yeah yeah and obviously he signed this pretty significant three times seven bridge deal so if you just look at Matthew's offensive numbers and then Brady's offensive numbers and what math you got. If Brady can have, you know, a big jump in offensive production this year, he's probably going to take a big jump in his pay bracket. But at the same time, like, I could see Brady regardless. Like, if he scores 40 goals next year, it's, you know, it's a 56 game season. So it's probably not going to happen that way.

But let's say Brady has career highs across the board. He hits 30 goals. He hits 50 points. has an amazing, amazing year. I honestly don't know if I see Brady Kachuk signing a eight times eight contract. Like I personally, and I don't know why, I just personally see Brady Kachuk signing a three to four year bridge deal type contract because I think Brady Kachuk has the potential to be a star in the league.

He's probably not, he's not going to be a McDavid with the best skill set and winning Hart trophies and Art Ross trophies. You know, he's not going to be a scoring leader, but I think when it comes to being a power forward, I think Brady Kachuk has the potential to be the best there is. His expected goals is already top of the league. And if he can fine-tune something that lets him actually score all of the shot generation that he's creating for the Sends,

he's going to be a powerhouse in the league. And I think if he bets on himself for that three-year bridge, you're going to see a Brady-Kichuk that has the leverage to get a huge, huge deal in 2024. It might not be what Sends fans want, but, you know, when you're looking out for the player and you're thinking of what the player and their family wants and what

Matthew did, I could see it being pretty similar because I think Matthew was, you know, in one year into this contract, he's already shown that he is the piece in Calgary, I think. You know, he didn't have as many goals in the playoffs, but in one season,

Matthew showed, he's, he's, the player that the blame's kind of everything balances on it's matthew like that's his team now and he did that in one short and season um and there's obviously more competition for who's that centerpiece in calgary and i think brady just has the potential to show everyone exactly what he is if he takes that bridge deal yeah i would if i were advising him i would certainly go that route it's obviously a bit risky because injuries can happen at any time and you never know what the future holds but just based on the

talent. Listen, I'll gladly take the L on this because I was as firmly in the camp in 2018 when the Sends had a decision of whether they should draft fourth or whether they should give up their pick. Oh, you were like Team Zedina? No, I was big time, don't make this pick. Keep your 2019 first because that could be Jack Hughes and this could be a very dangerous situation. And I was, I admit, I wasn't sold on Kachuk as a prospect just because, especially at the fourth overall pick, you know, didn't necessarily have an overwhelming NCAA resume as freshman and I thought maybe. We had eight goals.

Yeah. And maybe I thought, you know, listen, like, I get it. I get the pedigree. I get the name recognition. I get the sort of the package with the size and the skill. But we haven't really seen it in terms of the production. And making that gamble is a bit too risky for me. So I was firmly in the camp of don't draft this player wait until next year.

He's proven me wrong. I'm gladly accepting that. And you know what? I will say, like, I think people that are just looking at just his pure sort of box car counting stats are really doing themselves a disservice here. you mentioned his expected goal production. Like last year at 5-on-5, I've got this written down here. He tied Eichol and point in five-on-five goals.

Only McKinnon and Patcheretti generated more shots. No one generated more high-danger looks at him. So if he bounces up and stops shooting 8.1%, which I think he will, especially as he enters his physical prime here, like the sky's the limit where he could turn into an offensive monster. And the other thing I'll say is context here. Like, think about the situation he was sort of thrust into with all the pressure of the senators making that decision and going, like, we chose this guy,

but now we don't have this 2019 first when we're going to be the worst team in the league. And he lived up to it and actually exceeded expectations. And also, you know, in his rookie year, he plays with Mark Stone a lot. And that's, as you mentioned with Colin White, like a great situation to put a young player into. But halfway through that year, Mark Stone's gone. All of a sudden, he now needs to do the heavy lifting. Then this past year, he's playing with J.G. Pajos having a career season. And then halfway through that, they're like, okay, now you don't get to play with him anymore either because we're trading him.

And so he kind of constantly keeps coming back to him having to do the heavy lifting and be the guy. And so just given the context and given everything involved, like I just think the world of him as a player. And I really do think like it might not be next season. It might be two or three years down the line. But there is a massive offensive explosion coming here. And so I would wait to negotiate that new contract until that explosion happens as opposed to signing right now. right yeah and i think you know with brady too i think when people think of brady a lot of people just say like oh he's a big body he parks in front of the net like that power forward style but i

think if you watch him in practice or you talk to people who've coached him um there's a lot of skill that brady kachuk has that he just hasn't brought into the nchl games yet and i think a lot of that has to do with you know he's a young player and especially under the culture that the Sends are trying to build right now. Like, now's not the time to be high-flying, high-skill Brady could chuck with the Ottawa senators because you're going to make a high-skilled plate in Dish-to-Hoo. Like you said, he kept having these high-skilled centers, getting traded. So, you know, it's just for Brady, I think he's establishing this grit and this

competitiveness and showing this is what I can bring in terms of my effort level on a day-to-day basis and once he kind of carves out that role and gets comfortable within the league and he kind of gets comfortable with his role, then you're going to start seeing these skilled plays come out of Brady because that's certainly something that he has in his toolbox. It's just there's a time and a place and, you know, why would Brady Kachuk go out there and make these high skilled plays when he's 19, 20 years old, just trying to establish himself in the league. Like, he's going out there and he's putting people on notice. that he's there to compete and he's there to play.

But again, like I said, once he establishes himself a little bit more, Brady's smart enough to know, okay, now's the time to switch and, like, bring my skill to the table. I think the way he's been carving out this role for himself within the Sends and the league is really smart because people don't like playing against Brady Kachuk. I asked Matt Murray, his first press conference with the Sends, I said, like, how happy are you to not have to play against Brady anymore? And he's like,

he's so annoying in front of the net. Like, he'll just park there. He drives me nuts. And he actually compared him to Patrick Hornfist and said, you know, I had a lot of practice playing against guys like Brady because Patrick would just camp in front of me and irritate me. And he's in the way all the time. And it's such a pain in the ass to play against. But he's like, I am so glad that Brady is on my team now and now he can, you know, be the guy in front of me bugging me in practice, but now he's on my side instead of bugging me in games. Like, you probably can ask any goalie and they probably don't really like Brady very much. And for a two-year pro to already have established himself in that way and to still have more tools in his toolbox to come, you know, I just, I think he's

an incredible player. And both players, I think they're great. Like the Kachuk brothers, I think think they're great for the game. They just bring so much fun to the league. The league needs more of it. It's just, it's fun. It's fun things to talk about. Like, it's just old school hockey, but with that skill mixed in, like they're kind of, Brady specifically is, he's kind of a unicorn. It's very difficult to try to explain the kind of player he is now and what he can be. Um, because they don't make him like that anymore. That's for sure. No. Um, well, okay, so here's kind of a related question to Kachuk then we've talked about a little bit but next on my list is where does the number one center for this team come from down the line because you know there's a couple

options i think there's still a bit of hope that it's going to be tim stutzlow who they took third overall i think i'm not a draft expert by any means but everything that i've heard and read about him seems like he probably profiles as more of a winger down the road um in which case i think having the third and fifth overall picks in this past draft i really wish they would have taken mark Marco Rossi with one of those picks, I thought the fit would have been natural from being a local guy playing there for the 67s, but also just, I would have loved to see everything we're talking about with Kachuk there. It would have been such an oddball pair of the two of them in terms of the size discrepancy, but the fact that they both kind of play a similar style of just like driving the net and being really difficult and annoying to play against. I think they're going to wind up regretting that one. But I think there's some hope there that, you know, we've seen whether it is a Josh Norris, who, they got in the Carlson trade and was one of the league leaders in HL scoring last year's a 20-year-old or whether it's Shane Pinto who's thriving in the NCAA so far and seems to be getting better with each game and kind of this guy's the limit for him in terms of when he started playing

and sort of how his game's been growing and what the future looks like for him. They have some internal options there in place, but at the same time, you know, you could argue the number one defenseman versus the number one center, how you want to build your team, but there's no arguing that to be a good team in NHL, you need to have that kind of rock star number one center that can do a lot of the heavy lifting and make life easier for everyone that he plays with. And they don't have that right now. And I think that's a big question, a big hurdle.

They're going to need to clear in the next couple years as they kind of go through this rebuild of who that guy is going to be for us that is going to be playing either with Kachuk or carrying his own line, but someone that they can really rely upon to be doing that heavy lifting. Because right now, if you look at it, it's like, you know, we've already talked about Colin and why I think he's kind of proven, unfortunately, that he's not going to be that person in terms of the number one center. And then it's like a lot of veterans that probably will not be on this team, hopefully by the time they're good.

So who that's going to be, I think, is a really big question that needs to be answered. Yeah. And I would say that I don't think that is a question that needs to be answered this year because this is a very transitional year for the Sends where, you know, if Tim Stutzler does play in the NHL this year, which I believe is the plan in terms of, you know, they're at least going to give them a look. They're going to, they've already said they're going to start him on the left wing to acclimate him to the game. They're not going to just do the Colin White thing and throw him in as the number one center in his first year pro.

Or not first year pro, excuse me, the first year of the National Hockey League and North American professional hockey. So, you know, Stutzel's not going to be the number one center yet, but I do believe that he has the tools to become everything that you were saying, the Sends need. I think his playmaking ability, his skill, you know, his skating, he was ranked, you know, 10 out of 10 by Central Scouting. I mean, that's nothing to scoff at. And I think that playmaking ability, that skating is going to make him a really, you know, I think, attractive option to be the Sons number one center. I would say that if you look down the list and kind of just get rid of the veterans who you don't think are going to be there, you know, Artemisimov is not going to, it's not part of the long-term plan. I think Chris Tierney is a great veteran player, but I also, you know, when you start looking down the list and you have Tim Stoetsl, Josh Norris, Shane Pinto, Logan Brown, Chris Tierney is probably not going to be a part of the future past this next contract. I mean, he might even be taken by Seattle. That was something I said would be an intractive option for Seattle if they're looking for just some really steady, reliable centers. Because I think, you know, Chris Tierney has shown that he's a really reliable guy up the middle.

and you're kind of middle as a middle six bottom six option. But, you know, when I think I look at the depth and I see, you know, Shane Pinto is a really great two-way guy. You know, there was a lot of questions around why they made that pick last year when there was like a high-skilled guy like Bobby Brink, Arthur Caliabre on the board. They kind of made a bit of a jump per se for Pinto. but I think, you know, Pinto is going to have a really successful professional career because he can just play in all situations.

He plays on the top power, play the top penalty kill. He's the best face-off guy in the NCAA. He was rookie of the year in his first season, led the number one team in the country and scoring in his rookie season. I just think he's got the whole package. At the National Hockey League level, I could probably see him being like a really just reliable J.G. Pajot-esque third-line. center and then you'll have

either Stutzla Norris Brown is your top six you know one of like a combination of the two of them and then you'll have you know Pinto and whoever's left out of that top six in your bottom six and I mean I think

Logan Brown's probably a guy because of his offensive skill set that he's someone who should probably be in a top six or third line role depending on the roster configuration you know he's a really, really skilled offensive guy who needs to be playing with high-skilled offensive players to finish the plays that he's making.

So I think Logan Brown, you know, let's just hypothetically say in the future you got Tim Stutzla, you know, Josh Norris, Logan Brown, Shane Pinto. That's a pretty good core group of centers. And I understand the Marco Rossi comment too. I was really, really high on Marco Rossi myself. And I'm obviously familiar with Marco because I worked in Oshawa and they beat us in the playoffs when I still worked in Oshawa. And they beat us all the time. So I'm very familiar with Marco Rossi.

I told the head coach Andre Tourney that when we did an interview about Marco and he was like, I don't know how much you know about him. I'm like, oh, I know a lot about your whole team. But, you know, I think Jake Sanderson, you know, he was arguably the. the best defensemen available in that draft. And I know a lot of fans wanted to see the Sends take two forwards, but if you took Stutzla and a Marco Rossi and then you look at that depth of your centers and you're like, yeah, yeah, the Sons don't have a, they don't have a shutdown defenseman

on their roster. They have Shabbat, Willan, Brandstrom. Those are all offensive guys. They have JVD and they have Lassie Thompson who are kind of all around guys. Jake Sanderson is he'll eat you up like you can't get past the kid. And I just think that's going to be really valuable when you're talking about trying to win in the future. Yeah. I think a little way I viewed it was like I'm okay with taking two forwards there because it's a good problem to have to have a lot of center options, especially since not all these guys are going to develop and reach their ceiling.

Although I hope they do obviously. Okay. So you mentioned Sanderson there. Another question I've got here. So they've invested a lot of draft capital in the blue line in the past couple years, right? They spent three firsts, I believe the past three years on Bernard Docker, Lassie Thompson, and Sanderson. They traded up and spent like 59 and 64 to get Tyler Clevin at 44th overall. They got Eric Bransstrom as the kind of the crown jewel of the Mark Stone trade.

And so I guess the question is how do these guys sort of come along and develop and help provide Thomas Shabbat with running mates? especially last year there were games where he was just racking up you know 30 plus minute a night and it was kind of like it became sort of a running joke to just open up the Sends box score that night and just see what ridiculous total he was at and I'm all for playing your young players and that's great that they're sort of giving them the freedom to do that but there does reach a point of sort of diminishing returns where it's like okay when you're playing every single night like this could kind of come back to hurt you or potentially you know could make the players performance drop um and

The other thing is, it's just going to be curious because I think there's a lot of opportunity there. You know, when you were talking earlier about good brands, and I'm all for all the stuff about being great in the room and sort of how he's going to help from a leadership perspective. But when you start talking about him playing on the top air, it's like, yeah, that's, from a performance perspective, that's not ideal. And I think, you know, the NHL death chart on the blue line right now for the senators is a major problem. And I think they're fine with it because this is a transitional year. They're just trying to get through. here and they're going to see where all these guys develop and slot in later. But there are a lot

of questions there because especially we know with young blue liners, we sometimes get sort of tricked because all these young players now are coming into the league and just dominating from day one. But especially at that position, it's really tough to do so. And there is this kind of growing pains or lag periods. And so you can't just expect that, especially a defenseman from the NCAA is going to step in on day one and just dominate the NHL. And so how those guys shape out and how long it takes for them to be NHL contributors, I think is a big question for the senators. Yeah, no, definitely. And I think, you know, Jacob Bernard Docker was, I think, probably expected to go pro this year. And he decided to spend another season at North Dakota in the NCAA. So

he's going to be taking the three years of college hockey. And I think when you look at the Kail McCar route, Quinn Hughes, they took two years at the NCAA level before they jumped to the NHL and they started playing right away. So I think a lot of sense fans may be expected Bernard Docker to go that route. But, you know, obviously, the North Dakota had, did you just compare Bernard Docker to Hughes and McCar? No, I'm talking about like time. Yeah, yeah. I know. I'm just giving you hard time. So I think a lot of people, you know, just looking at, okay, like they'll do two years and go pro. But for Bernard Docker, you know, I think, and I spoke with Brad Barry about this and he said like I think it was just good internal reflection on guys like

JBD and Pinto to say like I could go pro right now because I had a really great season. I had a really great two seasons but there's things that I want to fix and I think I want to do it here and we want to win so they kind of stay in the NCAA and I think with Bernard Docker specifically that surprised some people because they thought that he was going to go pro and at least play in Belleville next year. but I think again all of this just comes down to patience like you said these guys aren't Kail McCarr and Quinn Hughes

like they're not going to play two years of college football or two years of junior two years in Finland and then play in the NHL and be top parent defenseman and win the Calder trophy so I think you know especially with a player

like Lassie Thompson I think this year has kind of shown that he's not as far along in his development as some fans probably would like. I spoke to the general manager with his team over in Liga, and they said, you know, he'll probably need like another year here, maybe a year or two in Belleville before he, like there's just a lot of work to do that's left for Lassie Thompson

specifically before he can jump to the National Hockey League. And I think Bernard Docker is probably a guy who might take a year in Belleville. We've seen with Eric Brandstrom, like it's not a clear path from, you know, okay, yeah, there's this really great player. and look at everything that he can do. He's going to be a national hockey league player right away. Kind of tout as like the next coming of Eric Carlson, like this young, Swedish, high-skilled puck-moving,

you know, great skater, defenseman. And he just couldn't put any of that together at the NHL level, which just indicates that he's not ready. And that's okay. Like, it's not the end of the world. For sure. But, you know, I think a lot of it is just about tempering expectations too. You know, you can't really

A lot of it is like With a lot of these prospects, it's you get excited because you see the pedigree, you see the production at lower levels, and then it's kind of like their stock is almost at an all time high at that point. If you see them fail at an HL level, it really, I think catches a lot of people by surprise because like prospects,

especially casual fans, I think just expect that every single one of their team's favorite prospects is going to wind up being an absolute superstar at that HL level. And that's just unfortunately not the way the league works. It's the best league in the law for a reason. Yeah, it's tough. Like there's a lot you have to do. It's, you know, especially for like just in talking about Branstrum or really any of these players.

Like for Brantstrom, you know, get the puck on your stick in the American Hockey League and you've got a little bit more time. You've got a little bit more space. The NHL level that is gone. Like you're cutting seconds off, like milliseconds off. But that makes the world of difference when you're talking about a young player, trying to make a good offensive player reading what they can do on the ice. You know, a lot of it's just mental. Like, you could be highly skilled, but you've got to figure out the timing.

You've got to figure out how quickly you have to make that play. And, you know, it's, you know, the one little millisecond in your head where you think, okay, let me skate up the ice a little bit longer and then I can make this stretch pass. But then all of a sudden you've got Sidney Crosby or whoever collapsing in on you and you're like, oh, shit. Yeah. Didn't have as much space in time as I. thought and then then you're dumping the puck in the next play because you're like shit i don't want

that to happen again so a lot of it is just getting the feel for the n hl and that that takes time it it really does so all right let's let's let's let's finish this off i've got two more questions they're both unfortunately eugene melnick related i'm sorry to sense fans but i think it's it's relevant for this discussion um when the senators are good again will ownership be willing and able to foot the bill for what that looks like. And the reason I say that is, so I guess it was last year Melnick gave this interview where he said the senators were quote unquote all in on quote unquote a five-year run of unparalleled success. And he promised that they'd be spending to the cap ceiling in 2021 to 2025. Now that I think was pre-pandemic. So I wonder how that changes things.

Like we said at the start, I think fans have a right to be skeptical or jaded or however you want to phrase it and they kind of want to see him prove it. I myself would also not a fan of the team, but I would consider myself as a skeptic because we've seen with some of the moves they've done lately, I think it was really, you mentioned the Good Branson one where it's like, when you see a senator's transaction,

you can often link it to, oh, this player is actually getting paid less than their cap figure would indicate. It was really telling, I think. It was very innocuous, but the most recent transaction they made. where they made an HL swap, where they got a player back

that had already had their signing bonus paid by the predators, so they're basically saving $45,000. It's like, ultimately, it's, it's, that trade, that trade and that player is not going to impact the Senator's outlook fans shouldn't necessarily care, but I think stuff like that is very telling of like what the mandate is for Puridorian

and sort of what they need to do sometimes with some of these moves to save money. And so being a contender in that, HL is very expensive. There's a big price tag that comes to that. If you have good players, they're going to get paid a lot, and you're going to have to foot that bill, right? And I always view it as like,

spending money doesn't necessarily guarantee you're going to be good because we've seen a bunch of teams over the years spent the cap and just overpay and not be good. But if you're not spending a certain amount of money, I think chances are you probably won't be good because there's like a threshold you need to cross to be a contender. And so whether they're going to be willing and able to do that, I think is a big question moving forward.

Yeah, I think so. And I mean, it's tough because we are in a pandemic. And I think, you know, a lot of teams are struggling financially, not just the Ottawa senators. And, you know, I think that, you know, in a more recent interview with Sun Media, Eugene did say that the plan is to spend around to the middle. So the plans are longer to spend all the way to the cap. their internal budget is around $70 million. So that's right around the middle ground of what a lot of teams in the league spend. There's an argument to be made whether or not we've seen any, you know, the last five Stanley Cup champions have spent way tighter to the cap than 10 to 12 million under. So there is, you know, a conversation to be had about can you win the Stanley Cup when you're spending $12 million under the cap ceiling. but you know I think that the Sends have actually done a really good job with this rebuild and you look at some of the pieces that they've brought in I think it's possible I'm a bit more of an

optimist I think that you know Eugene has shown like he didn't he spent a pretty penny on on Shabbat and dad not wasn't cheap either um Colin white got a big deal you know they made a trade and they're paying the key to zaitzev 4.75 million in. Yeah, but the leaves foot the bill on that quite a bit with the signing bonuses, I believe, right? Yeah, but that's still a pretty high cap hit that they're taking on, and they're paying in full for Shbaud. And, you know, obviously, the high priority is to pay Brady Kachuk. So, you know, I think that, you know, this was the plan.

You know, he did say that we're not going to spend a lot of money for the next three years. But then once we get into that window of contention, that's when we're going to open the wallet. So he didn't spend for the three years. He started to open up the wallet. I know that's probably a more optimistic tone than people maybe want to hear. But at the same time, like, instead of waiting for the shoe to drop, why not just wait to see what these players end up earning? So, you know, I'm going to choose to think that they're going to spend to the 70 million budget

because that's technically what they're spending right now. I mean, obviously, what's salary and what's like dead money deals and stuff is very different. But, you know, I think it's possible. And if it's not, then obviously, I'll eat my words and say, like, I should have known. But I think it's, you know, I think it's possible. I love your optimism. You can tell that you haven't been covering the senators for that long. It's been a year.

It's been a year. Like, I'm not as jaded. You know, I just, and what good does it do for anyone for me to sit here and say that the Ottawa senators are never going to win a Stanley Cup because X, Y, what fan wants to hear that? I know that they've been through a lot and I know there's reason to have those negative thoughts, but like as someone who's trying to get people to like read my content

and get excited about the Ottawa senators and read these stories, me saying this team sucks and they're never going to win, what good does that do? Like they've been last in the league. We know that they're not good. That's true. So I choose to side on the more optimistic and positive end and forward looking. because I just think it's why be negative and angry all the time.

It's hockey. Like I know they've been through a lot, but. No, I agree. I think it's fair to ask questions, right? Especially based on the track record. Like, I think like a related one is once this team eventually does get good, will they be able to remain patient and stick with it? Or are they going to quickly try to fast track it?

Because I think the past two times that they sort of had any sort of success was in 2013 and then the following year they traded, or that summer they traded a bunch for Bobby Ryan and try to kind of go all in and push their chips in. And then in 2017, they similarly made the Matt DeShane trade, which they immediately regretted. And so I think there's like lessons to be learned there. I'm very curious to see if they have learned them. And obviously, based on how the past couple years have gone, I think Senators fans would gladly take the team being in a situation where they're good enough to be making those types of moves for players.

So that's obviously a question for further down the road, but something that I think is worth considering about this team's future. Yeah, definitely. All right, well, that's going to be it for today's show. Haley, plug some stuff. Where can people check you out? What are you working on these days and all that good stuff? Yeah, I'm working for the athletic Ottawa.

You can check out all of my son's content at the athletic. I posted all on Twitter. I think my Twitter handle is just Haley underscore Salvean. Yeah, I'm really about it plugging myself. Yeah, I'm on Twitter. I'm at the athletic. That's what we've got going on. So it's just me here.

Apologies for the abrupt ending to the show. In a PDO cast, first we had some technical difficulties towards the end. And the recording for the end of the conversation between Haley and myself got cut so we can use it. So hopefully you enjoyed our conversation. There's one other thing that I wanted to touch on before we put a bow on the set ofers' rebuildables. And I was hoping to get into it with Haley before our conversation ended. but it's more of a question for down the road. And if this senator's team has to face it at some point in the next couple years,

then that means ultimately that things went really well, and it's a good problem to have for them. But it's whether they'll be able to show restraint and patience to see the rebuild through properly once they're actually winning games again and back in the playoff mix. We know that they're not going to be good this coming year, but you'd think that if they play this right a couple years down to road, this is something they're going to have to answer.

and it's, you know, it would apply for pretty much every team that's craving success and has been stuck in a year's long rebuild. But I think it's especially relevant in this case when talking about the Ottawa Senators because we have a recent past to work off over history with them in this regard. And so, you know, based on the way they've operated in the past, I can only imagine that Melnick and the ownership group of the Senators team is going to be salivating of the thought of a quick playoff payday. And even if it means ultimately sort of fast-tracking the process and pushing the chips in and maybe kind of half-hazardly trying to speed up the timeline, even though it might not necessarily be in the best long-term interests of the team.

And the reason why I say that is because the past two times, the senators have really enjoyed any kind of playoff success and had competitive teams where in 2013 and 2017, and the following seasons in both those cases, they traded a bunch of assets for Bobby Ryan and they traded a bunch of assets for Matt Duchesne. And they tried to sort of chase that success they just enjoyed and really consolidated. and obviously both wound up being very short-sighted and misguided and set the franchise back. And so I think that's just something to consider for down the road and keep in mind when you're trying to map out what the next steps are going to look like for this organization once it turns things around. I think there's a lot of reasons to be excited about the future in Ottawa.

And I think we express that in this podcast. They've obviously accumulated a ton of assets over the past two years. They still have a bunch coming down the road. They presumably have a top five pick again in the 2021 draft. they have some second rounders. Their fans deserve something to hold on to and be excited about. I think they've been dealt so many gut punches in the past couple years, having to just watch their awesome players sort of unceremoniously leave

and go on to enjoy playoff success on their new teams. And so after all that, they definitely deserve more. I think ultimately, I'm not sure where I stand with this demon, sort of the outlook and how excited we should be. I'd be a lot more excited if I had any faith in the ownership and the idea that they actually do have. The organization's long-term best interest in mind, you know, they've shown us time and time again that the most important thing for them is cutting costs and saving money, even if it means coming at the expense of the on-ice product. I think money-driven moves like the Mika's Abinajad in a second for Derek Brassard Swap in 2016 would be panned even more and would just be considered one of the worst trades we've seen in some time if they didn't have that miraculous run the following season that kind of salvaged it.

But I think it's sort of the implication of things like that and the moves like that and sort of the motivation behind them to make evaluating Pierre Dorian and the job he's done so much more difficult because, you know, if he's got a mandate to save money, then it's almost like he's getting into a fight kind of with one arm time behind his back. And you don't know how to sort of weigh all those things. But I do think we should still sort of be critical alone because while I do sort of acknowledge that it must be tough having Eugene Malnick is your boss and having to answer to his whims, there's, ultimately only 32 of these jobs now. And so I think it's fair to be critical and to ask a lot of these questions. And, you know, we saw the good and the bad of it and some of the moves they made between the time Haley and I finished recording, which was before Christmas, and the time you'll be listening to it, which is after. And I don't think they necessarily warrant a deep dive by any means because they're not

that consequential. But I do think the two trades the senators made were interesting because they kind of help tell a bigger story of what's going on right now and the way they're operating. And the step-end trade, it was initially a weird one because, because he's got this $6.5 million cap hit, and he doesn't really have much to offer in terms of on ice production anymore at this point. So I think people were initially wondering

why the senators would be the ones giving up a second round pick, even though they have three of them to work with and not the other way around. But then you look a bit closer and you see that he's already had $3 million paid out in signing bonuses by the coyotes, and the senators

are actually only on the hook for a $2 million salary, and so you put two and two together, and it makes a lot of sense why they did it because it's such a classic Melnick move. And so I guess the question is kind of, why? Like, what's the point? What's the plan here? And as Haley and I discussed this, I think the senators, you know, should be weaponizing their unique cap flexibility and taking on these big cap hits that other teams need to get rid of, especially for a player that can still have some value and can still play for them, but just isn't worth what they're making anymore, which is kind of exactly the position Stepan finds himself in at age 30. But to be doing so, they should be the ones getting paid for their troubles and receiving extra assets for facilitating that type of move, not the other way around. And so, what whether Ottawa actually views a player like Stepan as an asset, and that's why they gave up the second for him,

because they think he can help them on the ice and can help their young players along, or because they looked at that contract and said, ooh, this can kind of artificially inflate our cap sheet while actually saving us some money and we're not paying them that much. That's an entirely different conversation, but neither one of them would ultimately be kind of very good justification

for making a type of move like that. I think the second move they made with Tampa Bay, where they essentially afforded them about $3 million in cap flexibility, taking on two veterans on expiring deals in Impact Head and Coburn and being compensated for it with a future second rounder is the type of trade they should have been making all along. I think if they had been doing that and had been sort of leveraging teams and their dire cap situations to get a bunch of these future assets, I'd be a lot higher on the offseason

they had and would have really felt like they had maximized what they had to work with rather than kind of taking a couple steps forward and then taking a couple steps back and still raising all these questions about what their motivations are and how they're going to operate moving forward. So I don't know. I think it's a big discussion and we tried to get into it here. And I think it's certainly something that we'll need to keep an eye on. And I'm sure that we will talk more about down the road. But anyways, we're going to get out of here now. That's going to be it for today's show.

You know, that's going to be it for the PDOCast in 2020. We're going to be back once the calendar flips and we get into January. I hope everyone listening, stay safe and has a happy. Happy New Year. Like it was for everyone, it was a really tough year for the show, too. We kind of had the rug pulled out from under us in March when the season stopped, and we had to take an imposed hiatus until things worked themselves out. You know, I don't really want to get too much into it, but it was a really brutal period

of time for me. I love recording the show. I love talking about hockey. I love everything I do professionally, and so not being able to do it was a really tough pill to swallow, but that's in the past now, and there's a lot to look forward to. We got a new season starting in May January, hopefully. And while it'll still be different, we'll have live hockey to watch and talk about on here. And so I'm really fired up about it.

And we have some big plans for shows previewing the season over the next couple of weeks. So thank you to everyone that's stuck with us through all this time. And hopefully you'll be rewarded for it moving forward. So cheers to everyone and see you all in 2021. Gideotcast with Dim Philipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockeypedeocast.